布琳·布朗：我们正面临一场精神危机！无人愿承认的隐秘流行病！

你是最受期待的嘉宾。

You are the single most requested guest.

让我告诉你，这并不容易，因为我们触及了一些艰难的领域。但我想我们永远不会讨论比这更重要的话题，因为阻碍我们在生活和工作中勇敢前行的并非恐惧，而是当我们害怕时，为自我保护而披上的盔甲，以及这盔甲如何让我们远离爱、联结和我们的价值观。最困难的工作是意识到当我害怕时，我的盔甲是什么。

And let me tell you, this has not been easy because we went to some hard places. But I don't think we'll ever talk about anything more important than this because it's not fear that gets in the way of us being brave with our lives and our work. It's the armor that we reach for to self protect when we're afraid, and how that armor moves us away from love, connection, and our values. And the hardest work is being aware of what is my armor when I'm afraid.

这是自动的吗？哦，

Is that automatic? Oh,

不。这是一种训练。

no. It's a training.

那我们就从这里开始吧。

So let's start with that then.

布琳·布朗是一位标志性人物，她在羞耻、脆弱和联结领域的世界领先研究

Brene Brown is an icon. Whose world leading research in shame, vulnerability, and connection

激励了皮克斯、谷歌和美国特种部队等公司

Has inspired companies like Pixar, Google, and the US Special Forces

培养更强大的领导者，并帮助普通人释放他们的全部潜能。

to build stronger leaders and help the everyday person unlock their full potential.

准备好了吗？脆弱性重要吗？

Ready? Is vulnerability important?

如果我们想勇敢地生活，它确实重要。但我们从小被教育脆弱就是软弱。比如在我的家庭里，愤怒是被允许的，但悲伤是不被接受的。你必须坚强。所以当我感到害怕、焦虑或失望时，我只会愤怒。当你成长过程中缺乏脆弱性，这会让你处于危险之中。

It is if we wanna be brave with our lives, but we are raised to believe that vulnerability is weakness. Like, in my family, we were allowed anger, but sad was not an option. You needed to be tough. And so when I get scared, when I feel anxious, disappointed, I'm just angry. And so when you're raised without vulnerability, it'll put you in jeopardy.

你想知道脆弱是什么吗？快乐。快乐是如此脆弱，以至于人们宁愿选择活在失望中，也不愿对某事感到兴奋并冒着被失望重击的风险。没有脆弱就没有勇气，因为勇气就是愿意在无法预知结果时全力以赴。

Like, you wanna know what vulnerability is? Joy. Joy is so vulnerable that people choose to live disappointed rather than to get excited about something and risk getting sucker punched by disappointment. Like, there is no courage without vulnerability because courage is the willingness to show up and be all in when you cannot predict the outcome.

哇，我从未这样想过。

Wow. I've never thought about that before.

但你可以培养这些能力。

But you can develop skills.

分为这四个步骤

Make it these four steps

致勇气。是的。我们已经带领16.5万人完成了这项工作，其中包括如何建立信任。

to courage. Yes. We've taken a 165,000 people through this work that included how to build trust.

我听说过你的弹珠罐理论。能解释一下你的弹珠罐吗？看你这么兴奋。我知道。所以

And I've heard about your marble jar theory. Could you explain to me what your marble jar look at how excited you are. I know. So

这就是我们向财富100强公司最高层领导者传授信任的方式。这太棒了。

this is how we teach trust to the most senior leaders in Fortune 100 companies. It's awesome.

请给我三十秒时间。我想说两件事。首先，衷心感谢你们每周都收听我们的节目。这对我们所有人来说意义重大，这真的是我们从未有过、也想象不到能实现的梦想。但其次，我们感觉这个梦想才刚刚开始。

Just give me thirty seconds of your time. Two things I wanted to say. The first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning into the show week after week. It means the world to all of us, and this really is a dream that we absolutely never had and couldn't have imagined getting to this place. But secondly, it's a dream where we feel like we're only just getting started.

如果你喜欢我们在这里所做的一切，请加入那24%定期收听本播客的听众行列，并在这个应用上关注我们。我向你保证：我将竭尽全力让这个节目现在和未来都做到最好。我们会邀请你想让我对话的嘉宾，并继续保留你喜爱这个节目的所有元素。谢谢。

And if you enjoy what we do here, please join the 24% of people that listen to this podcast regularly and follow us on this app. Here's promise I'm gonna make to you. I'm gonna do everything in my power to make this show as good as I can now and into the future. We're gonna deliver the guests that you want me to speak to and we're gonna continue to keep doing all of the things you love about this show. Thank you.

蕾妮，为了理解你所做的工作、你对世界的看法，以及你在许多方面作为异类的身份，我认为了解你最初的成长背景、你的来处、是什么塑造了你可能很重要。

Renee, in order to understand all the work that you have done and the perspective that you have on the world and also who you are as a anomaly in many respects, I it's think probably important that I understand your earliest context, where you've come from, what shaped you.

我卡住了。我...我是个异类吗？

I'm stuck on it. Am I am I an anomaly?

当然，你是个异类。当然，你是个异类。这对你来说应该不足为奇。我是说，如果你看看自己的成就，你的成就就是异常的。所以人们会认为有某种形式或原因让你成为异类。

I of course, you're an anomaly. Of course, you're an anomaly. That that should be of no surprise to you. I mean, if you look at your outcomes, your outcomes are anomalous. So one would assume that there's some form or something that made you an anomaly.

我会说我是第五代德州人。我来自一个相当不正常的家庭，父母用他们所知尽力而为，两人都来自极其、极其、极其艰难的成长环境，包括贫困和成瘾问题。所以可能很多关于第五代德州人的刻板印象——坚强、不许哭——在我们身上都能看到。我们被允许的情绪范围非常有限，只有生气或没事。比如愤怒是可以的，但不能真的表现出悲伤。

I would say that I'm a fifth generation Texan. I came from a fair amount of dysfunction, parents doing the best they could with what they knew, both coming from really, really, really tough upbringings that included poverty, addiction. And so probably a lot of the stereotypes you would think about fifth generation Texan tough, don't cry. We were allowed a very small continuum of emotions were approved, which were pissed off or okay. Like anger was okay, but no, couldn't be sad really.

脆弱是不存在的。脆弱就是软弱和可怕，会让你陷入危险。我在家和学校都觉得自己像个局外人。但我很擅长读懂人和情境。我想我的治疗师曾说过，没错，那就是过度警觉。

Vulnerability was not a thing. Vulnerability was weakness and scary and put you in jeopardy. I felt like a real outsider at home and in school. But I was really good at reading people, reading situations. I think my think a therapist somewhere along the way said, yes, that's hypervigilance.

你过度警觉了。你知道，我能注意到周围发生的一切。我能迅速将别人看不到的事物联系起来。家里有欢笑也有爱，但有太多不可预测性。

You're hypervigilant. You know, I can see everything around me and everything's going on. I can connect things very quickly that other people don't see. And there was laughter and there was love, but there was a ton of unpredictability.

我正想说，这不正是通常在年轻时就需要保持这种警觉性，从而形成过度警觉的原因吗？

I was gonna say, isn't that typically what creates hypervigilance is some kind of need to be that aware when you're young?

是的。没错。我想确实如此。在我家，爱玩闹和坚强是很受重视的品质。这些就是我们的价值观。

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think yes. Being fun loving was very valued in my family and being tough. These were the values.

这些都在父母的评分表上。这些能让你得A。如果你有趣、随和，能打枪、吐口水吐得远、钓鱼技术好，比如真的开快车。所以这些特质很受重视。运动能力也非常受重视。

These are these are on the parental scorecard. This is what got you an A. If you're fun, easy, you can shoot straight, spit far, fish well, like really, drive fast. And so those things were very valued. Athleticism was very valued.

但这些有趣的事情可能转眼间就变得非常艰难。

But those fun things could turn really hard very quickly.

刚才有个很长的停顿。四秒钟的停顿，当你

There was a big pause there. Four second pause as you

是啊。我能想象那场景。就像，本来很有趣，直到有趣到有家长因为太过严厉被赶出比赛。

Yeah. I could just picture it. Like, it's fun until it's fun until you've got a parent ejected from a game for being so hard.

那是你父亲吗？是的。哦，如果他被赶出比赛，那他当时确实很严厉。

And that was your father? Yeah. Oh, he was really hard then if he was ejected from a game.

哦，是的。对。没错。

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

我看到过一张你和兄弟姐妹的照片，你紧紧抱着他们，我记得你形容说能从你眼中看出某种恐惧。你知道我说的那张照片吗？

There's a photo I saw of you and your siblings where you're clutching your siblings, and I think you referred to it as you could see there was a certain fear in your eyes. Do do you know the photo I'm referring to?

我是坐在沙发上吗？

Am I on a couch?

你坐在沙发上。

You're on a couch.

一张黄色丝绒沙发，像是七十年代的款式？

A yellow velour couch, like, the seventies?

对。是的。

Yes. Yeah.

我想起那张照片。我很喜欢那张照片，但作为家中最年长的孩子，我确实承担着保护者的角色。我的代号是'大姐头'，虽然是开玩笑的称呼，但责任是真实的。当父母之间发生激烈争吵时，我会把所有弟弟妹妹都带到我房间里。

I think about that picture. I like that picture, but there's definitely I definitely had a protector role as the oldest. I mean, code name sister superior. It was jokingly, but it wasn't joking. Like, if things got hard between my parents and they would get in volatile fights, I would go get all my siblings, put them in my room.

然后独自下楼处理局面。明白吗？我确实是那个保护者。

I'd go downstairs and handle it. You know? Like, I was definitely the protector.

是肢体冲突的那种激烈争吵吗？

Physically volatile fights?

偶尔会有肢体冲突，但更多是情绪上的激烈冲突。

On occasion, but more emotionally volatile.

尖叫和大喊。是啊。是啊。我父母也一样。

Screaming and shouting. Yeah. Yeah. Same with my parents.

是啊。就是很吵。

Yeah. Just loud.

我整个童年里，家里的背景音就是尖叫。

There's a background in my whole house for my whole childhood was just screaming.

确实如此。我们经常听到尖叫，而且有种感觉——如果你在尖叫声中长大，隔着墙听到尖叫。嗯。你懂那种声音。嗯。你听到那种声音了吗？

There was a yeah. We had a lot of screaming and there's a certain like, if you grew up with screaming, hearing screaming through a wall Mhmm. You know that sound. Mhmm. Do you hear that sound?

当然。是啊。天啊。那是我整个童年。

Of course. Yeah. My god. It's my whole childhood.

是啊。那是什么声音？

Yeah. What was that?

七个月。是啊。

Seven months Yeah.

是啊，我很抱歉听到你童年的那些事，我也不愿了解自己童年的那些经历，但确实充满了尖叫。所以我变得高度警觉、保护欲强、责任感重，还要加上一句‘千万他妈的小心’。因为我会保护我的兄弟姐妹。

And so yeah. I'm sorry because I don't like to hear that about your childhood and I don't like to know that about my childhood, but there was a lot of screaming. And so I think hypervigilant, protective, responsible with a dose of be very fucking careful. Because I will protect my siblings.

