特朗普的调查员打破沉默

我是大卫·马尔切塞。

I'm David Marchese.

我是露露·加西亚·纳瓦罗。

And I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro.

我们是《纽约时报》的《访谈》节目的主持人。

And we're the hosts of The Interview from The New York Times.

大卫和我一生都在采访世界上一些最有趣、最有影响力的人。

David and I have spent our careers interviewing some of the most interesting and influential people in the world.

这意味着我们知道何时该提出尖锐的问题，何时该退后静听。

Which means we know when to ask tough questions and when to just sit back and listen.

现在，我们联手每周进行这些对话。

And now we've teamed up to have these conversations every week.

我们会努力揭示那些塑造我们世界的人的某些特质。

We'll try to reveal something about the people shaping our world.

我们也会从他们那里听到一些精彩的故事。

And we'll get some great stories from them too.

这是《纽约时报》的访谈节目。

It's the interview from The New York Times.

请在您收听播客的任何平台收听。

Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

来自《纽约时报》，我是迈克尔·比尔巴罗。

From New York Times, I'm Michael Bilbaro.

这是《每日新闻》。

This is The Daily.

周四，在被任命为特别检察官三年后，杰克·史密斯终于公布了他此前在法庭上被禁止提出的针对特朗普总统的法律论点。今天，史密斯向国会陈述了什么？他的言论为何很可能使他成为特朗普下一轮起诉的目标。

On Thursday, three years after his appointment as special counsel, Jack Smith finally delivered the legal argument against president Trump that he was never allowed to make in court today, what Smith told Congress and why his message is likely to make him Trump's next target for prosecution.

今天是1月23日，星期五。

It's Friday, January 23.

格伦，你能具体描述一下你现在在哪里吗？

Glenn, can you just describe exactly where you are?

我在国会大厦综合体的某个地方。

It's somewhere in the Capital Complex.

是的。

Yes.

我现在位于美国首都的迷宫般建筑群中。

I am in the Byzantine Maze of The United States capital.

我刚从听证会现场出来，杰克·史密斯在那里接受了众议院司法委员会大约四个小时、四个半小时的质询。

I've just come out of the hearing room where Jack Smith spent approximately four, four and a half hours being grilled by the house judiciary committee.

谢谢你听证会后还留下来和我们交谈。

Thank you for sticking around after the hearing to to talk to us.

我们非常感谢。

We appreciate it.

我想先谈谈这次听证会的背景，解释一下为什么我们终于能听到杰克·史密斯的声音——这位特别检察官在特朗普第一任期和第二任期之间，负责了这两项庞大的刑事调查。

I wanna begin with the context for this hearing, the backstory behind why we're finally hearing from Jack Smith, a special counsel who ended up overseeing these two sprawling criminal investigations into president Trump in between his first and second term.

这确实值得强调：这位检察官在很大程度上肩负着决定特朗普是否还能再次当选总统，或者是否会入狱的重任。

And it just seems worth saying this is a prosecutor on whose shoulders, in a lot of ways, rested the very question of whether Trump could ever be president again, or might he have ended up in prison?

从很多方面来说，他确实是整个特朗普时代故事的核心人物。

I mean, he's just so central to the entire story of the Trump era in a lot of ways.

看。

Look.

从2022年底到2023年底，大约一年的时间里，杰克·史密斯可以说是全国最重要的人物之一。

For about a year, late twenty twenty two to late twenty twenty three, Jack Smith was arguably one of the most important figures in the country.

他走向这个听证会房间的道路是一条极其曲折的路。

And his road to this committee room was a pretty torturous path.

在2022年底，为了让大家回忆一下，当时的司法部长梅里克·加兰实际上陷入了困境。

In late twenty twenty two, just to refresh people's memories, Merrick Garland, then the attorney general, is really in a corner.

他不能亲自调查所有针对唐纳德·特朗普的指控，因为他是由特朗普的政治对手乔·拜登任命的。

He can't personally investigate all the allegations against Donald Trump because he was appointed by Trump's political adversary, Joe Biden.

对。

Right.

这明显是利益冲突。

Like a classic conflict of interest.

对。

Right.

因此，他任命了杰克·史密斯，当时他正在海牙担任战争罪检察官，负责接手针对唐纳德·特朗普的两项调查。

So he appoints Jack Smith, who at this point was serving as a war crimes prosecutor in The Hague to take over the two investigations into Donald Trump.

其中一项调查内容稍显模糊，但可能影响更为重大。

One of which is a little bit more amorphous, but probably more consequential.

即唐纳德·特朗普是否在2021年1月6日煽动暴徒攻击美国国会，并试图阻挠乔·拜登当选总统。

Whether or not Donald Trump sicced the mob on the US capital on 01/06/2021 and attempted to obstruct the election of Joe Biden as president.

另一项则简单得多。

The other one was more simple.

事实上，它可以用一张图片来定义——那就是在唐纳德·特朗普位于海湖庄园的浴室里发现的那些装满机密材料的箱子。

So simple, in fact, it's defined by one image, this picture of boxes in Donald Trump's bathroom at Mar A Lago of classified material.

对。

Right.

一个是，他是否密谋推翻选举结果？

One is basically, did he conspire to overturn an election?

另一个是，他是否密谋隐藏那些他明知政府要求归还的机密文件？

And the other is, did he conspire to hide classified documents that he allegedly knew the government wanted back?

