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你好。
Hi.
我是索拉纳·莱恩。
I'm Solana Pine.
我是《纽约时报》视频部门的总监。
I'm the director of video at The New York Times.
多年来，我的团队制作了大量视频，带您更贴近重大新闻时刻，这些视频由《纽约时报》记者制作，凭借专业能力帮助您理解正在发生的事情。
For years, my team has made videos that bring you closer to big news moments, videos by Times journalists that have the expertise to help you understand what's going on.
现在，我们将这些视频带到《纽约时报》应用的“观看”标签页中。
Now we're bringing those videos to you in the watch tab in The New York Times app.
这是一个专属的视频频道，您可以完全信任其中的内容。
It's a dedicated video feed where you know you can trust what you're seeing.
那里所有的视频都免费向所有人开放。
All the videos there are free for anyone to watch.
您无需成为订阅用户。
You don't have to be a subscriber.
下载《纽约时报》应用程序即可开始观看。
Download The New York Times app to start watching.
来自《纽约时报》，我是娜塔莉·基托埃夫。
From the New York Times, I'm Natalie Kitroef.
这是周日的《每日新闻》。
This is The Daily on Sunday.
如果你现在还不知道谁是巴德·邦尼，那么到下周这个时候，你肯定就会知道了。
If you don't already know who Bad Bunny is, by this time next week, you definitely will.
今晚的格莱美奖上，他获得了六项提名，这已经创造了历史。
At the Grammys tonight, he's up for six awards, and that's already made history.
他是首位同时获得年度专辑、年度歌曲和年度录制三项大奖提名的西班牙语艺术家。
He's the first Spanish language artist up for album, song, and record of the year simultaneously.
但今晚只是他即将迎来的巨大时刻的前奏。
But tonight is really appetizer for the massive moment he's about to have.
一周后的今天，巴德·邦尼将登上音乐界最大的舞台——超级碗中场秀。
One week from today, Bad Bunny headlines the biggest stage in music, the Super Bowl halftime show.
这在任何一年都非同小可。
And that would be a big deal any year.
但今年，这件事变得极具争议，因为巴德·班尼公开批评了移民和海关执法局及其移民打压政策。
But this year, it's become incredibly contentious because Bad Bunny has been openly critical of ICE and its immigration crackdown.
早在九月这一决定首次公布时，保守派评论员就对此不满。
Back in September when this was first announced, conservative commentators were not thrilled about it.
NFL竟然选了这个坏兔子，或者不管他叫什么，这人讨厌ICE。
The NFL just chose the bad bunny rabbit or whatever his name, this guy who hates ice.
充满白人内疚、做作地展示道德优越感的NFL宣布，这位痛恨特朗普的波多黎各说唱歌手巴德·班尼将担任超级碗中场秀表演者。
The white guilt ridden, virtue signaling NFL announcing Puerto Rican Trump hating rapper Bad Bunny will be the Super Bowl halftime show.
别因为一个不讲英语的跨性别者来表演中场秀而生气，因为如果卡玛拉赢了，他本可以成为内阁成员。
Don't be mad that we have a cross dresser who doesn't speak English doing the halftime show because if Kamala won, he would have been a cabinet member.
而热爱足球的特朗普总统称，选择巴德·班尼是‘绝对荒谬的’。
And president Trump, who loves football, called the selection of Bad Bunny, quote, absolutely ridiculous.
我以前从来没听说过他。
I'd never I never heard of him.
我不认识他。
I don't know who he is.
我不明白他们为什么要这么做。
I don't know why they're doing it.
这简直太疯狂了。
It's, like, crazy.
然后他们把责任推给请来的某个经纪人。
And then they blame it on some promoter that they hired.
所以今天，我们要聊聊Bad Bunny。
So today, we're gonna talk about Bad Bunny.
和我一起讨论的，是POPCAST节目的主持人、乐评人约翰·卡拉蒙尼卡和音乐记者乔·科斯卡雷利。
And with me to do that are the hosts of POPCAST, music critic John Karamonika and music reporter Joe Coscarelli.
今天是2月1日，星期日。
It's Sunday, February 1.
约翰，乔，欢迎来到《周日日报》。
John, Joe, welcome to the Sunday Daily.
很高兴能在这里。
Great to be Great to be here.
哦，这完全是全新的事情。
Oh, this is like a whole new thing.
我们非常随意。
We're super loose.
我们很随意。
We're loose.
是的。
Yeah.
我们很随意。
We're loose.
是的。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
欢迎来到周日每日节目。
So welcome to the Sunday Daily.
我认为这是第一次每日播客跨界活动。
I think this is the first daily podcast crossover event.
是吗？
Is that right?
谢谢。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Thank you.
这是第一次正式的对。
This is the first official Yeah.
约翰和我从未一起上过《每日节目》的任何一期。
John and I have never been on an episode of the Daily together.
对吧？
Right?
我们很喜欢这一点。
We love that.
我想先明确一点，这一周班尼·布兰科将在文化上几乎完全主导美国。
I wanna start by just stipulating that this is the week that Bad Bunny is gonna essentially subsume America, culturally speaking.
他很有可能在格莱美奖上赢得至少几个重要奖项，而且他将在美国联邦移民打压可能达到前所未有的紧张时刻，用西班牙语在全美观众面前表演？
There's a good chance he will walk away with at least a few big awards at the Grammys, and he is going to perform in Spanish in front of America at this critical juncture when this federal immigration crackdown is maybe at its highest point of tension yet?
我认为是在全美国乃至全世界面前表演，这一点值得提及。
In front of America and the world, I think, which is is worth mentioning.
我的意思是，超级碗是全球最重要、最引人注目的音乐表演之一。
I mean, the Super Bowl is one of, if not, the biggest and most visible music performances on the planet.
抱歉。
Apologies
给格莱美奖，它
to the Grammy Awards, which are
今晚举行。
happening tonight.
向他们致敬。
Salute to them.
这将是两位非常直言不讳的人之间的冲突。
It is a clash between two incredibly vocal people
是的。
Mhmm.
这场对峙即将展开。
That's about to be set up.
正如你所说，Bad Bunny从不回避自己的政治观点，现在他即将与唐纳德·特朗普及其众多追随者展开一场激烈的对抗。
Bad Bunny, as you say, is never shy about his political opinions, and he's now set up to have a very vocal confrontation with Donald Trump and his many minions.
好的。
Okay.
我想先谈谈为什么我们会迎来这一刻——这场潜在冲突的时刻，这个我们都在等待结果的时刻。
I wanna first just get into the reason why we have this moment, this moment of a potential clash, this moment where we're all waiting to see what happens.
我认为这真的与Bad Bunny是谁有关，是的。
And I think that is really because of who Bad Bunny is Mhmm.
他所代表的，是数以千万计聆听他音乐的人。
And what he's come to represent for tens of millions of people who listen to him.
所以让我们从最基本的问题开始。
So let's start there with the basics.
他是谁？
Who is he?
Bad Bunny 是谁？
Who is Bad Bunny?
乔？
Joe?
是的。
Yeah.
Bad Bunny 来自波多黎各的一个小镇。
Bad Bunny comes from small town Puerto Rico.
他本名贝尼托·奥卡西奥。
His he's born Benito Ocasio.
他是在波多黎各第一代和第二代雷鬼动音乐环境中长大的孩子，这种音乐在上世纪九十年代末和二十一世纪初曾在美國掀起巨大的商业浪潮。
He's a kid who grew up on the first and second generations of Puerto Rican reggaeton, which had a huge commercial moment even in The United States in the late nineties and early two thousands.
我认为，至少人们都记得 Daddy Yankee 的《Gasolina》的节奏。
I think if anything, people know the beat from Daddy Yankee's Gasolina.
天哪。
My god.
很难忘掉。
Hard to forget.
当然。
Of course.
那是在九十年代中期到末期拉丁音乐跨界风潮之后，对美国流行文化产生的一次巨大冲击。
And that was, like, a seismic moment in American pop culture on the heels of the Latin crossover of the mid to late nineties.
你想到的可能是另一位波多黎各超级巨星——里克·马丁。
You're thinking Ricky Martin, another Puerto Rican superstar.
然后雷鬼动音乐变得更具攻击性，这是他们对受舞蹈影响的说唱音乐的诠释，没错。
And then that gets a little harder edged with Reggaeton, which is their version of dance influenced rap music Yep.
以具有挑衅性、可以说很露骨，有时还带有厌女倾向而闻名，是的。
Known for being provocative, let's say, explicit, occasionally misogynistic Sure.
就像许多美国说唱音乐曾面临类似的批评一样。
In the way that a lot of American rap music has faced similar criticisms.
然后巴德·班尼出现了，他说：不。
And Bad Bunny shows up, and he's like, no.
不。
No.
不。
No.
我们要按我的方式来做。
We're gonna do things my way.
嗯。
Mhmm.
而这就像大多数事情一样，始于互联网。
And this starts as most things do on the Internet.
他在SoundCloud上发布歌曲，那是2010年代初期地下说唱音乐的平台。
He's posting songs on SoundCloud, which is the sort of underground rap platform of the early twenty tens.
是的。
Yep.
