演讲教练：骗子最爱用的这个词！别再说了，它让你显得软弱！说得越多，越像在撒谎！

我算不上技术天才，但我知道如果想让生意腾飞，现在就需要一个网站。幸好Bluehost让这一切变得简单。我用AI按自己的意愿定制、优化并实现了网站盈利。几分钟内，我的网站就上线了。简直难以置信。

I'm no tech genius, but I knew if I wanted my business to crush it, I needed a website now. Thankfully, Bluehost made it easy. I customized, optimized, and monetized everything exactly how I wanted with AI. In minutes, my site was up. I couldn't believe it.

搜索引擎工具甚至帮我吸引了更多访客。无论你的兴趣项目是什么，都能用Bluehost搭建。他们有30天退款保证，你有什么可损失的？立即访问bluehost.com（拼写为blueh0st.com）开始吧。

The search engine tools even helped me get more site visitors. Whatever your passion project is, you can set it up with Bluehost. With their thirty day money back guarantee, what do you got to lose? Head to bluehost.com. That's blueh0st.com to start now.

当有人贬低你、粗鲁无礼或不尊重你时，我们通常想立即反击，因为现在他们必须赢。但与其那样，我希望你这样做：第一，保持5到7秒沉默；第二，请对方重复刚才的话——因为在争论中，人们经常会收回说过的话。

When somebody is belittling you or being rude or being disrespectful, what we typically want to do is throw it right back because now they gotta win. Instead of that, here's what I would want you to do. One, you're gonna have five to seven seconds of silence. Two, you're gonna ask them to say it again. Because a lot of time in arguments, people take it back.

第三，有趣的部分来了。我希望你说——这才是你真正的力量所在，因为这表明掌控局面的是你，而失态的是对方。我是Jefferson Fisher，董事会认证的出庭律师，帮助人们解决冲突和问题。只需改变两个词，通过你接下来决定说的话，我就能改变你的人生——因为言语确实有改变一切的力量。

And three, this is where it gets fun. I want you to say, that's where your real power is because it shows that you're the one in control and they're the ones that are not. I'm Jefferson Fisher. I'm a board certified trial attorney, and I help people resolve conflict, resolve problems. And I can change two words and change your life just by what you decide to say next because what you say truly has the power to change everything.

比如我常教导：永远不要试图赢得争论。当你执着于赢时，往往会失去关系。这就是你赢得的奖品，恭喜啊。所以不要把争论看作要赢的东西，而要视为需要解开的结。

For example, I teach that you never want to win an argument. When you look to win an argument, you will often lose the relationship. That's your prize. Congrats. So instead of seeing arguments as something to win, see them as something to unravel.

如果你能直接问对方'我遗漏了什么？'，我保证这是应对艰难对话最有效的工具。

And if you can just ask them the question, what am I missing? I promise you, that is the most effective tool that you can use for difficult conversation.

但当你面对不喜欢的人时怎么办？应对不喜欢之人的秘诀是...然后你能帮我解释下这张图吗？

But what about when you're dealing with someone that you don't like? The secret to dealing with someone you don't like is to And then could you explain to me this image here?

这都是关于如何说不的技巧。该怎么学习呢？从...开始，以...结束

So this is all about how to say no. And how does one learn that? Start with then end with

真的？这个方法非常非常有效。我有很多疑问。最让我着迷的是，当我们查看Spotify、苹果和音频频道的后台数据时，发现大多数收听这档播客的听众还没有点击关注或订阅按钮——无论你在哪个平台收听。我想和你做个交易。

Really? That right there is very, very effective. I've got so many questions. I find it incredibly fascinating that when we look at the back end of Spotify and Apple and our audio channels the majority of people that watch this podcast haven't yet hit the follow button or the subscribe button wherever you're listening to this. I would like to make a deal with you.

如果你能帮个大忙点击订阅，我将从此刻直到永远不懈努力，让节目变得越来越好。订阅对我们的帮助超乎想象——节目影响力扩大意味着我们能升级制作、邀请所有你想见的嘉宾，继续做这份热爱的事业。若你能在收听平台点个关注，这对我意义重大。这是我唯一会向你请求的帮忙。

If you could do me a huge favor and hit that subscribe button I will work tirelessly from now until forever to make the show better and better and better and better. I can't tell you how much it helps when you hit that subscribe button. The show gets bigger which means we can expand the production bring in all the guests you want to see and continue to doing this thing we love. If you could do me that small favor and hit the follow button wherever you're listening to this, that would mean the world to me. That is the only favor I will ever ask you.

非常感谢您抽出时间。杰斐逊·费舍尔。我对您创作的许多内容以及这本非凡的书籍都深感着迷。如果我们从头开始，您是谁？以及您的

Thank you so much for your time. Jefferson Fisher. I'm incredibly intrigued by so many of the things that you produce content about, but also this phenomenal book. So if we if we start from the beginning, who who are you? And what is

使命是什么？我是杰斐逊·费舍尔，一名经董事会认证的出庭律师。我教人们如何减少争论，更有力地表达。我的使命是通过改变人们接下来决定说的话，来帮助他们改变一切。

the mission that you're on? I'm Jefferson Fisher. I'm a board certified trial attorney. And I teach people how to argue less and say more. And I'm on a mission to help change everything about someone simply by what they decide to say next.

什么是出庭律师？就是律师吗？

What is a trial attorney? Is that a lawyer?

是的，就是律师，两者是一回事。作为出庭律师您具体做什么？我帮助人们解决冲突和问题。当你与他人产生矛盾时，你有选择权——

Yeah. It's a lawyer, attorney, same thing. And what do you do as a trial attorney? So I help people resolve conflict, resolve problems. So if you have a problem with someone, you have a choice.

要么直接挥拳相向，要么提起诉讼。很多时候，对方造成的伤害无法原样奉还，法律上唯一的方式就是用金钱补偿。在拉丁美洲，我们就是这样解决冲突的——

You go and just punch them in the mouth, or do you sue them? A lot of the times, it's something that somebody has hurt you that they cannot give back to you. So the only way they do that in the law is to compensate them with money. And so you can sue just about anybody. So that's how we resolve conflict here in Latin America.

英国和诉讼制度也是如此。我们的工作就是代表他人进行辩护。

It's same for The UK and litigation. So what we do is we advocate on behalf of other people.

所以您身处法庭，与另一位出庭律师对抗，本质上是在为您的委托人争取权益。

So you're in the courtroom, and you're against another trial attorney, essentially, trying to make the case for your party.

完全正确，是的先生。

Exactly. Yes, sir.

但这难道不归根结底取决于您的表达能力、说服力，以及让别人相信您的能力吗？难道不完全是

But isn't that doesn't that come down to your ability to articulate yourself and to persuade and to convince someone of your fa Isn't Wholeheartedly.

没错。正如我所说，我给出的言辞，可能意味着当事人能否重获内心平静，或是失去一切的关键。

Yeah. Right. Yeah. What I say, the words that I give, are can mean the difference between somebody getting their peace of mind back or losing everything.

那么一个人是如何学习的？比如你是怎么学会的？你那方面的技能从何而来？因为你被认为是所在领域最顶尖的人物之一。那么你是在哪里学习的？

And how does one learn? Like, how did you learn that? Where did your skill come from in that regard? Because you're regarded as one of the very best at what you do. So where did you learn?

我是第五代庭审律师。所以当其他孩子放学后可能在玩耍时，我却会被接到父亲的取证现场，因为那时只有他能接我。我拿着黄色记事本坐在角落涂鸦，而他完成剩余取证工作。或者我去观摩他的庭审，看过无数次结案陈词。

So I am a fifth generation trial attorney. So I grew up, while other kids were maybe playing when they got home, I got picked up and taken to my dad's deposition because my dad was the only one who could get me at that time. And so I sat in the corner with a yellow notepad, doodling while he is finishing the rest of his deposition. Or I'd go to watch his trial. I saw lots of closing arguments.

因此我得以亲眼见证法庭故事。任何参与过诉讼的人都是出色的故事讲述者。你能听到他们如何在给出答案前巧妙提问，真正前排观摩诉讼如何进行、如何说服他人，以及对话中推动进展的关键支点。

And so I got to see firsthand courtroom stories. I mean, any of these people who've been in trial litigation, they're all wonderful storytellers. So you get to hear that and hear how they ask questions before they say they give an answer. And so you get to really add a first row view of how litigation happens and how to persuade and what are the levers in conversation that push that forward progress.

你写过关于对话的书《少争论，多交谈》。这对刚点进这个对话的普通人来说为什么重要？

You've written the book on conversation, argue less, talk more. Why does it matter? To the average person listening now that's just clicked on this conversation, why does it matter to them?

有人教你弹奏乐器，而我告诉你该按哪些和弦。我给你乐谱。一旦你找准定位，甚至在你的声音里，真正重要的是你说出的具体词汇。我只需改动两句话、两个词，就能通过你接下来选择表达的内容改变你的人生。

Yeah. Where some people would teach you how to play an instrument, I tell you what chords to play. I give you the sheet music. And so once you know where you are, even in your voice, what matters are the actual words that you say. And I can change two sentences, two words, and change your life just by what you decide to say next.

因为你整个人生的轨迹都取决于沟通方式和冲突处理能力。某段关系的结束很可能源于某种沟通模式，这又将你引向新际遇；你的职业处境、播客中的表现，归根结底都取决于你即时的沟通状态。

Because where you've been in your whole life comes down to your communication and how you handle conflict. Where you left one relationship because of most likely some type of communication led you to another, or where you are in your job, or where you are in a podcast. It all comes down to what you've communicated and where you are in the conversation at all times.

你真认为这具有决定性影响吗？绝对如此。如果我成为10分的沟通者，好比世界最佳沟通者，你认为我生活的哪些方面会发生质的飞跃？

Do you really think it's that pivotal Oh, to your outcomes in absolutely. So if I became a 10 out of 10 communicator, like I became the best communicator in the world, what outcomes in my life, what areas of my life do think will radically improve?

如果你达到10分沟通水平，几乎可以去往任何想去的地方。比如求职成功与否完全取决于面试时的沟通表现。很多人简历出色却无法有效传达，若连基本表达能力都欠缺，自然无法如愿。还有些人在关系中长期被压制...

Think you could almost get to wherever you wanted to go if you were a 10 out of 10 communicator. You can how you get hired for jobs, let's say, your career comes down almost exclusively to how you communicated right there in that interview. You know people have a wonderful resume, but they have no ability to communicate that. And without the ability to say anything and say it at least effectively, then they're not going to get what they want. Or you have people who have been in those relationships where they've continually been stepped on.

他们本质优秀，只要遇到对的人，或能及时表达真实需求，整个世界就会彻底改变。

And they're wonderful people on-site. And if they were only with the right person or if they could express how they wanted and what they needed at that time, their whole world would really change.

做播客让我常思考这点。这个行业略带不公平之处在于，有时你会遇到做出非凡成就的人——可能是波士顿实验室的科学家，或是某个冷门领域的顶尖专家...

I think a lot about this because of podcasting. And it's one of the slightly unfortunate, unfair elements of running a podcast is sometimes you come across people who have done the most extraordinary work ever. They could be a scientist in a lab in Boston in America or they could be, I don't know, some exceptional expert in some niche field.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但他们在播客或TED演讲等平台上鲜少露面的原因，并非因为能力不足，纯粹是因为缺乏传达观点的技巧。在这个内容为王、YouTube和播客主导媒体的时代，沟通能力带来的不公平优势简直难以置信。哪怕你的专业能力或经验只有他人一半水平——

But the reason why they often don't get the platform, the stage on podcasts or on TED Talks, whatever it might be, isn't because of that sort of merit. It's purely because of their ability to communicate the ideas. And I think the more and more we head into this sort of, like, content, YouTube, podcasting world where that's, like, the dominant form of media, it's so unbel it's such an unfair advantage Yeah. If you can communicate. Like, you can be 50% as good in terms of skills or experience.

但只要你擅长沟通，这种优势在你人生中产生的 disproportionate（不成比例的）影响，我认为是极其巨大的。

But if you can communicate effectively, the unfair advantage you will have in your life, I think, is just completely disproportionate.

完全同意。在这个领域你会有巨大先发优势。假设你是全班知识最渊博的人，但若缺乏掌控全场、吸引并保持他人注意力、有效表达需求的能力，根本没人会听你说话。这确实是不公平的优势，这个说法很精准。

I couldn't agree more. You have a huge head start in this space. You can if you're somebody who you may know more than anybody else in that class, that if you don't have the ability to take up the room, if you don't have the ability to capture somebody's attention and hold it and communicate what you need, nobody will listen. And it is an unfair advantage. It's a great way to put it.

那么反过来说呢？如果我现在沟通能力极差，只有1分（满分10分），A）具体表现会是什么？B）这会对我的生活造成什么后果？

What's the downside then? So if I'm a terrible communicator, if I'm a one out of 10 communicator currently, A, what does that look like? But B, what do the outcomes look like in my life?

后果就是你会开始自我否定，用极其消极的方式与自己对话。那真是种绝望的感觉。你会在各种人际关系中反复遇到同样的问题，职场中也会陷入同样的困境，就像个死循环——永远无法说出该说的话。

The outcomes are you're going to start to be negative on yourself. You're going to start to talk to yourself in very negative ways. Really, it's a hopeless feeling. You're going to run into relationships where you're running into the same problem. You're going to go into jobs where you start to run into the same problem, where it's almost cyclical, where you're not being able to say what you need to say.

