在AI时代取得成功的6个永恒特质

现在，每个能善用这些工具、做到这一点的人类员工，都比其他人有价值10倍到100倍。

Every human worker who can leverage these tools and do that is now 10 to a 100 times more valuable than than others.

而且我们在行业里也看到过同样的情形，比如说，当AWS、GCP、Azure这些大型框架出现时，突然之间，你根本招不到软件工程师，他们一毕业就能拿投资银行家的薪水，因为他们被这些超强框架赋能，能创造的价值多得多。

And we saw the same thing play out in the industry when, for example, AWS and GCP and Azure and these large frameworks emerged, all of a sudden, like, you couldn't hire software engineers, and they're starting to get paid like investment bankers fresh out of school because they had been empowered with these super powerful frameworks, they're able to create so much more value.

本期节目，我采访了Rokt的首席运营官比尔·巴顿。

In this episode, I talked to Bill Barton, COO of Rokt.

这家公司发展极快，在内部推行人工智能方面创新不断，以至于一些全球最大的科技巨头都邀请Rokt去给他们的员工讲一讲怎么做。

This is a company that is moving so fast and driving so much innovation in the way it's implemented AI inside the company that some of the world's biggest tech giants are having Rokt come in and talk to their employees about how to do it.

所以我请他们的首席运营官来上节目，让我们都能从他们的做法中学到点什么。

So I asked their COO to come on the podcast so that we can all learn from what they're doing.

我已经迫不及待想让大家听听比尔·巴顿要说什么了。

I can't wait for you to hear what Bill Barton has to say.

他是一位技术和产品领导者，之前曾帮助领导亚马逊的Alexa团队，现在在一家全球增长最快的电商公司里负责运营。

He's a technology and product leader who previously helped lead the Alexa team at Amazon and is now running operations at one of the world's fastest growing ecommerce companies.

比尔还提出了非常好的建议，关于任何人在任何岗位上要成功都需要的六项特质。

Bill also has amazing advice about the six attributes anybody needs to develop in order to become successful in any role.

好的。

All right.

这一期你肯定会喜欢。

You're going to really enjoy this one.

所以，这就是我们和Rokt的Bill Barton的对话。

So here it is, our conversation with Bill Barton of Rokt.

那么，Bill，给不太了解的人介绍一下，Rokt是做什么的？

So, Bill, for those who aren't familiar, talk a little bit about Rokt

还有，

and then

你在公司担任什么角色？

your role at the company.

好的，当然。

Yeah, sure.

Rokt已经成立大概十三年了，可能快十四年了。我们专注于帮助电商公司在所谓的交易时刻获取更多价值，这其实就是用户开始浏览电商网站的产品目录等之后发生的购买过程。

Rokt has been around for thirteen years, probably going on fourteen I think, and specializes in helping e commerce companies derive more value from what we call the transaction moment, which is really the purchase journey once the user has begun, the consumer has begun engaging with that e commerce site's product catalog and so on.

我们年复一年地快速增长。

We've been growing like a weed year after year.

今年我们将处理超过100亿笔交易。

We're going to do over 10,000,000,000 transactions this year.

我们双边网络的两边都有数万客户，对未来非常兴奋。

We have tens of thousands of clients on both sides of our two sided network and super excited about the future.

对我个人而言，我目前是首席运营官，负责公司所有非产品、非技术、非市场推广的职能，比如人事、财务、法务和企业安全。

For myself, I'm currently Chief Operating Officer, so I lead all the non product, non tech, non go to market functions in the company, so people, finance, legal, corporate security.

这个角色有点意思，因为在我漫长的职业生涯的头几十年里，我是个产品出身的人。

It's sort of a funny role because for the first few decades of my long career, I was a product guy.

我之前是亲自动手的软件工程师，带领过技术团队和产品开发团队，包括在Rokt的头几年也是，但现在我担任这个非常不同的、更偏公司管理的角色。

I was a hands on software engineer and led technical teams and product development teams, including at Rokt for the first couple of years, but now I'm in this very different, more corporate role.

很好。

Very good.

所以，Bill，就像你说的，你之前是负责产品和工程方面的。

So, Bill, you, like you said, you you were in this product role, product and kind of engineering and and that, you know, before.

但你之前离开了Rokt，最近又回来了。

But you left Rokt, and then you recently came back.

给我们讲讲这段经历吧，为什么回来，背后的故事是什么。

So tell us a little bit about that and kind of why and what the story is.

是啊，还挺有意思的。

Yeah, it's sort of funny.

我在LinkedIn上写着，我尝试过退休，但那个实验失败了。

On my LinkedIn page I say that I tried retiring and it was an experiment that failed.

大约两年前的这个时候，我决定，我年纪和阶段都差不多了，觉得自己该从全职工作中退下来，去追求生活中其他充满热情的事情，特别是公路骑行，大家都知道，要认真骑的话，每天得花很多时间。

So about two years ago at this time I decided I was just nearing an age and a stage of what I was doing where I felt like maybe it was time for me to step back from full time work, pursue other things in my life that I'm really passionate about, notably road cycling, which notoriously takes a lot of hours a day if you're going do it right.

我一直计划退休后继续做点咨询，所以和Rokt还保持了一些联系，帮忙做人才发展、面试候选人这类事情。

I always planned when I retired to keep doing some consulting, so I kept my hand in it with Rokt a little bit and I was helping with talent development, interviewing candidates and that type of thing.

但今年早些时候，我们的创始人兼CEO Bruce问我有没有兴趣回来做点完全不同的事情，也就是我提到的那些企业职能部门，我决定，是的，我非常渴望回来，成为Rokt这个美好大家庭的一员。

But then earlier this year, Bruce, our founder CEO, asked if I was interested in coming back and doing something very different, which as I said is leaving these corporate functions, and I decided that, yeah, I had a huge appetite to come back and be part of the wonderful Rokt family.

有时候人们会问，Rokt到底有什么吸引人的地方？

And sometimes people say, Well, is it that's really compelling about Rokt?

除了Rokt发展得很快之外，这里还有一种家庭般的氛围，我就是很喜欢待在这儿，很喜欢在办公室里，和这里的同事们在一起，所以我就回来了。

In addition to just how fast Rokt moves, it is the fact that it has a sort of family fabric to the place, and I just yeah, really like being here, really like being in the office and being around the other folks here, so here I am.

除夕夜的时候，我可没想过自己会重新全职工作，但现在我就在这里了。

It wasn't necessarily on my bingo card on New Year's Eve that I'd be back in a full time role, but here I am.