他在YouTube上，也在各种社交媒体上非常活跃。
And he's on YouTube, and he's all over social media.
他成为了一个充满色彩的Instagram人物，通过融合风格和时尚实验，将这个已经趋于僵化的流派带入了21世纪。
He becomes a a colorful Instagram presence, and he's pushing what has become a sort of fossilized genre into the twenty first century with genre bending, with fashion experimentation.
他涂指甲油。
He's painting his nails.
他穿着性别模糊的服装。
He's wearing gender bending clothing.
他佩戴的珠宝可能并非这个圈子里你所熟悉的那种男性气概风格。
He has jewelry that might not be the sort of machismo that you're used to in this world.
他以一种社会进步的方式呈现自己，这种美学与我们迄今为止在雷鬼动明星身上看到的完全不同。
He's presenting himself in this kind of socially progressive way with this aesthetic that doesn't really fit with what we've seen from reggaeton stars thus far.
是的
Yeah.
我要说的是，谈论巴德·邦尼的崛起，就不能不谈他与流媒体平台兴起的契合。
What I will say is you can't talk about the rise of Bad Bunny without talking about how he dovetails with the rise of streaming platforms.
在那之前，想要成为拉丁明星或西班牙语音乐明星，主要得靠电台走红。
In order to be a Latin star or a Spanish language music star in the years leading up to that, primarily, you're a star of radio.
雷鬼动之所以变得僵化或固化，部分原因在于人们找到了一种适合热带电台播放的风格。
Part of the reason that reggaeton got sort of fossilized or ossified in a way is because people landed on a style that made sense on tropical radio, basically.
他们知道这会成为热门歌曲。
Like, they knew it would be a hit.
他们知道这会在这些电台播放。
They knew it would be played on these radio stations.
几乎是从热门歌曲倒推，总结出如何让作品极其成功的公式。
Working almost from the hits backwards and the formulas of how to make things incredibly successful.
巴德·邦尼出现了。
Bad Bunny arrives.
你有什么？
What do you have?
你有YouTube这个成功的分发平台。
You have YouTube as a successful distribution platform.
你有SoundCloud可以发布你的歌曲。
You have SoundCloud to post your songs on.
你有Spotify和Apple Music，可以直接把歌曲推送给听众，而无需依赖广播体系或大型唱片公司的基础设施。
You have Spotify and Apple Music in order to get songs directly out to your listeners without having to navigate a radio infrastructure or even a major label infrastructure.
你说这实际上促进了这种更具创意、更跨界融合的风格，因为根本没有固定风格。
And you're saying that essentially helped facilitate this more creative, more kind of genre bending because there's no style.
没有任何守门人。
There's no gatekeepers.
对。
Right.
如果他早五年出现，他就得想，我该怎么让人听到我的音乐？
If he had come along five years earlier, he'd have to think, well, how do I get heard?
我通过签约大唱片公司并让歌曲在电台播放来获得关注。
I get heard by signing to a major label and by getting played on radio.
为了实现这些，我可能不得不做出一些让步。
I probably have to make some concessions in order to have those things happen.
而你出现在2010年代中期时，所有其他平台都已经就位了。
Whereas you come along in the mid twenty tens, all of the other platforms are in place.
所以在我看来，这些流媒体平台也帮助你更快地成名，而且更多地掌握在自己手中。
So it also seems to me that those streaming platforms help you get famous faster and more within your own control.
是的。
Mhmm.
这似乎也发生在Bad Bunny身上。
And it seems like that happened with Bad Bunny.
他就像一夜之间爆红了，至少我记得是这样。
Like, he just kind of exploded overnight, at least the way I remember it.
他是什么时候进入你的视野的？
When did he show up on your radar screens?
哪首歌让你第一次注意到他走红的？
What was the song that kind of put him on the map for you?
在2010年代中期，有一首歌叫《Soy Peor》。
So in the mid twenty tens, there's a song called Soy Peor.
我们来听一小段吧。
We should listen to a little bit of it.
我们放一下。
Let's play it.
所以
So
这首歌在2016年发布，Bad Bunny立刻成为我所说的真正的YouTube明星。
this comes out right at the 2016, and Bad Bunny instantly becomes a true what I would say a true YouTube star.
这是一个全新的时代，作为记者和乐评人，我们开始真正意识到，真正的热点在互联网上。
This was this was a novel era where I think as reporters and critics, we really started to realize that the real action was on the Internet.
真正的热点在SoundCloud上。
The real action was on SoundCloud.
真正的活跃地带在YouTube上。
The real action is on YouTube.
像Bad Bunny这样的人几乎跳过了所有签约主流唱片公司的艺人。
And someone like Bad Bunny essentially leapfrogged almost everybody who was signed to a major label.
这个视频以及接下来几年发生的事情，确实与我当时所描述的主流西班牙语音乐在质量和影响力上的下滑相吻合。
This this video and what happened in the next couple years really does coincide with what I would describe as a drop in the quality and influence of major label Spanish language music at that time.
到2018年底，他发行了全长专辑《Por Siempre》。
By the end of 2018, he puts out a full length album, Por Siempre.
我记得2018年圣诞节时不得不review这张专辑，我确定是这样。
I remember having to review this, I'm pretty sure, on Christmas in 2018.
我认为，这是那个领域迄今为止最具创意的专辑之一。
And it was, I thought, one of the most creative albums that had come out of that space, period.
它既关注流行音乐，也关注音乐历史。
It was mindful of pop and also mindful of history.
关于Bad Bunny，我觉得最有趣的一点是，我们所有人都坐在这里把他当作一个进步派人物来讨论。
The thing about Bad Bunny that I find so fascinating is we all sit here and talk about him as a progressive.
我们谈论他时，把他视为创新者，视为打破规则的人。
We we we talk about him as an innovator and as someone who's breaking rules.
你如何打破规则？
How do you break rules?
你必须先理解规则，才能打破规则。
You have to understand the rules to break the rules.
我敢说，班尼·布兰科对雷鬼动历史的了解，比当前大多数制作这种音乐的人还要深入，即使他经常在违背它的准则。
And I would venture to say that Bad Bunny knows more about reggaeton history than most people currently making the music, even if he's constantly sort of, like, violating its tenets.
关于班尼·布兰科的音乐崛起，我想说的另一点是，他是在美国说唱音乐被像坎耶·韦斯特和德雷克这样的人彻底改变之后崛起的。
The other thing I wanted to say about Bad Bunny's musical rise is that he's also coming post American rap, being completely changed by people like Kanye West and Drake.
具体怎么说？
Tell me how.
班尼·布兰科在混搭演唱和说唱。
So Bad Bunny is mixing, singing, and rapping.
他为雷鬼动注入了极强的旋律性，而雷鬼动传统上是一种更尖锐、直接、快速说唱的流派。
He is bringing an extremely melodic touch to raigaton, which is traditionally a more serrated in your face rapid fire rapping genre.
嗯嗯。
Uh-huh.
他软化了它的棱角。
And he's softening its edges.
约翰提到了Bad Bunny的首张专辑《Por Siempre》。
John mentions Por Siempre, the Bad Bunny debut album.
我真正注意到Bad Bunny的时刻，是那张专辑的首支单曲《Estamos Pien》。
The real moment when I stood up and took notice of Bad Bunny was the debut single from that album, which is called Estamos Pien.
音乐录影带极具梦幻感。
Extremely dreamy music video.
你又看到了涂着指甲油的手指。
Again, you see the painted nails.
你看他在《Soy Peor》的视频里，看起来几乎就是一个标准的雷鬼动艺人。
You see a guy who doesn't look even in the video for Soy Peor, he looks like pretty much a standard reggaeton Yep.
艺术家。
Artist.
是的
Yeah.
他看起来像个说唱歌手。
He looks like a rapper.
在《Estamos Bien》中，他看起来更像Young Thug，这位说唱歌手打破了美国说唱的所有规则，重塑了我们熟悉的音乐风格。
In it Estamos Bien, he looks more like Young Thug, who's a rapper that broke all the rules of rap in America and sort of warps the sound that we're used to.
《Estamos Bien》像一首流行歌曲。
Estamos Bien is like a pop song.
它很优美。
It's beautiful.
有点情绪化。
It's like a little bit emo.
他汲取了后iPod时代各种不同的音乐元素。
He's taking from all of these different strains of basically post iPod music.
对吧？
Right?
当我们想到年轻人成长过程中聆听的音乐无所不包，而不仅仅是一张他们买得起的CD
When we think about young people growing up listening to everything, not just the one CD they can afford
是的。
Yeah.
在任何一个星期里。
On a given week.
但如果你成长于iTunes、YouTube和文件共享的时代
But if you grow up in the time of iTunes and YouTube and file sharing
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
突然间，整个世界都触手可及。
All of a sudden, the entire world is at your fingertips.
没错。
Exactly.
而Bad Bunny正是所有这些因素同时汇聚的载体，而且他用西班牙语进行创作。
And Bad Bunny was very much a vessel for all of these things combining at once, and he's doing it in Spanish.
你的意思是，他之所以没有遵循这种标准的发展轨迹，之所以能成为如此成功的跨界艺人，部分原因在于他成长的时代。
You're saying basically that part of the reason he doesn't follow this standard arc, part of the reason he is such a crossover artist is the time in which he comes up.
