回放最多时刻：眼球运动能治愈创伤吗？贝塞尔·范德科尔克解析EMDR疗法！

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每一种风格，每一个家。

Every style, every home.

你认为有多少人——也许这是个荒谬的问题——但你认为有多少比例的人以某种形式经历过创伤？你如何定义它？

How many people do you think I mean, this is maybe a ridiculous question, but how many people what percentage of people do you think have trauma in some form? How you define it?

数据显示，四分之一的人遭受过身体虐待，五分之一的人遭受过性虐待，八分之一的孩子目睹过父母间的暴力行为，等等。所以，这不是一个非此即彼的问题，不是要么受过创伤要么没受过。但当我与一群专业人士交谈时——我经常这样做——我假设至少半数人能从内心深处理解创伤的含义。

You know, the figures are a quarter of people get physically abused, one out of five people get sexually abused, one of eight kids witnesses violence being their parents, etcetera, etcetera. So, you know, if I sit in a room, you know, it's not a binary issue. It's not either you were traumatized, you didn't get traumatized. But when I talk to a room of professionals, which I do a lot, I assume that at least half the group viscerally knows what trauma means.

创伤对我的大脑有什么影响？你说过你做过很多神经影像扫描。如果我受过创伤，你扫描我的大脑，能看到什么异常吗？

And what is trauma doing to my brain? You said you've done a lot of neuroimaging scans. If I was traumatized and you scanned my brain, is there something you could see?

不一定。我能看到你的大脑可能与他人不同。我可以选取特定人群进行平均分析，然后说，哦，中脑导水管周围灰质激活稍多，岛叶白质稍少。这样你能看到大脑中某些连接模式。

Not necessarily. I can see how your brain may be different from other people's brains. I may take a particular population. You can average it out, and you can say, oh, there's a little more activation of the periaqueductal gray, a little bit less of the white insulin. So you see certain patterns of connectivity in the brain.

但在某种程度上，我认为我们对大脑了解很多，却又知之甚少。人们往往高估了脑部图像能教会我们的东西。就像哈勃望远镜或韦伯望远镜，大脑如同一个宇宙，而我们的技术远不足以真正理解大脑那些难以置信的复杂连接。不过过去二十年里，我们确实也发现了一些东西。

But to some degree, you know, I think we learn a lot about the brain, but we don't know much about the brain. And I think people tend to overstate how much the brain pictures can teach us. You know, love the Hubble's telescope or the Webb telescope. You know, brain is like a universe and our technology is very inadequate to really know about all the unbelievably complex connections the brain has. But we have learned a few things in the last twenty years.

那么创伤是如何影响大脑的？

So how does trauma affect the brain?

它会影响大脑中某个部分——我称之为大脑的'蟑螂中枢'，即位于杏仁核下方的导水管周围灰质。如今人人都知道杏仁核这个词。这部分大脑负责警示你处于危险中。当遭受创伤时，这个位于脑干深处的小区域会持续处于激活状态。

It affects the brain that you tend to, there's one part of your brain that I call the cockroach center of your brain, the periakial gray, that lights up itself underneath the amygdala. Everybody knows the word amygdala these days. Okay. So The part of your brain that tells you that you're in danger. When you're traumatized, you're likely that that little part of your brain, way back in the brainstem, is firing all the time.

你会不断产生'我处于危险中'的警报。这种反应始于非常基础的感官层面。你并不清楚具体危险是什么，但就是莫名感到恐惧。

All the time you go like, I'm in danger. I'm in danger. I'm in danger. And so that's where it starts in a very elementary sensory level. You don't know what the danger is, but you just feel that you should be scared.

