泽连斯基第二次椭圆形办公室会晤安然无恙

这里是《纽约时报》，我是瑞秋·艾布拉姆斯，您正在收听的是《每日播报》。今天，欧洲领导人火速赶往华盛顿特区，在乌克兰总统弗拉基米尔·泽连斯基周一与特朗普总统会晤时表达支持。这是自二月份两人在白宫椭圆形办公室激烈交锋后首次面对面会晤。此次会面中，泽连斯基先生试图以奉承和顺从的姿态，继续争取美国对乌克兰与俄罗斯持续战争的支持。今天，我的同事迈克尔·施瓦茨将解析泽连斯基策略转变的原因，以及这次会面如何可能为他的停战努力带来新优势。

From The New York Times, I'm Rachel Abrams, and this is The Daily. Today, European leaders raced to Washington DC to show their support for Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskyy as he met with president Trump on Monday. It was the two men's first face to face meeting in the White House since their blow up in the Oval Office back in February. This time, mister Zelensky tried flattery and deference as he continues to press The United States for support in Ukraine's ongoing war with Russia. Today, my colleague Michael Schwarz explains why Zelensky's approach has changed and how this meeting may give him a new advantage in his efforts to end the war.

今天是8月19日，星期二。迈克尔·施瓦茨，我们邀请您是因为自乌克兰战争还只是我们节目讨论的一个构想时，您就开始报道相关新闻。在这个新闻爆棚的日子还抽空接受采访，我们深表感谢。

It's Tuesday, August 19. Michael Schwartz, we're talking to you because you have covered the Ukraine war since it was just an idea that we had you on the show to talk about. So we really appreciate you making the time on such a busy news day.

随时效劳。

Anytime.

那么迈克尔，今天欧洲的领导人少了很多，因为他们中多数人都飞往华盛顿参加这场仓促组织但规模盛大的会议——与特朗普总统及乌克兰总统弗拉基米尔·泽连斯基的会晤。首先请为我们解读这场会议的核心议题。

So, Michael, there were a lot fewer European leaders in Europe today because so many of them flew to Washington DC for this kind of hastily organized but huge meeting with president Trump and Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelensky. So to start, explain to us what this meeting was all about.

这场会议是对上周特朗普总统在阿拉斯加与俄罗斯总统弗拉基米尔·普京会晤的回应。这是特朗普政府为推动乌克兰战争（即将进入第四年）达成某种解决方案的最新举措。白宫、特朗普与乌克兰总统泽连斯基之间关于促成和平协议的讨论时断时续已有数月。

This meeting was a response to a summit that president Trump had with his Russian counterpart, president Vladimir Putin of Russia in Alaska last week. And this is the latest in a series of efforts by the Trump administration to force some kind of settlements to the war in Ukraine, which is coming up on its fourth year. And there have been these on again and off again conversations between the White House, Trump, and the Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskyy about trying to come together and forge some kind of peace deal.

让我们更详细谈谈你提到的上周会晤。我们在周五节目里预判过，当时欧洲和乌克兰方面明显担忧的是——直白地说——特朗普可能会做出过多让步，向普京让渡重大利益。上周会晤实际发生了什么？又如何促成了周一的会面？

Let's talk about that meeting that you mentioned last week a little bit more. We previewed it on Friday's show, and it was clear going into that meeting what specifically the Europeans and Ukraine were worried about. That basically Trump would give away the store, so to speak, that he would make too many concessions to Putin. What actually happened during that meeting last week, and how did that meeting contribute to the meetings we saw on Monday?

首先要说明的是，尽管会晤声势浩大，我们并不清楚具体细节。特朗普与普京进行了三小时闭门会谈，会后声明也未有实质性内容。

I think it's important to state, firstly, that we don't know exactly what happened to that meeting despite all the fanfare around it. Trump and Putin went into this meeting. They had a three hour conversation. They made statements. That did not go into any kind of detail.

我们获得的信息来自事后听取简报的欧洲领导人及特朗普本人。关键结论是：这次会晤对泽连斯基不利。

And so what we got about the meeting came out afterwards from both European leaders who were briefed on the call and from Trump himself. And the bottom line was it didn't go well for Zelenskyy.

具体表现在？

How so?

过去几个月，特朗普看似认同了泽连斯基的立场。他对普京袭击乌克兰城市造成平民伤亡感到愤怒，接受了泽连斯基关于必须在和平谈判前实现停火的主张。赴阿拉斯加前他公开表示，若俄罗斯不达成停火协议将面临严重后果。

For several months, it seemed that Trump had come around to Zelenskyy's way of thinking. Trump was angry with Vladimir Putin about strikes on cities in Ukraine that were killing civilians. He'd come around to Zelenskyy's position that a ceasefire needed to occur before any negotiation over a possible peace deal. He came out and stated that before traveling to Alaska. He said that Russia would suffer severe consequences if they didn't leave Alaska with a ceasefire deal.

如果弗拉基米尔·普京在你们会晤后不同意停止战争，俄罗斯会面临任何后果吗？

Will Russia face any consequences if Vladimir Putin does not agree to stop the war after your meeting

周五？是的，他们会的。没错。会有什么后果？

on Friday? Yes. They will. Yeah. What will there consequences?

