特朗普在明尼阿波利斯改变策略

这是A。

This is A.

O。

O.

斯科特。

Scott.

我是《纽约时报》的评论员。

I'm a critic at The New York Times.

我和其他评论员所做的工作，与《纽约时报》所有记者每天致力于为您带来清晰、视角，最重要的是对世界更深刻理解的事业是一体的。

What I do and what the other critics here do is part of the same project that all of the journalists at The New York Times work on every day to give you clarity and perspective, and above all, a deeper understanding of the world.

当您订阅《纽约时报》时，不仅仅是了解头条新闻，而是了解所有事物是如何相互关联的。

When you subscribe to The New York Times, it's not just here are the headlines, but here's the way everything fits together.

如果您想订阅，请前往 nytimes.com/subscribe。

If you'd like to subscribe, please go to nytimes.com/subscribe.

来自《纽约时报》，我是迈克尔·比尔巴罗。

From New York Times, I'm Michael Bilbaro.

这是《每日新闻》。

This is The Daily.

今天，我们讲述亚历克斯·普雷蒂之死的后续影响如何迫使特朗普总统改变在明尼阿波利斯的政策，以及人们对于这些改变是实质性的还是仅具象征意义的争论。

Today, the story of how the fallout from Alex Preti's death forced president Trump to change course in Minneapolis and the debate over whether those changes are real or merely symbolic.

我采访了白宫记者佐兰·卡诺·亚姆斯和泰勒·佩吉。

I spoke with White House reporters, Zolan Kano Yams and Tyler Pager.

今天是1月28日，星期三。

It's Wednesday, January 28.

佐兰和泰勒，我们现在是在周二下午与你们对话，此时特朗普总统显然已决定试图传递一个信号：他希望改变或至少调整其政府在亚历克斯·普雷蒂遇害后引发广泛愤怒的移民打压政策基调。

Zolan and Tyler, we are having this conversation with you on Tuesday afternoon at this moment when president Trump has clearly decided to try to telegraph that he wants to change course or at least change the tone around his administration's immigration crackdown in Minneapolis following the killing of Alex Preti and all of the outrage it inspired.

我们将探讨这一改变究竟是深刻还是流于表面。

And we're gonna talk about how meaningful or superficial that change really is.

但泰勒，我们先来梳理一下普雷蒂死后几天内幕后究竟发生了什么。

But, Tyler, let's first talk through what's actually happened behind the scenes in the days since Preti's death.

所以，迈克尔，这个周末的一个有趣之处在于，这是冬季少有的唐纳德·特朗普留在华盛顿、没有前往佛罗里达州棕榈滩他那位于马阿拉歌的俱乐部和住所的周末。

So, Michael, one of the interesting things just about this weekend is that it's one of the rare weekends in the winter where Donald Trump is in Washington and not in Palm Beach, Florida at his club and residence, Mar A Lago.

嗯嗯

Mhmm.

特朗普留在华盛顿的原因是他正在白宫为关于他妻子梅拉尼娅的新纪录片举办特别首映。

And the reason that Trump stayed in Washington was because he was hosting a special premiere at the White House for the new documentary about his wife, Melania.

对。

Right.

因此，总统整个周末花了很多时间在椭圆形办公室和椭圆形办公室旁的餐厅观看有关明尼阿波利斯事件和亚历克斯·普雷蒂遇害的媒体报道。

And so the president is spending a lot of the weekend in the Oval Office and in the dining room off the Oval Office watching media coverage of what's going on in Minneapolis and the shooting of Alex Preti.

他大部分时间都在看福克斯新闻，但也会换台。

He spent a lot of the time watching Fox News but flips around channels.

另一名美国公民在明尼阿波利斯被联邦特工枪杀。

Another American citizen has been shot dead by federal agents in Minneapolis.

特朗普政府为特工的行为辩护。

The Trump administration is defending the agents' actions.

本周的

This week's

我刚看到一片批评声，指责当局对明尼阿波利斯这起死亡事件的应对和枪杀行为。

And just saw this cacophony of voices criticizing the response and the killing of this man in Minneapolis.

美国公众应该感到震惊，因为特朗普政府如此轻易地撒谎，甚至在你亲眼看到证据时仍当面撒谎。

It should freak the American public out that the Trump administration lies this easily, will lie to your face when you can see the evidence for yourself.

特朗普政府官员称他为国内恐怖分子，而他手里拿着的只不过是一部手机。

He was called by the Trump administration officials a domestic terrorist when all he had in his hand was a cell phone.

美国人现在不喜欢他们所看到的一切。

Americans don't like what they're seeing right now.

没人喜欢联邦特工闯入他们的州。

Nobody likes feds coming into their state.

那么，现在的目标是什么？

And so what's the goal right now?

