《每日》节目的音乐来源

嘿，等一下。这是属于你的时刻，属于你的一天，去玩耍、去创造、去行动、去穿越、去探索。这是你的身体，去休息、去滋养、去成长。这是你的心灵。

Hey. Hold up. This is your minute, your day to play, to make, to move, to move through, to explore. It's your body to rest, to nourish, to grow. It's your mind.

知道吗？这是属于你的位置，属于你的生活，去爱、去梦想、去改变。这是你要理解的世界。《纽约时报》。更多内容请访问nytimes.com/yourworld。

You know? It's your place, your life to love, to dream, to change. It's your world to understand. The New York Times. Find out more at nytimes.com/yourworld.

大家好，我是娜塔莉，欢迎收听本期《每日》订阅用户专属节目。我们将每两周推出这样的特别节目，为您带来常规节目中不会涉及的故事——那些我们认为有趣、特别或订阅用户会喜欢的内容。在《每日》团队里，我们有件非常特别且稍显不同的事——我们拥有专属的内部作曲团队。

Hey. It's Natalie, and welcome to another subscriber only episode of The Daily. We're gonna be doing these bonus episodes every two weeks to bring you stories that we wouldn't normally cover on the show. Stories that we think are fun or interesting or just something that you, our subscribers, would enjoy. Here at The Daily, we have something really special and a little unusual, which is our own in house composers.

今天我们将对话两位为《每日》创作配乐的音乐人——丹·鲍威尔和玛丽昂·洛萨诺。本期节目，我将主持话筒交给通常身处幕后的同事——《每日》制作人迈克尔·西蒙·约翰逊。非常感谢您的订阅，也一如既往感谢您的收听。今天是10月25日，星期六。

So today, a conversation with two of the people who make the music you hear on The Daily, Dan Powell and Marion Lozano. For this episode, I'm turning the host mic over to someone else who's normally behind the scenes of the show, Daily Producer Michael Simon Johnson. Thanks so much for subscribing, and as always, for listening. It's Saturday, October 25.

丹、玛丽昂，感谢你们抽空和我聊聊音乐。谢谢邀请。

Dan, Marion, thanks for sitting down to talk with me for a few minutes about music. Thanks for having us.

是啊，很荣幸能来。

Yeah. Happy to be here.

听众朋友们可能对我们都不太熟悉。我是迈克尔·西蒙·约翰逊，节目的高级制作人。作为制作人，我们的一项工作就是从不断扩充的音乐库中为节目不同段落挑选配乐——其中大部分作品就出自包括二位在内的专属作曲团队。

Listeners may not be familiar with any of us, actually. I'm Michael Simon Johnson. I'm a senior producer on the show. And what part of being a producer means is that when we work on episodes, we pick out the music to score certain sections from this growing library of tracks. And most of that music is written by a team of composers that we have, which includes the two of you.

丹，你是我们的创意技术经理，也是在这里工作时间最长的作曲家。没错。玛丽昂，你在这里也有相当长的时间了。你们两位的作品在我们《每日播报》中被大量使用。

Dan, you are our creative technical manager, and you're also the composer that's been here the longest. Correct. Marion, you've also been here quite a while. And both of you are composers whose music we use a lot on The Daily.

深感荣幸。

Honored.

能有你们真是我们的超级幸运。我每天都对你们心怀感激，我知道很多其他制作人也是这么想的。但你们确实花费了大量时间——虽然我不清楚具体多少——每周都有相当一部分时间在为我们的音乐库创作新作品，是这样吗？

We're super lucky to have you guys. I I feel grateful for you every day, and so I know a lot of the other producers do too. But you are spending a good portion of your day. I don't actually know how much, but you're spending a good portion of your week, I guess, composing music that is added to this library that we pull from. Is that right?

