Would It Really Be Different? | How Do I Know If Ego Is Winning?

欢迎收听《每日斯多葛》播客，本节目旨在帮助你将斯多葛的四大美德——勇气、自律、正义与智慧——真正融入现实生活。

Welcome to The Daily Stoic Podcast designed to help bring those four key Stoic virtues, courage, discipline, justice, and wisdom into the real world.

情况真的会不一样吗？

Would it really be different?

如果你处在他们的位置，拥有他们的权力，决策权在你手上，你一定会做得对。

If you were in their position, if you had their power, if the decision fell to you, you'd do it right.

你不会这么懦弱。

You would not be such a coward.

你不会这么软弱。

You would not be so weak.

你不会被冲动牵着走。

You would not be driven to excess.

你不会那么自私。

You would not be selfish.

你一定会做得对。

You would do it right.

坐在外面看，这些想法当然容易。

Sitting on the outside, this is all easy to think.

但就像那首《满足的心》里的歌词说的那样。

But as the lyrics to the song A Satisfied Mind go.

要是我有钱了，我就能按自己的方式来。

If I had money, will do things my way.

问题是，我们都知道事情实际会怎么发展。

The problem is that we know how it actually goes.

权力会让人腐化。

Power corrupts.

财富会让人觉得自己高人一等。

Wealth entitles.

成功会让人分心。

Success distracts.

人们总能找到借口。

People make excuses.

人们总是重蹈覆辙，这些陷阱从塞内加和马可·奥勒留的时代就存在了，一直延续至今。

People fall prey to the same traps, the ones that have existed since the days of Seneca and Marcus Aurelius, and indeed for all time.

我们必须明白，正如伟大的田纳西·威廉斯所说，成功其实是一种灾难。

We must understand that success, as the great Tennessee Williams put it, is a kind of catastrophe.

它值得我们保持警惕，因为它会彻底打乱你的方向感。

It's something to be looked at suspiciously, something that will screw up your compass.

斯多葛学派认为，我们必须修炼德行，为逆境做好准备。

The Stoics believe that we had to train in virtue to prepare for adversity.

没错。

Sure.

但同样也要为顺境做准备，因为正是在如愿以偿的时候，我们最容易迷失，也最经受考验。

But also for the fortunate situations in which we get our way, because this is precisely when we are most tempted and most under strain.

一瞬间，那些曾经坚持的理想，都变得代价高昂。

All of a sudden, those ideals have a big price tag attached.

一瞬间，约束我们的东西也少了许多。

All of a sudden, there are fewer constraints upon us.

就像在逆境中一样，这些时刻也会考验我们平时的修炼。

And just like in adversity, we will find in these moments that our training is being put to the test.

我们真的说过那些话吗？

Did we really mean what we said?

这些价值观对我们来说真的重要吗？

Are these values really important to us?

我们有没有像马可·奥勒留那样的定力，在没人要求我们善良的时候，依然选择善良？

Do we have the strength that Marcus Aurelius did, for instance, to remain good when we don't actually have to be?

我们能保持不同，还是会像那首歌里说的，成为那十分之九只会说不会做的普通人？

Can we be different, or will we, as the song goes, be one of the nine out of 10 who show themselves to have been all talk?

顺便说一句，我们在课程《富足的斯多葛》里也讨论过这个话题——不管赚多少钱，到底该怎么才算真正富有。

By the way, that's something we talk about in our course, The Wealthy Stoic, like, how to actually be wealthy, however much money you happen to make.

斯多葛派对有钱怎么看？该怎么花？

Like, what are the Stoics think about having money, How to spend it?

又该怎么看待它？

How to think about it?

有哪些习惯和做法能帮你做到这一点呢？

What are some of the habits and practices to help you get it to?

我觉得这门课很棒，虽然有些不认同我们Daily Stoic做法的人可能没完全理解它，但我相信你会喜欢的。

I think it's a great course, not always totally understood by some of the people who don't like what we do here at Daily Stoic, but I think you'll like it.

另外，如果你是Daily Stoic Life的会员，这门课是免费的。

And by the way, if you're a Daily Stoic Life member, you get it for free.