这非常具体。
It's very specific.
但我们跳过了一步，那就是《Despacito》。
But we did skip a step, and that step was despacito.
什么是《Despacito》这一步？
What's the despacito step?
我认为，如果不谈2017年Luis Fonsi和Daddy Yankee的歌曲《Despacito》所发生的事，就无法讨论Bad Bunny和拉丁音乐的流行，以及它们下周登上超级碗舞台的现象。
So I don't think you can talk about the popularity of Bad Bunny and Latin music and its arrival on the Super Bowl stage next week without talking about what happened in 2017 with Luis Fonzi and Daddy Yankee's song Despacito.
《Despacito》。
Despacito.
这
Which
成为了有史以来最畅销的单曲之一，无论语言如何。
became one of the biggest singles of all time regardless of language.
是的
Mhmm.
这是一首由两位当时并非最热门或最潮流的资深艺人创作的拉丁流行歌曲。
This is a Latin pop song from two veteran artists who were not exactly the hottest or coolest at that moment.
他们创作了一首完全无法抗拒的舞曲，吸引了两岁和八十二岁的听众。
They made a totally undeniable dance hit that appealed to two year olds and 82 year olds.
对
Uh-huh.
然后他们邀请了贾斯汀·比伯参与混音版，他在其中大部分用西班牙语演唱。
And then they got Justin Bieber on the remix in which he sings mostly in Spanish.
他主动来找他们。
He comes to them.
那这是哪一年？
And this was what year?
这是2017年。
This was in 2017.
所以这算是Bad Bunny爆红之前的事了。
So this is kind of pre Bad Bunny's explosion.
当时他们意识到，由于音乐可以通过网络传播并逐渐上升到电台、颁奖典礼、电视表演等各个平台，他们明白已经无法回头了。
It's all happening at the same time when they realize that because of the way music can traffic online and then bubble up to radio stations, award shows, television performances, all of that, they realized there was no going back.
对吧？
Right?
这就像牙膏从管子里挤出来一样，对拉丁音乐或任何非英语的流行音乐而言，人们清楚地意识到，已经存在足够大的受众来支撑它的发展。
This was a toothpaste out of the tube moment for Latin music or pop music in any language besides English in which it became clear that there was a big enough audience to sustain it.
我认为，在《Despacito》成为有史以来榜单停留时间最长的冠军单曲之一后，突然间，人们对这些能够保持本真的艺术家产生了巨大的兴趣和投资。
And I think after Despacito becomes among the longest running chart toppers ever, all of a sudden, there's tons of interest and investment in these artists that are allowed to stay who they are.
而且，我们之前也稍微谈到了流媒体的力量。
And, also, we talked a little bit earlier about the power of streaming.
它对西班牙语音乐产生了最显著的影响之一，因为它将全球讲西班牙语的数亿人聚集在一起，让他们能够找到用自己母语表达心声的音乐。
It's had one of the most visible impacts on Spanish language music because what it did is it it sort of aggregated everybody all across the planet, hundreds of millions of people who speak Spanish, all one home to be able to find music that speaks to them in their language.
它也让艺术家们无需妥协就能触及如此庞大的受众。
It also makes it so the artists don't have to compromise to reach that level of audience.
如果在有远见的艺术家和数亿观众之间存在中间人或守门人，很可能就会发生一些协商，尤其是在语言方面。
If there's a middleman, if there's a gatekeeper in between a visionary artist and hundreds of millions of people, there's probably some negotiation going on, in this case, specifically in terms of language.
巴德·邦尼
What Bad Bunny
很好。
Good.
我们来谈谈这个。
Let's talk about that.
是的。
Yeah.
在巴德·邦尼登上超级碗舞台的过程中，他从未用英语演唱过说唱。
What Bad Bunny has never done in his ascent to the Super Bowl stage is sing a rap in English.
为了更明确一点，他的拉丁音乐前辈们确实做过这样的事。
And just to put a fine point on that, that's something that his predecessors in the world of Latin music did.
对吧？
Right?
我的意思是，想想马克·安东尼、夏奇拉。
I mean, you think about Mark Anthony, Shakira.
他们的歌曲都有英文版本。
There were English versions of their songs.
我的意思是，他们虽然做西班牙语音乐，但也制作了非英语的歌曲，直接吸引这个受众。
I mean, they did Spanish music, but they also made music that wasn't English theoretically to appeal directly to this audience.
那为什么巴德·邦尼没有这么做呢？
So why did Bad Bunny not do that?
而且，你们跟他聊过。
And, I mean, you guys talked to him.
他对这个决定有什么看法？
What's his relationship to that decision?
是的
Yeah.
我的意思是，他代表了二十一世纪一种新型的流行明星，音乐人可以直接与粉丝互动。
I mean, he represents a new kind of pop star for the twenty first century in which the musicians can commune directly with their audiences.
你想一想BTS这样的艺人。
You think of artists like BTS.
这是一个韩国流行音乐团体。
This is the k pop group.
对。
Right.
再以坏兔子为例，他的歌曲播放量高达数十亿，围绕他甚至形成了完整的经济生态，而他们唱的却是韩语。
Again, on the level of Bad Bunny, billions and billions and billions of plays, entire economies built around them, and they sing in Korean.
他们触达了全球各地的听众，其中一些人会说韩语，一些人因为这种音乐而学习韩语，还有一些人根本听不懂歌词在唱什么。
And they reach listeners all around the world, some of whom speak Korean, some of whom learn Korean because of this music, and some of whom have no idea what's being sung or rapped.
我认为这一切也同样适用于坏兔子。
And I think all of that goes for Bad Bunny as well.
而且你们在节目的播客里跟他聊过这个话题。
And I mean, you guys talked to him about this on podcasts on your show.
他是怎么说的？
What does he say about it?
因为这是一个决定。
Because it's a decision.
对吧？
Right?
这是在一开始做出决定并坚持下去。
It's a decision to do it in the beginning and to stick with it.
我的意思是，这已经持续了很多年了。
I mean, it's now been years and years of this.
我希望你们能播放我们采访中的那段，我觉得，乔，你当时问他了。
I hope you'll play the part from our interview where I think, Joe, you asked him.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yes.
好主意。
Good idea.
我们播放一下吧。
Let's play it.
现在你的音乐已经传遍了全球数以百万计的人群，你是否有一部分觉得，那些听不懂歌词的听众会错过某些东西，永远无法完全理解你想表达的内涵？
Now that your music is reaching so many millions of people around the world, is there a part of you that feels like listeners who don't understand the lyrics are missing something and will never fully grasp what you're trying to convey?
当然。
Definitely.
当然，很多人错过了很多很多。
Definitely people miss a lot of a lot of
细微之处。
Nuance.
对。
Yeah.
实际上，就连许多讲西班牙语的拉丁裔人士也错过了很多内容，我认为，因为我唱的是波多黎各俚语。
Actually, even there's a lot of Latinos who speak Spanish that they're missing a lot, I think, because I'm singing in Puerto Rican slang.
对。
Right.
我问他这是否让他困扰，他是否希望听众能更努力理解，或者他自己能更努力地与听众沟通，去贴近他们的理解水平。
And I asked him if that bothers him, if he if he wished that, you know, either the audience tried harder or he tried harder to to communicate with them, to to meet them where they were.
那他是怎么说的？
And what'd he say?
他说，我不在乎。
He said, I don't care.
他非常坚定地说了这句话。
And he He said it very
他说得很投入。
into it.
他用很富有旋律感的方式说了这句话。
He said it very melodically.
它就是
It's it's
我不在乎。
I don't care.
这几乎就像流媒体的普及。
It's almost like the proliferation of streaming.
它所展示的是，英语的霸权一直以来都是一个谬误。
What it does is kind of show that the hegemony of the English language was a fallacy the
一直以来都是。
whole time.
一直都是。
Always was.
对吧？
Right?
一直都是。
And Always was.
而巴德·邦尼推开门，开启了一个全新的世界，让人们清楚地看到，不仅仅是西班牙语使用者，许许多多人都想听这种音乐。
And Bad Bunny walks through that door and kind of opens this new world where it becomes very clear that many, many people, you know, not just Spanish speakers, wanna hear this.
是的。
Yep.
然后他进入了一段疯狂的爆发期。
And then he goes on this insane run.
对吧？
Right?
他发行了六张专辑，还不包括混音带和合作作品，六张个人专辑。
He puts out six albums, not counting mixtapes and collaboration, six solo albums of his own.
《Un Verano Sin Ti》于2022年发布。
Un Verano Senti comes out in 2022.
这可以说是到那时为止的巅峰之作。
That's sort of the high watermark up to that point.
我认为这被广泛认为是他的代表作，因为这首歌融合了他所有擅长的元素。
That's, I think, widely considered his masterpiece, and that's because it combines everything that he's good at.
它融合了他那种多情的演唱、拉丁陷阱说唱、轻松随意的趣味元素，同时也包含了能填满体育场的宏大 anthem。
It combines the sort of Lovelorn singing he does, the Latin trap rapping, the sort of tossed off fun stuff, but also stadium filling anthems.