是的。根据节目需求每周会有所不同，但《每日播报》绝对是我们所有节目中音乐库最庞大的，可能也是我们累计投入创作时间最多的节目。

Yes. It can vary week by week depending on the show, but The Daily is by far the largest library of any of our shows, and it's probably the one we've spent the net total greatest amount of time writing music for.

不客气。

You're welcome.

好的，谢谢。我想请教你们关于为《每日播报》专门创作音乐的事。当编辑团队、制作人和编辑们在构思要制作什么样的节目时，我们有些标准——这听起来像《每日播报》的选题吗？

Yes. Thank you. Well, I wanted to ask you guys about composing music for The Daily specifically. When the editorial team, when the producers and the editors are sitting around thinking about what kinds of episodes we wanna make, you know, we have a certain criteria. Does this sound like a daily episode to us?

这个故事有《每日播报》的感觉吗？我们对这个标准有共识：特定的叙事结构、明确的要点等等。但对你们而言，思考《每日播报》意味着什么肯定很不同。那么为《每日播报》创作歌曲对你们来说意味着什么？

Does this story feel like a daily episode? We have an idea about what that means. Certain kinds of story arcs, does it have clear takeaways, that kind of thing. But I imagine for you, thinking about what The Daily means is very different. So what is making a song for The Daily mean to you?

我认为日常音乐的DNA都源自一个地方，那就是主题曲。由Wonderly创作，这是一首很棒的主题曲。我觉得它就像是孕育我们所有音乐提示的原始汤。这其中包含几个要素：一定程度的动感和推进力。

Well, I think the DNA of all daily music comes from one place, which is the theme song. Written by Wonderly, which is a great theme song. I think it's kind of the primordial soup from which all of our cues have spawned. And there are a few elements to that. There's a certain amount of momentum and propulsiveness.

乐器配置上大量使用了弦乐

There's the instrumentation that's very heavy on strings

没错。

Right.

电贝斯、电钢琴。听起来像突发新闻，像时事动态，像正在发生的当下。

Electric bass, electric piano. It feels like breaking news. It feels like current events. It feels like the now that is happening.

Marion，关于什么让音乐听起来具有日常感这点，我想我们可以播放一首你创作的歌曲，这是《每日秀》里使用频率最高的曲目之一，名为《寻找答案》。

Marion, to the point of what makes something sound daily esque, I thought we could play a song that you wrote that is one of the most used tracks in The Daily. This one is called Looking for Answers.

我对这首曲子记忆犹新，因为它最初是为一个从未播出的节目写的。后来音乐被收入曲库，我没想到会立刻被使用——但这首确实立刻就被用上了。

I remember this one very well because I wrote it originally for an episode that never aired. So the music was released to the library, and I didn't think it would be used right away. And this one was used right away.

在我看来这是经典之作。

This is classic in my mind.

那些活泼的弦乐声，非常经典的日常音效。我想我用的是马林巴琴。你们总让我别用马林巴。但有时我就想加进去，看吧，你们其实很喜欢。

Those plucky strings, very classic daily sound. I think I'm using I think it is a marimba. Marimba is something you guys ask me not to use. And sometimes I like to throw it in there as like a, see, you love it.

马林巴琴在内部被视为有点老套的播客乐器，正因如此。但它老套是因为我们爱用，所以你不用说服我们这点。

Marimba has a kind of, it's seen internally as kind of like a cliche podcast music instrument. That's why. But the reason it's cliche is because we love it. So, you don't have to convince us Yeah. Of that.

这首歌很适合《每日》节目，因为其中的乐器编排。它极其简约，正因如此能以中性方式适配。乐器方面有弦乐、马林巴琴、钢琴——

This song, I think, works well for The Daily because of the instrumentation within it. Also, it's super minimal, so it just works in a neutral sense because of how minimal it is. But instrumentation wise, strings, marimba, piano

新闻节目的标配乐器。丹，我们想播放你另一首高频使用曲目《解构》。太好了。

The news instruments. Daily. Dan, we wanna play another highly used song of yours that is called the unmaking. Great.