详情请访问dailystoiclife.com，或者去dailystoic.com/wealthy了解《富足的斯多葛》课程，我也会在今天的节目笔记里附上链接。

So dailystoiclife.com for that, or you can check out The Wealthy Stoic at dailystoic.com/wealthy, and I'll link to it in today's show notes.

嗨。

Hey.

我是瑞安。

It's Ryan.

我现在正在全国各地巡回演讲。

I'm on the road right now doing talks all over the country.

我特别喜欢旅行。

I love traveling.

我特别喜欢去新的地方。

I love going to new places.

不过我不喜欢的是，没法睡在家里的床上，我不仅因为那是家才喜欢，更因为我的床上有个Eight Sleep床垫。

The thing I don't like about it though is I don't get to sleep in my bed at home, which I like not just because it's home, but because I have an eight sleep on my bed.

我用这个Eight Sleep床垫，都快五年了。

I've had an eight sleep on my bed, I don't know, five years.

我真的很喜欢它。

My I love it.

我老婆也特别喜欢。

My wife loves it.

我们俩都喜欢，因为它能给床垫降温。

We love it because it cools the mattress.

它还能给床垫加热。

It heats the mattress.

两边还能分别设置不同的温度。

You can have different sides cool at different temperatures.

连我早上醒来的方式都变了。

It's even how I wake up in the morning.

不用烦人的闹钟，或者手机里那种刺耳的声音，它会轻轻震动把你叫醒。

Instead of an annoying alarm clock or that, you know, horrible sound on your phone, it lightly buzzes you awake.

等你醒了，想关掉的话，轻轻拍一下床垫就行。

And then and then when you're up, you wanna turn it off, just tap the mattress.

我的Eight Sleep上有好多超棒的功能。

There's all sorts of awesome features in my Eight Sleep.

这钱花得真值。

It was worth every penny.

我想说的是，我特别喜欢我的Eight Sleep，而且它还在不断改进。

The point is I love my Eight Sleep, and the Eight Sleep keeps getting better.

使用Eight Sleep的用户表示，睡眠质量提升了高达32%，深度睡眠也增加了34%。

Eight Sleep users report up to 32% better sleep and up to 34% better deep sleep.

这些好处，你一定会喜欢。

This is all stuff you love.

现在去 8sleep.com/dailystoic，输入代码 Daily Stoic，最高可省 500 美元。

You can use the code Daily Stoic at 8sleep.com/dailystoic right now for up to $500 off.

而且这个七月四日的促销活动到七月十二日就结束了，别拖了。

And this July 4 sale ends on July 12, so don't wait.

如果你有健康储蓄账户或灵活支出账户，通过 True Med 有些 Eight Sleep 产品也能报销，符合条件的用户平均能省大约三成。

And if you have an HSA or an FSA, some Eight Sleep stuff qualifies for that as well through True Med, and qualified customers save about 30% on average.

购买前，去 truemed.com/8sleep 查看你是否符合资格。

Check your eligibility at truemed.com/8sleep before you buy.

True Med 仅限符合条件的用户使用。

True Med is for qualified customers.

健康储蓄账户和灵活支出账户的税务优惠因人而异。

HSA and FSA tax savings may vary.

前几天在 Daily Stoic 的员工会议上，我问了问大家有没有用过这类产品。

I was asking some people at the staff meeting for Daily Stoic the other day if if anyone uses whatnot.

结果我发现我完全落伍了，不仅好几个人在用，还都说特别好。

And apparently, I'm way out of the loop because not only did a bunch of them use it, they raved about it.

当你打开这个应用时，你就能明白它的魅力了。

And and look, when you check out the app, you sort of get it.

说实话，这真的让人特别兴奋。

It's it's it's really exciting, honestly.

你能看到所有销售在实时发生，还能看到卖家的脸——这跟通常的网购完全不一样。

You're seeing all these sales happen in real time, and and you see the, like, the face of the person who's selling it, which is, of course, not really what online shopping typically is.

如果你还不知道Whatnot是什么，它是目前最大的专属直播购物平台。

If you don't know what Whatnot is, it is the largest dedicated live shopping platform.

美妆、收藏品、电子产品、奢侈品、时尚单品，甚至饼干，都能在上面买到。

Beauty, collectibles, electronics, luxury, fashion, even cookies.