这如何改变了你年轻时对爱的认知模式？肯定有影响，因为我对自己的处境也有同感。我学到的教训是爱就像一座监狱。因为是我妈妈在吼叫，而我爸爸是囚徒，他从不回应。想象一下，一个女人每天对他吼叫六七个小时，而他就像个无生命的物体一样盯着屏幕坐着。

And and how did that change your model of love as a young person? Must have been because, I mean, I obviously feel the same way about about my situation. And I think the lesson I learned was that love was like a prison. Because it was my mom doing the shouting, and my dad was the prisoner, and he wouldn't respond. Say this you've got a woman shouting at him for six, seven hours a day, and him sat there like he's a like an inanimate object looking at the screen.

我记得当时想，哦，好吧。所以如果我长大后谈恋爱，我就会成为女人的囚徒。好吧。听起来可不太吸引人。如果你换个房间，她也会跟过来。

And I remember thinking, oh, okay. So if I get in a relationship when I'm older, then I'm gonna be a prisoner to a woman. Okay. Doesn't sound doesn't sound appealing. And if you move to a different room, should follow him.

所以我像躲避瘟疫一样逃避恋爱关系。这种状态一直持续到我27岁左右。

So I avoided relationships like the fucking plague. I did well until about '27.

然后呢？

And then what?

然后有人翻过了那堵墙，修正了一些证据。

And then someone got over the wall and corrected to some of the evidence.

他们翻过了那堵墙。

They got over the wall.

不知怎么的就翻过了那道墙。

Just got over the wall somehow.

是啊。史蒂夫翻过了那道墙。该死。

Yeah. Steve got over the wall. Damn

靠。那是你的搭档，不是

it. That's your partner, not

我。只是说明一下情况。不。不是的。不是你。

me. Just for context. No. Not yeah. Not you.

虽然你现在做得

Although you're doing a

相当

hell of

出色。你就像，你渡过了我喜欢的那条满是食人鱼的护城河，但吊桥就像，我只是觉得我肯定肯定看到我的史蒂夫翻过了墙。但这就像是高手之间惺惺相惜，他有道墙要翻。

a job right now. You're like, you've crossed the piranha filled moat that I like, but the drawbridge is like, I'm see I'm just see I'm gonna see my Steve my Steve definitely definitely got over the wall. But it was like game game recognizes game, he had a wall.

哦，好吧。

Oh, okay.

是的。于是我们进行了关于彼此心墙的长谈。慢慢地，通过这些对话，我们之间的隔阂逐渐消融，如今我们已经在一起三十八年了。

Yeah. And so we had long conversations about our walls. And and slowly through those conversations, we just those walls crumbled with each other, and we've been together now for thirty eight years.

哇。

Wow.

没错。这是我人生中做过最艰难的事，没有之一。老兄，再没有什么比这更难的了。当我和史蒂夫开始约会时——准确说是结婚后六个月，就像你说的，爱情对你而言像是成为囚徒，必须封闭自我才能生存。

Yeah. The hardest thing I've ever done in my life. Bar none, dude. Nothing has been harder. When I started dating Steve, well, when we got married, six months after we got married, this is, you know, you said for you love was gonna be being a prisoner and having to just shut down to survive.

逃走吧。远远地逃开。不要面对它，不要交谈，不要解释。

Run away. Away. Don't confront it, no conversations, no accounts.

不。对我来说，结婚六个月后，我去见了心理治疗师，我说我做不到，必须结束这段婚姻。而我们在结婚前已经断断续续交往了七年。我当时说，我必须离开。

No. For me, six months after we were married, I went to go see a therapist and I said, I cannot do this. I've got to get out of this marriage. And we had dated off and on for seven years before we got married. And I said, I gotta get out.

她说，我能理解这很难。我能看出这段关系的问题所在。我当时对史蒂夫产生了一丝防御心理，问道：你什么意思？她说：他爱你的程度，远超过你爱自己。

And she said, I could this is hard. I I could see how this is not working. And I was like I had a twinge of defensiveness about Steve. And I said, what do you mean? And she said, he likes you so much more than you like you.

这一定很糟糕。就像在说，去你的，伙计。你被开除了。

It must be terrible. It's like, fuck you, man. You're fired.

我当时就，哦，所以我心想，什么？

I was like, oh, so I I thought, what?

这就是我的作风。所以我要告诉你我的一个习惯。如果我突然用很高的音调说‘什么？’，那意味着我在找我的包，而且我知道门在哪里。我一直在想，你到底什么意思？

That's what I do. So if you I'm gonna give you one of my tells. If I do a really high pitched what? That means that means I'm looking for my purse and I'm know where the door is. I just kept thinking, what what do you mean?

他说，和一个真正了解你、深爱你的人在一起，而你自己却还没学会这样看待和爱自己，这一定非常不舒服。这肯定让人不安。真是个混蛋啊，哇哦。但他说得没错。

He said, it's gotta it's gotta be very com uncomfortable to be with someone who sees you and really knows you and loves you so much when you have not found a way to see you and love you so much. It's gotta be disconcerting. What an asshole, man. Like, wow. And it was true.

我必须达到这样一个境界：也许我应该像他喜欢我那样喜欢自己，然后再更好地判断这段关系是否可行。当你成长过程中，愤怒或封闭是你仅有的两种情绪出口。就像在《心灵地图集》里写的，我列举了87种我认为重要的情绪，因为语言的边界就是世界的边界。当你只有两个情绪容器时，所有感受都只能往里塞。实际上我们过去十五年的研究发现，普通人能准确识别并命名的情绪平均只有三种：开心、难过、愤怒。

I had to get to this point where I was like, I maybe I should like me as much as he likes me and then make a better decision about whether this is gonna work or not. When you grow up and pissed off or shut down are your two emotional opportunities. Like, the you know, in Atlas of the Heart, I write about 87 emotions that I think are important to understand because the limits of our language are the limits of our world. When you have two buckets, then everything must go in those. And in fact, in our research over the last fifteen years, we found the average person can accurately identify and name three emotions: happy, sad, pissed off.

所以在我家，难过是不被允许的，那是软弱的表现。你只能愤怒或者装作没事。所以当我害怕、悲伤、焦虑、失望或痛苦时，表现出来的都只是愤怒。

And so in my family, sad was not an option. That was weakness. So you could be pissed or okay. So when I get scared, when I feel grief, when I'm anxious, when I feel disappointment, when I feel anguish, I'm just angry.

我脑子里有两个突出的问号，它们可能有相同的答案。一个是你说过你在学校和家里都不合群，但我不明白为什么。另一个疑问是治疗师断言你没有他那么喜欢自己，我不清楚是什么让你不喜欢自己。

There's two sort of outstanding question marks in my head, and they might be the same answer. But it's you said earlier on that you didn't fit in at school or at home, and I didn't understand why you didn't fit in at school or at home. And then the other thing that's sort of question mark in my head is the therapist said to you that you well, asserted that you didn't like yourself as much as he liked you and I wasn't clear on what made you not like yourself.

我想逃离我成长的地方。我想抛弃我所熟悉的一切，所以我总觉得自己像个局外人。我不想——我是说我不受欢迎。我没有和橄榄球队的四分卫约会。那是我父母、祖父母乃至曾祖父母梦想的生活。

I wanted out of where I was raised. I wanted to leave everything I knew and so I always felt like an outsider. I didn't didn't want to I mean I wasn't popular. I wasn't dating a quarterback. That was a dream that my my parents and their parents and their parents, you know.

你是你是啦啦队员，和四分卫约会，还拥有农场。所以我感觉自己不够可爱、不够受欢迎、不被理解。而在家里，我也不随和。我焦虑不安，总是紧绷着。

You were you were a Bear Cadet and you dated a quarterback and you got a farm. So I felt not cute, not popular, not understood. And then at home, I wasn't easygoing. I was I was anxious and and always ready.

关于自尊的问题，治疗师特别指出你不像史蒂夫喜欢你那样喜欢自己，这种想法是从何而来的，还是说有某种关联？

And the point about self esteem, which the therapist sort of highlighted about not liking oneself as much as Steve liked you, where did that come from, or is that related in some way?

哦，因为我父母的教育方式充满了大量的羞耻感。

Oh, because my parents parented with a very big, a heaping dose of shame.

哦，明白了。所以无论你达成或没达成某件事，都会因此感到糟糕？

Oh, okay. So if you accomplish something or you don't accomplish something, you're made to feel bad about it?

是的。而且很大程度上关乎外貌和是否有趣。

Yeah. And a ton of it was about appearance, being fun.

外貌？

Appearance?

是啊是啊，你知道的，那种用热卷发棒做的大波浪金发。头发越高，离上帝越近。你得又酷又强，随便戴顶棒球帽就能快速出门，还得保持低维护成本，同时还得是个选美皇后。

Yeah. Yeah. Like, you know, big blonde hair with hot rollers. The higher the hair, the closer to God. You needed to be tough and strong and throw on a baseball cap and get somewhere really quick, low maintenance, and you needed to be a beauty pageant queen.

你还记得他们对你外貌的批评中有哪些让你至今难忘的吗？

Do you remember them ever being critical of your appearance in a way that has stayed with you?

天啊，当然记得。我觉得不只是他们。我是说，要让年轻女孩和女性免受自尊心威胁，这不仅仅是父母的责任。这就像要求她们不要呼吸，因为空气有毒一样。

Oh my god. Yes. I mean, I think not just them. I mean, like, I think having young girls and young women, keeping them from developing threats to their self esteem is not just a parental thing. It's like it's like asking them not to breathe because the air is poison.

就像来自四面八方的每个信息。你知道那些时尚杂志，看完后你会想，哇，我看起来完全不像这样。我怎么能变成这样？懂吗？

Like, it's like every message from everywhere. You know, the fashion magazines, you'd read them and you think, wow. I don't I don't look like this. How am I gonna look like this? You know?

你会给自己涂满婴儿油，在头发上抹柠檬汁。下巴下面垫锡纸，尽可能多晒太阳致癌——那时候我们不懂这些。我们都穿着紧到需要用钳子拉上拉链的牛仔裤。外表很重要。这可是在德州，宝贝。

And you'd lather yourself up with baby oil and you put lemon juice in your hair. You put tinfoil under your chin, get as much sun cancer as you could because we didn't know. You know, like, you you'd we all wore jeans that you had to put on with pliers with for the zipper because they were so tight. Appearance mattered. This is Texas, baby.

你最终去了大学，虽然不是直线发展，但最终还是进了大学。

You go off to university eventually, and not a straight line, but eventually you get into university.

不是直线发展。嗯。这是你对我说过最贴心的话了。我29岁才大学毕业。

Not a straight line. Mhmm. That's the sweetest thing you've said to me. I graduated from college when I was 29.

哇，你2001年成为研究教授后，就一直担任这个职务并身兼多职。你在1996至2002年间于德克萨斯州休斯顿大学获得社会工作博士学位。过去二十年来，你确实专注于研究和理解人性。显然，你在媒体、播客和写作领域还有更多建树。

Wow. So you become a research professor in 2001, and you've been a research professor and many more things ever since then. You get your PhD in social work at the University of Houston, Texas between '96 and 2002. And really for the last couple of decades, you've focused on research, understanding people. Obviously, there's so many more strings to your bow in terms of, like, media and podcasting and authorship.

但从2001年到现在2025年，已经超过二十年了。我的第一个问题是：在你看来，这二十年间世界发生了怎样的变化？

But over those since 2001, we're in 2025 now, just over two decades. My first question is, how has your perspective on how has the world changed in those last two decades in your view?