当你说'我绝不再容忍这种对待'时，一切就会不同。但如果你连如何表达个人边界、维护这些边界、或阐明人生目标都不会，你会发现自己的不快乐与日俱增，这种无力感真的令人绝望。

That makes a huge difference when you say, look, I'm not to allow myself to be treated this way anymore. When you don't even know how to voice your own boundaries or enforce those boundaries or things of how you want and where you want to go in your life, what you're going to find is you're just going to be unhappier more often and more unsatisfied. And that's a really hopeless feeling.

你现在所有社交平台加起来有多少粉丝了？

How many followers have you gotten online now across all of your channels?

快接近1200万了。很疯狂是吧？没错，我也觉得。

I think we're close to 12,000,000. That's crazy. Yeah. You're telling me.

地球上还有其他律师拥有这么多粉丝吗？没有。你为这1200万人提供的核心价值究竟是什么？

Is there an attorney that has that many followers on Earth? No. What is it you're doing for those 12,000,000 people at the very core of it?

是的，他们来找我看视频，不是为了修正或学习上次对话的内容，而是想知道如何应对下一次对话。我的做法是给他们这些片段，就像我在开场陈述或结案陈词中那样。我会提炼三个要点，试图将大量信息浓缩成非常简洁的内容。

Yeah, they come to me and they watch my videos not to fix or learn from what happened in the last conversation. They're coming to me because they want to know how to handle the next conversation. And what I do is I give them these snippets the same way I would in an opening argument or a closing argument. I go with three main points. I try to condense a whole lot of information into something that is very little.

所以你把40页的内容变成两句话，再浓缩成一句话，最后提炼为七个词。我要传达的是：嘿，我能做到。我能做到。

So you take what would be 40 pages, and you turn it into two sentences. And you turn that into one sentence. You turn to seven words. And what I do is I give them the sense of, hey, I can do that. I can do that.

我只需要替换这个词，或者就能看到调换一个小词、颠倒句子表达方式带来的影响。每次这样做都会产生截然不同的结果。

All I have to do is switch this word out, or I can see the impact of just flipping one little word or reversing the way I'm giving that sentence. And it creates a very different outcome every time.

那我们具体聊聊这个。你说你帮助他们聚焦在下一次对话上。具体是指什么？

So let's get into that then. You said you help them focus on the next conversation. Yeah. What do mean by that?

我们常常考虑第一印象与后续对话的区别。比如你我初次见面，或是约会、工作面试时，一切都很好。每个人都展现最佳状态。

So often, we think of first impressions versus the next conversation. So you and I meet the first time, or you meet your date or somebody first job interview. And everything's great. Everybody has their best face on. Everything's wonderful.

但通常在第二次对话时会出现变化。这时你才能判断第一印象是否持久，对方是否真如你所想。以日常争吵为例，比如与配偶或朋友产生摩擦，这种摩擦会升级。

But it's typically that next conversation where something's different. You get to learn if the first impression is the lasting impression, if somebody was really who you thought that they were. You put it in terms of an everyday argument, let's say with a spouse or a friend. You have friction. That friction ignites.

接着双方开始互相吼叫，恶语相向。音量越来越大，直到有人越界说了违心的话。然后争吵平息。

And then you start to both yell at each other. And then you throw insults at each other. And everything gets louder and louder and louder. Eventually, somebody crosses the line and says something they don't mean. And it dies.

有人会说：算了，我走了。然后离开。这时就需要下一次对话。

Go, forget this. I'm out of here. Gone. They leave. Then there's a next conversation.

这次对话与初次截然不同。语气更轻缓，人们会说：我本意是...我不该那样说...然后开始解释、道歉。

And that one sounds a lot different than the first one. It sounds a lot quieter, a lot slower. People say, what I meant to say was or yeah, I shouldn't have said that. My intent was then they start to clarify. Then they start to apologize.

接着他们会重新表述：我明白你为什么那样理解，不不不，我的意思是...人们在后续对话中关注的焦点总是与初次不同。关键在于如何让后续对话达到初次对话的效果？

Then they reframe. Oh, I can see how you take it that way. No, no, no. What I meant was what they care about in the next conversation is always much different than what they focused on in the first conversation. So the key is, how do you take that next conversation and get it there to be the first one?

那么我们应该从哪里开始理解这一点呢？比如，我想成为一个更出色的交谈者，一个更高效的沟通者。我想减少争吵，更多地交流。

And where do where do we have to start to understand this? Like, I want to be a much better conversationalist, and I want to be a much more effective communicator. I want to argue less. I want to talk more.

我想成为

I want to be

被更多倾听的人。这可能反映了现在大多数听众的心声。所以，如果我作为你的学生来接受你的训练，你会首先从哪个方面开始指导我？第一点，

heard more. This is probably reflective of most people listening right now. So if if if I was a student of yours coming in to be trained by you, where is the first place you would start with me? Number one,

你要有控制地表达。好的。这是什么意思？当你与人争论时，自动发生的是你的战斗或逃跑反应开始接管，即使是在小争论中，尤其是在那些微小的分歧中。如果我不同意你的观点，你的战斗或逃跑反应就会被触发，因为你的身体在说，嘿，我被轻视了。

you say it with control. Okay. What do you mean by that? So when you're in an argument with somebody, what happens automatically is your fight or flight starts to take over, even in a little argument, even in the very especially even in the small ones. If I disagree with your opinion, your fight or flight kicks in because your body is saying, hey, I'm being undermined.

你的大脑告诉你，嘿，我不喜欢那样。他说的和我说的不一样。你知道吗？我们会想到其他事情。这会让你放下那个念头。

Your mind is telling you, hey, I didn't like that. What he's saying is different from what I'm saying. You know what? We're going to think of some other things. It's going to put that down.

立刻，我想做的就是说出一些具有攻击性的话。换句话说，我要伤害你。我想说些能刺痛你的话。我想说些伤人的话。或者我们选择逃避。

Immediately, what I want to do is say something that is going to fight. In other words, I'm going to hurt you. I want to say something that's going to cut you. I want to say something that is hurtful. Or we run from it.

你有没有遇到过有人在电话里说，我受够了，然后挂断？或者他们说，我走了。你知道吗？算了。然后他们砰地关上门。

You ever had somebody been on the phone and go, I'm over this, and they hang up? Or they go, I'm out of here. You know what? Forget this. And they go and slam the door.

那是他们的逃跑反应。他们离开了。是因为我感到在当前这个冲突中，这个不同的观点让我感到威胁，所以我需要逃离。当你决定有控制地表达时，你确保这种情况不会发生。而这一切都始于你的呼吸。

That's their flight. They're leaving. It's I feel threatened in this current moment by this conflict, by this differing view, so I need to get out of it. When you decide to say it with control, you make sure that that doesn't happen. And it all begins with your breath.

好的，这是关键。所以我教每一位客户的是，让你的呼吸成为你说的第一个词。我们现在就来练习一下。可以吗？好的，我们来做一个夸张的示范。

All right, that's the key. So what I teach every one of my clients is let your breath be the first word that you say. So we'll run through it right now. That's cool? All right, so let's do an exaggerated one.

这被称为生理性叹息，它利用的就是这一点。我们要做的是用两秒通过鼻子吸气，顶部再吸一秒，然后呼气，啊。对。好的。现在

And what this is called and it takes advantage of is a physiological sigh. So what we're going to do is two seconds in through the nose, one more at the top, And then go, ah. Yeah. Okay. Now

怎么做

how do

你做完那件事后感觉如何？

you feel after you do that?

非常放松。

Very relaxed.

好的。明白了。很棒。所以我们要做的是找到直达那个结果的捷径。这次我们做同样的事，但不要发出声音。

Yeah. All right. Cool. So what we're going to do is get a shortcut to that exact result. This time, we're going to do it same thing, but don't make the noise.

再来一次停止动作。再次用嘴呼吸。现在换成只用鼻子。准备好了吗？刚才我们做得有点刻意了。

One more to stop. Through the mouth again. Now, instead of the mouth, only through the nose. Ready? Now we did that almost a little that was very intentional.

所以我们再来一次，但要像修剪头发那样轻，轻到我都不会注意到。准备好了吗？就是这样。这就是你的默认反应。每当有人说了你不同意的话，在你开口说第一个字之前，这就是你的应对方式。

So let's do it again, but give it a haircut as if you don't even you're not even going get me to notice. Ready? That right there. Now that is your go to. Whenever somebody is telling you something that you disagree with, that is your go to before you even say your first word.

因为这能确保你的战斗或逃跑反应永远不会被触发。它能让你始终保持理性和逻辑思维。而不是直接想：等等，他们不能这样对我大喊大叫。不不，这想法太蠢了。你会说：你能相信吗？而不是让战斗或逃跑本能主导。

Because it is going to make sure that that fight or flight never kicks in. It keeps that analytical side, that logical side in it the whole time. Instead of going, oh, but wait, they can't yell at me like that. No, no, that's a dumb idea. Can you believe that you say, instead of that, that's your fight or flight.

你甚至没给自己呼吸的机会。当你呼吸并运用我所说的对话呼吸法时，它能让你思考：我想知道他们为什么这么说。这让你能稍微抽离当下，因为你在用呼吸调节。当你允许自己呼吸时，它会让你保持更冷静的状态。

You never even gave yourself a chance to breathe. When you breathe and use that, what I call a conversational breath, it allows you to go, I wonder where this is coming from. I wonder why they said it like that. Now it allows you to kind of stay detached from that current moment because you're injecting your breath into it. When you allow yourself to breathe, then it's going to keep you much calmer.

所以每当有客户可能被律师提出的问题激怒时，我都会训练他们在对方提问时运用呼吸。开始真正好奇他们为什么这么问。他们想证明什么？不要看问题的表面，要看背后的意图。

And so any time I have a client that maybe is getting a question from an attorney that would be triggering to them or upsetting to them, it's always the training of use your breath while they're asking the question. Start getting really curious as to why they're asking that. What's the point that they're trying to prove? Don't look at the surface of the question. Look at the intent behind it.

他们想把你引向哪里？每当我教会他们这点，效果都非常显著。

Where are they trying to take you? Whenever I can teach them that, it's a very powerful result.

要做到这一点，我必须适应一个事实：在我的回应和他们的问题之间会有停顿，这对很多人来说相当不舒服。

And to do that, I have to be comfortable with the fact that there will be a pause between my response and their question, which is quite uncomfortable for a lot of people.

你可能会这么想。但他们做得越多，效果就越好。实际上，我喜欢这样，因为它表明我真的在倾听。比如说，你可以问我，杰斐逊，你今天过得怎么样？

You'd think. But the more they do it, the better it becomes. In fact, I like it because it tells you that I actually listened. So let's say, for example, ask me about my just say, how was your day, Jefferson?

杰斐逊，你今天过得怎么样？

How was your day, Jefferson?

挺好的，挺好的。我的一天很棒。就是普通的一天。再问我一次。

It was good. It was good. My day was great. It was a day. Ask me again.

杰斐逊，你今天过得怎么样？

How was your day, Jefferson?

很好，是个好日子。我很喜欢。你看，一种回答是，我甚至没想过你问了我什么？另一种则是，不，我真的思考了这个问题。

It was good. It was a good day. I liked it. You see how one says, I didn't even think about what you asked me? The other says, no, I actually thought about the question.

我考虑了它，然后选择了我的答案。所以，即使是在非常忙碌的工作环境中，尤其是领导者们面临现场问题时，他们也能这样做。糟糕的领导者会变得非常慌乱，情绪也随之高涨。

I considered it. And then I chose my answer. And so you can do that even when, especially for leaders, they go into a very busy work environment where there are problems right on the floor. They have to address this right at that current moment. The bad leaders will get very hectic and rise to that same level of energy.

伟大的领导者会保持冷静的能量。他们深吸一口气，然后说，好吧，接下来怎么办？比如，我曾经问过我爷爷一次，嘿，你知道你的螺丝刀在哪吗？他说，知道。

The great leaders will capture the calm energy. They inject that breath and go, Okay, what's next? Have you ever my grandfather, for example, I can ask him one time. I was like, hey, you know where your screwdriver is? And he goes, yeah.

我是说，就像，你知道的

I mean, like, you know

我的意思吗？

what I mean?

但我的意思是，生活中总有这样一类人——你被他们平静的能量所吸引，他们是人际关系和对话中的锚点，仅仅靠近他们就能让你平静下来。只要在他们身边，你就会觉得‘太好了，史蒂文在这儿，我感觉好多了’。

But I mean, it just but there's something about it where these kind of people in your life that you're looking and drawn to the calm energy, the anchors in your relationship, in your conversations, the people that just to be near them calms you down. Just to be around them, you go, Okay, great. Steven's here. I feel better. Good.

好的，他在这里。没问题，一切都会顺利的。因为他们寻找的不只是对话中的主导者，更是能掌控整个空间氛围的人。你必须捕捉到那种平静的能量。

Okay, he's here. All right. Things are going go all right. Because they're looking for the person who is going to be the lead, not just in the conversation, but the frequency of the room. It's a calm energy that you have to capture.

当我问你今天过得如何时，你停顿的那一下让我有两个有趣的发现：首先，无论你接下来要说什么，我都更信任了。因为你有时间思考，而不是机械地抛出自动回复。我当时就想‘天啊’

When you took that pause when I asked you how your day had been, two interesting observations I had. The first is, whatever you were about to say next, I trusted more. Yeah. Because you had some time to think, and you weren't just spewing out your, like, automatic response. So I thought, oh, gosh.