会有后果的。

Will be consequences.

关税？

Tariffs?

会有——我不必明说。将会有非常严重的后果。是的。

There will be I don't have to say. There will be very severe consequences. Yes.

然后他转身离开，在那次会晤后出来，他的声明似乎更全面地与弗拉基米尔·普京所期望的保持一致。

And then he turned around, and after that meeting, came out, and his statements seem to align more fully with what Vladimir Putin had desired.

现在，我们每周将真正阻止五六千、七千人被杀，普京总统和我一样希望看到这一点。所以，总统先生，再次非常感谢您。

Right now, we're gonna stop really five, six, 7,000 thousands of people a week from being killed, and president Putin wants to see that as much as I do. So, again, mister president, I'd like to thank you very much. And

他抛弃了停火是进一步谈判前提的想法。他说他同意双方在和平协议细节敲定期间继续战斗。他还描述了似乎是普京的一种让步，即根据特朗普的说法，只要普京获得被称为顿巴斯的乌克兰东部一大片领土，他就会同意停止战斗并冻结战争在当前战线。这似乎将泽连斯基置于一个非常、非常艰难的境地，必须回应对他来说无法接受的条件。首先，对乌克兰人来说，放弃领土是违宪的。

He jettisoned the idea that a cease fire was a prerequisite for further talks. He said that he was okay with the two sides continuing to fight while the details of the peace deal came together. And he also described what seemed to be a kind of concession from Vladimir Putin, which is Putin, according to Trump, would agree to halt fighting and freeze the war along the current lines so long as he obtained a large chunk of territory in Eastern Ukraine known as the Donbas. This put Zelensky, it would seem, in a very, very difficult position of having to respond to something that for him is untenable. Giving up territory, one, for the Ukrainians is against the constitution.

宪法规定，除非通过全民公投，否则总统不得放弃领土。其次，这是乌克兰的战略要地，设防严密的战略区域，如果放弃，将使他们在俄罗斯再次进攻时处于脆弱境地。

There's a constitutional rule preventing the president from giving up territory if it's not done through a referendum. And two, this is a strategic area, strategic well fortified area for Ukraine that would leave them vulnerable should Russia attack again if they were to give that up.

那么好吧。所有这些导致泽连斯基来到白宫。关于为什么这么多欧洲领导人也决定随行，我们知道些什么？

So okay. So all of that leads to Zelenskyy coming to the White House. What do we know about why so many European leaders decided to also join him there?

我认为我们确切知道他们为何与他同行，但可以推测。上次弗拉基米尔·泽连斯基前往椭圆形办公室与特朗普会面时，情况堪称灾难性。彻头彻尾的灾难。

I think we know specifically why they joined him there, but we can surmise. The last time that Volodymyr Zelenskyy went to the Oval Office and met with Trump, it was Disastrous. An absolute disaster.

整场会议中你说过一句谢谢吗？没有。在这整个会议期间，你有说过感谢吗？

Have you said thank you once in that entire meeting? No. In this entire meeting, have you said thank As

我想所有人都记得，那次会面最终演变成争吵，尤其是当副总统J.D.万斯指责泽连斯基不够感恩的时候。

everyone, I think, remembers, it devolved into a shouting match, in particular when vice president J. D. Vance accused Zelensky of not being grateful enough.

就是这样。我告诉你。说声谢谢，我承认存在分歧。

Business like this. I tell you. To say thank you, I accept accept that there are disagreements.

这引发了美乌之间数月的紧张局势。曾有一段时间特朗普切断了乌克兰用于定位敌军的情报共享，还曾中断必要武器供应，这可能是乌克兰自开战以来面临的最严峻局面。我认为欧洲领导人与泽连斯基共同策划了这个方案，本质上是为泽连斯基提供后援。这次泽连斯基将带着随行团队而非独自进入白宫。

This set off a few months of really tense situation between The United States and Ukraine. There was a time when Trump cut off intelligence that Ukraine uses to target enemy troops. There was a time that they cut off supplies of needed weaponry, and this was probably the most dire situation that Ukraine founded in in since the beginning of the war. And I think the European leaders, together with Zelensky, hatched this plan to basically give Zelensky backup. Zelensky was gonna bring a posse with him this time rather than going alone into the White House.

没错。所有这些导致了今天这个相当引人注目的场景——众多欧洲领导人集体造访白宫。能否为我们描述下现场情况？

Right. And all of that leads to this pretty remarkable scene where you have all of these European leaders basically descending on the White House. Can you just sort of set the scene for us?

当然。用特朗普的话说，这堪称精彩电视画面。白宫布置了持旗仪仗队，成队的SUV载着全球最具权势的领导人陆续抵达，参加这场非同寻常的聚会。

Yeah. I mean, as as Trump would say, it was great television. You had the White House decked out with military honor guard holding flags. You have fleets of SUVs streaming in, dropping off some of the world's most powerful leaders to go into the White House for this really kind of extraordinary gathering of people.

能否列举下今天欧洲方面都有哪些人出席？

Can you just run through who was there today from the European side?