你是什么时候回去的？

When did you go back?

就是今年吗？

Just this year then?

是的，就像我说的，年初的时候我还在做兼职咨询，大概一半时间工作，然后到了五月中旬，差不多五六个月前，我回来了，从那以后就一直是全职。

Yeah, I was, like I said, consulting sort of part time, half time ish as we entered the new year, and then it was mid May, so getting close to six months ago, five or six months ago that I came back and have been at least full time since.

你提到这里似乎有一种注重线下办公的文化。

You said here it sounds like there is sort of an in person culture there.

这里？

Here?

总部在哪里，你又在哪个城市？

Where's the HQ and where are you located?

总部在曼哈顿下城，公司2012年在澳大利亚悉尼创立，但我觉得从2019年左右总部就一直在这边了。

Oh, HQ is, we're in Lower Manhattan, and the company was started in Sydney, Australia back in 2012, but I think the headquarters have been here since 2019 or so.

那是在我2022年首次加入之前，所以我们一直在这栋楼里，就在苏豪区和他们所说的哈德逊广场的交界处。我们非常注重在办公室办公的文化，所以这里总是人满满的，热闹非凡，我们还会提供午餐，这里充满了人的活力，这很棒。

It was before I first joined in 2022, so we've been in this building here, sort of on the border between Soho and what they call Hudson Square, and we are very much an in the office culture, so the place is always filled with people and buzzing, and we cater in lunch, and there's a ton of human energy here, which is great.

不错，不错。

Nice, nice.

现在，你提到了离开，以及决定离开这件事。

Now, you talked about leaving and sort of the decision to leave.

是什么？

What was it?

当时是什么情况？

What was it about the moment?

因为那是2025年，2024年还是25年？

Because it was and that was 2025, 2024, '25?

2024年。

2024.

差不多正好两年前。

Almost exactly two years ago.

那是2024年10月，我那时突然意识到，也许是时候结束我的职业生涯了。

Was October 2024, and I sort of had this epiphany that maybe it was time for me to be done with my career.

这个顿悟有点奇怪。

It was sort of an odd epiphany.

一部分原因是我意识到还有其他事情，比如个人爱好，就像我说的，我想花时间去做的事情，花时间骑车，花时间陪家人。但另一部分原因是，那正是人们简称为AI的那波新浪潮，其实就是生成式AI、大语言模型，我觉得大多数人都明白这里的区别，刚刚开始展现的时候。

Now part of it was just this awareness that there were other things, personal passions, like I said, things I wanted to spend time on, spend time cycling, spend time with my family, But another thing was it was really when the new wave of what people in too abbreviated fashion call AI, but is generative AI, large language models, and I think most people understand the distinction there, is just beginning to unfold.

我能感觉到，如果我想保持在产品开发领导者的顶尖水平，这将会是那种需要两三年努力攀登的高峰，要真正掌握并跟上它，虽然我不确定现在有谁能真正跟上它。我问自己，我是否有热情再这样拼一次，因为我在职业生涯中已经做过很多次了，而在那一刻，答案是，你知道吗？

I could tell it was something where if I wanted to be at the top of my game as a product development leader, it was going be one of these two, three year sort of hills to climb get really properly on top of it and keep up with it, not that I'm sure anyone can keep up with it right now, and I asked myself if I had an appetite to do that again because I've done it many times in my career, and in that moment the answer was, You know what?

我觉得是时候交给Rokt这里的年轻一代了，不一定是他们更年轻，而是他们更优秀。

I think it's time to hand off to some of the younger people who were here at Rokt, not necessarily because they were younger, but they were better.

也许这样说更合适。

Maybe that's the right way to put it.

不是交给Rokt这里更年轻的人，而是交给Rokt这里更优秀的人，他们一开始就对AI的某些技术、能力和潜力更有基础，而且他们真的做得非常出色。

Not to hand off to the younger people here at Rokt, but to hand off to the better people here at Rokt, just more schooled to begin with in some of the technologies and the capabilities and the potential for AI and they were really crushing it.

我开始觉得自己帮不上什么忙了。

I began to feel like I was not helping as much anymore.

所以各种想法聚在一起，我决定，好吧，我要退休了。

So all these different thought processes came together and I decided, okay, I'm going to retire.

然后我也就这么做了，离开了公司。

So I did that and I left the business.

大概有六个月左右，我完全离开了业务。

I was completely out of the business for six months or so.

没有邮件，没有聊天，完全不碰Rokt。

No email, no chat, no Rokt at all.

但后来我又被卷了回来，从2025年底开始做顾问，现在我又完全陷进去了。

But then I sort of got sucked back into the vortex as a consultant starting at the end of twenty twenty five, and once again here I am fully in the vortex.

所以你是故意退到一旁，让其他人来主导一些技术和产品方面的事情，但你又因为别的事情被拉了回来。

So you purposefully chose to step aside to let others sort of take the lead on some of the, like, technical product parts of of Rokt, but you got pulled back in to do some of these other things.

之后就是一段很有意思的经历。

And then there's been quite an interesting journey.

我们之前也聊过一点这个。

You know, you and I talked a little bit before about it.

那你就讲讲你决定回来的原因吧，不只是因为想重新加入团队、认同文化。

So talk a little bit about the decision making to kind of come back in beyond just sort of being part of the team again and, you know, believing in the culture.

你还觉得有一些机会，有些事情在变化，你能在那里帮上忙。

You also had the sense that there were some opportunities, there were some things changing and that you could help there.

那具体是什么样的？

So what did that look like?

嗯，我觉得有一部分是被邀请回来的，去负责一些跟我之前职业生涯里领导的不太一样的职能部门，但那些部门是我职业生涯中一直有合作的。

Well, I think so part of it was being asked to come back and leave these very different functions than I had led in my career, but where I've partnered with them in my career.

我一直以来都跟人事、HR、财务、法务、安全这些合作伙伴打交道。

I've for a long time, partnered with people or HR organization, finance partners, legal partners, security partners.

虽然我在这些领域不是专家，但它们确实是领导大型开发组织的重要组成部分，而我已经做了这行二十年了。

While I wasn't individually expert in any of those disciplines, certainly they were part and parcel of leading large development organizations, which I've done for a couple of decades now.

我觉得我对这些领域足够了解，可以把我作为通才型领导者的经验带过去。

I felt confident that I knew enough about them that I could then bring the experience I had as a generalist leader.

这是其中的一部分原因。

So that was part of it.

而有趣的是，我想对我们任何人来说都是这样。

Problem are And just interesting, I think, for any of us.