这种批评值得注意且罕见，因为反对他的不只是民主党人，也不是共和党中最常发声的批评者。

And this criticism is notable and rare because it's not just Democrats, and it's not the usual loudest critics in the Republican party that are pushing back on him.

参议员比尔·卡西迪称这一情况令人不安，并写道，移民与海关执法局和国土安全部的信誉正面临危机。

Senator Bill Cassidy calling the situation disturbing, writing the credibility of ICE and DHS are at stake.

李 senator

Senator Lee

你有参议员比尔·卡西迪，他在社交媒体上表示，这起枪击事件令人极度不安。

You've got senator Bill Cassidy who said on social media that the shooting was incredibly disturbing.

汤姆·蒂利斯也呼吁展开调查。

Tom Tillis called for an investigation as well.

这显然是对白宫的显著抵制，尤其是对一个要求党内忠诚的白宫。

That's notable pushback against this White House, particularly a White House that demands loyalty from its party.

除了共和党议员之外，甚至一些立场亲政府的媒体人士，比如福克斯新闻的特雷·戈迪和玛丽亚·巴蒂罗莫，也批评了高级政府官员的言论。

And beyond the Republican lawmakers, even some sympathetic media figures like Fox News hosts Trey Gowdy and Maria Bartiromo were also criticizing the rhetoric from senior administration officials.

你已经收集了证据，你说过。

You you've collected the evidence, you said.

对吧？

Right?

你手里有那把手枪吗？

You have the handgun in your possession?

没错。

That's right.

他是如何使用那把手枪威胁边境巡逻人员的？

And and how was he using that handgun in terms of threatening border patrol?

威胁是什么？

What was the threat?

他带着他的摄像机。

He had his camera.

对吧？

Right?

他正在拍摄。

He was filming it.

迈克尔，这还没算上特朗普如果收看MSNBC或CNN会看到的内容。

And, Michael, that's to say nothing of what Trump would have seen if he tuned into MS Now or CNN.

你看这些视频时看到了什么？

What do you see when you watch those videos?

处决。

Execution.

彻底的处决。

An absolute execution.

他那里没有借口，每个角度都清楚地显示了这一点。

He there's no there every angle shows it.

当他的身体已经毫无生气地躺在地上时，他们仍然向他开枪。

And they continue to fire bullets at him while his body was lifeless on the ground.

官员们声称，政府基本上枪杀了这个人，并且处理得一团糟。

Where officials were saying that the government basically gunned down this man and bungled the response.

这些谎言带来的影响不仅仅是误导。

The lies do more than mislead.

它们为不可原谅的行为提供了正当性。

They justify the unjustifiable.

在国土安全部、移民和海关执法局以及海关与边境保护局缺乏问责的情况下，我们必须坚守真相。

And in the absence of accountability from the Department of Homeland Security, from ICE, from Customs and Border Protection, it is up to us to hold on to the truth.

对。

Right.

我看了部分报道，基本上是政府谋杀了这个人，然后在明显与视频证据相矛盾的情况下，系统性地撒谎掩盖事实。

I caught some of that coverage, and it was basically the government has murdered this man and then systematically lied about what happened in the face of video that very clearly contradicted it.

完全正确，迈克尔。

Absolutely, Michael.

总统关心的并不是事件本身。

And what the president was concerned about was not necessarily the incident itself.

你知道，他对一名男子被杀感到震惊。

You know, he was disturbed that a man had been killed.

但迈克尔，他真正担心的是，这场混乱和由此产生的叙事掩盖了他在移民执法和美墨边境问题上所取得的所有进展。

But, Michael, what he was really worried about was that this chaos, this narrative was overshadowing all of the progress he felt he has made on the issue of immigration enforcement and the border with Mexico.

这些议题关乎他的政治身份核心。整个周末，总统都在与助手和盟友交谈，抱怨这个叙事被使用武力和一名男子被杀的事件所主导，这分散了他想要强调的信息——即他已经封锁了边境，并正在清除他所说的国内最暴力的无证移民。

These are issues that are core to his political identity, and the president was talking to aides and allies throughout the weekend and venting about how the narrative was being overtaken by this use of force and by the killing of a man, and it was distracting from the message that he wanted to be driving home, which was that he had sealed the border, and he was getting rid of, in his parlance, the most violent undocumented immigrants in the country.

多兰，我们是什么时候开始看到他做出相应反应的？

And, Dolan, when did we start to see him reacting accordingly?

周日晚上，一份与特朗普总统的采访刊登在《华尔街日报》上，他在其中发表了对他而言相对克制的言论。

Late Sunday night, an interview with the Wall Street Journal published with president Trump in which he made somewhat measured comments for him.