这两起案件在问题规模上一大一小，但若他被定罪，后果是一样的。

One big, one small in terms of the issues, but had he been convicted, the consequences were the same.

唐纳德·特朗普将无法担任美国总统。

Donald Trump would not have been allowed to serve as president of The United States.

所以

So

杰克·史密斯全身心投入这两起案件。

Jack Smith throws himself into these two cases.

在他接手之前，大量证据已经收集完毕，但他以强硬的检察官风格著称，更像一名管理者。

A lot of the evidence had already been collected before he ever walked in the door, but he was known as a hard driving prosecutor, more like a manager.

把他想象成一位作风激进的棒球教练。

Think of him as like a baseball manager who has a very aggressive managing style.

他接手了前任留下的团队，但推动他们迅速前进，因为他意识到必须赶在政治风向变化之前加快进度。

He kinda takes the players that he inherited, but he moves them forward propulsively because there is a sense that he's gotta move fast before the political season catches up to him.

简而言之，他最终没能成功。

Long story short, he doesn't really make it.

他成功获得了两项大陪审团起诉书，但调查的时间表撞上了2024年大选的时间表。

He successfully gets two grand jury indictments, but then the investigation's timetable slams into the timetable of the twenty twenty four election.

对。

Right.

唐纳德·特朗普当选后，史密斯不得不撤销这两起案件，因为司法部有政策禁止起诉在职总统，以免干扰总统履行职责。

Donald Trump gets elected, and then Smith has to drop both cases because of the DOJ policy against prosecuting a sitting president because it would interfere with the president's capacity to govern.

嗯。

Mhmm.

于是唐纳德·特朗普宣誓就任总统，而杰克·史密斯也几乎像他突然出现一样迅速消失了。

So Donald Trump gets sworn in as president, and Jack Smith disappears just about as quickly as he popped onto the scene.

他保持低调。

He keeps a low profile.

他知道他是特朗普及其支持者的 targeting 目标。

He knows he's a target of Trump and Trump supporters.

他甚至在职业上都没有任何动作。

He doesn't even do anything in terms of his career.

他只是待在家里，低调行事，尽量避开聚光灯，不想给特朗普或国会任何人任何理由去针对他，基本上就此销声匿迹。

He just kind of stays at home, keeps his head down, tries to avoid the spotlight, doesn't want to give Trump or anybody in Congress any justification for going after him, and essentially vanishes.

我想我们中有几个人曾以为，在共和党执政下，他会一直保持隐身状态，因为他们更希望他所代表的整个章节被埋进历史书里。

I think a few of us imagined that he would pretty much remain disappeared under a Republican controlled government because they would rather the entire chapter he represented just be buried in the history books.

是的。

Yeah.

你可能会这么想。

You'd think so.

对吧？

Right?

但特朗普就是放不下这件事。

But Donald Trump can't let this go.

杰克·史密斯代表了特朗普认为的、针对他的那场大规模迫害。

Jack Smith is the person who represents what Donald Trump thinks is this big grand persecution against him.

这正是他竞选连任以及报复敌人的全部动机和动力所在。

It's the whole rationale and the energy behind his reelection campaign and his drive for vengeance against his enemies.

所以特朗普不断纠缠此事，不断在Truth Social上指责杰克·史密斯精神失常。

So Trump keeps picking at it, picking at it, going on Truth Social, accusing Jack Smith of being deranged.

这对他来说是真正燃眉之急的问题之一。

This is one of the real burning issues for him.

让我告诉你，国会山上有许多共和党人根本不希望再谈论此事，认为在中期选举临近之际，这是一大错误，而且坦率地说，他们觉得这是特朗普总统的一种自毁倾向。

And let me tell you, there are a lot of Republicans on Capitol Hill who never want to talk about this again and think that this is a big mistake as they head into the midterms, and frankly, think that it's a self destructive impulse on the part of president Trump's.

但他坚持要这么做，最终也正是因此，杰克·史密斯今天才在公开场合作证。

But he insisted on it, and ultimately, that is why Jack Smith testified in public today.

当你说到特朗普坚持要这么做时，你的意思是特朗普希望史密斯被带到国会作证？

And when you say Trump insisted on it, you mean Trump wanted Smith to be brought before congress?

是的。

Yes.

我认为，共和党人原本对杰克·史密斯在闭门听证会上作证就会感到满意。

Republicans, I think, would have been satisfied with Jack Smith testifying behind closed doors.

但唐纳德·特朗普特意强调，他希望自己的敌人杰克·史密斯在公开场合作证，因为特朗普认为这将是一个绝佳的机会来攻击他。

But Donald Trump made a point of saying that he wanted Jack Smith, his enemy, to testify in public because Trump presumed that this would be a great opportunity to attack him.

也许史密斯在作证过程中会犯下错误，而这正是特朗普最希望看到的——即对杰克·史密斯提起刑事起诉。

And perhaps Smith would make a mistake in the course of this testimony that would warrant what Trump wanted most of all, which is a criminal prosecution of Jack Smith.

但尽管这次作证对杰克·史密斯来说无疑风险极高，他或许也视其为一个难得的机会，终于能把他和团队花了大量时间构建却从未有机会完整呈现的论点公之于众。

But as risky as this testimony no doubt must have seemed for Jack Smith as he prepared for it, perhaps he also saw it as an opportunity to finally make the case that he and his team spent so much time building but were never given a chance to ever lay out.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，他真正想做的，是在法庭上向陪审团陈述这个案件。

I mean, what he really wanted to do was to stand in a courtroom and make this case to a jury.