好的。包括乌克兰总统弗拉基米尔·泽连斯基、英国首相、法国总统、意大利总理、德国总理、芬兰总统、欧盟委员会主席以及北约秘书长。

Yes. It was, obviously, president Volodymyr Zelenskyy's Ukraine, the British prime minister, French president, Italian prime minister, the German chancellor, the Finnish president, the European commission president, and the NATO secretary general.

显然，如你所言，上次特朗普与泽连斯基灾难性的会面必定萦绕在每个人心头。我观看了记者会，注意到两人之间的氛围与上次截然不同。能否详细描述他们的互动？

And clearly, the last, as you put it, disastrous meeting between Trump and Zelensky must have been on everybody's mind. The tone I watched the press conference, and the tone was remarkably different between these two men. Can you describe their interactions a little bit more?

非常感谢。能与乌克兰总统共处是我们的荣幸。我们进行了许多有益的讨论和对话，我认为在许多方面都取得了非常非常实质性的进展。

Well, thank you very much. It's an honor to have the president of Ukraine with us. We've had a lot of good discussions. We've had lot of good talks, and I think progress is being made, very very substantial progress in many ways.

尽管他们讨论的主题涉及乌克兰持续的血腥战斗，但现场仍有些近乎欢快的时刻。

Despite the the topic that they were there to discuss and the continuing ongoing bloody fighting in Ukraine, there were points that were almost jovial.

你说战争期间不能举行选举。那我问你，三年半后如果我们恰巧与某国交战，是不是就不用选举了？哦，这倒有趣。我好奇那些假...你喜欢这个话题是吧？

So you say during during the war, you can't have elections. So let me just say, three and a half years from now so you mean if we happen to be in a war with somebody, no more elections. Oh, it's good. I wonder what the I wonder what the fake You like this issue? Yeah.

不。

No.

几乎有种互相拍背的轻松氛围。特朗普还特意岔开话题称赞泽连斯基的外表。要知道，就在二月的会晤中，泽连斯基的着装曾是主要争议点之一。他当时...

It No. Almost felt like there was backslapping going on. Trump went on a small segue to describe how good Zelensky looked. And this is, of course, coming on the heels of that meeting in February where one of the major points of contention was the way that Zelensky was dressed. He is

没错。我记得他们批评他没穿正装。

That's right. They were they criticized him for not wearing a suit, if I remember correctly.

对。而这次会面中，泽连斯基穿着某种野战服——这套全黑装束配夹克，被外界视为某种妥协。他曾在教皇方济各葬礼等场合穿过。

Right. And in this meeting, Zelensky, in what some are describing as a kind of concession, was in a kind of field suit, this all black outfit with a jacket that he had he had worn before the funeral of Pope Francis and on other occasions.

泽连斯基总统，你这套衣服太棒了。我也这么觉得。是啊，你看上去很精神。

President Zelensky, you look fabulous in that suit. I said the same. Yeah. Look you look good.

我也说了同样的话。

I said the same thing.

是啊，很帅气。我说上次攻击你的人...看到了吗？那是个...

Yeah. Looks good. I said someone that attacked you last time. See? That was an

特朗普特意对此事发表评论，一位曾因泽连斯基在白宫未穿正装而攻击他的右翼记者道歉了，说他看起来很棒。

Trump went out of his way to comment on that, and one of the journalists a right wing journalist who had attacked Zelensky for his lack of a suit in the White House apologized and said he looked great.

我向你道歉。听着，你看起来棒极了。不，总统先生，我的第一个问题是——还是同一套西装。你看，我可是让你换上了。

I apologize to you. Look, you look wonderful. No. My first question for you, president In the same suit. You see, I changed you on.

也许你的那套好得多。

Maybe yours is much better.

但泽连斯基显得更有掌控力。值得注意的是，JD·万斯在整个事件中一言不发，而正是他上次带头反对泽连斯基。这次他与马可·卢比奥等人安静地坐着，而特朗普基本让泽连斯基畅所欲言——他谈到了战争对平民造成的伤害。

But Zelensky seemed much more in command. It's also notable that JD Vance said nothing throughout the entire affair, and it was JD Vance that really led the charge against Zelensky the first time, and he sat quietly with Marco Rubio and others. While Zelensky was pretty much given the floor by Trump to state his peace, he spoke about the toll that the war has had on civilians.

我们每天都生活在袭击之下。今天发生了多起袭击，很多人受伤，还有个孩子死了，很小的孩子。

We live under each day attacks. You know, that today have been a lot of attacks and a lot of wounded people, and the child was dead. Small one.

他指出，在抵达白宫前的几小时，乌克兰主要城市遭遇系列空袭，目前已造成约14人死亡，包括一名幼童。特朗普对此表达了深切同情。

He noted that, in the hours before he arrived at the White House, there was a series of strikes on major cities in Ukraine that killed, at this point, it's about 14 people, I think, including a small child. And Trump really expressed sympathy for this.

近四年来...上周很多人遇难。我是说，数百万人丧生，但上周又有许多人因各种原因死去。

It's been almost four years now that, a lot of people were killed last week. A lot of people last week. I mean, millions of people killed, but a lot of people last week for whatever reason.

