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《纽约时报》应用解锁了吗？
The New York Times app unlocked?
大家都知道，要看《纽约时报》的所有报道，得先订阅。
Everyone knows you need to subscribe to The Times to access all of the reporting.
但如果不用信用卡，就能免费体验《纽约时报》一个月，会怎么样呢？
But what if you could explore The Times for a month for free without putting in a credit card?
现在可以了。
Now you can.
当你第一次下载《纽约时报》应用时，应用里的第一个月是免费的。
When you download The New York Times app for the first time, your first month in the app is free.
这一个月里，你可以绕过付费墙，看看时报订阅用户每天都能看到的内容。
A month to go behind the paywall to see what Times subscribers get every single day.
如果你还没有订阅《纽约时报》，今天就下载《纽约时报》应用，免费获取30天访问权限。
If you don't already subscribe to The New York Times, download The Times app today and get free access for 30.
大家好。
Hi, everyone.
我是娜塔莉。
It's Natalie.
如果你还不是《纽约时报》的订阅者，我们有个消息要告诉你。
If you're not yet a Times subscriber, we have some news for you.
你可以免费阅读《纽约时报》的全部内容，三十天内没有付费墙。
You can enjoy full access to The Times without a paywall for thirty days.
你只需要下载这个应用，第一个月就完全免费。
All you have to do is download the app to get your first month completely free.
如果你已经是《纽约时报》的订阅者，你太棒了。
And if you're already a Time subscriber, you rock.
谢谢。
Thank you.
好的。
Okay.
我们开始今天的节目吧。
On to today's show.
来自《纽约时报》，我是娜塔莉·基特罗夫。
From The New York Times, I'm Natalie Kitroeff.
这里是《每日新闻》周日版。
This is The Daily on Sunday.
现在是八月中旬，这只能意味着一件事。
It's the middle of August, and that can mean only one thing.
全国各地的人们纷纷打开沙滩椅，把遮阳伞插进沙子里，然后沉浸在他们最喜欢的书中。
Across the country, people are popping open their beach chairs, digging their umbrellas into the sand, and settling in to their favorite books.
在所有适合度假时带的文学类型中，对我来说，对数百万美国人来说，有一种类型最为突出，那就是惊悚小说。
And of all the literary genres to bring with you on vacation, for me and millions of Americans, there's one that stands above the rest, and that is the thriller.
惊悚小说霸占畅销书排行榜。
Thrillers dominate bestseller lists.
它们被改编成热门电影。
They get adapted into hit movies.
它们让人爱不释手。
They don't let you put them down.
所以这个月，我们《书评》的同事发布了本世纪五十部最佳惊悚小说的榜单。
And so this month, our colleagues at The Book Review released their list of the 50 best thrillers of the century.
今天，我要和我们的内部惊悚小说专家莎拉·莱尔记者，还有伟大的作家塔芊·法兰奇聊聊，她有四本书入选了这份榜单。
Today, I speak with our in house expert on the thriller genre, reporter Sarah Lyall, and also the great author, Tana French, who has four books on this list.
今天是8月16日，星期日。
It's Sunday, August 16.
莎拉，你是我们《纽约时报》的常驻惊悚小说专家。
Sarah, you are our resident expert on thrillers here at The New York Times.
你在我们的书评版块每月都有专栏，我把你当作我的私人百科，因为这是我最喜欢的书。
You have a monthly column on the genre for our book section, and I think of you as my personal encyclopedia because this is my favorite kind of book.
一直如此。
Always has been.
也会一直是。
Always will be.
其实，我有一群时报的朋友也有同感，我们做过这样一件事：派一个人给你写信，请你推荐必读好书。
Actually, I have a group of friends at The Times that feels the same, and we've done this thing where we deputize one person to write to you and ask for your personal recommendations for must reads.
你说什么我们都会听的。
We will read anything you say.
你是我们的领路人。
You are our leader.
欢迎来到《周日每日》节目。
So welcome to The Sunday Daily.
好的。
Okay.
这个责任很重大，
That's a huge responsibility,
但是
but
我会尽力而为。
I will do my best.
很高兴来到这里。
It's great to be here.
谢谢。
Thank you.
好。
Okay.
我想聊聊你们刚刚一起整理的那份超长的、非常引人入胜的二十一世纪最佳惊悚片名单。
I wanna get to this massive and fascinating list that you all just put together of the best thrillers of the century.
但在开始之前，能不能先给我一个基本概念？
But before we do, can you please just give me a baseline?
在你看来，什么样的片子才算惊悚片？
What defines a thriller in your mind?
嗯，我觉得正如你所说，这是一个很个人的理解。
Well, I think as you say, it's a pretty personal understanding.
惊悚片其实没有一个真正的定义。
There's no real definition of a thriller.
但我会说，核心上，它必须有很多悬念。
But I would say, at the heart, it has to have a lot of suspense.
它得有一个推动你前进的情节。
It has to have a plot that moves you along.
你得迫不及待想知道发生了什么。
You have to be dying to find out what happened.
那神秘元素呢？
And what about the mystery element?
那是必须的吗？
Is that a necessity?
嗯，神秘是个很宽泛的词。
Well, mystery is a very broad term.
从某种意义上说，任何你真正喜欢的书里都有某种悬疑或神秘的元素。
And in some sense, sort of any book that you really love, there's some sort of thriller mystery element in it.
比如，夏洛特能不能救下威尔伯？
I mean, is Charlotte gonna be able to save Wilbur, for example?
那是个很好的悬念。
That's a great mystery.
出自《夏洛的网》。
From Charlotte's Web.
出自《夏洛的网》。
From Charlotte's Web.
对。
Yeah.
有道理。
Fair enough.
好的。
Okay.
那你和这个类型的渊源是怎样的？
So what's your origin story with the genre?
比如，你是怎么开始接触它的？
Like, how'd you get into it?
我觉得，就像很多七十年代和八十年代初被忽视的孩子一样，我被独自留在家里，身边只有别人留下的各种书。
So I think like a lot of neglected children of the nineteen seventies and early eighties, I was left alone in houses with random books that people would leave there.
不过我得说，我可能确实是从《南茜·德鲁》开始的。
And I I have to say though, I did probably start with Nancy Drew.
跟很多人一样，你知道，那套书特别多。
Like a lot of people, know, there's so many of those books.
我很多词汇都是从那儿学的。
It's where I learned a lot of vocabulary words.
我学会了“secluded”是什么意思。
I learned what secluded means.
好多年我都以为“deceased”是指得了某种重病死掉。
For years, I thought that deceased meant dying of some awful disease.
后来才明白原来就是死了的意思。
Like, I didn't realize it was just dying.
对。
Sure.
然后我就升级到了阿加莎·克里斯蒂的书，那些书在很多家里也常能看到，过了好一阵子我妈才告诉我，阿加莎不是那么念的。
And then I graduated to Agatha Christie's, which often seemed to be in a lot of these houses, and it was some time before my mom told me you didn't pronounce Agatha Agatha.
然后大概五六年级的时候，有本书叫《银冠》，是罗伯特·C·奥布莱恩写的，他是个很棒的儿童作家。
And then when I was probably in fifth or sixth grade, there was this book called The Silver Crown by Robert c O'Brien, a great children's writer.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我朋友米歇尔有一本，我们当时在她爸妈的旅行车后座，从科德角开车回纽约，晚上，周末过后，还拿着手电筒。
And my friend Michelle had one copy of it, and we were in the back of her parents' station wagon driving from Cape Cod to New York at night after some weekend with a flashlight.
我们俩都特别想知道结局，就每人读一章，然后不情愿地递给对方。
And we were both, like, desperate to read the find out what happened, and we'd each read a chapter and then unwillingly hand it over to the other person.
我读得比她快三倍，我就催她，快点快点。
I read, like, three times as quickly as she did, and I'm like, hurry up.
我们一边吃巧克力曲奇，那感觉太棒了。
And we were eating chocolate chip cookies, and it was so incredible.
对。
Yeah.
那是一种很深刻的体验。
It's a visceral experience.
这是一种身临其境的体验。
It's a visceral experience.
你简直对这本书如饥似渴。
You're literally ravenous for the book.
你就像在把它吃掉一样。
You're you're eating it.
嗯，是它在吞噬你。
Well, it's eating you.
而且，你知道，有些书就是这样，比如我第一次读《无罪的罪人》时，因为我在上班。
And, you know, with some of them, like, I I remember when I first read Presumed Innocent, because I was at work.
我偷偷把书放在腿上读，不想让老板发现我没在工作，我就那样读。
I was trying to read it on my lap so my boss wouldn't see that I wasn't working, and I was reading.