他实际上表示愿意对这起枪击事件展开调查，并称其政府正在审查该事件，最终会得出结论。

He actually expressed a willingness in an investigation into this shooting and said that his administration was reviewing the shooting and that eventually they would come out determination.

这些言论与总统在仅仅二十四小时前对这起枪击事件的言论截然不同。

These comments are starkly different from the way the president was talking about this shooting even just twenty four hours before.

对。

Right.

对吧？

Right?

在事件刚发生后，特朗普总统再次将责任归咎于受害者。

In the initial aftermath, president Trump once again laid blame on the victim.

他抨击了明尼苏达州的地方领导人。

He attacked local leaders in Minnesota.

现在他却出来表示，他们想要对此进行调查。

Now he's coming out and actually saying that they wanna take a look at this.

这与总统特朗普在涉及移民局或其移民议程的任何事情上通常的反应性辩护截然不同。

That is really different than the usual reactionary defense we see from president Trump when it comes to anything really involving ICE or his immigration agenda.

结果证明，泰勒，这仅仅是公开转向的开端，我不知道你能否继续在这里描述一下。

And it turns out that ends up, Tyler, being kind of just the beginning of a pretty public pivot that I wonder if you can keep describing here.

是的。

Yeah.

事情始于周一清晨，总统在True Social上宣布，将派遣白宫边境事务主管汤姆·霍曼从华盛顿前往明尼阿波利斯领导此次行动。

It starts very early Monday morning when the president announces on True Social that he's sending in Tom Homan, the White House border czar, from Washington to Minneapolis to lead the operation.

几个小时后，我们得知，长期在全国各地领导这些行动的高级边境巡逻官员格雷格·布维诺将离开明尼阿波利斯。

And a few hours later, we learned that Greg Buvino, a top border patrol official who had been leading these operations all over the country, would be leaving Minneapolis.

这清楚地表明，至少在人员层面，正在针对这场可怕的死亡事件进行调整。

And it's a clear sign that changes are underway, at least in terms of personnel, in response to this horrible kill.

至于布维诺的离职，我们再稍作停留——这一点尤其引人注目，因为他曾亲自在明尼阿波利斯现场，毫不掩饰地为移民局和边境巡逻队最激进的手段辩护。

And the Bovino departure, just to linger on that for a minute, feels especially notable because he had literally been on the ground in Minneapolis very unapologetically defending the most aggressive tactics that ICE and border patrol were using.

而且他曾向公众宣称了一些关于亚历克斯·普雷蒂及其意图和行为的言论，但这些说法后来被曝光的视频彻底推翻。

And because he had told the public something that turned out to be completely wrong about Alex Preti and about his intent and his actions that was very much contradicted by the videos that emerged.

因此，突然间，这种行为似乎带来了后果。

And so suddenly, it felt like there were consequences for that conduct.

完全正确，迈克尔。

Absolutely, Michael.

而且我认为，不仅仅是博维诺在传播关于普雷蒂的虚假信息。

And I think, you know, it wasn't just Bovino who was spreading these false messages about PRETTY.

这些说法还得到了国土安全部部长克里斯蒂·诺姆、白宫高级顾问斯蒂芬·米勒的附和，而米勒正是特朗普移民议程的主要设计者。

They were echoed by Kristi Noem, the secretary of homeland security, Stephen Miller, a senior adviser in the White House who is the architect of much of Trump's immigration agenda.

而总统本人则在与这些确切的说法保持距离。

And the president was distancing himself from those exact messages.

没错。

Right.

他并没有像斯蒂芬·米勒那样称普雷蒂是国内恐怖分子。

He was not saying that Preti was a domestic terrorist, as Stephen Miller said.

他也没有像克里斯蒂·诺姆和博维诺所声称的那样，说普雷蒂是企图对边境巡逻人员造成大规模伤害的刺客。

And he also was not saying that Preti was an assassin who was trying to inflict mass harm on border patrol agents as Kristi Noem suggested and Bovino did as well.

因此，那些传播关于受害者最不实言论的个人，某种程度上被边缘化了。

And so those individuals who were really spreading the most inaccurate messages about the victim were sort of being pushed aside.

除此之外，我们还得知，特朗普总统正在与明尼苏达州州长蒂姆·沃尔兹以及明尼阿波利斯市长雅各布·弗莱进行电话沟通。

And on top of that deciding to to pull back Greg Bovino, we also hear that president Trump is having these phone calls with governor Tim Walz and, the mayor of Minneapolis as well, Jacob Fry.

这同样非常引人注目。

This is also pretty remarkable.

就在几天前，特朗普总统还在攻击这些官员，将明尼阿波利斯发生的骚乱归咎于他们。

Just a couple days earlier, president Trump was attacking these same officials, blaming them for the unrest that we are seeing in Minneapolis.

是的。

Right.