特朗普长期对俄罗斯袭击乌克兰平民区感到不满，而普京允许这些袭击发生令人意外。当时泽连斯基即将与特朗普对话，这实际上给了泽连斯基一个争取特朗普支持的机会。

Trump has long sort of been frustrated by Russia's targeting of civilian areas in Ukraine, and it was sort of a surprising move by Putin to allow these strikes to go forward. Justice Zelenskyy was on the verge of talking to Trump. He basically gave Zelensky a wedge with which to use with Trump to to bring him around to his position.

我们看到的不仅是截然不同的泽连斯基，听起来还有个截然不同的特朗普——一个真正给予泽连斯基向世界陈述立场的平台的特朗普。

What we saw was basically not just a very different Zelensky, but also a very different Trump, it sounds like. A Trump who's really giving Zelensky a platform to make his case to the world.

确实如此。二月份泽连斯基与特朗普团队在白宫的初次会面像是有预谋的伏击，而这次会面似乎是为让泽连斯基充分表达立场。在阿拉斯加，普京和特朗普会晤后——虽然三小时会谈后露面时间不足十五分钟——只是泛泛而谈会议多么成功，未透露任何细节。而这次他们深入探讨了安全保障等实质性问题。

I think that's right. The initial meeting in February between Zelensky and Trump and his team at the White House seemed like a premeditated ambush. This meeting seemed like it was set up to allow Zelensky to state his peace. In Alaska, Putin and Trump came out for, I don't know, it it must have been less than fifteen minutes in total, following their three hour discussion, delivered a series of platitudes about how great the meeting went and provided no details. Here, they really got into some of the substantive issues such as security guarantees.

但我们将为他们提供非常完善的保护，非常可靠的安全保障。这是其中的一部分。而那些等待我们的人，我认为他们与我们志同道合。他们也想要伸出援手。

But we will give them very good protection, very good security. That's part of it. And the people that are waiting for us, they are I think they're very like minded. They wanna they wanna help out also.

那么，我们能稍微深入探讨一下吗？比如，能否请您更详细地解释摆在谈判桌上的具体内容，那些条款的实际含义是什么？

Well, can we get into that a little bit? Like, can you just explain to us a bit more about what exactly is on the table, what those terms actually mean?

没错。事实上我们并不完全清楚谈判内容，因为我们并不确切知道俄方除了全面控制乌克兰外还想要什么，甚至俄罗斯的立场是否自普京宣布入侵以来有所改变。但从乌克兰方面来看，泽连斯基首先提出的要求，我认为是停火。

Right. Yeah. We don't exactly know what's on the table because we don't exactly know what's what the Russian side wants other than full control over Ukraine or whether even the Russian position has changed at all from the moment that Putin announced his invasion. But from the Ukrainian side, Zelensky came in with his first demand, I would say, a ceasefire.

是的。但泽连斯基反复强调过，在炸弹如雨点般落下的情况下，我为什么要参加谈判？

Right. But Zelensky has said over and over again, like, why would I enter negotiations with bombs raining down on me, basically?

正是如此。而普京今天炮击这些城市的行为，实质上印证了泽连斯基的观点。在今天的会议中，尽管泽连斯基和其他欧洲领导人持续施压，特朗普在停火问题上似乎毫不动摇。另一个议题是安全保障问题。当被问及乌克兰未来稳定需要美国提供何种安全保障时，泽连斯基...

Exactly. And Putin basically proved his point by shelling these, these cities today. In the meetings today, Trump didn't appear to waver at all on the ceasefire despite Zelenskyy continuing to press him on this as well as, other European leaders. The other issue on the table is one of security guarantees. Zelenskyy, for his part, he was asked sort of what sort of security guarantees Ukraine needed from The United States when it comes to the future of its stability.

您需要特朗普总统提供怎样的国家担保才能达成协议？是美国驻军、情报支持还是军事装备？具体是什么？

What country guarantees do you need from president Trump to be able to make a deal? Is it American troops, intelligent, equipment? What is it?

泽连斯基用一个词回答：一切。

And Zelensky answered with one word, everything.

实际上，这包含两个部分。首先是一支强大的乌克兰军队。

Really, we it's it's includes two parts. First, strong Ukrainian army.

而特朗普的立场在这里似乎对乌克兰更为有利。在长期抗拒向乌克兰提供任何形式的安全保障后，特朗普最近态度有所松动，表示支持由美国背书的安全保障。但今天华盛顿传递出的信息是：这场战争已超出俄乌两国范畴。众多欧洲领导人和北约秘书长出席的事实表明，欧洲将乌克兰战争视为自身安全问题。关键在于特朗普是否会认同这点，还是重新调整美国立场，更倾向于普京主张的强国划分势力范围、弱国无话语权的世界格局。

And this is where Trump's position seems to be a bit more favorable to the Ukrainians. After long resisting, I think, promising any kind of security guarantees for the Ukrainians, Trump has wavered recently in saying that, yes, he is in favor of some kind of security guarantee backed up by The United States. But I think the message that was delivered today in Washington is that this war is bigger than just Russia and Ukraine. The fact that there are so many European leaders there plus the NATO general secretary, it shows that Europe considers the war in Ukraine to be about their security as well. And the question is whether Trump is gonna go along with that or whether Trump is going to reorient The United States and align more with Putin and Putin's idea of the world, which is a world divided among great powers with lesser powers having not much say.