而大脑其他区域比如脑岛——负责连接身体感觉和躯体感知的部分，对很多人来说会关闭功能。因为创伤本质上是一种心碎与肠绞般的内脏体验。如果长期如此，你会学会关闭这部分大脑功能，逐渐丧失对身体的感觉。或者说，你不再那么敏锐地感知身体，同时也失去了鲜活的生存体验。

And then there's certain parts, other parts of your brain, for example, your insula, which makes the connection with your physical sensations and your body awareness. And for many people get shut down because trauma, basically the experience of trauma is a visceral experience of heartbreak and gutvenge. And if you have a lot of that, you can learn to shut that part of your brain down so you don't feel your body so much anymore. Or you don't feel your body so much. You don't feel very alive either.

虽然不再时刻感到恐惧，但很可能会想通过药物来偶尔找回活着的感觉。诸如此类。是的。

You don't feel so scared all the time. But it's likely that you will want to take some drugs to make yourself feel alive sometimes. Stuff like that. Yeah.

你刚才说我大脑的那个部位，是在杏仁核周围下方？

So the part of my brain, you said just under the around the amygdala?

对，在下方。

Below the yep.

在杏仁核下方。受过创伤的人，通常在那里会有某种功能障碍吗？

Below the amygdala. People that are traumatized, they have some kind of dysfunction in that typically?

嗯，功能障碍就是它持续放电。不停地放电。

Well, dysfunction is that it keeps firing. Keeps firing.

那这会导致什么

And how does that make

然后杏仁核，所以会有一种持续存在的潜意识恐惧感。

to your And then the amygdala, so there's a constant sense of subliminal dread.

那是焦虑吗？

Is that anxiety?

焦虑已经是较高层次的心理功能了。好吧。它更基础。就像你的狗在发抖。对。

Anxiety is already too high of mental functioning. Okay. It's more elementary. It's like your dog shaking. Like yeah.

我女儿收养了一只狗。它在家待了两年后，现在仍然会在我家里走来走去。

My daughter has adopted a dog. She was at home. And two years later, the dog still walks through my house.

你收养了一只狗，但它在你家里仍然发抖。

You've adopted a dog and it shakes in your house still.

是啊，是啊。但始终不太自在。无论你见过她多少次，就是没法完全放松。

Yeah. Yeah. But still never quite comfortable. And that's how many times you meet her. Never quite comfortable.

所以当有人说自己被触发时？

So when someone says they're triggered?

不，触发属于更高层面的反应。

No. Trigger is in the higher level thing.

好吧。

Okay.

那么下一层级确实是由杏仁核部分介导的触发反应。如果你的杏仁核是烟雾探测器，它会变得过度敏感，将小事放大。你可能对我说的小事，我会当成世界上最侮辱人的话。于是你不断被各种事情触发，这让你觉得自己在严重伤害我。而问题不在于我是否过度敏感。

So then the next level is indeed the trigger that is in part mediated by the amygdala. If your amygdala is your smoke detector, that tends to become hypersensitive so that minor things get blown up. And a minor thing that you may say to me, I take as the most insulting thing in the world. And so you're constantly triggered by things and that makes you feel like you are doing terrible things to me. And it's not like I'm hypersensitive.

当你状态不佳时，那是你的问题而非我的问题。不，当你状态不佳时，我能感受到你的低落，然后我们就会一起陷入麻烦。

And when you have an off day, that is your issue and not my issue. No. When you have an off day, I feel your off day, and then we start getting into trouble together.

我这里有一张图片，展示的是当大脑的烟雾探测器

I've got a picture here of what the brain looks like when the brain smoke detector

对，对。

Yeah. Yeah.

触发时大脑的样子。当它

Goes off. Is that what it looks like on the brain when it's

那是某个特定的人，每个人的情况都不完全相同。

That is one particular guy, and nobody is exactly the same as everybody else.

你能给我解释一下这个吗？

Can you explain this to me?