晚上回家时，我试着在出租车里读，然后我熬夜，我想，整晚都在读。
I tried to read it in the taxi on the way home at night, and I stayed up, I think, all night.
整晚。
All night.
因为我太想知道后来发生了什么。
Because I wanted so much to find out what happened.
对。
Yeah.
当你真正沉浸在这些书里的时候，它们会紧紧抓住你，这正是它们的魅力所在。
There's something that when you're really into these books, which is the whole point of them, they grip you.
它们不会让你放手。
They don't let you go.
感觉就像你跟这本书有了一段秘密恋情，你知道吗？
It feels almost like you're having this, like, illicit relationship with this thing, you know?
你偷偷摸摸地看。
You're hiding it.
它完全占据了你。
It's taking over you.
而且它也让周围的世界显得黯然失色，然后你读完的时候会有点颤抖，有点疲惫，就像吸了某种毒品一样，别人都不理解，你想告诉他们你为什么喜欢，他们却让你闭嘴。
Well, it's also it makes the rest of the world seem very pale in the mirror, and then you sort of finish a little bit shaky, a little bit tired, sort of like you were on some kind of drug and no one else understands, and you try to tell them why you loved it, and they're like, be quiet.
别剧透啊。
Don't give it away.
对。
Right.
而且他们可能不会像你那样喜欢它，那就会很失望。
And they probably won't love it as much as you do, and then that's very disappointing.
那我们聊聊这个榜单，top50。
So let's talk about the 50 best, this list.
《泰晤士报》经常出这种榜单，但这份对我来说特别不一样，我就知道我会一直把它留在电脑书签里，反复翻看。
The Times puts out a lot of lists like this, and this is the one for me where I knew that I was just gonna keep it bookmarked on my computer and go back to it again and again and again.
所以我的问题是，你是怎么来排过去26年里前50部惊悚片的？
So my question is, how do you go about ranking the top 50 thrillers in the last twenty six years?
我们《泰晤士报》书评部做的其实是给一大批不同的作家发了投票表，包含各种类型的惊悚片作家，比如警察办案、心理惊悚、科幻作家，还有书评网红、编辑、出版商。
Well, what we at The Times Book Review did was send out a lot of ballots to a really wide range of writers of different sorts of thrillers, you know, police procedurals, psychological thrillers, science fiction writers, book influencers, editors, publishers.
我们请每个人列出他们的前十名，然后基于这些投票结果整理出了我们的榜单。
And we invited each of them to list their top 10 and came up with our list based on that.
而且唯一的要求就是这些书必须是在新世纪写的，所以2000年以前的都不算。
And the the only prompt was they had to be written in this new century, so nothing before 2000.
我们也没有给惊悚小说下定义，所以大家可以随便选自己想选的，这也是为什么我们榜单上有些书，就像我们刚才说《夏洛的网》一样，你可能不会在书店或者图书馆的惊悚专区看到它们，但它们里面有非常精彩的惊悚元素。
And we didn't define thriller, so people were able to put what they wanted on the list, which is why some of the books on our list, people, just as we were talking about with Charlotte's Web, for example, they wouldn't be in the thriller section of the bookstore or the library, but they have incredible thriller elements in them.
我们来聊聊那本大家共识最多的书，也是榜单上的第一名——《消失的爱人》。
Let's talk about the book about which there was the most consensus, which is the number one book on the list, Gone Girl.
这本吉莉安·弗琳写的心理惊悚小说非常受欢迎，差不多是十多年前出版的。
This massively popular psychological thriller by Gillian Flynn, came out a little more than ten years ago.
后来还拍成了电影，本·阿弗莱克主演。
It was made into this big movie with Ben Affleck.
你惊讶吗？
Were you surprised?
我不……这真的很有意思。
I don't It's so interesting.
你可以在我们网站上看到很多知名作家给我们提交的投票结果。
So if you look on our website, you can also find the ballots that a bunch of famous authors gave us.
几乎每一份名单，可能就一两份例外，都有《消失的爱人》。
Every single list, with the exception maybe one or two, had Gone Girl on it.
大家喜欢这本书，我一点也不意外。
And I'm not surprised that people loved it.
那种悬念感简直让人难以置信。
The suspense is unbelievable.
书里用了最精彩的一批不可靠叙述者。
It has one of the most delicious sets of unreliable narrators ever used in a book.
故事讲的是一个女人失踪了，她是这个男人的妻子。
So it's about a woman who disappears, the this guy's wife.
她讲述了一部分，他讲述了一部分，还有一部分是由她的日记叙述的。
And she narrates parts of it, he narrates parts of it, and parts of it are narrated by her journal.
这三条线索都不可靠。
All three of those things are unreliable.
对。
Yep.
你一个都不能信。
You can't trust any of them.
早期有一章特别精彩，丈夫因为妻子突然失踪被警察审问，他一边回忆一边讲当时自己说了什么、发生了什么。
There's an amazing moment in one of the early chapters where the husband is being interrogated by the cops about the sudden disappearance of his wife, and he is telling us what happened and what he said.
那一章结尾他说了一句，大概是，那是我对警察撒的第五个谎，而且我才刚刚开始。
And at the end of the chapter, he says something like, it was the fifth lie I had told the police, and I was only just beginning.
天哪。
Oh, god.
然后你就会想，他说的哪句话是谎话？
And you're like, which of these things was a lie?
哎呀我……好嘛。
Oh my Okay.
那这份榜单上还有哪些书是那种自然入选、大家都没争议的？
And what are the other books on this list that seem like natural fits that made it, that everyone agreed on?
嗯，我觉得我们说的是一些畅销书，就是那种引起全国热议的书。
Well, I think we're we're talking about books that, were bestsellers that sort of hit the national conversation.
而且其中很多，甚至可以说全部，都被改编成了电影或电视剧。
And many of them, if not all the ones in that category, were made into movies or TV shows.
所以这大大提升了它们的知名度。
So that sort of enhanced their visibility.
所以我们会说，斯蒂格·拉森的《龙纹身的女孩》排在第四位。
So we'd say The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo by Stig Larsen coming in at number four.
米克·赫伦的《慢马》，苹果TV剧集。
Slow Horses by Mick Herron, Apple TV series.
很喜欢。
Love it.
宝拉·霍金斯的《火车上的女孩》。
The Girl on the Train by Paula Hawkins.
《达芬奇密码》。
The Da Vinci Code
经典。
Classic.
《大小谎言》。
Big Little Lies.
你知道，有很多这样的作品，大家都听说过书名，可能也看过电视剧或电影之类的。
You know, there's a whole bunch of them that everybody would have heard the titles and possibly seen the TV show, movie, etcetera.
有什么大惊喜吗？
Any big surprises?
这份名单上有没有哪些书是你一开始根本预料不到的？
Are there books on this list that you just wouldn't have been able to predict going in?
这份名单上有不少书，它们不算传统意义上的经典，甚至不能定义为惊悚小说。
There are quite a few books on this list that wouldn't be considered a traditional classic or even defined as a thriller.
让我惊讶的是，有足够多的人投票给这些非惊悚的惊悚小说，让它们上榜了。
And I was struck that enough people voted for these non thriller thrillers that they made it to the list.
比如《同情者》，几年前获得了普利策奖，这是一本关于间谍的精彩小说，同时也讲述了越南人在美国的经历。
And for example, The Sympathizer, which won the Pulitzer Prize a few years back, which is a incredible novel about a spy, but also about the experience of Vietnamese people in The United States.
我的意思是，这是高级文学，但里面也有一个很棒的谜团。
I mean, it's high literature, but it has a great mystery in it.
《房间》，艾玛·多诺霍写的，这本书讲的基本上是一个从小被囚禁起来的孩子。
Room by Emma Donahue, which is a book about, essentially, a a child who's been raised in captivity.
而且，这又是一本关于家庭和母爱的了不起的书，等等。
And it's, again, incredible book about a family and maternal love, etcetera.
但就是这样，你不会真的把它当成惊悚小说。
But it's and so you wouldn't really think of it as a thriller.
它也在榜单上。
That's on the list as well.
嗯。
Mhmm.
另一本我很高兴看到上榜的书，虽然有点意外，因为它不是传统的惊悚小说，就是唐娜·塔特的《金翅雀》。这本书开头很惊悚，博物馆爆炸，名画失踪，然后按照塔特一贯的风格，变成了一个比各部分加起来更宏大的故事。
Another one that I was really happy to see on the list, although slightly surprised because it's not a traditional thriller, is The Goldfinch by Donna Tartt, which starts in a thrillery way, an explosion at a museum, a missing painting, and then in real Tartt fashion turns into something much bigger than the sum of its parts.