工会常说，任何重大进步之前都会出现倒退。我认为当你观察各国政府——我知道你拥有全球听众——当你审视世界各地政治当局的运作方式，看看当前权力如何被运用时，就能洞悉他们的恐惧根源。但具体是什么？我们得暂停一下。

Unions would say before any great progression, there is a regression. And I think that when you look at various admin I know you have a very global audience. When you look administrations, political administrations across the world, and you look at how power is being used right now, it will tell you a lot about what they're afraid of. But what is that face? We're gonna have to pause it.

我正想起最近和挚友们的一次谈话。应该就是上周末的事。对，就是上周末，因为当时我们去英国曼彻斯特参加朋友的生日会。我们讨论到当前主导的政治叙事——可能和你说的有所关联，但这是我的理解方式。

I was thinking about a conversation I had recently with my my best friends. It must have been this weekend. Yeah. It was this weekend because it was my friend's birthday in Manchester, The UK, we flew in. We had a conversation about how the leading political narrative at the moment this might be adjacent to what you were saying, but it's the way I interpreted it.

当前最能助人当选的政治话术似乎是：只要你宣称'那些肤色的人是你生活中痛苦的根源'，其实是那些从边境偷渡过来、乘橡皮艇横渡英吉利海峡的底层人群在毁掉你的生活。这种叙事看起来特别有效...

The leading political narrative at the moment that seems to be getting people elected is if you say those people with that skin color are the reason for the pain and anguish in your life, it's actually the people below you that are coming over the border or crossing the the English Channel on dinghies that are ruining your life. And it seems to be like a really effective narrative to

到A

to A

100%

100%.

在美国和英国同时获取权力。就像目前在英国和美国左右选举的核心叙事那样——那些船上或越过边境的有色人种，似乎成了你生活中痛苦的根源。这种说法似乎很有效，也确实是获取权力的手段。所以当我思考权力和你所恐惧的事物时，这个念头闪过脑海。实际上我逆向思考过——如果我能告诉你该害怕什么，或找到你可能恐惧的东西，那么我就获得了权力。

Earn power both in The US and The UK. Like, the central narrative that is swaying elections, it seems, the moment in The UK and The US is those brown people on that boat or coming over the border are the reason for the pain in your life. And it seems to work, and that seems to be the thing getting power. So that's kind what ran through my head when I had this idea of, like, power and what you're scared of. Actually, something I inverted it to, if I can tell you what to be scared of or find the thing you might be scared of or whatever, then I get power.

但或许反过来也成立。

But maybe it goes the other way too.

老实说，我认为我们再也不会讨论比这更重要的事了。这就是为什么我觉得你的回答如此有趣——如果要在你脸上方加个文字框，那会写着'天啊，这太有意思了'。因为当你运用权力时，特别是'支配型权力'（毕竟权力有多种形式），还有'内在赋能'和'内生权力'。

I don't think we'll ever talk about anything more important than this, to be honest with you. That's why I thought your response was so interesting because you you you may if I was gonna, like, do the text box above your face, it would have said, well, holy shit. That's interesting. Because when you use power, especially power over because there's multiple kinds of power. There's power within to and power within.

运用'内在赋能'和'内生权力'的人，其信念体系完全不同。我们相信权力是无限的，分享时反而能增长。而运用'支配型权力'的人则认为权力像披萨一样有限——分给你一块，我就少一块。所以必须囤积保护，绝不分享。

So people that use power within to and power within work from a belief system that's completely different. We believe that power is infinite and can grow when shared. People who use power over work from a belief system that power is finite like pizza. And if I give you any, I have a deficit. So it's got to be hoarded and protected and not shared.

理解'支配型权力'至关重要，因为当人们使用这种权力时，他们其实暴露了自己的恐惧——那正是他们专注和利用的东西。我完全认同：如果你给人们一个长相不同的仇恨对象来归咎痛苦，百试百灵。如果说'我看到了你的痛苦，能精准指出根源并解决它'，而这个根源又显而易见（且与你自己毫不相似）——你说的这种叙事就形成了完美闭环。

Power over is really important to understand because when people are using power over, they're definitely letting you know what they're afraid of because that's what they're focused on and they're tapping into and I think this is absolutely true. If you give people someone to dislike and blame for their pain and they look different than the people who are voting you will win 100 times out of 100. If you say, I see your pain, I can tell you exactly the source of it and I can fix this for you. And the source of it is going to be easy to see, you're not going to see yourself in them. So that narrative that you are talking about, it is a full circle.

掌权者运用权力来解决他们恐惧的问题。他们通过利用恐惧、给人们树立敌人来获取权力。这就是运作机制。我95%的时间都在各类组织中与高管层共事，

People in power use power to address issues that they're afraid of. They gain power by leveraging fear and giving people an enemy. That's how this works. It works like this. I mean, I spend 95% of my time in organizations working with c suite leaders and senior leaders.

这就是组织中的权力逻辑，政治领域的权力逻辑，宗教群体的权力逻辑——普遍的权力法则。'支配型权力'是种非常特殊的权力，其危险性在于：为了维持它，你必须定期对弱势群体施加残酷行为，必须不断提醒人们你的能耐。

This this is how it works in organizations, how it works in political you know, how it works in faith communities. This is how power works in general. So power over is a very specific kind of power, and it's especially dangerous because in order to maintain it, you have to engage in periodic bouts of cruelty towards vulnerable populations. You have to remind people what you're capable of.

你在书中提到的领导力有四种权力类型

So there's four types of power you you you speak about in

哇，你笔记里有记录这个吗？

Damn. Do you have that in your notes?

在StrongGround里。是的，你为什么这么惊讶？

In StrongGround. Yes. Why are you surprised?

我不知道。

I don't know.

你谈到的领导力中有四种权力类型：支配型权力（控制或剥削他人）、共享型权力（寻求共识并建立集体力量）、赋能型权力（赋予他人能动性并认可其潜力），以及内在型权力（尊重差异与自我价值）。

There's there's four types of power in leadership you speak about. There's the power over, which is controlling or exploiting others. Power with finding common ground and building collective strength. Power to, which is giving others agency and recognizing their potential. And power within, which is honoring differences and self worth.

那么作为企业领导者，如果我想成功，你是说我需要避免支配型权力，转而采用这四种权力中的其他类型吗？

So as a leader of a business, if I were to be successful, are you telling me that I need to stay away from power over and adopt another power within this list of four?

是的。我认为长期来看真正有效的是共享型权力、赋能型权力和内在型权力——即协作力、共创力、自我认知、元认知能力，了解自己及思维学习方式。而支配型权力极难持续维系。

Yeah. I think what we've seen be very successful over time is power with, power to, and power within. So collaborative power, co creation power, self awareness, metacognition, knowing yourself, knowing how you think and learn. So power with and power to. Power over is excruciatingly difficult to maintain.

从神经生物学角度来说，人类并非天生就能长期处于恐惧状态。所以如果我为你工作，而你用强权来领导我，用工作威胁我，用后果恐吓我，用降职胁迫我，从神经生物学来看，最终只有两种结果：要么我会变得麻木——你无法持续维持这种恐惧，我也无法长期承受这种持续的压力。

We're not neurobiologically hardwired to stay in fear for very long. So if I work for you and you're using power over to lead me, you're threatening me with my job, you're threatening me with consequences, you're threatening me with demotion, one of two things is gonna happen for me neurobiologically. I am either going to just become numb to it. It's not it's not gonna be able you're not gonna maintain. I can't maintain that constant level of fear.

这实在太耗费精力了，纯粹生理上就难以承受。或者我可能会变得过度适应，就像'这就是我的工作环境，就是这么疯狂，只能接受'。

It's just too demanding, just physically demanding. Or I might get hyper normalized. I might just like, this is this is what I work in. This is like crazy. This is it.

你知道吗？但时不时地，你必须做出些事情来向我展示你能有多混乱和残忍。比如，你需要定期实施残酷行为，提醒我恐惧真实存在，让我重新陷入其中。就像我们现在在美国看到的移民驱逐问题——这位总统在移民政策上并没有比前任更严厉。

You know? But every now and then, you're gonna have to do something that demonstrates to me how chaotic and cruel you can actually be. Like, you're gonna have to engage in periodic acts of cruelty to remind me that the fear is real and to put me back in it. And so one of the things you're seeing right now I mean, like, we in in The US, the deportation immigration issues. This is not a president that has, you know, tightened his belt on immigration more than other previous presidents.

但我们从未见过蒙面人当街抓人，而孩子们抱着他们的腿哭喊'妈妈'的场景。虽然其他总统的驱逐数量可能更多，但从未展现过这种程度的残忍。这种公开的残酷行径，就是为了提醒人们谁掌握权力而谁没有。

But we've never seen masked people grabbing people off the street while children hold on to their legs screaming, mom, mom, mom. We've we've never seen that before. Right? But we've had other presidents probably exceed the deportation numbers that we're seeing, but we've never seen that level of cruelty and display. That is a real display of cruelty as a reminder of who who holds power and who does not.

这让我联想到人际关系中权力控制的问题。很多人谈论自恋型关系或虐待关系时，会提到他们感觉无法离开或最终适应了这种对待方式。

It also makes me think of relationships when you're talking about how people are controlled with power over. A lot of people talk about narcissistic relationships or abusive relationships where they don't feel like they can leave or they don't leave and they end up becoming acclimatized to the treatment.

我是系统理论的忠实信徒，用系统思维思考问题，也接受过系统理论训练。我认为如果不懂系统理论——特别是现在领导组织的人——必将落后，因为组织内外的复杂性需要我们建立框架来理解这些独立系统如何相互碰撞。你每天可能就会与上百个系统产生互动。

I'm a big systems theory thing. I'm a systems theory person. I think in systems theory, I was trained in systems theory. I think if you don't understand systems theory, at least if you're leading an organization right now, you're gonna fall behind because the complexity inside and outside of organizations is such that we need a framework to understand how all of these individual systems are bumping up against each other. Like, you've you probably bump up against a 100 systems a day.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

因此，关于你成功的想象故事，我认为——这也是任何系统理论的真理——系统要繁荣发展，必须保持边界渗透性。这意味着它们需要允许反馈流入流出其他系统以保持警觉。举个很好的例子，我对你们节目中那位关于女性更年期生活的专家感到非常兴奋。

And so what I would imagine the story I would make up about your success, because this is true of any systems theory, is in order for systems to thrive and grow, they have to keep permeable boundaries. Meaning they have to allow feedback to flow in and out from other systems to be aware. So I'm just going to give you a very good example. I'm very excited about the female, the experts you had on Mhmm. Around menopause women's life.

说实话，我对此特别兴奋。克莱尔就是我的医生。

I mean, I'm so excited about that. Like, just to be honest with you, like, Claire is my doctor.

哦，真的吗？

Oh, really?

是的，哈弗医生。有趣的是，这档播客触及的各个系统，以及那些会发出反馈说‘这不适合我’的系统。

Yeah. Yeah. Doctor Haver. So what is interesting is the systems that just that podcast bumps up against, you know, and the systems that would be sending feedback that, hey. This is not for me.

我不会点击这个。我已经把第一期分享给了一百人，因为我们的生活中有令人不适的现实。但这些人是你的伴侣、母亲、上司，这是真实的。我敢保证如果这事发生在男性身上——

I'm not clicking on this. I I've shared that first one with a 100 people, you know, because there's a reality to our lives that is uncomfortable for people. But those are your partners and your moms and your, you know, and your bosses, and it's real. And I can guarantee if this was happening with the dudes

是啊。

Yeah.