就是说，嘿，你拿到的是新的脑力糖果，而不是旧的脑力糖果。

It's like, hey, you get the new brain candy, not the old brain candy.

然后我觉得，AI工具的使用让任何人都有可能成为专家，不一定要完全专业。

Then I felt that the use of AI tools was allowing anyone to become not necessarily expert.

如果你想从事法律工作，你仍然需要法律学位等等。

If you're going to practice law, you still need a law degree and so on.

在这些不同的领域，你确实需要培训和专业知识，但AI开始真正模糊不同学科之间的界限，软件工程师可能能够达到理解他们可能在做的事情（比如数据隐私、数据保管方面）背后的法律问题的80%。

In these different disciplines, you definitely need the training, the expertise, but AI is beginning to really blur the lines between different disciplines, and people who are software engineers can maybe get to 80% of the way to understanding the legal issues behind something they might be doing, say, in the area of data privacy, data custodianship.

人们可以理解财务问题，所以对我来说，这些界限正在模糊，人们可以变得更通才，这真的很有趣。

People can understand finance issues, and so it was just really interesting to me how these boundaries were blurring and people could become more generalists.

我觉得自己也是随着时间推移成了一个通才。

I thought of myself as having become a generalist over time.

最早的时候，我是个动手写代码的软件工程师，那还是在古早时代，我写汇编语言之类的代码。

First I was a hands on software engineer way back in the dark ages, and I was writing assembly code and that kind of thing.

即使在软件领域内，人们也越来越往通才方向发展，前端工程师和后端工程师之间的界限随着工具变好而逐渐模糊，现在这种情况正在公司各个部门发生。

And even within software, people became more and more generalist, and the distinction between a front end engineer and a back end engineer and so on began to erode as the tools got better, and now that's happening across all the disciplines in the company.

实际上，我刚加入Rokt的时候，我们大概有15种不同的所谓职业阶梯。

In fact, when I started at Rokt, we must have had 15 different what we call job ladders.

有软件工程师、数据工程师、产品经理、项目经理。

There was software engineer and data engineer and product manager and program manager.

这些加起来真的超过十二个，现在我们就剩四个了。

There are literally over a dozen of these, and now we're down to just four.

哇。

Wow.

我觉得这其中的一部分原因是这些工具的力量，让人们能够超越那些旧的界限，开始做任何他们需要做的事情来完成自己的角色。

I think part of that is the power of these tools to let people go beyond those old boundaries and begin to do almost anything they need to do to deliver on the role.

所以领导这些公司职能部门变得特别有趣，因为不再是那种“哦，好玩的技术活儿都在那边”的感觉了。

So it makes it really fun to lead these corporate functions when it's not like, oh, fun technical stuff happens over there.

那可不是你的事。

That's not for you.

你或者在法务部，或者在财务部。

You're in legal or you're in finance.

现在大家都能一起合作了。

And everyone is sort of playing together.

这真的很有意思。

It's really interesting.

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现在回到节目。

And now back to the show.

比尔，让我着迷的是，Rokt选择了一位曾在产品和技术部门工作过的人来负责这些中央服务，对吧？

So this is kind of what fascinated me, Bill, is like that Rokt chose somebody who had worked in the product and engineering, you know, part of the org to come and run these like central services, right?

大多数公司都是这样的。

That most organizations have.

你往往会找一个非常注重运营、非常讲究效率的人来做这个。

You tend to hire somebody that's very operational, is very into efficiency, you know, in that.

但他们却从公司的核心部门里挑人来负责这些部分，这确实能说明这家公司的文化和思维方式。

But it really does say something about the culture and the mindset of the company that they brought somebody who was in, you know, those kind of core functions of the company to come and run, you know, these parts.

还有一件事也让我特别感兴趣，当然，我……

And what what other thing that really fascinated me, of course, I...

我和Rokt的首席AI官克莱尔·萨迪聊过。

I've talked to Claire Suddy, who's the chief AI officer of Rokt.

克莱尔刚刚参加了我主持的一个AI会议的小组讨论。

Claire was just on a panel that I did at the AI conference.

克莱尔非常明确地谈到了Rokt如何利用AI真正改变产品的整个流程，打造一个既能取悦用户又不惹人烦的产品，并通过数据找到那个平衡点。

And Claire talked, you know, really, purposefully about how Rokt is using AI to really transform the journey, you know, of the of the product, to build this product that, walks that fine line between delighting users and and annoying them, you know, and using data to to find that place.

很少有人跟我这么说过。

And not many people have told me that.

所以我请克莱尔来参加那个小组讨论。

That's why I asked Claire to sort of come and and be part of that panel.

但是跟你聊下来，感觉你是从另一个角度看AI的，就是它也在改变Rokt的内部文化。

But in talking to you, sort of you look at AI through the other direction of, like, it's also transforming the internal culture of Rokt.

我很想听你多聊聊这个，因为这也是很多组织，不管他们做什么，都在思考的问题——员工在考虑，雇主在考虑，更广泛的组织也在考虑如何为未来构建他们的组织架构。

And so I'd love to hear you talk a little bit more about that because that's also, you know, what a lot of organizations, matter what they do, right, are thinking about dealing with employees are thinking about it, employers are thinking about it, organizations more broadly in terms of how they architect their organizations for the future.

而你现在正亲身经历并实践着这一切。

And so you are living and breathing that right now.

那你能不能聊聊这方面？

So can you talk a little bit about that?

你们在内部使用AI方面都学到了些什么？

What have you all been learning about the ways that AI can be used internally?

我想克莱尔谈到了我们在产品本身中使用AI的程度。

I imagine Claire spoke about the extent to which we're using AI just within the product itself.

Rokt的使命是在消费者浏览电商结账流程时，向他们展示相关的内容和优惠，自然，长期以来，AI和机器学习技术一直被用于这种内容推荐引擎中。

Rokt's mission is to put relevant content and offers in front of consumers as they're navigating an e commerce checkout journey, and naturally AI and machine learning techniques for a long time have been used in that sort of content recommendation engine.

现在我们正在构建，而且……

And now we're building And

对不了解的观众来说，你们拥有全球一些最大的客户。

it's very, for those who don't know in the audience too, like you all have some of the largest clients in the world.

我记得有个数据是，每个消费者可能没意识到，但他们在交易阶段大约每两三天就会被Rokt触及一次。在过去的几天里，几乎每个美国消费者都被触及过，因为你们有这些大客户。

I think the stat was like every consumer is, you know, they don't realize it, but they're being touched by, you know, a rock, you know, rocked in the transaction phase, you know, every sort of two to three days, you know, in the last two to three days, almost every consumer in The United States has been, touched by it because you have these giant clients.