但大多数人，如果你只提这本书，他们会说是文学作品。
But most people, if you just mentioned that book, would say literature.
他们不会说是惊悚小说。
They wouldn't say thriller.
所以能在名单上看到它，真的很令人兴奋。
So it's very exciting to see it on here.
说到伟大的文学作品，我一直对自己最喜欢的类型是惊悚和推理小说这件事，有一点点不好意思。
Speaking of great literature, I've always felt just the smallest amount of, I don't know, sheepish about the fact that this is my favorite genre, thrillers, mysteries.
我想是因为人们想到这类书时，往往会想到机场平装书，那种通俗读物。
I think because when people think of these books, they tend to think of airport paperbacks, of pulp.
我觉得有些人会觉得它们很模式化。
I think there are people who see them as formulaic.
发生谋杀案，然后警察开始调查，最后一切谜底揭晓，大快人心。
Murder happens, police procedural begins, payoff comes with everything being solved at the end.
但看这份名单，你会发现这个类型本身就有非常多样的变化。
But looking at this list, you see that there's just this really wide variety within the genre itself.
这些书可以非常有文学性，写得非常出色。
These kinds of books can be incredibly literary and well written.
首先，你不应该为你读的任何书感到尴尬。
Well, first of all, you shouldn't be embarrassed about any book you read.
读书真的太好了。
It's so great to read.
大家应该多读书。
People should read more.
好的。
Okay.
记住了。
Note taken.
而且，惊悚悬疑这个类型其实非常广泛。
And, of course, the thriller genre is so expansive.
可以是警探破案类的。
It can be police procedural.
也可以是科幻类的。
It can be science fiction.
还可以是心理惊悚类的。
It can be psychological thriller.
最棒的就是那些把惊悚元素和优美的文笔结合起来的作品。
And the best ones are the ones that marry, you know, those thriller ish elements with, like, beautiful writing.
好的。
Okay.
那你能不能举几个例子，书单里哪些书对你来说做到了这一点，完美融合了文学性和情节？
So can you give us some examples of books on this list that do that for you, that are that perfect marriage of literature and plot?
有好几本呢，看到它们在书单里真的很让人兴奋。
There's a bunch of them, and it's really exciting to see them there.
首先我要提的是凯特·阿特金森的《个案历史》。
And the first I'd mention is Case Histories by Kate Atkinson.
阿特金森。
Alzheimer.
阿特金森。
Alzheimer.
再说，它其实算不上传统意义上的惊悚小说，虽然它会标榜成侦探小说。
Again, it's not a conventional thriller really, although it's it's sort of billed as a detective novel.
名义上，这本书讲的是一个叫杰克逊·布罗迪的人，他以前是个警察。
And it's nominally about a guy called Jackson Brody, who's a former cop.
他被请去试着解决三四个，我想是，无法破解的悬案，这些案子都涉及孩子去世、亲人离世这样的伤心事，以及他如何着手处理，她如何让你沉浸在这些不同的故事里，同时也沉浸在他的故事里。
And he's called on to try to solve three or four, I think it is, impossible cold cases that all involve heartbreak with children dying and people's relatives dying, and how he goes about it, how she plunges you inside to these different stories, but also into the story of him.
还有一本我很高兴看到入选的是《阴谋》，作者是吉恩·汉夫·科雷利特。是的。
One more that I was so happy to see on here was The Plot by Jean Hemp Corlette Yes.
这本书非常巧妙，是一部在多个层面上都很有深度的悬疑小说，包括书名，它有一语双关的作用。
Which is a super clever mystery that works on so many different levels, including the the title, which does double service.
故事讲的是一个在某所糟糕的社区学院教文学的教授，他是个不成功的作家，他偷了别人的情节，并据此写了一本书。
It's about a professor of literature at some awful junior college who's now a unsuccessful writer who steals someone else's plot and produces a book based on it.
但这并不是这本书真正要讲的全部。
But that's not really what it's about necessarily.
它讲的是多种不同形式的盗窃，非常精彩。
It's about multiple thefts of different sorts of things, and it's great.
是的。
Yep.
但到目前为止，这份名单上我最喜欢的，而且我很高兴看到有她四本书上榜的，是塔娜·法兰奇，那位伟大的爱尔兰作家。
But by far, my favorite on this list, and someone who I was very happy to see has four books on the list, is Tana French, the great Irish author.
她就是传奇。
The goat.
我们有些人称她为传奇，史上最伟大的作家。
Some some of us call her the goat greatest of all time.
对。
Yes.
所以塔娜·法兰奇有四本书在名单上。
So Tana French has four books on the list.
《森林里的秘密》排第三，《破碎的港湾》排第二十，《巫术榆树》排第三十三，《相似》排第三十四。
In the Woods at number three, Broken Harbor at number 20, The Witch Elm at number 33, and The Likeness at number 34.
都很棒。
All amazing.
都很棒。
All amazing.
她写的第一本书，排名第三，就是《森林之中》，很多人都觉得那是她最好的作品。
And the first one she ever wrote, which is a number three, is In the Woods, which many people feel is the best.
我记得那还是我在伦敦当记者的时候读的，完全被书里交织的几个谜团、文字、人物，还有她沿途透露的那些细节和警方调查给迷住了。
I remember reading that when I was a London correspondent and just being mesmerized by the several mysteries flowing through it, by the writing, by the characters, by the stuff that she revealed along the way, by the police investigation.
天哪。
Oh my goodness.
这本书太棒了。
What a book.
莎拉，你觉得塔娜·法兰奇为什么能这么受欢迎？
And what's your sense, Sarah, of the broad appeal of Tana French?
为什么大家都一致认为她写得好？
Why is it that so many people agree about just how good she is?
我原来以为她是我私藏的小秘密呢。
I thought she was sort of my little special secret.
所以看到有这么多人一致觉得她厉害，我真的很高兴也很欣慰。
So I was gratified and happy to see how broad the consensus is that she's so great.
说实话，我觉得这又回到了我们之前聊过的那个话题，就是最棒的惊悚小说到底靠什么，绝对不只是情节。
And I I honestly, I think it goes back to what we were talking about before of what makes the absolute best thriller, which is not just the plot at all.
它把精彩的情节节奏跟优美的文字、人物刻画、对人的感知、心理描写、人物关系结合在一起，而且像所有伟大的文学一样，包含了对人性的真相。
It combines incredible plot pacing with beautiful writing, characterization, the sense of the people, their psychology, their relationships, and like all great literature, truths about being human.
好。
Okay.
你和塔娜·弗伦奇聊过很多次了。
You've talked to Tana French many times.
如果你有机会替《星期日日报》采访她，你会问她什么呢？
What would you ask her if you were, you know, in the position of interviewing her for The Sunday Daily?
我想知道她下一本书写什么。
I wanna know what she's writing next.
我只关心这个。
That's all I really care about.
为什么还没出版呢？
Why isn't hasn't it been published yet?
我们什么时候能读到？
When can we read it?
你能写快点吗？
Could you write a little faster, please?
对。
Yeah.
在不影响质量的前提下。
Without compromising your quality.
好的。
Alright.
那么，莎拉，非常感谢你。
Well, Sarah, thank you so much.
很高兴你能来
It's been wonderful having
这里。
you here.
这真的很有趣。
This is really fun.
谢谢。
Thank you.
休息之后，我和塔娜·法兰奇聊了聊。
After the break, I talked to Tana French.
我们马上回来。
We'll be right back.
我叫凯拉。
My name is Kaila.
我和我丈夫用他的邮箱登录《纽约时报》。
My husband and I use his email address to access The New York Times.
每天，我们都争着做连线游戏。
Each day, we compete for who gets to do connections.
有时候我登录应用，发现他那天已经做完了连线游戏。
Sometimes I log into the app and I discover that he's already finished connections that day.
然后我就说，乔纳，今天该我了。
And I'm like, Jonah, it was my day.
他说，我知道，我就是忍不住。
And he's like, I know I just couldn't resist.
如果我们能作为一家人用不同的邮箱登录，那真是帮了我们大忙。
You would do us a huge favor if we got to log in as a family with separate emails.
我真的觉得我们夫妻的幸福就靠这个了。
I really think our well-being as a couple depends on it.
谢谢你们考虑这件事。
Thanks for looking into this.
塔娜·弗伦奇，
Tana French,
塔娜·弗伦奇，
Tana French,
欢迎欢迎来到《周日每日》节目。
welcome welcome to to The The Sunday Sunday Daily.
每日。
Daily.
非常感谢你邀请我上节目。
Thank you so much for having me on.