他会说什么呢？这种思考的过程让我觉得‘他是真的在考虑，真的在乎给我诚实的答案’。其次，我变得无比好奇。

What's he gonna say here? And I there was this element of, like, he's really thinking. He's, like, he really cares about giving me the honest the honest answer. And the second one is I was just so much more intrigued. Right.

因为我能看到你在思考。所以我当时想‘这个回答肯定会很有趣’。而这一切都发生在你深呼吸的那一秒里。这种场景在面试中经常出现。

Because I could see you thinking. So I thought, this is going to be an interesting response. Yeah. And that was all in that one second where you took a breath. You can see that a lot in interviews.

对。当你觉得‘这人很聪明’的时刻，往往是在问常规面试问题时，如果他们回答前先停顿呼吸，你就会想‘哇，他们真的在听我说话’。而那些连珠炮式回答的人...比如用另一个技巧举例：如果问‘你认为能为公司带来价值吗？’，若我立刻回答‘哦当然，我觉得我能’

Right. The person who you go, oh, this person is smart, is when you ask them a regular interview question, and if they give a breath before they answer, you go, oh, they actually are listening to me. The ones that have this rapid fire of let's say, for example and this uses another technique that we'll talk about is if you were to say, would you bring some value? Do you think you'd bring value to this company? And if I automatically said, oh, yeah, I mean, I think I would.

比起‘我认为自己能给公司带来很多价值’，如果说‘我确信自己能给公司创造巨大价值’——你会突然觉得‘就是这个人了。他们真的听进去了，思考过了，我现在特别好奇他们接下来要说什么’。

I think I'd bring a lot of value to this company versus I'm confident I'd bring a lot of value to this company. Like, you hear all of a sudden, you go, that's my person. They actually heard me, considered it, and I'm really curious about what they're going to say next.

这种沉思中是否蕴含着某种...意味着我相信你验证过了？对。就像第二个例子中，你停顿后说‘是的，我为公司带来了很多价值’

There was something is there something in the contemplation which means that I believe you checked? Yeah. Like, it's it's a simple way to describe it. In that second example where you paused and said, yeah. I've brought a lot of value to this company.

我当时就想‘他确实验证过了’

I I was like, he actually checked.

正是如此。

Exactly.

他，那个，核实过了。他相信了，所以我也相信。

He, like, checked. He believes it, so I believe it.

没错。这就是为什么每次我指导客户准备他们的证词——他们称之为depo时

Right. And that's why every time I teach a client and I'm preparing them for their deposition, what they call a depo

你说客户，具体是指

When you say client, who

谁？你是说...对，就是那些聘请我的律师事务所的人。现在这已经演变成我用手机在自己的会员群里教学了。我会说，好吧，让你的呼吸成为第一个词。

do you mean? You mean Yeah. So people that hire me in my law firm. And now that's translated to me doing it on my phone and teaching people in my own membership. I would say, Okay, let your breath be the first word.

一旦你这样做了，对方就会想，哇，他们真的在认真听我的问题。律师们，我们想抓住你的破绽。我们想让你快速回答。更妙的是当你开始打断我的问题，直接回答你以为我要问的下一个问题。

And once you do that, you're going to be the other person's going go, oh, man, they really listened to my questions. The attorneys, we want to get you. We want to get you in a rapid fire. We want you to answer very quickly. Even better is when you start to step over my question and answer the question that you think I'm already going to ask.

当你这样做时，意味着你没有在听。你没有在听。但当我能让客户停下来，深呼吸然后说，嗯，你知道吗？这不公平。我有个客户伊丽莎白，有一次我在指导她时，我扮演对方律师。

When you do that, that means you're not listening. You're not listening. But when I can get a client to stop, breathe, and go, yeah, you know what? That's not fair. I had a client, Elizabeth, who one time, when I was prepping her, I would act as the other attorney.

我经常这样做来帮助他们模拟即将发生的情况。我会说，好了，卡森女士，快点。我需要你回答这个问题。这是事实。

So I do that often to help get them and simulate what's going to happen. I would say, all right, Ms. Carson, come on. I need you to answer this question. That's true.

可以说，你没看到那辆车，对吧？我开始施压。这会让他们非常紧张。他们会想，天啊，然后神经紧绷。这都是因为他们没有呼吸。

It's fair to say, you didn't see that other car, did you? And I kind of start to push them. That gets him really nervous. They're, oh my gosh, and their nerves get up. It's because they're not breathing.

当人们开始发抖时，那是因为没有呼吸。所以她当时不知如何回答。我没有提前教她。等我教会她呼吸技巧后，同样的问题。有人问——我认识这个律师。

When people start to shake, it's not breathing. And so she didn't know what to say. I'm not prepping her. Come time after I taught her about her breath, same question. Somebody said and I knew this attorney.

我知道他会问这个问题。他说，可以说你没看到那辆车吧。她深吸一口气说，不，这么说并不公平。我就说到这里。

I knew he was going to ask that question. He said, it's fair to say you didn't see that at the car. And she took a breath. She goes, no, that's not fair to say. I mean, I just left it at that.

而他确实对此无能为力。但更重要的是，这给了她信心去说：不，我听到了。我明白你的意图。但我不会那样做。因此，这实际上帮助你运用工具来掌控局面，确保你始终以可控的方式表达。

And he just couldn't really do anything with it. But the bigger thing was it gave her the confidence of saying, no, I listened. I see where you're going with this. I'm not going to go there. And so it helps you navigate and empower you, really, with the tools of making sure you're always saying it with control.

另一种控制表达的方式是放慢语速。当人们不假思索地说话极快时，会让我们感到有些焦虑。好吧，我在努力理解你。这么说吧，我喜欢嘻哈，喜欢说唱音乐。

Another part of saying it with control is slowing your words down. When people talk really fast, without thinking about it, it gets us kind of anxious when somebody is talking really, really fast. Okay, I'm trying to understand you. It's harder, let's say, I like hip hop. I like rap music.

如果你听一个人以极快的速度说唱，却一个字都听不懂，你可能会觉得：我在这首歌里迷失了。我喜欢节奏，这很棒。但我听不懂你在唱什么。那些放慢语速的人在沟通中会显得更有效。

If you listen to somebody who's rapping really, really fast and you can't understand a word they're saying, you're kind of like, I'm lost in this song. I like the beat. That's great. But I can't understand what you're saying. People that slow their words down shows a lot more effectiveness when you communicate.

让我们来演示一下。我要你带着近乎恼怒的情绪快速说：我已经告诉过你我不会那么做。说得快一点。

So let's illustrate this. I want you to say quickly with some almost some exasperation, I already told you I'm not going to do that. Say that real quick.

我已经告诉过你我不会那么做。大声点说。我已经告诉过你我不会那么做。

I already told you I'm not going to do that. Say it louder. I already told you I'm not going to do that.

完美。现在我要你放慢语速。把每个词都拖得很长。不必带着轻蔑的语气，只要放慢就行。

Perfect. What I want you to do is slow it down. Slow it way down each word. You don't have to have the disdain with it. Just slow it down.

再说一次。

Say it again.

我已经告诉过你我不会那么做。

I already told you I'm not going to do that.

说得再慢一点。

Say it even slower.

我已经告诉过你，我不会那么做。

I already told you I am not going to do that.

哇，老兄。这太棒了。是啊。你看没有情绪的时候，是不是听起来更失控？

Oh, man. That's awesome. Yeah. So you see how without the emotion Yeah. You sounded even more out control?

对。如果有人暴躁地说'我早说过不会那样做'，这人可能只有5%的自控力。但如果我放慢语速说同样的话'我早说过不会那样做'，听起来就有100%的控制力。这种人会让你觉得'哇，好吧'。

Yeah. Somebody who goes, I already told you I'm not going to do that, says, I have maybe 5% control. But if I slow it down, same thing, and I say, I already told you I'm not going to do that. Now I sound like I have 100% control. This is the person you go, woah, Okay.

他们不会动摇立场。不是那种能被轻易激怒、情绪受人操控的人。

They're not moving off their spot. They're not somebody who's I can't press their buttons and control their emotions that way.

什么样的人容易在这方面有困扰？

What type of person struggles with this?

那些对自身情绪不敏感、不了解触发点的人，简单说就是缺乏某些方面的觉察力。

Somebody who would be not aware of their emotions, not aware of their triggers, somebody who just let's put it as a lack of awareness of certain things.

自尊心和不安感在这里起作用吗？

Does one's self esteem and one's insecurities play a role in this?

当然。它们在任何事上都起作用。但我的观点是：我们可以克服。不是你的自尊在说话，是措辞本身在起作用。

Yeah. Mean, they play a role with anything. My counter to that is we can overcome It's not your self esteem that's talking. It's the words. The words do it for you.

有些人难以表达需求。关键在于他们需要说的具体词汇。当有人受困于自尊问题时，我发现只要教他们用特定词语开头，结果就会完全不同。他们只是不知如何起头。我很好奇，比如有自尊问题的人很少会说'我需要'。

We have people who have a hard time saying what they want. It's the words that they need to say. So when somebody is having a hard time with self esteem, what I find is all I need to do is get them to start beginning their sentences with certain words, and it's always a different outcome. They just don't know how to begin it. So I was very curious on how, like somebody who rarely does people with self esteem issues say I need, for example.

他们通常不愿这么说，觉得太直接。自尊心弱的人往往会用'可能吧'、'我在想'、'如果我错了请告诉我'这类开头。他们只是用错了起始词，要找到能推动对话进展的词汇。比如总说'好像'的人。

They typically don't like to say that because it feels too forward. Somebody who has self esteem issues will typically begin with, so maybe like, and I was thinking this, and you can totally tell me if I'm wrong, but that's the kind of thing that you typically hear. They're just using the wrong words to begin their sentences. You have to find words that push the progress of the sentence. For example, if someone says like all the time.

当你说'你那样说让我很受伤'时，这话没有推进力。如果把'好像'换成'因为'——'这让我难过，因为你那样说伤害了我'——对话就向前推进了。就这么微小的措辞调整，一两个词就能带来巨大改变。

I mean, when you said that, it just really upset me. That doesn't push the sentence forward. If you trade out the word like for the word because, well, I mean, that just hurt because when you said that, that hurt me. I'm pushing the sentence forward rather than letting it drag. And so it's just these little bitty tweaks that one or two words make a big, big difference.

这是第一点。你提到了控制。

So that was the first point. You said control.

对，控制。用控制的方式说出来。

Yeah. Control. Say it with control.

好的。还有第二点吗？第二点，用自信的方式说出来。自信。好的。

Okay. Is there a second point? Number two, say it with confidence. Confidence. Okay.

我怎样才能自信地说出某件事？

How do I say something with confidence?

你必须先理解它的本质。我不是在说那些玄乎的东西。很多人来找我，问我怎么才能有自信说出这个？我正在鼓起勇气或信心去说那个。这种看法是错误的。

You have to first understand what it is. And I don't mean that in a woo woo setting. A lot of people come to me and go, how do I have the confidence to say this? I'm getting up the courage or confidence to say that. It's the wrong way to look at it.

自信不是事先拥有的。自信是结果。你通过说一些坚定的话来达到这个结果。我教的是，自信源于坚定的行动。所以当你学会如何使用你坚定的声音时，结果就是感到自信。

Confidence is not what you have before. Confidence is the outcome. And you get to that by saying things that are assertive. What I teach is confidence is as assertive does. So when you learn how to use your assertive voice, the result is feeling confident.

就像如果我现在告诉你，斯蒂芬，需要你感到悲伤。你很难感到悲伤。如果我说，我需要你现在感到害怕，你会想，我是说，有什么好害怕的？就像，你无法凭空产生那种感觉。现在，如果我出于某种原因，突然用肘部撞你的胸口，我是说，你会感到生气，对吧？

Like if I were to tell you right now, Stephen, need you to feel sad. You have a hard time feeling sad. If I say, I need you to be afraid right now, you're like, I mean, what is there to be afraid of? Like, you just can't conjure that feeling. Now, if I, for whatever reason, just gave you an elbow to the chest, I mean, you'd be like upset, right?

你不必去想象生气是什么感觉。你会直接感受到。自信也是一样的。你不能凭空产生自信的感觉。你只有通过做坚定的事情才能获得它。

You don't have to wonder what it's like to feel mad. You're going to feel it. It's the same with confidence. You can't just conjure up the feeling of confidence. You only get it by doing assertive things.

而且我发现，最自信的人是那些已经做过这件事的人。所以他们已经说过坚定的话。他们已经使用过他们的声音。因为他们越坚定，他们就会感到越自信。这就是它的运作方式。

And the people that are most confident, I found, are the people that have done the thing already. So they have already said the assertive thing. They've already used their voice. Because the more assertive they are, the more confident they're going to feel. That's the way it works.

所以你去做，通过使用你坚定的声音来找到自信。

So you do it, you find confidence by using your assertive voice.

那么什么是我的坚定表达？这种坚定表达与不尊重他人有何不同？我这里有一张图表，应该是从你的书里摘录的。它展示了介于两者之间的中间地带——

And what is my assertive voice? And how is sort of an assertive voice different to, like, disrespecting someone? I've got this graph. I think it's from taken from your book Okay. Which shows the sort of middle ground of

是的。

Yeah.