就像，那会是天文数字般的金额，超过万亿、千万亿。我不确定具体数字。但想想那个播客和你所触及的系统——健康、女性议题、家庭系统都受到影响。单那个播客就涉及我能想到的20个系统。五六十岁女性的离婚率问题。

Like, it'd be a gabajillion dollar whatever over a trillion gajillion. I don't know. But just thinking about that one podcast and the systems that you're touching, health, women's issues, family systems are affected. Like, that podcast hits 20 systems that I can think of in my head right now. The divorce rates of people of women in their fifties and sixties.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我是说，对吧？是不是这样？

I mean, right? Yes or no?

对，百分之百同意。没错。

Yeah. Hundred percent. Yeah.

没错。一个健康的系统具有可渗透的边界，意味着反馈在不断流入流出。当世界变得复杂时，我们开始抗拒反馈。复杂性太大，于是我们开始封闭那些可渗透的边界。

Right. So a healthy system has permeable boundaries, meaning feedback is flowing in and out all the time. What happens when the world gets complex is we start not wanting the feedback. The complexity is too big. So we start shutting down those permeable boundaries.

那么，边界不再可渗透的系统会怎样？它会萎缩。在萎缩过程中，系统变得自我参照。'我们好吗？我们很棒。'

Well, what happens to a system where the boundaries are no longer permeable? It atrophies. And in the in the process of atrophying, the system becomes self referencing. Are we good? We're great.

'我们正确吗？我们正确。我们达标吗？我们达标。'因为系统的边界不再渴望外界反馈，即使这些反馈很刺耳。

Are we right? We're right. Are we on target? We're on target. Because the boundaries of the system is are no longer craving outside feedback even when it's tough.

当今商业环境中，地缘政治现实、市场变化、人工智能等因素交织，简直疯狂。我们本能地想要屏蔽不确定性和复杂性，这恰恰成为我们工作和生活体系的最大威胁。筑墙自保、拉起吊桥、在护城河里放满食人鱼——这种奢侈我们负担不起。我们必须保持边界渗透性，持续学习、猜测、摒弃旧知、重新学习。

And in businesses today, the geopolitical realities, the market changes, AI, I mean, it's crazy. And so our predisposition to shut down uncertainty and complexity is the biggest threat to the systems in which we work and live. To self protect, close the wall, put up the drawbridge, fill the moat with piranhas, we just don't have that luxury. We've got to keep the the boundaries permeable. We've gotta keep learning, guessing, unlearning, relearning.

另一个新增的复杂性是算法的崛起。实际上，当我想到由AI驱动的算法时，它们会更擅长知道你想看什么，从而让你花更多时间看到更多广告——这意味着给我展示的最佳内容要么是令人恐惧的，要么就是强化我已有认知的。

One of the added complexities is the rise in algorithms. And and, actually, when I think about algorithms that are powered by AI, they're gonna be even better at knowing what you wanna see so that you'd spend time so that you can see more adverts, which means probably the best thing to show me is either something really fearful or just to confirm what I already believe.

百分之百同意。

A 100%.

一个反其道而行的算法对普通人脑来说可能不会带来愉悦体验。它会造成太多认知失调，引发太多不适感。

An algorithm that was doing the opposite probably wouldn't be an enjoyable experience for the average human brain. It would cause too much dissonance, too much discomfort.

但对民主制度大有裨益。

But great for democracy.

没错。棒极了。但对经营企业和销售广告来说糟糕透顶。任何采取这种策略的公司都会破产。

Great. Yeah. Fantastic. But terrible for for running a business and selling ads. So any company that tick takes that approach will go bankrupt.

这就是我认为TikTok如此成功的原因——它的算法设计精妙。虽然我不用TikTok（我有账号但没安装应用），但据我所知它令人难以置信地上瘾。

This is why TikTok, I think, have been so successful is the algorithm is look. I don't use TikTok. It's a I have a TikTok account. I've don't have the app on my phone. But from what I hear is it's so unbelievably addictive.

人们向我描述它时，都会说'天啊'，这东西太让人上瘾了。

People describe it to me, and they're like, my god. It's so addictive.

但这玩意儿简直是恶魔。

But this shit is the devil.

是啊是啊，但人是被利益驱动的，对吧？你的股价会暴跌，你会被炒鱿鱼。

Yeah. Yeah. But it's people are driven by incentives. Right? And your your your your share price is gonna tumble and you're gonna be fired.

如果你不这么做，你就会失去地位和权力。我只是在扮演魔鬼代言人，显然我...

And you're gonna lose your your status and your power if you don't do that. I'm playing devil's advocate. Obviously, I'm

不，不是...你觉得解决方案是什么？运营这些科技平台的兄弟们该负什么责任？

not No. I What do you think the solution is? And what responsibility do the bros who run these tech platforms have?

这很复杂。嗯，我同意。我不是在寻找...

It's complicated. Well, I agree. I'm not looking for

一个简单的答案。说吧，我洗耳恭听。

an easy answer. Go ahead. Hit me.

嗯，我觉得这很复杂，因为一个客观第三方会这样看——他们只关注这些群体的动机——如果美国不做，中国就会做。现在AI领域也是如此。我从没听说过...你懂我意思吗？我就觉得...是的，我和所有这些专家交流过，但始终绕不开这堵墙：如果我们禁止美国追求超级智能战略，那么俄罗斯和中国就会先实现，最终美国将不幸沦为中国的法国斗牛犬。

Well, and I just think it's complicated because what what an objective party would say, who's just looking at the incentives of these groups of people, is if they don't do it then China will. So even with AI now Well, I've never heard of You know what I mean? I'm like Yeah. I've sat with all these experts, and I keep hanging up against this wall, which is, okay. If we just banned people in The United States from pursuing this superintelligence strategy, then Russia and China get there first, then The United States, unfortunately, are gonna end up being China's French bulldog.

实际上，我无法反驳这个观点。我只能承认：你说得对。因为我们最终将不得不从中国租赁这项技术。它如此强大且能带来巨大经济优势，我们别无选择。

And, actually, I can't refute that. I go, no. You're right. Because we you'd have to literally lease the technology off them. It will be so powerful and give such an economic advantage that you have to lease it off China.

所以好吧，看来萨姆·奥特曼确实需要加快步伐，否则...这确实很复杂。

So, okay, I guess Sam Altman does need to crack on or else so it's complicated.

这就是我每次最终得出的结论。

I mean, this is where I end up every time.

看看TikTok的例子就知道了。中国开发了一个令人难以置信的成瘾性算法。美国因为担心数据被用来对付自己，最终只能选择收购。这就是典型案例，中国根本不在乎...

I mean, look what happened with TikTok. China made an algorithm. It was unbelievably addictive. The United States have just had to buy it off them because they were scared that the data was gonna be used against The United States. A prime example, like, China, like, fuck it.

我们不在乎。

We don't care.

是啊，没错。

Yeah. Right.

是啊。他们还开发了一个难以置信的算法叫TikTok，简直让人着迷，你知道，年轻人都像失了魂似的。所以我不知道，真的不知道。这很难。

Yeah. And they made an unbelievable algorithm called TikTok, which just captivate, you know, the youth are all just, like, losing their brains. So I don't know. I don't know. It's tough.

情况很糟。精神危机。

It's rough. Spiritual crisis.

没错。我是说，你刚刚已经说得很清楚了。我们情绪失调，彼此缺乏信任。

Yeah. I mean, you just laid it out. You just laid it out. We're emotionally dysregulated. We're distrustful of each other.

我们对自己也不太信任，而且彼此疏离。但我不能放弃人们，我不是那种人。我相信我们本性善良多于贪婪。你知道，我曾在一次活动上与特雷弗·诺亚交谈，提到了一个让我很兴奋的概念，他却对此提出了质疑。

We don't trust ourselves very much and we're disconnected. I can't give up on people though. I'm not built that way. Like, I just believe that we are more good than greedy. You know, I I was in conversation with Trevor Noah at an event and I mentioned this term that I I was really excited about and he challenged me on it.

我说，我认为我们需要的是'认知主权'。我们需要从算法手中夺回控制权，决定自己消费什么、阅读什么、如何思考，进行批判性思考。我们需要把注意力和专注力视为被追逐的商品，因为确实有人在追逐它们，对吧？嗯。

And I said, I think what we need is cognitive sovereignty. We need to wrestle control away from the algorithms and decide what we consume, what we read, how we think, think critically. We need to think about our attention and our focus as commodities that people are after because they're after them. Right? Mhmm.

不过他有个有趣的观点。他总是有独到见解，你不觉得吗？

He had an interesting point though. He always has interesting points, don't you think?

和特雷弗聊天太难了，因为他总是能提出有趣的观点。

It's so tough to to talk to Trevor because he's so he's always got an interesting point.

他总是有独到见解。该死。他很有趣，但他说，不。我们需要减少认知主权，布琳。我就问，你这话什么意思？

He's always got an interesting point. Damn it. And he's funny, but he said, no. We need less cognitive sovereignty, Brene. And I'm like, what do you mean?

他说，一切都围绕'为你推荐'页面。一切都是为你准备的。我们需要集体主权。他说，你知道问题就在于你的'为你推荐'页面完全独立自主。我在转述他的话——从智力和精神层面来说。

He goes, everything's about the for you page. Everything's for you. We need communal sovereignty. He's like, you know, the whole problem is that your for you page is completely sovereign. You intellectually and spiritually I'm paraphrasing what he said.

我确信他本人更有趣更帅气。他...然后我开始思考，可能这个词不太准确，但让我告诉你最让我害怕的事。由于工作性质，我经常出入一些奇怪的场合。那些运营平台的人，那些企业的CEO和创始人都在场，我听到他们的谈话。那些严重错位的言论让我恐慌。

I'm sure it was like funnier and better looking. He he and then I was trying to think about, like, I guess maybe that's not the right term, but let me let me tell you what scares me the most. I'm in I'm in some weird rooms because of the nature of my job. I'm in rooms where the people who run these platforms and and, you know, that own the CEOs of these business and the founders are in these rooms, and I hear them talking. And I hear things that are so misaligned that it panics me.

我听到有人说：'嘿，科技亿万富翁，我孩子该学什么？我很担心他们。'回答是'学编程和物理'。五分钟后，就像没发生过这段对话，有人问：'你认为成功的关键是什么？'同一个人会说：'是因为我深入研究哲学和斯多葛学派。'

So I hear someone say, hey, you know, tech billionaire, what what should my kids study? I'm worried for my kids. Well, they should study coding, physics, you know, and then five minutes later, as if that answer didn't happen, someone will say, to what do you attribute your success? I mean, deeply when you think about it. And the same person will say, my deep reading of philosophy and the stoics.

我就在想：老兄，到底是哪个？由此我开始推想，是否正在形成一个思考阶层，他们觉得'我们会研读哲学、人文和历史，而你们其他人只管刷屏就好。别操心那些大词，我们会处理所有深奥的东西。'

And so then I'm thinking to myself, well, which is it, dude? And then I start to extrapolate from there and wonder if there is a thinking class that's emerging where they're like we're going to read philosophy and we're going to read the liberal arts and we're gonna study history. And the rest of you, just keep scrolling. Don't worry about the big words. We'll we'll handle all the big words for you.

就像有人问史蒂夫·乔布斯：'你孩子肯定超爱iPad吧？'乔布斯说：'我孩子没有iPad。'他的传记作者证实：'他没开玩笑，家里根本不用这些科技产品。'

Like, it's like when they asked Steve Jobs. Boy, your kids must love the iPad. Steve Jobs said, my kids don't have an iPad. And then his biographer who spent time with his family said, he wasn't kidding. There's no technology.