这真的太酷了。
This is extremely cool.
那我就直说了，你写的每一个字我都读过。
So just to put my cards on the table, I have read every word that you've written.
所以对我来说，当《泰晤士报》列出本世纪50佳惊悚小说时，你居然有四本书上榜，我一点都不惊讶。
So for me, when The Times list of the 50 best thrillers of the century came out, it was not surprising that you had four books on there.
我简直高兴得要飞起来了。
I am so over the moon about that.
这是最酷的事了。
It's the coolest thing.
你肯定知道，你已经有了相当狂热的粉丝群。
You've developed, I'm sure you know, quite a cult like following.
我在准备这次采访的时候发现，不只是我一个人这样。
I learned in preparing for this interview that it's not just me.
网上有一整个社区的人，读完你的书之后都会感到一种深深的空虚感，而且他们也会尽可能早地预订你的新书。
There's a whole online community of people who feel this deep emptiness after finishing one of your books, and who also preorder you as soon as humanly possible.
你在写作的时候，你觉得你是在为谁写？
When you are writing, who do you think you are writing for?
你觉得那个人希望从你的书里得到什么？
And what do you think that person wants out of one of your books?
我不能那样想，因为我觉得读者是各种各样的，非常多样，如果我开始那样想，我只会变得困惑，开始过度思考，然后什么都写不好。
I can't think in those terms because I figure that readers are so varied, so diverse, that if I start thinking in those terms, I'm just gonna get confused, start overthinking, and nothing will ever come out right.
所以我总是从书、人物、故事的角度去想，什么对它们是最好的。
So I'm thinking always in terms of the book, the characters, the story, what is right for those.
不管是谁在读我的书，他们在喜欢读什么、喜欢思考什么、对什么感兴趣方面，都和我有一定的共同点。
Whoever's reading my books has a certain amount in common with me in what they like to read, what they like to think about, what they're interested in.
所以我只能相信，如果我把这本书写得尽我所能，尽力对得起人物、故事和主题，那么它就会和读者产生共鸣。
So I have to just take on trust that if I write this book as well as I'm humanly capable of and try to do justice to the characters, the story, the themes, then that will strike some cord with the readers.
这是我唯一能做的办法。
I that's the only way I can do it.
也就是说，如果你写的时候很开心，写得有乐趣，故事能让你自己入迷，那你就觉得对别人也会产生同样的效果。
Meaning, if you're enjoying yourself writing it, if you're having fun, if it's gripping you, you assume that will be the effect for others.
对。
Yeah.
如果那种共鸣出现了，就像你读到某处觉得特别对劲，心想，是的，这就是这个角色该有的声音。
And if it's striking that chord where you know when you're reading something and it just feels right, you're going, yes, that is the right note for the character.
情节也顺利收拢了。
The plot is coming together right.
那就是有一种真切的真实感。
That just feels it's got that true note.
如果我有这种感觉，那喜欢我书的人应该也会有同样的感受。
If I'm feeling that, then hopefully, the people who like my books will feel that way too.
你最初是怎么开始做这行的？
How did you come to this work in the first place?
算是偶然吧。
Kind of accidentally.
小时候我写了很多东西。
Like, I wrote a lot when I was a kid.
那确实一直是我的打算之一，但我后来转去演戏了。
I that was definitely one of my plans, but I sidetracked off into acting.
但是，你知道，演戏的工作很难排得刚好，除非你是朱迪·丹奇那样的人物，我显然不是。
But, you know, acting, the gigs never line up neatly unless you're a Judi Dench or somebody, which I definitely was not.
然后在两个剧之间有空档期。
And I had some time off between two shows.
我一直很喜欢考古。
And I've always loved archaeology.
一直都很着迷。
I've always been fascinated.
所以我就想，嗯，那就去吧。
So I went, right.
我打算去考古发掘现场干几个星期的活儿。
I'm gonna get myself a few weeks work on an archaeological dig.
顺便说一句，这真的很酷。
Very cool, by the way.
确实很酷。
It really was.
那真的特别有意思。
It was so much fun.
但有一天，发掘现场附近有一片树林，我看着它心想，这地方要是让孩子们来玩该多好啊。
But one day, there was a wood near the dig, and I was looking at it going, that would be a really cool place for kids to play.
但我不像正常人那样想想就完了，而是像推理作家那样，总想从一切事物里找出谜团——我觉得这正是推理作家的一个特质。
And instead of stopping there like a normal person, I did the mystery writer thing of always looking for the mystery in everything, which is I think one of the marks of a mystery writer.
然后我就想，要是三个孩子跑进去玩，最后只有一个出来，而且他对另外两个发生了什么毫无记忆，那会怎么样？
And I went, well, what if three kids ran in there to play and only one ever came out and he had no memory of what had happened to the other two?
再然后，要是这个孩子长大后成了一名侦探呢？
And then what if he grew up to be a detective?
然后有个案子把他带回了那片树林，他站在那里，知道谜底就在自己脑子里，可就是找不到。
And and a case drew him back to that wood, and he's there knowing that the solution to the mystery is in his mind, but he can't find it.
我意识到，我真的很想知道接下来会发生什么，而且没人会替我把这个故事写出来。
And I realized that I mean, I really wanted to know what would happen, and no one else was going to write it for me.
我之前从没试过写书。
So I hadn't tried to write a book before.
所以我想我大概写不了，但我可以写一个场景，再写一个场景，突然之间我就有了一章。
So I figured I probably couldn't, but I could write a scene and then another scene, and suddenly I had a chapter.
然后我突然发现自己真的非常认真地在对待这件事，甚至为了它推掉了演戏的工作，这对我来说可是件大事。然后一晃二十年过去了，我们就坐在这里聊这个。
And suddenly, I realized I was taking this really, really seriously and turning down acting work for it, which is a big deal, and here we all are, like, twenty years later.
那显然就是你第一本书《森林里的秘密》的设定，那本书在这份榜单上排第三。
That's obviously the premise of In the Woods, your first book, which was number three on this list.
这本小说是怎么从最初那个小小的灵感发展出来的？
How did the novel grow from that original kernel of an idea?
我知道你说你是一个场景接一个场景拼起来的，但你能带我过一遍你的创作过程吗？
I know you're saying you put scene after scene after scene together, but walk me through your process.
你当时知道结局会怎样吗？
Did you know what was gonna happen at the end?
你是怎么写到那一步的？
How did you get there?
过程很乱。
It was messy.
说实话，现在也还是这样。
I've got to say, it still is.
我的写作过程一直都很乱，但那是第一次写书，所以更乱。
My process is still really, really messy, but that was the first time I'd ever written a book, so it was much messier.
我完全不知道。
I had no idea.
我对场景和人物有很强的感觉。
I had a really strong sense of the setting and of the character.
这个人在他人生那个关键节点上受到了很大的创伤，你知道，12岁那年。
This guy who was really damaged at that crucial point in his life you know, you're 12.
你正在形成自我，而他的生活和对自己以及自己心智的看法上有一道巨大的裂痕。
You're just forming who you are, and there was this huge crack through his life and his perception of his himself and his, you know, his relationship with his own mind.
所以这个二十年后已经长大成人的家伙，那道裂痕仍然贯穿他做的每一件事。
And so this guy who is now twenty years later who's a grown up, but that crack is still running through everything he does.
我对这个人物、这个地方以及这个基本设定有很强的感觉。
I had a really strong sense of him and of this place and this basic premise.
从那里开始，我就即兴发挥了。
And from there, I was winging it.
我在摸索他是谁，他会如何与案件产生联系，他会如何与另一个角色——凯西，他的搭档和最好的朋友——相处，这个角色很快就出现了。
I was figuring out who he was, how he would relate to the case, how he would relate to you know, the other character, Cassie, his partner and best friend, came up fairly quickly.
那他们的关系会是什么样的呢？
So what would their relationship be like?
而他身上那道黑暗的裂痕会如何影响一切，从调查到友谊，再到他处理这桩旧案浮出水面的方式？
And what would this sort of dark fault line through him do to everything from the investigation, to the friendship, to the way he engaged with this old case surfacing?
我是一边写一边想明白的。
And I figured it out as I went.
这是你平时的创作流程吗？
Is that your normal process?
你写这些书一直都是这样做的吗？
Is that how you've continued to write these books?
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
我写书的时候，通常一开始并不知道凶手是谁，我也不是那种人。
Like, I don't usually know whodunit when I go into writing a book, and I'm no.
但我真的很羡慕那些从一开始就清楚真相的作者。
But I'm really I'm envious of the authors who do.