《解构》属于收尾类配乐，意味着这是今日要闻环节前最后一段音乐。它刻意设计得稀疏分散，带有反思特质，让你消化刚听到的内容，可能引发对本期内容的思考。开头极其简约，逐渐加入更多元素，比如拨奏弦乐——

So the unmaking is a type of cue that we would label as an ender, meaning that this is intended to be the last piece of music you hear before the here's what else you need to know today headlines part comes in. It's intentionally sparse and spread out. It also has a reflective character to it, where you're sort of meant to just digest what's happened, what you've just heard, and maybe provoke some thoughts or ruminations about the episode. It also starts in this very, very sparse way and gradually brings in a few more things. So there's some pizzicato strings.

就是那种弹拨弦乐的音效。对。还有现场电贝斯，同样非常稀疏。背景有极轻的低鸣声。

That's that plucky string sound. Correct. There's live electric bass. Again, very, very sparse. There's this very light drone in the background.

这段音乐专为适配节目最后90秒，用于主持人和记者最终对话时插入。

This is really just designed to be able to slot in in the last minute and a half of an episode in those final exchanges between the host and the reporter.

这是我们从丹那里经常使用的另一首热门曲目。这是中距离。

This is another popular track that we use a lot from Dan. This is middle distance.

所以你在中距离中听到的主要乐器是舌鼓。它之所以叫舌鼓，是因为那些音符基本上是以舌头的形状从金属上切割出来的。它能产生非常温暖悦耳的音色，特别适合用作播客音乐，因为它音色丰富，但在频率上不会与这里的人声产生冲突，非常柔和且略带低沉。

So the main instrument you're hearing in middle distance is a tongue drum. It's called a tongue drum because the individual notes are cut out of the metal in the shape of a tongue, basically. And it provides this really nice warm tonal sound. It's particularly well suited for podcast music because it has a rich sound, but there's not a lot going on frequency wise in a way that would clash with vocals here. It's very soft and kind of muted.

还有电贝斯和一些非常轻柔的合成器及木管长音加入。但这又是那种让人反思、冥想、让我们沉思片刻的曲目之一。

There's also an electric bass and some very gentle synth and woodwind drones that enter in. But this is another one of those reflective, meditative, let's ponder for a moment type of tracks.

所有这些，你知道，我听到前五秒就会说，哦，对。不，我我认得这首。感觉就像是我经常见到的一个朋友。思考制作人选择这些曲目的时机，或者至少是我在听这些曲目试图找出最合适的一首时，真的很有趣。

All of these are you know, I I hear the first five seconds, and I'm like, oh, yeah. No. I I know this one. This feels like a kind of like a friend that I see around all the time. And it's just interesting thinking about when producers are choosing these tracks, or at least when I am listening to these tracks to try to figure out which one makes the most sense.

我会听大概十秒、十五秒或三十秒，边听边想象这首歌应该是什么样的背景。但这很有趣，因为你有你的想法，我有我的想法。我们并没有交流过这些想法，只是有一定的信任。你只是信任我们作为节目制作人，头脑中对这些歌曲的使用方式和你想象的大致相同。

I listen to them for, you know, ten, fifteen, thirty seconds maybe, and I am hearing as it's playing what I think that song is supposed to be underneath. But it's just funny because you have a certain idea, I have a certain idea. And we haven't talked to each other about what those ideas are. We just there's a certain amount of trust. You're just trusting that we have a similar idea in our heads as the producers of the show that we use these songs in the way that you were imagining.

是的，同意。但也很酷的是当你们想法不同时，你设想的和我们设想的不一样，这也没关系。因为我们从未告诉过你我们是怎么设想的。

Yes. Agreed. But also, it's cool when you don't have the same idea. It's just you envisioned it different than how we envisioned it, and that's fine. Because we're never telling you how we envisioned it either.

