克里斯·威廉姆森：关于男女为何不再相容的惊人新研究！

我不是技术天才，但我知道如果想让我的业务大获成功，现在就需要一个网站。幸运的是，Bluehost让这一切变得简单。我用AI按照自己的想法定制、优化并变现了一切。几分钟内，我的网站就上线了。我简直不敢相信。

I'm no tech genius, but I knew if I wanted my business to crush it, I needed a website now. Thankfully, Bluehost made it easy. I customized, optimized, and monetized everything exactly how I wanted with AI. In minutes, my site was up. I couldn't believe it.

搜索引擎工具甚至帮我获得了更多网站访问者。无论你的激情项目是什么，都可以用Bluehost来搭建。他们有30天退款保证，你有什么可损失的呢？前往bluehost.com，也就是blueh0st.com，立即开始吧。

The search engine tools even helped me get more site visitors. Whatever your passion project is, you can set it up with Bluehost. With their thirty day money back guarantee, what do you got to lose? Head to bluehost.com. That's blueh0st.com to start now.

78%的女性希望约会对象的教育程度或职业状况与自己相当。这完全是一种不平衡，这就是我所说的高个子女孩问题。这位是克里斯·威廉姆森。他是一位企业家，从前夜店推广人转型为播客主，播客下载量已超过7000万次。

78% of women want to date a man who is as educated or as employed as they are. This is just a straight up imbalance, and this is what I've called the tall girl problem. So Chris Williamson. He is an entrepreneur. Former club promoter turned podcaster with more than 70,000,000 downloads.

我是怎么走到今天的？克里斯，你是否意识到驱动着你的阴暗面？我真的很想探讨这个问题。在整个学校期间我一直都不受欢迎，遭受严重欺凌，没有朋友群体。所以我妥协了太多真实的自我，只为了在那个世界里尽可能受欢迎和成功。

How did I get here? Chris, are you aware of the dark side that's driving you? I really wanna go here. I've been chronically unpopular throughout all of school, badly bullied, didn't have a group of friends. So I'd compromised an awful lot of who I truly was to try and just be as popular and successful in that world as possible.

但总有一种隐约的感觉，觉得我有什么地方出了问题。日记里有几条不同的记录，都写着：我觉得我很孤独。15%的男性表示他们没有任何亲密朋友。

But there was a ambient sense that something is broken with me in a journal. I I've got a couple of different entries, and it just put, I think I'm lonely. 15% of men say that they have zero close friends.

我们哪里出了问题？

Where did we go wrong?

社交连接的世界变得越来越不社交。预测你一生健康结果的最重要指标是你拥有的亲密连接数量。这比去健身房更重要，比戒酒更重要。处于关系中的人有更好的健康结果。

The world of social connection has been made less and less social. Single biggest predictor of your health outcomes in life are the number of close connections that you have. It's more than going to the gym. It's more than stopping drinking. People that are in relationships have better health outcomes.

但18至30岁男性中，有三分之一在过去一年中没有过性生活。80%的男性表示因为害怕被视作变态而不敢接近女性。到2040年，45%的25至45岁女性将会保持单身且无子女。你开始能看出这种失衡会如何引发问题。这是个非常棘手的对话。

But one in three men between the ages of 18 and 30 hasn't had sex in the last year. Eighty percent of men report not approaching a woman because they are scared of being seen as creepy. And by 2040, forty five percent of twenty five to forty five year old women will be single and childless. You can start to see how this imbalance could cause a problem. This is a very difficult conversation.

我们需要做的第一件事是

The first thing that we need to do is

克里斯，你涉猎广泛且在很多方面都做得非常出色。我在思考如何引导这场对话时遇到的困难，其实是理解——因为你的思维、理念和感兴趣的主题如此多元——该如何准确概括你的本质。所以我想首先问：用你自己的话来说，你的使命是什么？

Chris, you do a lot of things and you do a lot of things very, very well. One of the struggles I had when thinking about how to direct this conversation was really like understanding because you're so diverse in your thinking and your ideas and the subject matter that you're curious about, how to try and encapsulate exactly who you are. So I guess the question I wanted to start with is, in your own words, what is your mission?

我是个充满好奇心的人。一直如此，而现在通过我的播客《现代智慧》，我有机会将这种好奇心商业化、利用化、武器化，从而能邀请我感兴趣的人。举个好例子：我在大学读了商科的本科和硕士，一直后悔没去学哲学或心理学。回想起来，这让我对大学有些耿耿于怀，因为我花了那么多时间学的东西对商业世界毫无教益。但开始做播客后，我意识到我其实设计了自己最完美的大学学位——拥有全球顶尖的讲师，而且可以按自己想要的节奏每周进行三次。

I'm a very curious person. I always have been, and I now have the opportunity with my podcast, Modern Wisdom, to commercialise, utilise, weaponise that so that I can bring people in that I'm interested in. So a good example, I did a master's and a bachelor's degree at uni in business, and I always regretted not going and doing philosophy or psychology. And in retrospect, it always made me resentful of uni a little bit because I'd spent all of this time learning stuff that didn't teach me anything about the business world. But then upon starting the podcast, what I realized was that I've been able to design my perfect university degree with the top lecturers on the planet, and I get to do it three times a week at the cadence that I want.

我不仅能请到想要的讲师，还能就他们工作中我感兴趣的具体领域提问。所以是好奇心驱动着我。我做这些是因为我想知道——我想知道一切。我想知道昨晚坐在我们旁边吃饭的那位男士为什么决定穿西装配匡威鞋。

And not only do I get the lecturers that I want, but I get to ask them about the specific area of their work that I want as well. So it's curiosity. The thing that drives me is curiosity. The reason that I do this is because I wanna know I wanna know about everything. I wanna know about why the guy that was sat next to us at dinner last night decided to wear a suit with, like, Converse.

我就是想知道。这背后有什么故事？所以是好奇心。

Like, I wanna know. Like, what is it about that? So curiosity.

这个答案聚焦于你从中获得什么。那么是否存在某种外部使命？某种你给予世界的东西，某种通过传递给世界而为你提供意义的东西？这方面是否也有答案？

That answer is focused on what you get from it. Right? Is there any sort of an external mission, something that it gives to the world that you're particularly and something that provides you meaning by delivering it to the world. Is there is there an answer there too?

是的。在我二十几岁快结束时，我拥有了很多社会认为你应该拥有的成功象征。我经营着这个大型夜生活活动生意，对此我非常自豪，现在依然如此。但尽管我在推特上有蓝标认证，有免费的竹炭牙膏，上过《爱情岛》和《带我出去》节目，人们知道我的名字，我也有了金钱上的成功和地位等等，但总感觉缺少些什么。我并不是特别了解自己。我认为这是很多人，尤其是男性在接近三十岁时都会遇到的问题。

Yeah. So toward the end of my twenties, I had a lot of the trappings of success that maybe society would tell you that you should have. So, running this big nightlife events business, which I was very proud of and still am, but there was something missing despite the fact that I had the blue tick on Twitter and the free charcoal toothpaste and I'd been on Love Island and take me out and people knew my name and I had, you know, monetary success and status and stuff. But there's something missing, and I didn't really understand myself particularly well. And I think that that's a problem that a lot of people get to, especially guys toward the end of their twenties.

他们发现，我所吸收的所有那些本应让我快乐的价值观，也许并不能像承诺的那样让我感到满足。这需要我进行一些反思。我意识到我其实并没有太多自己的观点。我一直在扮演一个角色——校园里的风云人物、派对男孩、俱乐部推广人、城里的大人物——为了在那个世界里尽可能受欢迎和成功，我妥协了太多真实的自我。对吧？

They think all of the values that I have absorbed that are supposed to be the things that make me happy, maybe don't fulfil me in the way that they were promised. And that required me to do some reflection. And I realised I actually didn't have very many opinions. What I'd been doing was I'd been playing a role as this big name on campus party boy, club promoter, big dick around town guy and I'd compromised an awful lot of who I truly was to try and just be as popular and successful in that world as possible. Right?

这意味着我并不真正了解自己。我不真正理解我的使命或目标。现在回想起来，我意识到我从过去走到现在所采取的所有步骤——虽然现在仍然像个成年婴儿，但稍微好了一些——所有这些，都是我可以赠予他人的经验教训，能帮助他们加速成功，避开陷阱，用更少的时间、更少的孤独、更少的痛苦和磨难达到同样的目标。希望通过与那些改变我生活、给予我教训的人交流，我可以将这些传递给别人，帮助他们从我曾经的位置走到比我现在更好的地方。

What that meant was I didn't really understand myself. I didn't really understand my mission or my purpose. And now looking back, I realized that all of the steps that I took to get from where I was to where I am now, which is still like an adult infant, but slightly less so, all of that, they are lessons that I can gift to other people that will help them to expedite success, avoid the pitfalls, do it in less time with less loneliness, with less pain and suffering than I had to go through to achieve the same thing. And hopefully, by speaking to people that changed my life, that gave me lessons, I can then pass those on to other people and get them from where I was to somewhere that's even better than where I am now.

好的。那么带我回到过去。是哪些多米诺骨牌接连倒下，哪些连接点把你带到了那个时刻——成为校园里的派对男孩，上电视节目《带我出去》，经营俱乐部之夜？带我回到起点。关于那段早期经历，有哪些最重要的事情我需要了解，它们把你带到了那个时刻？

Okay. So take me back. What are the dominoes that fell all the connecting dots that took you to that point where you were the party boy on campus that was on take me out on TV and running club nights. Take me back to the start. What are the most important things I need to know about that early experience that took you to that moment?

来到纽卡斯尔大学，我在整个上学期间一直非常不受欢迎。被欺负得很厉害，相当孤独，是独生子，就是没有一个小团体。真的没有一群朋友。在体育方面很成功，有一个团队，但并没有真正紧密的朋友圈。上了大学后，情况稍微好了一些。

Arrived at university in Newcastle, and I've been chronically unpopular throughout all of school. Pretty badly bullied, pretty alone, only child, and just didn't have a a squad. Didn't have a a group of friends, really. Was successful in in sports and had a team, but didn't really have a a tight group of friends. Got to college, and that was a little bit better.

开始稍微放开一点，但仍然不多。然后你进入大学。和每个学生一样，你知道，暑假回家时你会想，我要重新塑造自己，我要成为那个酷小孩。所以我到了大学，这是一个很好的契机，既有新机会成为一个新的人，也可能社交能力稍微强了一些。和我第一次研讨会坐在旁边的家伙一起开始经营夜生活活动生意。

Started to come out of my shell a little bit, but still not much. And then you get to uni. And the same as every school kid, you know, you'd go home for summer and you'd be like, I'm gonna reinvent myself and I'm gonna be the cool kid. So I arrived at university, and that was a good intersection of a new opportunity to be a new person and also maybe a little bit more social ability. Start running a nightlife events business with the guy that I sit next to in my first ever seminar.

之后，我们很快达到了非常成功的阶段。我立即将很多自我认同与人生中第一次超级成功的事情绑定在一起，那就是经营夜生活。我可以变得有名。我可以让人们需要我——这并不完全等同于想要我，但他们需要我，这已经足够接近了。所以我想，好吧。

After that, we get to the stage where that's very successful very quickly. I immediately tied a lot of my identity to the first thing I've ever been super successful in in life, which is running a nightlife. I can get renowned. I can have people that need me, which is not really the same as wanting me, but they need me, which is close enough. So I think, right.

好吧，如果我全身心投入到这项事业中，那么我就会被整个世界所接纳。在接下来的十年左右时间里，这意味着我完全致力于那个使命。我们做得非常非常出色，从纽卡斯尔扩展到曼彻斯特，每周多个晚上在多个城市演出。然后我竭尽全力获取更多的影响力。

Well, if I just throw all of myself into this business, then I'm going to be accepted by the world at large. And over the space of the next ten years or so, that meant that I, fully dedicated myself to that mission. And we were very, very good at it. Expanded from Newcastle to Manchester multiple nights per week across multiple cities. And then I did whatever it took to get more clout as well.

所以参加了《带我出去》节目，然后是《爱情岛》第一季，我是第一个进入《爱情岛》的人。我投入了所有时间。《爱情岛》是一个有趣的反思期，因为那里无处可藏。没有干扰，没有电视，没有手机，没有笔记本电脑，没有朋友，没有书籍，什么都没有。对吧？

So Take Me Out, then first season of Love Island, first person through the doors on Love Island. And I spent all of this time. Love Island was an interesting reflection period because there was nowhere for me to hide. No distractions, no TV, no phone, no laptop, no friends, no books, no nothing. Right?

只有你和这群人。而《爱情岛》别墅里的这群人，正是我以为自己是的那种人的真实版本。我以为自己是校园里的风云派对男孩，然后我被扔进了这个无法逃脱的、武器级别的派对男孩和派对女孩的堡垒中。我环顾四周，心想，啊，我不应该在这里。有点不对劲。

There's just you and this group of people. And the group of people that were in the Love Love Island villa were genuine versions of the person that I thought I was. I thought that I was this big name on campus party boy, and then I get deposited into this inescapable, weapons grade bunker of those party boys and party girls. And I look around and go, ah, I'm not supposed to be here. Something's off.

有些不协调。行不通。然后我出来后，并不是天空突然开阔，我意识到我的道路不是在电视上穿小泳裤。然而，这确实让我思考——我称之为一次致命的对比剂量——我再也无法隐藏这里有些不对劲的事实，那是个好时机。你的乔丹·彼得森，你的《人生学校》的阿兰·德波顿，你的萨姆·哈里斯，你的乔·罗根都开始崭露头角。

Something's discordant. It's not working. And then I get out and it wasn't like and then the skies opened, I realized that my path was not to wear small swim shorts on TV. However, it did make me think it was a a very I call it a fatal dose of contrast that I was no longer able to hide that there is something a little bit off here, and that was a good time. Your Jordan Peterson's, your Alanda Botton from the School of Life's, your Sam Harris's, your Joe Rogans are all coming to the front.

我开始消费他们的内容，这让我思考，哇。我实际上这触动了我。它帮助我教育自己变得更好，理解自己，我想我就是这样逐渐退出那个圈子的。

I start consuming their stuff, and it makes me think, wow. I I actually this speaks to me. It helps to educate me to be better and to understand myself, and that's kind of how I phased out, I suppose.

当你谈到在学校社交方面遇到困难时，原因是什么？你有没有诊断过为什么你在学校没有'合群'？

When you talk about struggling in school socially, what was the reason for that? Have you ever sort of diagnosed why you didn't quote, unquote fit in in school?

是的。所以我认为任何独生子女都难以达到他们需要的社交化水平，以获得与有兄弟姐妹的人相同的社交技能。对吧？想想看，如果你有兄弟姐妹，你们花了多少时间争吵、打架、睡觉、你在准备时他们敲你的门、争抢卫生间，所有这些微小的互动。我完全没有这些经历。

Yeah. So quite I I think any only child struggles to be socialized to the level that they need to in order to have the same set of social skills that anyone with a a brother or sister does. Right? Like, think about how much time you, with a sibling, spend arguing, hitting each other, going to sleep, them knocking on your door when you're trying to get ready, arguing for the bathroom, all of these tiny little interactions. I had none of that.

对吧？即使你像我一样把所有空闲时间都花在俱乐部、运动等各种活动上，这仍然很难。我认为我骨子里有些内向，这些因素结合起来让我不太理解其他孩子。所以我过去会痴迷于一些事情，比如其他孩子的发型、他们在学校打领带的方式、他们穿的鞋子类型、他们背包的方式、背包挎在哪边肩膀上——因为我固执地认为这就是他们有朋友而我没有的原因，因为我无法理解为什么我没有朋友。实际上是因为我在社交方面与孩子们特别难以建立联系，尤其缺乏多样化的社交技能。

Right? And even if you spent every waking moment of free time in clubs and sports and whatnot that I did, it's gonna be hard. And then I think that there is some inherent introversion in me, and it kind of combined for me to not really understand other kids. So I used to obsess over things like, the kind of hairstyle that other kids had or the way that they tied their tie in school or the type of shoes that they wore, the way that they carried their bag, which shoulder their bag was on because I was adamant I would fixate on that, and that would be the reason that they had friends and I didn't because I couldn't understand why I didn't have friends. What it was was that I couldn't socially relate to kids particularly well because I didn't have a wide variety of social skills.

所以我挣扎着。但我当时非常专注地观察，就像在问：到底是什么？发生了什么？我试图评估。是不是因为史蒂芬把手表戴在右手腕而不是左手腕？

So I struggled. But I was taking this super attentive, like, what is it? What's going on? I was trying to assess. Is it because Steven wears his watch on his right wrist instead of his left wrist?

是不是因为这个那个的原因？因为我当时试图诊断问题出在哪里。

Is it because of whatever whatever? Because I was trying to diagnose what was going on.

你知道驱动你的是什么吗？无论是好是坏，光明还是黑暗？我更具体地想从黑暗面开始。你是否曾与自己对话过——当我说的黑暗面，这是个主观术语——但驱动你的那个黑暗面？

Do you know what's driving you from, you know, the good and the bad, the light and the dark? I'm I'm more specifically interested to start with the dark. Do you ever have conversations with yourself about the when I say dark, it's a subjective term, but the dark side that's driving you?

绝对有。是的。经常如此。当然。我认为任何认为自己纯粹被爱和积极反馈驱动的人通常都是困惑的。

Absolutely. Yeah. Chronically. Of course. I think anybody that believes that they're driven by a pure love, and positive reinforcement is usually confused.

我认为有一项研究调查了高度成功人士、超级成功人士最常见的三个特质。我们说的是顶级CEO们。第一个是严重的不足感。第二个是优越情结，第三个是能够保持疯狂专注的能力。这就是彼得森的故事，你可能熟悉这个。

I think that, there was a a study done that looked at the three most common traits of highly successful people, hyper successful people. We're talking top level CEOs. The first one was a crippling sense of insufficiency. The second one was a superiority complex, and the third one was, an ability to have maniacal focus. So what you have and it's this this Peterson story, which you may be familiar with.