我会把图表放到屏幕上，方便看不见的人查看。图表展示了尊重他人与尊重自我的平衡点，而中间区域就是你的坚定表达。究竟什么是我的坚定表达？

I'll put it on the screen for anyone that can't see, but respecting others versus respecting yourself. And in the middle of that, you have your assertive voice. What is my assertive voice?

这是一种平衡。介于近乎被动和咄咄逼人之间的平衡。坚定表达意味着：即使可能引发不快，我也愿意直接告诉你真相；或者说我需要表达的内容，但不会显得粗鲁。当你直接与人沟通时，这其实也是对他人非常友善的方式。

It's a balance. It's a balance between sounding almost passive and sounding aggressive. Assertive says, I'm willing to be direct with you even in the face of it not going well, but I'm at least going to give you my truth. Or I'm going to say what I need to say without sounding rude. Whenever you are direct with someone, it's also very kind to someone.

比如我提前铺垫说'史蒂夫，我告诉你这件事是因为我知道你能承受'，这与我直接说'听着，这可能让你不快，我并非有意冒犯，但请你知悉'完全不同。后者要困难得多。坚定表达就是：我会非常直接。

If I were to tell you and prep the sentence with, Steve, I'm going to tell you this because I know you can handle it. That's different than me going, hey, look, this is probably going to upset you. I don't mean to upset you, but you just let me know. That is a whole lot harder. The assertive voice is, I'm going to be very direct.

同时我会带着这样的态度表达：这不是在强加我的意志，只是表明我的立场。你不必总是表现得彬彬有礼——我并不是这个意思。当有人对你说出过分言论时，

At the same time, I'm going to say it with a sense of this doesn't have to do with me trying to push my way. I'm just letting you know where I stand. You don't have to always play nice. That's not what I'm saying. There are times when somebody says something that's terrible to you.

你不必反击，但也不能任人摆布。当你掌握了坚定表达，就能更轻松自如地说出真实想法。关于'说出来'和使用坚定表达的第一课就是：每个词都至关重要。其中首当其冲的就是'只是'这个词。

You don't have to push back. You just can't be pushed over. And so when you learn your assertive voice, that's where you find ways to speak your truth more easily and more readily. So one of the first words or lessons of say it and using your assertive voice is that every word matters. The number one culprit of that is the word just.

我们过度使用'只是'这个词。这可能是我个人的弱点之一。日常交流中无所谓，没人会在意。但当需要设定界限、在工作场合表态或需要更警觉时，'只是'这个词会让你听起来犹豫不决。

We use the word just a lot. It's probably one of my weaknesses that I have is using the word just. In common conversation, no problem. Nobody cares. But when it comes to having to push a boundary, say something at work, be a little bit more on your toes, just has a way of making you sound hesitant.

最常见的例子就是有人发邮件或信息说：'嗨，只是想跟进一下'，'能占用你五秒钟吗？只是想和你确认下'。这听起来就像在说'我不想打扰你'。如果去掉'只是'这个词，你的表达就会更有力量。

The most common way we hear that is if somebody goes, maybe an email or a text, hey, just wanted to check-in with you. Hey, do you have five seconds? Just wanted to touch base with you. It sounds like you're hesitant, as if like, I don't really want to bother you. If you remove the word just, now you're leaning into it.

所以不要说'我只是想跟进'，而要说'我想和你跟进'。这样更有推进力，远比使用'只是'有效得多。每个微小的词汇都很重要。你一定收到过那种长篇大论的信息，让人不知如何回应。

So instead of, I just want to check-in, I wanted to check-in with you. That's a lot more forward, a lot more forward progress rather than just using the word just. But every little word matters. You've had those texts where somebody gives you a whole paragraph. I don't know how to respond to this.

我所教授的是，你的回答越长，引发的问题就越多，对话就会拖得越长，争论也会持续更久。所以你必须学会用更少的话表达更多的意思。

What I teach is that the longer your answer, the more questions you're going to get, the longer that conversation is going to go, the longer the argument's going to go. So you have to find ways to say more with less.

你必须学会用更少的话表达更多的意思。那么我说话的多少会产生影响吗？

You have to find ways to say more with less. So does the amount that I speak have consequence?

是的。这就像一种观念：用越多词汇描述真相，听起来就越像谎言。比如你向我解释某件事说得越多，我就越会认为你其实并不清楚自己在说什么。我们有种现象——我猜他们称之为‘语言呕吐’——就是一个人滔滔不绝，让人完全迷失在他的句子里。

Yes. Is this it's this idea of the more words it takes to tell the truth, the more it sounds like a lie. Like, more you have to say to explain something to me, the more I start to assume you don't know what you're talking about. And we have this way of what I guess they call it word vomit, where you talk a whole lot. People get lost in your sentences.

另外，你选择何时开口也至关重要。比如你参加某些会议时，总有那么一个人非要插上两句。他们总要抛出自己的想法，或是扮演魔鬼代言人，对每个议题都要发表意见。大多数时候，这些人其实最不了解实际情况，至少与讨论内容脱节——因为他们想让你知道他们有多聪明或认识多少人。这些人还总爱在每句话里提名人显摆。

And also, when you choose to speak, it makes a very big difference. Like, have you ever been in one of those meetings and there's always this one person that has to throw in their 2¢. They always have to throw out their idea or be the devil's advocate or have something to say at every single issue that gets brought up. Most of the time, those are the people that are honestly the least connected to what's actually happening or at least part of the conversation because they want you to know how smart they are or how many people they know. These are the same people that name drop like every other sentence.

那种人会说‘哦，我前几天和史蒂夫聊天’，‘你认识史蒂夫对吧？’，‘对啊，他超棒的’。他们不断提名人就是为了显摆自己的人脉。不安全感往往叫嚣得最响亮。

The person that is like, oh, I was talking to Steven the other day. Oh, you know Steven, right? Oh, yeah, great guy. And they start to name drop just so you know how many people that they know. Insecurities are very loud.

而自信却非常安静。所以你会看到有些人觉得必须说尽一切，这样听起来更可信，让你知道他们懂得多少、有多聪明。自信的人却毫无表达的冲动，因为他们无需证明什么。比如你反对我确信的事实，我根本不会受影响。假设我们都穿着黑衬衫——

Confidence, on the other hand, is very quiet. And so you hear people have the need to say everything so that I sound more believable, so you'll know how much I know and how smart I am. Confident people have the urge to say nothing because they have nothing to prove. Like, you disagree with me on something that I know to be true, I wouldn't be nearly as affected. Let's say, like we both have on a black shirt.

要是你说‘杰斐逊，你这件蠢紫衬衫真难看’，我只会‘哦，好吧’。我根本不需要说服你，因为我清楚自己衬衫的颜色。当你内心真正认同一件事时，就不会产生向所有人证明他们错了的不安全感。自信总是静默的。

If you were like, Jefferson, this is a dumb purple shirt you have on. I'm like, oh, Okay. Like, I don't need to convince you what I already know the color of my shirt is. It's like, if you know that about yourself, what you have internally inside, you don't have the need, the insecurity to prove it to everybody else that they're wrong. The confidence is very quiet.

通常最受瞩目的人往往说话最少。他们倾听的时候要多得多。

The people that are typically the most looked to are the people that say the least. They listen a whole lot more.

人们会利用这点吗？比如我说你穿了件紫衬衫就激怒了你...嗯...那我现在是不是就掌握了主动权？因为如果你这么容易被明显的挑衅激怒，我就能像摆弄小提琴一样操控你。现在我肯定对你拥有支配权了吧？

Do people capitalize on that? So if if you're triggered by me saying that you have a purple shirt on Mhmm. Have I got the power now? Because I can, like, play you like a fiddle if that's you're so easily triggered by something that's so obviously, like, provocation. Surely, I, like, I have the power over you now.

对吧？

Right?

不。我是说，那些缺乏情商、没有情感觉察力的人，是的，你可以轻易触动他们的情绪按钮，像摆弄小提琴一样操控他们。因为这就像我把遥控器交给你——‘给，这是我情绪的遥控器，请便’。

No. I mean I mean, the the people that are not emotionally intelligent, the people that don't have the emotional awareness, yeah, you can you can press their buttons and play them like a fiddle. And because what they've done is they've that would be like me giving you the remote. Say, here, here's the remote to my emotions. Go ahead.

操控他。按下那个按钮。哦，对。哦，你惹我生气了？你怎么敢？

Play him. Press that button. Oh, yeah. Oh, you made me angry? How dare you?

与其分发遥控器，不如养成递手册的习惯。所以如果你想冲我吼叫、按我的情绪按钮，让我说‘你不能那样对我吼’，不如我给你一本手册并说：‘嘿，我听到你吼我了。如果不介意，请翻到第72页，看第三段——我不对这种音量做出反应’。

Instead of handing out remote controls, you get in the habit of giving out manuals. And so if you want to yell at me and press my button, and me to say, you can't yell at me like that, versus me handing you a manual and go, hey, I heard you yell at me. If you don't mind, go to page 72. You can look on paragraph three. I don't respond to that volume.

你在传递完全不同的思维转变：这是我容忍的底线，这是我不容忍的。

You're giving a whole different mind shift of this is what I tolerate, and this is what I don't tolerate.

来找你的人里有很多讨好型人格吗？

Do you have a lot of people pleasers coming to you?

是的。讨好他人很艰难。关键在于，你可以取悦别人，但要确保自己也在被取悦之列。更困难的是人们总说：‘我对所有事情都习惯性答应’。

Yeah. People pleasing is very hard. I mean, the thing is, can please people. Just make sure that you're one of them. And that's the harder part is people say, I'm always saying yes to things.

‘我不知道如何拒绝，不知该如何应对’。这要棘手得多。运用你的坚定表达能在很多方面帮助解决这个问题。重点是要确保在取悦他人时，找到设立边界的方法来保护自己。

I don't know how to say no to things. I don't know where to go with this. That's a whole lot harder. Using your assertive voices helps with that in a lot of ways. And it is about trying to make sure that when you people please with people, you have to find a way to set a boundary that is going to protect yourself.

而这说起来容易做起来难。

And that's easier said than done.

很有意思。我18岁创办了第一家正经公司。当你18岁却要应付年龄是你两倍的人，当你因肤色不同而显得特别，当你毫无经验时...昨天我和理发师聊天时还在反思这事，因为他是个创业的年轻黑人。你会意识到某种程度上，每场对话都是考验。

It's interesting. Being I started my first business when I was my first proper business when I was about 18 years old. And when you're 18 years old and you're dealing with people that are like double your age and you're different because your skin colors a little bit different, you have no experience, you I reflect I was talking to the guy that was cutting my hair yesterday because he's a young black man starting in business. And you were aware that every conversation you're having to some degree is a test. Yeah.

这就像在测试你有多重视自己，多相信自己，多相信自己正在构建和表达的东西。把人生看作每场对话都是对信念的考验，这种视角很有趣。我和理发师聊到这些年的改变，聊到商界如何让我变得比18岁时更直接果断。因为如果我没有那种坚定的表达，如果我不能平静地注视那些早我四十年发家的古怪亿万富翁的眼睛，用沉稳语速说出我认为的真相，我根本无法在他们所在的圈层生存。想想看，我们生命中如此多的部分都在培养这种能力——无需借口或附加条件就能坚定表达信念的能力。

It's like a test of how much you value yourself, how much you believe in yourself, and how much you believe in what you're building and what you're saying. Like, that's an interesting way to think of life that, like, every conversation is actually a test, a test of your conviction. And I was just I was talking to my barber about how I've changed over time and how business has made me become more direct and more assertive than I was when I was 18 years old. Because, like, I wouldn't have survived in some of the rooms that I'm in with, like, very eccentric billionaires who have done this forty years before me if if I didn't have that assertive voice, if I wasn't able to look them in the eye and say with calmness and a slower pace what I believe to be true. It's so interesting, like, just thinking about how so much of our life is about developing this ability to assert what we believe without the just or the caveats or Exactly.

是的。他们陷入困境的另一个原因是，我看到很多人过度道歉。我发现这在讨好型人格中尤为常见，他们每句话都要说'对不起'。比如：'嘿，真抱歉现在才回复你'。

Yeah. Where they also go into trouble is when people what I see a lot are people that over apologize. I find that that is big with people pleasers, where they say, I'm sorry in every single sentence. Hey, so sorry. I'm just now getting back to you.

'对不起，我刚看到这个'、'哦，我去不了，太抱歉了'——他们开始为根本不是错误的事情道歉。

Sorry. I'm just now seeing this. Oh, I can't come. So sorry. They start to apologize for things that are not a mistake.

他们为无关紧要的事道歉。当你开始为每件小事过度道歉时，不知不觉中，这会像滴水穿石般慢慢侵蚀你的自尊感和自我价值感。你的价值并不取决于你能通过不停说'嘿，真抱歉'、'不想打扰你'、'就一个小问题'来让自己显得多不碍事。

They apologize for things that are not errors. And when you start to over apologize with every little thing, without you knowing it, it's slowly, drip by drip, corroding your sense of self esteem, your sense of self worth. Your self worth is not tied to how little of an inconvenience you can make yourself by always saying, hey, so sorry. I don't mean to bother you. Just have a quick question.

我教大家用感恩的话替代过度道歉。比如你迟到一分钟时，不要说'太抱歉我迟到了'，而要说'谢谢你等我'。如果是写邮件，可以说'谢谢你给我时间考虑这个'。

Instead of the over apologies, what I teach is use words of gratitude. So instead of the, so sorry, I'm late, even though you're like one minute late. Thank you for waiting on me. Or thank you giving let's say it's an email. Thank you for giving me the time to think on this.