嗯，实际上这引出了一个我们可以讨论的有趣话题：你们有多少次为《每日》制作明显不符合其常规风格的内容？你们有多少次是在反类型作曲？

Well, actually, that sort of brings up an interesting idea we could talk about, which is how often do you make stuff for The Daily that is explicitly outside the daily esque sound? How often are you sort of composing against type?

我刚来这里工作时，正经历着一种纽约夜店青年的觉醒期，经常外出，深深迷上了舞曲、浩室音乐和电子音乐。

When I first started working here, I was going through a sort of New York City club kid awakening and going out a lot and getting really into dance music and house and techno.

太棒了。

Amazing.

所以有时我会在周五下午甚至晚上留在办公室，做些电子音乐小样扔进日常音乐库。那时做了很多实验性的作品，就是随便创作，想着也许哪天节目会用上。这首《45 Hydra》就是其中之一，它是首节奏强烈、脉动推进、迷幻风格的电子乐。

And so sometimes I would be at the office late on a Friday afternoon or even evening and just make techno tracks and throw them in the daily library. So there was a lot of experimentation of just, well, let me just make whatever. Maybe the daily will use this at some point. So this is one of those tracks I made. It's called 45 Hydra, and it's just sort of a pounding, pulsing, propulsive, psychedelic techno.

它有很多无调性的纯纹理层次在不断变化。我原本只是随便做了这首即兴作品，扔进日报的Dropbox里，没想过真会被用上。后来有期节目讲WeWork创始人亚当·纽曼作为CEO的诸多出格行为，在记者叙述这些事的蒙太奇片段里，我突然听到了这首曲子。

It has a lot of atonal and kind of just purely textural layers that warp in and out. And I just sort of made this as a jam, and then threw it in the daily Dropbox, not thinking that it would ever really get any use. But then there was an episode about the WeWork founder, Adam Neumann, who had a lot of very risque behavior as a CEO. And during one of the montages in which this was all recounted by the reporter, I heard this track pop in.

要听听看吗？

Do we wanna listen to that?

有We Bank（我们银行），We Sail（我们航海），We Sleep（我们睡眠），还讨论过要搞航空公司。

There was We Bank. There was We Sail. There was We Sleep. There was talk of an airline.

We Fly（我们飞行）？

We Fly?

我们飞行，大概吧。甚至有人讨论过在火星上设立办公空间。

We Fly, presumably. There was talk of We Mars, even putting office space on the red planet.

这确实太疯狂了。

That really is wild.

确实疯狂。亚当·诺伊曼因此暴富。他还纵容自己的怪癖——比如过去就习惯光脚在办公室走动，现在更是在办公室装了私人冷水浴池、红外线桑拿房，还拥有一辆白色迈巴赫。

It was wild. So Adam Neumann becomes fantastically rich. He also indulges his eccentricities. I mean, he was known to walk around the office barefoot, but now he's installed a private plunge pool in his office, a cold plunge, an infrared sauna in his office. He has a white Maybach.

他坐着那辆配有司机的白色迈巴赫穿梭曼哈顿，车里大声播放着嘻哈音乐。他还说服公司购置了一架6000万美元的私人飞机，经常和其他高管在机舱里抽大麻。

He's, like, blaring hip hop as this chauffeured white Maybach takes him all over Manhattan. He also convinced the company to buy a $60,000,000 private plane, which he and other executives hot box.

我真是无语了。

I'm sorry.

你知道的，就是在密闭空间里抽大麻，让整个机舱充满烟雾。

That's, you know, getting high in a confined space with the marijuana smoke filling the cabin.

是啊。这可真是...叹为观止。

Yeah. This is this is amazing.

我是说，我主要就是很自豪能为迈克尔第一次了解hotboxing（车内密闭空间吸食大麻）的经历配乐。

I mean, I'm mainly just proud I could provide the soundtrack to Michael learning what hotboxing is for the first time.