而且在

And in

事实上，他的司法部正在对他们展开刑事调查，指控他们阻碍他的移民强硬政策，但突然间，他却与他们进行了据称相当有外交意味的电话交谈。

fact, his department of justice is actively investigating both of them criminally for blocking his immigration crackdown, but suddenly, he's having what, by all accounts, I think are somewhat diplomatic phone calls

与他。

with him.

去和他们聊聊吧。

Just talk to them.

他对此的描述也相当正面。

He also describes it kinda positively as well.

嗯。

Mhmm.

根据这些通话的摘要，迈克尔，看起来他们确实深入讨论了一些实质性问题。

And based on the readouts from the calls, Michael, it seems that they really did get into some substantive issues.

但我进行了两次非常良好的对话。

But I had two very good talks.

我跟雅各布·弗莱和沃尔兹州长都谈了。

I had Jacob Fry, and I had governor Walz.

我的意思是，这些通话都非常顺利。

And, I mean, they were they were great calls.

所以

So

正如总统明确表示的那样，他希望加强州和地方官员与现场联邦官员之间的合作，但民主党领导人也提出了反对。

As, you know, the president made clear that he wanted to enhance cooperation between state and local officials with federal officials on the ground, and the Democratic leaders also pushed back.

首先，我要求对雷妮·古德和亚历克斯的谋杀案进行公正且独立的调查，我们必须能够做到这一点。

First of all, I I ask that we have a fair and independent investigation into the murder of both Renee Good and Alex, and, that we have to be able to do that.

他说，我们会对此进行审视。

And and he said, I we'll we'll look at that.

我们会对此进行审查。

We'll we'll take a look at that.

他们表示，希望对明尼阿波利斯居民遭枪击事件展开真正的调查。

They said they wanted a real investigation into the shootings of Minneapolis residents.

此外，蒂姆·沃尔兹办公室的通报称，总统同意考虑减少明尼苏达州的联邦特工人数。

And also on readout from Tim Walz's office said that the president agreed to look into reducing the number of federal agents in Minnesota.

他承诺说：听着，我会派汤姆·霍尔曼去。

He pledged that, look, I'm gonna send Tom Holman in.

我们会以不同的方式处理这些事。

We'll do things differently.

而且，迈克尔，看起来双方都有机会提出自己的不满，或许还取得了一些突破。

And, really, what it seems, Michael, is that both sides had an opportunity to raise their own grievances and maybe had some breakthroughs.

对。

Right.

因此，到周二下午，我们陷入了一种在特朗普执政期间已经变得相当熟悉的局面，即政府行事过度了。

And so it felt by Tuesday afternoon that we ended up in a situation that we've become kind of familiar with in the Trump presidency, which is the administration has gone too far.

人们非常愤怒。

People are furious.

我的同事们把这种情况描述为——我引用他们的话——自特朗普第二任期就职以来，对特朗普最严重的政治威胁之一。

I mean, our our colleagues described this as, I'm gonna quote from them, one of the gravest political threats to Trump since his inauguration in the second term.

而根据你在这里描述的一切，总统似乎也理解这一点，并想以自己的方式表达：我明白，我准备努力缓和这一局势。

And the president, based on everything you're describing here, seems to understand that and wants to say in his own way, I get it, and I'm ready to try to diffuse this.

迈克尔，没错。

Michael, that's right.

而且，说到这一点，就在我们和你通话时，总统刚刚对福克斯新闻表示，他的政府将努力在明尼阿波利斯局势上稍微降温。

And, I mean, just to that point, as we're speaking to you right now, the president just told Fox News that his administration was going to work on deescalating a little bit the situation in Minneapolis.

但连一个字都没提到特朗普。

But Not a Trump word.

你很少听到这位总统这么说。

Not a word you often hear from this president.

但你看。

But look.

我想，我们现在最大的问题是：这些只是空话吗？

I guess that's the big question we have now moving Are these just words?

你知道的吗？

You know?

这是否只是对强烈政治反弹的表面应付？

Is this just lip service at this point in the response to intense political backlash?

公关而已。

PR.

还是我们正处在一个真正的关键时刻，有望看到联邦政府对美国城市采取的这类打压措施出现切实的改变？

Or are we in the midst here of a real moment where we could see concrete change on the ground when it comes to these kind of federal crackdowns on American cities?

我们马上回来。

We'll be right back.

我们这个新的政治时代究竟是什么样子？

What does our new political era really look like?

全球民主的未来会怎样？

What is the future of democracy around the world?

在数字时代，甚至可能是人工智能主导的时代，书籍、电影乃至整个文化将何去何从？

What happens to books and movies and indeed all of culture in our digital and perhaps AI dominated age?