但基本上，你在这里看到的是这个人正在重温他经历的一场可怕车祸。你看到的是大脑右后部，即右侧颞顶交界处活跃起来，那是大脑的情绪部分。所以你会说，天啊，天啊，我吓坏了。但没有认知活动。基本上，大脑左侧关闭了。

But basically, what what you see here is this is a guy who is reliving a terrible car accident he was involved with. What you see here is that the right posterior part of the brain, the temporal parietal junction on the right side of the brain fires, and that's the feeding part of your brain. So you go, oh my god, oh my god, I'm terrified. But there's no cognition. Basically, the left side of the brain shuts down.

所以当你处于创伤中时，你不会变成一个理智的人。实际上你会变得有点语无伦次。我们所有人，在真正愤怒、沮丧时，都会表达不清，但有很多感受。然后我展示的部分是，当这个人重温他的创伤时，大脑的这两个部分离线了。这是背外侧前额叶皮层。

So when you're in your trauma, you don't become you're not a reasonable person. You actually become a little bit of a blubbering idiot. All of us, when we really are angry, upset, and not very articulate, but we have a lot of feelings. And then the piece that I showed is that as he is this guy is reliving his trauma, these two parts of the brain go offline. This is the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex.

那是大脑中负责计时功能的部分。所以如果我们之间发生不愉快的事情，我会想，再过半小时就好了，先暂时忍耐一下。但当你遭受创伤时，这个计时器就消失了，只剩下当下的感受，你会失去对时间维度的感知。

That's the part of the brain that's the timekeeper of your brain. And so if something unpleasant happens between us, let's say, I'll go, oh, it's another half hour and I'll be okay. So let me just sort of put off with this. But when you get traumatized, the timekeeper disappears and this is all there is. You lose your sense of perspective.

这就是创伤状态下的反应。由于大脑计时功能宕机，你无法区分过去与现在，所有感受都如同实时发生而非记忆重现。明白我的意思吗？

And that is what happens when you're in your trauma. You don't know the difference between the past and the present because the timekeeper of your brain goes offline and whatever is you're feeling is real as opposed to be feeling like a memory. So if you Do you get it?

明白。对于看不到脑部扫描图的人，我简单描述下：右侧显示极度活跃，左侧看起来完全处于关闭状态。

Yeah. So for people that can't see it in this brain scan, what I'm basically seeing is the right side is extremely activated. The left side looks like it's off.

关闭状态。

Off.

对。然后有两个未激活的空白区域，被称为门区。

Yeah. And then there's these two blanks empty spaces that aren't activated called the doors.

背外侧前额叶皮层。外侧前额叶...这是大脑中赋予你时间感的系统组成部分。就像婴儿也没有时间概念，任何事件对他们来说都是绝对当下的体验。

Dorsolateral prefrontal cortex. There's lateral prefrontal That's part of the system in the brain that give you a sense of time. Okay. And as long as you have a sense of it's like little babies don't have a sense of time either. So, like, whatever happens, it happens totally.

你会看到孩子逐渐成长，开始建立时间维度认知——虽然此刻正在发生，但明天就会不同。

And you see a child slowly grow, and they get a sense of perspective. It's happening right now, but tomorrow it will be different.

好的。所以这就是我所说的，大概当你感到焦虑的时候，对吧，当你开始思考未来的时候？

Okay. So that's when I mean, presumably, when you get anxiety, right, when you start thinking about the future?

关键在于拥有这样的视角：这一切正在当下发生。此刻，我非常害怕。但当我回到家，当我打电话给朋友，我就会感觉好一些。因此，你需要具备这种视角的能力，而当你处于创伤中时，这种视角就会消失，你就会变成一个受创伤的人。

It is about having the perspective of this is happening right now. Right now, I'm really scared. But the moment I go home, the moment I call my friend, I'll feel better. And so that you need to have the capacity for perspective, and that perspective goes offline when you're in your trauma, and you become a traumatized person.

所以这个特定的人，我这里有的这个脑部扫描，这个家伙遭遇了一场车祸。是的。而我看到的这个被触发的脑部扫描，是他被放进功能性磁共振成像扫描仪里的结果。是的。他们故意触发他，看看会发生什么。

So this particular person, this brain scan that I have here, this guy was in a car accident. Yeah. And the triggered brain that I'm looking at here is he was basically put in a an FMRI scanner. Yeah. And he was intentionally triggered to see what would happen Exactly.