晚餐时他们谈论艺术和历史。我写过最难的章节是关于'扎实自信与坚实基础'的——我们需要哪些技能和思维模式来为未来做好准备，成为引领者？难点在于其复杂性，可能需要30种不同思维和技能的组合。写完时团队有人立刻说：'天啊，如果能培训人们掌握这些，那真的...这太重要了。'

At dinner, they're talking about art and history. The hardest chapter I've ever written in my life of any book was the chapter on grounded confidence and strong ground. What is the set of skill sets and mindsets that I think we're going to need to future ready and future proof ourselves to be leaders moving forward? And I think what was hard about it was the complexity of it was probably a combination of 30 different mindsets and skill sets. And when I was done, you know, for commercial reasons, someone on my team immediately said, jeez, this is like a if you can train people in these things, this is really this is, like, really important.

我首先想到的是——去他的，我的孩子们。训练训练算个屁。对，我明白这很重要。

And the first thing that I thought was fuck that, my kids. Train train Schmain. Yeah. I get it. It's important.

我们会开发一些工具来测量它，并培训人们掌握。我认为这是可以训练、可以教授、可以量化的。

Like, we'll we'll we'll develop some instrumentation and measure it. We'll train folks in it. I think it's trainable. It's teachable. It's measurable.

但说真的，我是为我的孩子们想要这些。我希望他们懂得系统思考，具备预见性思维、情境意识和时间感知。我希望他们掌握这套复杂的技能体系。难道我只想让他们将来从事整天操心股东价值的工作吗？

But, really, I want this for my kids. I want my kids to know systems thinking. I want my kids to know anticipatory thinking, situational awareness, temporal awareness. I want my kids to have this complex set of skills. Do I want them to have jobs one day where all they're worried about is shareholder value?

老实说，不。我要他们主宰自己的思想、智力、注意力和专注力。我要他们阅读，理解历史，培养模式识别能力——因为这些才是未来的核心竞争力。

Really, no. I want them to own their mind, own their intellect, own their attention, and own their focus. I want them to read. I want them to understand history. I want them to develop pattern recognition skills because these are the skills of the future.

我希望他们能在思维本能叫嚣着'选一边''快调和''我受不了了''快做选择'时，依然能保持对微妙矛盾张力的把握。

I want them to be able to hold the tension of nuance and paradox when everything in their brain is saying, pick one. Pick one. Reconcile. I'm uncomfortable. Pick one.

'快调和''我受不了了'——这其实是神经生物学反应。

Reconcile. I'm uncomfortable. That's neurobiology.

在你二十多年的职业生涯中，从三万英尺的高空视角来看，你接触过什么？你汲取了哪些广泛的参照系才成为今天的你？因为感觉你的知识光谱非常宽广，显然你对历史的关注贯穿了所有回答。

In those in those twenty years of your twenty plus years of your career, what have you been exposed to from a 30,000 foot perspective? Like, what what are the the wide range of reference points that you draw upon to be the person that you are today? And, you know, because you've had it feels like you've got a very wide range of references. Clearly, know, you're you're someone that cares a lot about history. That comes through in your answers.

但我在想，在你的职业生涯中，你有哪些经历？你是直接与患者打交道吗？还是基于学术参考点？

But I'm wondering in your career, like, are what are the experiences that you've had? Have you been working directly with patients? Is it academic reference points you're drawing upon?

是啊。从来没人问过我这个问题，我一直很感激没人问过。真是个麻烦事。因为没人会喜欢这个答案。

Yeah. No one's ever asked me this, which I've been grateful that no one's asked me. So what a pain in the ass. But, because no one's gonna like the answer.

我现在对这个答案很期待。

I'm excited about the answer now.

所有的一切。真的，每一件事。是的。你知道，我热爱历史。没错。

Everything. Like, every single thing. Yes. I, you know, I love history. Yes.

我一直在阅读学术论文。是的。由于工作性质，我每天早上醒来都会阅读《华尔街日报》、《纽约时报》、《彭博社》和《金融时报》。我读得很多。但书中有个章节是我最喜欢写的，关于下班回家时的过渡期有多艰难，以及如果你像我一样，肯定不止一次被伴侣用沮丧的眼神看着说：嘿。

I read academic papers all the time. Yes. I wake up in the morning and I read because of the nature of my work, I read the Wall Street Journal, the New York Times, Bloomberg, the Financial Times. Like, yeah. I mean, I I I read a lot, but there's a chapter in the book that was one of my favorite to write on the transitions home from work and how tough they are and how if you're like me, you've had a very frustrated partner look at you more than once in your life and say, hey.

我知道压力很大。但我不为你工作。转换一下状态吧。你有过这种经历吗？

I know it was stressful. I don't work for you. Change gears. Yeah. Have you ever had that?

不予置评。

No comment.

没意见？好吧。用那本书这一章里的一个隐喻——水闸。我怎么想到这个的？因为我在读《伦敦河流》系列小说。

No comment? Yeah. Use a metaphor in that book, in this chapter, of a lock. And how did that come to me? Because I was reading the book series, The Rivers of London.

在那个系列里，泰晤士河有两位神明。特丁顿水闸位于伦敦郊外的特丁顿镇，是他们交接管辖权的场所。出于好奇我去了那里，遇到了管理水闸的闸长，那天她给我上了三小时的课。

And in that book series, there are two gods of the Thames. And the Teddington Lock is where outside of London in Teddington is where custody changes for them. So I went to the Teddington Lock because I was interested. I met the lock master that runs the lock. She gave me a three hour lesson that day.

我们引导窄船通过泰晤士河。我学会了水闸运作原理，并以此为隐喻来探讨研究：当我们整天像水闸般高度专注、分门别类地高效工作后，为何回家时不直接见伴侣，反而在车库里刷半小时TikTok？因为我们都需要一个'过渡期'。

We let narrowboats through the Thames. I learned how lock works, and that's the metaphor that I use to talk about the research on what do we do when we spend all day locking in, hyper focused, compartmentalizing, getting shit done. And then instead of going home to our partner, when we get home, we spend thirty minutes in the garage on TikTok because we can't bear to go in. So why do we do that? Because we need a lock through period.

我们需要时间进入象征性的闸室，切换状态层次，放下先前事务，让自己适应新节奏。认知心理学称之为'领域转换'。当时我对特丁顿闸长说：这过程太久了，能加快注水速度吗？

We need time to go into a chamber metaphorically, change levels, let go of where we were, lower ourselves to the rhythm of what we're doing now. Cognitively, would call it cognitive and domain shifting. And we need time. So I looked at the lock master at, Teddington and said, this shit is taking a long time. Can we get this chamber filled up a little bit quicker?

她说：'过闸该花多久就多久。操之过急可能翻船。'我们回家后从后门进屋，就像在喊：'我护腿板呢？可能落球场了。妈妈我泳镜在哪？'

And she said, locking through takes what locking through takes. If you rush it, you risk capsizing. We get home and then we walk in the back door and it's like, I can't find my shin guards. I think I left them on the pitch. Where are my goggles, mom?

天啊，许可回执没签字！害得我混进动物园。知道吗？这时你只想逃回职场，那里你掌控一切。

Oh my god. You didn't sign the permission slip. I had to sneak into the zoo. You know? And you're like, take me back to work where I'm the boss of everything.

这些知识从哪来？领域转换理论源自心理学，而特丁顿闸长杰玛教会我：智慧无处不在。我用故事和隐喻将它们串联起来。

You know? So where do I learn those things? Well, cognitive and domain shifting come out of psychology. Gemma, the lockmaster at Teddington, there's wisdom everywhere. I put it together through stories and metaphors.

我是说，书里还有一件事。我站在德克萨斯大学长角牛橄榄球场的边线上，和伊曼纽尔·阿乔站在一起。你知道伊曼纽尔吗？

I mean, another thing in the book. I mean, I'm standing on the sideline at DKR, the University Of Texas Longhorn Football Stadium, and I'm standing with Emmanuel Acho. Do know Emmanuel?

不知道。

No.

是的，他很棒。他曾为长角牛队效力，也在NFL打过球，现在是个作家。

Yeah. He's great. He he played for the Longhorns. He played for the NFL. Now he's a writer.

当时我站在那里和他一起看比赛，我看着他问：你会如何定义口袋意识？口袋意识是个美式橄榄球术语。你懂美式橄榄球吗？好吧，我是四分卫。

So I'm standing there and we're watching the game, and I look at him and I go, how would you define pocket presence? And pocket presence is an American football term. So do you know American football? Okay. So I'm a quarterback.

我会接到球，然后必须选择传球、持球冲锋或递球给队友来推进进攻。当开球后比赛开始，大约有1200到1400磅怒气冲冲的人想把我压倒在地。保护我免受防守球员攻击的人叫进攻锋线，他们通过围绕四分卫形成口袋来实现这一点。

I'm gonna get the ball and I have to throw the ball or run the ball or hand off the ball to get the ball down the pitch, down the field. Right? And when when the ball is snapped and the ball is put into motion, there's about 12 to 1,400 pounds of really angry people trying to drive me into the ground. The people that are protecting me from those defensive guys are called my offensive line. And the way they do it is they form a pocket around the quarterback.

四分卫利用这段时间决定要传球还是持球冲锋。口袋意识就是指四分卫平均用2.8到3秒阅读场上形势、判断防守球员位置并做出决策的能力。当我问伊曼纽尔·阿乔如何定义口袋意识时，他说——我希望你们从商业角度思考这个问题——就是在无法看清全场的情况下阅读局势，并足够信任团队来做出行动的能力。

And the quarterback uses that time to decide where am I gonna throw the ball, am I gonna run the ball. And pocket presence is the ability of a quarterback to use the, on average, two point eight to three seconds he has to read the field, understand where the defenders are, and make a decision. And so when I asked Emmanuel Acho, how would you define pocket presence? He said, and I want you to think about this in terms of your business. The ability to read the field without seeing all of it and trusting your team well enough to make a move even though you can't see everything.

这种情境下需要哪些技能？首先是时间意识，你必须清楚自己有多少时间处理球并推进进攻。他们说曾效力爱国者队的汤姆·布雷迪...这些听起来熟悉吗？

What are the skill sets you need right there? One, temporal awareness. You gotta know how much time you have to get rid of that ball and get it down the field. They they say Tom Brady who played for the Patriots. Is any of this ringing a bell?

是的，确实需要这样。

Yeah. That needs to.

好的。汤姆·布雷迪，他们说他在口袋里的站位感极佳，甚至能通过钉鞋在场地上的震动感知进攻线锋的位置。所以时间意识、情境意识、正在发生什么、预判意识。想想一个伟大的橄榄球运动员，对吧？

K. Tom Brady, they said his pocket presence was so good, he could tell where his offensive linemen were by the vibrations through his his cleats on the field. So temporal awareness, situational awareness, what's going on, anticipatory awareness. Think about a great football player. Right?

嗯。想想马萨拉。你不是把球踢向射手所在的位置，而是踢向射手即将到达的位置。嗯。

Mhmm. Think about Masala. You don't kick the ball to where the striker is. You kick the ball to where the striker's gonna be. Mhmm.

所以预判意识和情境意识。对吧？模式识别。我以前遇到过这种情况吗？我是否知道，比如说，守门员在球门里的哪个位置？

So anticipatory and situational awareness. Right? Pattern recognition. Have I been in this situation before? Do I know how to you know, where's the goalie in the cage?