我认识一些作家，他们在动笔之前就把每一章都列好了提纲。
I know writers who have every chapter outlined before they start.
那样做的乐趣在于，你知道这本书肯定能写出来。
And the joy of that is you know there's a book in there.
对，确实。
And Yeah.
没错。
Sure.
但我不是那样。
I don't.
所以我就直接跳进去了。
So I'm diving in.
游泳池可能是空的。
The swimming pool could be empty.
我可能一头撞到池底，然后心想，哎呀，糟了。
I could just hit my head on the bottom and go, oh, uh-oh.
结果发现根本没有书。
There was no book there.
但我觉得这种方式有利有弊。
But I think it it has pluses and minuses.
弊端就是需要大量的重写。
The minus being there's an awful lot of rewriting.
当你写到第七章一半的时候，突然发现，天哪，这个人之前做过那件事，然后你得回去重写，加强那部分，把它放到正确的位置。
When you're halfway through chapter seven and you go, oh my god, this person did that, and you have to go back and rewrite to strengthen that up and put it in its correct place.
但另一方面，写作时我会感到兴奋，因为有些东西是新的发现，是新的，而且我在写作过程中逐渐了解角色。
But on the other hand, there's a sense of excitement that I get when I'm writing, and something's a discovery, and something's new, and I'm getting to know the characters as I go.
所以我希望这种写作方式的好处之一，就是那种发现的感觉能传递给读者。
So I'm hoping that the plus side of this way of writing is that that some of that communicates itself to the reader.
不。
No.
我是说，确实会传递，但风险太大了。
I I mean, it definitely does, but there is so much risk in it.
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我想知道你有没有遇到过这种情况，就是写着写着突然觉得，这次我可能真的写不出来了。
I wonder if there's any time where you've done this and you've kind of been like, I don't actually know if I'm gonna be able to do it this time.
只有一次，我是说，通常写到书的三分之二处，你会有那种感觉，对，就是觉得这不行。
There was only one time there I mean, there's always a point about two thirds of the way through the book where you're like, yeah.
这不行。
This doesn't work.
这太烂了。
This sucks.
全都烂透了。
All of this sucks.
我还是回去当个穷演员，住在阁楼里算了。
I'm gonna go back to being a broke actor living in a garret.
但只有一次，那是在写《闯入者》的时候，刚开始不久，大概写了2000字，我就觉得这故事好像没什么进展。
But only once when I was writing The Trespasser, and it was very early on, I was about 2,000 words in, and I went, I don't feel like this is going much of anywhere.
然后我和我丈夫去散了很久的步，他对结构很在行，他就问我，这里面有哪些部分是你真正特别想写的？
And I went for a long walk with my husband who's very good at the structural stuff, and he went, well, what are the bits of this that you actually really, really want to write about?
你真正想要的有多少？
How much of this do you really want?
然后我把它缩减到两三个元素，然后说，你知道吗？
And I pared it back to about two or three elements and went, you know what?
其实，其他的，不要了。
Actually, the rest, no.
就是那两三个元素。
It is those two or three elements.
他说，好吧。
He went, okay.
保留那些。
Keep those.
重新开始。
Start over.
他说得对，我也照做了。
And he was right, and I did.
不过我很幸运，发现得特别早。
But I was lucky that it was very very early on.
我当时还没做到四分之三呢，要是那时候才反应过来，那就麻烦了。
I wasn't, like, three quarters of the way through and went, oh, yeah.
故事根本没有结局。
There's no ending.
我得从头再来一遍。
I'm have to start over.
说实话，我很惊讶你居然像侦探一样去读这些书，试图理清到底发生了什么。
I'm honestly amazed at the idea that you kind of approach these books like a detective yourself, trying to figure out what happens.
你是怎么确保自己不会顺着某条故事线钻牛角尖、走偏的呢？
How do you make sure that you're not following a storyline down a rabbit hole?
比如，当你一边阅读一边推理时，你是怎么保持专注的？
Like, how do you stay focused if you're figuring it out as it happens?
我觉得这也是我写悬疑小说的原因之一，因为这类题材很能帮你把思路拉回正轨。
I think this is one of the reasons I write mystery, because it's quite good at keeping you on track.
因为它自带一个框架。
Because it comes with a framework.
它自带一个框架：A杀了B，C找出是谁干的。
It comes with a kills b, c finds out who did it.
而且，我的意思是，你可以在这个框架上做文章。
And of I mean, you can play with that.
你可以，你知道，颠覆它，玩弄它，把它翻个底朝天。
You can you can, you know, undermine that, play with it, turn it around inside out.
但基本框架就是这样。
But that's the basic framework.
所以它有一个形状。
And so it has a shape.
它有一个自然的结局。
It has a natural ending.
推理小说就是这样。
A mystery book does.
我觉得这就是我写推理小说的原因，也是让我保持方向感的东西，因为你不能随便跑偏去写某个人的整个人生故事。
And I think that's why I write mystery and what keeps me on track because you can't just wander off on someone's entire life story.
你写的任何内容，不仅要服务于角色，不仅要服务于主题，还要服务于故事推进，直到某个形式的结局出现。
Anything you're writing has to feed not just into the character, not just into the themes, but also into that story drive towards the moment when there's some form of closure.
我觉得这就是我保持方向感的主要方式。
And I think that's that's my main way of keeping myself on track.
你有没有觉得被这种基本套路束缚过？就是A杀了B，C去查真相这种。
Do you ever feel hemmed in by that basic convention a kills b, c finds out?
我明白你的意思，你说这在某种程度上是自由的。
I mean, I understand you're saying there's a way in which it's freeing.
它让你能放开手脚去探索这些角色，同时还能保持主线。
It allows you to kind of explore these characters expansively and and stay on track.
但我在想，这是否会让读者产生一些期待，有时候反而让你觉得受限。
But I wonder if it creates these expectations from readers that may feel limiting at times.
其实没有，原因有两个。
Not really for two reasons.
其中一个理由可能比另一个更好。
One of which is maybe better than the other.
更好的理由是，在这个框架内有很多变化。
The better one is there's so much variation within that.
因为在大多数推理小说中，真正的问题我觉得不是谁干的。
Because the real question in most mysteries, I don't think it is whodunit.
那不是最大的问题。
That's not the big question.
最大的问题是这对角色有什么影响？
The big question is what impact does this have on the characters?
这对发生事件的社会意味着什么？
What does it mean for the society in which it happens?
他们将如何面对这个真相？
How are they gonna deal with this revelation?
他们会如何消化这件事？
How how will they process it?
这会改变他们吗？
Will it change them?
这会改变他们的世界或者他们个人吗？
Will it change their world or them as individuals?
所以，在大多数惊悚小说中，我觉得“谁干的”是最不重要的问题。
So whodunit is the smallest question, I think, at most in most thrillers.
另一个原因是，就像《森林之中》所展示的，有时候我只是觉得，是的。
And the other reason is that, I mean, as In the Woods shows, sometimes I just go, yeah.
不。
No.
那不是最重要的问题。
That's not the big question.
所以不会有答案。
And so there's not gonna be an answer.
我只那样做过一次，但我不认为那是《森林之中》最重要的问题。
I've only done it that once, but I don't think that was the big question in In the Woods.
在《森林之中》里，问题是这个角色能否从那种伤害中走出来，而答案是肯定的。
In In the Woods, it's will this character be able to move past that damage, which is answered.
是的。
Yes.
我们应该对那些可能没读过这本书的人说，这不算剧透，你凭借这部处女作一鸣惊人，它设定了一个疯狂的前提，就像你刚才说的，三个孩子消失在森林里，只有一个回来了。
We should say for people who may not have read this book, and this is not, I don't think, a spoiler, but you burst onto the scene with this debut that essentially set up this crazy premise, which you laid out, three kids disappear into the woods, one emerges.
然后整本书继续下去，并不是要弄清楚那一刻发生了什么。
And then the whole book proceeds, and it's not really about figuring out what happened at that moment.
而是关于另一桩犯罪，而且它一直悬而未决。
It's about a different crime, and it remains unsolved.
我相信你仍然会收到很多很多人的提问，他们问你到底会不会告诉我们答案。
I'm sure you still get many, many questions from people who ask you whether you're ever gonna tell us.
对。
Yeah.
而且，不，我不认为我会再回到那个问题，因为我觉得那本书的大问题已经回答了。
And, no, I don't think I am gonna come back to that because I think the big questions of that book were answered.
我当时确实想过，我该不该写出来呢？
And I did think about it at the time I was going, so should I?
但我真的不能那样做，否则会违背角色的本性，会在书的最后把他变成另一个人。
But I couldn't really do that without being very false to the character, without turning him at the last minute in the book into somebody different.