他们让老鼠挨饿然后把它们放进管子里。他们在老鼠尾巴上绑一个弹簧，这样就能知道它们用了多大的拉力，这可以作为欲望的代理指标。对吧？这就是它们有多想要。他们从前面飘来奶酪的气味，老鼠就会朝着奶酪的方向拉。

They starve rats and put them into a tube. They attach a spring to the tail of the rat so that they can tell how much force they're pulling with, and that gives a, proxy for desire. Right? That's how much they want it. They waft the smell of cheese in from the front, and the rat pulls toward the cheese.

你认为这些老鼠正在挨饿。它们会非常用力地拉。然后他们把老鼠拿出来，进行研究的另一个迭代。这次，他们从前面飘来奶酪的香味，从后面飘来猫的气味。老鼠拉得更用力了。这说明了什么道理？

And you think these rats are starving. They're gonna be pulling very Then they take the rats out and they do another iteration of the study. This time, they waft the smell of cheese in from the front and they waft the smell of a cat in from behind. The rats pull harder. What's the lesson?

在生活中，你不仅需要朝着你想要的东西奔跑，还需要逃离你害怕的东西。我在我的节目中与600位高绩效者交谈过。我认为平均而言，那些在任何领域都表现出色的人，大多是被对不足的恐惧所驱动，而不是被完美平衡的成功欲望所驱动。成功与幸福之间的这种张力，我认为是你我都相当感兴趣的话题。

In life, not only do you need to run towards something that you want, but you need to run away from something that you fear. And I've spent I've spoken to 600 high performers on my show. Right? I would say that on average, most of the people that are unbelievably good at anything that they do are driven by a fear of insufficiency, not by a perfectly balanced desire for success. And this tension between success and happiness, I think, is something that both me and you are quite, interested in.

之所以有趣，是因为很多时候我们为了得到想要的东西而牺牲了它本身。对吧？比如为了变得幸福，我们牺牲幸福去追求成功，希望成功能带来幸福。如果你用一个等式来描述这个过程，然后从两边同时去掉成功，你还剩下什么？只剩下幸福。我并不是说你要放弃所有对地位、赞誉和奋斗的渴望，你仍然需要走出去做事。

So the reason it's interesting is a lot of the time, we sacrifice the thing we want for the thing which is supposed to get it. Right? So if in service of becoming happy, we sacrifice happiness to achieve success in the hopes that success will make us happy, If you created an equation of what's going on and you just removed success from both sides, what are you left with? Just happiness. Now I'm not saying that you can recant all of your desires for status and accolade and and striving and stuff like you need to go out and and do things.

但我确实认为很多时候我们把世界复杂化了。很大程度上是因为小时候，父母会通过表扬来强化我们的成功，在我们失败时批评我们，这随着我们长大可能会演变成：只有赢了，我才配得到爱、接纳、钦佩和赞美。这导致你更害怕成为失败者，而不是想要成为赢家。赢就像麻醉剂，掩盖了对不足的恐惧。当我做俱乐部推广时，我知道如果我站在夜总会前门，人们会需要我。他们想要VIP手环。

But I do think that a lot of the time, we overcomplicate the world. And a lot of it is because when we're kids, our parents will reinforce our, successes by praising us and will criticize us when we fail, which can metastasize as we grow up into being I am only worthy of love and acceptance and admiration and praise if I win. It cause causes you to fear being a loser more than want to be a winner, And winning solves, it's like an anesthetic, right, that that papers over fears of insufficiency. So, yeah, I mean, when I was a club promoter, I knew that if I stood in the front door of a nightclub that people would need me. They want the VIP bands.

他们想进入有漂亮女孩的地方。他们想更便宜或免费得到一瓶伏特加，或者想跳过排队等等，所以他们需要我。当把这种情况延伸到播客时，我必须非常小心，不要只是把同样的能量转化——从赠予人们进入夜总会的资格，变成现在赠予他们我学到的见解、从有趣的人那里获得能改善他们生活的概念，无论是一起吃饭还是共进午餐。我必须小心避免这种情况。对于那些可能共鸣于这种对不足的恐惧、觉得必须向世界提供些什么才能感到自己有价值的人，是有可能解除这种编程的。

They wanna be in the place where the pretty girls are. They want to get in for cheaper or a free bottle of vodka, or they they wanna skip the queue or whatever, so they need me. And then when you roll it forward to the podcast, I have to be very careful that I don't just transmute that same energy into instead of gifting people entry into nightclubs, now I'm gifting them insights that I've learned, concepts from some interesting person that's going to improve their life as we sit around a dinner table or as we go out for a lunch or whatever. I have to be careful that that's not the case. And for the people that maybe resonate with this fear of insufficiency and this requirement to offer the world something in order for the world to feel like they're worthy, it is possible to deprogram it.

是有可能把这种音量调低的。但你要付出的代价之一是你的驱动力，因为逃离恐惧的老鼠会比奔向渴望的老鼠拉得更用力。超级竞争者的特质不仅包括优越感 complex，还包括对失败的 crippling 焦虑。所以成功与失败之间的这种张力是一种驱动力，但它是一种极其有毒的燃料。对吧？

It is possible to tune that volume down. But one of the things that you're going to pay a price with is your drive because the rat that is running away from something that it fears will pull harder than the rat that's just running towards something that it wants. The traits of super competitive people don't just include the superiority complex, but the crippling anxiety about being a failure. So this tension between success and failure is it is a driver, but it's an incredibly toxic fuel. Right?

被对不足的恐惧所驱动可以非常有效，但也很危险。举最后一个例子，埃迪·霍尔，世界最强壮的男人，他在领奖台上退役。他高举奖杯说，这是给你的，奶奶。他的祖母最近去世了，他在哭泣，他体重两百公斤，身高六尺四寸，你知道，他奋斗了一生。之后不久他在一次采访中说，如果他没有赢得世界最强壮男人称号，他会死掉，单身，与孩子没有关系，因为他通过举重（以及可能服用的药物）把自己的身体推到了极限。

To be propelled by fear of insufficiency can work super well, but it it it's very dangerous. As a final example, Eddie Hall, world's strongest man, and he retires on the podium. He's holding this trophy in the air, and he's saying, this is for you, Nana. And his grandma's passed away recently, and he's crying, and he's two hundred kilos and six foot four, and, you know, he's worked his entire life. And he said in an interview shortly afterward that if he hadn't won the World's Strongest Man, he would be dead, single, with no relationship to his kid because he was pushing his body so hard with the lifting and presumably the drugs that he was taking.

他训练得如此刻苦，以至于与妻子的关系濒临破裂，而且他经常不在家，与孩子之间几乎没有联系。杰森·帕尔甘说，要接受你所有的英雄都是狗屁这一事实。你的英雄不是神。他们只是普通人，通过牺牲其他一切而在某一方面变得特别出色。这就是你为成功付出的代价，而大多数人都不愿意付出这个代价。

He was training so much that his relationship with his wife was breaking down, and he was out of the house so much he had no relationship to his kid. Jason Pargain says, accept that all of your heroes are full of shit. Your heroes aren't gods. They're just regular people who got particularly good at one thing by sacrificing literally everything else. That's the price that you pay for success, and most people wouldn't pay it.

关于重新编程你内心那种有毒驱动力的观点，我经常独自思考。我在想，当我思考地位游戏以及我们常常认为自己已经超越了某种地位游戏时。你知道，我播客上请过一位嘉宾，他详细讨论了地位的进化基础，提到如果你去英国一个不太富裕的地区，那里人们运动服上的标志会更大。

That point about reprogramming the toxic drive that you have, I often ponder with myself. I'm like and when I think about status games and how status games that you know, we often think that we're over a certain status game. So, you know, I had a guy on my podcast who talked a lot about the evolutionary basis of status and how if you go to an estate in The UK where there's not a lot of money, they'll have bigger logos on their track suits.

是威尔吗

Is it Will

威尔·斯托尔。很棒的人。然后随着人们越来越富有，这些标志变得越来越小，显然他们玩的是另一种类型的游戏。没错。那是关于游艇和其他东西的游戏。

Will Storr. Great guy. And then as people get richer and richer, these logos get smaller and obviously they play a different type of game. Correct. It's about boats and other things.

这真的像一吨砖头一样击中了我，因为我以为我全身穿黑色，我真的没有任何——我只有一件物质财产。你昨晚看到了，就是我背的那个包，我一直在等它坏掉。

And I that really hit me like a ton of bricks because I I thought dressed in all black, I really don't have any I have one material possession. You saw it last night, which is the bag I had on, which I'm waiting for it to break.

不错的包。

Nice bag.

是个不错的包。是的。但在外面，我以为我已经超越了地位游戏，然后我意识到我只是在玩另一套地位游戏。

It's a nice bag. Yeah. But outside, I thought I'm I'm over status games, and I realized that I'm just playing a different set of status games.

反信号。是的。是的。红运动鞋效应。这就是为什么身价十亿的CEO可以穿着连帽衫出现，而身价五十万的CEO仍然穿着三件套西装。

The counter signal. Yeah. Yeah. The red sneaker effect. It's the reason that the CEO that's worth a billion can turn up in a hoodie, but the CEO that's worth half a million still wears a three piece suit.

这被称为还有一个概念叫地位理发杆。所以你可以想象，那些在地位上处于绝对顶端的人，他们需要确保下面的人不会被误认为是他们，但他们可以通过反信号来做到这一点，所以你看那些流浪风格的喇叭裤和连帽衫，你知道，甚至是Essentials、Yeezy、Ye的东西。几乎都像是流浪汉时尚。为什么？嗯，这是因为我太酷太时髦了，可以从顶端进行反信号。

It's called the there's another idea called the barber pole of status. So you can imagine that, people who are at the absolute top in terms of status, they need to make sure that the people below them can't be confused for them, but they can counter signal by having the so you look at the vagabond style of flares and hoodie, you know, even essentials, Yeezy, Ye's stuff. All it's almost like hobo chic. Why? Well, it's because I am so cool and so trendy that I can counter signal off the top.

所以每个人都在玩地位游戏。每个人每时每刻都在玩。只是看你玩的是什么游戏。

So everyone is playing a status game. Everybody is at all times. It's just a case of what game are you playing.

而那种有毒的驱动力，我人生中的重大转变是，我现在专注于一些也能驱使我走向更充实地方的事情。而以前，我专注于，比如，金钱游戏，我在想，我能赚多少钱？我能把生意做多大？现在我更专注于那些更内在与我让我快乐的事情相一致的事情。比如这个，或者写作，或者打碟，但它仍然存在。

And that toxic drive, the the big shift I've had in my life is I'm now focusing on something which is also driving me to a more fulfilling place. Whereas before, I was focusing on, like, a monetary game where I was like, how much money can I acquire? How much how big can I build a business? Now I'm focusing it more on things that are more intrinsically aligned with that which that makes me happy. So this, for example, or writing or DJing, for example, but it's still there.

所以我的问题给你，这里有两个问题，你在重新编程那种有毒驱动力或黑暗驱动力或那些不足感方面的旅程是怎样的？其次，你说我们可以重新编程它。我们可以稀释它，但这是以驱动力为代价的。是的。一个人如何做这样的事情？

So my question to you, there's kind of two questions there is, what's your journey been like with reprogramming that that toxic driving force or that dark driving force or that those feelings of insufficiency? And secondly, you said that we can reprogram it. We can dilute it, but it comes at the cost of drive. Yep. How does one do such such a thing?

所以对我个人而言，我缺失的是我没有感觉到自己在某些事情上是有能力的。我需要感觉到自己是有能力的，并且每次成功时我都在向世界证明一些东西。

So what I was missing for me personally was I didn't feel competent in things. I needed to feel like I was competent and I was proving something to the world each time that I succeeded.

你为什么只是感觉有能力？

Why did you just feel competent?

因为那样能解决我的不足感。每次我赢了，我们俱乐部之夜很成功，生意很好，在其他活动中打破了参赛记录等等，都会让我感觉，是的，哇，我好像没那么糟糕了。

Because that would solve my feelings of insufficiency. For every time that I won, we had a good club night, the business was good, we broke a record with entries at a different event or whatever, that would make me feel, yeah, wow, I'm, like, less of a piece of shit.

有没有什么时候让你觉得自己能力不足？

Was there a time where you were made to feel incompetent?

我觉得整个童年时期一直都有这种感觉，因为不太被接纳，总有一种隐约的感觉，觉得我有什么地方不对劲。一定有问题，因为如果没有问题，我就会有朋友。

I think just chronically through my childhood of not being super accepted, there was a ambient sense that something is broken with me. Something is wrong because if there wasn't something wrong, I would have friends.

好吧。

Okay.

人们会想要我。对吧？我觉得这是一个相对逻辑的'如果这样，那就那样'的推论。说到改变这一点，你最近节目嘉宾Alex Homosey有句很棒的话，他说：'你不是通过对着镜子大喊肯定语句而获得自信，而是通过积累一堆不可否认的证据证明你就是你所说的那个人。用努力超越自我怀疑。'

People would want me. Right? I think that was just a relatively logical if this, then that statement that came out of it. And when it comes to changing that, Alex Homosey, who you had on the show recently, has this great quote quote where he says, you don't become confident by shouting affirmations in the mirror, but by having a stack of undeniable proof that you are who you say you are. Outwork yourself doubt.

直到我有了一个项目，让我无法否认自己的努力正在结出果实，我在某件事上正变得有能力。那是压倒性的数量和无可辩驳的证据，将我的冒名顶替综合征彻底击碎。

And it wasn't until I had a project where I could no longer deny that my efforts were bearing fruits and that I was becoming competent at something. It was a crushing amount of volume and incontrovertible evidence that smashed my imposter syndrome into the ground

是吗？是啊是啊 那些游戏 那些游戏让你...因为现在你处于一个不同的

Did it? Yeah yeah Do the games do the games you because now you're in a different

完全不同的级别。不同的类别。对吧？但我觉得我应该在这里。我觉得我配得上在这里。

Different league. Category. Right? But I feel like I'm supposed to be here. I feel like I deserve to be here.

你知道，我的嘉宾们经常谈到脑海中那个声音，那个低语着自我怀疑的声音。在我看来，大约95%的人都没能完全摆脱这种声音。它总会在某些时候、某些场合再次出现。

You know, often my guests talk about, like, that voice in their head which whispers to them, you know, words of self doubt. And it seems to me, like, I'd say 95% of them haven't managed to shake that in some form. It still shows up at some time in some place.

它确实还在，但声音小了很多。小了很多。你必须逐渐接受这样一个事实：如果你在现实世界中不断证明自己的冒牌者综合征是错误的——每次面对挑战时，尽管你坚信自己会失败，或担心能力不足等等，但最终都成功了——那么久而久之，你就必须承认这与你的能力无关，而完全是你对'感觉自己像个冒牌货'这种感受的上瘾。你在自己的能力认知上出现了反向的错觉。

Well, it's still there, but it's a lot quieter. A lot quieter. And you have to accept after a while that if you continue to disprove your impostor syndrome in the real world, every single time that you're faced with a challenge, you succeed despite the fact that you were adamant that you were going to fail or you had fears of insufficiency or all the rest of it. After a while, you have to accept that it has nothing to do with your competence and everything to do with your addiction to feeling like an impostor. You are delusional about your competence in reverse.

每次面对挑战，你都成功了。每次面对未来的挑战，你都相信自己会失败。这根本与你的能力无关。所以罗根称之为'用一层层颜料堆砌成山'。对吧？

Every single time that you are faced with a challenge, you succeed. Every single time you are faced with a future challenge, you believe that you're going to fail. It's got nothing to do with your competence. So Rogan calls it, building a mountain with layers of paint. Right?

每一次都薄得不可思议。但经过600期节目，或无论多少百万美元的收入，你就会想，也许这确实有点东西。你知道吗？也许我并不...也许我不是个完全一无是处的废物。

Incredibly thin each time. But after 600 episodes or however many million dollars of revenue or whatever, you go, maybe there's something to this. You know? Maybe I don't maybe I'm not a totally worthless piece of shit.

关于这一点，谈到它如何削弱一个人的动力，随着你充足感的提升，你是否感觉到自己的动力有所减弱？

On that point of how it diminishes one's drive, have you seen a diminishment in your drive then as your feelings of sufficiency have improved?

没有。因为我已经将驱动力转变为了更符合我本质的东西。所以对我来说，好奇心是压倒一切的，我想了解一切，而我学习的欲望远比任何对能力不足的恐惧或对成功的渴望都要强烈得多。对吧？我只是用一种极其个人化、可扩展、可杠杆化、美好的驱动力，取代了那种有毒的驱动力。

No. Because I have changed what is driving me to something which is much more aligned with who I am. So the curiosity for me is crippling, and I want to know about everything, which the my desire to learn things is so much stronger than any fear of insufficiency or desire for success was ever going to be. Right? That I've just supplanted one toxic type of drive for one incredibly personal, very scalable, leverageable, beautiful kind of drive.

话虽如此，有时这个声音——我是说那个完美的我——还是会说话。那个负面声音每周会出现几次。它提醒我，也许我不该在这里。我不是我假装的那个人，但这个声音变得越来越小，越来越小。我觉得它变小是因为我有一堆不可否认的证据证明我理应在这里。

That being said, there are times this is I I'm speaking from, you know, the perfect version of me. That voice, that negative voice comes in a few times a week. It reminds me that I maybe I'm not supposed to be here. I'm not who I pretend to be, but it's getting quieter and quieter and quieter. I think it's getting quieter because I have a stack of undeniable proof that I'm supposed to be here.