然后时间来到2025年。
And then you get to 2025.
2025年1月5日，他发行了首张专辑《Tirar Más Fotos》，这是他最新的专辑。
01/05/2025, he puts out debut tirar mas photos, his most recent album.
是的。
Yep.
这张专辑对他来说是一次小小的转向。
And this is a bit of a swerve for him.
这张专辑以一首名为《Nueva Yo》的歌曲开场。
And the album starts with a song called Nueva Yo.
《Nueva Yo》。
Nueva Yo.
讲述的是在纽约的拉丁美洲人，是的。
About Latin Americans in New York Yep.
以及他如何在这里感到自在。
And how he can feel at home here.
而且使用的是传统乐器。
And it's traditional instrumentation.
它的数字化程度没有他过去的作品那么高。
It's not as digital as everything he's done in the past.
它有一种独特而手工制作的感觉。
It has this sort of bespoke homemade feel to it.
这是派对音乐，但也在向各种融合成这一拉丁音乐爆发时刻的风格致意，无论是个人层面还是我认为的国际层面。
It's party music, but it's nodding to all of the various styles that come together to make this moment of Latin music explosion, both personally and, I think, internationally.
这是一张关于回忆的专辑。
This is an album of of memory.
它叫做《我本该多拍些照片》。
It's called I Should Have Taken More Photos.
是的。
Mhmm.
这是一张关于分手的专辑，同时也是一张关于远离波多黎各的专辑。
It's a it's a breakup album, it's but also an album about being away from Puerto Rico.
Bad Bunny 曾在洛杉矶生活了一年。
Bad Bunny had spent a year living in Los Angeles.
非常出名。
Being very famous.
非常出名。
Being very famous.
他被狗仔队拍到与当时的疑似女友肯达尔·詹娜在一起，成为了一位要么奔波在路上、要么住在好莱坞山上的超级巨星。
Being paparazzied with Kendall Jenner, his alleged girlfriend at the time, and becoming this huge star who lives either on the road or in the Hollywood Hills.
而这张专辑在我看来，代表了他回家了。
And then this album represents, I think, him coming back home.
而且，就像他职业生涯至今一直所做的那样，只不过现在有了更明亮的聚光灯，向人们展示他的根源。
And once again, as he'd done throughout his career to this point, but now with a brighter spotlight, showing people where he comes from.
这很有趣，因为你们描绘了这位超级巨星的成长轨迹，似乎随着他越来越出名，知名度和影响力不断提升，他已经成为了一个彻头彻尾的巨星。
It's interesting because you're you guys have sketched a trajectory of this megastar where it seems as though as he became more famous, as his profile and his influence grew, you know, he's a total star.
同时，听起来他对传统音乐的投入更深了。
And at the same time, it sounds like he's deepening his commitment to traditional music.
这真是个人叙事、音乐叙事，我认为还有政治叙事的巧妙交织，即使后者略显隐晦。
It's it's an interesting dovetailing of personal narrative, musical narrative, and I think political narrative, even if it's a tiny bit sublimated.
但它确实存在。
But but it is there.
所以在我看来，当你达到一定的名气时，不可避免地要做出某种牺牲。
So to me, you get to a certain level of fame, and invariably, you're making some kind of sacrifice.
你牺牲了自己的隐私。
You're sacrificing your privacy.
你牺牲了独立做决定的能力，必须考虑他人的意见，以及自己的行为可能对未来机会造成的影响。
You're sacrificing your ability to make decisions on your own without consultation with others, without thinking about how it might affect future opportunities.
你实际上是在经营一家小型企业。
You're running essentially a small business.
是的。
Mhmm.
你可不是那么小规模了。
You're on Not that small.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
你确实是啊。
You you are yeah.
正如乔之前所说，你就是一个独立的经济体。我觉得，看到一个正处于巅峰状态的人，明明可以完全说‘我知道自己在做什么’，这非常有趣。
As Joe said earlier, you are your own economy in a And it was fascinating, I think, to see someone really at the peak of their powers who who could have just absolutely said, you know what I'm doing?
我可以接下来三年进行全球体育场巡演，赚上几亿美元。
I'm going on a global stadium run for the next three years and making hundreds of millions of dollars.
嗯。
Mhmm.
他说，不。
He says, no.
我对自己负有道德责任。
I have a moral obligation to myself.
我对在波多黎各音乐领域中先于我的人们负有创作责任。
I have a creative obligation to the people who predated me in Puerto Rican music.
我负有情感责任，要创作出真正契合我灵魂的作品。
I have an emotional obligation to make something that's true to my spirit.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我认为，很多这样的情况都源于他在远离家乡时，家乡所发生的一切。
And I think a lot of that happened because of what was going on in his homeland as he was increasingly away from it.
好的。
Okay.
谈谈这个。
Talk about that.
波多黎各在过去十年里频繁登上新闻。
Puerto Rico, been in the news a lot this last decade.
2017年，就在巴德·邦尼成为超级巨星的时候，玛丽亚飓风袭击了波多黎各。
2017, right when Bad Bunny is becoming a superstar, Hurricane Maria hits.
是的。
Yep.
造成岛上多人死亡，由于政府和美国政府对这场危机的应对，引发了长达数年的政治动荡。
Kills many on the island, you know, leads to years and years of political upheaval stemming from the government's handling of that crisis and The United States' handling of that crisis.
你看到巴德·邦尼在公众视野中实时经历他的政治觉醒。
You have Bad Bunny, I think, having his political awakening in real time in public.
2019年发生了一个充分体现这一点的时刻：当时总督与助手之间的通信泄露，暴露了腐败、恐同和不尊重行为，引发了街头抗议。
You have this moment in 2019, which really illustrates this, which is that there are street protests against the governor at the time after correspondence between the governor and his associates that leaks and shows both corruption, homophobia, disrespect
对。
Yeah.
冷漠。
Callousness.
对玛丽亚飓风遇难者的冷漠与不敬。
Callousness and disrespect for the dead from hurricane Maria.
波多黎各人走上街头抗议，而当时巴德·班尼正在欧洲巡演。
And Puerto Ricans take to the streets, and Bad Bunny's on this big European tour at the time.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
而且
And
他做了什么？
what does he do?
他取消了演出。
He cancels his shows.
他飞回了家。
He flies home.
哇。
Wow.
他与另外两位波多黎各艺术家雷森特和伊勒合作录制了一首抗议歌曲。
He records a protest anthem with two other Puerto Rican artists, Residente and Ile.
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他们推出了一首歌，歌名翻译过来是‘磨刀霍霍’，巴德·邦尼点名批评了州长，并走上街头抗议。
And they put out this song which translates to sharpening the knives, and Bad Bunny calls out the governor by name And takes to the streets.
巴德·邦尼说，我的人民需要我。
Bad Bunny says, my people need me.
我会陪在他们身边。
I'm gonna be beside them.
由于这些抗议活动，州长最终辞职了。
And in part because of these protests, the governor ends up resigning.
哇。
Wow.
我觉得这就是巴德·邦尼在展现他的力量。
I think that's Bad Bunny coming into his power.
对。
Right.
从那以后，只要他感到有必要发声，尤其是关于波多黎各的事情，他就从不停止。
And from there, he doesn't stop anytime he feels the call to say something, in particular, something about Puerto Rico.
你说他正在成为一个在当下明确具有政治色彩的人物。
He's becoming, you're saying, a kind of explicitly political figure in this moment.
是的。
Yeah.
但我认为他做了一件非常谨慎的事，而且我认为其他艺术家，坦白说，都值得借鉴，那就是他谈论的是对他个人有意义的问题。
But I think he's doing something very careful, and I think something that other artists, frankly, could take note of, which is he's speaking about issues that are meaningful to him personally.
我认为，每当他决定站出来发声时，这一点都能体现出来。
And I think that comes across anytime he decides he's gonna stand up and say something.
因为这些问题与他息息相关，源于他的出身。
It's because it's an issue that is near and dear to him and where he comes from.
这显得很真实。
It seems authentic.
他并不像只是那天临时披上了一件政治外衣。
It doesn't seem like he's trying on some sort of political shirt that day.
对。
Yeah.
然后还有另一个政治时刻，我坦白说，是在为这次与你们的节目做准备时才了解到的，那就是这首歌《Yo Perreo Sola》。
And then there's this there's this other political moment that I honestly learned about preparing for this show with you guys, which is this song, Yo Pereo Sola.
《Yo Perreo Sola》。
Yo Pereo Sola.
我的意思是，这相当于英文里的《我独自跳扭摆舞》，讲述的是一位女性独自跳舞的故事。
I mean, it's I Twerk Alone in English, and it's about a woman who dances alone.
这首歌本质上是关于性骚扰和针对女性的暴力行为。
It's a song essentially about sexual harassment and violence against women.
我之前并不知道这一点，因为我一直把这首歌当作一首非常适合跳舞、让人听得很开心的歌。
I did not know that because I experienced that song as an amazing song to dance to and have, like, a great time listening to.
我后来才了解到它具有政治意义，这其实很合理。
I learned it was political, which makes sense.
但，是的，我不确定该如何理解这一点。
But, yeah, I wonder what to make of that.