那样会显得很廉价、很俗套，我不会那么做的。
And that felt cheap and cheesy, and I wasn't gonna do that.
所以我就想，好吧。
So I just went, okay.
有些人可能会理所当然地对这个结局感到非常恼火，因为它不符合他们一开始期待的常规，他们会觉得被骗了。
Some people will be justifiably really annoyed with this ending because it does not fit the conventions that they went in expecting, and they are gonna feel cheated.
这也很公平。
And that's fair enough.
但也会有其他读者觉得，如果我为了一个干净的答案而把角色变成另一个人，他们同样会觉得被骗。
But there will be other readers who would feel equally cheated if I turned the character into someone else for the sake of having a clean answer.
所以我就打算按照我认为对这本书合适的结局来写，然后祈祷好运吧。
So I'm just gonna go with what I think is the right ending for the book and keep my fingers crossed.
好的。
Okay.
不是要一直提这个，但说真的，你心里知道发生了什么吗？
Not to harp on it, but do you, in your heart of hearts, know what happened?
是的。
Yeah.
我大概有数。
I've got a pretty clear idea.
好的。
Okay.
行。
Alright.
我们就聊到这儿吧。
We'll leave it at that.
我是那种完全满意的读者之一。
I'm one of those readers that was fully satisfied.
我们稍微休息一下。
We're gonna take a quick break.
回来后，我想聊聊你写这些精彩角色的方法。
And when we come back, I wanna talk about your approach to these great characters that you write.
我们马上回来。
We'll be right back.
我想聊聊你塑造角色的方法。
I wanna talk about your approach to your characters.
很多惊悚小说作家都写过围绕一个角色的系列书。
A lot of thriller writers have written series of books that are centered around one character.
詹姆斯·帕特森有亚历克斯·克罗斯。
James Patterson has Alex Cross.
李·查德有杰克·里奇。
Lee Child has Jack Reacher.
你的《都柏林谋杀小队》系列书围绕不同的角色展开，他们都有联系，但各有各的故事、习惯、怪癖，说实话，也各有各的创伤。
Your Dublin Murder Squad books center on different characters who are all connected, but they have different stories, different tics, different quirks, and different damage, honestly.
他们常常是缺陷很多的叙述者，有时候还有记忆问题。
They're often deeply flawed narrators, sometimes with memory problems.
结果就是，在这个系列里，你作为读者，并没有一个稳定、全知全能的权威在安抚你，帮你破案。
And the result in that series is that you don't, as a reader, have this stable, all knowing authority soothingly solving a crime.
你面对的是一群不断更换的人，他们和你一起寻找，但你未必一直信任他们。
You have a rotating cast of people searching alongside you who you may or may not trust all the time.
你为什么采取这种写法？
Why did you take that approach?
写完《森林里的秘密》之后，我思考了很多，当时就想，天哪。
I thought about it a lot when I finished In the Woods and was thinking, oh my god.
也许有一天会有人想要第二本书。
Somebody might someday want a second book.
我确实应该好好考虑一下。
I should probably think about that.
我很喜欢你说的那些系列。
I love those series that you talk about.
你知道，P.
You know, P.
D.
D.
詹姆斯演的亚当·道格利什，我很喜欢那种系列，跟着一个侦探经历不同的案件，还有他或她生活中的起起落落。
James as Adam Dogleash, and I love series like that where you follow one detective through kind of the different cases and the ups and downs of his or her life.
但问题是，那不是我想写的，因为我想写的是那种案件，它正好击中侦探最脆弱的地方，改变他们作为一个人，让他们面对自己内心最困难、最关键的事情。
But the thing is that's not what I was interested in writing because I was interested in writing about a case that hits a detective right on their most vulnerable point and that changes them as a person, that makes them confront the things that are most difficult and most crucial within their own mind.
一个人能经历的那种人生重大转折点的案件是有限的。
And there's a limit to how many cases you can one person can have that are huge turning points in their own life.
所以我就想，好吧。
So I was like, okay.
我可以继续让同一个可怜的家伙经历巨大的转折，那样的话，到第三本书他可能就被绑在束缚衣里了，或者我可以从一个侦探换到另一个侦探，在他们遇到那个转折点案件的时候切入，这个案件会影响他们余生的走向。
I can either keep dumping the same poor guy with massive turning points, in which case he is gonna be, like, locked up in a straitjacket by book three, or I can shift from detective to detective, picking up each one at the moment when they have that case that's a turning point that will affect the way the rest of their whole life plays out.
所以我决定这么做，然后把书像链条一样连起来。
So I decided to do that and kind of chain link the books together.
所以某个人可能在第三本书里是个小角色，然后在第四本书里成为叙述者，但你是在他们遇到重大转折案件的时候开始讲述他们的故事。
So somebody might be a minor character in book three and then the narrator in book four, but you're picking them up at the point where something massive, a crossroads case, has hit them.
你知道吗，当你读这些书的时候，你会发现你对了解、认识或琢磨侦探的兴趣，不亚于对解开谜团、找出罪犯的兴趣。
You know, what happens as you're reading these things is that you find yourself about as interested in understanding or knowing or figuring out the detective as you do about finding out the answer to the mystery, the crime,
凶手。
the killer.
太好了。
Great.
对吧？
You know?
很好。
Good.
听起来这就是……
It sounds like that's It the
是的。
is.
对。
Yeah.
确实如此。
It really is.
我的意思是，对我来说，那才是最大的谜团。
I mean, for me, that is the big mystery.
就是人，以及他们如何运作，如何在事情变得复杂、困难时继续前行。
It's people and how they work and how they move through life when things get complicated, when things are difficult.
我觉得这正是推理小说擅长的地方。
I think that's what mystery does really well.
因为在“谁杀了这个人”的框架下，有很多关于人心的疑问等着去探索。
Because on that framework of, you know, who killed this person, you've got so many questions right there asking to be explored about people's minds.
你知道，一个人是怎么从普通人变成杀人犯的？
You know, how does someone get from being a normal human being to being a murderer?
是什么让他们走到那一步？
What takes them there?
这对那些调查的人、周围相关的人、还有嫌疑人，会有什么影响呢？
What effects does this have on, you know, the people who investigate, the people who are all around it, the people who are suspects?
这些都是关于人类心理深度的重大问题。
These are huge things about, like, the depths of the human psyche.
你知道，是什么黑暗的角落催生了谋杀，无论是社会层面的还是个人内心的黑暗角落。
What's you know, what dark places create a murder both in society and the dark places of the individual.
我觉得这些非常吸引人，比那个简单明了、非黑即白的“谁干的”要有趣得多。
I think those are fascinating and much more interesting than the the easily answered black and white question of who did this.
我喜欢那些永远无法完全解答的问题，但悬疑小说至少给了我们探索它们的途径。
I like the questions that will never be fully answered, but mystery gives us a way to at least explore them.
塔娜，我读你的作品时，感觉你不仅深入探索人物、人性，还深入探索地点、特定的历史时刻，以及那些时刻中施加影响的政治和社会力量。
Tana, something I feel reading you, I think a lot of people do, is that you have this way of not just thoroughly exploring people, human beings, but thoroughly exploring places, particular moments in history with all the political and social forces that bear down on them.
在《破碎的港湾》中，那个犯罪和谜团完全是由爱尔兰在金融危机中挣扎的背景所塑造的。
In Broken Harbor, that crime, the mystery there, it's entirely shaped by the setting of Ireland reeling from the financial crisis.
我想知道，这是不是你构思故事时的一部分方式？
And I'm wondering, is that part of how you develop the ideas for your stories?
这些故事是不是从特定的时代和地理位置中生长出来的？
Do they grow out of that specific times and geographical places?
通常不是刻意为之。
It's not usually on purpose.
我只是觉得这种类型特别适合做这件事。
I just I think that this genre is kind of uniquely suited to doing that.
因为当你处理谋杀案时——你知道，悬疑小说经常这样——你面对的是很重大的东西。谋杀在每个时代、每个地方都不一样。
Because when you're dealing with a murder, which, you know, mystery often does, you're dealing with huge stuff with the you know, murder is different in every time and place.
它无处不在，但在不同的时代和地点，发生的原因各不相同。
It happens everywhere, but it happens for different reasons in different times and places.
你不会在游牧部落中看到因为一块土地的所有权而发生的谋杀。
You will not have a murder over ownership of a piece of land among a nomadic tribe.
那对他们来说不是优先考虑的事，但在爱尔兰的农村，这种事发生过很多次。
It's just that's not a priority to them, but you would have it in rural Ireland and have had many times.