我们稍后继续。

We'll be right back.

到目前为止，我们度过了非常成功的一天。在努力结束杀戮和停止乌克兰战争的过程中，我们进行了重要讨论。我们都在为同一个目标努力。非常

We've had a very successful day thus far. Important discussions as we work to end the killing and stop the war in Ukraine. We're all working for the same goal. Very

简单。特朗普、泽连斯基和其他欧洲领导人之间的会议进行得如何？

simple. How did the meeting go between Trump, Zelensky, and the other European leaders?

在与欧洲领导人会面的媒体公开环节中，整体基调与泽连斯基会面时非常相似。

In the portion of the meeting with European leaders that was orchestrated for the press, the tone was very similar to that with Zelensky.

非常好。你的古铜肤色看起来很棒。你在哪里晒的？我也想我也想晒成这样。每个人

Very good. Look great with your tan. Where'd you get that tan? I wanna I wanna get a tan like Everybody

都处于非常愉快的情绪中。从欧洲领导人的角度来看，重点似乎是要奉承特朗普。

was in a very jovial mood. The point seems to have been, from the European leader's perspective, to flatter Trump.

非常感谢您，总统先生。我认为过去两周我们在结束这场战争方面取得的进展，可能比过去三年半还要多。

Thank you very much, mister president. I think in the past two weeks, we've probably had more progress in ending this war than we have in the past three and a half years.

我会非常简短。我真心感谢您，美国总统，亲爱的唐纳德，因为正如我之前所说，您打破了僵局。

I will be very brief. I really want to thank you, president of The United States, dear Donald, for the fact that you, as I said before, broke the deadlock.

现场有很多感谢之词，很多人赞扬特朗普促成了这些谈判。

There was a lot of thank yous, a lot of people praising Trump for just making these negotiations happen.

所以有些事情正在改变。有些事情已经改变。这要感谢您。

So something is changing. Something has changed. Thanks to you.

迄今为止，没有人能推动到这个程度。为此我感谢您。他们这样做是因为知道，要让特朗普支持他们关于乌克兰未来和欧洲安全未来的计划，就必须这么做。归根结底，欧洲需要美国。归根结底，乌克兰需要美国。

So far, nobody nobody's been able to bring it to this point. So I thank you for that. They're doing this because they know that this is what they need to do to get Donald Trump on board with their plan for the future of Ukraine and the future of European security. The bottom line is that Europe needs The United States. The bottom line is Ukraine needs The United States.

而美国已不再是一个保障。美国在欧洲的支持，美国在乌克兰的支持已不再确定。这正是这次会议的核心议题。

And The United States is no longer a guarantee. The support of The United States in Europe, the support of The United States in Ukraine is no longer a guarantee. And that's what this meeting was about.

除了表达大量感谢和赞美之外，他们实际上讨论了哪些摆在桌面上的实质内容？

And besides saying a lot of thank yous and a lot of praise, what did they actually sort of discuss in terms of the substance of what's on the table?

会议进行到此时，我们首次看到了一些反对意见。坦白说，我们都希望看到停火。争论的焦点集中在停火问题上。

At this point in the meeting, this was the first time we started to see a little bit of pushback. To be honest, we all would like to see a ceasefire. Where things became a bit more pointed was over the issue of a ceasefire.

嗯。

Mhmm.

德国总理弗里德里希·默茨曾直接表示不同意特朗普总统的观点，他说无法想象下次会议能在没有停火的情况下举行。我们必须推动停火，并向俄罗斯施压，因为当前这些努力的可信度至少取决于实现停火。他强调必须在未来谈判前实现停火，并敦促特朗普优先解决停火问题。

And at one point, Friedrich Mertz, the chancellor of Germany, stated flatly his disagreement with president Trump. I can't imagine that the next meeting would took place without a ceasefire. So let's work on that, and let's try to put pressure on Russia because the credibility of these efforts these efforts we are undertaking today are depending on at least a ceasefire. He said that a ceasefire had to happen before any future negotiations, And he urged Trump to focus on a ceasefire first and foremost.

关于安全保障问题，他们在会议上的立场是什么？

What was their position on security guarantees at this meeting?

安全保障的具体方案尚未成形。根据我们的理解，设想是向乌克兰派驻某种国际部队。特朗普在今天众多记者会中被问及此事时曾表示支持，当被问到‘你们团队讨论的安全保障会涉及美军吗？’

The security guarantees have not been fleshed out. The idea, as we understand it, is there would be some kind of foreign contingent of troops presented and placed in Ukraine. And Trump has previously said that he would be supportive of that when asked about that in, one of the many news conferences today. Your team has talked about security guarantees. Could that involve US troops?

未来会排除这种可能性吗？

Would you rule that out in the future?

我们可能会在今天晚些时候告知你们。

We'll let you know that maybe later today.

他并未排除美国派兵的可能性，表示这将留待后续谈判决定。但过去他非常明确地表示不会派遣美军作为乌克兰的安全保障。

He did not rule out that The US would send troops. He said this is something that would be negotiated down the line. In the past, has been very, very clear that he would not send US troops to act as a security guarantee in Ukraine.

确实。这对他来说似乎是个巨大的方向转变。

Right. That seems like a huge change of direction for him.