是啊。

Yeah.

说正经的，我常开玩笑说我对播客音乐的所有认知都来自俱乐部音乐。其实这话半真半假，因为两者确实承担着非常相似的功能性角色。详细说说？播客音乐需要有重复性和极简性——重复是为了不分散听众注意力，极简是为了不掩盖人声。但同时又要有恰到好处的变化，因为如果太重复就会听起来像循环播放，显得陈旧乏味。

Jokes aside, I have this bit I sometimes say that everything I learned about podcast music, I learned from club music. And I'm only half kidding because they are actually serving really similar functional roles. Tell us more. So podcast music has to be repetitive and minimal in a way where you have things that are repeating so as not to distract the listener, minimal so as not to take away from the voice of the people talking. But there also needs to be just the right amount of variation, because if it's too repetitive, it's just gonna sound like a loop and get old and feel very, very stale and stagnant.

这样听众就会过度注意到本不该被注意的背景音乐。

And the listener will become aware of the music in a way that they shouldn't.

没错，这可不是我们想要的。舞曲其实也很相似，你常常需要创作出既有重复又随时间略有变化的旋律，但变化又不能太大，因为要保持稳定的节奏律动。所以谁知道呢？也许这两者真是跨学科的音乐研究，又或者我只是在为自己业余时间的音乐品味找借口...

Yeah. Which we don't want. Dance music can actually be very similar, and that you're often trying to make things that repeat and vary a little bit over time, but also not so much because things need to stay in a consistent groove. So who knows? Maybe the two are, you know, cross disciplinary musical studies, or maybe I'm just trying to justify my, you know, off hours music tastes Yeah.

强行关联到本职工作。

Into my day job.

作为具有专业价值的东西。我觉得确实如此。从你为我们创作的配乐中能听出来，不仅是电子乐，你提到的那些细微变化我也能明显感受到。

As as having professional value. I think it does. I I can hear it in the music that you write for us, and not just the electronic music, but also I feel very conscious of those small variations that you're talking about.

哦，好的。

Oh, good.

我感觉被关注到了。玛丽昂，

I feel so seen. Marion,

你为这部剧创作了哪种非主流、非日常风格的音乐？

what kind of music have you written for the show that is the kind of offbeat, non daily sound?

贝德-斯图九十年代嘻哈。这首曲子以布鲁克林的贝德-斯图社区命名，因为贝就来自那里。

Bed Stuy, nineties hip hop. I named this track off of the neighborhood, Betsdie in Brooklyn, because that's where Bay is from.

嗯。

Mhmm.

原本是为纪念嘻哈五十周年的某集写的，可惜那集没播出。

And it was originally written for an episode, rest in peace, that did not air on fifty years of hip hop.

是的。我当时参与那集制作，非常期待。可惜最终没播出。

Yes. I was working on that episode. I was very excited about it. It did not air.

是的。安息吧。

Yes. RIP.

嘻哈和R&B是我最爱的音乐类型。所以只要有机会创作这类风格，我就会全身心投入。没错，我写了这首歌，带有经典的boom bap鼓点节奏，底鼓和军鼓的搭配。嗯哼。

Hip hop and R and B are my favorite genres of music. So any excuse to write in that vein, I I'm all over. So, yeah. I wrote this song that has that classic boom bap sound, the kick and the snare. Mhmm.

鼓点非常清脆。

Very crisp percussion.

对。然后还有循环演奏的贝斯线和吉他旋律。这是刻意设计的，因为九十年代嘻哈就是让说唱歌手在循环伴奏上即兴发挥。

Yeah. And then there is a bass line and a guitar line that are playing on a loop. And that's intentional because nineties hip hop is very much a rapper laying bars over a loop.

这些循环段落——我是说吉他和贝斯听起来也像是从某张老黑胶唱片里的放克歌曲采样来的？就像九十年代嘻哈制作人常做的那样？

And these loops, I mean, the the guitar and the bass also sound like they are derived from some funk song that you found somewhere on an old vinyl in the same way that nine years hip hop producers would?