这真的很了不起。

It's pretty amazing.

所以正如我所说，我们今年将处理超过100亿笔交易，这大约是亚马逊交易量的两倍。

So as I said, we'll do over 10,000,000,000 transactions this year, which is on the order of twice the number of transactions Amazon will do, for example.

也提醒我一些客户的名字，比如Uber和其他一些。

Remind me some of the clients too, right, like Uber and some of the others.

Uber、Ticketmaster、Kohl's，大家都知道。

Uber, Ticketmaster, Kohl's, Everybody knows.

随便挑一家全球顶尖的电商公司，他们很可能就在我们的网络上，无论是作为一方还是双方。

Pick the name of a top e commerce company in the world, and there's a really good chance that they're on our network on one or both sides.

这些客户中，有些是供应侧的合作伙伴，也就是说，我们帮他们在结账交易流程中实现盈利，同时他们也站在需求侧，在自己的网站上，有时也在别人的网站上，向消费者展示优惠和内容。

Some of these clients are both a supply side partner, meaning we're helping them monetize their checkout transaction journey, but they're also on the demand side putting offers and content in front of consumers, either on their own site and sometimes other people's sites.

所以数据量非常庞大。

So huge amount of data.

我们拥有很好的数据基础，可以利用最新的深度学习和人工智能技术，让我们的网络为所有参与者带来更好的表现。

We have a great set of data to leverage the very latest in deep learning techniques and AI to make our network perform better for all the stakeholders of the network.

就像我说的，我想你和克莱尔已经就这个话题聊了不少。

Like I said, I imagine you spoke with Claire about that at some length.

对。

Yes.

再往前看，在软件开发这块，据我所知，我们绝对走在了最前沿，使用自主的人工智能驱动的软件开发代理来实际构建我们的软件。现在软件工程师就像交响乐团的指挥，指挥着这些自主AI代理，而我们内部称之为“AI舰队”的系统，正在学习我们的优化函数，掌握我们代码的所有规则，并理解我们的代码库。

Moving upstream of that, on the software development side, as far as I can tell, are absolutely at the bleeding edge of using autonomous AI powered software development agents to actually build our software, And software engineers now are, they're like conductors of the symphony orchestra of autonomous AI agents, and our internal AI fleet, as we call it, is learning about our optimization functions and learning all the rules about our code and understanding our code base.

现在我们几小时就能完成的事情，以前可能需要一整个软件工程师团队花费几周甚至几个月的时间。

We're doing things in a matter of hours now that would have taken a team of software engineers weeks or months to do.

这在整个行业里正在发生。

That's playing out across the industry.

现在，我们再往上游看看，那些软件开发人员其实对AI有很好的理解，并且已经在利用它来构建软件了。

Now move upstream from software developers who have a pretty good understanding of the AI, are leveraging it to build software.

整个公司，不管是法务、财务、安全、市场还是其他任何部门，现在都深深依赖并使用AI工具来完成工作，包括我们主要针对软件问题开发的内部AI集群。

Across the organization, whether it's legal, finance, security, marketing, you name it, every function of the company is now steeped in and using AI tools to do the work, including this internal AI fleet that we've developed primarily pointed at our software problems.

嗯，你可以用它去研究237个不同司法管辖区的税法。

Well, you can use it to go study the tax code in two thirty seven different jurisdictions.

你可以在上面做市场调研，而且公司在这方面非常有意为之。

You can do market research on it, and the company was very intentional about this.

我记得那是在2025年初我即将离开公司的时候，我们的CEO Bruce Buchanan和其他人真正意识到了即将到来的趋势。

So I recall it was really as I was just stepping out of the business in early twenty twenty five, and our CEO Bruce Buchanan and others really became aware of what was coming.

我们有意识地把整个公司，几百名员工，带入了AI时代。

And we were very intentional about leading the entire company, hundreds of employees, into the AI era.

所以我们开展了在线培训。

So we had online training.

我们还举办竞赛和黑客松，而且不只是针对软件工程师。

We would run competitions and hackathons, and it wasn't just for software engineers.

这涵盖了公司里的每一个岗位，大家分享想法，也分享问题。

It was for every single role in the company and people sharing ideas and sharing questions.

最让我惊讶的是，有些岗位你根本想不到会跟技术沾边，可他们却在聊天群里求助，怎么配置N8N和API密钥，好让三四个不同的公司工具能协同工作，因为他们想做一个帮员工订午餐之类的小应用。

And it was amazing when I saw people who were in roles that you would think were totally nontechnical, and they're in a chat space and they're asking for help wiring up N8N and the API keys to get some sort of orchestration going between three to four different company tools because they're trying to build a cool little app that would help employees order lunch and that kind of thing.

所以这真的是无处不在。我觉得我们能走在前沿，部分原因就是那些你提到的顶级品牌，我们合作的那些客户，他们告诉我们的。

So it's really pervasive, and part of the reason I think we're at the bleeding edge of it is that's what we hear from some of these top brands that you mentioned we work with.

我就不点名了，但我们的客户里有全球顶尖的科技公司。你可能会以为他们会说自己已经在应用自家技术的最前沿了，可他们却请我们去做演讲，教他们的高管和领导团队，怎么复制我们在Rokt做的事情——就是这种对AI工具的全面使用、理解和拥抱。

I won't name names, but we clients and they're some of the best technology companies in the world, and you would think that they would say they are at the bleeding edge of applying their own technology, but they're bringing us in to give talks and trying to teach their executive and leadership teams and how to replicate what we've been doing at Rokt in terms of just this pervasive use and understanding and embrace of AI tools.

所以这功劳我可不敢揽。

So I can't claim credit for that.

这不仅仅局限于我负责的那些职能部门，它已经成了Rokt呼吸、生活和做事方式的一部分。

It's not limited to these corporate functions that I lead, But it's definitely now just part of the way Rokt breathes and lives and does things.

你们真的成功地把文化转变过来了，从下到上，你团队里的每个人，所有同事，都在用AI来提升他们的工作，而且是以一种真正在改变和重塑整个组织的方式。

You all have successfully transformed the culture to where, from the bottom up, the people on your team, you know, all the teammates, are using, AI, to empower, you know, their their work and to do it in ways that are, really changing and transforming the organization.

对。

One it.

那么，我想请你聊聊这个想法。

So with that, I'd love for you to talk a little bit about this idea.