我的意思是，这正是Bad Bunny的天才之处，我认为任何有志于将更复杂的思想以易消化、愉快、欢庆形式包装的流行人物都是如此。
I mean, this is the genius of Bad Bunny, and I think any great pop figure who is interested in Trojan horsing more complicated ideas in digestible, joyful, celebratory packages.
巴德·班尼最有效的一点是，他以一种自然的方式将这些内容结合起来，让人不会觉得他在说教，同时你也可以仅仅享受其表面的愉悦。
One of the things that Bad Bunny has done really effectively in a way that I think prevents people from feeling like he's preachy is pairing these things in a way that feels natural, but also in a way that you can just enjoy on their surface level.
好的。
Okay.
这让我们几乎回到了当下。
Which I think brings us just about to near the present moment.
你说他于2025年1月发布了这张专辑，而那个月恰好是唐纳德·特朗普就任美国总统的月份。
You said he comes out with this album, his most recent album in January 2025, obviously, the same month that Donald Trump is inaugurated as president of The United States.
随后，他在专辑及其在美国的演出上做出了一系列决定，这些决定在美国境内发出了更直接的政治声明。
He then makes a series of decisions around that album and the performances of those songs in The United States that are making more direct statements politically in The United States.
约翰，你给我讲讲这些事吧。
Walk me through those, John.
我们之前谈到过这张专辑对他而言是一次归乡之旅，他自己也明确表示：是的。
So we talked about this album as a homecoming for him, and he makes that explicit by saying, yes.
我会演出，但不会在美国演出。
I'm gonna perform, but I'm not gonna perform in The United States.
我不会在加利福尼亚、纽约或德克萨斯演出。
I'm not gonna perform in California or New York or Texas.
我将在波多黎各举办数十场演出。
I'm gonna perform dozens of shows in Puerto Rico.
如果你想看我表演，你就得亲自来。
And if you wanna come see me, you have to come see me.
让你
Make a
安排一次旅行。
trip of it.
来吧。
Come.
是的。
Yes.
来吧，把你的钱花在支持上。
Come put your money where Bolstered.
我的嘴是。
My mouth is.
是的。
Yes.
你知道吗？
You know?
哇。
Wow.
那真是
That's
真的很棒。
really That's good.
很好。
Good.
商标。
Trademark.
那是 off
That's off
off
the off
顶部。
the top.
从圆顶上。
Off the dome.
当然，这有助于提振当地经济，同时也让他能够完全按照自己的方式演出，并且 presumably 每晚都能回家。
Bolstering the local economy, obviously, but also allowing him to perform truly purely on his terms and presumably go home every night.
嗯。
Mhmm.
后来，他表示，这一决定的部分原因在于担心他的演唱会以及聚集在演唱会现场的粉丝，可能会被用作特朗普政府持续实施移民执法行动的工具。
Later, he says part of that decision is attributable to concerns about how his concerts and the fans that might be gathered at his concerts might be used as cudgels in the ongoing immigration enforcement actions of the Trump administration.
并且他明确表示：我不想给移民与海关执法局和特朗普提供一个明显的靶子，让他们来抓人。
And saying explicitly, I don't wanna give ICE and Trump an obvious target to come and gather folks up.
这场超级碗演出将是巴德·邦尼自做出不再在美国大陆演出的决定以来，首次在大陆美国登台，原因是他担心移民执法局（ICE）以及这些因素。
This performance at the Super Bowl, it will be Bad Bunny's first performance in the Continental US since he made that decision to to not show up here for fear of ICE and for these reasons.
首次公开演出。
First public performance.
是的。
Yes.
没错。
Right.
这是他第一次面对观众演出。
First one in front of a crowd.
而且这不仅是一般的观众，也不仅是一般的演出，而是一个充满政治张力的电视时刻，没人知道他会如何利用这段时间。
And it's not just any crowd, and it's not just any performance, but it's this television moment with all of these political stakes swirling around it, and no one knows how he's gonna use that time.
我们先短暂休息一下。
Let's take a quick break.
回来后，我们将探讨NFL为何选择将这个舞台交给巴德·邦尼，以及其中的各种复杂因素。
And when we come back, we're gonna look at why the NFL decided to offer this stage to Bad Bunny and all the complications around that.
我们马上回来。
We'll be right back.
你好。
Hi.
我是朱丽叶。
I'm Juliette.
我是乔莉。
I'm Joelle.
我们来自《纽约时报》游戏团队。
We're from the New York Times games team.
我们在这里和粉丝们聊聊我们的游戏。
And we're here talking to fans about our games.
你玩我们游戏时的感觉是什么？
What's your vibe
当你玩我们的一款游戏时？
when you're playing one of our games?
这让我觉得我在以一种非常高效的方式拖延。
It makes me feel like I'm procrastinating in a really productive way.
它正好挠到了我脑子里的痒处。
It just scratches an itch in my brain.
你有固定的流程吗？
Do you have a routine?
我和我男朋友在异地恋。
I'm doing long distance with my boyfriend.
我们每天晚上都会打电话，共享屏幕。
We'll call every night and share our screen.
我们会先做连接，然后是迷你游戏，最后是串列。
We do connections, the mini, and then strands.
总是按这个顺序。
Always in that order.
真可爱。
Aw.
你有最喜欢的吗？
Do you have a favorite?
迷你版。
The mini.
我们尽量控制在三十秒以内。
We try and get it under thirty seconds.
我们很少能控制在三十秒内，但这一直是我们的目标。
We rarely get it under thirty, but that's always the goal.
很多人会给自己计时，但拼字比赛时，我一整天都行。
Folks will really time themselves, but with spelling bee, I give myself all day.
赢得女王蜂真的特别有趣。
It is really fun getting queen bee.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我在我孩子睡觉前玩这个游戏。
I play it when my kids are going to bed.
你们一起玩吗？
Do you guys play together?
我女儿玩。
My daughter plays.
她喜欢玩Wordle。
She likes playing Wordle.
如果你某天错过了，还有往期题目可以玩。
If you ever miss a day, there's also archives.
这真是太好了。
That's so great to know.
你们也有连接版的游戏。
And you have it for connections as well.
主啊，帮帮我。
Lord, help me.
我每天都会一直这么做。
I'm just gonna be doing that all day, every day.
《纽约时报》游戏订阅用户现在可以访问我们最受欢迎游戏的存档。
New York Times game subscribers can now access archives for our most popular games.
了解更多请访问 nytimes.com/games。
Find out more at nytimes.com/games.
所以当今年九月传出坏兔子被选为超级碗中场秀表演嘉宾的消息时，我必须说，我真的很惊讶，因为我简直不敢相信，NFL 这个以不越界著称的联盟，竟然选了这么一位具有政治争议性的人物。
So when the news came out in September that Bad Bunny was the pick for the Super Bowl halftime show, I have to say I was honestly surprised because I couldn't believe the NFL, which is not a league known for pushing boundaries, chose someone who was gonna be this politically contentious.
那你给我解释一下吧。
So explain that to me.
这一切都要从 NFL 和科林·卡佩尼克发生的事说起。
This all goes back to what happened with the NFL and Colin Kaepernick.
他预计会再次下跪，抗议他所说的针对非裔美国人的社会不公。
He's expected to kneel once again and protest to what he says are social injustices to African Americans.
大约在2016年，这位旧金山49人队的四分卫自发在足球比赛前的国歌演奏时下跪，以抗议警方对黑人男子的对待。
Around 2016, you have this quarterback for the San Francisco forty niners who takes it upon himself to kneel during the national anthem before football games in protest of the police treatment of black men.
相信我，如果科林·卡佩尼克现在出现在这个《因素》节目中，他几秒钟内就会被彻底驳倒，因为根据他迄今为止的言论，他对时事的了解实在匮乏。
And believe me, if Colin Kaepernick were on this program, The Factor right now, he'd be sacked within seconds because his knowledge of current events is sadly lacking based upon what he has said so far.
他实际上被排挤并从NFL黑名单中除名，而NFL在应对由此引发的社会动荡时极为困难，这在一定程度上体现在其难以邀请黑人及有影响力的艺人出演中场秀。
He was essentially pushed out and blacklisted from the NFL, and the NFL had a really hard time responding to the social upheaval that came from this, and that was reflected in part by its inability to book black and relevant acts for its halftime show.
你的意思是，对NFL来说，当前的问题在于它难以应对这个时代，这使得那些希望参与中场秀的艺术家感到疏离。
And you're saying part of the problem for the NFL at this point is that it has a tough time dealing with this moment, and that alienates artists who wants to book for the halftime show.
是的。
Yes.
这一切在2019年达到顶点，当时超级碗在亚特兰大举行，而亚特兰大是现代黑人音乐的中心。
And this all comes to a head in 2019 when the Super Bowl was in Atlanta, the capital of black music in modern times.
所有人都在想，亚特兰大超级碗中场秀可以邀请哪些杰出的说唱歌手或R&B歌手。
And everyone is thinking, oh, all the amazing rappers or r and b singers that they could book for the Atlanta Super Bowl halftime show.
有报道称，蕾哈娜拒绝了这场演出。
There's reports that Rihanna turned the show down.