这虽然不完全一样，但却给了他一个机会，去阐述许多原本会在法庭上提出的观点。

This isn't quite the same thing, but it gave him an opportunity to make a lot of the points that he would have made in court.

嗯。

Mhmm.

史密斯并不是唯一面临风险的人。

Smith wasn't the only one incurring risk here.

众议院共和党人非常担心，会给他一个公开平台来陈述针对特朗普的指控，因为史密斯是特朗普迄今为止所面对的最知情、最有纪律、最具公信力的指控者。

House Republicans were very concerned about giving him a public forum to make the case against Trump because Smith is the best informed, the most disciplined, and most credible accuser Trump has really ever faced.

所以所有相关方都把这次听证会视作一场审判。

So everybody involved kind of viewed this as a trial.

共和党人希望借此指控史密斯，质疑他的动机，试图将这些公开披露的信息塑造成史密斯与拜登政府串通、意图摧毁特朗普的形象，尽管他们其实并无确凿证据支持这一说法。

The Republicans wanted to make the case against Smith to impugn his motives, to sort of color some of these public disclosures in such a way that it made Smith look like he was in cahoots with the Biden administration to destroy Trump, even though they didn't really have evidence to prove that.

但对于民主党人来说，这又是另一个机会，让特朗普再次接受审判，并将委员会中的共和党人视为未被起诉的共谋者，他们纵容了唐纳德·特朗普逃避责任。

But for Democrats, it was another opportunity to put Trump back on trial and actually to identify Republicans on the committee as kind of unindicted co conspirators who enabled Donald Trump to get away with this.

而在民主党人看来，我们如今却可耻地为他辩护，转而攻击杰克·史密斯。

And we're now, in the view of Democrats, unconscionably defending him by attacking Jack Smith.

那么，格伦，考虑到这些背景，带我们走进周四上午的听证会现场吧。

Well, Glenn, with all that in mind, take us into the actual hearing room on Thursday morning.

于是你看到这样一幕：你曾在电视上见过无数次——委员会会议室座无虚席，众多摄像机环绕，人们等待着史密斯出现，而他缓缓走进来。

So you have this scene, which you've seen a million times on TV, packed committee room, lots of cameras around, people waiting for Smith to show up, and he kind of walks in.

让我指出一点，他的形象与大多数政客甚至检察官都截然不同。

And let me just point out, he strikes a different figure than most politicians or even prosecutors.

他是一名铁人三项运动员。

He is a triathlete.

他穿着一件修身的蓝色西装。

He's dressed in this slim cut blue suit.

他有着近乎《旧约》风格的面容，留着灰白相间的胡须。

He has this almost old testament face with a salt and pepper beard.

他的整体气质显得冷峻而难以接近。

And his general vibe is kind of stony and unapproachable.

于是他尴尬地站了几分钟，直到他转过身，注意到前排坐着的四名曾在1月6日遭到袭击的国会警察。

So he stands around awkwardly for a couple of minutes until he turns around and notices these four Capitol Police officers in the front row who were attacked on January 6.

突然间，他露出了微笑，与他们目光相接，这似乎给了他力量。

And suddenly, he smiles, makes eye contact with them, and that seemed to fortify him.

是的。

Right.

因为感觉那些前国会警察是来支持他的。

Because it felt like those former Capitol Police officers were there to perhaps support him.

没错。

Exactly.

所以他坐在证人席上。

So he sits down at the witness table.

我们欢迎今天的证人。

We welcome our witness today.

我们将首先为您宣誓。

We'll begin by swearing you in.

请您起立并举起右手。

Would you please rise and raise your right hand?

然后他宣誓，几分钟后，他开始发表开场陈述。

Then he gets sworn in, and a few minutes later, he begins to deliver his opening statement.

乔丹主席、拉斯基首席成员、委员会各位成员，感谢你们给我机会讨论我作为特别检察官的工作。

Chairman Jordan, ranking member Raskin, members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to discuss my work as special counsel.

近三十年来，我一直在共和党和民主党政府中担任职业检察官。

For nearly three decades, I've served as a career prosecutor in both Republican and Democratic administrations.

他一开始先介绍自己的履历。

He starts off by going through his resume.

我不是政客，也没有任何党派忠诚。

I am not a politician, and I have no partisan loyalties.

我的职业生涯一直致力于通过维护法治来服务我们的国家。

My career has been dedicated to serving our country by upholding the rule of law.

他强调，自己职业生涯中所做的一切都是非政治性的，且从未受到任何党派敌意的驱使。

He emphasizes that everything he has ever done in his career has been apolitical and not motivated by any partisan animosity.

今天我在委员会前作证时，我想说清楚。

As I testify before the committee today, I want to be clear.

我支持自己作为特别检察官所做的决定，包括对特朗普总统提起指控的决定。

I stand by my decisions as special counsel, including the decision to bring charges against president Trump.

然后他进入了论点的核心。

And then he gets to the heart of his argument.

我们的调查已获得无可置疑的证据，证明特朗普总统从事了犯罪活动。

Our investigation developed proof beyond a reasonable doubt that president Trump engaged in criminal activity.