你稍微深入了一下关于通用化和专业化的话题。

You know, you've dug into a little bit on generalization versus specialization.

你之前提到过，职位种类在逐渐减少，对吧？

You sort of mentioned it earlier with the roles kind of collapsing, right?

过去分工更细。

It used to be much more specialized.

现在职位阶梯、头衔和职业路径都变少了，因为正在向通用化方向发展。

Now it's like a fewer number of job ladders and titles and career paths because that is moving towards generalization a little bit.

跟我们聊聊这个吧，因为它显然有一些很有意思的影响。

Tell us a little bit about that because that obviously has some really interesting implications.

对，这一直是我感兴趣的话题。

Yeah, it's always something I've been interested in.

我觉得我绝对不是个例。

I don't think I'm unique at all.

这其实算是软件架构的基本卫生要求，但我确实把它当作一个座右铭，用来带领我的团队。那就是不断追求用更少的、更通用的解决方案去替代更多、更专门化的解决方案。

It's sort of basic software architecture hygiene, but I did adopt it as kind of a mantra that I would use with teams that I lead, is to constantly seek to replace a larger number of more specialized solutions with a smaller number of more generalized solutions.

即使是优秀的软件工程师和架构师，有时也会陷入这样的陷阱：哦，我遇到了这个特定的问题要解决。

Even very good software engineers and architects sometimes fall into the trap of, oh, I've got this specific problem to solve.

他们就去写一个特定的解决方案，而不是去泛化一个已有的方案。那个方案可能只需要稍微增强或扩展一下，就能解决这一类新问题。

I'm going to go write a specific solution that will solve it, instead of generalizing a preexisting solution which maybe only needs a little bit of enhancement or expansion in its surface area to solve this new class of problem.

所以这个想法，我可能已经念叨很久了。现在，借助这些AI工具的力量，它几乎适用于所有领域，不仅仅是软件。这样一来，你就能减少不同的解决方案和系统的数量，而这些方案和系统能解决越来越多的问题。结果就是，你消除了大量的复杂性、协调工作，还有对成百上千种工具持续的支持。现在，你也许只需要面对几十种不同的工具和解决方案。

So that's something I've been maybe a little bit preachy about for quite a while, and now it applies largely enabled by the power of these AI based tools to any discipline, not just software, so that the ability to reduce the number of different solutions and systems you have that can then in turn solve more and more problems, well, now you've eliminated a lot of complexity, a lot of coordination, a lot of ongoing support of hundreds of different tools, and now maybe you're just talking about dozens of different tools and different solutions.

越来越多的创造力和求知欲，都能投向产品、客户和客户服务，加快进展。

More and more and more of the creativity and the inquisitiveness of the workforce can be pointed at the product and our customers and our clients and accelerating things.

这就像一个自我驱动的飞轮，越转越快。

It's just sort of this flywheel that feeds on itself.

所以几周前，我在LinkedIn上发了一篇关于这个的帖子。我想，简洁、泛化而非过度专门化这些概念，其实已经存在几十年了。

So I put a post on LinkedIn several weeks ago about this, and think these concepts of simplicity, generalization instead of over specialization, they've been around for decades.

这些概念本身并不新鲜，但现在它们真的开始适用于，我觉得，几乎所有人类活动的领域。

They're not new concepts per se, but they're now becoming really applicable across, I would say, almost all fields of human endeavor.

对我来说，这就是为什么我对这波人工智能会给人们带来什么感到乐观的部分原因。

That to me is part of why I'm optimistic about what this wave of AI will do for people.

你提到的其中一点，让你能够在某些方面发挥关键作用……

One of the things you said that enabled you to be able to play a key role, you know, in the ways that...

因为这一切都在变化。

Because this is changing.

是因为有一些永恒的真理，对吧，仍然表明你在这里谈到的这些听起来新颖、创新，但它们也与我们一直知道的一些东西相呼应。

Is it because there are some timeless truths, right, that still say one of the things that you've talked about here is like that, you know, these things sound like new and innovative and all that, but they also connect with, some things that we've kind of always known.

我们只是需要重新审视现实，并根据当前现实重新构想它们。

We're just having to sort of read the reality and, you know, reimagine them for for the the current, you know, reality.

跟我们聊聊这个吧，比尔，因为我真的很喜欢这种思路。

Tell us Talk a little bit about that, Bill, because I really like that line of thinking.

很想多听听。

Love to hear more.

是的，这很有趣。

Yeah, it's interesting.

也许等我再次退休时，会有时间写本书，书名可能会是《变革性技术团队的十大永恒原则》之类的。

Maybe when I retire again I'll have time to I've thought about writing a book, and the title of it would be something like 10 Timeless Tenets for Transformative Tech Teams.

我喜欢押头韵。

I'm a fan of alliteration.

这有点

That's some

确实押得不错。

good alliteration right there.

是的，身为比尔·巴顿，我深信押头韵的好处。

Yeah, well, having been born Bill Barton, I'm a big believer in the benefit of alliteration.

有道理。

Fair enough.

对，所以我觉得这些永恒的元素，我跟人开玩笑说，我有点像恐龙。

Yeah, so I think the timeless elements, I joke with people, I'm sort of a dinosaur.

我入行已经四十多年了，但尽管有AI，我学到的一些教训和经验依然适用。

I've been in the industry for over four decades now, but some of the lessons I've been taught and learned still apply despite AI.

几分钟前你说Rokt很成功。

A few minutes ago you said that Rokt had been successful.

我忘了你具体用的什么词，但你提到了我们要改变文化，让员工接受AI或者推动他们拥抱AI。我觉得很有意思的一点是，我并不认为Rokt的文化变了。

I forget the exact word you used, but you talked about changing our culture to allow people to embrace AI or to get them to embrace AI, and I think one of the really interesting things is I don't think Rokt has changed its culture.

有意思。

Interesting.

我是2022年加入的。

I joined in 2022.

那是在生成式AI和ChatGPT真正开始在职场里普及之前的几年。这两年里，变化确实非常剧烈，而且我相信这种变化还会继续。

It was a couple years before generative AI and ChatGPT and someone first started really manifesting in the workplace, and things have really changed pretty radically just over two years, and I'm sure they'll keep changing.

但我感觉Rokt的文化其实一直没变，而且我觉得拥有一个持久的文化，就是这些永恒真理之一。

But I feel like the culture at Rokt actually has remained the same, and I think having a durable culture is one of these timeless truths.

我在亚马逊待了十年。

I spent ten years at Amazon.