当时蕾哈娜正处于她全球巅峰的成功时期。
Rihanna sort of at the peak of her world beating success at that moment.
她说，据报道称，我绝不参与这个后卡佩尼克的表演。
And she says, allegedly, according to reporting, I don't want any part of this post Kaepernick.
你是说，这是对NFL对待卡佩尼克方式的抗议吗？
As a protest, you're saying, of the NFL's treatment of Kaepernick.
完全正确。
Totally.
结果我们却请来了魔力红。
Instead, we get Maroon five.
在那一刻，你根本不可能选出比魔力红更无争议的艺人来领衔超级碗中场秀，我们要强调的是，这是美国每年规模最大的演唱会。
You really, at that moment, could not pick a more anodyne artist to headline the Super Bowl halftime show, which we wanna underscore is the biggest concert on American soil every year.
别误会，我对魔力红没有恶意。
No offense to Maroon five.
是的。
Yes.
对魔力红没有恶意。
Offense to Maroon five.
军团，没有粉丝。
Legion, no fans.
那里有
There a
给魔力红起个名字吗？
stand name for Maroon five?
纤维？
The fibers?
黑手党？
Mafia?
魔力红黑手党。
The Maroon five mafia.
是的。
Yes.
所有冒犯都给魔力红，我觉得我在文章里说过，如果他们真有什么公信力的话，那么他们早就丧失殆尽了。
All offense to Maroon five, who I think I said something in my piece, who said would have lost all credibility had they any credibility to lose.
哇。
Wow.
也许这件事的积极影响是让每个人都意识到：糟了。
Maybe the positive outcome of that is it makes everyone realize, uh-oh.
这必须得到解决。
This has to be fixed.
于是NFL意识到他们遇到了一个问题。
And so the NFL realizes they have a problem.
顺便说一下，我收到一条信息，说酷玩乐队的粉丝被称为‘Marooners’，以防有人想知道。
By the way, I'm getting a note that the Maroon five fans are called the Marooners just in case anybody wants
因为她们被困在岛上，没人愿意去救她们？
to Because they're stuck on an island and no one wants to rescue them?
哇。
Wow.
我的意思是，他们是在收留流浪者。
I mean, they're catching strays.
他们自己造成了这种情况。
They set themselves up for that one.
抱歉。
Sorry.
好的。
Okay.
所以NFL通过这支绿洲乐队的表演跌入了低谷。
So the NFL is at its low point with this Maroon five performance.
给我讲讲具体情况。
Get me up to speed.
接下来发生了什么？
What happens?
因为很明显，之后有了复苏。
Because, obviously, there's some recovery.
他们需要帮助。
They need help.
他们联系了杰伊·兹。
They call Jay z.
杰伊·兹的Roc Nation，他的娱乐公司，有一个体育部门。
Jay z's Roc Nation, his entertainment company, has a sports wing.
杰伊·兹一直有将街头文化与董事会连接起来的历史。
Jay z has a history of, let's say, bridging the gap between street level culture and boardrooms.
这正是他的行事风格，尤其是在他职业生涯的后半段。
That's his whole MO, especially in the latter half of his career.
NFL邀请Roc Nation作为合作伙伴，帮助他们挑选超级碗中场秀的表演者，以及整个NFL赛季中围绕这一活动的其他娱乐内容。
And the NFL brings on Rock Nation as a partner to help them in the selection of Super Bowl halftime performers and all other entertainment that goes around the edges of that throughout the NFL season.
他们正处于修复模式。
They're in repair mode.
他们正处于修复模式，需要一个看似合理的掩护。
They're in repair mode, and they need a It's plausible cover.
对。
Right.
他们需要一位外交家。
And they need a diplomat.
Jay Z 因此立即面临大量批评。
Jay z immediately faces a ton of backlash for this.
他之前曾支持科林·卡佩尼克，人们说他背叛了立场。
He had previously been a supporter of Colin Kaepernick's, and people say he sold out.
人们说他与敌人勾结，诸如此类。
People say he's collaborating with the enemy, etcetera.
Jay Z 的说法是：我在这里从内部推动改变。
The way Jay Z frames it as, I'm here to make change from the inside.
明白了。
Got it.
于是 Roc Nation 开始安排一系列更相关、更多元化的中场表演。
So Rock Nation then works to book a string of slightly more relevant, slightly more diverse halftime shows.
嗯。
Mhmm.
所以Roc Nation的第一个超级碗中场秀是夏奇拉和珍妮弗·洛佩兹。
So the very first Roc Nation halftime show is Shakira and Jennifer Lopez.
Bad Bunny实际上在这场表演中客串了一把。
Bad Bunny actually makes a cameo during that performance.
然后你迎来了那个周末。
And then you get the weekend.
最终你迎来了蕾哈娜。
You get Rihanna eventually.
接着，在超级碗上出现了一个重大时刻，我认为这是类似于Band Aid的时刻，但以Jay Z的方式呈现，让说唱音乐终于得到了应有的光芒。
And then there's this one big moment for the Super Bowl that I think is the Band Aid, the Jay Z shaped Band Aid on top of everything, which is rap gets its shine.
有一场超级碗中场秀由德雷博士、斯诺普·道格、玛丽·布莱姬、肯德里克·拉马尔和埃米纳姆主演。
There's a Super Bowl halftime show starring doctor Dre and Snoop Dogg, Mary j Blige, Kendrick Lamar, and Eminem.
在这场表演中，还发生了一个非计划内的时刻：埃米纳姆为了声援科林·卡佩尼克，在舞台上单膝下跪。
What also happens during that performance is a sort of off script moment where Eminem, in solidarity with Colin Kaepernick, takes a knee on stage.
我认为，这并非巧合——舞台上的这位白人艺术家觉得，自己有道德义务来表达这种团结的姿态。
This, I think, not a coincidence that the white artist on stage felt like he had the moral imperative to make the show of solidarity.
还有，也许是有余地的。
Also, maybe the leeway.
没错。
Exactly.
是的。
Yeah.
的曲
The cur
和货币。
and the currency.
没错。
Exactly.
但这是我认为NFL并不喜欢的事情。
But this is something that I don't think the NFL loved.
然而，它对每个人来说却都有效。
And yet, it sort of works for everyone.
我认为当谈到巴德·邦尼时，我们会触及这个想法——你希望这种感觉带点危险性，尤其是当杰伊·兹参与其中并说‘不’的时候。
And I think we'll get to this idea when it comes to Bad Bunny is, like, you want this to feel a little bit dangerous, especially if Jay z is involved and saying, no.
不。
No.
不。
No.
我们不会向企业资金和所有权屈服。
We're not capitulating to corporate dollars and ownership.
我们正在将我们的文化带到世界舞台上。
We are bringing our culture to the world stage.
我们正在做我们通常不被允许做的事情。
We're doing what we do in this space where we typically were not allowed.
所以，你希望能让艺术家知道，他们会拥有一定的自由，能够吸引这些目光，向他们展示一些如果托比·基思——愿他安息——担任压轴表演时他们可能看不到的东西。
So you want to be able to tell the artist that they're gonna have some freedom, that they're gonna be able to take those eyeballs and show them something that they might not see if, you know, Toby Keith, may he rest in peace, was headlining this.
你的意思是，一丝越界感对所有人都有帮助。
You're you're saying, like, a whiff of transgressiveness is helpful to all.
让人持续观看。
Keeps people watching.
对。
Right.
而且你看。
It's also look.
杰伊·兹参与监督中场秀，是嘻哈音乐界长期讨论资本主义与行动主义之间关系，或这两个领域重叠的一部分。
Jay z coming on to help supervise the halftime show is another step in this long sort of conversation in hip hop about capitalism as activism or the overlaps of those two spaces.
多年来，许多人认为，说唱音乐的巨大规模、影响力和企业力量本身就是一种行动主义。
And I think the proposition for many years was that the sheer scale, power, and corporate influence of rap music was a form of activism in and of itself.
这很有趣。
It's interesting.
去年，肯德里克·拉马尔在中场秀上表演，当时正值他与德雷克争端的余波，人们都在密切关注这一点。
Last year, Kendrick Lamar performs at the halftime show kind of in the post glow of his Drake beef, which is what people were extremely watching for.
我们去年在《每日新闻》上讨论过，乔，你和我。
And we discussed, Joe, you and I, on The Daily last year,
我会，而且只是
I'll And just
那场表演中唯一真正意义上的抗议时刻，是一个完全非预设的瞬间：一名舞者掏出一面旗帜，支持加沙和苏丹，随即被安保人员迅速带离球场，消失在体育场深处。
the only moment of actual protest during that show is actually a totally unscripted moment where a dancer pulls out a flag in support of, I believe, Gaza and Sudan and is summarily whisked off of the field into the bowels of the stadium By security.
被安保人员带走，因为显然，当那一刻发生时，你会想：这是有意安排的，还是无意的，但其实是有意的？
By security because that is not obviously, you have this moment right when it happened and say, oh, was that intended but not intended but intended?
但实际上，并不是。
But actually, no.
这在超级碗中是一种传统。
And this is a tradition at the Super Bowl.
对吧？
Right?