来自《纽约时报》观点版，我是罗斯·多萨特，在我的节目《有趣的时代》中，我正与塑造这一奇异新秩序的思想家和领导者们一同探索。

From New York Times Opinion, I'm Ross Douthat, and on my show, Interesting Times, I'm exploring this strange new world order with the thinkers and leaders giving it shape.

环顾四周，很明显，后冷战时代已经结束。

If you look around, it's clear the post Cold War era has ended.

美国的力量依然存在，但其主导地位正面临威胁。

American power is still with us, but its preeminence is under threat.

技术创新正在加速，而生育率却迅速下滑，以至于整个国家可能很快就会消失。

Technological innovation is accelerating, while birth rates are collapsing so fast that entire nations may soon disappear.

精神领域正在发生变化，新的神灵——迷幻的、外星的、人工智能的机器之神——正在兴起。

The spiritual landscape is shifting to include new gods, psychedelic, extraterrestrial, the machine god of AI.

这将走向何方？

Where is this going?

没人真正知道，但我正试图找出答案。

No one really knows, but I'm trying to find out.

所以，无论你在哪儿听播客，都请关注《Interesting Times》。

So follow interesting times wherever you get your podcasts.

所以，泰勒和佐兰，让我们进一步探讨一下在广告中断前提出的问题：在所有这些信号和象征表明总统的方针和语气有所转变之际，

So, Tyler and Zolan, let's further pursue the question posed right before the break, which is amid all these signals and symbols of some sort of a change in course and tone from the president.

在明尼阿波利斯，ICE和边境巡逻队依然存在，现实中真的发生了任何变化吗？

Has anything actually changed on the ground in Minneapolis where ICE and the border patrol are still very much there?

政府对自身在该城市角色的看法有任何改变吗？

And has the administration's thinking about its role in the city changed at all?

是的。

Yeah.

所以，即使我们在这里看到了言辞上的转变，但实际并没有太多证据表明地面情况发生了实质性变化。

So even if we've seen a a rhetorical shift here, we really don't have all that much evidence that we're seeing a substantial change on the ground.

明尼阿波利斯的这项行动看起来仍然在活跃进行中。

This operation in Minneapolis still appears active.

我们还听说，仅今天一天，明尼阿波利斯就记录了大约一百起逮捕事件。

We're hearing as well that roughly a 100 arrests were recorded in Minneapolis just today.

因此，目前我们还没有看到地面实际情况与总统在这一议题上的言辞转变相匹配。

So at this point, we have not seen that reality on the ground match the shift in rhetoric from the president on this topic.

泰勒，如果地面情况真的要发生变化，会是什么样子？

Tyler, what would it look like for things to actually change on the ground?

一个明显的举措，迈克尔，就是撤回那些在明尼阿波利斯及其他城市巡逻的边境巡逻人员和其他联邦官员，这些城市的地方领导人都表示不希望这些力量存在。

One obvious step, Michael, would be that they pulled back the border patrol agents and the other federal officials who are patrolling all across Minneapolis and other cities where leaders have said they don't want those forces.

他们会开始减少人数。

They'd start to reduce the numbers.

他们会实际召回这些特工。

They would literally recall these agents.

对。

Right.

另一个可能的步骤是解雇特朗普总统的助手们。

And another step could possibly be that there's firings of president Trump's aides.

有许多总统的批评者，甚至一些他的盟友私下表示，像克里斯蒂·诺姆这样的人可能并不适合领导国土安全部。

There are many critics of the president and even some of his allies privately saying someone like Kristi Noem maybe isn't right for running the Homeland Security Department.

但今天总统走出白宫时带着斯蒂芬·米勒，并对记者说克里斯蒂·诺姆工作表现优异，她绝对没有辞职的打算。

But the president walked out of the White House today with Stephen Miller and told reporters that Kristi Noem was doing a great job, and she certainly was not resigning.

对。

Right.

我的意思是，我认为，要让地面实际情况与言论相匹配——用你的话说，佐兰——另一个迹象是政府采取措施跟进对亚历克斯·普雷蒂遇害事件的调查。

I mean, I suppose the other sign of an on the ground change that matched the rhetoric, to use your word, Zolan, would be that the administration took steps to follow through with an investigation into Alex Preti's killing.

例如，他们可以公布开枪射杀他的边境巡逻队员的身份。

They could, for example, name the border patrol agent who shot him.

他们可以对该名巡逻队员展开调查。

They could open an investigation into that agent.

他们可以逮捕

They could arrest

理论上可以逮捕这名特工。

that agent in theory.

对。

Right.

截至目前，对这起枪击事件的调查并不涉及审查涉事特工的刑事不当行为。

As of right now, the investigation into the shooting does not involve looking into criminal wrongdoing of the agents that were involved in this shooting.

对吧？

Right?