亚马逊有一种非常独特的文化。我觉得谷歌和微软也是这样，每一家伟大的公司，市场上有很多，它们之所以伟大，部分原因就是它们形成了独特的文化，然后这种文化和它吸引来的人才、传统，所有这些又像飞轮一样互相推动。

Amazon has a very unique culture, and I think each of Google and Microsoft, I think every great company, and there are many of them out there, part of what makes them great is they develop a unique culture, and then the culture and the people they attract, the traditions, they all, again, it's like a flywheel.

它们相互促进，最终你会形成一个团队、一家公司，以及一套思维方式，让你能非常快速地完成事情。

They feed it on each other, and you end up with a team and a company and a way of thinking about things that lets you get things done very quickly.

有些事情你就不用再去反复讨论了。

There There are certain things you don't have to litigate anymore.

你知道那些事情。

You know them.

你理解它们。

You understand them.

所以你问到，有哪些永恒的东西？

So you asked, what are some timeless things?

我觉得这就是其中之一。

I think that's one of them.

你要清楚你的原则是什么，你的文化是什么，你的优先事项是什么。

Make sure you know what your principles are, what your culture is, what your priorities are.

我还有一句话，就是明确优先事项能让决策变得简单。

Another saying of mine is that having priorities makes decision making simple.

当然。

Sure.

但一个组织很容易开始出现裂痕。

But it's very easy for an organization for that to begin to fray.

你引进新人。

You bring new people in.

也许他们对文化理解不够深。

Maybe they don't understand the culture as much.

你开始重新争论一些两年前小团队可能不需要争论的问题，所以我认为坚持自己的文化很重要。

You're beginning to relitigate issues which a smaller team maybe two years ago wouldn't have to relitigate, so staying true to your culture I think is important.

我告诉人们，我总结出六个我认为对职场中任何人都非常重要的特质，而且我发现我甚至会给刚毕业的大学生这样的建议，不是Rokt的候选人，而是我自己的孩子，他们最近毕业了，我跟他们的朋友聊天，他们都想听听我这个老前辈对职场有什么看法。

I tell people I've landed on six attributes that I think are really important for anyone in the workplace, and I've found myself giving this advice even to fresh college grads, not candidates at Rokt, but I had kids who recently graduated from school and talking to their friends, and they all want to hear from the dinosaur about what I think they should know about the workplace.

我大致总结出这六个：你必须坚持不懈，必须坚韧不拔，必须严谨细致，必须求知若渴，必须乐观向上，还必须谦虚低调。

I sort of landed on these six, which is you have to be relentless, you have to be resilient, you have to be rigorous, you have to be inquisitive, you have to be optimistic, and you have to be humble.

这六个特质我可以一一展开讲很多，但我认为它们是永恒的特质，如果人们能接受并努力践行，就能帮助他们取得成功。

I could go on and on about each of those six, but I think those are timeless attributes which, if people embrace them and try and live them, help make them successful.

这些是一些文化上的基本原则，是面对工作和生活时固有的品质，能让人应对变化、克服变化、拥抱新事物，不害怕并且茁壮成长。

So these are some of the sort of principle cultural, what are inherent attributes of approaching work and life that can allow someone to encounter change, overcome change, embrace new things, not be fearful and thrive.

我觉得茁壮成长很重要。

And I think it's important to thrive.

仅仅生存是不够的。

It's not enough to survive.

如果你处于非常糟糕的境地，生存就足够了。

It's enough to survive if you're in a really dire situation.

那时候，生存当然看起来很好。

Then, of course, survival seems really great.

总比活不下来强。

It's better than not surviving.

这是一个很低的标准，我觉得在伟大的公司里，人们应该追求茁壮成长。

That's a very low bar and I think at great companies, people should aspire to thrive.

我喜欢这个。

I love it.

关于这个，最后一个问题，我们再稍微深入一下。

Last question about that, just double clicking a little bit.

你也提到过，现在AI和Rokt如何让你的员工——一个有好奇心的个人——能够改变他们的工作方式，它可能成为他们工作的10倍甚至100倍的倍增器。

You've also talked about the ways that AI now and Rokt has enabled your employees to, you know, what an inquisitive individual now can change the way they work, and and it can become this like 10 x to a 100 x kind of multiplier for the way that they they work.

你能谈谈这个吗？

Can you talk about that?

然后这对你考虑员工编制的方式有什么影响？

And then what's that been the impact on, the way you think about headcount?

因为你是……

Because you're...

你管理团队，你考虑招聘和这些方面，因为这是现在未来另一个大问题。

You run people the way you think about hiring and those kinds of things, because that's another one of the big questions right now going forward.

好，我们先谈谈倍增器本身，不管它是10倍还是100倍。

Well, first let's talk about the multiplier itself, whether it's 10x, 100x.

人们随便说这些数字，很难真正严格衡量——这又用到另一个矩阵属性——但很明显，这是一个很大的倍数。

People throw these numbers around, and it's impossible to really measure rigorously to use another matrix attribute, but it's plain to see that it's a large multiple.

就在昨天，我们有个工程师在讲他想怎么把七八个不同的代码库或系统从一个架构迁移到我们新的架构。他一开始想先把规则定下来，让我们的AI团队按照规则去做每个迁移，但就是行不通。

Just yesterday, one of our engineers was giving a talk about how he wanted to migrate seven or eight different entire code bases or systems from one architecture to our newer architecture, and he first tried to codify the rules by which our AI fleet should do each of those migrations, and it just wasn't working.

所以后来他就跟AI团队说，那我们一起来做第一个吧，一步一步来，反复迭代。

So then what he did was he told our AI fleet, he's like, Oh, let's work together and do the first one together, just step by step, highly iterative.

等他和AI团队一起完成了第一个迁移之后，AI就自己去做剩下的六七个或者八个，速度非常快。

And once he and the AI fleet did the first one together, then the AI went off and did the other six, seven or eight or whatever it was super quickly.

所以你看，这就是大约10倍的生产力提升。

So right there, that's on the order of a factor of 10 productivity improvement.

只要做一次，AI就会说，哦，好的，我明白你在做什么了。

Do it once and the AI says, Ah, okay, I see what you're doing.

剩下的九个我自己去做。

I'm going to go do the other nine.

这种情况到处都在发生，不管是软件方面。

And that plays out all over the place, whether it's software.

我们财务团队也有个人一直在搞一个AI解决方案。

There's someone else in our finance team who's been building an AI solution.

大家经常说每个月都要结账。

People talk about closing the books every month.