平台上有人在卖货，而且真的把生意做起来了。

And there are people there selling stuff, building real thriving businesses.

任何人都能在Whatnot上开店，不管你的生意规模是大是小，甚至还没开始也没关系。

And anyone can start selling on Whatnot, whether your business is very big, very small, whether it doesn't even exist yet.

在Whatnot上卖货的人，销量通常是其他主流平台的十倍，因为你不只是上架商品，更是在和买家建立真实的连接。

People selling on Whatnot sell 10 times more than other major marketplaces because you're not just listing products, you're building a real connection with your buyer.

今天就去试试吧。

Check it out today.

你直接去App Store搜索Whatnot。

You just go to Whatnot in the App Store.

搜索w h a t n o t，也就是Whatnot，下载应用，马上就能开始卖货了。

That's w h a t n o t w h a t n o t, Whatnot in the App Store, download it, and you can start selling right away.

嘿，我是瑞安。

Hey, it's Ryan.

欢迎收听《每日斯多葛》播客的又一期节目。

Welcome to another episode of The Daily Stoic Podcast.

这段巡讲一直没停过，现在也开始琢磨秋天的事了。

Been chugging away on this tour and starting to think about the fall.

我打算去澳大利亚和新西兰。

I'm going to be in Australia, New Zealand.

我还会去华盛顿特区和波士顿，我想是这样。

I'm going be in DC, Boston, I think.

不过要去的地方挺多的。

But bunch of place.

总之，这事儿挺让人意外的。

Anyways, it's far out.

离现在还远着呢。

It's forever from now.

一方面，我其实没怎么想这事儿。

So on the one hand, I'm not thinking about it.

但另一方面，我又在想，因为他们要我在这些地方做些采访，跟大家介绍这件事。

On the other hand, I'm thinking about it because they're having me do some, like, interviews in these different markets, right, to to tell people about it.

前几天晚上，我就刚做了一个采访。

So, like, I just had to do this this interview in the evening the other day.

我一般都喜欢把事情安排在白天做，但他们说不行，时差差别太大了。

Usually, I like to do all my stuff earlier in the day, but they were like, no, no, it's a big time zone difference.

我就问，有多大差别？

And I was like, how big?

他们说，是新西兰时区。

And they were like, New Zealand time zone.

差得可多了。

Very big.

那其实是个电台节目，叫《马特·希思和泰勒下午秀》。

It was actually a show, a radio show called Matt Heath and Tyler afternoons.

在新西兰的新stalk ZB电台播出的。

It was on Newstalk ZB in New Zealand.

我们聊了聊一些斯多葛哲学的主题，挺愉快的。

And we had a nice little chat about some Stoic themes.

今天我想跟大家分享那段对话的片段。

And I wanted to bring you a chunk of that for today's episode.

如果你想来看我演出，我之前说过，八月在明尼阿波利斯和芝加哥都有场次。

If you want to come see me, you can, as I said, bunch of dates, Minneapolis in August, Chicago in August.

我们刚加了十一月在纳什维尔的场次，挺让人期待的。

We just added Nashville in November, so that'll be fun.

所有这些信息都在 Daily Stoic Live 网站上。

All that stuff is at Daily Stoic Live.

如果你想去新西兰看我，10月13号那天也可以来。

And if you want to come see me in New Zealand on October 13, you can do that.

我刚知道，我到那会儿，诺亚·可汗也会在那儿。

I found out Noah Khan is gonna be there while I'm there.

所以我们正打算买票去听。

So we're grabbing tickets to that.

我挺期待的。

So I'm excited.

你也可以去听那场节目。

So you can see that show also.

总之，网址是 dailystoiclive.com。

Anyways, dailystoiclive.com.

感谢 Matt Heath 和 Tyler Adams 邀请我上节目，希望你们也能从中有所收获。

Thanks to Matt Heath and Tyler Adams for having me on the show, and, hopefully, you'll get something out of it too.

这是Newstalk ZB，畅销书作者，也是现代斯多葛哲学最具影响力的声音之一。

Newstalk ZB, best selling author and one of the most influential voices of modern stoicism.

瑞安·霍利迪即将来到新西兰，在奥克兰的布鲁斯·梅森体育馆举办一场专场活动。

Ryan Holiday is coming to New Zealand for a one night event at Auckland's Bruce Mason Arena.