目前尚不清楚特朗普是口误还是故意含糊其辞。

It's unclear whether Trump perhaps misspoke a little bit or was being intentionally coy.

明白了。

I see.

但没错，当被问及是否愿意向乌克兰派遣军队时，他并没有给出明确的否定回答。嗯。

But, yeah, he did not give an unequivocal no Mhmm. When asked whether he would be willing to send troops into Ukraine.

会有很多...会有很多援助。在安全方面会有大量帮助，情况会好转的。

There'll be a lot of there'll be a lot of help. When it comes to security, there's gonna be a lot of help. It's gonna be good.

但目前这一切都还停留在理论层面。首先，这是普京的红线——正是乌克兰与西方军事关系日益紧密这个理由，让他声称自己最初入侵了乌克兰。俄罗斯外交部发布的声明似乎特意选在这些谈判开始时放出，完全排除了任何北约盟军进入乌克兰的可能性，称这对他们而言是禁区。

But this this is all theoretical at this point. First of all, this is the red line for Putin. This is the reason Ukraine's kind of increasingly close relationship with the West militarily that he claims he invaded Ukraine in the first place. A statement released by the Russian foreign ministry timed, it seems, to come out right when these negotiations were starting, took this idea of any troops aligned with NATO entering Ukraine completely off the table. They said that this is a no go area for us.

所以不清楚在这个问题上还有多少回旋余地。

So it's not clear how much wiggle room there is on that point.

但关于这条红线和欧洲向乌俄冲突前线派兵的问题，我想先退一步谈谈欧洲国家扮演的角色。因为他们并非急于派兵上前线，对吧？这场战争已持续太久，实际上感觉美国和其他国家给乌克兰的支持刚好够它继续打下去，但坦白说，并不足以让他们真正赢得战争。就像你提到的，没有地面部队介入，欧洲和美国至今都不愿这么做，因为他们不想被拖入更广泛的冲突。

But to that point about the red line, and Europe sending troops to the front lines of this Ukraine Russia conflict, I just wanna step back for a minute here and talk about the role that these European countries seem to be playing. Because it's not like they are itching to send troops to the front lines. Right? Like, this war has been grinding on forever, and it actually feels like The US and everybody else is sending enough support to Ukraine so that it can keep fighting, but not enough support to, frankly, allow them to actually win the war. Like, as you mentioned, there are no troops on the ground, and Europe and The United States seem unwilling to do that, at least up until now, because they don't wanna be dragged into this wider conflict.

所以尽管这些欧洲领导人似乎都愿意中断夏季度假飞往白宫，在与特朗普的会晤中支持泽连斯基，他们实际承诺了什么？

And so even though all of these European leaders seem to have been willing to interrupt their summer vacations to fly out to the White House and have Zelensky's back in these meetings with Trump, What are they actually committed to?

我认为你精准阐述了乌克兰自开战以来对西方支援的抱怨。这个抱怨正如你所说——西方只想给我们刚够生存的资源，而非刚够胜利的资源。问题在于现在这种情况是否正在改变。在特朗普总统的推动下，确实如你所言，目前没有国家考虑向乌克兰派兵。

I think you've laid out perfectly the Ukrainian complaint about Western support from the very beginning of this war. That complaint goes I'll just reiterate what you said because you said it eloquently, that the West wants to give us just enough to survive. They don't wanna give us just enough to win. And the question is whether that is changing at this point. And at president Trump's prompting, yes, I think you're right that no country is willing to consider sending troops to Ukraine at this moment.

曾有一度，法国总统埃马纽埃尔·马克龙提出过这种可能性。但目前欧洲并未认真讨论向乌克兰派遣部队的问题。不过欧洲局势正在变化。特朗普的言论惊醒了欧洲人，促使他们更严肃地思考自身防务。二战后的传统共识是双方达成了交换——美国提供安全保护伞，让欧洲得以重建，无需在重建同时担忧自卫问题。

There was a time when Emmanuel Macron, the French president, raised this possibility, But there's no serious discussion of any troops going into Ukraine at the moment from Europe. But things are changing in Europe. Trump has spooked the Europeans into thinking more seriously about their defense. The conventional wisdom after World War two was that there was an exchange made. The United States would provide a security blanket so that Europe could rebuild itself and not have to worry about also protecting itself while it did so.

特朗普来到欧洲后，我认为许多欧洲人都会认同他的观点并表示：我们厌倦了在你们的安全事务中扮演如此重要的角色，现在该你们承担起责任了。欧洲开始重新审视那些过去看似不可想象的问题。比如德国——这个在战后八十年间竭力破除军国主义历史的国家——正在重新扩充军备。因此未来讨论欧洲在乌克兰安全事务中扮演更强势角色并非不可能，但目前显然还未到那一步。

Trump has come to Europe, and I think many Europeans agree and said, you know, we're tired of taking such a strong role in your security. It's time for you to start pulling your weight. And Europe is beginning to rethink some of these questions that seemed in the past to be impossible to imagine. You know, Germany, which spent eighty years trying to break its past culture of militarism after World War two, is once again building up its military. So it's not out of the question that a stronger European role in providing for Ukrainian security could be on the table for discussion sort of in the future, but we're certainly not there yet.