我们现在基本上每天都在做虚拟结算，所以这些事情都在发生。

We're doing sort of a virtual close every day now, so these things are playing out.

现在我想的是，这如何影响我们对人力投入的看法。对我来说，每个能利用这些工具并做到这一点的员工，现在比其他人有价值10到100倍。我们在行业里也看到过类似的情况，比如当AWS、GCP和Azure这些大型框架出现时，突然之间，你招不到软件工程师了，他们刚毕业就能拿到像投资银行家一样的薪水，因为他们被赋予了这些超强框架，能够创造更多的价值。

Now I think in terms of how does that make us think about our investment in headcount, to me it makes every human worker who can leverage these tools and do that is now 10 to 100 times more valuable than others, and we saw the same thing play out in the industry when, for example, AWS and GCP and Azure and these large frameworks emerged, all of a sudden, you couldn't hire software engineers, and they're starting to get paid like investment bankers fresh out of school because they had been empowered with these super powerful frameworks, they're able to create so much more value.

大家好。

Hey, everybody.

感谢收听本期节目。

Thanks for listening to this episode.

简单说一句，然后我们继续对话。

Quick note, and then we'll get you back to the conversation.

我们每周都很高兴为您带来这些内容。

We love bringing you this content every week.

我们一直在想办法为您提供最大的价值，帮助您理解AI如何改变商业和世界。

We're always trying to figure out how we can deliver you the most value to help you understand how AI is transforming business and transforming the world.

如果你喜欢这个节目，有个简单的方式可以回馈一下，也能帮别人了解这个节目。

If you're enjoying the show, there's an easy way for you to give a little value back and help others learn about the show as well.

如果你在用Apple Podcasts或Spotify，给我们打个分、留个评论吧。

If you're on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, drop us a rating and leave us a review.

如果你在YouTube上，就点个赞、订阅一下，或者留个言。

And if you're on YouTube, hit like, subscribe, or leave us a comment.

就这样。

That's it.

只需要一分钟，但帮了大忙。

It only takes a minute, but it's a huge help.

所以先谢谢你的支持。

So thanks in advance for pitching in.

现在回到正题。

And now back to the show.

好了，Bill，这次节目快结束时，我会像问每个人一样问你同样的问题。

All right, Bill, I'm going to ask you the same questions I ask everybody as we wrap up this podcast as this this episode.

第一个问题是，你个人在用的AI工具是什么？你觉得它特别有意思，而且你觉得更多人应该了解它？

So the first one is, you know, what's the AI tool that you're using personally that's really interesting to you and you think more people should know about?

可惜我的答案没什么特别的，可能大家都已经知道了。

Unfortunately, my answer is not that interesting, and probably everybody already knows about it.

我们内部用了很多工具，有些是自己开发的，都是基于Anthropic和其他系统做的，软件工程行业很多人也在用这些。但就我日常来说，不管是上班还是在家，最让我觉得有意思的就是，我现在用谷歌搜索，能得到一个相当完整、研究得很透的答案，就是直接来自谷歌的。

So we have all these tools we're using internally, some of them homegrown and they're built on top of Anthropic and other systems, and a lot of the software engineering industry is embracing those, but just in my day to day life, be it in the office or outside, just the fact that when I go to Google and I do a search, I get a pretty complete, well researched answer just from Google.

我说的不是用Gemini或者付费订阅那种。

I'm not talking about using Gemini or paying a subscription.

现在的网页搜索跟以前不一样了。

Web search is different now.

通常我只要问个问题，就能得到不错的答案，它把所有需要知道的信息都给我了。

Usually I just ask a question, I get a pretty good answer, it gives me everything I need to know.

有时候我还可以点进去再深入查一查。

Sometimes I can click through and do more research.

但对我来说，AI真正吸引人的地方在于它开始变得无处不在，你可能几乎都没注意到，哦，原来我是在用AI了。

But to me, the really interesting thing about AI is where it's just becoming kind of pervasive and maybe you barely even notice, oh, I'm using AI now.

我觉得这正在改变一切，我每天大概会用到上百次。

I think that's changing things, and I interact with it probably 100 times a day.

我可能有偏见，因为我们在亚马逊打造Alexa时，就是想做到这一点，让智能变得无摩擦、无处不在。不过我觉得现在搜索引擎的表现真的越来越好，过去我们叫它搜索引擎，现在我都不知道该怎么称呼它了。

I might be biased because that's part of what we were trying to do when we built Alexa at Amazon, was to make the intelligence frictionless and pervasive, but I think it's getting really, really good in the search, what we used to call a search engine, and now it's just, I don't know what to call it.

信息助手。

Information It's assistant.

对，或信息助手。

Or information assistant.

不错，不错。

That's good, that's good.

我知道我们没怎么深入聊到你在亚马逊的经历，不过你还在密切关注他们的一些动态吗？

I know we didn't get to get into Amazon too much, your history there, but do you still follow with a close eye some of the things that they're doing?

我不敢说我对他们所有的动态都密切关注，但有很多事情我还是会稍微留意一下。当然，我也有很多优秀的同事，我们一起度过了很多年，我们在LinkedIn上保持联系，或者干脆就是朋友，偶尔还会聚一聚，所以跟他们保持联系确实很有趣。

I wouldn't say I follow any of the things they're doing with a close eye, but I follow many of the things they're doing with at least glancing off to the side, and of course I have many wonderful colleagues who I spent many years with, and we're connected on LinkedIn or just outright friends and get together once in a while, so it's definitely fun to keep up with them.

就像我说的，我觉得亚马逊是一家独一无二的公司，一家很棒的公司。

Like I said, I think Amazon is a unique company, a great company.

我在那里过得很愉快，我觉得他们最大的优点之一就是敢于大胆创新。

Loved my time there, and I think part of what they're great at is being bold and innovating.

非常好。

Very good.

那个我们就留到下次再聊吧。

We'll save that for next time.

下次我会再多问你一些你在那里工作的事。

I'll ask you some more about your time building.

亚马逊的故事。

Amazon tales.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

非常好。

Very good.

好的。

All right.

那么最后一个问题，确实是现在很多领导者都非常关心的，就是关于如何最大化利用我的时间，我经常听到领导者们讨论这个话题。

So the last question is one that is really a top of mind for a lot of leaders right now, which is this idea of I hear leaders talk a lot about about how do I get maximum leverage for my time?

AI的承诺是，它将自动化处理很多……

And the promise of AI was that it was gonna automate away a lot of the...