第一，根据他收集的证据，唐纳德·特朗普在两起案件中都犯有罪行，在他看来这是确凿无疑的。

One, that Donald Trump, according to the evidence that he collected, was guilty in both cases, definitively in his view.

然后他进一步阐述了法治这一更大的观点。

And then he makes the larger point about rule of law.

如果今天被问及是否基于相同事实起诉前总统，我会无论该总统是民主党人还是共和党人都会提起起诉。

If asked whether to prosecute a former president based on the same facts today, I would do so regardless of whether that president was a Democrat or a Republican.

在这个国家，没有人应该凌驾于法律之上，法律要求他承担责任，因此我就是这样做的。

No one no one should be above the law in this country, and the law required that he be held to account, so that is what I did.

如果基于这些案件的事实而采取其他做法，那就是逃避我作为检察官和公职人员的职责，而我根本没有这样的意图。

To have done otherwise on the facts of these cases would have been to shirk my duties as a prosecutor and as a public servant, of which I had no intention of doing.

让特朗普承担责任——虽然他显然未能做到这一点——对于确保掌权者遵守与其他所有美国人相同的规则至关重要。

That holding Trump accountable, which obviously he was not able to do, was fundamental for ensuring that people in power played by the same rules that all other Americans played by.

对。

Right.

他在这里似乎同时做了几件事。

He seems to be doing a number of things here simultaneously.

他明确表示，我们构建的案件是坚实的，在他看来，本会带来定罪。

He's very clearly saying, the case that we built is sound, and in his mind, would have led to a conviction.

他将这个从未实现的案件与一个更大的问题联系起来，即在特朗普时代，法治能否得以存续。

And he's linking this case that never got to be, that never was, to this bigger question of whether in the Trump era, the rule of law is going to survive.

百分之百。

A 100%.

他不仅在捍卫自己收集的证据以及收集证据的过程，还在捍卫自己提起公诉的决定。

He's defending the evidence that he collected and his process for collecting that evidence, but he's also defending his decision to prosecute.

他捍卫了针对特朗普起诉所依据的原则：没有人能凌驾于法律之上，如果放任特朗普脱罪，将会助长他一旦重新掌权后再次违法的气焰。

He's defending the principle upon which the Trump prosecutions were based, that no one is above the law, and that letting Trump off the hook would embolden Trump to violate the law if he ever regained power.

对。

Right.

接着，史密斯发言完毕后，来自这个监督委员会的议员们开始提问。

And then after Smith is done comes the questioning from members of this oversight committee.

我想知道，格伦，我们能否先从共和党人说起，毕竟他们主导了整个事件。

And I wonder, Glenn, if we can start with the Republicans who are, of course, running this entire thing.

所以，迈克尔，这里的前提是，共和党人无法证明他们最重要的论点，即杰克·史密斯明知与拜登政府串通，意图摧毁唐纳德·特朗普。

So, Michael, the predicate here is that the Republicans can't prove their one big point, which is that Jack Smith knowingly colluded with the Biden administration to destroy Donald Trump.

他们对此没有任何证据。

They don't have any evidence of that.

因此，在缺乏这类信息的情况下，他们转而攻击史密斯调查中的较小细节。

So in the absence of that kind of information, they're going after smaller elements of Smith's investigation.

一个很好的例子就是兰斯·古德。

And a good example of that is Lance Good.

回去。

Back.

来自德克萨斯州的这位先生有五分钟的发言时间。

The gentleman from Texas is recognized for five minutes.

这位来自德克萨斯州的共和党议员询问了史密斯签署的那份宣誓文件。

This Republican from Texas asked about this document that Smith signed attesting that he was sworn in.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你是在2022年11月20日签署的，但当时没有证人在场，这确实有点奇怪，你得承认吧。

You signed it on the 11/20/2022, but there was no witness, which, I mean, you have to agree, it's a little odd.

几个月后，史密斯又进行了一次宣誓。

Months later, Smith had another swearing in.

所以很好，问问史密斯为什么宣誓了两次。

So good and ask Smith why he was sworn in twice.

那么，既然你说你在2022年11月就已就职，为什么在次年的9月14日又再次宣誓呢？

So why did you take the oath of office again on the September 14 of the following year when you say you took the office in November 2022?

你为什么需要

Why'd you need

重复一次呢？

to do it twice?

我的记忆是，我确实宣誓就职了。

My my recollection is that I took the oath of office.

正如你所说，是在二十日的十八日，我当时觉得自己已经受誓约束了。

As you said, it was the eighteenth of the twentieth and felt I was under the oath of office.

我相信，如果你手头有文件的话，我觉得我签过一份宣誓书。

I I I believe, if you have it in front of you, I think I signed an oath.

签了，但没有证人。

Signed it, but there was no witness.

本应经过公证或有证人在场。

There was supposed to be either notarized or a witness.

而司法部长加兰似乎认为这件事足够重要，因此让你在十一个月后再次宣誓。

And apparently, attorney general Garland thought it was significant enough to have you do another oath eleven months later.

这很奇怪。

This is strange.

对吧？

Right?

我不知道为什么，他们让我再签一次。

I I don't know why, they asked me to sign it again.

我不记得曾与司法部长加兰讨论过这个问题。

I don't recall ever discussing this issue with attorney general Garland.

这对我来说简直太离谱了。

Well, that is just wild to me.