嗯，我就是想做出那种黑胶唱片特有的粗粝质感。对，就像采样那种感觉。算是——

Well, I wanted to just sound a little gritty, like it was something ripped from a vinyl. So, yeah, like samples. Sort

问你们个有点特别的问题。希望听众从音乐中获得什么？因为作为音乐人，你们创作时肯定希望人们来听。但你们写的音乐本质上又在某种程度上追求'隐形'。

of a strange question for you guys. What do you hope that listeners take away from the music? Because on the one hand, you're musicians. I imagine that when you envisioned being a musician, it was to create music that you wanted people to listen to. But the nature of the music that you're writing is to be a little bit more invisible on some level.

正如你之前所说，Dan，制作音乐如果太过显眼反而会适得其反。所以我很好奇你是如何看待听众与你的音乐互动的。

And making music, as you said earlier, Dan, that is too noticeable sort of defeats the whole point of this. So I'm curious about how you think about the the listeners engaging with your with your music.

是的，我喜欢把音乐和播客看作荧光笔，特别是在需要解释的时刻。有时听众可能会走神，而我认为我们的音乐就是用来突出某个部分的方式。我们既要保持趣味性，又不能分散注意力，所以这里面有很多层次。

Yeah. I I like to think of music and podcast as highlighter, especially in moments that are very explainery. I think sometimes a listener can tune out for a second, and I think of our music as a way to highlight a section. And we gotta keep it interesting, but not distracting at the same time. So there are a lot of layers to it.

但总的来说，当我考虑听众时，我想的是如何把他们重新吸引回来。

But I think in general, when I think about the listener, I think about drawing them back in.

就像我之前说的，我感受到你们作为制作人对我们的信任，让我们恰当地使用你们的音乐，并尊重其创作初衷。如果我没表达充分的话，我真的很感激你们所做的一切，为这个节目付出。所有制作人和编辑都认为音乐对节目至关重要。Dan，Marion，非常感谢你们的到来。

Well, like I said before, I feel the trust that you put in us as producers to use your music adequately and in a way that honors the intention of it. And if I haven't expressed this sufficiently enough, I feel very grateful that you guys do what you do, that you do it for this show. All of the producers and editors consider the music very, very essential to the show. Dan, Marion, thank you so much for stopping by.

谢谢邀请我们，这也是我们非常乐意做的事情。是的，绝对如此。

Thank you for having us, and something we're very grateful to do on our end as well. Yeah. Absolutely.

当然。

Of course.

我们只是想让你在凌晨4点需要找东西时轻松些，比如‘天啊，我该怎么收尾？’你懂吧？

We just wanna make your life easier when it's 4AM and you need to find, you know, something that you put in, like, oh god. How am I gonna end this? You know?

这太真实了。毫不夸张地说，就是这样。所以，是的，我真的很感激。

That's so real. That's, like, not an exaggeration. So Yeah. I really appreciate it.

希望不是凌晨4点。希望更像是凌晨3点。

I hope it's not 4AM. I hope it's more like 3AM.

是啊，有时候是午夜时分，那总是很美好。谢谢大家。谢谢。是的。

Yeah. Sometimes it's sometimes it's midnight, and that's always nice. Thanks, guys. Thank you. Yeah.

本期节目由Michael Simon Johnson和Rochelle Bonja制作，由Lexi Diao和Paige Cowet编辑，音乐由Dan Powell和Marian Lozano创作，技术由Chris Wood负责。我是Natalie Ketrowev，下次见。

Today's episode was produced by Michael Simon Johnson and Rochelle Bonja. It was edited by Lexi Diao and Paige Cowet. Contains music by Dan Powell and Marian Lozano and was engineered by Chris Wood. I'm Natalie Ketrowev. See you next time.