他们现在站在哪里？所以我总是从体育中汲取灵感，这也是为什么有这么多体育比喻。对吧？

Where are they standing right now? Like and so I'll take my inspiration from sports all the time, which is why there's so many sports metaphors. Right?

嗯。

Mhmm.

我认为目前没有比英超足球更能贴切比喻工作的体育隐喻了。

I think there's not a better sports a better metaphor to describe work right now than Premier League football.

或许贯穿你工作的核心主题之一就是'联结'这个概念。几年前我和女友尝试了迷幻蘑菇，那是我第一次体验。当时我领悟到的信息就是关于联结。这个词从此在我心中占据了一个温暖的位置。

One of the things perhaps is is throughout your work is this idea of connection. I did a mushroom. I did magic mushrooms with my girlfriend a couple of years ago, first time I've ever done it. And the message that came through for me was it was about connection. And that word has had a fond place in my heart ever since.

这真的非常非常重要。我们生活在一个比以往任何时候都更孤独的社会，正如你描述我们正经历的精神危机时提到的，许多方面都更加疏离。'联结'这个词，它意味着什么？是指个人层面吗？是指拥有朋友和人际关系吗？

It's been really, really important. And we live in a society that's more lonely than ever before, more disconnected in many ways as you described when you're referencing the spiritual crisis that we're living in. This word connection, what does that mean? Does it mean on an individual basis? Does it mean me having friends and relationships?

这就是联结吗？这是我应该追求的那种联结吗？还是说人们需要——你觉得人们需要进一步向上延伸，连接到他们的城市、小镇、世界、社区，连接到更宏大的事物？上帝。在这种语境下联结究竟意味着什么？

Is that connection? Is that the type of connection I should be looking for? Or does it need do I need to, like do you think people need to ladder up further to their city, their town, their world, to the community, to something bigger? God. What what does connection mean in this context?

是的。

Yes.

我认为这个问题的答案是肯定的。我们在神经生物学上天生就需要与他人建立联结。缺乏联结时，痛苦就必然存在。没有联结就永远有痛苦。我是说，就像我们与生俱来的镜像神经元，当我们感受到联结并倾听彼此时，神经生物学上就会同步。

I think the answer to that question is yes. We're neuro neurobiologically hardwired to be in connection with other people. And in the absence of connection, there's always suffering. Always suffering in the absence of connection. So I think, I mean, just how we're built, mirror neurons, you know, our ability to sync up neurobiologically when we feel connected and are hearing each other.

所以对我来说，联结是一种双向关系的能力——既能给予也能接受，让我们感到被看见、被倾听、被信任、被重视。这种人与人之间的微观联结非常重要。我认为归属感和场所感也很关键，虽然不一定是具体地点，而是成为某种比自己更宏大事物一部分的感觉。爱与归属、联结，这些都是最基本的需求。

So to me, connection is the ability to be in a relationship where we can both give and receive, where we feel seen, heard, believed, valued. That is that human connection is really important on a micro level, one on one with other human beings. I think a sense of belonging and a sense of place. And I don't know that that necessarily needs to be a location, but a sense of being a part of something bigger than you I think is also important. So love and belonging, connection, irreducible needs.

我认为灵性——我把灵性定义为通过某种比我们更宏大的存在（可能是爱，可能是上帝，也可能是钓鱼）与他人不可分割地联系在一起。你知道，这对不同的人意义不同。

I I think spirituality I define spirituality as being inextricably connected to other people by something bigger than us. Maybe that's love. Maybe that's God. Maybe that's fishing. Like, I I you know, it's different for other people.

对我来说，信仰是我的核心价值观之一，我是一个非常虔诚的信徒，信仰深厚。我想问人们，是什么超越了差异？政治分歧、意识形态差异、种族、性别、信仰体系、阶级。是什么将你带到人类共通的境地？

For me, I'm faith is one of my values, and I'm a a pretty serious God person. I'm a pretty deep person of faith. I guess I would ask somebody, what is that thing that transcends difference? Political difference, ideological difference, race, gender, you know, belief systems, class. What is it that brings you to a common humanity place?

对我来说，那就是上帝。这是个巨大的挑战。因为我努力遵循一种信念，试图在遇到的每个人脸上看到上帝。即使我想掐住你的喉咙，我也试图这样想——这就是我的方式。某种程度上，我们彼此相连，无论我是否愿意，也无论我是否喜欢你。

Like, for me, it's God. That's a it's a big challenge. Because, like, I I try to work from an ethos where I try to find God in the face of everybody that I meet. Even if I wanna punch you in the throat, I try to like, like, that that's my thing. In some way, I'm connected to you, whether I like it or not and whether I like you or not.

当你谈论归属感时，这很有趣。在你的书《勇敢踏入荒野》中——我想副标题已经概括了这个问题：'寻求真正的归属与敢于独处的勇气'——这看似是个二分法或矛盾。

And when you talk about belonging, it's interesting. In your book, Braving the Wilderness, which I think the question is gonna sum it up by the subtitle here, the quest for true belonging and the courage to stand alone, this appears to be dichotomy or a contradiction.

嗯。

Mhmm.

既要归属，又要独处。嗯。为什么这两者都重要？为什么归属很重要？这意味着什么？

To belong, but also to stand alone. Mhmm. Why are both of these important? Why is it important to belong? What does that mean?

以及为什么独处也同样重要？

And and why is it also important to stand alone?

因为我认为，如果你首先不属于你自己，你就无法真正属于任何事物或任何群体。真正的归属要求我们做真实的自己，而不是改变自己。那是迎合。迎合是对归属感最大的威胁，这让我们都回到了童年时代。对吧？

Because I don't think you can truly belong to anything or any or or any group if you don't belong to yourself first. True belonging requires us to be who we are, not to change who we are. That's fitting in. Fitting in is the greatest threat to belonging, which takes us both back to our childhoods. Right?

嗯。

Mhmm.

是啊。融入。融入。融入。融入。

Yeah. Fit in. Fit in. Fit in. Fit in.

问题在于，这种变色龙般的技能意味着为了融入，你第一个背叛的人就是自己。我们必须能够独立站立，这正是当今世界正在发生的事情。我的意思是，回顾《勇敢踏入荒野》这本书，那可能是我写过唯一具有预言性的书。虽然我不认为自己是先知，但天哪，我确实预见了我们正朝着意识形态掩体大分裂的方向发展——我们会到达这样一个境地：我甚至不认识你，但就因为我们都讨厌同一群人，我就称你为朋友。而那边的你，我其实是爱你的。

The problem is that that chameleon kind of skill set means that in order to fit in, the first person you betray is yourself. We've gotta be able to stand alone, and that's what's happening right now in the world. I mean, if I if I look back at Braving the Wilderness, that was maybe the only prophetic book that I think I've ever written. Like, that like like that, I don't think I'm prophet like, but, man, did I call what was happening in terms of the big sort into ideological bunkers where we are gonna get to a place where I don't even know you, but I'm gonna call you friend because we hate the same people. And you over there, I actually do love you.

你是我的家人。但你看，因为我们信仰不同，你在我的生活中就毫无意义。我们已经走到了意识形态掩体的境地，这非常危险。比如说，假设我们在移民问题上持相同观点。我们会掀翻这张桌子，躲进我们的意识形态掩体后面。

You're a family member of mine. But I'm not you know, because we don't believe in the same things, you have no meaning in my life. Like, it's like we have gotten to the place where ideological bunkers, and those are so dangerous. Because here you and I like, let's say let's say that we have the same belief around immigration. So we're gonna flip this table over, and we're gonna get behind it in our ideological bunker.

然后我们会说，没错，我们是对的，那些家伙简直疯了，去他们的吧。但有一天，我可能会转头问你：我在想一件事，我们该怎么解决那些乘小艇从法国过来的人的问题？因为如果不解决这个问题，我们确实面临就业和住房危机。

And we're gonna be like, yeah. We're right, and these guys are fucking crazy and dunk y'all. You know? And then one day, I'm gonna turn to you and say, you know, one thing I'm wondering about is how are we gonna solve the problem with the folks coming over in the dinghies from France? Because I don't think we're gonna be able to go without solving it because we do have an employment issue and a housing crisis.

这时你说出不同意见，你就出局了。我对你的关心、与你的联结，完全取决于你是否质疑我们当初在这里达成的共识。这其实是虚假的连接。真正的连接是什么？我需要知道你脑子里在想什么，因为你的表情就像在说：我们得玩扑克牌了。

And then you go, you're out. My my care for you, my connection with you, completely dependent on you not questioning anything we agreed to back here. Well, that's counterfeit connection. What's real connection? Like, I gotta know what's going on in your mind because your face is like, we gotta play poker.

我们得把这事提上议程。你在想什么？

We gotta put that on our agenda. What are you thinking?

我刚才在想做播客这件事，我坐在这里和各种各样的人交流。前几天贺锦丽就坐在这儿，嗯。然后我也会请右派人士坐在这里。是的，没错。

I was just thinking about being a podcaster, and I sit here with all types of people. So I had Kamala Harris sat here Mhmm. Three, four days ago, and I'll have someone on the right sat here. Yeah. Yeah.

接着我会邀请米歇尔·奥巴马，然后是乔丹·彼得森，再请个和乔丹·彼得森立场完全相反的人。我就在想这种情况让我觉得自己格格不入，因为这确实很罕见。地球上可能没有哪个播客能同时请到米歇尔·奥巴马和乔丹·彼得森。确实没有。

And then then I'll have we have Michelle Obama, then I'll have Jordan Peterson, then I'll have the opposite of whatever Jordan Peterson is. And I was just thinking about how how that's also kind of made me feel like I don't belong because that is quite rare. There's probably not a podcast on Earth that has had both Michelle Obama and Jordan Peterson. No. Yeah.

之后还邀请了贺锦丽。你看，我既没吓跑米歇尔，也没吓跑乔丹。所以你会受到来自两边的攻击。

And then Kamal Harris after that. Like, I didn't manage to scare Michelle off. I didn't scare Jordan off. And so you get you kinda get attacked from both sides.

听着，如果你没收到极端左派或极端右派的威胁恐吓，如果两边都没找你麻烦，那说明你工作没做到位。

Oh, I mean, look. If you're not if you're not getting threatening shit from the far here, the far left or the far right, if you're not getting both, you're not doing your job.

阿门。确实如此。不过真的很难熬

Amen. Yeah. Period. But it's tough

因为...天啊，这太让人心碎了。

because Oh God, it is heartbreaking.

是啊。

Yeah.

它会让你心碎，也会提醒你为何独处被印在那本书的扉页。嗯。因为它所做的就是筛选出那个正确的词？它会缩小你的归属范围，你真正的归属。

It will break your heart and it will remind you of why standing alone is on the front of that book. Mhmm. Because what it will do is it is winnow the right word? It will narrow your belonging, your true belonging

是啊。

Yeah.

缩减到极少数人。

Down to a very few people.

我是说，我完全理解像我这样的播客主最终会选择站队，因为人多势众才有安全感。

I mean, I completely understand how it happens that a podcaster like me will end up picking a side because there is safety in numbers.

嗯，因为当我们掀翻桌子后，就只剩下意识形态的堡垒了。

Well, because there's an ideological bunker because we flip the table over.