你还记得上次那个声音出现是什么时候吗？

Do you remember the last time that voice came in?

是的，我想我昨晚告诉过你。我当时在录播客，我的血糖骤降，这让我明白在极度压力下，我们会退回到过去某个地方的声音。我不知道那是谁。不知道是生气的父母，还是对我不耐烦的老师，或者其他什么人。但这个声音出现了，它说：你不该在这里。

Yeah I think I told you about this last night. I was I was on a podcast and my blood sugar fell through the floor and what it showed me was that under times of extreme stress we revert back to a voice from somewhere in our past. I don't know who it was. I don't know whether it was a an angry parent or a teacher that was annoyed at me or whatever. But this voice came in and it said, not supposed to be here.

你从来就不该在这里。你很无聊。没人在意你要说什么。你知道你是个骗子。大家都会发现的。

You were never supposed to be here. You're boring. No one cares what you've got to say. You know that you're a fake. Everyone's going to find out.

所有人都在嘲笑你。没人喜欢你。我当时一边在节目上说话，一边脑子里全是这些东西在打转，我在想，这他妈的声音是从哪儿来的？那是谁？我以为我已经超越了这个声音。

Everybody's laughing at you. Nobody likes you. And I thought, as I'm talking away on this show and my head is spinning with all of this stuff, and I'm thinking, where the fuck has this voice come from? What like, who who is that? I thought that I transcended this voice.

然而，在高压情况下，当我感觉不好时，有些东西又回来了。所以我觉得它提醒我的是，总有一些工作要做。总有一些东西隐藏在背后，而对个人成长自满就会让这些东西重新渗透进来。

However, in a high pressure situation, when I felt bad, something came back through. So I think what it does remind me is that there is always work to be done. There's always something there that's hiding behind and that becoming, complacent about personal growth is something that is going to allow that to seep back in.

你谈到了那个油漆。对，就像建立信心的层层油漆。这一点我特别有感触，因为很多听这个播客的人都为信心问题而挣扎。正如你所说，外面有一个巨大的产业告诉人们：看着镜子，告诉自己你是百万富翁，说三遍，写在日记里。是的。

You talked about the the paint Yep. The, like, the layers of paint that build confidence. This is something that I've been particularly compelled by because so many people that listen to this podcast struggle with the idea of confidence. And there's a big industry out there, as you've said, that says, you know, look in the mirror, tell yourself you're a millionaire, say it three times, write it in your journal. Yeah.

但正如我在书中反思的那样，这与亚历克斯·霍莫西所说的相关，我学到的是：无论好坏，这一切都是证据。

But then as I reflected in, as I've written in my my book, the thing that and it relates to what Alex Homosey said is, the thing that I've learned is it's all evidence for better or for worse.

一堆不可否认的证据。

Stack of undeniable proof.

而且反过来也一样。你七岁时上台尝试公开演讲，结果所有人都嘲笑你的那个证据

And it goes the other way. That evidence that you got at seven years old when you went up and tried to do a public speech and everyone laughed at

是的。

you Yep.

它更……是一层更厚的证据。没错。比证明你有能力的那一层证据更厚重。是更难剥离的一层。如果现在有听众想要将自己的动力导向你所说的那些充实的追求，同时也想建立自信，你会给他们什么建议？我猜这大概是80%听众的情况。

Is more it's a thicker layer Correct. Than than one layer of evidence to say that you're you're capable. It's a harder layer to sort of strip. If there is someone listening now and they want to maybe orientate their drive to the fulfilling pursuits that you talk about, but also they wanna build their confidence, what advice would you give them? I imagine that's 80% of the listener base here.

先行动。好吧。你必须以行动为先，因为如果你是一个深受不足感困扰的人，你否定脑海中任何积极想法的能力会非常强大。如果你试图先以积极思考为主导——我需要想着它、渴望它、相信它，然后我就能实现它——你那固有的消极心态会将其彻底击碎。

Act first. Okay. You have to lead with action because if you are someone that deals with a crippling sense of insufficiency, your ability to discount any good thoughts you have in your mind is going to be so strong. If you try and lead with positivity first, I need to think it, wish it, believe it, and I will achieve it. Your set point of negativity is going to just crush that into the ground.

我是根据个人经验说的，对吧，作为一个曾经长期缺乏自信、至今仍不时受冒名顶替综合征困扰的人。你必须从行动开始。应该是这样：一周之后，需要发生什么，我回顾那一周时才会为自己感到骄傲？骄傲常被视为一种应该感到羞耻的东西。

I'm speaking from personal experience, right, as the guy that was chronically unconfident and still has, you know, the impostor syndrome that does creep in. You have to start with action. It needs to be, okay. What would have had to have happened in a week's time for me to look back on that week and find pride in myself? Pride's seen as, something that you, should be ashamed of.

这是七宗罪之一。但大卫·戈金斯，我几个月前和他做过一期节目。如果大家感兴趣，我们可以把它放在节目说明里。他说骄傲是每个人都会忽略的东西，为自己的名字、表现、为他人展现的方式感到骄傲是你可以做到的，但你需要做一些值得骄傲的事情。对吧？

It's one of the seven deadly sins. But David Goggins, I did an episode with him a couple of months ago. We can put it in the in the show notes if people are interested. And he said pride is something that everybody misses, that having pride in your name, your performance, the way that you show up for other people is something that you can do but you need to do something that is worthy of being prideful about. Right?

一周内需要发生什么，你才会自豪地回顾那一周？好吧。也许停止对自己食言。当你说我明天早上7点要起床，当出现按下贪睡按钮的选项时，不要这样做。这是你一天中的一次胜利。

What would have had to have happened in a week for you to look back on that week with pride? Okay. Maybe stop breaking promises to yourself. When you say, I'm going to wake up tomorrow at 7AM and when the option comes to hit the snooze button, don't do it. There's one win that you've got for the day.

那就是行动。对吧？而且，你知道，说彼得森的'打扫你的房间'这种话很老套。但这之所以有效，是因为你从最小的步骤开始，然后从中扩展出去。你想成为一名作家。

That's action. Right? And it is just, you know, it's trite to say the Peterson clean your room thing. But the reason that that works is that you start with the smallest ever step and you expand out from that. You want to become a writer.

你想辞掉工作成为一名作家。好吧。你能承诺在接下来的三周里，每周在Substack上写一篇博客文章吗？如果你做到了，这会让你感觉不那么像个失败者。如果你是那种长期缺乏自信的人，行动必须先行，因为你会拖着自己的身份感前进。

You want to leave your job and become a writer. Okay. Can you commit to writing one blog post on Substack per week for the next three weeks? That would make you feel like less of a loser if you did that. Action has to come first if you're the sort of person who is chronically unconfident because you will drag your sense of identity behind you.

马克·曼森说，身份认同比我们的地位滞后大约一到两年。所以对于我和你来说，两年后，我们会说，哦，我明白为什么那天我在洛杉矶了，然后回顾过去。从行动开始，对自己做出小承诺并且不违背。如果你有一个朋友，每次你们决定一起出去吃晚饭时，那个朋友要么迟到两小时，要么根本不来，你就会不再信任那个人。这就是你与自己之间的关系。

Mark Manson says that identity lags behind our status by about one to two years. So for both me and you, in two years' time, we'll go, oh, I understand why I was in LA that day and and and look back. Start with action and make small promises to yourself that you don't break. If you had a friend and every single time that you and your friend decided that you're gonna go out for dinner, that friend either showed up two hours late or didn't show up at all, you would stop trusting that person. That is the relationship that you have with yourself.

你需要能够信任自己的话。而我们很多人做不到，因为生活很方便，人们很容易不遵守自己设定的承诺，因为我们理想主义的能力总是会超过现实实现这些理想的能力。一旦你设定了一个理想，你就会开始将自己与那个理想进行比较，而真正的地狱是当现在的你遇见了本可以成为的你。

You need to be able to trust your own word. And a lot of us don't because life is very convenient and it is easy for people to not stick to the promises that they set themselves because our ability to be idealistic is always going to outstrip reality's ability to deliver that to us. Soon as you posit an ideal, you then begin to compare yourself to that ideal, and true hell is when the person that you are meets the person that you could have been.

有时我会思考，你可能在自己的生活中也见过这种情况。我相信你有过。你生活中会有这样一个朋友。我在老家有几个朋友，我曾试图以某种方式帮助他们，也许在他们最困难的时候给出一些建议，但这些建议并没有效果。然后你还有另一个朋友，只需要一个想法就能改变。

Sometimes I ponder how you've probably seen this in your own life. I'm sure you have. Where you you'll have a friend in your life. I've got a friend couple of friends back home who I've tried to help in some way, maybe give some advice when they're struggling in their hardest times, and the advice has been ineffective. And then you've got another friend who will just need one idea.

他们会收听你的播客，而其中一个想法将成为改变他们人生的种子。我经常觉得我高估了语言的力量，因为你刚才说的每一点都很有道理。嗯。但我们都知道，95%甚至更多的人在接收到这些信息后，并不会转化为任何实际行动。

They'll be listening to your podcast, and one idea will be the seed that changes their life. I often, like, think that I over overestimate the power of words because everything you've said there makes perfect sense. Mhmm. But we both know that ninety five percent, maybe more of people that have just received that, it will not convert into any kind of behavior.

习惯很难打破，兄弟，而不做事的习惯更是难以克服。这是所有收听你节目或我节目的听众共同面临的问题。你们会沉迷于思考本身，对吧？你们会喜欢这种想法：我可以用认知能力直接解决问题。

Habits are hard to break, man, and the habit of not doing things is unbelievably difficult to get past. It's one of the problems with anyone that listens to your show or my show. You will love being cerebral. Right? You will love the idea that I can use cognitive horsepower to just get myself out of problems.

这就出现了把学习当作自慰的情况。对吧？认为学习某件事就等于实践它，但事实并非如此。所以必须行动先行。我有个朋友在思考某个概念时总爱问：这能种出玉米吗？

And there is a case of learning as masturbation. Right? And believing that learning about something is the same as enacting it, and it's not. That's why it has to be action first. A quote from one of my friends that he uses when he's thinking about a concept is, does this grow corn?

说白了就是：这有用吗？告诉我怎么用在生活中。这他妈能种出玉米吗？对吧？这个概念听起来很美妙，这个认知偏差能帮我理解大脑运作方式以及我与他人的关系。

Basically, is it useful? Tell me how I can use this in my life. Does it grow fucking corn? Right? It's this beautifully, beautiful sounding concept, cognitive bias that helps me understand the way that my brain works and my relationship with everybody else.

但我该怎么用在生活中？给我一些具体的应用场景。所以关于自信的培养，要选择那些你永远不会对自己食言的承诺。比如：接下来一个月我要准时起床，绝不按贪睡按钮。

How do I use that in my life? Give me something to apply it to. And that's why with the confidence thing, choose promises that you will never break to yourself. I'm going to get up on time for the next month. I'm not going to hit the snooze button.

如果你做到了，一个月后回头看会发现：天啊，这可能是我有生以来第一次坚持这么久。这就是重大胜利。你可以用詹姆斯·克利尔的方法，写在板子上追踪记录，毕竟有测量才有管理等等。但最重要的是信守对自己的承诺。从'我学到了关于呼吸法、冷水浴、健身、断食到中午、准时起床、目光接触阳光等等想做的事'的认知，转化为具体的承诺。

If you do that and you look back in a month and you go, oh my god, that's the first time I've done that in forever maybe. That's a big win. And you can do the James Clear thing, we'll write it on a board, we'll track it, what gets like measured etcetera etcetera. But the main thing is just keep promises to yourself. And that is a good way to go from here is an insight I learned about I want to do breath work, cold plunge, go to the gym, fast until twelve midday, get up on time, sunlight in the eyes and the whatever it is, right, that you wanna do, turn it into a promise.

不要违背承诺。

Don't break the promise.

你刚才说的一个非常重要的事情是关于第一步的大小。我在想，电子游戏的设计方式就是确保每个后续关卡既不会太难让你失去动力，也不会太简单同样让你失去动力。两种情况都会让你失去动力。填字游戏和电子游戏也是如此。它们会逐渐增加难度来保持你的参与度。

One of the really important things you said there was about the size of that first step. I I was reflecting there on the way that video games are designed to make sure that every subsequent level is not too intimidating that you lose motivation, but it's not too too small that you lose motivation as well. You can lose motivation on both ways. And so it's the same with crosswords and video games. They get incrementally more challenging to keep you engaged.

我认为第一步的大小是一个核心点，因为当人们听像你我或Andrew Huberman这样的播客时，他们听到可能需要在这个时间起床，出门，凝视大地，比如把脚踩在地上，冷水浴，等等等等。然后我说，我要这么做。我把这设为我的第一步。是的，我注定要失败。没错。

The size of that first step is is, I think, a central point there because when people listen to podcasts with people like me and you or Andrew Huberman and they hear that they've gotta maybe get up at this time, go outside, gaze, earth, like, put their feet on the ground, cold plunge, da da da da, And I go, I'm gonna do that. And I set that as my first step. Yeah. I'm set up for failure. Yep.

你认为这个第一步的大小——以及你主观感受到的大小——对于建立自我信任和开始培养纪律有多重要？

How important do you think the size and and the subjective size of that small that first step you take to build trust with yourself is and to start that discipline.

目标不是明天就拥有完美的日常习惯。目标是五十年后你仍然在坚持你的日常习惯。如果你把时间跨度拉得足够长，你会意识到非常非常微小的步骤也能产生复利效应。看看我或你的Spotify粉丝增长图，尤其是我的。对吧？

The goal isn't to have the perfect daily routine tomorrow. The goal is to still be winning your daily routine in fifty years' time. If you expand your time horizon sufficiently, you will realize that very, very tiny steps can compound. Look at the graph of mine or your followers on Spotify, especially mine. Right?

因为我做节目做了那么久，一开始就是什么都没有，什么都没有，什么都没有，然后突然爆发。为什么？因为这是潜在的杠杆效应。需要很多层油漆才能达到那个效果。所以，是的，第一步必须非常小。

Because I was doing my show for so long and it's just nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing, everything. Well, why? Well, it's because it's latent leverage. It takes so many layers of paint to get there. So, yes, the first step has to be incredibly small.

就这么做。让它小到你无法拒绝。然后下一步是什么？再下一步呢？所以当我决定要尝试成为更有美德的自己时，我打算开始说实话。

Do that. Make it so small that you can't say no to it. And then what's next? And then what's next? So when I decided that I was going to try and become a more virtuous version of me, I was gonna start telling the truth.

我打算养成晨间习惯。我打算培养冥想习惯。我打算阅读。所有这些我想做的事情，在我二十多岁末期时，我一件都没做到。一件都没做到。

I was going to, have a morning routine. I was going to develop a meditation habit. I was going to read. All of these things that I wanted to do, none of which I did, right, toward the end of my twenties. None of which I did.

所有这些现在都成为了我生活的基石。在经历了大约1500次冥想训练、播客中的所有作者以及各种其他事情之后，我不得不一步一步地来。直到新冠疫情之前，我在成年生活中从未有过稳定的睡眠和起床规律。因为我在经营夜生活活动，直到疫情前我从未连续七天在同一时间睡觉和起床。

All of which are now the foundation of of my life. Over, I don't know, 1,500 meditation sessions and all of the authors on the podcast and etcetera, etcetera. I had to do that one step at a time. I didn't have a stable sleep and wake pattern until COVID ever in my adult life. I'd never gone to bed and woken up at the same time for seven days in a row until COVID because I was running nightlife events.

对吧？所以无论挫折有多困难，即使你是轮班工作者、护士、父母，无论你面临什么挑战，只需对自己做出的承诺足够小，即使面对这些挑战，你也能

Right? So if no matter how difficult the setback is, even if you're a shift worker, you're a nurse, you're a parent, whatever your challenge is, just make the promise to yourself sufficiently small that even with that challenge in front of you, you can

让它奏效。我听到了，我和很多人一样受到激励，因为这就是现实，就像那句老话说的，动力来了，然后它慢慢冲刷我们，又慢慢开始消退。当我听到克里斯·威廉姆斯和史蒂夫谈论这个话题后，在三天半后的早晨醒来，生活发生了变故，孩子在尖叫，我的动力似乎消失了，我该如何准备或应该怎样为那一天做准备？

make it work. I hear that, and I'm motivated as a lot of people will be because that's what happens, you know, like a shower, as the cliche goes, motivation comes and then it slowly it slowly washes over us and slowly starts to fade. How do I prepare or how should I be preparing for the day where I've heard Chris Williams and Steve speaking about this, and then in three and a half days time, I wake up in the morning, life has happened, the kid's screaming, my motivation seems to have escaped me.

嗯。

Mhmm.

在那一天，自律与我从这次对话中获得的动力和灵感之间的区别是什么，我该怎么做？

The distinction between discipline on that day and the motivation I got from the source and that came from the inspiration of this conversation, what do I do?

自律把动力当早餐吃。对吧？你不需要动力。如果它来了当然很好，就像是火上浇油，但自律才是你真正需要的东西。

Discipline eats motivation for breakfast. Right? You don't need motivation. It's great if it arrives. It's some extra fuel on the fire, but discipline is the thing that you need.

明天的你会希望今天的你做什么？明天的你会希望你遵守对自己的承诺，这就是为什么自律如此宝贵。我记得六年前乔克·威林克和萨姆·哈里斯之间的对话，他们谈到你无法假装勇敢，因为如果你在害怕做某件事的情况下仍然去做了，那就是勇敢。对吧？不存在所谓的假勇敢。

What would you tomorrow want you today to do? You tomorrow would want you to keep that promise to yourself, and it's why discipline is so much more valuable. I remember this conversation between, Jocker Willink and Sam Harris six years And they're talking about how you can't fake bravery because if you do a thing in spite of being scared of doing the thing, that is bravery. Right? There's no such thing as fake bravery.