在他的情况下，可能是给他看了一场车祸之类的。

In his So he was shown maybe a car accident or something.

不，不。具体是他自己的那场车祸。

No. No. Specifically his car accident.

哦，你们给他看了他自己那场车祸的图片

Oh, you showed him a picture of his

你看到了什么？听到了什么？闻到了什么？当时在想什么？非常具体的感官细节。

What did you see? What did you hear? What did you smell? What were you thinking? Very specific sensory details.

好的。所以你不是别人的感官，而是你自己的感官细节。

Okay. So you're Not somebody else's sensory your sensory details.

而他大脑的右侧被照亮了？

And the right side of his brain was illuminated?

是的。他大脑的光亮部分变得非常活跃。是的。但被抑制的是他大脑中的计时器。所以他无法躺在那里说，哦，我在回忆昨天发生的事。

Yeah. Light side of his brain became very active. Yeah. But what got inactivated was that timekeeper of his brain. So he could not lie there and say, oh, I'm remembering what happened to me yesterday.

他正在重新经历昨天发生的事。瞬间。你会感觉它正在此刻发生。这就是创伤的本质。创伤不是记忆。

He's reliving what happened yesterday. Instantly. You feel like it's happening right now. And that's the nature of trauma. Trauma is not a memory.

它是一种重新经历。

It's a reliving.

你是有意识地重新经历它，还是你的潜意识在重新经历它？

Are you consciously reliving it, or is your subconscious reliving it?

感觉它正在此刻发生。所有形式的创伤都是如此吗？但不是它正在此刻发生，而是我的感觉正在此刻发生。

Feel like it's happening right now. With all forms of trauma? But not it's happening right now, but my feeling is happening right now.

在我的身体里？

In my body?

你难道不知道这些感受其实源自你父亲当年打你的那段时光。现在我有同样的感觉，因为我不同意你的观点。

You you don't know that the feelings actually belong to the time that your dad used to beat you. It is now I feel the same way because I disagree with you.

所以我过去被触发过，那种瞬间的战或逃反应，因为发生了某些事或其他原因。它是即刻发生的。所以虽然我不觉得自己回到了过去，但我的身体确实感觉像是

So I've been triggered in the past, and I felt that sort of instant fight or flight response because something's happened or whatever. And it's instantaneous. So although I don't feel like I'm back there, my body does feel like

于是它回来了，人们对此感到困惑。他们说，哦，你重温了过去。不。实际上，你并未意识到自己重温了过去，因为过去就是现在。嗯。

And it's back so people are confused about it. They say, oh, you relive the past. No. Actually, you're not aware that you relive the past because the past is the present. Mhmm.

所以你并不会想，哦，这让我想起我四岁时被父亲殴打的情景。不。感觉就像你现在正在打我一样。

So you don't think, oh, this reminds me about the time that my dad used to be beat me when I was four years old. No. It feels like you are beating me right now.

那么对于这位经历过车祸的先生来说，有没有办法能让他永远摆脱这种困扰呢？哦，当然有。

And is there a way for this particular gentleman here who's been through that car crash to ever stop this Oh, yeah.

是的。他恢复得相当不错。

Yeah. He's done quite well.

他表现得相当不错。

He's done quite well.

实际上他做了EMDR治疗，接受了眼动脱敏疗法。

He did EMDR, actually. He got eye movement desensitization.

那他的治疗效果如何？

And what was his results?

他现在是个正常人。他...他...他能正常生活了。他没事了，不再是那个受创伤的人了。

He's an all right guy. He's he's he's functioning. He's fine. He's no longer a traumatized person.

你在临床实践中见过最显著的改善案例是什么？

What's the most radical improvement you've seen in your clinical practice?