活动时间是10月13日。

It's happening on October 13.

这场名为‘与瑞安·霍利迪共度夜晚’的活动，将探讨古希腊哲学如何帮助我们应对现代生活中的压力、挫折与不确定性。

An evening with Ryan Holiday, it will explore how the ancient philosophy can help navigate pressure, setbacks, and uncertainty in the modern world.

门票现已开售。

Tickets are on sale now.

请前往ticketmaster.co.nz购买。

Go to ticketmaster.co.nzed.

现在我们有请瑞安·霍利迪加入我们。

And Ryan Holiday joins us now.

下午好，瑞安。

A very good afternoon, Ryan.

是的。

Yeah.

你也是。

You too.

那我们先来问一个很直接的问题。

Now we'll start off with with an obvious question.

你认为为什么斯多葛哲学在现代社会和古代一样有效？

What what why do you think Stoicism as a philosophy for life works as well in the modern world as it did in the ancient world?

说实话，现代社会和古代其实也没多大区别。

Well, you know, unfortunately, the modern world's not that different than the ancient world.

你知道的。

You know?

世界总是充满不确定性。

It's uncertain.

世界总是乱糟糟的。

It's crazy.

现在的各种制度看起来都在崩塌。

Institutions feel like they're falling apart.

你知道的。

You know?

疫情、瘟疫、腐败、瘫痪、专制——我们今天担心的这些事，古人也担心，而且更严重。

You've got pandemics and plagues, corruption, dysfunction, tyranny, you know, all the things that we worry about today, they worried about in the ancient world, but only more so.

他们还担心，手指上一个小伤口感染就会丧命，或者孩子活不过婴儿期。

They also worried about dying from an infected cut on your finger, right, or your baby not surviving infancy.

所以古人讨论的是：面对这么多无法掌控的事情，我们该怎么办？

And so what they were talking about in the ancient world, how do we deal with the fact that so much of what happens is outside of our control?

我们应该用什么样的准则来指导自己的行为，帮助我们应对这些超出控制的局面？

What kind of framework should guide our behavior, should should should help us navigate how to respond to these things outside of our control?

这正是古时候哲学，尤其是斯多葛哲学的真正意义。

That's what philosophy was, or at least Stoicism as a philosophy was in the ancient world.

而今天，我们往往觉得哲学是空洞、抽象，甚至不切实际的。

I think today, we tend to think of philosophy as theoretical and abstract, even impractical.

但对爱比克泰德和马可·奥勒留来说，一个是在罗马帝国当奴隶，一个是帝国的最高统治者，两人都在努力应对生活的种种细节，努力把日子过好。

But, you know, for Epictetus, who's a a slave in the Roman Empire and Marcus Aurelius, who's the head of that empire, both are trying to wrestle with the ins and outs, the everydayness of life, and trying to do it well.

我想，这就是为什么斯多葛哲学过了这么多年依然能打动人心。

And that, I think, is why Stoicism lands all these years later.

确实如此。

Yeah.

有意思的是，这两位影响力巨大的斯多葛派思想家，人生轨迹却截然不同。

That's interesting that, because those are two heavyweight influential Stoics with very, very different paths.

你有马可·奥勒留，还有你说的爱比克泰德。

You got Marcus Aurelius and Ecbertidis, as you say.

马可·奥勒留身为罗马皇帝，手握天下大权，本可以肆意残暴，但他和许多皇帝不一样，选择了服务与公正，而不是虚荣与奢靡。

Marcus Aurelius, Roman emperor who had all the power in the world, could have indulged in cruelty, but chose, as a lot of emperors did, but chose service and justice over vanity and excess.

而爱比克泰德则处在罗马社会的最底层，像你说的，是个被主人弄残的奴隶，却靠着斯多葛哲学，从极度弱势的位置上站了起来。

Or you've got Epictetus, who was at the very other end of Roman society, as you say, a slave crippled by his master who became, you know, powerful from a position of of weakness using Stoicism.

所以，在你看来，Ryan，哪一条路更让人敬佩？

So which path is more impressive or admirable in in your your eyes, Ryan?