百分百同意。任何时候，当左派攻击你时，我就觉得，呃，右派看起来还不错。当右派攻击你时，你又觉得，哦，左派似乎也挺好。因为站在无人区可不是你想待的地方。

100%. At any point, you know, when the left attacks you, I'm like, meh. The right looks pretty good. When the right attacks you, you go, oh, the left looks pretty good. Because standing in the in no man's land is is not the place you wanna be.

我知道这事我永远成功不了。比如，我清楚自己永远无法成功让人们变得 nuanced（ nuanced 指思维细腻复杂），也无法让他们在节目中出现右派嘉宾时不本能地愤怒，或出现左派嘉宾时不本能地暴怒。我已经预见到，当卡玛拉那期节目发布时，只会有一堆根本没听内容的人。开场三分钟内评论区就会炸开锅，全是'去他妈的'之类。你懂我意思吧？

I know I'm never gonna succeed in this. Like, I know I'm never gonna succeed in converting people converting people to be nuanced and to not get viscerally angry when I have someone in the show who's on the right or viscerally angry when I have someone on the show who's on the left. I'm already aware that when the Kamala episode comes out, it's just gonna be a bunch of people that didn't listen. And within the first three minutes, the comment section is just gonna be, fuck. Let me you know?

是的。我内心有一部分正试图赢得与观众的战争，让他们也能倾听。我知道你可能不同意某个人，但能否请你先倾听？因为这就是我的做法。这不是我在演戏。

Yeah. And I'm like a part of me is trying to win that war with my audience where they too will just listen. And I know that you don't agree with a person, but can you just listen? Because that's what I do. And it's not some act I'm putting on.

并不是说我走出去就开始行动，而是在厨房里我可能是右翼或左翼。真实情况是，我的思维方式是：哦，我看到这个人身上的优点。然后我遇到另一边的人，会说：哦，他们也有几点可取之处。我在这方面同意他们的观点。这就是我的方式。

It's not like I walk out there and I start, but I I'm right wing in my kitchen or left wing in my kitchen. Genuinely, the brain way my brain works is, oh, I see this this good in this individual. And then I meet someone else who's on the other side, and say, oh, there's a couple of points of good. I agree agree with them on this. That's how I am.

这种感觉很奇怪，因为在互联网上，你很少发现自己完全被任何一方说服。

And it feels so weird because when you go on the Internet, you don't find yourself being compelled by either side entirely.

不，不。我觉得这真的很令人困惑。我唯一的底线是：如果你的信仰质疑我的人性，那我可能不会和你对话。

No. No. And I think it's really confusing. And the only limit I have, really, is I am not probably going to have a conversation with you if your beliefs question my humanity.

好的。

Okay.

这就是我的底线。对我来说，判断标准就是你是否残忍或辱骂他人，或者你对我或他人的核心信仰是否非人化。我...我做不到，因为那样我就为了表达政治立场的微妙之处而背叛了自己。是的，因为非人化是个非常复杂且棘手的问题。

That that's gonna be my line. That's to the line for me is going to be if you're cruel or name call y or if your core beliefs about who I am or who other people are are dehumanizing. I I I can't I can't that I can't do because now I've betrayed myself in order to make a political point about nuance. Yeah. Because that because, you know, dehumanization is a really interesting and hard thing.

当你研究非人化的相关文献时——就像我们之前讨论移民群体时提到的——存在一个道德包容圈。我们天生不具备伤害彼此、杀害彼此、侵犯、强奸或殴打的本能。实际上我们并非为此而生。所以要实施这些行为，你必须先把对方排除在你的道德包容圈之外。

When you study when you look at the research of people who study dehumanization and usually we talked about earlier with the with immigrant populations, there is a circle of moral inclusion. We are not built. We are not hardwired to hurt each other, to kill each other, assault, rape, beat. We're not wired for it actually. So in order to do that, you've got a person here inside your moral inclusion.

为了接受这一点，你必须将他们排除在道德包容之外，使他们在你眼中不再被视为值得道德包容的人类。而道德排斥的第一步，就是将人们移出安全区——那个你不会对他们施加暴行的领域。纵观历史，语言始终是驱逐他人的首要工具。所以你会听到这届政府将移民群体称为‘害虫’，就像我们谈论动物或老鼠一样。因此，我对艰难对话的唯一底线是：如果你秉持的意识形态认为女性是狗、移民是非法者——如果你站在这种道德排斥的立场上，那对我而言你就太危险了。除此之外，我大概愿意和任何人对话。

In order to be okay with that, you've got to push them outside of moral inclusion to be morally excluded from somebody you see as human and worthy of moral inclusion. And the first step to moral exclusion, moving people out of a safety zone where you don't do horrible things to them, the first way to move people out is language throughout history as long as people have lived. So you hear people in this administration calling a community of immigrants an infestation, the same way we would talk about animals or rats. And so my only limit to hard conversation is if you're operating from an ideology where women are dogs, immigrants are illegals, you know, if you're operating from that place of moral exclusion, you are too dangerous for me. But other than that, I'd probably be willing to have a conversation with anyone.

但我能理解人们为何选边站。说实话，这种感觉很孤独。

But I can understand why people pick sides. I tell you what, it is lonely.

是啊，这很合理。不过听到你这么说真好，真的很好。

Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. It's nice to hear, though. It's really nice to hear that that that is yeah.

我和杰克——他从节目开播就担任制作人——对此讨论过很多次。我们经常探讨为何理解人们选边站的诱惑。实际上，我收到过记者给予的最高赞誉是——这位记者并不喜欢我——他们在文章里写道：‘我们无法确定他属于哪个政党。’我认为这是极大的赞美，因为这意味着...

We've talked about it quite a lot, me and Jack, who's been producing this show since the very beginning. We've we've talked a lot about how we understand the temptation to pick a side. And actually, of the greatest compliments a journalist has ever given me is they wrote in the article, and this wasn't a journalist that liked me. They just said, we're unable to ascertain which political party he is part of. I thought that was a great compliment because I mean it means that

这才是...这才是新闻职业操守。

That's that's a journal that's a journalistic ethos.

我觉得他们本想给我贴标签，巴不得说我是右翼或别的什么。但他们在写我那篇不太友善的文章里提到：‘我们无法判定他的政治立场。’我认为这是种赞美，因为这符合事实。而且我觉得这让我能更好地工作——当我接触他人时不会带着太多成见。我喜欢尝试以初次见面的心态接触每个人。

I think they would wanna pin me down and say he's fucking they'd love to say I'm right wing or Yeah. Something else. But they said, in a not very nice piece they'd written about me or whatever, they said that we're unable to figure out what side he's part of. And I think that's a compliment because it's it's true, and I I think it allows me to do my job better that I don't have too many preconceptions when I meet people. I try and meet people for the first time, which I enjoy.

我觉得你在这方面很擅长，因为你有着永不满足的好奇心。这既美好又可怕。

I think you're pretty good at that because you are insatiably curious. It's it's lovely and terrible.

为什么糟糕？对回避型人格来说确实如此。我最近才明白这一点。虽然我一生都知道，但最近通过一次对话才真正理解。如果有人对脆弱感到不适，那我简直就是他们的噩梦。

Why terrible? It's terrible for an avoidant. I found this out recently. I've known it my whole life, but I found it out recently because I had a conversation. If someone's I think if someone's uncomfortable with vulnerability, then I'm, like, their fucking worst nightmare.

确实如此。这很有趣，因为我不认为她表现得特别脆弱。

You are. Which is interesting because I don't think she was super vulnerable.

真的吗？也许没有。

Really? Maybe not.

谨慎乐观的脆弱。

Carefully optimistic vulnerable.

是的。很可能就是这样

Yeah. That's probably

就像...你在认知上是个信徒，并试图让其他部分跟上。你有着新闻工作者那种机会均等、永不满足的好奇心特质，对吧？你认为拥有平台的人，在审核或理解嘉宾言论可信度方面——特别是涉及科学这类话题时——应该承担什么责任？

Like like, you're you're cognitively a believer and trying to move the rest of you to it. You've got the journalistic ethos of equal opportunity, insatiable curious guy. Right? What do you think the responsibility is of someone who has a platform to vet or understand the credibility, especially when it comes to science or those kind of things, of what their guest is saying?

我认为我们这些播客从业者确实没有接受过记者那样的专业训练。所以在这方面我们几乎是在追赶，特别是当你成为知名播客后，人们会用不同标准要求你。最近我们做的一件事——其实是一年半前——就是聘请了一位博士专门负责这项工作。节目播出后，他会核查你所有的言论，然后在屏幕上标注那些不符合科学共识的内容。

I think that we the school of podcasters haven't really we don't have the the the training that journalists do. So we're almost catching up in that regard, especially if you become a big podcaster because you're kind of held you're held at a in a different level. So more recently, one of the things we do is we we've hired I mean, recently was a year and a half ago. We hired a PhD who does exactly that, who, after this comes out, will go through everything that you said and then put on the screen things that were not within scientific consensus.

但这本身就是一个决定。

But that in itself is a decision.

是的，是的，这确实是个决定。

Yeah. Yeah. It is a decision.

这也不是一个没有后果的选择。

It's not a choice without consequence either.

没错。有些人不喜欢这样。

No. Some people don't like it.

是什么促使你做出那个选择？

What led you to that choice?

当你的播客触及大量听众时，就不得不面对我之前提到的那些政治性内容。你被迫要真正厘清自己的信念所在，以及什么对你来说是重要的。对我来说重要的一点是，我们发布的内容要能帮助他人——即使它并不讨喜。这让我想起你作品中提到的观点：我们的目标不是表现得友善，而是要心怀善意。

When your podcast reaches lots of people, you're forced this kind of going goes to what I said earlier about the political stuff. You're forced to really get clear on what you believe and, like, what matters to you. And one of the things that matters to me is that the stuff we put into the world, we feel like it's helping people even if it's not nice. And it kinda goes to something that I read in your work, which is, like, our objective isn't to be nice. It's to be kind.

哦，确实。

Oh, yeah.

举个例子，我们关于人工智能的对话，我很清楚这未必会让你感觉良好。但纵观历史，回避不适感...天啊...从未带来好结果。所以，就像如果你觉得有辆巴士正驶来，我可以假装它不存在。但如果我认为可能有巴士驶来，而且专家们也这样警告，我认为我们有必要讨论这辆即将到来的巴士。

And so, for example, my converse the conversations we have about AI, like, I'm well aware that that's not gonna necessarily make you feel great. But I think the avoidance of discomfort in in through history Oh, god. Hasn't led to great places. So, like, if you think there's a bus coming, I can, you know, it's I can pretend there isn't. But if I think that there might be a bus coming and if if experts are telling me there's a bus coming, I think we should have a conversation about the bus coming.

事实上，当我进行这类对话时，总会收到这样的信息：请别再谈论这个话题了，这让我很不舒服。但我非常清楚自己在这里的职责——我认为通过坦诚对话，我们能推动人们更进一步，能创造进步。随着播客影响力扩大，你会因任何嘉宾言论遭受更多攻击...是的...你必须明确什么对你重要，你的职责是什么。

And actually me having that conversation, I get messages all the time, which is like, please stop talking about this subject. It doesn't make me feel good. I'm very anchored to, like, what my my my job is here, and I think it's we can push people further towards we can we can create progress through honest conversations. So when the podcast got bigger and you get more and more, you get attacked more for any any of your guests that you have on Yeah. You have to get clear on what matters to you and what your job is.