就像，如果你做了某件事并且感到害怕，那才是勇敢。如果你没做某件事并且不害怕，那就不算勇敢。对吧？自律也是同样的道理。尽管不想做但还是做了，这就是自律。

Like, you just if you do the thing and you're scared, that's bravery. If you don't do the thing and you weren't scared, that's not bravery. Right? The same thing goes for discipline. Doing the thing in spite of not wanting to do the thing is discipline.

对吧？你不需要动力来让自己起身去做某件事。把承诺定得小一点。一步一步建立起来。要知道你肯定会遇到挫折。

Right? You don't need motivation to get yourself up to go and do a thing. Make the promise small. Build it up step by step. Know that you are going to have setbacks.

这是我从詹姆斯·克利尔那里学到的最喜欢的规则：习惯中断一次是失误，中断两次就是新习惯的开始。永远不要连续中断两天。所以理想情况下，坚持一个月，逐步建立起来。但之后如果你某天中断了，没关系。

And this is my favorite rule from James Clear, which is a habit missed once is a mistake. A habit missed twice is the start of a new habit. Never miss two days in a row. So, ideally, go for a month, build it up. But after that, if you ever miss one day, go, okay.

错误难免会发生。明天我会加倍努力。明天我会准时，做到完美。我会直接起床，或者去健身房，或者遛狗，或者冥想等等。这是一个很好的启发式方法。

That's mistakes are gonna happen. Tomorrow, I double down. Tomorrow, I go on time, absolutely perfect. I'm straight up out of bed, or I go to the gym, or I walk the dog, or I do my meditation or whatever. And that's a good heuristic.

防止错误像滚雪球一样变成新习惯。

Stops errors snowballing into new habits.

那如果我到了第三天呢？按照詹姆斯·克利尔的定义，这就是新习惯的开始。我难道不能像第一天中断时那样应用同样的思路吗？

What about if I get to day three? It's then, in James Claire's definition, the start of a new habit. Do I not just apply the same thinking that I do when I missed it on day one?

你只需要...我的意思是，如果你从不连续中断两天，你就不应该会走到第三天。

You just need to well, I mean, if you don't ever miss two days, you shouldn't be able to get to day three.

但如果我确实这样呢？我是说，想想我自己的健身历程。我已经坚持锻炼三年了。

What if I do, though? I mean, I think about my own fitness journey. I've been working out for the last three years.

嗯。

Mhmm.

总会有那么一周动力全无。然后可能连续好几周都这样。所以有时候我会连续两周都强迫自己去健身房。嗯。但我的训练效果简直糟糕透顶，还不如不去。

And there will be a week where motivation is gone. And then there'll be multiple weeks. So there'll be sometimes it'll be two weeks in a row where I'm, like, taking my ass to the gym Mhmm. But the my workout is absolutely atrocious. I might as well have not gone.

我这样做是为了保持行为惯性。没错。即使缺乏动力也要坚持。

And I do that because I'm trying to continue the behavior Correct. In spite of the motivation.

但这并不会降低你作为一个人的价值。明白吗？你做这件事是因为你认为它对你有益，因为你相信它对你有益，因为你在乎自己。你在乎史蒂文和他的身体与心智。你希望他拥有长久健康的人生，也希望所有听众都能如此。

Well, it doesn't change your worth as a person. You know? You you want to do this because you think that it's good for you, because you believe that it's good for you, because you care about yourself. You care about Steven and his body and his mind. You want him to have a long and healthy life, and the same for everybody else that's listening.

大家都希望生活中的努力能换来好结果。你不需要因为没做到某件本该让你感觉良好的事而苛责自己。好吧。比如你连续三天没锻炼，那我们重新开始就好。

They want to have good outcomes from the things that they do in life. You don't need to lambast yourself because you don't do a thing that is perfectly designed to make you feel good. Okay. Like, you missed three days in a row. We get back on the horse.

我们继续努力。这就是自律。

We go again. Discipline.

你刚才谈到了你生活的基础以及你想建立的其他事情。你提到了冥想这类事情。当我想到那个经营俱乐部之夜、参加《爱情岛》和《带我出去》节目的克里斯·威廉姆斯，和现在坐在我面前的这个人时，如果有几个关键的基础工具或方法把你从那里带到了现在坐在我面前的这个人，那么，这些是什么呢？我这么说是因为，你知道，当人们在这个播客上给建议时，有时在书里等等，他们会说他们认为应该说的话，但你永远得不到真正的东西。他们会说，哦，冥想。

You talked a second ago about the fundamentals of your life and other things you wanted to put in place. You referenced meditation and these kinds of things. When I think about the the Chris Williams that was running those club nights was on Love Island, take me out, and the guy that sat in front of me now, if there were a couple of key fundamental tools or devices that have taken you from there to the guy sat in front of me here, and, you know, what are what are those what are those things? And I say this because, you know, when people give advice on this podcast sometimes when in books and stuff, they'll talk to things they think they're supposed to say, but you never really get the true stuff. They'll say, oh, meditation.

我以前听过这个。我在想，对克里斯·威廉姆斯来说，是什么把你从那里带到了现在坐在我面前的克里斯·威廉姆斯？

I've heard that before. I'm like, for Chris Williams, what what took you from from there to the Chris Williams in Saturn front to be now?

每天按时起床。

Getting up on time every day.

每天？每天。那对你来说什么是按时？

Every day? Every day. And what's what's on time for you?

七点到七点半，取决于我几点睡觉。所以每晚都会变化。但我会设闹钟，并且按时起床。每天大约在同一时间睡觉和起床。这会有巨大的不同。

Seven seven to 07:30 depending on what time I went to bed. So it'll change each night. But I'll set an alarm, and I will get up on time. Go to bed and wake up at around about the same time each day. Makes a massive difference.

早上第一件事就是去散步。所以在看屏幕之前先接触阳光，这是我在胡贝尔曼谈到杏仁核反应下调以及侧向眼动有助于大脑等等之前就在做的事情。我这么做是因为我想多散步。我想尽可能多走几步。起床就去散步，因为太多人一醒来就停下来了，因为他们用手机当闹钟。

Go for a morning walk first thing. So sunlight before screen light was something that I was doing before Huberman talked about the downregulation of the amygdala response and the lateral eye movement helps blah blah blah in the brain. I came upon this because I wanted to go for a walk more. I wanted to get as many steps in as I could. Get up and go for a walk because it just so many people are stopped the second they wake up because they use their phone as their alarm.

他们翻身，按掉手机上的闹钟，现在手机就在手里了。然后他们在床上躺半小时，循环浏览所有的社交媒体应用。把手机放在卧室外面睡觉。这是我做出的第一个改变。手机放在卧室外面，我买了——收音机闹钟已经存在多久了？

They roll over, they hit the alarm on their phone, and now their phone's in their hand. And now they're in bed for half an hour doing the cycle through all of their social media apps. Sleep with your phone outside of your bedroom. That was the number one change that I made. Phone is outside of the bedroom and I bought how long have radio alarms been around?

一百万年。对吧？比如，随便找个闹钟。醒来。在用手机之前先去散个步。

A million years. Right? Like, just get any kind of alarm clock. Wake up. Go for a walk before you use your phone.

这会改变人们遇到的许多问题，因为我认为对科技的上瘾是许多人日常挑战的主要根源。冥想对我来说很有趣。它确实帮助我变得更平静、更平和。它不是什么疯狂的性能增强器。呼吸练习也是，我真的很喜欢做。它不是什么疯狂的性能增强器。

That will change so many of the problems that people encounter because it it the addiction to technology is primary I think to a lot of people's challenges in their day Meditation has been interesting for me. It's definitely helped me to be calmer, to be more peaceful. It's not an insane performance enhancer. The breath work as well, I really enjoy doing that. It's not an insane performance enhancer.

阅读，我会说是某种形式的内容吸收，可以来自阅读文章、读书、听播客、听有声书，任何能推动你理解的东西都非常重要。对我来说，这个习惯一直在变化。以前是读书，现在更多是在我的Kindle上读Substack文章。很长一段时间以来，一直是播客。

Reading, I would say some form of content absorption that could come from reading articles, reading books, listening to podcasts, listening to audiobooks, something that pushes your understanding is very important. And for me, that's moved. It was books a while ago. Now it's more Substack articles that I read on my Kindle. For a long time, it's always been podcasts.

有时是有声书。有时不是。

Sometimes it's audiobooks. Sometimes it's not.

那内容创作呢，硬币的另一面，以及创作的义务？这对你的生活有什么影响？

What about content creation, the other side of that coin, and the obligation to create? What impact does that have on your life?

它意味着一切，因为必须谈论我学到的东西，这迫使我真正去学习它们。对吧？直到你能向别人解释某件事，你才算真正理解它。所以，好吧，通过告诉我来证明你理解了它。嗯，我做不到。

It's everything because by having to talk about the things that I learn, it forces me to learn them. Right? Until you can explain something to somebody else, you don't really understand it. So, okay, prove to me that you understand it by telling me about it. Well, I can't.

好吧。那你就不理解它。所以这就是我建议人们应该每周和朋友进行一次三十分钟的模拟播客的原因之一。手机放在房间外面。把一部手机屏幕朝下放在桌子上。

Okay. Well, you don't understand it then. So this is one of the reasons I suggest to people that they should do a a fake podcast with a friend, for thirty minutes every week. Phones are outside of the room. Put one phone face down on the table.

按下录制按钮，开始对话，假装有人在观看。欢迎回到节目。史蒂文，今天我们要讨论UFC或者汤米·富里和杰克·保罗。你认为谁会赢？这迫使你对自己相信的事物保持严谨、精确和一致。

Press the record button and just have a conversation and pretend that people are watching. Welcome back to the show. Steven, today, we're going to talk about the UFC or Tommy Fury and Jake Paul. Who do you think is gonna win? And it forces you to be rigorous and precise and consistent with the things that you believe.

这是一种强制机制，能整合你正在做的事情。其他人可能更喜欢写作或绘画。为观众创作的一个优势在于，你会感觉有人在监督你。对吧？如果只是‘我每周画一幅画自娱自乐’，而不是‘我每周画一幅画并发布到Instagram上’或‘我要写一篇Substack文章’。

And it is a forcing function that synthesizes the things that you're doing. Other people might prefer to write or draw. One of the advantages of doing it for an audience is that you actually feel like someone's keeping you accountable. Right? If it's just, I'm gonna draw a drawing every week for my own pleasure as opposed to I'm gonna draw a drawing every week and post it on my Instagram or I'm gonna write a Substack article.

我的节目有固定的发布节奏：周一、周四、周六。如果不是因为我知道如果不在这些日子发布，观众会说‘等一下，伙计，今天是周一，播客节目在哪里？’，我的动力会小得多。

I mean, I have a a posting cadence on the show Monday, Thursday, Saturday. And if it wasn't for the fact that I know if I don't post on those days, the audience is gonna be like, hang on a second, mate. Like, it's Monday. Where's the where's the podcast episode? It would be a lot less motivating for me to do it.

正是这一点驱动着我。所以我认为，创作某种内容——无论是为了自己还是为了发布到世界上并建立平台——绝对是一个好的开始。

I'm driven by that. So I think that absolutely creating some kind of content, whether it be just for you or whether it be to put out into the world and to build a platform with is a a good start.

回顾过去，我认为从内容创作中获得的最重要的东西实际上是磨练了我的销售技巧，因为在这种媒介中，你被迫尽可能简洁地表达想法，并以吸引人的方式说出来。我反思过去十年左右制作内容、录制视频的经历，发现它对我的业务、推销和销售能力产生了巨大影响。即使你是一个想在酒吧搭讪别人的人，无论男女，这种以视频形式创作内容的义务对我生活的方方面面都产生了深远影响。我觉得既有内省的动力，又有创作的义务，这改变了我的人生。

The most important thing I think in hindsight that I've gained from content creation is in fact, like, honing my skill of sales because you're forced in this medium to make your ideas as concise as you possibly can and say them in a way which is engaging. And I've reflect over the last ten years or so of making content and recording videos and go, man, the impact it's had on my business, my ability to pitch and sell. But even if you're a guy and you're looking to pick someone up in a bar, man or woman, it's profound to me the impact that the obligation to create content specifically on video in in in speaking form has had on all facets of my life. And I just don't feel like there's enough of a charge to both introspect but then the obligation to create. I think it's life changing.

维特根斯坦——路德维希·维特根斯坦——有一句有趣的名言，他说：‘我的语言的界限意味着我的世界的界限。’所以你可以看到，更丰富的词汇意味着更丰富的生活。如果你意识到头脑中的想法是那些模糊、短暂的概念，就像一种气味。对吧？想法有点像气味。

There's a a interesting quote from Wittgenstein, Ludwig Wittgenstein, and he says, the limits of my language mean the limits of my world. So you could see a richer vocabulary means a richer life. If you take the fact that you have ideas in your head that these sort of wishy washy ephemeral notion, it's like a smell. Right? An idea is kind of like a smell.

它只是一个无定形的 blob。你会说‘哦，是的，我感觉是这样。我感觉这是一个想法。’直到你通过口语、文字或绘画让它具象化，它才真正存在。它不是有形的。

It's just an amorphous blob of a thing. And you go, oh, yeah, I feel like this. I feel like this is an idea. Until you make it take form through spoken word, written word, or drawing, it doesn't really exist. It's not tangible.

你看不到它。你无法弄清楚这个想法中存在哪些漏洞。这意味着，首先，你掌握的词汇越多，你就能越精确地描述你脑海中的事物。你越能顺畅地将想法从大脑传递到嘴巴、指尖、铅笔末端，你就越能准确地将其表达出来，这意味着当你需要审视、评估和观察它时，你会惊呼，天啊。我以为我对这件事了如指掌，但这里却有一个巨大的漏洞。

You can't see it. You can't work out where the holes are in whatever this idea is. So what that means is that, first off, the more words that you have in your arsenal, the more precisely you can describe the thing which is in your head. The more frictionlessly you can take ideas from your brain to your mouth, your fingertips, the end of a pencil, the more accurately you're going to be able to put that out into the world, which means that when you need to turn it over and assess it and look at it, you go, oh my god. I thought that I knew this inside out and there's this big gaping hole here.

我需要弄清楚发生了什么，这就是为什么孤独流行病、世界上朋友数量急剧下降的现象并不特别好，因为这不仅对社区和社会凝聚力不利，对个人的成长也不利。如果你想完全学会某件事，你需要花时间综合你的想法，而你真正能做到这一点的对象往往只能是别人。再次强调，你可以为自己写日记，但永远不会像为观众写作那样有纪律性或一致性，即使观众只有五个人或只是你的朋友。

I need to work out what's going on, which is why a loneliness epidemic, the massive falling rates of friendlessness in the world aren't particularly good because not only is it bad for the community and for social cohesion but it's bad for the individual's personal growth as well If you want to fully learn something, you want to spend time synthesising your ideas, and you can really only ever do that for somebody else. Again, you can write the journal to you, for you, but it's never gonna be as disciplined or as consistent as if you're writing it for an audience, even if the audience is only five people or only your friends.

你谈到了一点，因为你年轻时在社交圈之外，你能够，我想是间接地，看到小事产生的影响，这让你在社交上变得敏锐。接着谈到孤独流行病。它算是一种流行病吗？情况有多严重？你是否认为社会应该更多地关注这个问题？

And you spoke to something, which is because you were outside of the social circle when you were young, you were able to, I guess, vicariously see the impact that small things had, which made you kind of socially attuned. Talking then about the loneliness epidemic. Is it an is it an epidemic? How bad is it? Is it something that you believe society should be paying more attention to?

前几天我和西蒙·斯涅克坐在这里，他向我透露，他目前正在经历一场真正的孤独挣扎，这有点令人惊讶。之所以有点令人惊讶，是因为，再次以一种非常天真的方式来看，西蒙·斯涅克是一个非常成功的人。他拥有大多数人梦寐以求的事业。他是一个备受钦佩的人。他登上舞台，成千上万的人呼喊他的名字。

I sat here with Simon Sinek the other day, and he disclosed to me that he was going through a real struggle with loneliness at the moment, and it was somewhat surprising. It was somewhat surprising because, again, in a very naive way, Simon Sinek is someone of great success. He's got a career most people would would die for. He's a man of you know, that's greatly admired. He goes on stages and thousands of people roar his name.

但在个人层面上，他很孤独。他对我说的其中一件事是，独处和孤独之间存在着真正的区别。你能看出这两者之间的区别吗？

But then on a personal level, he's lonely. And one of the things he said to me was, there's a real difference between being alone and being lonely. Do you can you see the distinction between the two?

是的。我的意思是，独处是我们许多人都享受的事情。我知道你和我都喜欢。嗯。对吧？

Yeah. I mean, solitude is something that many of us enjoy. I know that me and you both enjoy it. Mhmm. Right?

孤独则不是。我以前写过——我手机里存着一本旧日记，里面有几句我二十五六岁时的记录，上面就写着：我觉得我很孤独。是的。因为我就是……我搞不清楚是怎么回事。我有种感觉，可能有点不对劲。

Loneliness isn't. I used to write I've got, in a journal that I used to keep in my phone a couple of different entries from my mid twenties and it just put I think I'm lonely. Yeah. Because I just I I I couldn't work out what was going on. I had a sense that it was maybe something that was a little bit wrong.

我觉得我很孤独。说到孤独流行病，1990年时，声称拥有六个或更多亲密朋友的男性比例大约是55%。到2020年，这个数字下降到了21%。连一半都不到，对吧？

I think I'm lonely. When it comes to the loneliness epidemic, in 1990, the number of men who said that they had six or more close friends was around about fifty five percent. In 2020, that dropped to twenty one percent. It's less than half. Right?