我觉得更有趣的是，从马可·奥勒留自己的角度看，哪条路更值得敬佩。

Well, I think it's interesting to think about which path was more admirable in Marcus Aurelius' eyes.

马可·奥勒留是世上最有权力的人，但他最敬仰的哲学家、引用最多的那个人，恰恰是爱比克泰德，他一生都在以爱比克泰德为榜样生活。

Like, Marcus Aurelius is the most powerful man in the world, but the the person he's looking up to, the philosopher he quotes more than any others, the the the person he's trying to base his life on is basically Epictetus.

对吧？

Right?

你看，这个掌握天下大权的人，却望着一个几乎毫无权力的人，心里默默点头。

So here you have the most powerful man in the world looking at this effectively powerless man and going, yeah.

看看他是怎么掌控自己的。

But look how he controls himself.

看看他的气度。

Look at look at his dignity.

看看他的自尊。

Look at his self respect.

看看他的韧性。

Look at his resilience.

看看他的乐观和坚韧。

Look at his optimism and perseverance.

对马可·奥勒留来说，他觉得爱比克泰德才是真正更有力量的人。

Like and and so for Marcus Aurelius, he sees Epictetus as the more powerful figure.

我觉得斯多葛学派正是意识到这一点，我相信你也在自己的节目里采访过，或者生活中遇到过类似的人。

And I I think for the Stoics, it was it was this realization, and I'm sure you've had this too with some of the people you've been you've interviewed on the show or you've met near the course of your life.

其实，成功、出名、有钱，这些并不少见。

Actually, being successful, being famous, being rich, this is pretty common.

对吧？

Right?

你会发现，这样的人其实挺多的。

Like, you realize it's actually there's actually a lot of those people out there.

但那些不被野心、脾气或情绪所奴役的人，那些真正善良、有自我觉察的人，反而少之又少。

But those who are not slaves to their ambitions or their tempers or their emotions, those that are good people, those that have some semblance of self awareness, that's actually a much rarer thing.

所以，马可·奥勒留仰慕爱比克泰德，这其实给了我们一个

And so, you know, I think Marcus Aurelius looking up to Epictetus gives us a

就能感受到，一个人真正靠自己能有多强大。

sense of just how powerful someone under their own power truly is.

所以联系到自我膨胀这个问题，瑞安，你在这方面的书里写得很多。在当今这个似乎奖励自我宣传的世界里，你怎么判断自我膨胀正在妨碍你做出明智的决定或阻碍进步呢？

So linking that into ego, Ryan, and you've written extensively about this ego as the enemy in many other books, how do you recognize when ego is getting in the way of good decisions or progress, particularly in a world that seems to reward self promotion?

是的。

Yeah.

听我说。

Look.

我倒希望说那些自大狂永远不会成功，但显然他们也会成功。

I I'd love to say that that egotistical people never succeed, but of course they do.

对吧？

Right?

你看看周围，其实很多、很多，甚至大多数成功的人，都挺自负的。

Like, if you look around, actually, many, many, if not most people who are successful are quite egotistical.

但我觉得，任何了解他们、近距离观察过他们的人，都会明白这种自负往往会让他们的事业变得更艰难，阻碍他们实现目标，甚至在很多情况下直接导致他们的垮台。

But I think anyone that knows them or sees them up close understands how that ego often makes what they do harder, gets in the way of what they're trying to do, or in in many cases leads to their their downfall.

我从来没遇到过什么问题、状况，或者团队合不来的时候，觉得要是大家自我膨胀一点就能解决。

Like, I've never been dealing with a problem or some situation or, you know, a team that's not coming together and thought, like, bigger egos would solve this.

对吧？

Right?

恰恰相反，情况总是这样。

It's it's always the opposite.

对吧？

Right?

真正阻碍我们达成目标的，恰恰就是这个自我膨胀。

The ego is the thing that's getting between us and what we're trying to accomplish.

所以我有时候会拿这个打比方，你看很多音乐人有药物依赖或者酗酒的问题。

And so so, you know, I I sometimes liken it to how, look, a lot of musicians might have a drug problem or a drinking problem.

但那些问题根本不是激发创意的源泉。

That that isn't what's fueling the creativity.

反而是拖慢了他们的创造力。

It's actually a drag on the creativity.