哦，真正意义上的重获新生。患者们直接宣告创伤结束了。

Oh, really, really coming to life. People just saying it's over.

给我举个最典型的例子。

Give me the most the best example.

举个好例子，就是我昨天给大家看的那段关于一位女士的录像带。又是一起可怕的车祸，她当时浑身冰冷、心烦意乱、惊恐万分。但仅仅三次治疗后，我们再谈起这件事时，她说：没错，这件糟心事确实发生在我身上。

The good example is the videotape I showed people yesterday of a woman. Again, terrible car accident, freezing, upset, freaked out. And then three sessions later, we go talk about it. She says, yep. This shitty thing happened to me.

我遭遇了车祸，受到剧烈震荡，头部肿了起来。天啊，那段日子简直糟透了。但现在——我有了孙女，我能自己开车去看她，我完全没事了。

I was in this car accident and I was jolted for it and my head was swollen. And boy, that was terrible back then. But I'm I have a granddaughter and I drive my car to my granddaughter and I'm fine.

只用了三次治疗？

Three sessions it took?

对，三次。我们在迷幻疗法中经常见到这种效果。

Three sessions. Yeah. And we saw it in psychedelic therapy all the time.

这三次治疗里你们做了什么？

What did you do in those three sessions?

在患者眼前晃动手指。说真的，对我来说，眼动脱敏与再加工疗法（EMDR）就像入门毒品——抱歉这么说。我写过三本关于创伤后应激障碍的书，实际上早在84年左右就出版了第一本提到PTSD这个术语的书。

Wiggle your fingers in front of people's eyes. I mean, for for me for me, EMDR was really the gateway drug. Like sorry. You know, I've written three books about PTSD. I actually wrote the very first book in which the word PTSD exists in '84 or something.

但当时没人知道怎么治疗。所以虽然我是世界知名专家，却对治疗方法束手无策——因为患者不断闪回创伤场景，没人知道如何阻止。后来有人向我介绍EMDR疗法，我根本不信。他们说：没错，就是在患者眼前移动手指，让他们在回忆创伤时眼球跟着左右转动。

But they didn't know how to treat it. So I'm a world renowned expert, but I have no idea how to treat it because people keep reliving their trauma and they don't know how to stop that. And then somebody starts telling me about EMDR and I don't believe a word of it. And they say, yes, you move your fingers in front of people's eyes. I mean, you move your eye from side to side as you relive the trauma.

然后我说，这太疯狂了。所有人都听到了。这太疯狂了。接着人们开始尝试并向我展示它的工作原理。我当时的反应就是，哇。

And I go, that's crazy. Everybody hears it. That's crazy. And then people start doing it and they show me how it works. I go like, wow.

确实，在我们研究的人群中有部分人，在接受几次EMDR治疗后表示：是的，那段经历确实糟糕。但它已经结束了。属于过去。现在并没有发生。

And people indeed had a certain subsample of people we studied indeed after a few sessions of EMDR go like, yeah, that really sucked. But it's over. It belongs to the past. It's not happening right now.

你是说在人们眼前晃动手指能帮助治愈他们的心理创伤？

You're telling me that wiggling your fingers in front of people's eyes can help heal their trauma.

当然我们随后进行了小型研究，为此我们花了十五年才获得足够资金来观察眼球左右移动时的反应。最终发现，当你在回忆创伤经历时来回移动眼球，会激活颞顶联合区（产生自我感知）与脑岛（身体感知）之间的神经通路。这使得大脑能够确认：是的，这事发生在我身上，但已是过去式。这些神经通路让大脑得以——

Well, then of course we had to do a little research, which took us fifteen years to get enough funding to get do it, to see what happens when you move your eyes back and forth. And then we discovered that if you move your eyes back and forth, as you we call it traumatic experiences, you activate certain pathways between the temporal parietal junction, which gives you a sense of self and your insula, which is your of your body. So your brain is able to say, oh yeah, this is what happened to me, but it happened to me in the past. So these are pathways that makes it possible for your brain to

建立这种区分。在相关研究中，最终结论如何？其疗效是否得到验证？

make that distinction. And in the research that's been done on this, did the outcome, what was the conclusion in terms of its efficacy?