我们已经看到，这个政府不仅将这些枪击事件的受害者归咎于他们，而且在涉及联邦特工的真正不当行为时，也从未真正展开调查。

We've seen that this administration not only has blamed the victims of these shootings, but has also refrained from actually investigating real wrongdoing when it comes to the federal agents involved here.

所以，这将是一个积极的举措。

So that would be an active step.

而且，你知道，ICE通常在所有这些城市都有存在，但值得提醒大家的是，这次行动有所不同——明尼阿波利斯现在有这一大堆联邦特工。

And, you know, yes, ICE does typically have a presence in all these cities, but it's worth reminding folks that we have something different with this kind of operation, which is that you have this alphabet soup of federal agents that are in Minneapolis right now.

这不是一次普通的移民与海关执法局部署。

It's not a normal ICE deployment.

你还会看到边境巡逻队，他们也参与了这次枪击事件，以及其他联邦特工。

You also have border patrol, which was involved in this shooting as well as other federal agents.

因此，他们可以采取的另一项措施是，将这次行动转变为更典型的移民与海关执法局部署，而不是现在这种由穿着迷彩服的各类联邦特工混杂在一起、在明尼阿波利斯街头游行的局面。

So that's another step they could take in just sort of turning this into a more typical ICE deployment rather than one where you have this hodgepodge of federal agents donned in camouflage that are now currently marching through the streets of Minneapolis.

对。

Right.

而且似乎采取了一种高度敏感的应对方式，比如在亚历克斯·普伦蒂斯的案例中，仅仅因为有人把手机举在面前。

And seemingly with a hair trigger approach to something as simple as somebody holding a phone out in front of them in the case of Alex Prenity.

没错。

That's right.

你不仅会以总统的身份表示，我们要缓和这一局势，还会采取切实措施缩减这一行动，从而进一步促进局势缓和。

You would not only be saying as the president, we're going to deescalate this situation, but actually taking concrete steps to scale back this operation, which could then lead to deescalation as well.

对。

Right.

我的意思是，我某种程度上在重复你刚才说的话，佐兰。

I mean, I'm repeating what you said to a degree, Zolan.

但当你退一步，真正审视一下这里真正不同的地方，除了言辞之外，似乎答案并没有多少。

But when you step back and really examine what's truly different here beyond the rhetoric, it seems like the answer is not much.

目前还没有多少。

Not much yet.

对吧？

Right?

这很重要，因为通常在特朗普总统身上，当你经历这些新闻周期时，当他面临政治反弹时——这一点显然很相关。

And and that's important because often with president Trump when you're going through these news cycles, when he's facing political blowback and this one, it's definitely relevant.

他往往采取一种两面手法。

He kind of all has this two handed approach.

对吧？

Right?

他一方面为联邦特工、联邦镇压以及他的议程进行辩护。

He both has this reactionary defense for federal agents, for the federal crackdown, for his agenda.

但与此同时，当这一议程引发政治反弹、给他带来麻烦时，他又试图与之划清界限。

And then at the very same time, he will try to distance himself from that same agenda when it gets political backlash, when it causes trouble for him.

对。

Right.

佐兰，一周半前你和泰勒从椭圆形办公室出来后，描述说总统对待自己的任期、政策和行动就像个旁观者。

Zolan, when you walked out of the Oval Office with Tyler a week and a half ago after your interview with Trump, you described this as the president conducting himself like a bystander to his own presidency and its policies and its actions.

是的。

Yes.

我认为这又是另一个例子，总统试图把自己当成自己政策的旁观者。

And I think this is another example of that, of the president trying to be a bystander to his own policies.

这位总统曾谈论过大规模驱逐，不仅仅是大规模驱逐，还包括向美国城市部署联邦特工。

This is the president that talked about mass deportations, not only mass deportations, but deploying federal agents to American cities.

对。

Right.

而这正是随之而来的情况。

And this is what's come with that.

这位总统也曾说过，执法部门可以通过举行所谓的‘一个极其暴力的日子’来震慑犯罪。

This is also the president that at times has talked about how law enforcement could deter crime by holding, quote, one really violent day.

这是他在自己竞选期间说过的话。

That's something he said during his own campaign.

是的。

Right.

我们已经经历了许多暴力的日子。

And we have seen many violent days.

没错。

That's right.

但至少在当前这一刻，我们看到的是特朗普总统对自己政策的袖手旁观，而不是无论何种情况都积极捍卫自己的政策。

But it seems at least in this current moment, we're seeing president Trump as a bystander to his own policy and not president Trump aggressively defending his policy no matter the circumstances.

泰勒，如果人们觉得这种语气的转变只是表面文章，根本无法平息明尼苏达州民众的愤怒，也无法满足国会中那些要求变革、要求举行听证会的共和党人——包括参议院内的那些人。

Tyler, if people sense that this tone shift is just a tone shift, really kind of a veneer, It's clearly not gonna satisfy the fury of Minnesotans, of those Republicans in congress who are demanding change, who are demanding hearings, including in the senate.