那些琐碎的工作，我们不想做的事情，那些任务……

So the grunt work, the things we didn't wanna do, you know, the tasks that were...

我们总是想尽快完成，以便能去做更有价值的事情。

That we always wanted to get through as quick as we could so that we could get to the more valuable things.

但现在我看到的大多数领导者，以及那个承诺，最终你可以去放松，享受更多，比如骑自行车，就像你之前提到的。

But most of the leaders that I see now, you know, and the promise with that is that eventually you could touch grass or go and enjoy more, take a bike ride to your point too.

但事实上，我现在看到的是，更多的领导者反而在花更多的时间。

But what I see now is, in fact, more leaders are spending more time.

他们工作得更辛苦了。

They're working more.

他们看到了更多把事情做完的机会。

You know, they see more opportunity to get things done.

所以他们真的埋头苦干，做更多的工作。

And so they're, you know, really into keeping their head down and doing more work.

因此，我现在认识的所有领导者都在认真思考这一点。

And so with that, you know, all of the leaders that I know right now are really thoughtful about.

你之前提到了关于优先事项的观点。

And you elevated this idea early about priorities.

我该如何安排我的时间？

How do I prioritize my time?

我该如何设定我的优先事项？

How do I set my priorities?

我该如何优化并确保把时间花在最重要的事情上？

How do I optimize and make sure I'm spending my time on the most important things?

所以，既然你是领导中的领导，很多工作……

And so since you are a leader of leaders, you know, a lot of work...

你做的事情，我相信，是指导其他领导者。

The work you do, I'm sure, is coaching, you know, other leaders.

我很想听听你的建议……

I would love to hear what your, you know, tips...

给那些想在这个AI时代优化时间的其他领导者最好的建议是什么。

Best tip is for for other leaders who are trying to optimize their time in the age of eight.

是的，这个问题又是我可能因为是个老古董，经历过这些浪潮，才有的看法。是的，这些AI工具带来的变化速度在很多方面确实不同，但我认为那些对工作充满热情的人，几千年来可能一直在纠结这个权衡：是把另外十分钟、一个小时、一天、一年，或者无论多少时间精力投入到他们热爱的工作中，还是留给家庭、休息、假期和其他追求。

Yeah, that question is another one where maybe because I'm a dinosaur and have been through these waves before, Yes, the pace of change with these AI tools is different in many ways, but I think people who are passionate about their work have, for millennia, probably wrestled with this trade off between putting another ten minutes, another hour, another day, another year or whatever it is of their energy into these things they're passionate about, their work, versus family, rest, vacation, and other pursuits.

而且我认为关于这个问题的智慧在这些千年里并没有真正改变多少，对每个人来说，你需要找到一个可持续的节奏，也就是所谓的工作生活和谐，有时候你可能需要全天候工作，而其他时候你可能需要退一步，而且我认为答案因人而异。

And I don't think the wisdom about this has really changed much over those millennia, and for every individual, you need to get a sustainable rhythm where you have quote work life harmony, and there are periods where you might be working 20 fourseven, and then there are other periods where you need to take a step back, and I think the answer is different for everyone.

你看，在我职业生涯早期，当我亲自动手写代码时，我有时会进入我所谓的编码狂热状态，一直干到凌晨三点，睡得不够。

Look, early in my career when I was coding hands on, I sometimes would get into what I call the coding frenzy and be cranking away until three in the morning and not get enough sleep.

现在我们过了四十年、四十五年，不管多少年了，一切都围绕AI，这确实很让人着迷。

Here we are forty, forty five years later, whatever it is, and it's all about AI, and it can be really intoxicating.

然后你投入工作，一转眼，天哪，已经凌晨三点了。

And you get into your work, and the next thing you know, it's like, oh my god, it's 3AM.

我真的该去睡会儿觉了。

I should really get some sleep.

我个人觉得，这一点并没有发生翻天覆地的变化。

I personally don't see how it's dramatically changed.

好的。

Okay.

所以，优先级。

So priorities.

你之前提到过这一点。

You elevated that earlier.

设定你的优先级。

Setting your priorities.

你说过，设定优先级能让决策变得容易很多。

You mentioned setting priorities makes decision making a lot easier.

那你现在还觉得，擅长设定优先级是管理这一切的关键吗？

So would you still say that it's as true as ever that being really good at setting priorities is the key to managing all of that?

是的，我觉得是这样。

Yeah, I think so.

我觉得不管你的优先级是什么，只要你能清楚它们，并且意识到自己开始偏离的时候，那就是一个信号，提醒你可能需要调整时间分配了。

I think whatever one's priorities are, being clear on them and recognizing when you're beginning to stray is the signal that maybe you need to change how you're investing your time.

而且我觉得，我们每个人在生活中都会遇到那种一切都很顺利的阶段。

And I think for any of us, we get into these states in our lives where everything is kind of clicking.

就像，工作进展得很顺利，工作之外的生活也过得很好。

It's like, oh, work is going really well, and my life outside of work is going really well.

当工作顺利的时候，我会把更多的正能量带到工作之外的生活中。

And when my work is going well, I bring more positive energy to my life outside of work.

而当生活顺利的时候，我又会把那份正能量带回工作中。

And when that's going well, then I bring that positive energy back to work.

我非常相信飞轮效应，你得让自己的个人飞轮朝着积极的方向转动起来。

I'm a big believer in flywheels, and you have to get your personal flywheel turning in a positive direction.

我觉得对任何人来说都很容易让它开始往回滑，那样对工作或工作之外的生活都没有好处。

It's really easy, I think, for any of us to maybe let it start sliding backwards, and that doesn't help either work or your life outside of work.

但不管你的优先事项是什么，明确它们并记得尊重它们，我认为这能帮助你进入那种积极的飞轮状态，而且通常问题出在我们自己身上。

But whatever one's priorities are, being clear on them and remembering to respect them I think helps you get into this sort of positive flywheel zone, and it's usually ourselves.

通常是我们自己给自己找麻烦，在优先级排序上犯错误。

We're the ones who usually do it to ourselves and start kicking own goals when it comes to misprioritizing.

不是我们的老板，或者，哦，今天早上有人辞职了，或者，哦，某个客户对我做了这个那个。

It's not our boss or, Oh, someone resigned this morning, or, Oh, a customer did this or that to me.

在这方面，我们通常比任何其他人都更有掌控力。

We're usually in much more control than anybody else about how that's going.

比尔，你说的这些真是永恒的真理。

Lots of timeless truths there, Bill.

谢谢你。

Thank you.

非常感谢你抽出时间。

Thank you so much for your time.