'谢谢你给我时间回复'、'谢谢你的耐心'——知道对方会怎么想吗？'我确实很有耐心呢'。

Thank you for giving me the time to reply. Thank you for giving me the patience. And you know what the other person is going to think? I am patient. Oh, yes, I am.

这样对方会很受用。你用感恩的话强化了这一点，这比讨好型人格对每件事都过度道歉要有效得多。否则他们要么贬低自己的话，要么说'不想打扰你，但是...'然后才说正事。

You're so welcome. You're using words of gratitude to press that. And that's a whole lot easier than the problem of people pleasers, and that's just over apologizing to just about everything. Or they undercut their words. Or they say, I hate to bother you, but And then they have to say what they need to say.

在这方面，世界上最成功的人——那些领袖、首相、总统、CEO们，在我们讨论的这个问题上有什么共同点？你懂我意思吗？他们是强势型还是讨好型？他们...

In this regard, what do the most successful people in the world, the leaders, the prime ministers, the presidents, the CEOs have in common as it relates to the stuff we're talking about right now? So you know what I'm saying? So like, are assertive? Are they people pleasers? Like, what do they

的共同点是什么？我发现人就是人，所以多数情况下还是取决于个性。但总体而言，最有效的领导者都善于把大量想法和话语浓缩表达。真正的领导不会写冗长的邮件。

have in common here? What I find that people are people. So it's going to most often, it's just going to come down to their personality. But overall, your most effective leaders find ways of taking a lot of ideas and words and saying them very concisely. The bigger leaders, they don't write long emails.

没错，他们确实...

Yeah, that's They so

也不会发长篇信息。

don't write long texts.

有钱人甚至不会在该死的邮件里写问候语和祝好。他们发邮件就像发短信一样直接。

Rich people don't even say hello and kind regards on fucking emails. They just they literally they send emails like text messages.

是啊。我发现生活中越有钱的人，越不在乎邮件签名——如果他们真有签名的话。可能就给你两句话，非常简短直击重点。要么是他们真的没时间。

Yeah. I have found in my own life that the richer somebody is, they could care less about an email signature if they even have one. And they might give you two sentences, maybe. I mean, it's very, very quick and to the point. Because it's either they really don't have the time.

其实不是没时间。他们想塑造非常直接的印象。他们不觉得这是冒犯或侮辱，而是认为这就是我的行事风格。

It's not really that. They want to have the appearance of being very direct. And they don't see that as an offense. They don't see that as an insult. They see that as that is the way that I'm going to operate.

他们不写长篇邮件，不会用'嘿，就想把这个放你桌上'这样的方式。也不会说'如果我错了请随时指正'或者'我有个问题想请教'。

They don't write long emails. They don't write them in a way that's going, hey, just want to put this on your plate. And if I'm wrong about this, you can totally let me know. And I have a question about this.

那第三点是什么？你已经说了两点。

What's number three then? So you've given me two.

对。带着掌控感说，带着自信说。第三点是带着联结说。这些都是你如何与人进行艰难对话的方法。

Yeah. Say it with control. Say it with confidence. And three is say it to connect. These are how do you have these difficult conversations with somebody?

如何在最困难的时刻表达所需？很多人知道要谈棘手话题时会焦虑，提前几周就开始担忧，尤其是前一天简直度日如年。

How do you find ways to say what you need to say in one of the most difficult times? That gives a lot of people anxiety if they know they have to have a difficult conversation. Even in weeks ahead, especially the day ahead, they're just dreading it.

那我该怎么'带着联结说'呢？

So how do I say something to connect?

关键是要对他人保持真正的好奇。不过不止如此，我甚至可以给你一个框架。我们更进一步来说，这个框架我称之为'对话框架'。

Yeah. What you want to do is get really curious about the other person. But not just so much that there is a framework that I can even give you. So we can go a step further. There is a frame, and I call them conversational frames.

所谓与人联结，这个词可能被用滥了。简单来说就是我说的你能懂，你给予回应。这就够了，不代表非要皆大欢喜。

When to connect with somebody, it is a fancy word. I think connection can be overused at times. It just means I say something that you can understand and you acknowledge me. That's all we're looking for. It doesn't mean that everything's happy.

这并不意味着那就是一种标志，卡拉。我可以与你建立联系，同时仍然对你感到不满。我父亲曾告诉我，如果我不同意某件事，他会说，你不必喜欢它，只需要理解它。我的意思是，这正是让我能够与他建立联系，同时给予我不同意见空间的绝佳例子。

It doesn't mean that's a hallmark, Carla. I can connect with you and still be upset at you. My dad used to tell me, if I disagree with something, he'd say, he would go, you don't have to like it. You just need to understand it. I mean, that right there was a great example of allowing me to connect with him and giving me the space to disagree.

如果你用'我不是要改变你的想法'或'我不需要改变你的想法'来开始你的句子，这几乎就像在你表达其余内容之前的一种解脱。现在你不必处于那种战斗或逃跑的对抗状态，担心是否需要随时为自己辩护。因此，连接是设置对话的一种方式，它能让你更接近你想要的结果。我们之前讨论过框架，这就是具体做法。

If you were to begin your sentence with, I'm not asking to change your mind, or I don't need to change your mind, it's almost like a relief before you say the rest of what you need to say. Now you're not in that combative fight or flight of, do I have to defend myself at any time? So connection is this way of setting up conversations that is going to get you more of what you want. We talked about the frame. Here's how to do it.

这是你在进行困难对话时可以使用的最高效工具。第一，你要先告诉他们你想谈什么。第二，你要告诉他们——这也是最重要的——你希望如何结束对话，你想从中获得什么。第三，你要让他们接受这个对话框架。以下是具体示例。

And this is the most effective tool that you can use for a difficult conversation. Number one, you're going to begin with telling them what you want to talk about. Number two, you tell them and this is the most important how you want to end the conversation, what you want to walk away from. And three, you get their buy in into that conversational frame. This is what it sounds like.

假设我需要和你谈一件严肃的事。首先，我会说明谈话主题：'斯蒂芬，我想和你聊聊上周四会议上你的一些言论。'第二，我会说明我希望达成的结果：'我希望谈话结束时能明确这种情况不会再发生。'

Let's say this is I need to come to you and talk about something serious. So first, I'm going to say what we need to talk about. Stephen, I'd like to talk with you about some comments you made at last Thursday's meeting. Two, I'm going to tell them how I want to walk away. It sounds like and I want to walk away from that conversation with the understanding that's not going to happen again.

第三，我会获取他们的认同。我会问：'这样行吗？'你会回答：'行。'现在你完全清楚我们要谈什么，也知道谈话的具体方向。

Three, I'm going to get their buy in. I'm going to say, that sound good? You're going to say, yeah. Now you know exactly where we're going. You know exactly what we're going to talk about.

你知道对话何时结束以及如何结束，并且已经获得了对方的认同。当有人说'好的，我们可以谈谈这个'时，这几乎就像一份无形的契约，他们不会想要违背它。

You know when that conversation is going to end and how it's going to end. And now have your buy in. And it's like almost an invisible contract when somebody goes, yeah, that's good. We can talk about that. They don't want to leave it.

他们不想违背自己的承诺，所以知道自己必须坚持到底。

They don't want to break their words. So they know that they're going to be stuck in it.

那么在进行这种困难对话时，有什么需要特别注意的地方吗？以确保我能成功达成预期结果？

And then is there anything I need to be aware of when I have that difficult conversation with them so that I don't so that I'm successful in getting to that outcome?

首要原则是设定明确的结束目标。这可能是困难对话中最难的部分，也是大多数人失败的原因。人们总期待对话会按照自己想象中的方式进行——就像早上刷牙或上班路上设想的那样：'我会这么说，然后他们会那么回应。'

Number one would be set the goal of knowing where it's going to end. That is the hardest, probably the biggest downfall of the difficult conversation. People expect them to go how they had it in their head. They want the conversation to happen just like they had it when they were brushing their teeth that morning or driving on the way into work. They're like, Okay, I'm going to say this.

你期待一切完全按照脑海中的剧本发展。但当对方说出你意料之外的话，突然表示不同意时，你就会想：'等等，不该是这样的，他们应该这么说才对。'

And then they're going to say this. And you expect everything to go just how you had it in your head. But as soon as they say that one thing you weren't expecting, all of a sudden they disagree with you. You go, wait, that's not how it's supposed to be. They were supposed to say this.

他们本该承认我是对的。他们本该承认自己错了。我是说，这样下去会怎样？然后事情就开始像那样动摇。

They were supposed to say I'm right. They were supposed to say they're wrong. I mean, how's this going to go? And then it begins to falter like that.

因为当我们陷入那些艰难对话时，无论是与同事、配偶还是任何人，我认为对许多人来说，目标很大程度上是赢得对话。是的，无论个人对'赢'如何定义。但执着于赢得对话真的是个好主意吗？

Because when we go into those difficult conversations, whether it's with a colleague or our spouse or whoever it might be, much of the objective, I think, for some of us win the conversation Yeah. In whatever definition of winning one might have. Is endeavoring to win a conversation a good idea?

我教导人们永远不要试图赢得争论。原因在此：当你执着于赢得争论时，往往会失去这段关系。就像如果你一心只想证明别人错了，或许能赢得论点，但你会失去那个人。正确并不能陪伴你度过孤独。

I teach that you never want to win an argument. And this is why. When you look to win an argument, you will often lose the relationship. Like if you set out to only prove people wrong, you might win the point, but you will lose the person. Being right doesn't keep you company.

这么说吧。当我审视他的论点时，发现唯一能赢得的不过是道歉的第一步——这通常是执着求胜的必然结果。因为大多数争论并非真正获胜，只是对方弃权罢了。

Let's put it that way. When I look at his arguments, there's only something to win. All I've won is really the first step to apologize, typically, when you set out to win. Because most arguments aren't really won. It's just they're won by forfeit.

有人会说'我受够了'。或者你说了些特别伤人的话，让他们决定'到此为止，不想再谈'。争论最终总会熄灭，这就是现实。

Somebody goes, I'm over this. Or you said something that was really hurtful that makes them say, we're done. I don't want to talk about this. An argument eventually burns out. That's what happens.

但当你执着求胜时，终将失去这段关系。比如你我争论时，我说了特别伤人的话，然后你离开或挂断电话——我赢得了什么？是的，现在我赢得了走廊相遇时的尴尬沉默，赢得了不得不打电话道歉的窘迫，还得想办法继续共事或相处。

But when you set out to win, you will lose the relationship. Like if you and I are in an argument, and I say something that's really hurtful, and then you leave, you hang up the phone, what have I won? Yeah, mean, I've won awkward silence now when we pass each other in the hall. I've won that awkward feeling now I have to pick up the phone and apologize. I still have to find a way to probably work with you or live with you.

你证明了什么？什么时候你在社交媒体上贬低别人的政治观点真的改变过他们的想法？从来没有。

What have you proven? When is ever you go on to social media and disparage somebody's political belief ever change their mind? Ever.

我有太多和女友'赢'了争论却感觉糟透的经历。是的，就是这种感受。因为她可能会对我说'我明白你的观点了，对不起'。

There's been so many arguments I've had girlfriend where I have, quote, unquote, won, and I felt like shit. Yeah. You will. Because I because she, like, she might come to me and say, do you know what? I understand your point, and I'm I'm sorry.

而我内心某处只觉得糟糕。因为我原以为那是我想要的结果，但实际上我渴望的是和解。我如此深爱这个人，对方的让步反而让我难受——那根本不是我要的，我真正想要的是和她幸福相处。

And there's part of me that just feels like shit. And I I it's it's because I thought that's the outcome I was looking for, but actually the outcome I was look looking for was resolution. And I actually love this person so much that a concession was not like was actually not it's not what I wanted. I actually wanted to be happy with them. Yeah.

所以我想说，最近有几个例子：当女友为我们分歧的事情向我道歉时，我只因她的道歉而感到难受。我只是想解释清楚...

So I'd say, you know, I was thinking of some some recent examples where my girlfriend came to me and apologized for something, where we were, like, disagreeing about it. And I just felt like shit that she apologized. I just want to explain.

是啊。是啊。是啊。不，这种经历并不罕见。每当你觉得自己必须永远正确时，那正是我们真正想要的。

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's not an uncommon experience. Whenever you feel like you had to always be right, that's what we really want.

我们想要最后发言权。当你有最后发言权时，通常你会是第一个道歉的人。这就是你给自己争取的全部。这就是你的奖品。恭喜。

We want the last word. When you have the last word, you are typically first up to apologize. That's all all you've bought yourself. That's your prize. Congrats.

当这种情况发生时，你会找到一种方式去想，那并不是我真正想知道的。我为什么要那么说？那只是傲慢。那只是我自己。我只是有一种正确的感觉。

And when that happens, you find a way of going, that's not really what I wondered. Why did I say that? That was just hubris. That was just me. I just had a feeling of being right.

有时候我们会有那种感觉，尤其是对于那些负责管理他人的人，我们期望别人按照我们说的去做。当你在工作模式下说‘我需要这个完成’，人们就会完成。你定下了基调。这就是我们想要的方式。有时候我们会把这种模式带入我们的浪漫关系中。

And sometimes we have that feeling of when, especially in terms of people that are in charge of other people, we expect others to do what we say. When you're in work mode and you say, I need this done, people get it done. You set the tone. This is how we want to do it. And sometimes we translate that into our own romantic relationships.