我们谈到珍妮特·杰克逊和那次服装故障，我认为，人们至今仍在争论是否
We talk about Janet Jackson and the wardrobe malfunction that I think, you know, people still debate whether
或者提醒人们，那是贾斯汀·汀布莱克撕下珍妮特·杰克逊的
or remind people was the moment at which Justin Timberlake ripped Janet Jackson's
服装暴露
Costume revealing
她的乳房。
Her breast.
她的乳房和一些珠宝。
Her breast and some jewelry.
是的。
Yes.
直到今天，人们仍在争论这是否是故意的，是否属于表演的一部分以吸引关注，但毫无疑问，这引发了无数联邦通信委员会的投诉，并成为持续数年乃至数十年的争议。
And people still to this day argue about whether or not that was intended, whether that was part of the show to drive attention, but certainly drove countless FCC complaints and became a years, if not decades long controversy.
从那以后，我们还经历过类似时刻，比如当王子本应选择安全表演时，却用吉他做出极其阳具化的动作。
And we've had these moments since then, you know, whether it's Prince going super phallic with his guitar when he's supposed to be the safe choice.
有一年，麦当娜表演时，活动型说唱歌手MIA比出了中指，这引发了长达数日的新闻热潮。
You have one year Madonna performs, and MIA, the sort of activist rapper throws a middle finger up, and that becomes a days long news cycle.
对吧？
Right?
你需要这些非剧本的、插句式的瞬间，来保持节目的热度，因为你不想让人们去上厕所或者去热他们的玉米片。
Like, you need these little moments of off script parenthesis, question mark, close parenthesis, to keep this thing spicy because you don't want people to use the bathroom or go heat up their nachos.
不。
No.
我明白这一点。
And I get that.
但即便如此，NFL决定邀请坏兔子出演，在我看来，对于一个本想总体上避免与世界上最强大人物发生冲突的机构来说，这仍然是个冒险的决定。
But still, the NFL's decision to book Bad Bunny still strikes me as a risky choice for an organization that's trying to theoretically, on the whole, avoid a confrontation with the most powerful man in the world.
特朗普曾因更小的事就针对过一些机构。
Trump has been known to target institutions for far less.
可能比这更重要的，是收视率。
What's what's more important potentially than that, and that is ratings.
你希望人们继续观看。
You want people to keep watching.
你希望广告库存保持价值。
You want the ad inventory to remain valuable.
你怎么做呢？
How do you do that?
通过打造一档有数千万，甚至上亿人想观看的节目。
By creating a show that many tens, if not hundreds of millions of people will want to watch.
在现代音乐时代，任何音乐类型中能达成这一点的艺人寥寥无几。
In the modern music era, there's a vanishingly small number of performers in any genre who can achieve that.
你有泰勒。
You have Taylor.
泰勒因为各种原因拒绝了，我们可以聊聊这些原因。
Taylor says no for a variety of reasons, which we can talk about.
泰勒真的拒绝了吗？这是个确定的事实吗？
Is that an established fact that Taylor said no?
泰勒·斯威夫特表示，杰伊·泽和Rock Nation曾温和地向她提出过邀请。
So what Taylor Swift has said is that Jay Z and Rock Nation made a soft approach to her.
他们询问她是否可能有兴趣。
They asked if she might potentially be interested.
但泰勒·斯威夫特告诉吉米·法伦，她并没有收到正式的邀请，随后还做了一个小动作，暗示她想把这场橄榄球盛宴留给她的未婚夫、酋长队的特拉维斯·凯尔西，而不把自己的事业带入他的领域。
But Taylor Swift told Jimmy Fallon that she was not given a hard offer, and then sort of did a little dance indicating that she wanted to leave the football to her fiance, Travis Kelce of the Chiefs, and not bring her business into his business.
我们应该注意到，他并没有出席超级碗。
He's not at the Super Bowl, we should note.
显然，他花更多时间陪伴家人。
Obviously, he's spending more time with his family.
不过，我想让这个观点更复杂一些：班尼·布兰科被选为超级碗表演嘉宾似乎是个疯狂的选择，但从另一个角度看，他才是超级碗唯一合适的人选。
I do wanna complicate this idea, though, that Bad Bunny is such a crazy choice for the Super Bowl because looked at another way, he's the only choice for the Super Bowl.
他基本上是这一年表现最出色的人。
He's basically the guy who had the biggest year.
看看格莱美奖的提名名单。
Look at the Grammy nominations.
他在超级碗前一周的格莱美奖上是绝对的主角，就像去年肯德里克·拉马尔在超级碗前一周的格莱美奖上是主角一样。
He's the star of the Grammy Awards the week before the Super Bowl in the same way that Kendrick was the star of the Grammy Awards the week before the Super Bowl last year.
他是音乐界最具影响力的人，既然超级碗的核心就是维持和放大影响力，那为什么不让他登台呢？
He is the most relevant man in music, so why wouldn't you put him on the stage that is all about maintaining and amplifying relevance?
好的。
Okay.
我们再休息一小会儿。
Let's take another short break.
回来后，我想聊聊你认为Bad Bunny会如何应对这一时刻，他登上舞台后可能会做些什么。
And when we come back, I wanna talk about how you think Bad Bunny might meet this moment, what he might do when he actually takes the stage.
我们马上回来。
We'll be right back.
好的。
Okay.
一周后的今天，Bad Bunny将担任超级碗中场秀的压轴表演嘉宾。
One week from today, Bad Bunny will headline the Super Bowl halftime show.
一场不可避免的对抗似乎正在酝酿之中。
The scene is set for what appears to be an inevitable confrontation of some kind.
文化上的、实质性的，你觉得会是怎样？
Cultural, literal, what do we think?
我认为关键问题是，坏兔子能被允许突破哪些界限，他可能会如何违反这些规则和协议？
I think the big question is, what will Bad Bunny be allowed to get away with, and how might he flout those rules and agreements?
在这场演出中，每一个时刻、每一秒、每一个细微的动作都经过精心编排。
Going into this show, every moment, every second, every micro movement is carefully choreographed.
我假设这些安排已经经过公司层级中许多层的审批确认。
It is, I assume, signed off on at many, many, many levels of corporate hierarchy.
每一个细节都经过反复争论、协商，最终达成一致。
It is quibbled over, negotiated, and eventually agreed upon.
每个人都会精准到位，但超出这些范围的又会是什么？
Everyone's gonna hit their marks, but what's left outside of that?
好吧，这么说吧。
Well, so okay.
如果你们能帮我梳理一下，他在这里可能做的各种行为，从最具挑衅性到最不具挑衅性的顺序，我会很有帮助。
It actually would be helpful for me if you guys could lay out the spectrum of the things he could do here from most to least provocative.
这挺有趣的。
I it's funny.
我通常不会用最到最不具挑衅性来衡量事情，因为正如我们之前讨论嘻哈超级碗中场秀时提到的，有些人可能会认为，仅仅存在一场嘻哈中场秀本身就是一种挑衅。
I tend not to think of things in terms of most to least provocative because I I think, as we were talking about with the hip hop halftime show earlier, some might some might contend that the mere existence of a hip hop halftime show is in and of itself provocation.
我个人不这么认为，但确实有人觉得，巴德·邦尼登台表演并用西班牙语演出这一事实本身就是一种挑衅。
I do not feel that way personally, but there are people who who perceive the mere fact of Bad Bunny performing and performing in Spanish at the halftime show as a provocation.
你的意思是，挑衅与否取决于观看者的视角？
You're saying provocation is in the eye of the beholder?
是的。
Yes.
对我来说，我不这么觉得。
To me, I do not feel that way.
巴德·邦尼在表演中完全可能做出极其露骨的行为。
Bad Bunny could do something extremely explicit during his performance.
他可以就移民与海关执法局和驱逐出境发表公开声明。
He could make a public statement about ICE and deportations.
他甚至可以扮演被逮捕的角色。
He could cosplay being arrested.
他可以明确提及亚历克斯·普雷蒂和雷妮·古德的遇害事件。
He could make explicit reference to the killings of Alex Pretty and Renee Goode.
他实际上在表演中可以做很多事情。
There are any number of things that he can do literally within the show.
是的。
Mhmm.
我要说，我个人并不期待这种直接的程度，好吧。
I will say that I don't personally expect that level of directness Okay.
在表演的框架之内。
Within the confines of the show.
但我觉得我们还没谈到的是，Bad Bunny 在表演之外能做些什么。
But I think what we haven't talked about is what can Bad Bunny do outside the confines of the show.
当你在超级碗中场秀表演时，你会获得巨大的关注度。
What you get when you perform at the Super Bowl halftime show is a tremendous amount of attention.
所有人都在同一时间关注着你。
Everyone is looking at you all at the same time.
是的
Yep.
谁又能说他不会表演十二到十三分钟中等程度的、所谓具有挑衅性的歌曲和桥段呢？
And who's to say that he won't perform twelve to thirteen minutes of moderately, quote, unquote, provocative songs and set pieces and so on and so forth.
一旦舞台开始拆卸，就立即发布一份声明、一段视频或一张专辑，对吧？
And the minute that stage gets disassembled, release a statement, a video, an album Right.
直接回应当下时刻的内容。
Something directly addressing the current moment.
对
Yeah.