而且，这尤其无法满足民主党人的要求，他们目前正威胁要阻挠维持联邦政府运转至本周末所必需的拨款法案。

And it's especially not gonna satisfy Democrats who are currently threatening to block funding bills required to keep the federal government open through the end of this week.

是的，迈克尔。

Yeah, Michael.

我们还没有看到这个故事的终结。

We have not seen the end of this story.

就在我们谈话的同时，总统正在回答问题。

And just as we're talking now, the president is taking questions.

当被问到你是否计划将特工从明尼苏达州撤出时。

And when he's asked, do you plan to pull agents out of Minnesota?

他说，我们会做适当的事情。

He says, we'll do whatever's appropriate.

这是总统有权做出的决定。

That's a decision that the president gets to make.

对。

Right.

他并没有界定他会改变立场的条件。

And he's not defining the parameters by which he would change course.

我认为这非常值得注意。

And I think that's really notable.

我认为，随着立法者推进这些关键的政府拨款法案，他们将会向政府提出这些问题。

And I think those are going to be the questions that lawmakers are asking of the administration as they move forward with these critical government funding bills.

就在刚才，我们看到缅因州的共和党人苏珊·柯林斯告诉克里斯蒂·诺姆，她希望暂停在缅因州和明尼苏达州的移民与海关执法局行动。

I mean, we just saw Susan Collins, a Republican of Maine, who told Christy Noem that she wants a pause of ICE enforcement in Maine and Minnesota.

那么，快速问一下，总统及其身边的人在明尼阿波利斯等地由ICE和边境巡逻队制造的局势，是否真的有可能在未来几天引发某种形式的政府停摆？

So and very quickly, is there a real risk that a situation that the president and those around him have created in a place like Minneapolis with ICE, with border patrol, could actually lead to some form of a government shutdown in the next few days?

要做出预测总是很难的，尤其是在涉及国会的时候。

It's always tough to make a prediction, particularly when it comes to congress.

但当你看到不仅民主党人，就连共和党人也对这一行动核心机构表达关切时，正如泰勒所说，你还有一位在拨款委员会中极具影响力的人物，

But when you have not only Democrats, but also Republicans who are expressing concern about the agency at the center of this operation, and as Tyler said, you also have someone who's incredibly influential in the appropriations committee,

苏珊·柯林斯，

Susan Collins,

也同样表达了这种关切。

also expressing that concern.

这对白宫中担心政府停摆的人来说，简直就是红色警报时刻。

That is like a red alert moment for those in the White House who are anxious about a government shutdown.

对吧？

Right?

所以我们必须密切关注接下来会发生什么，但确实有迹象表明，那些本应参与阻止政府停摆的国会议员，也在关注明尼阿波利斯及其他城市在这项行动中的情况。

So we have to watch what's going to happen here, but there are definitely signs that members of congress that would be needed in order to prevent a government shutdown that they are watching what's going on in Minneapolis as well as other cities when it comes to this operation.

你知道，为了结束这个话题，我突然想到一件事。

You know, just to end this conversation, it strikes me.

佐拉，你在这次对话一开始提到，客观地说，总统在过去一年里迅速实现了许多移民目标。

And, Zola, when you talked about this in the in the very beginning of this conversation, that the president has, just objectively speaking, over the past year, quickly achieved many of his immigration goals.

他封锁了边境。

He sealed the border.

他将越境人数降至历史最低水平，几乎成了涓涓细流。

He reduced crossings to a historic low, a trickle.

而随着ICE和边境巡逻队在明尼阿波利斯等城市部署，这里几乎不再有任何争议了。

And then with these deployments of ICE and border patrol in cities like Minneapolis, it no longer feels like much of a debate here.

他把许多人视为成就的事情，变成了自己总统任期内极其黑暗的一章，而这一切本不必如此。

He turned what many see as a kind of achievement into this exceptionally dark chapter of his presidency, and it just didn't need to be that way.

是的。

Yes.

而且，你知道，这项政策比其他任何政策都更让总统感到底气十足。

And, you know, this policy more than any other policy, the president has just been incredibly emboldened.

他身边围绕着一群能把他的冲动转化为切实影响民众的政策的人。

He's been surrounded by people that will turn his impulses into actually a policy that will impact people on the ground.

他一直觉得，从竞选至今，自己在移民议程上得到了本党乃至全国大部分人的政治支持。

He has felt that he has had the political support of his own party and, for the most part, the country when it comes to this immigration agenda, from the campaign until now.

是的，他有时也面临抵制，但他从未在言辞上真正承认过需要退让。

And, yeah, he's he's faced pushback at times, but he has never really even rhetorically acknowledged the need to scale back.