在我们的研究中，78%成年期遭遇创伤（如被陌生人袭击或强奸）的患者完全康复。但这不占多数，因为我们接诊的大部分是童年创伤患者，治疗要复杂得多。

Oh, in terms of, in our research, seventy eight percent of the people who had adult onset trauma, so being assaulted or raped by a stranger, seventy eight percent of them were completely cured. But that's not the majority of people we see because most people we see have early childhood trauma, which is much more complicated to treat.

童年创伤对这种疗法的抵抗性更强，更难以消除

Early childhood trauma is much more sort of stubborn and resistant to this treatment

是的，因为你早期的童年经历塑造了你是谁。所以如果你18岁去了一所名牌大学，你确实会以那所大学为标识，但它不会彻底把你变成一个全新的人。它成为你身份的一部分。但如果你在生命的早期阶段在某个家庭长大，你实际上就变成了那样的人。而且早期的烙印是非常深刻的。

than Yeah, because your early childhood experiences create who you are. So if you go to fancy college when you're 18, you do become identified by that college, but it doesn't radically change you into a new person. It becomes part of your identity. But if you grow up in a certain family early on in your life, you actually become that. And you that the imprint is very deep early on.

是的。

Yeah.

所以它被称为眼动脱敏与再加工治疗。我刚才查了一些关于它的统计数据。上面说它已经被广泛研究，有证据支持它在各种创伤后应激障碍（PTSD）情况下的疗效。2034年对26项随机对照试验的荟萃分析发现，EMDR显著减轻了PTSD症状，效果量很大。关于抑郁症，2024年的一项系统性综述和荟萃分析涵盖了25项研究和1000多名参与者，报告称它缓解了抑郁症状。

So it's called eye movement desensitization and reprocessing treatment. I was just looking up some stats about it. It says it's been extensively studied with evidence supporting its efficacy across various conditions with PTSD. A 2034 meta analysis of 26 randomised controlled trials found that EMDR significantly reduced PTSD symptoms with a large effect size. Depression, a 2024 systemic review and meta analysis encompassing 25 studies and more than 1,000 participants reported that it alleviated depressive symptoms.

同一项2014年的荟萃分析指出，EMDR在PTSD患者中显著减轻了焦虑症状，效果量很大。最后，2024年的系统性综述和个体参与数据荟萃分析得出结论，EMDR与其他心理治疗对PTSD同样有效，实现了可比的症状减轻和缓解率。你能给我演示一下它是怎么工作的吗？你能在我身上试试吗？

The same 2014 meta analysis noted that EMDR led to significant reductions in anxiety symptoms among PTSD patients with a large effect. And finally, the 2024 systemic review and individual participation data meta analysis concluded that EMDR is as effective as other psychological treatments for PTSD, achieving comparable symptom reduction and remission rates. Can you show me how it works? Can you do it on me?

我可以。我能挪动我的椅子吗？

I could. Can I move my chair?

当然可以。你得靠过来一点。

Of course you can. You're to come closer.

那么你能回忆起最近一次相当不愉快的经历吗？好的。当你能想起来时，能否记起当时你看到了什么？嗯。你能记得当时那些声音听起来是怎样的吗？

So can you bring to mind an really sort of rather unpleasant experience you've had not too long ago? Yeah. And when you can you bring to mind what you saw at that point? Yeah. Can you remember what the voices sounded like at that point?

或者不管它是什么？能想起什么声音吗？是的。你还记得当时身体的感觉吗？记得。

Or whatever it was? Any sounds come to mind? Yeah. Do you remember what your body felt like back then? Yeah.