哦，不，我说过必须这样做。所以你知道你需要做什么吗？你需要这样做。这是一种不同的转变，当你在做浪漫的事情时，与你必须成为船长时的感觉是不同的。所以每当你陷入那些艰难的对话中，你似乎只想赢，那你就会有问题。

Oh, no, I said it needs to be this way. So you know what you need do? You need to do it this way. And it's a different shift when you're doing something that's romantic versus something that is you have to be captain of the ship. And so whenever you're in those difficult conversations, you only seem something to win, you're going to have a problem.

我教的是，不要把争论看作是赢的东西，而是看作是需要解开的东西。意思是，我们想要做的是拉我的方式，然后你拉你的方式。这只会让事情变得更糟。变得更糟。我们必须放弃。

What I teach is instead of seeing arguments as something to win, you see them as something to unravel. Meaning what we want to do is pull my way, and then you pull it your way. And it just makes it worse. Makes it worse. We have to give up.

直到下一次对话，我们才会真正尝试并关心发生了什么。我经常会告诉某人，帮我找到那个结。帮我找到那个结。我所做的是鼓励他们说，我不是在问‘你有什么问题？’我不是在问‘你能再蠢一点吗？’

And it's not until that next conversation that we actually try and care of what happened. I will often tell someone, help me find the knot. Help me find the knot. And what I'm doing is encouraging them to say I'm not saying, what's wrong with you? I'm not saying, can you be any more stupid?

我是说，帮我找到那个结。这是一种将问题分离的方式，将问题分离，说这是我们双方都需要看的东西，帮助解开‘我错过了什么？’这句话非常非常有效。如果你能问他们这个问题，‘我错过了什么？’他们总会告诉你。

I'm saying, help me find the knot. It's a way of detaching the issue, detaching the problem, saying this is something for us both to look at, help unravel where's the what am I missing? That phrase right there is very, very effective. If you can just ask them the question, what am I missing? They will always tell you.

但很可能，这不是你关注的东西。你只关注你在说什么。你没有关注他们在听什么。很大的区别。

But most likely, it's not something that you're focused on. You're only focused on what you're saying. You're not focused on what they're hearing. Big, big difference.

我这里有两个杯子在地上。是啊。尽量不要洒出来。不错。自从我当过服务员以来已经很久了。

I have two glasses on the floor here. Yeah. Try not to spill it. Nice. Time since I've been a waiter.

那么

So

我面前有这两杯水。我知道你有个关于进行良好有效对话的比喻，可以用这两杯水来演示。

I have these two glasses of water in front of me. What is I know there's an analogy you have for having a good, effective conversation that can be demonstrated with these two glasses of water.

是的。假设这个杯子代表我所有的想法和知识，而你的杯子则承载着你所有的想法和知识。不仅仅是现在的想法，还包括你一生中积累的所有认知。

Yeah. So let's say that this glass right here is all of my thoughts and knowledge. And your glass is all of your thoughts and knowledge. And not just what you think now. These are things that you've known throughout your entire life.

如果我想了解你的观点，比如政治立场或宗教信仰——我指的是那些你从小形成的根深蒂固的信念——那就是你杯中承载的内容。当我们与人交谈时，尤其是陌生人，常犯的错误是以为初次对话就该说服对方：如果我把自己所有的知识直接倒进你的杯子，理应毫无障碍。但实际会发生什么？

So if I were to tell you something about I want to get your thoughts maybe a political opinion or something that's a religious belief. I'm talking like deeply held beliefs that you grew up with. That's what's in that cup right there. When we go into a conversation with someone, often what we find is, especially if it's like a stranger, that what I say in our first conversation should convince you automatically that if I were to take all of my knowledge right here and I pour it in, there should be no problem. But what happens?

当我开始往你杯子里倾倒时，水会溢出来——这意味着你的认知空间已满。你根本没有容纳我想分享内容的余地。正确的做法是通过提问激发真正的好奇心：不是咄咄逼人地质问'你为什么相信这个？'，而是探究'你是怎么形成这个信念的？'

When I start to pour into here, it overflows, meaning you have no room. You have no room for what I want to share whatsoever. It's going to just it's overflow. Instead, what you have to find is ways to ask questions and get really curious, meaning instead of me pushing my point, instead of saying, why do you believe that? And beginning your question with why, I start to get really curious about how did you come to believe that?

'你在哪里学到的？''这件事何时发生的？'就像我作为出庭律师日常做的那样，通过层层提问触及核心：那个深植的信念究竟是什么？它的根源在哪里？因为只有到那时——现在让我们试着把你的水倒进我的杯子。

Where did you learn that? When did this happen? Ways that I get to ask questions every day like I do as a trial attorney to find ways of getting to the issue of what's that deeply held belief? Where does it come from? Because only then let's go ahead and pour yours into mine.

看，完美融合。唯有当你通过回答我的问题逐渐腾出空间——你每次多回答一点，再多一点——直到真正留出接纳我观点的余地。就像无法向已满的杯子注入新液体。

There you go. Perfect. So it's only then until you have space that I'm asking questions. Whenever I ask questions and you start to answer just a little bit more, and then you answer just a little bit more, to where you actually have space to care at all to what I'm going to tell you. Like, can't fill I can't fill a glass that's already full with new thoughts.

这根本行不通。除非我能让你主动倒空杯子，否则你永远不会接纳我要分享的内容。这就是艰难对话的关键：必须对言语背后的人保持真正的好奇。因为你看到的表象并非对话对象——此刻我虽在与Steven交谈，但影响你的那些经历远在我们对话之前就已存在。

It's not going to happen. It's not until I can get you to pour it all out, until you'll ever be receptive and have room for what I want to share with you. So that's the key in difficult conversations, that you have to find ways to get really curious about who's the person behind the words. Because the person you see isn't the person you're talking to. I might be talking to Steven right now, but there are things that happen in your life that you believe that happened long before I ever talked to you.

我们常陷入这种傲慢：认为只要此刻告诉你该相信什么，你就会立刻改变主意。但观念转变从来不是一次对话能完成的，往往需要上百次、上千次交流，历时数年才可能让人真正接纳你的观点。

And we have this hubris about us that we think that just because I told you you should believe something right at this moment, you're going to automatically change your mind. Minds don't get changed in one conversation. They happen over a year of 100 conversations, 1,000 conversations before anybody will ever be receptive to what you have to say.

能举个现实例子吗？关于'你对话的可能不是Steven本人，而是他正在应对的某些事'这个概念？

So what's like a real world example of this idea that you might not be talking to Steven, you might be talking to something he's dealing with?

是的。这么说吧，我以前有个客户。让我换个方式讲。我曾有一次取证，当时我在询问一位证人，他是个身材魁梧如山的大汉，名叫鲍比·拉普雷斯。

Yeah. So let's put it in terms of I've had a client before. This is how I let me rephrase that. I had a deposition before where I was talking to a witness, and he was a huge mountain of a man. His name was Bobby Lapres.

我正在和史蒂夫交谈。他体型巨大。他的手...我...站在他旁边，我看起来就像在各方面都相形见绌。不管我问什么，史蒂芬都会对我发火。我问的都是基本问题，比如你在哪里出生的，明白吗？

I'm talking to Steve. He was huge. His hands I he just looked I looked like I was physically deficient in every way next to this guy. And it didn't matter what I asked him, Stephen, he got mad at me. I I was asking him basic things, like where were you born, Okay?

然后你去了哪里？接下来发生了什么？每次提问，他都变得越来越愤怒。最后我不得不问他：你需要休息一下吗？

And where'd you go next? And what happened next? And every time, he would just get angrier and angrier. And eventually, I had to ask him. I said, do you need a break?

他说不用，但有话要说。我以为他要掀桌子了，他简直怒不可遏。当我问他时，他甚至对我说：别跟我来这套虚情假意。当然他用词更粗俗。

And he said, no, but I got something to say. And I thought he was about to just flip the table on me. He was just so furious. And I asked him, well, once he even told me, he said, you can cut all this buddy buddy stuff. Except he didn't say stuff.

他说：你们这些律师，你们这些法律人士，是政府体系里最糟糕的存在。你们是最烂的。尽管继续问你的蠢问题吧，但我对你的信任度为零。我没有像多数人那样被激怒，而是反问他一个问题。

And he said, you lawyers, you attorneys, you're the worst thing to happen in this government. You're the worst thing to happen. So you can go on and ask your stupid questions. But I don't trust you as far as I can throw you. Well, instead of taking that bait, which most people wanted to do, I asked them a question.

我问：我遗漏了什么？你生活中正在经历什么困境？最大的挣扎是什么？在取证中他们必须回答问题。于是我了解到，这个大块头鲍比·拉普雷斯刚把母亲送进养老院。

I said, what am I missing? What are you struggling with right now in your life? What's been your biggest struggle? And they have to answer questions in a deposition. And what I learned was that he, big old Bobby Lapres, this huge guy, had just put his mother in a nursing home.

他是唯一照顾母亲的人。父亲去世了，兄弟也不在身边。几个月来他不断收到律师关于母亲房产的信件——止赎通知、债务催收等各种他完全不懂的文件。那一刻，我代表着他认知中所有与法律和律师相关的负面形象。

And he was the only one to take care of her. His dad had died. His brother was off. And he had been getting letters for months about his mom and her home from lawyers, about foreclosing, making demands, debt collection, all these things that he just didn't understand. And so right then in that moment, I represented everything he knew about the law and lawyers and everything else.

所以我看到的是个充满攻击性的愤怒证人，但实际对话的对象是个忧心忡忡的儿子。我们深入交谈后，我帮助了他。结局很美好，最后我们甚至拥抱了。

And so the person I saw was an aggressive, mad witness. The person I was talking to was a worried son. And we got to talk that out, and I helped him. And it ended wonderful. We ended actually hugging.

但每天都会遇到这种微观时刻——你看到的人并非你真正对话的对象。那个看似粗鲁冷漠的女服务员，其实在担心本该两小时前下班却还在帮自己带孩子的母亲。或是职场中那个对你通话时语气生硬的人，表面暴躁实则因整夜与闹离婚的妻子争吵而心力交瘁。每个人都有看不见的困境，他们脑海里正进行着一场你未被邀请的对话。

But every day, you have these micro moments of the person you see is not the person you're talking to. The waitress that looks like she's being rude and dismissive is actually worried because she should have gotten off two hours ago, and her mom is still keeping her kids. Or you have somebody who, even in the workplace, who seem like they're a little bit short on their phone call with you, somebody who looks like they're aggravated, actually, day began because he and his wife were going through a divorce, they stayed up all night arguing. Everybody has a struggle that you can't see. They're having a conversation in their head that you were not invited to.

所以当你耐心尝试理解言语背后的人时，事情会顺利得多。对方能感受到这份理解。若仅凭表象判断，结果往往大相径庭。如果我要指出你的错误并改变你的想法，比如现在，我多半不会说史蒂芬错了，而是说你的认知方式需要调整。

And so when you have the patience to try and understand the person behind the words, that's going to go a whole lot better for you. And they'll feel that. When you just want to accept them for what they look like, it's always different. If I were to tell you you were wrong about something, for me to change your mind, like right now, I most likely am not saying that Stephen's wrong. I'm saying your parents are wrong.

我在说祖辈是错的。你从小到大所经历的某些事情都是错的。你成长时期参加的那些夏令营全是错的。正是这些碎片和身份认同共同塑造了你现在的信念。而我们有个可怕的习惯，不知为何总认为只要此刻我当面告诉你，一切就会立刻改变。

I'm saying a grandparent's wrong. Something you grew up your whole life was wrong. That camp you went to growing up was all wrong. There's pieces and identities that have all combined into what you believe now. And we have this horrible habit of thinking, for some reason, that if I say it to you right in this moment, it's all going to change.

然后你就会立即变成我想要你成为的样子。

And you're going to just immediately conform to what I want you to be.

情绪被触发就是典型表现对吧？就像当我们说'天啊他们好容易被激怒'时，其实你是在抓挠一个可能多年前就存在的伤口。听你说话时我想起一个朋友，记得疫情期间有次对话，他突然对我说'住院的都是年轻健康的人'。当时我借住在他家，记得自己立刻反驳说'不'。

Being triggered is a hallmark of that, isn't it? Like, being when we say, oh, god, they're easily triggered, it's really you're scratching at an open wound that might have been there many years ago. I was reflecting as you were speaking about a particular friend that I have who I remember a conversation with him in the middle of the pandemic where he turned to me and said, it's people that are young and healthy that are ending up in hospital beds. And I remember saying to him, I like, I was living in his house. I was like, no.

我记得NHS官网显示住院的多是体态欠佳的中老年人。他当时反应异常激烈。因为是挚友，我们深入探讨了这个问题，不断挖掘根源——正因为我们关系够铁才能这样坦诚。

I don't think that I think the the NHS website says it's people that are, like, out of shape and slightly older that are ending up in hospital beds. And he, like, was, like, really, really triggered by that. And I remember he's, like, a good friend of mine. So we had a conversation about it. And we dug and dug and dug because we had, like, really good friends.

就像所有男生在群聊互怼时，只要有人说'你错了'，再加一句'等等还有一点'，瞬间就能引发暴怒。

Like, why why is it that all of us as, like, boys, we know in, like, the group chat when we're bantering, all we've got to do is say, like, now you're wrong. Wait. One more thing. One thing. And it's a red mist.