21%的男性表示他们拥有的亲密朋友少于六个。声称完全没有亲密朋友的男性数量自1990年以来增加了五倍，现在达到了15%。15%的男性说他们一个亲密朋友都没有。我不知道女性的统计数据。看起来女性似乎比男性更能有效地维持社交圈子。

Twenty one percent of men say that they have less than six close friends. The number of men who say that they have zero close friends has increased by fivefold from 1990, and it's now at fifteen percent. Fifteen percent of men say that they have zero close friends. I don't know the stats for women. It seems like women are able to hold on to social groups a little bit more effectively than men are.

孤独流行病似乎确实对男性的打击更大一些。

The loneliness epidemic does seem to be hitting men a little bit more hard.

你的日记记录让我很有感触。在我们深入探讨数据和因果关系之前，你在二十多岁时的日记中写道：我觉得我很孤独。

I'm compelled by your diary entry. Before we get into the stats and the cause causation, you wrote in your diary in your mid twenties, I think I'm lonely.

是的。

Yep.

这很有趣，因为我回想自己20到25岁的早期二十多岁时光，我当时肯定很孤独，但直到后来才意识到。

It's funny because I I reflect on my early twenties between 20 and 25, and I was definitely lonely but had no idea until later.

直到后来我才意识到那就是为什么我只觉得自己孤独。你知道吗？我当时就想，这是什么感觉？我们刚才在说什么？这是一种概念。

Until I was like That was why I only thought that I was lonely. You know? I was like, what is it? What were we just saying? It's a notion.

这是一种气味。有人在另一个房间喊了出来。操蛋，那是什么？你觉得我很孤独吗？

It's a smell. Someone shouted it from the other room. Fucking what is that? Do you think I'm lonely?

没人描述过它。我没有对它的描述。所以我内心有这种与生俱来的感觉，但之前没有人给它命名，也没有人告诉我孤独者的'工作描述'是什么样的。所以它就像一个信号，感觉不对劲，但我不知道是什么。是的。

No one's described it. I didn't have a description of it. So I had this sort of innate this feeling inside my being, but no one had put a word to it before or told me what the, like, job description of someone that's lonely looks like. So it was a signal, like, something's not right, but I don't know what it is. Yep.

只有当我不再孤独，当我感受到真正的连接时，我才明白自己缺失了什么。

And I only learned when I was not lonely, when I felt a real sense of connection, what I was missing.

哦，该死。生活不应该是这样的。

Oh, shit. That's not what life's supposed to be like.

是的。那么跟我说说你吧。是什么因素共同作用让你陷入了孤独的境地？

Yeah. So tell me about you. What what had caused the what factors had come together to put you in a situation where you were lonely?

我这辈子遇到过大约一百万人，但只有寥寥几个朋友。这让我觉得我的交友转化率似乎有问题。这里肯定有什么不对劲。这很大程度上是因为我在扮演一个角色——校园里的风云人物，'派对男孩'。

I've met about a million people in my life, and I only had a handful of friends. That made me think my exposure to friend conversion seems to be off. There is something not right here. And this was largely due to the fact that I was playing a role. It's this big name on campus, Party Boy.

很合理的是，当我不做真实的自己时，我能与谁产生共鸣呢？他们最多只会和我认为他们希望我成为的那个投影做朋友，对吧？所以这几乎完全是我自己的问题。但另一方面，我在行业里也有些挣扎，无法与人深入探讨人性、存在的痛苦或是威尔·斯托尔新书中的身份议题——当有人拼命想从我这儿搞到VIP手环，只为下楼去看辣妹的时候。

And quite rightly, who was I going to resonate with when I wasn't being me? They were going to, at best, become friends with a projection of what I thought they wanted me to be. Right? So this was almost exclusively on myself. But, also, I was struggling a little bit in the industry to find, the I I can't have a conversation about, like, the deeper sense of human nature or the existential pain of being alive or status from Will Stord, his brand new book, when someone's desperately trying to get a VIP wristband off me so that they can go and see the hot girls downstairs.

就是说，这环境不太适合那样做。但再次强调，这很大程度上是因为我不够自信，不确定别人会对我的兴趣感兴趣。是的，我的意思是，你可以拥有世界上所有的成功，被众人环绕，却依然在人群中感到孤独，在胜利中感到空虚。因为如果你只是在扮演一个角色，你所做的一切，人们给予你的任何爱，都不会让你在存在层面上感受到。

Like, it's it's not quite the right environment for that. But, again, largely, this was due to the fact that I wasn't being sufficiently confident that other people would be interested in what I was interested in. And, yeah, I mean, you can be have all of the success in the world. You can be, surrounded by people and yet feel alone in a crowd and hollow in victory. Because if you're only playing a role, anything that you do, any love that people give to you won't feel like it hits you existentially.

你会感受到赞美，但不会感受到爱，因为他们爱的不是你，只是在为你扮演的角色鼓掌。这样说得通吗？

You'll feel praise, but you won't feel love because they're not in love with you. They're just applauding the role that you're playing. Does that make sense?

完全说得通。完全说得通。这个描述非常贴切。它真正引入了这个观点：对方连接的是什么才是最重要的。如果他们连接的是我创造的形象，而这个形象对我自己来说是不真实的，那我就永远无法真正接收到这种连接。

Makes perfect sense. Makes perfect sense. It's such an an apt description. It really brings in this idea of what the person is connecting to matters the most. I if they're connecting to the image that I've created, which is inauthentic to myself, I'm never gonna receive that connection.

治愈孤独的唯一方法就是做真实的自己，并在此基础上建立连接。这对我来说也非常有道理，因为我曾是一个年轻的CEO，手下有数百名员工。我与他们的关系不一定是真实的史蒂夫，对他们来说不是真正的史蒂夫。所以是

The only way to cure my loneliness is to show up as myself and to build connection on that basis, which is, again, makes a ton of sense to me because I was a young CEO who had hundreds of employees. My relationship to them wasn't necessarily Steve, the true sense of Steve to them. So are

是史蒂夫对CEO？

there Steve to CEO?

正是，是CEO对员工的关系。然后在我二十出头的个人生活中，可能只有一个人，也许两个人认识真正的史蒂夫，与史蒂夫有连接。是的。但可能甚至只有一个人，实际上，这非常有趣，因为这也涉及到西蒙·斯涅克的观点，我会想，哇，这个人太厉害了，但有多少人连接的是真实的西蒙呢？那个书背后的男人，崇拜背后的真人。

It was, exactly, it was CEO to employee. And then in my personal life, in the early twenties phase, there was maybe one person, maybe two that knew Steve that were connected to Steve. Yep. But even maybe one, actually, which is super interesting because we don't it also talks to Simon Sinek's thing where I go, well, he's this guy's amazing, but but how many people are connected to the true Simon? The guy behind the books, the guy behind the admiration.

你刚才提到的关于男性越来越孤独的研究，我想我读过同样的内容。我读到的是关于在危机时刻我们可以求助的人数，以及这个数字在过去几十年里如何衰减。为什么会这样？在文化和社会中发生了什么，导致我们在距离上，甚至在心理连接感上都变得越来越疏离？到底是怎么回事？

That study you referenced a second ago about men getting increasingly lonelier, I I think I read the same thing. The thing I read was about the amount of people we have to turn to in a time of crisis and how that's decayed over the last couple of decades. Why is that happening? What is happening in culture and society that's causing us to become more and more disconnected in terms of proximity, but also in just in sense of sort of psychological connection? What is going on?

这是个好问题。我认为这个问题没有单一答案。社交媒体可能要负很大责任。现在的情况是，社交连接的世界变得越来越不社交了，对吧？

It's a good question. I don't think that is a there's a single answer to this. Social media probably has a lot to answer for. What's happened now is the world of social connection has been made less and less social. Right?

你比以往任何时候都更加连接，但也比以往任何时候都更加原子化。我认为社交焦虑率上升的一些趋势确实令人担忧，这主要源于人们没有花足够时间进行社交。如果你比较孩子们过去在户外玩耍的平均时间与现在孩子们花在看电视、刷社交媒体和玩电子游戏上的平均时间，你基本上正在培养一代年轻的克里斯们——在这些方面缺乏社交教育。这最终会变成同样没有外出社交习惯的成年人，意味着他们无法发展与人连接、结交朋友的技能，从而导致孤独。我认为这就是我们讨论的大部分内容。

You're more more connected than ever before, but more atomized than ever before as well. I think that there are some really worrying trends in rising rates of social anxiety that are mostly downstream from people not spending enough time being social. If you look at the average amount of hours that kids would have played outside versus the average amount of hours that kids are spending watching television on social media and playing video games now, you are basically creating an army of young Chris's, right, that were socially uneducated in that regard. Downstream does turn into adults that similarly don't they haven't got the habits of going out and being social, which which means that they don't develop the skills to connect to people to be able to make friends, and that causes loneliness. Like, that's, I think, a large portion of what we're talking about.

那关于我们生活的优化呢？我们建设城市的方式以及...当我说生活优化时，我的意思是，比如

What about the, like, optimization of our lives and the way that we've built cities and the way that we're you know, when I say optimization of our lives, I mean, like,

如果我们点餐——便利。它是一个屏幕。我是说，这这仅仅是

if we order food Convenience. It's a it's a screen. I mean, this this is just

如果我们约会，它是一个屏幕。如果我联系在澳大利亚的母亲或姐妹，它也是一个屏幕。

If we date, it's a screen. If we connect to my mother or my sister in Australia, it's a screen.

是的。问题是，方便或令人愉悦的东西并不总是对你有益的，对吧？每晚给两岁孩子吃冰淇淋当晚餐既方便又愉悦，但可能对它不好。问题在于，在社交媒体和社交互动生活方面，我们都是自己的父母。

Yep. Well, the problem is that what is convenient or enjoyable is not always what's good for you. Right? Ice cream for dinner every single night for the two year old is both convenient and enjoyable, but probably not good for it. The issue is that we are all our own parents when it comes to our social media and, social interaction lives.

被拒绝的痛苦——无论是来自潜在朋友、潜在伴侣、工作机会、生意等等——都是痛苦的。我们做了不可思议的事情来试图削弱这个世界，把它包裹在棉花 wool 里，尽可能消除被拒绝的痛苦。这就是为什么在线约会如此成功——因为你不知道向左滑拒绝你的人，你只知道向右滑匹配的人。这就消除了约会中被拒绝的痛苦。

The pain of rejection, whether that be from a potential friend, a potential partner, a job offer, a business, whatever, it is is painful. And we have done incredible things to try and nerf the world, right, to wrap it in cotton wool so that the pain of rejection is removed as much as possible. This is why online dating is so successful Because the pain of rejection you don't know the people that swipe left on you. You only know the people that swipe right. That's taken the pain of rejection of dating away.

对吧？

Right?

你对约会应用怎么看？你觉得它们对世界来说是净积极还是净消极的？

What do you think of dating apps? Do you think they're net positive or net negative for the world?

你真要聊这个？

You really wanna go here?

当然，我要聊。好吧。

Of course, I wanna go. Okay.

好吧。我认为约会应用是一个完美的例子，它既方便又有趣，但对人并不好。它们确实为人们提供了更多认识潜在伴侣的机会。然而，我们却处在一个年轻人无性经历率创历史新高的世界。18至30岁的男性中，有三分之一在过去一年中没有过性生活。

Okay. I think that dating apps are a perfect example of something which is both convenient and enjoyable, but not good for you. They have certainly opened up more opportunities for people to meet potential partners. And yet, we are in a world with the highest rates of sexlessness ever amongst young people. One in three men between the ages of 18 and 30 hasn't had sex in the last year.

这一比例从2008年的8%增长到28%，翻了三倍。50%的男性表示他们不寻求稳定的恋爱关系，而之前有61%的男性表示他们寻求。只有一半的18至30岁男性在寻找恋爱关系。你想想看，好吧。

That tripled from eight percent to twenty eight percent from 02/2018. Fifty percent of men say that they are not looking for a committed relationship. That's down from sixty one percent of men saying that they were. Only half of men between the ages of 18 and 30 are looking for a relationship. You go, okay.

那么，如果在线约会轻松便捷的承诺如此真实，我们怎么会最终生活在一个人们性生活比以往任何时候都少的世界？女性的无性经历率也有所增加。但对男性来说，增加得更多，而且他们原本的基线也更高。历史上首次，50.1%的女性在30岁时没有孩子，无子女的女性数量超过了有孩子的女性。对吧？

Well, if the promises of easy access online dating were so true, how is it that we've ended up with a world where people are having less sex than ever? That sex sexlessness has also increased for women too. But for men, it's increased more, and they were starting at a higher baseline as well. Fifty point one percent of women, for the first time in history, are mothers, there are more childless women at 30 than there are women with children. Right?

因此，在几乎整个人类历史中，30岁以下生育的女性数量都超过30岁以上，而现在情况已经逆转。摩根士丹利的一项研究显示，到2040年，45%的25至45岁女性将保持单身且无子女。如果在线约会本应为开启恋爱关系提供完美便利，我们为何最终会面临所有这些结果？这是个值得思考的问题。

So for almost all of human history, more women had kids under the age of 30 than over, and now it's switched. There's a study from Morgan Stanley that says by 2040, forty five percent of twenty five to forty five year old women will be single and childless. If online dating was creating this perfect facilitation for relationships to start, how are we ending up with all of these outcomes? That's a question.

这些结果有什么问题吗？

What's wrong with the outcomes?

你是什么意思？为什么人们应该关心单身状态？

What do you mean? Why should people care about being single?

你刚才提到的所有统计数据——嗯。我可以客观地认为它们基本上是中性的。就像，这对社会或世界并没有不利影响。人们不生孩子没问题，人们没有性生活也没问题。

All the stats you just said Mhmm. I could look at them and say they're just sort of objectively neutral. Like, there's no adverse consequence to society or the world. It's fine that people aren't having kids. It's fine that people are aren't having sex.

我在这里扮演魔鬼代言人，但是，嗯，在你看来，你描述的所有这些结果会带来什么负面后果呢？

I'm playing devil's advocate here, but, like, what what is the what is the negative consequence of all of those outcomes that you've described in your view?

对某些人来说，没有伴侣的生活确实是正确选择。这一点我完全接受。但这并不适用于大多数人。亲密关系是最重要的影响因素之一。事实上，预测你一生健康结果的最强指标就是你拥有的亲密连接数量。

There are people for whom a life without a partner is the right choice. That's absolutely something that I'm prepared to accept. But it's not most people. It's one of the biggest levers. In fact, the single biggest predictor of your health outcomes in life are the number of close connections that you have.

是朋友的数量。这比戒烟更重要，比去健身房更重要，比戒酒更重要。关键在于你拥有的亲密朋友数量。

It's the number of friends. It's more than quitting smoking. It's more than going to the gym. It's more than stopping drinking. It's the number of close friends that you've got.

而恋爱关系就像一位非常亲密的朋友。罗宾·邓巴说，要进入一段恋爱关系，你必须牺牲两段友谊，因为一个人大约只能拥有五位非常亲密的朋友。如果你想谈恋爱，就需要放弃其中两位，因为这需要最低的时间投入。所以处于恋爱关系中的人健康状况更好，他们患痴呆症的时间也更晚。

And a relationship is a big close friend. Robin Dunbar says that in order to get into a relationship, you have to sacrifice two friendships because you can have around about five very close friends. If you want to get into a relationship, you need to get rid of two of them because there is a minimum time investment. So people that are in relationships have better health outcomes. They have onset of dementia later.

他们在晚年出现健康问题的时间更晚。他们更少感到孤独。这似乎相当无争议。然而，无论是男性还是女性，双方都在从恋爱关系中退缩，并找到理由来为此辩护。比如'霸道女总裁文化'和某种'向前一步'的女性心态，或者男性选择'独自前行'、'非自愿独身'文化和男性的'黑色药丸'理论，都是两性试图应对婚恋市场带来的挑战的方式。

They have alkalemic, problems later on in life. They are less lonely. That seems pretty uncontroversial. And yet, both sides of the aisle, both men and women are retreating from relationships and finding ways that they can justify this. Know, boss bitch culture and sort of the lean in women's mentality or men going their own way and incel culture and the black pill for guys are both ways that each sex is trying to deal with the challenges that are coming out of the mating market.

两性都在说：我不想再参与这一切了。我发现在这个世界里如此痛苦和困难，以至于我要完全抛弃这一切，然后事后想出很多解释来证明他们本来就不需要恋爱关系。对某些人来说，这是真的。但对大多数人来说，并非如此。

Both sexes are saying, I don't wanna be a part of this anymore. I'm finding it so painful and difficult to be in this world that I'm just gonna cast off any of it altogether and then retroactively come up with a lot of explanations that can justify why they didn't need to be in a relationship in any case. And for some people, that's true. But for most people, that's not.

显然，约会应用并不是，如你之前用自己的话所说，不是唯一的因果因素。所以我的问题是：我们哪里出了问题，又该如何纠正？

Dating apps are clearly not, you know, and as you said in your own words and previously, aren't the only causal factor. So my question to you is, where did we go wrong, and how do we go right?

好的。我认为婚恋市场的挑战来自多个方向。与听众最相关的一个主要因素是女性在教育和就业方面的成就提高。大约五十年前《教育法修正案第九条》实施时，大学中男女比例出现了13个百分点的转变，偏向女性。当时男性明显多于女性。

Okay. So I think challenges in the mating market are coming from many directions. One of the main ones that will be pertinent to the people that are listening is the increase in female achievement in education and employment. Now, about fifty years ago when Title Nine came in, there was a 13 percentage point swing in favor of men to women in universities. There were significantly more men than women.

什么是《教育法修正案第九条》？

What's Title IX?