好的。你能回忆起当时的想法，或者现在能想起你在想什么吗？可以。好的。那么此刻回忆起来的感受有多鲜活？

Okay. Can you remember what you were thinking or bring to mind what you were thinking? Yeah. Okay. So how vivid is your feeling right now of recollecting it?

大概六七分的样子

Like a six, seven out of

满分十分。好的。保持这个状态。现在用眼睛跟随我的手指。现在看着我，看着我。

10. Okay. So stay there. Now follow my finger with your eyes. So look at my look at me right now.

深呼吸。我们现在做这个时，你脑海里浮现出什么？

Deep breath. So what comes to your mind right now as we're doing this?

我感觉平静。嗯。是的。我...我只是感觉不到平静。

I feel calm. Uh-huh. Yeah. I I just don't feel calm.

好的。那么当你回到刚才的感受时，现在感觉如何？

Okay. So when you go back to what you were just feeling, what's it like now?

很难回想起当初为何困扰。这是最贴切的描述了。

It's hard to recall why I was bothered. That's the best way to describe it.

这就是诡异之处。

That is the weird stuff.

明白吗？为什么会这样？仅仅是因为...为什么会这样？

You know? Why is that? Is that just because why is that?

不。你看，这正是他作品的伟大之处。我们不知道线性逻辑，也不清楚情感印记现在究竟消失到哪里去了，但它确实消失了。当然，如果我们提起比你经历更糟糕的事，需要更长时间处理，还会牵扯出许多其他问题。

No. See, that is that is what's so great about his work. We don't know the linearity. And we don't know where the hell the emotional imprint is gone now, but it is. And, you know, of course, if we bring up something much worse than what you had going to, It takes much longer and a lot of other stuff comes up.

但眼动疗法似乎能在大脑建立新的联想机制。比如首次接受治疗时，我遭遇了极其恶劣的事。起初我非常痛苦，治疗过程中——不知你是否也有类似体验——我眼前浮现童年时在餐厅吃饭的画面，还有小学操场玩耍的景象。

But somehow EMDR seems to do, it creates new associative processes in the brain. So let's say, first time people did EMDR on me, something really very, very nasty had happened to me. And I started off being very upset. And then during the EMDR, don't know if this happened to you, I had images of sitting in my dining room table as a kid. And I had images of playing in a playground in primary school.

有些记忆始终无法浮现。我们暂停治疗后发现确实需要继续。是的，那段经历确实糟糕。关键是你从未告诉我你的遭遇。

Something don't come to mind. And then we stopped it and it needed. So, yeah, that really sucked. Time to go on. An important part of this, you did not tell me what you were going through.

不告诉你是因为我对语言存疑，语言永远是互动过程。如果我要求你描述经历，你会自我过滤——有些事可能令人尴尬或不愿让我知晓。因此我们绕过这个言语加工过程，避免你对其赋予特定意义，转而重组大脑感知这些事件的核心方式。刚才你已经隐约看到我的处理手法了。

No. Because I'm suspicious of language, because language is always an interactive process. And if I would ask you to tell me what happened, you will filter yourself because certain things may be embarrassing or you don't want me to know about it. And so we we circumvent this whole verbal process of you're making meaning out of it and we reorganize some core ways in which your brain is perceiving this. So so you saw a little bit of this very, in my way.

对我来说，当我第一次看到这个时，我完全被震撼了，心想我必须研究它。所以当他们引用研究时，主要的研究是由我完成的。美国国立卫生研究院资助了它。但我也成为了最后一个获得美国国立卫生研究院资助进行EMDR研究的人。

For me, when I first saw this, I was blown away by it and thought I need to study this. So when they quoted studies, the main study was done by me. NIH funded it. But I was also the last time that somebody got funded for NIH, for EMDR.

你刚才听到的是之前一集中被反复播放的片段。如果你想听完整集，我已将链接放在下方。查看描述部分。谢谢。

What you just listened to was a most replayed moment from a previous episode. If you wanna listen to that full episode, I've linked it down below. Check the description. Thank you.