过去一年半我们对此进行了非常坦诚的交流。他告诉我，小时候所有老师都认为他愚笨，在操场因此遭受霸凌，后来还发现祖母给母亲发的短信里也说他蠢。

Yeah. And we had, like, a really open conversation about it over really over the last, like, year and a half. And he said, when I was younger, all of the teachers thought I was stupid. And, also, I then got bullied on the playground because people thought I was stupid. And then I found text messages from my grandmother to my mom where they said I was stupid.

成绩单上老师基本给他判了'死刑'。所以三十年后，当我们只是闲聊疫情时，我说'不我觉得不是这样'并打开官网佐证，他就会陷入我们称之为'红雾'的暴怒状态。

And then I found on my report card, they'd basically written me off. So thirty years later, when we're having a conversation, just a trivial conversation about the pandemic, when I go, no. I don't think that's right. And I, like, pull up the website and stuff. And he gets like, sees the red mist as me and him call it now.

这一切都追溯到三十年前操场上的经历。

It all stems back thirty years to this experience of on the playground.

嗯。

So Mhmm.

就像你说的，表面是在证明对方错误，但对他而言反而是证明了当年霸凌者的正确。是的，这证明了所有伤害过他的人是对的。三十年后这种情绪就以'红雾'形式爆发。

Like you said, it could be proving proving someone wrong, but in that case, it's actually like proving the bullies right. Yes. It's proving all the people that hurt him right. Yeah. And it's showing up thirty years later as this red mist.

故事的结局是他去看了心理医生并倾诉了这件事。现在他已经尽己所能解决了这个问题，当那种感觉出现时，他能识别出来。他知道那是什么。因此这种感觉不再主导他的决定。

The story ends with him going to a therapist and speaking about it. And he's resolved it now to the extent to which he can, where now when he feels that feeling, he's able to point it. He knows what it is. And so it doesn't make the decision.

没错。识别自己的触发点是最大的防御方式之一。就像你朋友告诉你的那样，有趣的是，每个人生活中的许多事情都能追溯到童年操场上的经历。比如现在你可能还记得某个孩子说过的话，高中时某人的某句话立刻浮现在脑海。

Right. Knowing your trigger is one of the biggest ways to defend against that, to know your trigger. And it's funny how, just like your friend is telling you, so many things in everybody's life goes back to the playground. Like, can remember that thing that that one kid said, like, now, you can probably remember it. What somebody said in high school Came straight to mind.

多年来你一直记得那句话，它伴随你这么久。仅仅是他们当时说的一句话，你就形成了那个身份认同，那就是触发点。如果你触碰了别人的触发点，反应会截然不同。法庭上这种情况很明显——当有人把一级对话突然升级到十级，这种不成比例的反应很能说明问题。

And it's been years, years that you remember it, and it lives with you for that long. It was just simply what they had said in that moment, that you've created that identity, that's a trigger. And if you tend to hit somebody with a trigger, it's different. It's very telling in the courtroom when somebody takes a level one conversation and they ratchet it up to a level 10. It's very disproportionate.

这说明他们脑海里正在进行一场你未被邀请参与的对话。意味着另有隐情。当你有耐心和修养去发现那个人而不是只停留在表面争执时，你总能与对方建立更深层的连接。

And it tells you that there's a conversation happening in their head that you weren't invited to. It tells you that something else is going on. And when you have the patience and the discipline to find that person rather than just fighting the surface, you will always have a deeper connection with that other person.

如果你在恋爱关系或工作中遇到那种容易被触发的人，对于需要与这种持续易怒者相处的人，你有什么建议？他们总是看到红色迷雾，根本无法沟通，因为他们会瞬间暴怒到十级。是的，他们回避艰难对话。

If you're dealing with someone in your romantic relationship at work, whatever, that is easily triggered in that regard, what advice would you give to the person dealing with that person who is, like, continually easily triggered? They see the red mist all the time. So it's impossible to talk to them because they immediately just flip to 10. Yeah. They avoid the difficult conversation.

你现在觉得甚至无法和他们讨论这个问题，因为他们要么立即倒打一耙，要么直接暴怒失控，陷入情绪淹没状态。对吧？我听过这种说法，当大脑被情绪淹没时，他们就会完全被情绪吞噬。

You feel now that you can't even have that conversation with them because they're immediately gonna gaslight you or they're just gonna go straight to 10, and they're going to be flooded. Right. You know that phrase that I've heard before about, like, when the brain gets flooded, like, they just get overwhelmed in there.

是的。

Yes.

面对这种人该怎么办？就...保持好奇还是？

What do you do with that kind of person? You just Well, curious or

我不想简单说保持好奇，因为觉得这个词不够准确。首先要做的是延迟回应——在他们发言后留出足够间隔。如果继续追问'为什么不能谈这个？你有什么问题？'

it's I don't want to just say curious because I don't I think that doesn't do it justice. One would be you have to delay what they said from when you respond. You have to add a lot of distance there. Because if you continue to engage and go, why can't you talk about this? What's wrong with you?

只会让情况更恶化。他们接收到的信息会是'我有问题，我的感受是错的'，而此刻他们的身体正在抗争，觉得'我感到威胁，我很焦虑，必须逃离这里'。

That will only spiral it more. What they're going to hear is something is wrong with me, something I am feeling is bad, when in that moment their body is fighting. Their body is going, I feel threatened. I feel anxious. I've to get out of here.

这一切都在瞬息间发生。除了给予对方空间去处理这种情绪触发点外，你说什么都无济于事。这意味着你需要以这种认知为前提来寻找对话方式。比如保持距离，不在对方情绪激动时继续当前话题——你绝不该那么做。

And it's happening in micro minutes. There's nothing you're going to be able to say that's going to help that trigger aside from you allowing them the space to have it. So that means you're going to find ways to approach conversations with that in mind. So one would be adding distance and not addressing it in that current conversation because they're triggered. You don't want to do that.

你应该在后续对话中处理这个问题。第一次交谈时可以轻松结束：'我们可以先搁置这个话题，没问题，改天再聊'。因为斯蒂芬，当你试图强迫别人按你的时间表进行对话时，问题就产生了。

You want to find it in the second conversation. So in the first one, you can easily end it with, hey, we can drop it. Not a problem. We can talk about it later. Because problems happen, Stephen, when you try and push people into having conversations on your timeline.

换句话说，就是在对方没准备好的时候。有没有人突然对你说'嘿，我现在就要和你谈谈'？而你心里想的却是'现在？最不想做的就是谈话'——这感觉就像对方在控制你的时间。

In other words, when they're not ready. Have ever had somebody come up to you and go, hey, I need to talk to you right now? And you're like, oh, want to talk? That's the last thing. You're trying to control my time.

'这不是我现在想谈的'，'我还没准备好进行这场对话'。当有人试图把他们的时间表强加给你时，就会引发大问题。我们可以探讨应对方法，但现实往往如此。

This is not what I want to talk about right now. And I'm not ready for this conversation. And that causes a big problem when somebody's trying to push their timeline on you. We can talk about ways to deal with that. That's what happens.

如果你还用'你怎么回事？为什么现在不能谈这个？'这样的态度，就是在把对方逼到墙角，让他们更加抗拒。我的意思是，他们会筑起心墙，彻底对你关闭沟通渠道。

And when you do it with somebody going, what's wrong with you? Why can't you talk about this right now? You're just pushing them into a corner, and you're making them harder. I mean, they become hardened. They'll totally shut off from you.

然后他们就消失了。很可能好几天都不会回来。所以当你施压时，事情就会变糟。这就是当某人感到被触发时的状态。第二次对话，下一次交谈，我喜欢称之为'给对话加个框架'。

Then they're gone. Then they won't come back for several days, most likely. So when you start to push on them, things go wrong. So that's when somebody's feeling triggered. That second conversation, that next conversation, is the, I like let's put a frame on it.

我喜欢这样说：'我想聊聊上周一我们开始讨论的事。我不是要解决什么，只是想理解你的立场，这样我能做得更好。我们可以这样沟通吗？'——这样的开场白远比'嘿，有个问题要问你'更能搭建困难的对话框架。

I like to talk about what we began talking on last Monday. And I'm not trying to solve anything. I just want to understand where you're coming from so that I can do better. Can we do that? Like right there, that's going to be a much better way to set up and frame that difficult conversation rather than going, hey, so question for you.

'你到底怎么了？因为明显不太对劲'——这种说法只会再次触发对方的防御机制。

What's up with you? Because something's off, all right? That's the way that you're going to trigger them again.

很多人都迫切想知道如何应对不尊重他人的人。是啊，比如被轻视的情况。

So many people are so interested in understanding how to deal with disrespectful people. Yeah. Like, being disrespected.

没错。

Right.

那么如果我受到不尊重，是否有应对的指南？为什么这么多人如此痴迷于，比如，

So if I'm being disrespected, is there a playbook for me to handle that? And why is it that so many people are so obsessed with, like,

处理不尊重的行为？我发现人们真的很喜欢回击的方式。我觉得这很有趣。但出于一个重要原因，这是沟通中的一大重点。当有人贬低你、粗鲁或无礼时，我针对每种情况会教授略有不同的方法。

dealing with disrespect? I find that people are really attracted to comebacks of things. And I find that so funny. But it's a big part of communication for an important reason. When somebody is, let's say, belittling you or being rude or being disrespectful, there's kind of I teach a little bit of a different method for each one.

你的处理方式会产生很大影响。通常当别人对我们粗鲁或不敬时，我们想直接怼回去。我们想升级冲突。因为现在我们必须赢。所以，哦，你觉得我蠢？

And how you handle it makes a very big difference. What we typically want to do when somebody is being rude to us or disrespectful, we want to throw it right back at their face. We want to ratchet it up. Because now we've got to win. So, oh, you think I'm stupid?

那让我说说你有多蠢。我们想把话扔回给对方。这只会让冲突升级。然后又开始比谁先道歉。这就是这类争执的走向。

Let me talk about how you're stupid. So we want to throw it back at the other person. All that does is ratchet it up. And then again, it becomes to who's going to apologize first. That kind of is where the game starts to lead.

我好奇你现在书里写了什么内容。

What do you I was curious what you have on the book now.

嗯，刚才正在看你书中关于应对难相处之人的章节。

Well, was just looking at this section in your book about dealing with difficult people.

是的。那可能是我最喜欢的部分。

Yeah. That's probably my favorite.

是你最喜欢的？

It's your favorite?

对。可能也是书中最受欢迎的部分，因为它提供了处理这类人的具体手册。我是从法庭证词和交叉询问中那些特别好斗的人身上总结出来的——你以为用直接回击他们的上勾拳就能掌握主动权。但像你这样聪明的人，Stephen，还有你的听众们，我们总有种冲动：当别人出言不逊时，我们想抛出妙语。想精心设计一句诗意到让对方两天后才反应过来的话。

Yeah. It was also probably the most popular part of the book because it outlines a specific manual on how to handle these kinds of people. And I've developed it from these people specifically that I've had in depositions and cross examinations in the courtroom, that very combative people, that you find ways to you think that the power is in having a direct response back at them that's going to uppercut them. Like, smart people, people like you, Stephen, people like all your listeners, we have this desire that when somebody says something ugly, we want to send a zinger. We want to craft something so poetic that it's not going to hit them until the two days.

让他们事后才惊呼“天哪，她完全打败了我”。但这不会发生。真正的力量在于这种‘上善若水’的心态。不是直接对抗，而是避开锋芒，将冲突引开，用行动表明‘你的话威胁不到我’。

They go, oh my gosh, she totally got me. And that's just not going to happen. But the true power is this kind of be like water mentality. Instead of direct with them, you're just avoiding it. You're pushing it out of the way to where you're going, what you're saying is not threatening to me.

你可以通过几种不同的方式来处理。以下是我建议应对贬低或不尊重你的人的方法：第一，保持沉默。五到七秒的静默。第二，要求对方重复他们的话。

And you do that in several different ways. This would be how I'd say how to handle people that are belittling you or giving you disrespect. One, you're going to add silence. Five to seven seconds of nothing. Two, you're going to ask them to say it again.

假设是侮辱性言论。这些侮辱非常直接。你要让他们重复一遍。第三，你就让那句话晾在那里。不管他们说什么。

Let's say it's insults. The insults are very direct. You're ask them to repeat it. And three, you're going to just let that sit. It's whatever they say.

举个例子，我们用一个具体案例来说明。假设有人直接侮辱你。侮辱不同于不尊重或粗鲁行为。侮辱是非常直接的。比如有人说你长得丑。

So for example, let's put it in terms of somebody who let's give it an example. This would be somebody who's given you just a straight insult. Insults are different from disrespect or something being rude. Insults are very direct. Somebody saying, like, you're ugly.

对吧？如果我说你长得丑，你会怎么回应？顺便说一句，你并不丑。我们只是假设。

Right? How I if I were to say, you're ugly, how would you respond? And you're not, by the way. But let's just say.

这真的很困难，因为这要看具体情况。我可能会...

It's so it's so hard because it's, like, the context dependent. I can be just so

我听到的话会笑。但是，是的。如果是像...

I hear I'd laugh. But Yeah. Yeah. If it was like

这取决于具体情况，不是吗？

it depends on the context, doesn't it?

是啊。比如说'哦，你就选了这件衬衫？'我想是吧。好吧。行。

Yeah. Was like, oh, that's the shirt you went with? I guess. All right. Okay.