他们天赋异禀，充满灵感，或者特别聪明，所以能暂时弥补这一点。

They're just so talented and, and, and inspired or brilliant that that they're able to, to compensate for it for a time.

所以只要一看到这种自大苗头，我就特别警惕。

And so I just tend to be suspicious when any of that kind of ego creeps in.

我会想，这根本帮不上我实现目标。

I go, this isn't helping me do what I'm trying to do.

相反，只会让事情变得更难。

If anything, it's gonna make it harder.

说到事情有多难，斯多葛主义的逻辑确实很难反驳。

Well, talking about how hard things can be, it's hard to argue with logic of stoicism.

但要在现实生活中真正践行，却没那么容易。

But it can be hard to implement it in real life.

举个例子，就像我以前写过的一段话：如果有人骂你，但他说的不是事实，那你完全可以当没听见，因为纯属胡扯。

Example, to paraphrase a message that I've read that you've written before, if someone insults you and what they're saying is not true, you can ignore it because it's nonsense.

如果他说的是真的，那反而该谢谢他，让你更清楚地认识了自己。

If it is true, you can thank them for the knowledge about yourself.

但在日常生活中，我们还是会因为一些小事对人生气。

But in the day to day, we still get angry with people with kind of self tuss.

你是怎么在实际生活中，让这种斯多葛式的理性真正起作用的？

How do you get that clear Stoic logic working in real time for you?

实际上，爱比克泰德说过，每当有人侮辱我们时，我们应该想：如果他们真的了解我，说的话会难听得多。

Actually, what Epictetus said we should say whenever someone insults us is if they really knew me, they would say something much worse.

所以当他们说那些话的时候，我敢肯定，我们已经算是幸运了——要是他们能看透我们内心最黑暗的想法，或者发现我们最隐秘的秘密，他们挑的靶子会更狠。

Then when they I'm sure we got off easy with whatever they what that if they if they could read our darkest thoughts or see our darkest secrets, they'd they'd have picked an even juicier target.

当然，这听起来挺幽默的。

So look, obviously, that's that's funny.

说起来容易，什么‘别往心里去’、‘别当真’，或者‘没人能让你觉得自己低人一等，除非你同意’，这些话谁都会讲。

It's easy to say, know, just shrug this off, don't take it personally, or or, you know, no one can make you feel inferior without your consent.

道理都懂。

It's all well and good.

但真要落实到行动上，实在太难了。

It it's it's just hard to put into practice.

这正是关键所在。

And and that is the point.

斯多葛主义是一种实践。

Stoicism is a practice.

所以我经常会提醒自己，比如当我在网上看到一些针对我的负面评论时，我会问：大多数人真这么想吗？

So, you know, I I try to remind myself, for instance, when I see something nasty about me on the Internet, I go, do most people feel this way?

不会。

No.

对吧？

Right?

这一个人是出了一百个人里的吗？

Is this is this one person out of a 100?

哦，那已经很不错了。

Oh, that's pretty good.

说实话，这个比例其实挺好的。

You know, that that's actually a pretty good ratio.

我本来以为，自己能触达的观众会全盘接受我发布的一切，觉得每个人都喜欢，这想法太天真了。

Like, the idea that I was gonna reach the audience that I've reached or that I would I would put anything out in the world, and it would receive a 100% endorsement and approval that it would be for everyone.

这简直就是幼稚，还特别自以为是。

I mean, that's just like naive and and and downright entitled.

所以我总会提醒自己，你看，没人能完全躲过批评。

And so I do try to remind myself that like, look, nobody nobody escapes unscathed.

总会有一部分人不喜欢你。

Like, that a certain amount of people are gonna dislike you.

总会有一部分人态度恶劣。

Certain amount of people are gonna be jerks.

总会有一部分人说话没礼貌。

Certain amount of people are gonna be rude.

总会有些话，明明可以换种方式说，但他们就是没那么做。

Certain amount of things are gonna be said that, you know, could have been said differently, but they weren't.

你得学会停下来，对自己说：嘿。

And and you just try to say to yourself, you sort of pause and you say to yourself, hey.

这很正常。

This is par for the course.

这有什么好惊讶的？

This was why is this surprising to me?

我觉得这样想，心里就没那么难受了。

And I do think that takes some of the sting out of it.