这是一项平权行动政策，旨在帮助更多女性接受高等教育。五十年后的2023年，大学中的男女比例出现了15个百分点的转变，但方向相反。到2030年左右，美国四年制大学学位中女性与男性的比例约为2:1。21至29岁的女性平均比同龄男性多赚1111英镑。女性表示会重视伴侣经济前景的可能性大约是男性的两倍。

It was, an affirmative action, policy that helped to get more, women into higher education. Fifty years later, 2023, it's a 15 percentage point swing between men and women in university in the other direction. There are two women for every one man at a four year US college degree roundabout by 2030. Women on average between the ages of 21 and 29 earn £1,111 more than their male counterparts. Women are roughly twice as likely as men to say that they will value financial prospects in a partner.

大约78%的女性认为伴侣拥有稳定工作很重要，而只有约45%的男性持相同观点。男性要在10分制评分中提升2分，需要将收入提高约10倍；女性要实现同样的2分提升，收入则需要增加10,000倍。这说明女性对伴侣社会经济地位的重视程度远高于男性。现在你可以开始理解：当女性高等教育入学率很高，在21至29岁（大多数人寻找伴侣的年龄段）就业表现更成功时，伴侣的社会经济地位仍是女性吸引力的重要决定因素——这种失衡如何引发问题。教育方面同样如此。

Around about 78% of women say that a a stable job is something that is important for a partner to have, whereas around about only sort of 45% of men say the same thing. For a man to increase his, rating on a 10 scale by two points, he requires around about a tenfold increase in his salary. For a woman to achieve the same two point improvement on a 10 scale, her salary would need to increase by 10,000 times. My point being that women are concerned about a partner's socioeconomic status significantly more than men Now you can start to see that if you have a world in which women are attending university at high rates, they are achieving, more success in employment, at least in that sort of 21 to 29 range, which is when most people are perhaps looking for potential partners, and yet the socioeconomic status of a partner to a woman is a big determinant of their level of attraction, you can start to see how this imbalance could cause a problem. Similarly, when we talk about education.

在Tinder上，拥有硕士学位的男性比本科学历男性获得90%更多右滑喜欢。所以考虑读硕士的男士们，即使觉得学位无用，至少接受这个事实：余生能多获90%右滑，或者直接谎称有硕士学历。所有这些现象共同描述了'上迁婚'（hypergamy）现象，即女性倾向与平级或更优秀的男性交往。平均而言，女性希望约会对象的教育和职业水平不低于自己。

A man with a master's degree on Tinder gets 90% more rights swipes than a man with a bachelor's degree. So for all of the guys that are considering going and getting a master's degree, even if you think it's gonna be useless, at least accept the fact that you get 90% more rights swipes for the rest of your life, or just lie about your masters. I don't know. All of this rolled together describes something called hypergamy, which is the female tendency to date up and across. On average, women want to date a man who is as educated or as employed as they are.

在这个女性终于实现教育、就业、地位平等，获得独立且不再经济依赖伴侣的时代——这一切对她们很棒，但确实给约会带来挑战。这就是我所说的'高个女孩难题'。大家都认识身高六英尺（约183cm）不穿高跟鞋的女性朋友。如果想穿高跟鞋，她们可能得盯着职业运动员——因为女性通常希望约会对象至少与自己同高或稍高。随着女性通过教育和就业提升自身能力阶层，她们进一步缩小了合格男性的潜在范围：那些教育程度相当或更高、职业水平相当或更优的男性。

Now in a world in which, quite rightly, women have finally been able to achieve parity in education and employment and status and have independence and not be financially reliant on their partner, all the rest of it, That's great for them, but it it does cause some challenges for their dating. And this is what I've called the tall girl problem. So everybody knows what it's like to have a girl friend who is six foot without heels. You go if you wanna wear heels, you're looking at professional athletes because on average, women want to date a man who is at least as tall or a little bit taller than they are. So as women rise up through their own competence hierarchy in education and employment, they further shorten down the potential pool of eligible men that are as educated or more educated and as employed or more employed than they are.

这是个挑战，纯粹的结构性失衡。这导致分布底层的庞大男性群体对女性几乎隐形，同时使越来越多女性竞逐顶端日益缩小的'超级成功者'群体。

This is a challenge. This is just a straight up imbalance. Right? What this causes is a very large group of men toward the bottom of this distribution to be essentially invisible to women. It causes a very large number of women, an increasing cohort, to compete for an increasingly small group of turbocharged super performers at the top.

这些超高价值的男性选择丰富，因此回避承诺。既然有这么多选择，何必决定与一人共度余生？这导致他们利用并抛弃许多女性，进而使多数女性对整个男性群体产生怨恨。而被遗忘在底层的男性则会说：等等，我既没利用也没抛弃你，甚至从未被你看见过。

These guys, the super high value guys, have a wealth of options, so they are commitment averse. Why would they decide to sit down with one girl for the rest of time when they have this wealth of options, which can cause them to use and discard many of these women, which then causes most of these women to resent men overall. And then the guys that were forgotten at the bottom that say, well, hang on a second. I didn't use and discard you. I haven't even been seen by you.

不，不，所有男人都是利用者和施虐者，我们不需要他们，好男人都去哪儿了等等——实际上存在大量自认是好男人却被忽视的男性群体。也有大量终于实现教育、就业独立的女性在追逐更小群体的男性，而这些男性却回避承诺。我认为这对他们未必是好事，就像面对冰淇淋的孩子。

No no all men are whatever it might be right that they are users and abusers that we don't need them that where all of the good men at etc etc it's a big group of men that feel like they are good men that are invisible There's a big portion of women who have finally managed to achieve educational and employment and independence that are chasing after a smaller group of guys. These guys are commitment to verse. I don't think it's necessarily good for them either. It's the child with the ice cream. Right?

当选择众多时，男性要保持专一同样困难。这是主要驱动因素之一。我认为'高个女孩难题'正极大改变着约会动态。

Like, guys being able to keep it in their pants when there's a lot of options on the table is going to be difficult for them too. This is one of the main drivers. This, tall girl problem is a massive change, I think, in, the dating dynamics.

这显然引出了一个疑问，克里斯，如果你所说的一切都是客观正确、准确无误且有数据支持的，那么如果我让克里斯·威廉姆森成为世界总理或总统，我说你的首要任务是解决这个挑战嗯。你会怎么做？

It obviously begs a question, Chris, which is if everything you've said is objectively correct and spot on and supported by the data, then how does if I make Chris Williamson the prime minister or president of the world and I say your first job is to fix this challenge Mhmm. What do you do?

首先不能做的就是撤销女性的教育和就业机会。这正是这场讨论的问题所在。对吧？我刚才说的那些都有皮尤研究中心的数据、摩根士丹利的研究结果支持。这些都是无可辩驳的事实。

The first thing that you don't do is roll back women's education and employment. And this is one of the problems with this discussion. Right? The things that I've just said there are born out in Pew Research data, Morgan Stanley results. Like, these are incontrovertible facts.

对吧？这些数据就摆在那里。任何年收入超过5万英镑、拥有硕士及以上学历、接近三十岁末或三十多岁的女性听众都深知这个问题。你们都知道自己很难找到觉得配得上自己的男人。对吧？

Right? They are there. And any girl that is listening who earns more than £50,000 a year and has got a master's or above level education and is toward their late thirties or in the, toward their late twenties or in their thirties knows this problem. You know the fact that you are struggling to find a man that you feel is eligible for you. Right?

这个问题需要被正视。相关讨论中出现的问题是，它将男女置于彼此对立、竞争甚至敌对的立场。这剥夺了本该给予男女双方的宝贵同理心——如果你是一位通过努力获得学位的女性，你知道母亲辈无法实现这样的成就，你可能是家族中第一个上大学、获得学士、硕士或博士学位的人，然后在职场打拼多年，如今年薪15万美元，31岁的你想安定下来，这对你来说本应是美好的事。但男人都去哪儿了？稍等片刻后你会发现，你不仅要与日益壮大的高学历高成就女性群体竞争，还要与那些21岁仍住在父母家的咖啡师争夺有限的男性资源。这需要人们对女性给予同情。

That needs to be out there. The problem that happens around this discourse is that it posits men and women as adversaries and competitors of each other, as enemies. This means that worthwhile compassion, which is needed to both women and men if you're a woman who has gone through your education, you've dedicated yourself to achieving a degree, you know, your mother's generation wasn't able to achieve this and you're the first person that's maybe gone to uni or got a bachelor's or got a master's or got a PhD and then you spend some time in a career grinding away and you now earn $150 and you think right I'm 31 I'd love to settle down this would be amazing for me Where are all of the men at? Hang on a second And what you realise is that not only now are you competing with all of the other increasing cohort of women that are high achievers with status employment and education but you're also competing with a 21 year old barista who still lives at home with her parents for this small cohort of guys. That requires sympathy for women.

这对女性来说并非好事。与此同时，大批男性处于无性状态——30%的男性过去一年没有性生活，50%的男性表示不想谈恋爱。作为经历过二十多岁的男性，你都清楚18到30岁男性性驱动力有多强大。

That is not a good position for women to be in. At the same time, this huge cohort of sexless men, 30% of men haven't had sex in the last year, 50% of men say that they are not looking for a relationship. You are a man. You have been through your twenties. You know the power of the male sex drive between the ages of 18 and 30.

你能想象自己会说出'我对追求女性没兴趣'这种话吗？这对男性来说是极其极端的表态，而皮尤研究数据显示他们正在自我认同这种状态。这不是什么匿名论坛的数据，是皮尤研究——50%的男性不想谈恋爱。

Can you imagine getting yourself into a situation where you say, I'm not bothered about pursuing women? That is an unbelievably extreme statement for men to make, and they're self identifying as this in Pew Research data. This isn't on in cell forums. This is Pew Research. 50% of men aren't looking for a relationship.

当他们说不想谈恋爱时，是指'我不想找女人'还是'我不想承诺'？

When they say aren't looking for a relationship, do they mean I'm not looking for a woman or I'm not looking for commitment?

没有主动追求任何形式的与女性互动。哦，糟糕。包括随意的互动。什么？50%。

Not actively pursuing any kind of interaction with women. Oh, shit. Casual included. What? 50%.

重点是。对吧？你问到了解决方案。我们需要做的第一件事就是降低这两者之间的对立性质。任何人听到这两个故事，现代约会世界中男性的困境和女性的困境，都会觉得，哇，这太糟糕了。

Here's the point. Right? You asked about solutions. The first thing that we need to do is turn down the volume of adversarial, nature between these two. Anybody that listens to those two stories, right, the plight of men and the plight of women in the modern dating world and doesn't see it as, wow, that's fucked.

这对两性来说真的、真的很糟糕。男性在某些方面处境更差，女性在其他方面处境更差。对吧？这不是一场比赛，比如，哦，让我们挥舞旗帜看谁积累了更多的受害者积分。

That that really, really sucks for both sexes. Men have it worse in some ways. Women have it worse in different ways. Right? This isn't a competition of, like, oh, let's wave the flag of who's actually accumulated more victimhood points.

在任何事情发生之前，首先要做的是降低对话的音量。我们需要看到两性面临的挑战。第二件需要摆在前面的事是，必须有一种提升男性而不贬低女性的方式，因为很容易你会说，好吧，女性在教育和就业方面超越了男性，那就给她们套上缰绳，一切就会回归正常。

The first thing that needs to happen before anything is the volume of the conversation needs to be turned down. We need to see the challenges that are faced by both sexes. The second thing that needs to be put out front is that there needs to be a way to raise men up without bringing women down because it is very easy for you to say, okay. So women are out achieving men in education and employment. Let's just put the reins on them, and then everything's gonna be brought back.

他说，看，我不是想推翻女性在过去五十年取得的任何成就。但你确实想要有合格的男性伴侣。对吧？如果吸引力的热力学包括女性倾向于在地位、就业和教育方面平级或向上约会，你需要做点什么。

He goes, look. I am not trying to roll back any of the gains that have been made by women over the last fifty years. But you do want to have eligible male partners. Right? If the thermodynamics of attraction include the fact that women tend to want to date across and up in terms of status, employment, and education, you need to do something.

对吧？一些你可以考虑的解决方案包括让男孩晚一年入学，也就是让男孩晚一年开始上学。这是理查德·里维斯提出的。原因是男孩往往比女孩成熟得慢。如果你让男孩晚一年上学，意味着他们在那个年龄会更有效能。

Right? Some of the things that you could look at doing in terms of solutions would be red shirting boys, so starting boys in school one year later. This is something that was put forward by Richard Reeves. The reason for this is that boys tend to mature less quickly than girls. If you were to start boys one year later in school, it would mean that they would be more effective at their age.

他们在心理上会更成熟。这是一个开始。另一个我认为可能更有争议但会产生巨大影响的方案是停止贬低母亲身份。对吧？重新将母亲身份奉上神坛。

They would be more mature mentally. That's one start. Another one that I think is probably more controversial but would make a big impact would be to stop derogating motherhood. Right? To start pedestalizing motherhood again.

在女性建议的某些角落存在一种巨大思潮，认为任何决定成为母亲的女性本质上都是二等公民。我不认为这是真的。我不认为选择成为母亲的女性是二等公民。但女性常常害怕仅仅成为母亲，或者仅仅成为妻子，或者最糟糕的是成为家庭妓女，于是她们逃离家庭生活的幽灵，投入企业雇主的怀抱，而可笑的是，我们称这一过程为自由——为什么我们大多数人一生中都感激的伟大母亲，现在却被贬低为某种像是被塞进父权制一直想让她们扮演的角色？

There is a huge movement in certain corners of women's advice that any woman who decides to become a mother is a second, essentially, a second class citizen. I don't think that that's true. I don't think that a woman that chooses to become a mother is a second class citizen. But women often fear becoming just a mother, right, or just a wife or, at worst, a domestic prostitute, and they flee from this specter of family life into the open arms of a corporate employer, and laughably, we call this process freedom, how can it be that the thing that most of us are are grateful for a great mother in our life has now been derogated as some sort of it's it's like somebody's been rubbed into a role that the patriarchy always wanted them to do. Right?

不久前有一篇文章说，母性本能是个神话。基本上，母性本能存在的唯一原因是父权制让女性相信她们实际上应该喜欢孩子。这简直荒谬到让我无从解释——如果你看看人类运作方式中所有的性别差异。将母亲身份崇高化会让女性减少对成为母亲的恐惧，这将使它成为她们追求的理想目标。

There was an article a little while ago, that said, maternal instinct is a myth. That basically, the only reason that maternal instinct exists is because the patriarchy has convinced women that they're actually supposed to like kids. It's like, I I can't even begin to explain how ridiculous that is if you look at all of the sex differences in terms of the way that humans work. Pedestalizing motherhood would make women fear being a mother less. It would make it an aspirational goal for them to to pursue.

我了解到的最令人震惊的统计数据之一来自一位叫斯蒂芬·肖的人。他拍摄了一部名为《生育差距》的纪录片。在其中他谈到了这种下降的出生率。林斯卡·凯泽教授的一项元分析表明，80%在生育窗口关闭后没有成为母亲的女性并非有意不成为母亲。这是非自愿的无子女状态。

One of the scariest stats that I learned was from a guy called Stephen Shaw. He wrote a did a documentary called Birth Gap. And in it, he talks about this declining birth rate. A meta analysis by professor Rinska Keyser says that eighty percent of women who aren't mothers after their fertility window closes didn't intend to not be mothers. It's involuntary childlessness.

大约10%的女性生理上无法生育孩子，非常不幸。大约10%的女性有意不要孩子，这使得高达五分之四的非母亲女性并非有意不成为母亲。这些女性有支持小组，她们聚在一起为从未有过的家庭哀悼，她们心碎于未能在生育窗口关闭前及时找到合适的伴侣。凯泽教授谈到了这些女性感受到的痛苦。

Around about ten percent of women are physiologically incapable of having kids. Very unfortunate. Around about ten percent of women intended to not have children, which leaves a whopping four out of five non mother women who didn't intend to not be mothers. And these women have support groups where they come together to grieve for families that they never had, and it breaks their hearts that they weren't able to find the right partner in time before their fertility window closed. And professor Kaiser talks about the pain that these women feel.

斯蒂芬·肖去过这些支持小组，那些以为还有更多时间、挣扎着及时找到伴侣的女性，她们为从未有过的家庭哀悼。这句话让我感到非常难过。听到一个女性想要组建家庭却未能如愿的前景是如此痛苦。这非常艰难。

And Stephen Shaw's been to these support groups that women who thought that they had more time, that struggled to find a partner in time, they grieve for families that they never had. And that that sentence just it makes me it makes me feel so upset. Like, it's so painful to hear the prospect of a woman that that wanted to have a family in Cotin. It's very difficult.

所以你提出了两种解决方案作为潜在对策。但这本身是否能解决硬币的另一面——即大量男性回避关系、亲密接触乃至完全回避女性的问题？

So there's there's two solutions there that you've kind of offered up as potential solutions to that. Does that alone fix the other side of the coin, which is the the huge quantity of men that are avoiding relationships, intimacy, women altogether?

并不特别有效。以某种方式提升男性会很好，但从哪里开始，我不知道。我认为男性在教育就业领域严重缺席。自1950年以来，男性正以每年0.1%的速度退出美国劳动力市场——1950年这一比例是87%。

Not particularly. Raising men up somehow would be great, but, I mean, where we begin with that, I don't know. I think men are heavily checked out of education, and employment. Men have been retreating from The US labor force market by naught point 1% per year since 1950. 87% in 1950.

目前大约是67%。到2050年或2040年或2050年，这一比例将达到65%。考虑到女性平均希望——约80%的女性希望男性有稳定工作，这种退步并不乐观。男性在教育和就业领域的每一步退出，不仅使他们自我孤立、经济上作为社会贡献者的可行性降低，也使他们作为伴侣的吸引力下降。在美国，18至30岁的男性平均每年花费两千小时在玩游戏、吸毒或服用处方药上。

It's about 67 now. By 2050 or 2040 or 2050, it'll be 65%. Given that women want, on average, about 80% of women want a man with a stable job, this retreat is not good. Each step that men take where they take themselves out of education and employment not only isolates them and makes them economically, less viable as contributors to society, it also makes them less eligible as mates. On average, men between 18 and 30 in The US spend two thousand hours per year playing video games stoned or on prescription drugs.