但值得注意的是，特朗普施压的对象不仅限于德国。事实上，他成功迫使北约各国承诺增加国防开支。这些举措虽不直接针对乌克兰防务，但这些议题显然相互关联。

But it's worth also just noting just in terms of what Trump has applied pressure to. It's not just Germany that has been building up its military. I mean, he basically, Trump has been able to wring concessions out of NATO so that countries have all committed to spending more on defense. Right? Which they are doing not necessarily in order to defend Ukraine, but certainly these ideas are not divorced from one another.

他们增加军费或许不单为保卫乌克兰，但俄罗斯威胁超越乌克兰边境的认知正渗入欧洲心理。这点在波罗的海国家尤为明显——这些与俄罗斯西境接壤的国家已开始备战，甚至部署反坦克障碍和龙牙桩。

They're maybe not doing it necessarily to defend Ukraine, but I think the idea of a threat from Russia that goes beyond Ukraine is starting to seep into the European psyche. Mhmm. You definitely see this. And when you go to the Baltics these days, these are the countries that are on Russia's western border. They're preparing for war down to laying tank traps and dragon's teeth.

这些国家集体退出了《禁止人员杀伤地雷公约》，全面进入战备状态。这种心态正逐渐西扩——英国近期安全报告提及俄罗斯威胁，连长期将俄罗斯视为伙伴的德国（即便在2022年侵乌事件后仍态度犹豫）也开始转变立场。

And you see all of them having jettisoned a treaty banning anti personnel landmines. These countries are preparing for war, and that mentality has started to go further west. Mhmm. You see this in Britain's recent security statement talking about the threats emanating from Russia. You even see it in Germany, which for so long, even after the invasion of Ukraine in 2022, has been hesitant to see and view Russia as an enemy.

他们扩军并非出于理论威胁，而是针对俄罗斯未来可能构成的切实威胁。

You see them building up their military, not with theoretical threats in mind, but with the specific threat that Russia poses for the future.

虽然为时尚早，但关于周一会谈的实质成果，我们目前了解多少？停火、领土移交、安全保障这些关键议题似乎都未解决，但有无取得些许进展？

I know that it's early. But at this point, what do we know about what will actually come out of this series of meetings that we are talking about that happened on Monday? Like, were any of these sticking points that we're talking about, the ceasefire, the land transfer, security guarantees, it doesn't sound like any of them were solved, but did they inch any closer to resolving them?

我认为泽连斯基今日赴华盛顿实则危机四伏。特朗普直到周日还在Truth Social发文称，只要泽连斯基总统愿意，他几乎可以立即结束与俄罗斯的战争——前提是同意割让整个顿巴斯地区。

I think Zelensky came to Washington today in a significant amount of danger. You had Trump writing as late as Sunday on Truth Social that president Zelensky y could end the war with Russia almost immediately if he wanted to. And that was contingent upon him agreeing to this land concession giving up the totality of the Donbas.

这根本不可能实现。

Which is basically a nonstarter.

确实。但在本次会晤中，泽连斯基似乎暂时化解了这个敏感议题可能引发的争议。他采用了与特朗普谈判者的经验之谈——找到共同点予以认同。特朗普极力推动泽连斯基、普京与他本人的三方快速会谈，而泽连斯基的应对策略获得了特朗普的暂时支持。

Right. But in this meeting, it seems like Zelensky, for the time being, sort of neutralized any of the static that discussion of that question would create. And he did that by doing what people who have negotiated with Trump have learned to do, just to find something to agree with him on. And Trump is keen on what he's describing as a trilateral meeting between Zelensky, Putin, and himself that he wants to get done very, very quickly. And so what Zelensky did and what Trump seems to have backed him on is say, look.

我们将讨论这些领土问题，但仅限于与弗拉基米尔·普京面对面的对话中。需要指出的是，尽管泽连斯基表示愿意进行这样的面对面会谈，特朗普也表示非常希望促成这一会面，但克里姆林宫对此基本保持沉默，目前尚不清楚普京是否会同意与泽连斯基总统坐下来会谈。

We'll discuss these territorial issues, but only in a face to face conversation with Vladimir Putin. And it should be pointed out that while Zelenskyy says he's willing to to have that face to face conversation, and Trump says that he would really like that face to face conversation to happen, the Kremlin has been largely silent on this, and it's not clear whether Putin would ever at this point sit down and have a meeting with president Zelensky.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你知道，我认为我们从特朗普与普京、特朗普与泽连斯基以及这些欧洲领导人的两次峰会中了解到的是，这些会谈让各方有机会表达他们的不满。它们让各方提出了继续对话的条件。但没有人同意甚至提出任何可能的让步。因此，这最终看起来就像是泽连斯基和普京之间的乒乓球比赛，而特朗普就是那个球。

You know, what I think we've learned from these two summits between Trump and Putin and Trump Zelenskyy and these European leaders is that these talks allowed all sides to air their grievances. They allowed all sides to raise the conditions under which they would continue talking. But nobody agreed or even aired any idea of what their concessions might be. And so really, what this ends up looking like is just sort of a game of ping pong between Zelensky and Putin, and Trump is the ball.