当有人侮辱你时，我们很容易生气、耿耿于怀。但最好的处理方式是：假设你对我说'杰斐逊，我真的觉得你是个白痴'。先沉默片刻。然后我会重复'我是个白痴，杰斐逊'。这样就把焦点转回你身上，让你要么确认这句话，要么加倍坚持，要么道歉。

Whenever somebody insults insulting you, we have this ability to get really mad and stew on it and get angry. But best way to do it is, let's say, you told me, I really think you're an idiot, Jefferson. Give it a little bit of silence. And I would repeat, I'm an idiot, Jefferson. Now it's going to put a spotlight right back on you for you to confirm it, double down on it, or you're going to apologize.

很多时候在争论中，人们会收回这句话。'对不起，我不该那么说。我太冲动了。'但如果他们坚持己见，你只需要表示感谢。

A lot of time in arguments, people take it back. I'm sorry. I shouldn't have said that. My head was I got too in front of it. But if they double down on it, all you need to do is just thank them.

谢谢。换句话说，感谢你让我看清了你的真面目。感谢你确保我不会再与你为伍。这就是你在我生命中的角色。这与那些贬低你、居高临下对待你的人截然不同。

Thank you. In other words, thank you for showing me who you are. Thank you for making sure that I'm not going to be with you anymore. This is who you are in my life. Very different from, let's say, with somebody who is belittling you, patronizing you, being condescending to you.

接下来才有趣呢。这是我最喜欢的部分之一。我们来测试一下。哦，史蒂文，我看你瘦了些。真不错，老兄。

This is where it gets fun. This is one of my favorite ones. So let's give this a test. Oh, Steven, I see that you lost some weight. That's great, man.

为你高兴。你通常想怎么回应这种话？

Good for you. How would you typically want to respond to that?

谢谢。

Thank you.

对。但如果我说得更难听些，比如：哦你终于瘦了，我还在想你什么时候能减下来呢。不错嘛。你还会说谢谢吗？

Yeah. Now, if I had said something that was a little bit more ugly, if it was like, oh, you finally lost some weight, I was wondering when you would. Yeah. That's good on you. Would you still say thank you again?

不会吧。那你会说什么？

No. Yeah. What would you say?

太无礼了。

That's rude.

没错。你可能会说：哦，好吧，这话有点冒犯。所以我希望你这样做——保持沉默。我们要保持五到七秒的沉默。

Yeah, exactly. You'd be like, oh, Okay, that's a little offensive. So here's what I would want you to do. Add silence. We're going to have five to seven seconds of silence.

这样做能让对方的话悬在空中。首先，这表明他们的话没有威胁性。你留出这段空白有两个原因：一是让自己冷静，可以利用我们之前说的深呼吸；二是让他们听到自己说的话，就像他们把话扔到木板上，现在孤立无援了。

And what that does is allow them their words to fall. So it's going to, one, tell you that their words aren't threatening. You're adding that space in there for two reasons. One, to calm you down, because you can be using that breath we talked about. Second of all, it allows them to hear their words back, because it's like they walk their words out onto a plank, now they're all alone.

比如你对我说了难听的话：'哦杰斐逊，很高兴你来。勉强算上你吧。你刚来的吧？'这种让我感觉被排斥的话。如果我让这话悬一会儿，然后问一个意图性问题——我称之为'意图质问'——比如：'你说这话是想让我难堪吗？'

So if you had said something ugly to me and you said something like, oh, well, Jefferson, great to be here. I guess we'll include you. I guess you just came. It's something that made me feel like I wasn't one. And if I just let that hang for a little bit, and then I ask a question of intent these are what I call questions of intent where it says, did you say that to upset me?

你这么说是为了伤害我吗？还是你的本意？如果你用‘你的本意’开头。你的本意是要冒犯我吗？你的本意是要显得无礼吗？

Did you say that to hurt me? Or did you mean? If you begin your phrase with did you mean. Did you mean for that to offend me? Did you mean for that to be rude?

我在邮件往来或短信中经常这样做。当有人发来让你突然觉得粗鲁的内容时，其实只要问一句‘你的本意是要听起来很简短吗’，问题几乎立刻就能解决，因为很多时候人们并非有意为之。但他们会对你说的话做出回应，很可能他们会说不是。他们不知道该如何应对这种情况。

I do this a lot in email correspondence or texts. When somebody sends something to you and you feel like all of a sudden it's rude, but really if you just text, did you mean for that to sound short, it cures up almost instantly because it's not exactly a lot of the time people don't mean it that way. But they're going to say something to you that is going to respond in most likely, they're going to say no. They're not going to know how to handle that. They're not going to deal with that.

如果你能回应说，想象一下——想象一下说这种话的人会是什么样子。或者‘你希望我有什么感受？’或者问他们，‘你说这话时自己是什么感觉？你说这话时心里是什么感受？’你要对我说难听的话，而我会长时间沉默。

If you can respond with imagine being like, imagine being the person who would say that. Or how did you want me to feel? Or ask them, how did you feel when you said that? How does it make you feel when you say that? You're going to say something ugly to me, and I give it a big pause.

然后我会回应：‘你对我说这种话时心里是什么感受？’或者‘我很惊讶你居然把这话说出口了。’

And I would respond, how does it make you feel when you say that to me? Or I'm surprised you said that out loud.

你不能直接告诉他们你的感受吗？就不能说‘这话真的很伤人’？

Can you just tell them how it felt? Can you just say, that was really hurtful?

可以，但这样正中他们下怀。你在给他们多巴胺刺激。那正是他们想要的。他们说那些话就是为了伤害你。

Yeah, you can. But that's giving them what they want. You're giving them the dopamine. That's what they wanted. They said that so that it would hurt.

他们说那些话是因为，在他们心里，他们希望你感受到痛苦。他们想从你那里夺取这种感觉。他们想要那种掌控感。所以当你说‘哦，这很伤人’时，往往正是他们那一刻想要的。

They're saying that because in their mind, they wanted you to have that sense of pain. They wanted to grab that from you. They wanted that sense of control. So when you say, oh, that hurt. Often that's exactly what they wanted in that moment.

虽然过段时间他们可能会意识到‘哦，我当时确实很混蛋’，但在那一刻他们想要的就是从你这里获得多巴胺刺激。他们想要那种掌控感。所以当你质问他们时——比如我说‘这样很无礼’，你就是在满足他们的需求。这是直接陈述。

Now it's going to take them some time to realize, oh, I was really a jerk about that. But in that moment what they're wanting is that hit a dopamine from you. They're wanting that sense of control. So when you ask them a question, so if I were to say, that was rude, you're giving them what they want. That's a direct statement.

但如果我问：‘你说这话是为了显得无礼吗？你的本意是要听起来很粗鲁吗？’现在他们必须承认。这就完全不同了。现在他们必须承认自己当时的意图。

But if I ask, did you say that to be rude? Did you mean for that to sound rude? Now they have to admit. That's very different. Now they have to admit what their intent was with that.

现在他们必须回答是或不是。大多数时候，他们会支支吾吾地说：‘哦，我是说，我想说的是，不不不，对不起，我的意思是...’因为他们现在不想伤害人了——他们怕损害自己的声誉。

Now they have to say yes or no. Most of the time, what they do is they kind of fumble over their words. They go, oh, I mean, what I meant to say was, no, no, no, I'm sorry. What I meant was because they don't want to hurt now. They're going hurt their reputation.

现在他们把自己逼得太绝了，那样会更难收场。

Now they're going to they put themselves way too far out on a ledge, and that's much harder.

在你《下一次对话》这本书的第166页，你写道：当你听到某人说粗鲁或侮辱性的话时，要明白他们是想从你这里得到什么。那东西就是多巴胺，让人感觉良好的荷尔蒙。那东西就是多巴胺。

On page 166 of your book, The Next Conversation, you say, when you hear someone say something rude or insulting, understand that they're wanting something from you. That something is dopamine. The feel good hormone. That something is dopamine.

没错。所以当有人出言不逊时，他们想要的是你的情绪反应。他们在说：我不开心，只有让你也不开心我才会满足。这样我才会觉得理所当然。

Yeah. So when somebody says something to be ugly, what they're wanting is your emotion. They're saying, I'm unhappy. I'm only going to be satisfied if I can make you a little bit unhappy, too. That's where I'm going to feel justified in this.

只有当我给你造成了痛苦，我才会觉得理所当然。而这时，你最好的防御就是像块湿毯子，像片湿面包让他们无从下手——既挪不动也控制不了。你此刻传递给他们的信息是：这对你不会有什么乐趣。

I'm only going to feel justified when I've caused you pain. And when that happens, your best defense against that is to be like a wet blanket, like be a soggy piece of bread that they can't do anything with. They can't move that. They can't control that. And what you're telling them in that moment is, it's not going to be that fun for you.

这才是应对霸凌的最佳方式。霸凌者做了某事后，你问他：你说这话是为了伤害我吗？还是这么说让你感觉很好？或者你说这话时期望我怎么回应？

And that's the best way to handle a bully. Bully does something. And you ask them, did you say that to hurt me? Or does it feel good for you to say that? Or how did you want me to respond when you said that?

假设我进来说：哦，我想这还行吧。嗯，我们可以在这里谈。没问题对吧？这话其实有点居高临下。

Let's say I came in and I go, oh, I guess this is Okay. Yeah, guess we can talk in here. That's fine. Right? I mean, that's kind of condescending.

是吧？如果当时你问我：你是有意说得这么无礼吗？我可能会说：哦不，天哪。要么是我在指出来，要么你会说：把这种话说出口真奇怪。

Yeah, wouldn't you say? And if you had asked me in that moment, did you mean for that to sound rude? I'd be like, oh no, goodness. Either I'm calling it out or you'd say, that's an odd thing to say out loud.

这适用于所有场合吗？比如...如果你是个实习生，能对公司CEO这么说吗？嗯。

Can you say that in all context? So I'm thinking if Yeah. You Can you say that to your, like, the CEO of the company? You're an intern. Mhmm.

当他们对你说了些什么，看着你做的作品说：呃，我想这还算可以吧。

And they say something to you. And that they look at a piece of work you've made and they go, I mean, I guess that's okay.

是啊。你知道吗...

Yeah. Do you know

什么意思？这里上下文重要吗？

what mean? Does context matter here?

嗯，我还是认为你可以说出来。意思是，这取决于你如何休闲。对，就是看情况。是的，上下文在某种程度上当然重要。

Well, I I still think you can say it. Mean, depends how you're going to Leisure. Yeah. It just depends. Yeah, context certainly matters on some level.

但如果这是一个立场问题——我认为如果存在巨大的权力动态差异，比如你是个实习生，而对方正情绪不佳，这时可能不适合选择让他难堪的方式。或者说'好吧，我接受'或'我可以做得更好'，这些都是化解无礼的方式。另一种我很喜欢用的说法（虽然不适用于这种场景）是'这达不到我的回应标准'——那些都是非常糟糕的论点。

But if it is a position of just I think if there's such a huge power dynamic, something like that, if you're an intern and you're like, look, this guy's just having a bad day, don't think I need this is not the time for me to choose to try and have a way of making him feel bad. Or if it's like, Okay, I'll accept that, or I can do better with that. There's ways that you can try and diffuse the rudeness. Another that I really like to use this would not be in that context, but that's below my standard for a response. Those are really bad arguments.

我遇到过用'这达不到我的回应标准'来应对极其糟糕的论点，对方真的会哑口无言。在取证时，当有人对我阴阳怪气，我就会问'你希望我怎么回应这句话？'——他们往往答不上来。

I've had it where really, really bad arguments where you've used, that's below my standard for a response. They really don't know what to say after that. A lot of the times when I'm in depositions and somebody has a snarky comment towards me, I'll ask them, now how did you want me to respond to that? They don't know. They don't really have an answer.

他们通常会支吾着'呃，我的意思是...'然后修正言辞。但你传递的信号很明确：下次再这样可不会有好结果。这就是让他们重复话语的意义所在。

They kind of just go, oh, I mean, what I meant was. And they fix it. But the signal you're sending, the whole point of it all, is to show them that the next time you choose to do this, it's not going to be fun. This is not what you're getting. That's the whole point of getting them to repeat a lot of the times.

如果我说'我没听清，能重复一遍吗？'，他们根本不敢再说第二次。

If I say, you know what? I didn't catch that. Can you say that again? They can't bear to say that again.

就像是在设定对话边界，我是这个意思。

It's like conversational boundaries, is what I'm saying.

没错。比如有次我处理两姐妹的案子，过程就像你想象的那么'有趣'。两位姐姐为父亲留下的公司争执不休。

Yeah. So one time I had a case between two sisters. And it was about as fun as it sounds. Two older sisters, they're fighting over our company. Their dad had passed away.

我代理其中一位，另一位由我律师朋友代理。我的客户非常理智，想守护家族企业；另一位则生活选择迥异，坚持要卖掉公司。

I had one sister, another attorney friend of mine had another sister. And my client was, let's say, very level headed. She wanted to preserve the legacy of the family and the company. The other had very different life choices, let's say. And the other one wanted to sell the company.

后来她们基本达成收购协议。调解时，我们早料到对方会口无遮拦。我提前告诉客户：如果她出言不逊，我会要求她重复那句话——明白吗？

Well, eventually came to almost an agreement on how they were going to divvy up, buy the sister out. We're at mediation. And we knew that this other sister was there's no telling what she's to say out of her mouth. And I had already prepared my client for if she insults, if she says anything ugly, I'm going to ask her to say that again. All right?