所以一旦有了谋杀，你就开始探索这个社会的优先事项是什么。
So the minute you have a murder, you're into exploring what are the priorities for this society?
哪些事情如此重要、情绪如此强烈，以至于人们会为此杀人？
What are the things that are so crucial and so highly emotionally charged that someone will kill over them?
或者有哪些恐惧如此强烈，以至于人们会因为这种恐惧而杀人？
Or what are the fears that are so intense, you know, that someone will kill because of this fear?
而这些都是由社会塑造的。
And those are shaped by the society.
所以你就开始写作。
So you start writing.
你知道，你会在那里的。
You know, you're going to be there.
不管你有没有打算，你都会深入其中。
You're gonna be diving into that whether you intend to or not.
我觉得这就是我的立场。
And I think that's that's where I land.
你就像被磁铁吸引一样，被那些紧张到极点的时刻吸引，正是因为那些是人们会为之杀人的事情。
You're drawn like a magnet to those moments of maximum tension because precisely, because they're the kinds of things people would kill over.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
而且它们是由社会塑造的。
And they're shaped.
当你说某人因为谋杀而杀人时，你其实是在谈论社会。
You're talking about society when you say somebody killed for this in a murder.
没错。
Right.
你是在对那个时代和地点发表看法，无论你是否有意为之。
You are saying something about that time and place, whether you intended to or not.
这真的让我明白了为什么你的作品如此引人入胜，因为你似乎到处都能看到神秘。
That honestly unlocked for me part of the reason why your work is so compelling because it sounds like you see mystery everywhere.
你在人们是谁中看到神秘。
You see mystery in who people are.
你在那些与大城市隔绝的小镇里发生的事情中看到了神秘。
You see mystery in the things that happen in these small towns that are cut off from the kind of big cities.
你有点邀请人们去思考他们的世界充满了这些神秘，他们可以参与其中，解决它们，或者帮助带来光明。
And you kind of invite people to think of their world as full of these mysteries that that they could be engaging with, solving, or or helping to bring light to.
我喜欢这样。
I love that.
我会喜欢那样，因为我认为让我们成为人类的一件事就是我们热爱神秘。
I would love that because I think one of the things that makes us human is that we love mysteries.
比如，动物就不是这样。
Like, animals aren't the same way.
比如，你知道，你有一只猫什么的。
Like, you know, you've got a cat or whatever.
猫会去检查某样东西。
The cat will check something out.
那是不是一个我能坐进去的盒子？
Is it a box that I can sit in?
能吃吗？
Can I eat it?
要不要害怕它？
Should I be scared of it?
不。
No.
好吧。
Okay.
行。
Fine.
那我不感兴趣了。
I'm not interested anymore.
但人类不一样，我们不只是对谜团的答案感兴趣。
But humans will always we're not just interested in the solution to the mystery.
让我们着迷的不只是问题的答案。
It's not just the answer to the question that fascinates us.
是谜团本身。
It's the mystery itself.
是外面有某个东西，它是个巨大的问号，需要去探索，而且探索的过程本身就让人着迷。
It's the fact that there is something out there that's a huge question mark and that needs exploring and that the process of exploring it is fascinating.
我们可以一直探索下去，发现一层层的答案，却永远找不到核心答案，这一点让我们着迷。
The fact that we could go on exploring and find layers of answers and never get to the core answer, we're fascinated by that.
塔娜，人们常说你的作品是在文学小说和类型小说之间游走。
Tana, people often talk about your work as kind of writing the border between literary and genre fiction.
我想知道你怎么看这个说法。
I wonder what you think about that.
你觉得自己的作品处于哪个位置？
What space do you locate
你的作品处于哪个位置？
your work in?
你看，我根本不相信有这种界限。
See, don't believe in that border anyway.
所以我也大概猜到了。
So I I I kinda figured.
边界。
Border.
对。
Yeah.
而且我觉得，如果你看看那个名单，就是那个很棒的前50名惊悚小说名单，它其实打破了那种认为存在一种固定惊悚小说类型的想法，因为名单上的书差异太大了。
And I think I mean, if you look at that list, that wonderful list of the 50 best thrillers, it kind of chatters the idea that there is such a thing as a thriller because the books on that are so different.
你看，有《达芬奇密码》。
You've got, you know, you've got The Da Vinci Code.
还有《神秘河》也在上面。
You've got, you know, Mystic River is on there.
还有《金翅雀》。
You have The Goldfinch.
还有《符文》。
You have Rune.
这些书根本不可能是同一种类型的书。
There is no world in which those books are all the same kind of book.
你说的有一部分是，你不只是不相信这个界限。
Part of what you're saying is it's not just that you don't believe in the border.
听起来读者们其实也看不到那个界限。
It sounds like readers don't really see that border either.
我想谈谈这份榜单，就是《泰晤士报》刚发布的世纪最佳惊悚小说50强。
I wanna talk about this list, the 50 best thrillers of the century that The Times just put out.
你刚才已经提到了一点。
You're talking a little bit about this.
你觉得怎么样？
What did you think of it?
你看到它的时候，第一印象是什么？
What were your impressions when you saw it?
我的第一印象就是，作为一份50佳惊悚小说榜单，它恰恰说明了惊悚小说根本没有定义。
That was my first impression is that for a list of the 50 best thrillers, it makes it pretty clear that there is no definition of a thriller.
因为你看这些书，虽然我能理解为什么每一本都能上榜，但我觉得很难有说服力地说它们都属于同一个类别。
Because you look at these, and while I can see why each of them is on the list, I think it's really hard to go to say with any conviction that they all belong in the same category.
而且这些都是很棒的书，但它们对惊悚片这个概念的处理方式非常不同。
And these are wonderful books, but they approach the concepts of the thriller so differently.
你知道，《房间》和《麦当娜·休斯的房间》在我看来并没有特别受到我们通常认为的惊悚片或悬疑片惯例的影响。
You know, Room and Madonna Hughes Room doesn't seem to me to be particularly shaped in any way by the conventions that we would consider to hold for a thriller or a mystery.
同样，《金翅雀》也是。
And the same for, you know, The Goldfinch.
它玩弄了整个劫案的概念，但似乎并没有受到那些惯例的影响。
It plays with the whole heist idea, but it doesn't seem to in any way be shaped by the conventions.
它只是用它们来增添乐趣，就像点缀一些可爱的小装饰。
It just uses them to have fun with as sort of lovely little icings.
所以我觉得，这就是我看到这个榜单时首先想到的。
So I think these this would be that was the first thing I thought of when I saw this list.
与其说是50部最佳惊悚片，不如说是50种有趣的方式来参与“惊悚片”这个概念。
More than a list of 50 best thrillers, it's a list of 50 great fun ways to be engaged with the concept that there is such a thing as a thriller.
好的。
And okay.
我得问一下。
I have to ask.
这个评选的构建方式，这些选票发出去，而《泰晤士报》没有告诉任何人，你知道，这些是惊悚小说的标准。所以，这实际上反映了人们想到惊悚小说时会想到什么。
The way that that this was constructed, these ballots were sent out, and The Times didn't tell anybody, you know, these are the parameters for what a thriller So, really, it is a reflection of what people think of when they think of thrillers.
我想知道你认为人们去思考的时候会怎么做。
And I I wanna know what you think people did when they went to think of it.
他们是不是试图唤起一种感觉，然后挑选最符合那种紧张、悬疑、宣泄感觉的书？
Was it a feeling they tried to conjure and then pick the books that most match that feeling of kind of tension, suspense, catharsis?
我只能说，我写了九本书在我的选票上，然后忘了提交，所以我只能说说我试着写出来的时候是怎么做的。
All I can say is I I got nine books into my ballot and then forgot to send it in, so I can only say what I did when when I was trying to write them out.
我是个傻瓜。
I'm an idiot.
当我试着写出来的时候，我只能说说我做了什么，那就是我选了我最喜欢的十本书，只要我能勉强说它们是惊悚小说。
When I was trying to write them out, I can only say what I did, which was I went for my 10 favorite books that I could, by any stretch of the imagination, claim were thrillers.
好的。
Okay.
我得问一下。
I have to ask.
我们能听听《失落歌谣》吗？
Can we hear The Lost Ballad?
如果现在给你时间提交，你会把哪些书列在这个名单上？
What what were what are the books that you would put on this list if you could, if we now gave you the time to submit it?
我记不清了，因为我一直在发现新的书，然后就想，糟糕。
I can't remember because I kept finding ones and going, crap.
那不是二十一世纪的吧？
That wasn't twenty first century, was it?