所以他们不仅试图削弱他行为的合法性，还实际上试图破坏他任命的法律效力。

So they weren't only trying to undermine the legitimacy of his actions, but they were actually attempting to undermine the legal legitimacy of his appointment.

是的。

Mhmm.

你们在调查特朗普总统上花了多少钱？

How much money did you spend in the investigating president Trump?

另一轮提问围绕着最近披露的一个消息，即联邦调查局

Another line of questioning revolved around a recent revelation that the FBI

不记得了

not recall

支付了线人，以监视1月6日集会人群中的一些人。

paid informants to examine some of the people in the crowd on January 6.

我们知道你给了某人两万美元。

We know you gave 20,000 to someone.

这事儿是上周才被报道出来的。

It just got reported last week.

你们还用美国纳税人的钱，支付了多少给那些我们不知道的保密人员，去追查我们选举出来的总统？

How much more money did you pay confidential people, people we don't know about, with American tax money going after the guy we elected president?

暗示史密斯必须付钱给他人，以收集他调查目标的黑料。

With the suggestion, of course, that Smith had to pay off people to collect dirt on his investigative targets.

关于那笔2万美元，我的记忆是，那不是我支付的。

My recollection regards the the $20,000, which was not a payment from me.

是我批准了联邦调查局向一位保密线人支付款项，该线人正在审查视频和照片资料？

It was me approving a payment by the FBI to a confidential human source who was reviewing video and photographic source?

我不知道这位线人的身份。

I do not know the identity of the source.

我

What I

还有多少其他付款给了这位线人或其他线人？

How many other payments went to this source or other sources?

共和党人提出的主要问题，也是他们在听证会上花费时间最多的，就是关于通话记录和元数据的问题——杰克·史密斯及其团队获取了特朗普、特朗普团队、鲁迪·朱利安尼以及国会九名议员之间的电话通话记录，这些议员正是特朗普施压试图推翻2020年选举结果的对象。

The most substantial issue the Republicans raised and the one they spent the most time on at the hearing was this matter of the toll records, the metadata that Jack Smith and his team obtained on phone conversations between Trump, Trump's team, Rudy Giuliani, and nine lawmakers on Capitol Hill that Trump was pressuring to overturn the twenty twenty election.

格伦，是什么让史密斯获取这些数据的努力对这些共和党人如此有争议？

And, Glenn, what makes Smith's efforts to get that data so controversial for these Republicans?

也许在这里，你需要稍微解释一下史密斯到底做了什么，他是如何做到的。

And and perhaps here, you do need to do just a little bit of explaining about what exactly Smith did, how he did it.

所以

So

通话记录并不是一些共和党人所声称的电话窃听。

toll records are not wiretaps of phone calls as some Republicans have claimed.

它们只是简单的通话记录，包括通话时长、涉及的两个电话号码以及通话发生的时间。

What they are are just simple records of of calls, the duration, the two phone numbers involved, the time that they took place.

史密斯的团队希望获得这些信息，以便建立一套施压国会议员推翻2020年大选结果的时间线。

Smith's team wanted this information so that they could establish a timeline of efforts to pressure lawmakers into overturning the twenty twenty election.

但他们还做了另一件事。

But they also did something else.

史密斯的团队请求华盛顿的一名联邦法官不要向目标人物披露他正在获取这些信息。

Smith's team asked a federal judge in Washington not to disclose to the targets that he was obtaining this information.

根据前检察官的说法，这样做有诸多调查方面的理由，但共和党人却借此强调史密斯团队的行为可疑、不光明正大，并且他们早已认定目标是特朗普总统。

Now there there are a bunch of investigative reasons for doing that according to former prosecutors, but Republicans seized on this to make the point that Smith's team were doing something shady, underhanded, and that they had already concluded that they were going after president Trump.

史密斯先生，2023年1月，您是否传唤了时任众议院议长凯文·麦卡锡的通话记录？

Mister Smith, in January 2023, did you subpoena then speaker of the house Kevin McCarthy's toll records?

是的，先生。

Yes, sir.

我们确实传唤了。

We did.

来自德克萨斯州的两名共和党人将这一点发挥到了极致。

Two Republicans from Texas really drove this point home.

其中一人，布兰登·吉尔，让史密斯陷入了严峻的质询。

One of them, Brandon Gill, really put Smith on the hot seat.

凯文·麦卡锡就任议长后，您过了多少天才传唤了他的记录？

How many days after Kevin McCarthy was sworn in as speaker did you subpoena his records?

我不太记得了，但这两件事毫无关联

I don't recall, but those two things had nothing to

成为众议院最高级别共和党人后仅16天，你就 subpoena 了他的话费记录。

16 do with days after becoming the highest ranking Republican in the House of Representatives, you subpoenaed his toll records.

但更不寻常的一幕出现在他的同事奇普·罗伊质问史密斯，他的团队是否获取了史密斯自己的电话记录。

But an even more extraordinary moment came when Chip Roy, his colleague, asked Smith Wyse Smith's team had obtained his own phone records.

你们是否针对我的记录， subpoena 了我的电话话费记录？

Did you target my records and subpoena my phone toll records?

据我了解，在我成为特别检察官之前，我的记录已经被检察官 subpoena 了。

My understanding is your records were subpoenaed by prosecutors before I became special counsel.

我很感谢那些出色的工作人员，他们发现了那封邮件，让我几周前第一次得知我的电话记录确实被 targeting 了。

I'm thankful for the great staff who discovered the email where I learned for the first time a few weeks ago that my phone records were indeed targeted.