这可不是理想的伴侣，对吧？所以你可以考虑做的事情之一是重新鼓励线下约会。因为在线约会确实加剧了这个问题，它让你能够优化对成功客观指标的追求，对吧？

That's not the eligible partner. Right? So one of the things that you could look at doing is re encouraging in person dating. So online dating does worsen this issue because it allows you to optimise for objective metrics of success. Right?

在约会应用上——这对男女都一样——特别是在男性方面，你可以展示教育水平、拥有的汽车、谈论工作等等。平台本身极大地鼓励女性以极低分辨率的角度看待这个人。所以男性能够努力提升的所有方面，比如氛围感、幽默感、令人愉快、善良、关怀、魅力，这些在Tinder资料上都无法体现。这意味着它进一步恶化了高个子女孩问题。

On a dating app, and this is for both men and women. On a dating app, particularly for men, you can have your education level, you can have the car that you're with, you can talk about your job, you can so women are very much encouraged by the platform itself to take a a incredibly low resolution view of this person. So all of the things that guys are able to work on, like, you know, vibe and humor, being pleasant, being kind, being caring, being charming. None of that can come across on a Tinder profile. And this means that it further worsens the tall girl problem.

你可以看到这如何使客观指标越来越恶化。别忘了约会应用上男女比例是3:1。所以即使每个男性都匹配到一个女性，仍然会有大量男性没有伴侣，对吧？因此在线约会并没有实现任何人对其的期望。

You see how it would it would make the objective metrics even more and more worsened. Let's not forget that there are three men for every one woman on a dating app. So even if every man matched off with a woman, there would still be this huge number of men that didn't have a partner. Right? So online dating hasn't delivered on the promises I think that anybody wanted for it.

女性向右滑动约4.5%的男性资料，男性向右滑动约60%的女性资料。这意味着很多男性认为在线约会是在浪费时间。我们谈到过它如何缓冲拒绝感，帮助人们不那么强烈地感受拒绝。但当你花大量时间在应用上，平均向右滑动60%的人，却很少或根本没有匹配，或者少数匹配从未转化为约会，这理所当然地让人们对接约世界感到失望。我们之前讨论的社交媒体问题带来的下游影响是调情能力的缺失。我认为调情在当前是一门失传的艺术，你知道这是一件非常复杂的事情，是一种推拉游戏，你需要理解社交动态和互动的许多微妙之处，你需要能够调侃但不过分，调情的艺术极其难以掌握，如果你从未在现实世界中与女性互动过，这就更加困难，尤其是对男女而言。

Women swipe right on around about 4.5% of profiles for men Men swipe right on about 60% of profiles for women This means that a lot of men see online dating as a waste of time We spoke about how it buffers rejection and that it helps people to not feel rejection so much. But when you spend a lot of time on apps swiping right on 60% of people on average and you don't get very many matches or any matches or the few matches you do get never turn into dates, that would quite rightly make people feel disenchanted with the world of dating. Downstream from the problems of social media that we spoke about before are a lack of ability to flirt. I actually think that flirting is a lost art at the moment you know it's a very complex thing to do it's a push and pull you have to understand a lot of intricacies about sort of social dynamics and interaction you need to be able to tease but not too much and the art of flirting is incredibly difficult to get right, and it's even more difficult if you've never interacted with a woman in the real world, especially as guys and girls.

现在让我们触及另一个敏感话题，史蒂文。#MeToo运动。#MeToo是必要的，它要求有权势的男性为行为不端和利用权力获取性接触负责。它试图做的是净化某些男性行为中的有毒元素，但最终做的是几乎 sterilise 了所有行为——84%（或80%）的男性报告因为害怕被看作 creepy 而不接近女性，84%的女性表示希望男性主动。女性因为性侵犯的故事、工作场所的危险、有权和无权男性的越界行为而害怕被男性接近。

Now let's touch another third rail, Steven. Me too. So Me too was a necessary requirement to call powerful men to account for misbehaving and using their power to gain sexual access to women. What it sought to do was to sanitize the toxic elements of certain males behaviour What it's ended up doing is it sterilised almost all of it eighty four percent eighty percent of men report not approaching a woman because they are scared of being seen as creepy eighty four percent of women say they want the man to make the first move. Women are terrified of being approached by men because of stories of sexual assault, of dangers within the workplace, of overreach by men that are both in power and out of power.

男性因为害怕被指控所有这些事情而不敢接近女性。因此，在我们四百万年的历史中，首次出现了性别之间的孤独和无性流行病。我们有大量的男性和女性群体渴望恋爱关系却无法进入。男性在约会应用上感到隐形，在现实世界中害怕接近女性。女性渴望与想要的男性建立关系，但要么不被搭讪，要么被利用和虐待。

Men are terrified of approaching women for fear of being accused of all of those things. So we have an epidemic of loneliness and sexlessness amongst the sexes for the first time in our four million year history. We have large cohorts of both men and women who want relationships and can't get into them. Men feel invisible on dating apps and are terrified of approaching women in the real world. Women yearn for men who they want to be in a relationship with, but either are not spoken to by or are used and abused by.

在现实中，两人都害怕在任何情况下与对方交谈，担心要么被指责，要么成为某种可怕互动的受害者。我认为重新启用线下约会将带来巨大改变。这会减少高个子女孩的问题，因为男性有机会在女性眼中获得地位，比如一个可能没有大学学位但极其幽默的人仍然很有地位感。对吧？因为幽默和性别都是一种地位感。

In person, both of them are terrified of talking to each other in any case for fear of either being accused of or becoming the victim of some sort of terrible interaction. I think that re enabling in person dating would make a massive difference. Would reduce down the tall girl problem because you would have the ability for guys to, gain status in the eyes of a for instance, a, guy that maybe not doesn't have a university degree, but is unbelievably funny is still very statusful. Right? Because humor and gender's a sense of status.

在黑药丸世界里这被称为小丑最大化。但如果只是在线上约会，那个人可能就没机会了。所以这会是另一个因素。而且你也能看到，#MeToo 那些极其正义的理念，当走向极端时，最终可能导致一些外部效应，使女性在约会市场中处于不利地位。你明白我的意思吗？

It's called clown maxing in the the black pill world. But that guy might not get a chance if he was just on online dating. So that would be another thing. And and you can see as well how the incredibly, righteous ideas of Me Too, when taken to an extreme, could end up causing some externalities that disadvantage women in the dating market. Do you see what I mean?

当然。听你这么说，我想起了那个疯传的视频，健身房里的年轻女孩拍摄了一个过来问她是否需要帮忙调整重量的男士。是的。你知道我在说哪个视频吗？

Of course. As as you're saying that, was thinking about that video that went viral of the young girl in the gym who was filming the guy that came over to ask her if she needed help with the weights. Yeah. Do know do you know the video I'm talking about?

知道。

Do.

没错。为没有背景信息的人解释一下：一位年轻女士在TikTok上设置好相机，在健身房拍摄一个男士，并预判他会过来帮忙。果然，那位男士走过来问：需要帮忙调整重量吗？并试图帮她调整重量。然后当他走开时，她咒骂他，基本上把他描绘成一个捕食者。

Yep. So for anybody that doesn't have the context, a young lady on TikTok set up her camera while she was in the gym, and she was filming a guy and sort of anticipating him coming over to help. And lo and behold, the guy walks over and says, do you want a hand with the weight? And tries to give her a hand with the weight. And then as he walks off, she, like she cusses him out and says he's a basically portrays him as this, like Predator.

捕食者/怪物。而网络上的反应却相反。网络反应是支持那位男士，因为他只是过来问她是否需要帮忙。当然，我们都知道健身房里确实存在很有掠夺性的男性。

Predator slash monster. And the reaction online was the inverse. The reaction online was, like, was siding with the man because he just came over and asked her if she wanted a hand. Of course, we both know that there are very predatory men in gyms.

没错。

Correct.

我有女性朋友也谈到过这个问题。我女朋友经常说起这个。她会告诉我她在健身房的经历。但强调这个问题还有另一面，这让那些完全合理、礼貌、真心想帮忙的男性——或者说实话就是想搭讪的男性——

I've I've got female friends that have spoken to that. My girlfriend speaks to that all the time. She tells me how of her experiences in the gym. But there is another side to highlighting this issue, which causes perfectly reasonable, polite men who are genuinely offering a hand in something Mhmm. Or let's be honest flirting Yeah.

变得他妈害怕得要死。

To be totally fucking terrified.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

而这正是我们很少进行的艰难对话——我们能看到这件事的净收益。能看到积极的一面。嗯。但负面影响是什么？生活中任何事情都有代价。

And and this is the this is the difficult conversation that we don't have a lot, which is what's the the net we can see the net positive of that. We can see the positive side of that. Mhmm. But what is the downside? Everything in life has a cost.

是不是现在我们因为害怕被发到TikTok上曝光，而不敢与陌生人展开对话。

Is that now that we are scared to broker conversations with strangers through fear of being put on blast on TikTok.

如果你追求绝对安全，最终结果就是再也没有人在健身房接近女孩。我不知道。也许有女孩会说，你知道吗？值得为此付出代价：再也没有女孩在健身房被搭讪，再也没有女孩觉得在健身房被人盯着看。你明白吗？

If you optimize for absolute safety, what you're going to end up with is nobody ever approaching a girl in the gym. Now I don't know. Maybe maybe there are girls that say, do you know what it is? It is worth it for no girl to ever be flirted with in the gym, for no girl to ever be made to feel like they are being, stared at in the gym. You know?

就像，如果我们必须付出的代价是再也没有人能在健身房约会，那也没关系，因为我们得到的好处是再也没有人会感到不舒服。对吧？有几点需要明辨：首先，几乎所有男性行为不端、做出 creepy 行为的，都是极少数反复这样做的男性群体。这是来自David Buss的《男性行为失当》的研究。

Like, if the price that we have to pay is that no one ever gets a date, a gym date, then that's fine because the benefit that we get is that no one ever is made to feel uncomfortable. Right? A few things to discern that. First off, almost all, indiscretions from men that are where they do creepy behavior are a very, very small cohort of men that repeatedly do it. This is from David Buss's, men behaving badly.

这是一个男人对女性做了一千件坏事，而不是一千个男人各对女性做了一件坏事。问题在于这仍然会造成一千次与女性的糟糕互动，对吧？但还有999个男人会说：我可不是那样的人，我却也被这把坏刷子给抹黑了。

It is one man doing a thousand bad things to women, not a thousand men doing one bad thing to women. Now the problem is that that can still cause a massive that's still a thousand bad interactions with women. Right? But you have 999 men that are saying, well, I don't behave like that. I've been smeared with this with this bad this bad brush.

这对我们双方来说都是一条极其难走的钢丝。当女性安全因此获得诸多明显益处时，我们该如何讨论她们在约会世界中面临的一些挑战？吉姆，关于那个'有毒男性凝视'视频，我了解到的一个有趣之处是：它在TikTok上的反响原本可能走向任何一个极端——就像站在刀锋上一样微妙。

And this is an incredibly difficult line for both of us to thread here. How is it that we can talk about some of the challenges that women face in the dating world when there are so many obvious benefits that have occurred to their safety as a byproduct of this. One of the interesting things that I learned about that, Jim, the toxic Jim gaze video was it could have gone either way when it went onto TikTok. Right? It was a knife edge.

如果你给我看那个视频且隐藏评论，问我认为反响会如何？这简直像抛硬币一样难以预测。以我之见，我不认为他越界了，但我确实无法预知世界会如何反应。关键在于，许多人通过观察他人对社交行为的接受度来形成自己的判断标准。这类标志性事件最终会塑造现实世界中人们认为可接受的行为趋势。假设在另一个平行宇宙里，大家都认定那个男人的行为确实过分了。

If you'd showed me that video and the comments were hidden and you said, what do you think the reaction's gonna be? Are you gonna toss a coin toss a coin and that will be this guy's either push in my opinion, I don't think that he had overstepped, but I don't understand how the world is going to react to this. Now the interesting thing there is that a lot of people take their cues about what is and is not acceptable social behaviour from the way that other people view what is and is not acceptable social behaviour. So those sorts of landmark episodes actually end up creating a trend of what people in the real world will consider to be acceptable behaviour. So let's say we have a different version of the universe, and in that universe, everybody decided that that actually was too much from a man.

那么所有观看视频的女孩都会说：天啊，如果男人在90秒内瞥我超过三次，还想帮我卸下臀推器械的配重片，这就足以构成对虐待和有毒男性凝视的合理担忧了。于是我们将期望值重置到了一个敏感得多的标准。同样地，男人们也会想：好吧，我知道90秒内瞥三次外加帮人卸杠铃片是过分行为。

What you have then is all of the girls that watch that video, seeing it and saying, oh my god, if a guy glances over at me more than three times in ninety seconds and tries to help me deload a glute bridge, that constitutes worthy concern about abuse and the toxic male gaze. Right? So we have now reset expectations down to a much tighter sensitivity level. Similarly for men, they think, okay. I know that three glances in ninety seconds plus assisting someone to deload the plates from a bar is too much.

因此，我最多只能在90秒内瞥一眼。明白吗？你看我们就这样把世界变得越发谨小慎微，用越来越多的棉花层层包裹起来。随之而来的就是概念无限泛化，最终任何行为都可能被贴上'有毒男子气概'的标签。

Therefore, at most, I can have one glance during ninety seconds. Do understand? Mean, do you see how we we would further nerf the world? We would wrap it in more and more and more cotton wool. And then downstream from that, you concept creep this out to the stage where anything is toxically masculine.

就像

Like

但除此之外还有个非常微妙的点：如果那个男人是查宁·塔图姆呢？你明白我的意思吗？

But there's a really interesting point of nuance as well on top of that, which is what if that guy was Channing Tatum? Do you see what I mean?

这里又是一个敏感话题。那就是

Another third rail here. And that's

因为如果如果如果我告诉你，如果如果那个视频是查宁·塔图姆，实际上是查宁·塔图姆

because if if if I tell you what, if if that video was Channing Tatum, actually Channing Tatum

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

如果我关掉声音看那个视频，听不到她在说什么，我会以为她在炫耀

And I'd watched that video with the sound off and I couldn't hear what she was saying, I would think she was bragging

相信他正在看着我。天啊。他正在看着我。

to have believe he's looking at me. Oh my god. He's looking at me.

塔图姆过来了，他正在帮忙，哦。

Tatum's come over and he's helping with oh.

是的。是的。没错。我的意思是，再次说明，网上一些男性圈子的建议是，一个令人毛骨悚然的人和你喜欢的男人之间的区别仅仅在于他有多帅。这与这个人如何接近你无关。

Yeah. Yeah. Yep. I mean, again, this is some of the Manosphere advice online is that the difference between a creep and a guy that you fancy is just how hot he is. That it's not to do with, how the person approaches you.

这完全取决于他们是否有吸引力。我确实认为这里面有一点道理。我想说的是，一个外貌评分1/10的男人和一个10/10的男人走向你。假设你正处于一段关系中。假设你已经结婚了。

It's all to do with whether or not they're attractive. I do think that there's a little bit of truth in that. I think that a guy that comes up to you who is a one out of 10 or a guy that comes up to you that's a 10 out of 10. Let's say that you're in a relation. Let's say that you're married.

对吧？你正在酒店前台办理入住，排着一个小队。你身后的男人恰好是查宁·塔图姆或者那个1/10的男人。他说，听着，我...我很抱歉。我...我必须告诉你。

Right? And you are at the front desk of a hotel just checking in and you're in a little queue. And the guy behind you happens to be either Channing Tatum or one out of 10 guy. He says, look, I I sorry. I I just had to tell you.

我觉得你今天看起来真的非常非常漂亮。希望你今天过得愉快。这两种情况下的体验差异天差地别。对吧？对于某些女性来说，基于她们对男性的期望、与男性的关系、对男性的恐惧和焦虑，这可能会是完全不同的体验。

I think you look really, really nice today. I hope that you're having a great day. The difference in terms of experience there isn't nothing. Right? And for certain girls and the, expectations that they have around men and their relationship to men and their fear of men and their anxiety of it, it could be very different sorts of experiences.

让我们看看问题的另一面。男性越界行为以及男性如何能做得更好。这就是我...这就是我想确保我们对话保持平衡的原因，因为正如我们都谈到过的，社会上、企业界、我们的日常生活中存在大量不当行为。作为男性，你认为我们如何能做得更好？当我说的更好，实际上我指的是懂得如何以不会让女性感到不适、害怕或恐惧的方式接近她们。

Let's give the other side of the coin. Men overstepping the mark and how men can be better. That's what I that's what I I wanna make sure we're balanced in this conversation because there are as we both have spoken to, there are a huge amount there is a huge amount of inappropriate behavior that happens throughout society, through the corporate world, through our everyday lives. How as men do you think we can be better? And when I say better, really what I'm speaking to here is be is know how to approach a woman in a way that is not gonna make them feel uncomfortable, intimidated, fearful.

这就是女性一直在谈论的问题。她们谈到不得不握着车钥匙走回家，不得不在街上走路时假装打电话。这些都是我妹妹、我的女性朋友们都说过的事情。所以作为男性，我们如何能做得更好？

And that's the the what women speak to all the time. They talk about how they have to walk home with their car keys in their hand because of they pretend they're on phone calls when they're walking down the street. These are all things that my, you know, my sister, my female friends have spoken to. So how as men can we be better?