而现在，似乎总统已经意识到，他在这一议题上可能走得过头了。

And now it seems we are at the point where the president has realized that he might have overshot on this agenda item.

事实上，他在这一议程上走得如此之远，以至于如今的舆论形象反而对他不利。

Where, actually, he went so far on this agenda that now the optics are actually not working in his favor.

对。

Right.

这个周期还处于早期阶段，我们还不知道接下来会发生什么。

And it is still early in this cycle, and we don't know what's gonna happen next.

但我们确实已经可以得出一个结论，那就是特朗普总统在得知雷妮·古德被枪杀，或普雷蒂先生被枪杀后，并未因此而缩减这一行动。

But we actually do have one takeaway that we can say already from this, and that's that president Trump wasn't moved to scale back this operation upon learning that Renee Goode was shot and killed or upon learning that mister Preti was shot and killed.

事实上，他最初把责任归咎于这两个人。

In fact, he initially laid the blame on both of them.

当他听说这件事对他的政治声誉造成损害时，才有所行动。

He was moved on this when he heard that it was hurting him politically.

这似乎就是目前他移民政策的制约因素。

That's the guardrail, it seems at this moment, for his immigration policy.

我认为这一点值得注意，当我们试图报道这一政策还会进一步扩张多少，或者是否真的会彻底缩减时，这一点值得我们关注。

And I think that's notable, and it's something we should watch as we try to report out just how much further this is going to expand or if this is really going to be scaled back in definitive way.

好了，佐兰和泰勒，非常感谢你们。

Well, Zolan and Tyler, thank you very much.

我们非常感谢。

We appreciate it.

非常感谢你，迈克尔。

Thanks so much, Michael.

谢谢你，迈克尔。

Thank you, Michael.

周二晚上，白宫 deputy chief of staff 史蒂芬·米勒似乎撤回了他关于亚历克斯·普雷蒂死亡的最初不实说法。

On Tuesday night, White House deputy chief of staff, Stephen Miller, appeared to back away from his original inaccurate claims about Alex Preti's death.

在给CNN的一份声明中，米勒表示，白宫正在评估导致普雷蒂死亡的边境巡逻人员为何未能遵守政府规程。

In a statement to CNN, Miller said that the White House was now evaluating why the border patrol agents responsible for Preti's death may have failed to follow government protocols.

我们马上回来。

We'll be right back.

今天你还需了解的其他信息。

Here's what else you need to know today.

周二晚上，一名男子试图袭击民主党国会议员、特朗普总统经常人身攻击的目标伊尔汗·奥马尔。

On Tuesday night, a man tried to attack Democratic congresswoman Ilhan Omar of Minnesota, a frequent target of personal insults from president Trump.

玛丽·克里斯蒂·诺姆必须辞职或面临弹劾。

Mary Kristi Noem must resign or face impeachment.

这

The

袭击涉及了一支注射器，哦

attack, which involved a syringe Oh

天哪。

my god.

他正在对我们搞破坏。

He's breaking something on us.

事件发生在一场市政厅会议期间，就在奥马尔呼吁废除移民及海关执法局并弹劾克里斯蒂·诺姆之后不久。

Came during a town hall meeting, moments after Omar called for abolishing ICE and impeaching Kristi Noem.

袭击者很快被制服并逮捕，奥马尔没有受伤。

The attacker was quickly tackled and arrested, and Omar was unhurt.

而新的人口普查数据显示，过去一年美国人口增长速度创下该国历史上最慢纪录之一。

And new census data shows that over the last year, America's population grew at one of the slowest rates in the country's history.

人口增长放缓的主要原因是移民人数减少，由于特朗普第二任期的政策，移民人数下降了超过50%，再加上美国出生率的长期下滑。

A major reason for the slowdown was the decline in immigration, which plunged by more than 50% because of president Trump's second term policies, combined with a long term decline in the American birth rate.

总体而言，该国人口增长了约180万人，增长率为约百分之零点五。

Overall, the country's population grew by about 1,800,000 people, a growth rate of about half a percentage point.

本期节目由埃里克·克鲁普克、玛丽·威尔逊和罗布·兹夫科制作。

Today's episode was produced by Eric Krupke, Mary Wilson, and Rob Zivko.

节目由MJ·戴维斯·林恩剪辑，音乐由马里昂·洛萨诺、罗尼·梅斯托和丹·鲍威尔创作，由克里斯·伍德负责技术制作。

It was edited by MJ Davis Lynn, contains music by Marion Lozano, Rooney Mesto, and Dan Powell, and was engineered by Chris Wood.

以上就是《每日新闻》的全部内容。

That's it for The Daily.

我是迈克尔·巴罗。

I'm Michael Barro.

明天见。

See you tomorrow.