在我看来，真正的机遇就在这里。
That's, in my mind, where the real opportunity is.
你基本上是在说，把这场表演仅仅视为表演本身那几分钟的内容是一个错误。
You're basically saying that it's a mistake to view this performance as contained to within the actual minutes of the performance.
我当然不会这么认为。
I certainly wouldn't.
而且只是说这意味着什么，就是事情可能在之后发生，也可能在之前发生。
And to just to say what that means is something could happen after, but also before.
我的意思是，格莱美也是一个大舞台。
I mean, the Grammys is a big stage as well.
完全正确。
Totally.
完全有可能，就在你听完这期节目的几个小时后，巴德·邦尼就在格莱美奖上赢得年度专辑奖。
It's completely possible that maybe hours after you listen to this episode, Bad Bunny is going to win the trophy for album of the year at the Grammy Awards.
他可以拿起话筒，对移民与海关执法局或唐纳德·特朗普或波多黎各说任何他想说的话。
And he could take that mic and say anything he wants about ICE or Donald Trump or Puerto Rico.
一瞬间，这就会极大地提升七天后那场演出的热度。
And all of a sudden, that completely raises the temperature on the performance that's gonna follow seven days from now.
七天其实也是一段很长的时间。
Seven days is also a really long time.
我还想回想起2016年，碧昂丝在参加超级碗演出前一周发布了《Formation》。
I wanna even remember back in 2016, Beyonce releases Formation the week before she performs at the Super Bowl.
天啊。
Oh my god.
真是一个时代啊。
What an era.
你们嫌我们土，还搞这种小丑闹剧。
Y'all hate us corny with that little monotty mess.
《Formation》是《Lemonade》的首支MV，其中充满了黑人文化、黑人南方自豪感的象征，涉及新奥尔良、卡特里娜飓风，甚至贝约的表演也带有类似黑豹党革命的主题。
Formation, the first video from Lemonade, has all this iconography for black culture, black southern pride, references to New Orleans, hurricane Katrina even, and Beyonce's performance there, sort of loosely Black Panthers revolutionary themed.
这引发了一场巨大的文化战争。
Comes a huge culture war moment.
福克斯新闻对此大为震惊。
Fox News freaks out about this.
我认为，你正在看到右翼在Bad Bunny中场秀前炒作的，正是这种同样的文化战争煽动性话题。
And I think what you're seeing from the right in the lead up to this Bad Bunny halftime show is that same culture war red meat.
我觉得Bad Bunny喜欢玩弄人们的预期。
I think Bad Bunny likes to play with expectations.
在我们录制这一集之前，本周就已经有新闻头条宣布，坏兔子不会在超级碗上穿裙子，因为之前有传言说那将是他的抗议方式。
You already had headlines this week before we recorded this episode announcing Bad Bunny will not be wearing a dress at the Super Bowl because there was gossip that that was going to be his protest.
因此，你已经看到了关于他可能或不可能做什么来挑战当权者的微新闻周期。
So you're already having micro news cycles about what he may or may not do to thumb his nose at the powers that be.
而且他自己也通过发布一段宣传视频发表了看法。
And and he, right, weighed in himself with this kind of promo video that he put out.
他看起来是在暗示，这场表演将展现他音乐中深厚的多元拉丁文化特质。
He looks like he is signaling that this performance is going to be showcasing the deeply multicultural Latinoness of his music.
没错。
Right.
他以团结的信息为主导。
He's leading with a message of unity.
苹果和NFL为这场表演的预告片所使用的标语是：世界将共舞。
The tagline that Apple and the NFL put on this trailer for his performance is the world will dance.
他展现了各种多元文化、跨世代的
He's seen spinning all sorts of multicultural, multigenerational
多种族的
Multiracial.
各种性别、体型和肤色的多种族伴侣
Multiracial partners of all genders and sizes and colors.
这可能是小野洋子的表态，他想表达的是：我对分裂不感兴趣。
And it's possible that that is Bad Bunny's statement, that he is coming in saying, I'm not interested in divisiveness.
我对音乐的欢乐感兴趣。
I'm interested in the joy of music.
所以我认为，这确实是小野洋子在超级碗上可能采取的一种方式，但这可能会让他受到左派的批评。
So I do think that that is one way Bad Bunny could play the Super Bowl, and that could bring him criticism from the left.
是的。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
谈谈这个。
Talk about that.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，人们会对他有很高的期待，希望他能有力地发声，谈谈这个国家正在发生的事，谈谈特朗普政府统治下拉丁裔和西班牙语人群所遭遇的处境。
I mean, I think there will be heavy expectations that he speak forcefully about what's been happening in this country, what's been happening to Latino people and Spanish speaking people here under the thumb of the Trump administration.
我认为，如果超级碗第二天早上我们醒来，发现他对此事毫无表态，那对他来说恐怕会是一段艰难的旅程。
And I think it will be probably likely to be a rough ride for him if the morning after the Super Bowl, we wake up and he nothing of that sort has
发生了。
happened.
人们会觉得他太过保守了。
People feel like he played it safe.
所以我认为，巴德·邦尼正处在一种非常有趣的拉扯之中：他可能会得罪政府，可能会得罪他的企业赞助方，也可能会得罪他自己的进步派粉丝群体。
So I think Bad Bunny finds himself in this really interesting push and pull where he could alienate the government, he could alienate his corporate benefactors, or he could alienate his own progressive fan base.
我的观点是，他应该三者都得罪，因为这只会让他更出名、更成功。
And my contention is he should do all three because that will only make him more famous and more successful.
但你刚才说的这一点很有趣，因为我一直觉得，这场表演对NFL来说风险极高，因为周围到处都是地雷。
But what's interesting about what you're saying right here is that I've been thinking about this performance as extremely risky for the NFL with all these landmines out there.
你是在说这对巴德·邦尼来说也有风险吗？
You're telling me it's also risky for Bad Bunny.
而且这场表演不仅仅是一次性的事件，对吧。
And since this performance is not just a one single event thing Yep.
由于新闻周期已经延续并从现在或在此之前就开始了，风险也从现在开始了。
Since the news cycle extends and begins now or before this moment, the risks begin now.
对吧？
Right?
比如，如果他赢得了格莱美奖却没发表任何声明，我不知道质疑会不会甚至更早开始
Like, if if he wins a Grammy and he doesn't make a statement, I wonder if the questions begin even
旁观者们就开始议论纷纷了。
the peanut gallery starts chattering.
我要说的是，作为一名专注于音乐产业的记者，多年来见证巴德·邦尼崛起最引人入胜和令人兴奋的地方，就是他有多么灵活、精明，甚至有点狡猾。
What I will say is the thing that's been most compelling and exciting about watching Bad Bunnies rise over the years as a reporter focused on the music business is just how nimble and savvy and borderline tricky he's been.
他真的很难被捉摸。
He's really hard to pin down.
他总是在颠覆人们的预期。
He's always subverting expectations.
他可能不会在你希望他发声时开口，但他会在觉得自己必须发声时站出来。
He may not speak out when you want him to, but he speaks out when he feels like he needs to.
他的音乐总是在出人意料的方向上不断转变。
His music is constantly swerving in unexpected directions.
他完全不受任何人或任何事物的束缚。
He is very much not beholden to anyone or anything.
我认为这种自由感，既让人们喜爱随着他的音乐起舞，
And I think that sense of freedom is both what people love about dancing to his music
是的。
Yeah.
也让人去思考和观察他职业生涯中的行事方式。
But also thinking about and observing the way he's operated in his career.
很明显，我们所有人都会关注，不仅在下个星期天，今晚在格莱美奖颁奖礼上，正如你所说，从现在起直到那一刻的每一个瞬间，都会看这件事如何发展。
Well, what is clear is that we're all gonna be watching, not just next Sunday, but tonight at the Grammys, and as you said, basically, every moment up until then to see how this all plays out.
谢谢你，约翰。
Thank you, John.
谢谢你，乔。
Thank you, Joe.
这真的非常有趣。
It's been really fun.
谢谢你，娜塔莉。
Thanks, Natalie.
感谢邀请我们。
Thanks for having us.
今天的节目由蒂娜·安塔利尼制作，并得到亚历克斯·巴隆的帮助。
Today's episode was produced by Tina Antalini with help from Alex Barron.
节目由温迪·多尔编辑，由罗文负责录音。
It was edited by Wendy Doerr and engineered by Rowan.
节目包含黛安·王和丹·鲍威尔创作的原创音乐。
It contains original music by Diane Wong and Dan Powell.
如果你想了解更多关于乔和约翰的内容，今晚格莱美奖结束后，他们都会在社交媒体上进行实时聊天。
If you wanna hear more from Joe and John, tonight after the Grammys, they'll both be chatting live on social media about it.
他们的社交媒体账号是，下周超级碗巴德·邦尼表演结束后，他们还会在自己的YouTube频道进行直播。
Their handle is at They'll also be live on their YouTube channel immediately following Bad Bunny's performance next week at the Super Bowl.
今天的《周日日报》就到这里了。
That's it for the Sunday daily.
我是娜塔莉·凯特罗夫。
I'm Natalie Ketrowef.
明天见。
See you tomorrow.
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