但我知道，《神秘河》和《消失的爱人》最后排在前两名，它们确实在我的名单上。
But I know, Mystery River and Gone Girl, which ended up being the top two, they were in fact on there.
《冬天的骨头》也在里面。
Winter's Bone was in there.
《犹太警察工会》这本书，我知道它当时在名单上，但我不记得它是不是出版太早了。
The Yiddish Policemen's Union, I know it was in there, but I can't remember whether it turned out to be too early or not.
我特别喜欢那本书。
I love that book.
那本书真的是，我太喜欢它了。
That is a I loved it.
那绝对是部无与伦比的杰作。
An absolute beauty of Incredible.
对，就是。
I yeah.
我爱那本书。
I love that.
那你到底喜欢那本书的什么？
What what did you love about that book?
它到底好在哪里？
What what what what about it?
你知道吗？
You know?
或者其他的书。
Or any of the books.
但什么能让你觉得特别出色呢？
But what reaches your upper echelon?
嗯，那本书特别棒，它什么都有。
Well, that one in particular, it has everything.
比如，它是一部黑色小说，而且它非常愉快地深入了所有黑色小说的套路。
Like, it is a noir, and it just dives joyfully into all of the noir tropes.
他写得真是太好了。
He writes so beautifully.
天哪，他对语言的运用真是绝了。
My god, the things he does with language.
几乎任何一句话，你都可以拿去给别人听，说：听听这个。
Just about any sentence, you could go to somebody, listen to this.
你听听，这写得有多美。
Listen to this how beautiful this is.
他的人物刻画简直太厉害了。
His characterization is incredible.
他一句话就能直击角色的内心，而且能在幽默、感人、黑暗之间自如切换。
He can give you one sentence and just slice straight to the heart of a character, and he can turn on a dime between being so funny and being so moving and being so dark.
嗯。
Mhmm.
而且情节一直吸引着你读下去。
And and the plot just keeps you going the whole way.
所以我觉得就是这些原因。
So I think it was that.
这本书正好集齐了我最喜欢的元素，它尽情展现类型小说的魅力，却又不被其束缚。
It was this just hits all my favorite things in a book, and it revels in the genre without ever being constrained by it.
好的。
Okay.
你有没有什么推荐给听众的书？
Do you have recommendations for our listeners?
不一定是惊悚小说。
They can be thrillers or not.
也不一定非得是二十一世纪的，但就是那种你会让人放下手头一切立刻去读的书。
They don't have to be in the twenty first century, but things that you would tell people to drop everything and read right now.
好的。
Okay.
如果我开始滔滔不绝，你得打断我，因为好书太多了。
If I start jabbering, do stop me because there are so many books.
好的。
Okay.
我不会打断你的。
I won't.
最近读的是丹尼尔·梅森的《北林》，这本书很难描述，因为它讲的是新英格兰一块土地四百年的故事，通过日记、歌谣、叙述、信件等各种形式来展现。
Most recently, Northwoods by Daniel Mason, which is so hard to describe because it is the story of a piece of land in New England over 400 through, you know, diaries, ballads, narratives, letters, whatever you want.
太棒了。
It's amazing.
太迷人了。
It's enchanted.
《孤独鸽》。
Lonesome Dove.
这是一本了不起的书。
It's an incredible book.
讲的是十九世纪七十年代一群人赶着牛从得克萨斯到蒙大拿的故事。
It's the story of a bunch of guys in the eighteen seventies taking a cattle drive from Texas to Montana.
开头有点慢，但人物、氛围、一切都很好。
And it is it's a slow start, but it's wonderful for character, for atmosphere, for everything.
《秘史》，我很喜欢。
The Secret History, I love it.
我知道有些人爱它，有些人讨厌它，但我超爱它。
Some people, I know it's love it or hate it, but I adore it.
非常喜欢。
Love it over
在这里。
here.
是的。
Yep.
天哪。
Oh god.
人物刻画，文笔。
The characterization, the writing.
她写什么我都会读。
I would read anything she wrote.
还有那个大揭秘的场景，就算房子在我周围烧起来，我也不会注意到。我也是。
And that big reveal scene, the house could have burned down around me during the big reveal scene, and I would have not have noticed Same.
我第一次读那本书的时候。
The first time I read that book.
好的。
Okay.
我得问你一个问题，这是我们惊悚小说专栏作家莎拉·莱尔坚持让我问的，而且说实话，我觉得有几百万人想知道，那就是你接下来有什么计划，我们什么时候能预购？
I must ask you something that our thrillers columnist, Sarah Lyall, insisted I ask and that, honestly, I think millions of people wanna know, which is, what are you up to next, and when can we preorder it?
有点奇怪。
It's a little bit weird.
有点不一样。
It's a little different.
我从来没有写过关于新冠的内容，你注意到了吗？
I'm I've never written about COVID, if you notice.
《搜寻者》是在新冠开始前交稿的。
The Searcher was handed in just before COVID started.
所以《猎人与守护者》是在疫情期间写的，但我从来没提过，在阿达格卡尔蒂没有新冠。
So the hunter and the keeper were written during COVID, but I never mentioned there's no COVID in Ardagh Calty.
这些人不用面对新冠。
These people are not dealing with COVID.
我不想写这个。
I'm not dealing with it.
算了。
Forget it.
人们一直问我，你会写这个吗？
And people kept asking me, are you gonna write about this?
我说，不会。
I was like, no.
我甚至不想写。
I don't even wanna do it.
别提了。
Never mind.
写这个。
Write about it.
但现在，过了这么久，我最终还是写了。
But now, at this distance, I have ended up writing about it.
这本书的故事发生在一个爱尔兰小城或小镇郊区的路上，就在封锁刚开始的时候，一个女人带着她的两个小女儿来到了这条路上。
And this book is set on a road in a suburb of a small Irish city or town where just as the lockdown hits, a woman and her two small daughters arrive on the road.
在封锁期间，这条路上的不同居民逐渐意识到，她可能并不是她所说的那个人。
And over the course of the lockdown, the different people on the road realize that she may not be who she says she is.
天哪。
Oh my god.
她可能是为了某个目的而来，而这个目的可能会影响到这条关系紧密的小街道的整个平衡。
She may be here for a purpose, and that purpose may have effects on the entire balance of this little kind of tight knit road.
哇。
Wow.
我什么时候能预订这本书？
When can I preorder it?
这是最重要的问题。
Most important question.
我得敲敲木头（祈求好运）。
I should touch wood.
一切顺利，而且确实很顺利。
All going well, and it is going well.
写起来很有趣。
It's fun to write.
下周就要交了。
Be handing it in next week.
好的。
Okay.
嗯，在那之前我不太确定自己要做什么。
Well, I don't totally know what I'm gonna do until then.
塔娜，非常感谢你来参加这个节目。
Tana, thank you so much for coming on the show.
我真的很感激。
I really appreciate it.
听我说。
Listen.
非常感谢你邀请我。
Thank you so much for having me.
这真是一次愉快的经历。
This was a joy.
周五，《泰晤士报》发布了由你们读者评选出的本世纪百佳惊悚小说名单。
On Friday, The Times released the list of the 100 best thrillers of the century chosen by you, our readers.
塔娜的十本书中有九本入选了那份名单。
And nine of Tana's 10 books were on that list.
干得好，各位。
Well done, guys.
今天的节目由卢克·范德·普拉格制作，亚历克斯·巴伦和蒂娜·安塔利尼协助，达莉亚·哈达德提供制作支持。
Today's episode was produced by Luke Vander Plug with help from Alex Barron and Tina Antalini, and production assistance from Dahlia Hadad.
节目由温迪·多尔编辑，罗文·内马斯特负责工程。
It was edited by Wendy Doerr and engineered by Rowan Nemastow.
节目中包含丹·鲍威尔和马里昂·洛萨诺的音乐。
It includes music by Dan Powell and Marion Lozano.
今天的《周日日报》就到这里。
That's it for The Sunday Daily.
我是娜塔莉·基特罗夫。
I'm Natalie Kitroeff.
明天见。
See you tomorrow.
本周的《Wirecutter秀》节目。
This week on The Wirecutter Show.
网上购物确实很诱人，但没有什么能替代亲自去店里购物，尤其是买沙发的时候。
It's really tempting to shop online, but there is no replacement for shopping in person, especially for sofas.
网上购物太难了。
It's so hard to shop online.
我们聊的全是关于沙发，怎么买一个耐用而且你真正喜欢的。
We're talking all about sofas, how to buy one that will last and that you'll actually like.
无论你在哪里听播客，都能找到《Wirecutter秀》。
Find The Wirecutter Show wherever you listen to podcasts.
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