首先，我认为实际上需要花时间在安全环境中练习。就像，学习如何与女性互动的唯一方法就是去实践。这不是你能在互联网上琢磨出来的事情。我是说，一些基本的东西。比如，不要站得离她太近。

The first thing, I think, is to actually spend some time sandboxing this, like practicing. Like, you need the only way that you're going to learn how to how to interact with a woman is by doing it. It's not the sort of thing that you're going to be able to work out on the Internet. I mean, like, basic stuff. Like, don't stand super close to her.

不要在夜晚的黑暗小巷里这样做。不要长时间盯着看却一言不发。对吧？这些都是非常基本的、初级的客观标准。但归根结底，真正重要的是要有点魅力。

Don't do it in a dark alleyway at night. Don't stare for ages without saying anything. Right? These are very basic, like, rudimentary objective metrics that we can give. But really what it comes down to is just have a bit of charm about you.

你要明白，如果你走上前去对一个女孩说：'嗨，我只是想问一下你今天过得怎么样。我只是想告诉你，你今天看起来真的很漂亮。'如果有女孩对此有意见，前提是这不是在深夜的死胡同小巷里，而且你还戴着兜帽。对吧？

Understand that if you go up and say something to a girl, hi, I just wanted to ask how your day is going. I just wanted to tell you that you looked really nice today. If there is a girl that has a problem with that, presuming that it's not in a cul de sac alleyway at the dead of night and you've got your hood up. Right?

或者，或者你是她的雇主。

Or or you're her employer.

或者你是她的雇主。嗯，这里还有一个有趣的例子。对吧？比尔和梅琳达·盖茨。对吧？

Or you're her employer. Well, here's here's another interesting one. Right? Bill and Melinda Gates. Right?

梅琳达·盖茨在微软工作。比尔是创始人和CEO。比尔在办公室里看到梅琳达。这是在1980年代。他想，哇。

Melinda Gates works for Microsoft. Bill is the founder and CEO. Bill sees Melinda around the office. This is in the 1980s. And he thinks, wow.

是的。她挺不错的。于是他决定打电话给她说：'梅琳达，我是比尔，想知道你是否愿意某天晚上和我出去约会？'她说：'你打算什么时候？'他说：'三周后的明天怎么样？'她说：'比尔，我觉得你不够随性，不适合我。'

Yeah. She's she's a bit of alright. So he decides to ring her and say Melinda it's Bill, wondered if you wanted to go out with me one evening and she said when when are you thinking? He says how's three weeks tomorrow? She said Bill I I don't think that you're spontaneous enough for me.

我觉得这样不行。他挂了电话。三十分钟后，他又打回去说：'这样够随性吗？你今天剩下的时间放假。我们去约会吧。'

I don't think that this is going to work. He put the phone down. Thirty minutes later, he rings back and says, how's this for spontaneous? You've got the rest of the day off. Let's go on a date.

2023年。大型科技公司的创始CEO，打电话给前台接待员约她出去，在她拒绝后又打回去，把她从工作中拉出来带她去约会。游戏结束。完蛋了。比尔·盖茨和哈维·韦恩斯坦之间的界限在哪里？

2023. Founder CEO of large tech company, rings receptionist asking her to date him and after she says no rings back again pulls her out of work and takes her on a date. Game over. Done. Where is the line in between Bill Gates and Harvey Weinstein Weinstein?

嗯，问题恰恰在于细节，对吧？每个人都能说哈维·韦恩斯坦的行为是错误的。有些人会说比尔·盖茨的行为是错误的。但是，好吧，对于两个人来说——一个男人和一个女人，他们每天、每次去饮水机时，其中一人看到对方起身，就像从椅子上逃离一样，以便有机会一起去饮水机，他们已经这样做了六个月，这是一种超级柏拉图式的关系，但男人害怕，女人也害怕——这样做是错误的吗？

Well, it it's precisely in the details. Right? Everybody can say what Harvey Weinstein did was wrong. Some people would say that what Bill Gates did was wrong. But, okay, Is it wrong for two people, a guy and a girl who spend every day, every single time that they go to the water cooler, one of them sees the other one gets up and, like, escapes from their chair so that they get the opportunity to go to the water cooler together and they've been doing it for six months and it's this super platonic thing, but the guy's terrified and the girl's terrified.

你会想，好吧。就像，我们是否应该削弱每一段关系，使得那种互动永远无法进入下一阶段，考虑到我们有很高的孤独率，考虑到我们有大量的无性行为。20%的关系始于在线约会，20%的关系始于在线媒体、社交媒体。对吧？那就是五分之二的关系始于线上，而且它们是最脆弱的。

You go, okay. Like, should we nerf every relationship so that that interaction can never move to the next level given the fact that we've got high rates of loneliness, given the fact that we've got massive amounts of sexlessness. Twenty percent of relationships begin on online dating, twenty percent of relationships begin in online media, social media. Right? That's two out of five relationships begin online, and they're the most fragile.

它们是消失得最快的，它们是维持时间最短的。 workplace 的关系更好。朋友关系甚至更好。教会关系甚至比那更好。

They're the ones that drop the quickest. They're the ones that stay together the the least long. Workplace, better. Friends, even better. Church, even better than that.

对吧？但这是一个我们处于未知水域的情况，各位。在婚恋世界里，我们正处于未知的水域。

Right? But it is a it is we are in uncharted waters here, people. With regards to the mating world, we are in uncharted waters.

哈维·韦恩斯坦的例子让我觉得，那家伙真是个他妈怪物。

The Harvey Weinstein example is where I was like, that guy was a fucking monster.

嗯，当然。

Well, of course.

是的。但比尔·盖茨的那个我理解，有点像老式的方式做事。你知道，当我们的世界还是一个村庄的时候，我们可能会写封信，或者从教堂带女孩出去之类的。但哈维·韦恩斯坦，这家伙真是个他妈怪物。就像，我记得听过一些录音和受害者的故事，这家伙真是个他妈捕食者。

Yeah. But but the Bill Gates one I get, it's kinda like the old fashioned the old fashioned way of doing things. You know, when we used to when our world used to be a village and we would, you know, maybe write a letter or we'd take the girl out from the church or whatever. But the Harvey Weinstein, this guy was a fucking monster. Like, he was I remember listening to some of the tapes and the victims, and this guy was a fucking predator.

他是

He was

好像听过那些。

like listened to any of those.

真的吗？

Really?

它们很折磨人吗？

Are they harrowing?

这这这这简直是我听过最恶心的事情之一，甚至会有记者来采访他，而他竟然就在采访过程中对她进行性侵犯和身体攻击。

It's it's it's it's just it's one of the most disgusting things I've ever heard where even, like, a journalist would come and interview him, and he would just be, like, you know, sexually assaulting and physically assaulting her during the interview.

所以这家伙完全没有边界感。

So this guy just had no boundaries.

他就是个恶心的怪物。

He is he is just a disgusting monster.

你明白我的意思吗？确实，围绕那件事需要有一个清算。必须对那种利用那种职位获取那种机会的男人进行清算。是的。那需要被净化。那种行为需要被净化，而且必然会带来后续影响。

Do you see what I mean that, like, quite rightly, there needed to be a reckoning around that. There had to be a reckoning around that kind of a man using that kind of a position to get that kind of access. Yeah. That needed sanitising. That sort of behaviour needed sanitising and there was going to be fallout from it.

在此之后，行为应该被净化到什么程度才算彻底清洁？有84%的女性表示希望男性主动迈出第一步。对吧？对于正在听节目的女孩们，你们有多少次是主动接近男生的？我在夜店工作了十五年，在那里见过大概一百万人。

Downstream from that, how sanitised should behaviour be up to the point at which it's been sterilised? And there is 84% of women say that they want the man to make the first move. Right? It is still on mean, for the girls that are listening, how many times have you been the one that's approached a guy? Like, I've been in nightclubs for fifteen years, Met about a million people in there.

只有两次有女孩主动过来直接找我搭讪。两次。而我已经工作了上千个夜晚

Twice it's ever happened to me that girls have come up and been like forthright about chatting me up. Twice. And I've worked a thousand nights in my

其实这已经算很不错了。

That's actually pretty good going actually.

是啊。一千次里遇到两次。不算太糟。这也可能是我的问题，对吧？但这真的很困难，老兄。

Yeah. Two out of a thousand. That's not too bad. And that could also be my fault, Right? Like but this is very difficult, man.

再次强调，对于那些会说'这有什么关系？'的男女们——你知道，人们单身又有什么关系？特别是对女性而言，如果你是一位高成就女性，拥有博士学位——我有个朋友，博士，百万富翁，在健身行业白手起家的百万富翁，三十多岁，现在选择走精子捐赠路线。她真的很难找到伴侣。

And, again, for the guys and girls that would say, well, what does it matter? You know? What does it matter that we, that people are going to be single? Especially for women, if you're a high achieving woman who's got the PhD and, I have a a friend, PhD, millionaire, self made millionaire in the fitness world, mid thirties, now going sperm donor route. She's really struggling to find a partner.

所以她将动用自己非常丰富的资源来抚养这些孩子，把他们带到世界上过上美好的生活。但不要搞错——这仍然是一个单亲家庭。对吧？这就是一个单亲家庭。

So she is going to use her very vast resources to be able to support these kids, to bring them into the world to have a fantastic life. But make no mistake. That's a single parent household. Right? That's a single parent household.

单亲家庭产生的后果在社会性方面似乎不太理想，女儿们表现并不特别好。单亲家庭的社会性行为率更高，这意味着更多的随意性行为，更复杂的性关系问题。但我们经常听到的是，单亲家庭的教育和就业结果平均往往更差。对女性、对处于这种情况的女孩来说，似乎并没有太大影响。所以无论你认为这种影响有多大，请将其加倍并仅施加在男孩身上。

The outcomes that you have from single parent households seem to be sociosexually, the daughters don't do particularly well. You have higher rates of sociosexuality, which is more casual sex, more complex complexes around sex from single parent households. But what we hear about a lot is that, education and employment outcomes at single parent households on average tend to be worse. For women, for the girls in that situation, doesn't really seem to impact them all that much. So however big you think that effect is, double it and put it just on boys.

似乎只有男孩存在这种问题。很合理的是，家庭中没有 patriarch（父权代表）可能无法管束一个顽劣难管的男孩。对于那些想要孩子且有资源的女性，我绝对支持。但任何人说这是最优方案，说这会很棒，那就不对了。再次强调，我不是说女性应该成为家庭奴仆，退出董事会回到厨房。

It's only boys that seem to have that kind of a problem. And quite rightly, you're not gonna have a patriarch in the family that's maybe able to deal with a rambunctious disagreeable boy. I I don't think for the women that want to have kids and you have the resources, absolutely. But for anyone to say that that's the optimal approach, that this is what would be amazing. And, again, I'm not saying women become domestic prostitutes, take yourself out of the boardroom and get yourself back in the kitchen.

这不是我们任何一方在这里希望女性做的事。但大多数人，十分之八没有孩子的女性到了40岁及以后，并非有意不要孩子。我们需要进行这场艰难的对话，警告人们不考虑未来关系影响的后果。你的时间比你想象的少。你需要意识到这一点。

Like, that's not what either of us are saying that we want women to do here. But most people, eight out of ten women that are childless once they reach their 40s and later didn't intend to not be. This is a very difficult conversation that we need to have to warn people about the impact of not thinking ahead in their relationships. You have less time than you think. You need to be aware of that.

另一方面，当我们再次谈论男性时，如果我删除约会应用，那么，你知道，我们做的第一件事就是删除所有约会应用，但这仍然让我们处在一个存在色情内容中这种伪性爱虚假数字关系的世界。哦，是的。色情内容仍然存在。所以我在想那50%的男性。我假设，虽然我不认识这50%的男性，但我猜测色情内容可能是他们替代所缺失的联系和性亲密的重要疗法。

If I on the other side of the coin when we're talking about men again, if I delete the dating apps then, so, you know, first thing we're doing, we're deleting all dating apps, that still leaves us in a world where there's this kind of pseudosexual fake digital relationship in porn. Oh, yeah. Pornography still exists. So I'm wondering about that 50% of men. I'm assuming, and I don't know this 50% of men, but I'm assuming pornography is probably quite a big part of their replacement therapy for the connection and sexual intimacy that they're missing.

正确。所以我有一个理论叫做男性镇静假说。对吧？有一个现象叫做年轻男性综合征。如果一个社会中有大量没有伴侣、没有孩子的男性，那往往是一个不稳定的文明。

Correct. So I have a theory called the male sedation hypothesis. Right? There is a phenomenon called young male syndrome. If you have a large number of non partnered childless men in a society, that tends to be an unstable civilization.

历史上有许多例子表明，那些没有理由守规矩、不认同将一切凝聚在一起的社会契约的男性，往往会造成问题。他们反抗，制造骚乱，喷涂汽车，推倒老奶奶，实施家庭暴力和性侵犯。已经发生多起由不满、被边缘化的年轻男性（incel）进行的可怕杀戮，但这并没有与无性行为比例的增加同步上升。对吧？它已经增加了两倍。

There's examples throughout history where men who don't have a reason to behave, who don't buy into the social contract of cohesing everything together, tend to cause problems. They revolt, they cause riots, they spray paint cars and they push over granny and they do domestic violence and sexual assault. There have been a number of incel killings of disaffected, disenfranchised young men that have gone out and done horrible things, but it is not increasing in line with the amount of sexlessness. Right? It's tripled.

2008年到2018年，从8%增加到28%，翻了三倍。但相关的年轻男性综合征事件数量并没有相应增加。所以你会想，好吧，这里发生了什么事。有什么正在导致男性不采取这种在整个历史上都非常明确的反应。

2008 to 2018 tripled eight percent to twenty eight percent. The number of associated young male syndrome incidents hasn't increased in kind. So you think, okay. Something going on here. Something is happening which is causing men to not enact this, very well established throughout all of history, response.

当男性进入一段关系时，他们的睾酮水平会下降。当他们有了孩子后，睾酮会再次下降，而降低的睾酮会减少冒险行为。如果你刚有了孩子或正处于一段关系中，就不要尝试从悬崖上跳下去，因为那样可能会导致孩子失去父亲。你可以理解为什么这种行为具有适应性。所以问题是，为什么如今年轻男性的单身率比以往任何时候都高，但我们却没有看到相应程度的暴力和混乱。

When men get into a relationship, their testosterone drops. When they have kids, their testosterone drops again and reduced testosterone reduces risk taking behavior. If you've just had a kid or you're in a relationship, don't try and jump off that cliff because then maybe you've got a kid that doesn't have a father anymore. You can see why that would be adaptive. So the question is, why is it that we have greater rates of sexlessness amongst young men ever than ever, but we don't have this in kind amount of violence and and disruption.

我相信，色情内容、电子游戏和社交媒体正在麻醉男性，使他们不再追求地位和繁殖行为。我认为色情内容提供了一个精确剂量的、极其微弱的繁殖暗示，这有助于抑制男性外出追求女性的欲望。我认为电子游戏的作用是创造一种同志情谊和目标追求行为的感觉

And it's my belief that porn, video games, and social media are sedating men out of this status seeking and reproductive seeking behavior. So I think that you get a titrated dose, just an ever so slight, just a little, little bit of, reproductive cues from porn that helps to sedate men's desire to go out and pursue women. I think that what video games do is they create a sense of camaraderie, of goal seeking behavior

地位。

Status.

在网络世界中的地位。它满足了男性过去通过年轻男性综合征革命试图实现的许多目标。所以我相信这种男性麻醉正在发生。现在，在一个危险的男性社会和一个被麻醉的男性社会之间做选择，目前被麻醉的男性群体稍微好一些。但这只是因为我们现在处于和平时期。

Status within the, online world. It satisfies a lot of what men would have been trying to achieve with that young male syndrome, revolution in the past. So my belief is that we have this male sedation occurring. Now, given the choice between a society of men who are dangerous and a society of men who are sedated, right now, the group of sedated men are ever so marginally better. But the only reason for that is that we're at a time of peace.

如果今天有外星文明来到地球，我们能做的最好事情就是关闭所有色情内容，关闭社交媒体。你需要让男性愤怒。当有东西可以让他们发泄愤怒时，你需要让男性激动起来。但现在没有。如果他们真的激动起来，只会煽动事端，造成问题，这将会很糟糕。

If there was an alien civilization that came down to earth today, the best thing we could do would be to switch off all porn, turn off old social media. You want men to be angry. You want men to be riled up when there is something that they can direct that anger at. Right now, there isn't. And if they did, it would just foment and it would cause problems and it would be it would be bad.

对吧？所以是的，这种对繁殖追求行为的麻醉在某种程度上让世界变得更平静，但这并不是特别...你不会说这是最优解，对吧？这并不理想

Right? So yes, the sedating of this kind of reproductive seeking behaviour in a way has made the world calmer But it's not particularly You wouldn't say it's optimal, right? It isn't great

对吧？

Right?

哦不，绝对不是。我是说，你知道NoFap运动的兴起，那些自称不手淫的男性，他们自我认同为不手淫者，他们有NoFap连续天数记录。你听说过这个吗？史蒂夫，你居然没听说过NoFap。

Oh no, absolutely not. I mean, you know, the advent of the NoFap movement, men who identify as not masturbating, they self identify as not masturbating, they have NoFap streaks. You heard of this? Steve, you've not heard of no fap.

没听说过。我平时都在

No. I'd hang around in the

不对 你可是混网络的。你怎么可能没听说过NoFap？

wrong You're the online. How have you not heard of no fap?

你怎么就听说过？但是，克里斯。

How have you? But, Chris.

听着。我 我了解我的NoFap。好吗？网上有一个非常庞大的男性群体已经戒除了色情内容。这就是我们之前讨论的内容。

Look. I I know about my no fap. Okay? So there is a very big community of guys online that have recanted porn. The same this is what we were talking about before.