我们联系了AT&T，发现根据这封邮件所示，这些记录已被提供给司法部。

We called AT and T and we've learned that they were given to the Department of Justice as this email indicates.

这件事发生在四年前的2022年5月，当时我并不知情，因此无法提出异议。

This happened four years ago in May 2022, I couldn't object because I didn't know.

我直到大约三周前才知道这件事。

I didn't know until about three weeks ago.

基本上，他们在问，史密斯和他的团队是否监视了共和党国会议员？

Basically, they're asking, did Smith and his staff spy on Republican members of Congress?

对。

Right.

这确实是最让共和党人把史密斯逼入防守的一刻。

This really felt like the one moment where Republicans really had Smith on the defensive.

你

You

还向法官申请了命令，使得那些记录被调取的人不会得知此事。

also sought orders from judges making it so those who were having their records, seized would not know about it.

你甚至没有告诉那些法官，你针对的是国会议员的记录。

And you even didn't tell those judges that it was members of congress whose records you were going after.

如果你今天想这么做，还能得逞吗？

If you sought to do that today, would you be able to get away with that?

当我们获取这些通话记录传票时，是依照司法部政策执行的。

When we secured these toll record subpoenas, it was done consistent with department policy.

你说得对，这项政策后来确实改变了。

You're correct in that that policy has since changed.

他们是因为你的行为才修改了这项政策。

They changed the policy based upon the actions that you took.

格伦，据你判断，这个共和党的策略有效吗？

Glenn, as best you can tell, did this Republican strategy work?

我告诉你吧。

I'll tell you this.

史密斯的纪律性，这可以说是他管理风格的标志，确实为他带来了回报。

Smith's discipline, and that's kind of the hallmark of his management style, really paid off for him.

当时，来自加利福尼亚的共和党人凯文·凯利问史密斯：

There was this moment where Kevin Kiley, a Republican from California, asks Smith

你认为自己犯过错误吗？

Do you believe that you made any mistakes?

对于这次调查的处理方式，你有什么遗憾吗？

Do you have any regrets as to how you conducted this investigation?

你能告诉我你犯过的任何错误吗？

Can you tell me any kind of mistake that you made?

有什么让你感到后悔的事情吗？

Is there anything that you regret?

如果我有什么遗憾，那就是没有充分表达对那些在这些调查中辛勤工作的员工的感激。

If I have any regret, it would be not expressing enough appreciation for my staff who work so hard in these investigations.

史密斯并没有朝那个方向回应。

Smith wasn't going for that.

他只回答说，自己没有充分感谢他的团队。

All he responded with was that he hadn't thanked his staff sufficiently.

他似乎决心不让共和党人占到任何便宜。

He seemed determined not to give Republicans an inch.

但当民主党人质询他时，他的回答要详尽得多。

But when Democrats questioned him, he was a good deal more expansive.

我们马上回来。

We'll be right back.

我是乔纳森·斯旺。

I'm Jonathan Swan.

我是《纽约时报》的记者。

I'm a reporter at The New York Times.

你知道，当人们想到媒体时，比如你最爱的播客、有线新闻、访谈节目等等，我认为可以说，我和《纽约时报》的同事们处于这个光谱中比较不那么光鲜的一端。

You know, when people think about the media, your favorite podcast, you know, cable news, panels, and different things, I think it's fair to say that myself and my reporting colleagues at the New York Times exist at the more unglamorous end of that spectrum.

我们的工作是挖掘出为这些讨论提供基础的事实。

Our job is to dig out the facts that provide a foundation for these conversations.

这些事实并不会凭空出现。

These facts don't just come out of the ether.

这需要记者花费数小时与消息来源交谈，查找文件。

It requires reporters to spend hours upon hours talking to sources, digging up documents.

此外，如果报道的内容是某个有权势的人不希望见报的，就会面临诉讼威胁等各种问题。

Also, if the story is a story that a powerful person doesn't want in print, there's threats of lawsuits and all kinds of things.

所以这是一项规模庞大的工作。

So it's a really massive operation.

现在愿意在如此程度上投资新闻业的地方已经不多了。

There aren't that many places anymore who invest at that level in journalism.

如果没有资金充足且严谨的自由媒体，掌权者就会有更大的空间为所欲为。

Without a well funded and rigorous free press, people in power have much more leeway to do whatever the heck it is that they wanna do.

如果你认为让记者深入挖掘信息是值得的，那么你可以订阅《纽约时报》。

If you think that it's worthwhile to have journalists on the job digging out information, you can subscribe to The New York Times.

因为没有你们，我们谁都无法完成我们的工作。

Because without you, none of us can do the work that we do.

格伦，谈谈民主党人是如何向史密斯提问的。

Glenn, talk us through how the Democrats approach Smith with their questions.

民主党人基本上想把史密斯塑造成一个英雄。

The Democrats basically wanted to paint Smith as a hero.

我要感谢你为国家服务。

I wanna thank you for your service.

我认为你是一个伟大的美国人，而且你

I think you're a great American and you

作为一个敢于招惹唐纳德·特朗普的人。

As somebody who risk Donald Trump's ire.

你愿意直接向我们和美国人民披露你的调查，这种做法专业、勇敢且充满爱国精神。

Your willingness to directly us and to the American people about your investigation is professional, is courageous, and is patriotic.