而泽连斯基基本上已经把球打回了普京的场地。

And Zelensky has basically knocked the ball back into Putin's court.

是的。我真的相信。我认识他很久了。我们一直保持着良好的关系。我认为普京总统希望找到一个解决方案。

Yeah. I really do believe. I've known him for a long time. I've always had a great relationship with him. I think that president Putin wants to find an answer to.

我们拭目以待。在不久的将来，一周或两周内，我们就会知道是否能解决这个问题，或者……

And we'll see. And at a in a certain period of time, not very far from now, a week or two weeks, we're gonna know whether or not we're gonna solve this or

现在轮到普京回应与泽连斯基面对面会晤的想法了。

Now it's up for Putin to respond to this idea of a face to face meeting with Zelensky.

对媒体。非常感谢大家。我们非常感激。非常感谢。

To the media. Thank you all very much. We appreciate it. Thank you very much.

在所有这些中，我必须说，今天的会议，这次可能的三方会议，我们所讨论的一切都基于一个假设，即弗拉基米尔·普京实际上想要达成协议。但我们在节目中说过，也在《纽约时报》上多次报道过，普京似乎根本不想达成协议。对吧？他想要的是乌克兰。所以我想知道，过去几天发生的这一切，是否让你觉得，这几乎像是一场表演。

In all of this, I should say, this meeting today, this possible trilateral meeting, everything we've discussed assumes that Vladimir Putin actually wants a deal. But we've said on this show, and we've reported in the times many, many times over and over again, it does not seem like Putin wants a deal at all. Right? He wants Ukraine. And so I wonder whether all of this that has happened in the last few days, whether it strikes you, I don't know, as a kind of theater almost.

我认为表演是特朗普总统喜欢的，也是特朗普总统理解的。我不知道在私下谈话中他是否更关心事情的实质，但在公开场合，他似乎更注重排场和形式，更热衷于发布命令并确保其执行，而不是深入谈判的细节，解决目前这个几乎无解的冲突。我认为弗拉基米尔·普京和弗拉基米尔·泽连斯基都明白这一点，也了解特朗普的这一特点，并试图利用这一点为自己争取尽可能多的优势。但这最终意味着战争看不到尽头，他们真正在进行的是关于如何管理特朗普的对话，而不是如何结束这场战争。

I think theater is what president Trump likes, and theater is what president Trump understands. I don't know if in private conversations he's more interested in the substance of what is going on, but in his public appearances, it seems that he is more interested in the pomp and the circumstance and in making decrees and having them fulfilled than in getting down into the nitty gritty of negotiating what is, at this point, an absolutely intractable conflict. And I think that both Vladimir Putin and Volodymyr Zelensky understand this and have come to learn this about Trump and are trying to use that to get whatever advantage that they can. But what this ultimately means is that there's no end to the war in sight, and what they're really having is conversations about how to manage Trump, and they're not having conversations about how to end this war.

迈克尔·施瓦茨，非常感谢你。

Michael Schwartz, thank you so much.

我真的很感激。非常感谢。

I really appreciate it. Thank you very much.

我们稍后回来。以下是今天你还需要了解的其他消息。据三位知情人士透露，特朗普政府曾讨论收购英特尔10%的股份，以帮助这家陷入困境的美国芯片制造商渡过难关，并加强国内半导体制造。正在考虑的一个方案是将近期108.6亿美元的联邦拨款转换为英特尔的股权，该公司市值约1000亿美元。该提案将成为自2008年金融危机后汽车行业救助以来，美国政府对企业最大规模的纾困之一。

We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know today. The Trump administration has discussed taking a 10% stake in Intel to help shore up the troubled US chipmaker and bolster domestic semiconductor manufacturing, according to three people familiar with the talks. One idea being considered is to convert $10,860,000,000 in recent federal grants into equity in Intel, which is worth about a $100,000,000,000. The proposal would be one of the largest government bailouts in a US company since the rescue of the auto industry after the two thousand eight financial crisis.

右翼有线电视频道Newsmax已同意支付6700万美元，以和解与Dominion投票系统的诉讼。Newsmax曾错误指控Dominion在2020年总统选举中操纵选票。和解协议并未要求Newsmax道歉或撤回报道。该公司在周一的一份声明中表示，坚持认为其报道是'公平、平衡且符合新闻专业标准'的。本期节目由迈克尔·西蒙·约翰逊和斯特拉·谭制作，布伦丹·克林肯伯格和迈克·贝努瓦编辑，克里斯·伍德负责技术制作。

And the right wing cable channel Newsmax has agreed to pay $67,000,000 to settle a lawsuit against Dominion Voting Systems, which Newsmax had falsely accused of rigging votes in the twenty twenty presidential election. The settlement did not require Newsmax to issue an apology or a retraction. And the company said in a statement on Monday that it stood by its coverage as, quote, fair, balanced, and conducted within professional standards of journalism. Today's episode was produced by Michael Simon Johnson and Stella Tan. It was edited by Brendan Klinkenberg and Mike Benoit and was engineered by Chris Wood.

以上就是今天的《每日新闻》。我是瑞秋·艾布拉姆斯。明天见。

That's it for The Daily. I'm Rachel Abrams. See you tomorrow.