一个敢于直面唐纳德·特朗普并让他承担责任的人。

Somebody who is willing to stand up to Donald Trump and hold him accountable.

请注意，我以及民主党的同事们，甚至我的共和党同事在私下交谈时，都对你所尝试做的事情以及你做事的方式充满尊重与感激。

Please note that I and my colleagues on the Democratic side, even my Republican colleagues when they speak privately, have nothing but respect and appreciation for what you tried to do and how you did it.

你与这里许多人不同，是个有原则的人。

You, unlike many here, are a man of honor.

他们也急于保护他，消除人们对他的活动可能产生的任何疑虑。

And they were also eager to protect him and to clean up any doubts people might have about his activities.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我们来谈谈通话记录吧，史密斯先生，因为这一点已经被提出来了。

Let's go to the toll record since that's been raised, mister Smith.

这就是为什么他们立即投入到共和党提出的过路费记录问题中。

And that was why they dove right into this question of the toll records that the Republicans brought up.

对。

Right.

那些电话记录。

Those phone records.

委员会的最高民主党人杰米·拉辛插话，给史密斯机会解释自己。

Jamie Raskin, who is the top Democrat on the committee, jumped in to give Smith the chance to explain himself.

你所做的事情完全合法。

It's perfectly lawful what you did.

解释一下，你为什么需要那些过路费记录。

Explain why did you want those toll records.

我们调查的阴谋与获取过路费记录密切相关，这有助于了解该阴谋的范围、他们试图胁迫谁、影响谁，以及谁在帮助他们。

The conspiracy that we were investigating, it was relevant to get toll records, to understand the scope of that conspiracy, who they were seeking to coerce, who they were seeking to influence, who was seeking to help them.

并且要说明，这一切都只是标准的调查程序。

And to make the point that all of this was just standard investigative practice.

在进行刑事调查时，获取您所描述的非内容通话记录，在几乎所有复杂的阴谋案件中都是常见做法。

In conducting a criminal investigation, securing noncontent toll records, as you described, is a common practice in almost any complex conspiracy.

是的。

Right.

据我回忆，另一位民主党议员泰德·刘也做了同样的事，给了史密斯机会解释他为何要传唤现任国会议员的电话记录。

And as I recall it, Congressman Ted Lieu, another Democrat, basically does the same thing, gives Smith a chance to explain why it is he would subpoena the phone records of sitting members of Congress.

我想简单说一下共和党人提出的关于这些电话通话记录的问题。

I just wanna say a little bit about what the republicans have brought up about these phone toll records.

您认为众议院议长凌驾于法律之上吗？

Do you believe the speaker of the house is above the law?

不。

No.

我认为任何人都不应凌驾于法律之上。

I don't believe anybody should be above the law.

国会议员也不应凌驾于法律之上。

And members of congress are not above the law.

对吧？

Right?

不对。

No.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

That's right.

因为我们不是。

Because we're not.

共和党人试图论证的是，一旦你在进行调查，就不能对参议员或国会议员采取行动。

And what Republicans are trying to argue is somehow, if you're doing investigation, you can't do stuff to senators or members of congress.

别开玩笑了。

Get out of here.

我们只是

We're just

卢此时提出了一个基本观点：你不会分享调查的所有细节，因为你需要保密才能完成工作。

Lou, at this moment, makes the basic point that you don't share all these details about investigations because you need secrecy to do your job.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这太蠢了。

It's so stupid.

我是一名前检察官。

I'm a former prosecutor.

在调查中，你绝不会去获取某人的拖车记录或电话记录，然后告诉他们：嘿，伙计。

You'd never in an investigation go and try to get someone's tow records or phone records and then tell them, hey, dude.

我们马上就要调取你的电话记录了。

We're about to get your phone records.

当然，你不会告诉他们。

Of course, you wouldn't tell them.

他们想给史密斯一个机会，让他反驳那些已经流传数周的共和党指控，即所有这些事情都是阴险的。

They wanted to give Smith the chance to rebut all of these Republican accusations, which have been out in the ether for weeks, that somehow all of this stuff was sinister.

这是民主党人的基本策略，即逐步引导史密斯回顾他调查的每一个细节，以消除神秘感，并给他一个真正此前从未有过的机会，解释他为何如此行事。

This was the basic strategy of Democrats, to kinda walk Smith through point by point the conduct of his investigation to kind of demystify it and to give him an opportunity, which he really hasn't had before, to explain why he did what he did.

是的。

Mhmm.

他们的另一个目标是将焦点从史密斯身上转移，重新聚焦到唐纳德·特朗普身上。

And their other objective was to move the spotlight off of Smith and back onto Donald Trump.

我的共和党同事一直在试图篡改历史。

My Republican colleagues keep trying to rewrite history.

他们声称，特朗普的言辞和行为并未在法律上达到犯罪程度，他并未直接导致国会大厦的暴力事件。

They claim that somehow Trump's words and actions did not legally rise to the level of criminal activity, that he did not directly cause violence at the Capitol.

因此，我现在就想为你澄清这一点。

And so I wanna set that record straight with you right now.

真正推动这一点的民主党人是来自华盛顿的国会议员贾亚帕尔，她几乎要求史密斯逐点逐点地复述他对总统的起诉内容。

And the Democrat who really drove this home was congresswoman Jayapal from Washington, who essentially asked Smith to go over his indictment of the president point by point point by point.

你的调查是否发现，唐纳德·特朗普试图在他输掉的七个州伪造虚假的总统选举人名单？

Did your investigation find that Donald Trump attempted to manufacture fraudulent slates of presidential electors in seven states that he lost?

是的。

Yes.

他是否向州官员施压，要求他们无视这些州的真实计票结果？

Did he pressure state officials to ignore true vote counts in those states?

是的。

Yes.

他是否向他的追随者散布谎言和阴谋论，让他们相信选举被非法操纵对他不利？

Did he spread lies and conspiracies to his followers to make them believe that the election had been illegally rigged against him?

是的。

Yes.

他是否曾向司法部官员施压，要求阻止选举认证？

Did he pressure DOJ officials to stop the certification of the election?

他确实这样做了。

He did.

而贾亚·帕尔通过向史密斯提出可能是最重要的问题来回应质询。

And Jaya Paul, answer questioning by asking Smith probably the most important question of all.

如果我们不追究总统试图窃取选举的责任，这对我们的民主会造成怎样的影响？

How would you describe the toll on our democracy if we do not hold a president accountable for attempting to steal an election?

这一切对民主和法治意味着什么。

What this all means to democracy and the rule of law.

我认为，如果我们不对社会中最有权势的人施以与法治相同的高标准，后果可能是灾难性的。

My belief is that if we do not hold the most powerful people in our society to the same standards of the rule of law, it can be catastrophic.

这传递出一种信息，即这些罪行是可以接受的，我们的社会对此默许。

It's, sends a message that those crimes are okay, that our society accepts that.

我相信，如果我们不追究在此类情境下犯罪者的责任，可能会危及我们的选举制度，危及选举工作人员，最终危及我们的民主。

I believe that, if we don't call people to account when they commit crimes in this context, it can endanger our election process, it can endanger election workers, and ultimately, our democracy.

格伦，我觉得我应该向听众解释一下，无论是民主党还是共和党，其实都没有花太多时间讨论史密斯对马阿拉歌庄园保存机密文件的第二次调查。

Glenn, it feels like I should probably explain to the listener that neither the Democrats nor Republicans really spend all that much time talking about the second Smith investigation into classified documents kept at Mar A Lago.

这在一定程度上是因为一位联邦法官发布了禁言令，使得史密斯很难就该案发表言论。

That's in part because of a gag order that a federal judge issued that made it pretty hard for Smith to talk about that case.

所以我们并不是故意回避这个话题。

So it's not like we're deliberately avoiding the subject.

议员们自己也避而不谈。

The lawmakers themselves avoided it.

确实如此。

Absolutely.

当这场听证会即将结束时，特朗普总统做了一件戏剧性的事情，实际上让他本人出现在了听证会现场。

At a certain point, as this hearing is starting to wrap up, president Trump does something dramatic that puts him, in a real sense, in this hearing room.

这真是一个令人震惊的时刻，极大地削弱了共和党人关于史密斯调查特朗普完全不合理的论点。

It was like a real wow moment that really undercut the Republican argument that Smith was totally unjustified in investigating Trump.

他在Truth Social上发帖，直接命令司法部长帕姆·邦迪调查并起诉史密斯。

He goes on truth social, and he essentially orders attorney general Pam Bondi to investigate and prosecute Smith.

这种事你根本编不出来。

You can't make this stuff up.

这就好像特朗普自己挤进了听证会现场，表明他希望这些人更猛烈地追查史密斯。

It's as if Trump himself had elbowed his way into the hearing room to make the point that he wanted these guys to go after Smith even harder.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我不知道你是否知道这件事。

I don't know if you're aware of this.

特朗普总统正在实时发推文，我想你称之为实时直播吧。

The president Trump is live tweeting live, I guess you call it

就在我们说话的时候，他在Truth Social上发布。

truth socially, as we speak.

你了解关于这次听证会的这件事吗？

Are you aware of this, about this hearing?

不知道。

No.

为这一时刻增添了一丝荒诞感，一位民主党议员告诉史密斯，这件事正在发生。

Adding to the surreality of this moment, a democratic lawmaker tells Smith that this is just happening.

嗯。

Mhmm.

几分钟后，另一位民主党人给了他回应的机会。

And then a few minutes later, another Democrat gives him a chance to respond to it.

我不会被吓倒。

I will not be intimidated.

我认为这些声明也是在警告其他人，如果他们站出来会有什么下场。

I think these statements are also made as a warning to others what will happen if they stand up.

史密斯基本上说，这对我来说无所谓。

And Smith basically says, it doesn't matter to me.

总统可以像他恐吓其他人一样恐吓我。

The president can intimidate me like he's intimidating other people.

我们遵循了事实和法律，这一过程得出了无可置疑的证据，证明他犯下了严重罪行。

We followed the facts and we followed the law, and that process resulted in proof beyond a reasonable doubt that he committed serious crimes.

我不会因为他在威胁我，就假装这一切没有发生。

I'm not gonna pretend that didn't happen because he's threatening me.

史密斯先生，您认为特朗普总统的司法部会找到某种方式起诉您吗？

And mister Smith, do you believe that president Trump's Department of Justice will find some way to indict you?

我相信他们会不遗余力地这么做，因为他们是奉总统之命行事。

I believe that they will do everything in their power to do that because they've been ordered to by the president.