因此我认为关键在于：当我们进行这些对话时，我希望它们尽可能准确。对于可能感到困惑的听众——在这个媒体民主化的新时代里，世界确实令人困惑——我们正是为此而努力。

And so one of the things I thought was actually when we have these conversations, I want them to be as accurate as they possibly can be. So for the listener who might be confused, because it's a confusing world in this new world of democratizing media media, So we do that.

我对此深表敬意。只想说，我认为这种选择绝非易事。

I really respect that. I just wanna say I don't think that that choice is the easy choice.

那你觉得什么才是轻松的选择？

What is the easy choice, do you think?

轻松的选择是：放任你说任何话，让听众自行判断真伪...嗯...而我无需为所陈述内容的可信度或事实性负责。你做法有趣之处在于，这似乎是种非常扎实的方式——我本人是科学的坚定信徒，要知道我妻子就是医生。

The easy choice is I'm gonna let you say whatever you want, and I'll let my listeners sort out if it's real or not. Mhmm. And I'll take no responsibility for the credibility or the facts that are being presented. What I think is interesting about what you're doing is it just seems like a very solid approach where I'm a big believer in science. You know, I'm married to a physician.

作为社会科学家...我肯定不会成为本届政府在科学议题上的宠儿。我有件印着'我爱科学'的T恤，还配着DNA图案围巾...所以你看，我对这点非常坦诚。

I'm a social scientist. Like, I'm I'm I'm not gonna be the golden child of this administration when it comes to science for sure. Like, I have a I love science Mhmm. Shirt that I wear with a DNA scarf. So, like, I'm I'm like, I'm very real about that.

我也不认为所有标榜为同行评审的临床试验都无可置疑，我认为挑战这一体系同样重要。科学不能成为一个自我封闭的系统，就像其他任何体系一样。让人们持有不同或新颖的观点，但要向听众或观众说明这是缺乏大量数据支持的观点，或存在争议的观点，这才是尊重人们的认知自主权。我觉得这是一种有趣的做法。我在疫情期间推出的播客节目迅速走红。

I also don't think that everything that we see that is projected as peer reviewed clinical trial, you know, I think challenges to that system are also important. I think science cannot be a self referencing system any more than any other system can be. So to have people that have different opinions or new opinions on, but to let your listeners or your viewers know that this is not an opinion where there's lot of data collected or that this is a controversial opinion, is respecting people's cognitive self determination. I I just think it's a it's it's an interesting way to do it. I just I I think I launched the podcast, it became very big during COVID.

哦，继续说。

Oh, go to.

是的。休斯顿拥有全球最大的医疗中心，我就在医疗中心区居住。最初，那里为因新冠去世的医生和医护人员举行的葬礼从未间断。结果却在播客里听到有人说疫情不存在。

Yeah. And so Houston is home to the biggest medical center in the world, like in the world. And I live in the medical center area. In the beginning, there were just, you know, it just there never stopped being funerals for physicians and people working on COVID. And so to hear on podcasts that it doesn't exist Yeah.

或是推荐用Windex清洁剂之类的荒谬方法。我开始关注这个问题，并在自己的节目中展开讨论。因此我对平台和播客责任这一议题始终保持着兴趣。

Or that you can use, you know, Windex or, you know, like, some bullshit like that. I I just started to and then I got into a little desktop around it in my own situation. And so I'm always interested as we enter this world in platform and podcast responsibility.

这是个危险的滑坡，而且没有完美的解决方案。你既不想走向任何一个极端，对吧？

It is a it's a slippery slope, and it's Very. And there's no there's no perfect outcome. Like, you don't wanna go too far either way. Right? No.

你不想，呃...

You don't wanna, oh,

他妈的不想。

fuck No.

政府介入并告诉你什么是真相或正确。但你也并不想误入阴谋论的领域，偏离科学，因为你知道

The government get involved and tell you what truth is or Right. But you also don't wanna stray into conspiracy land and Right. Away from science because, you know

有些事物是可以被认知的。

There are things that are knowable.

是的，有些事物是可以被认知的。

Yeah. There are things that are knowable.

但是...我不知道。我只是觉得在这个时代这是个有趣的问题，尤其当你拥有一个有影响力的平台时。我认为如果你尽力基于...什么才是驱动你决策的核心问题来做决定？

But Yeah. But I don't know. I I I just think it's an interesting question for this time, and I think it's an interesting question when you have a platform that's powerful. And I think if you're doing the best you can to make decisions based what what is the question that drives your decision making?

对我来说吗？

For me?

不，我是说普遍而言。对所有人。是的，我明白你的立场。

No. Like, just in general. For everybody. Yeah. I got yours.

是的。你想要帮助你的听众，想要做正确的事。这与追求下载量是截然不同的。

Yeah. You want want to you wanna help your listeners and you want to do good. Yeah. That's a different thing than downloads.

你可以两者兼顾。

You can do both.

你可以两者兼顾。是的。但如果你只是筛选

You can do both. Yeah. But if you're only filter

哦，你会选择相信那个该死的全面阴谋论。对吧。

Oh, you'd you'd go for fucking total conspiracy. Right.

对。对。对。对。所以我觉得这是个有趣的问题。

Right. Right. Right. Right. And so I just think it's I just think it's an interesting question.

我没有答案。我只知道这是个重要的问题。

I don't have an answer. I just know that it's an important question.

是的。你知道吗？说实话。我的意思是，我们不是记者。我们这里不是记者，所以并不真正理解那种严谨性。

Yeah. And you know what? I'll be honest. So as I mean, we're not journalists. We're not journalists here, so we don't really understand the rigor.

我非常尊重记者和他们为理解新闻方法所付出的努力。感觉我们正在某种程度上追赶。这个播客在四年半内从零增长到每月7000万听众。哦，不容易。所以我们只是在努力跟上。

I've a lot of respect for journalists and the the effort they've put in to understand the journalistic method and all those things. I feel like we're somewhat catching up. We didn't this podcast went from zero to 70,000,000 people a month in four and a half years or something. Oh, hard. So and we're just, again, holding on.

比如，我和杰克之前没做过播客，所以我之前也没经验。现在我们正在追赶，而塑造我们的方式之一就是通过反馈。你会收到大量反馈——别请这个人，我再也不想和这人说话了。

Like, me and Jack didn't run a podcast before, so I didn't run one before. And so we're now catching up, and part of the part of the way that we're shaped is with feedback. And you get lots of feedback. Don't have this person. I'll never speak to this person again.

你会把这些东西挡开。但如果有些反馈确实与你的使命或价值观相矛盾，那就要倾听，然后你知道，可以开始创新。我们觉得屏幕上弹出提示很聪明，现在大家可能都熟悉这个了。这是个平衡术，我们不想全盘否定嘉宾说的内容。

Do and you kind of bat that stuff off. But if there's any ever anything that actually feedback that actually is in contradiction that does test your own mission or your own values, then you listen and you well, you know, you can start to innovate. And one of the things that we thought was smart was to have the pop ups on screen, which everybody is probably familiar with by now. And it's a balancing act. We don't wanna completely discredit everything No.

但我们也想提供背景信息。如果他们说的太荒谬，我们就直接删掉。如果内容太离谱，我们就不发布那期节目，这么说可能更准确。

That the guest has to say, but we also just wanna give context. And that's kinda context what they're saying. If something's ridiculous, we'll just remove it. Like, if something's apps we oh, we'll not publish the episode. It's probably a better way of saying it.

有几期节目里，嘉宾说了一些简直疯癫的话。不需要博士学位也能明白——你不可能躺着锻炼。有个嘉宾告诉我，只要平躺着什么都不做就能增肌。我们直接没发布那期。

We had a couple of episodes where people said some guest said some things which were just absolutely fucking crazy. You don't need a PhD to know that. You can't exercise by lying on the ground. Like, this one guest had said to me that you can build your muscles just by laying on your back or whatever and and not doing anything. We just didn't publish the episode.

作为博士我可以作证：我试过这个方法。

I can just say as a PhD that I have attempted that.

是啊，根本没用。

Yeah. It doesn't work.

我知道那纯粹是胡扯。

I know it's for jack shit.

想想杰克做的

Think Jack made

重点。我可以在你躺着不动的时候完成你的博士学位。

the point. I can do your PhD on the just laying still.

是啊。

Yeah.

不。我认为我尊重这种方式，

No. I think that I respect the approach,

这是

which is

我决定加入的原因之一，因为我尊重这种方式。

one of the reasons I decided to come on because I respect the approach.

我们并不完美，但我们正在努力。

We're not perfect, but we're trying.

这确实很难做到。关键在于，你正走在一条路上。

It's tough do. The thing, that you're walking a path.

如今的商业世界与十五年前截然不同。那时，建立一个品牌意味着需要巨额预算、仓库、办公空间和大量物资。但现在，你只需一台笔记本电脑、一个想法和合适的工具就能创业，我比任何人都更清楚这一点，因为我正是这样做的。Shopify是我们节目长期赞助商之一，我经常向创业的人推荐这个品牌，因为它是一个集多种工具于一身的平台。创业初期，一切都会显得杂乱无章。

The world of business looks entirely different today than it did fifteen years ago. Back then, building a brand meant having huge budgets, warehouses, office space, and lots and lots of stuff. But now you can start a business with your laptop, an idea, and the right tools, and I would know more so than anybody else because that's exactly what I did. Shopify is one of our long standing sponsors on this show, and they're a brand I often refer people to when they're starting their businesses because it's a tool that contains many more tools within itself. And when you're starting out, everything is everywhere.

既混乱又令人困惑，因此将所有功能集中在同一个地方极其有用。Shopify将店铺设计、支付、库存、物流甚至AI工具整合在一起，你可以直接在网站或社交媒体上销售，基本上客户在哪里，你就能在哪里卖。这真是个绝妙的商业工具。如果你想试试，请访问shopify.com/bartlett，注册即可享受每月1美元的试用期。再次强调：shopify.com/bartlett。

It's messy and it's confusing, so having everything in the same place is incredibly useful. Shopify puts store design, payments, inventory, shipping, and even AI tools all in one place, and you can sell directly from your website or on social media, essentially wherever your customers spend their time. It's truly a brilliant business tool. So if you wanna give it a go, head to shopify.com/bartlett and sign up for your $1 per month trial period. That's shopify.com/bartlett.

关于我和脆弱性这个话题，脆弱性重要吗？因为现在有很多表演性质的脆弱性。对我的健康、幸福和未来而言，做个脆弱的人真的很重要吗？

On that point about me and vulnerability, is vulnerability important? Because there's lot of performative vulnerability taking place in the issue. Is is it an important thing for my health, happiness, my future to be a vulnerable person?

让我们先定义一下。脆弱性是我们面对不确定性、风险和情感暴露时产生的情绪。所以脆弱性是我感受到的东西——那种在不确定、有风险或情感暴露时产生的畏缩、尴尬的情绪。这很有趣，因为我曾很难让人们理解，我们从小就被灌输'脆弱等于软弱'的观念。直到我去布拉格堡特种部队基地，向士兵们提了一个问题才改变这个认知。

Well, let's define it. Vulnerability is the emotion we experience when we have when we are up against uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure. So vulnerability is what I feel. It's the cringe, the awkward, the thing that I the emotion I feel in times of uncertainty, risk, or emotional exposure. So it was really interesting because I had a hard time helping people understand because there's we are so raised to believe that vulnerability is weakness that it took a trip to Fort Bragg working with special forces to ask soldiers a question.

请举出你生命中一个关于勇气的例子。一个你亲眼目睹或亲身经历的勇敢行为。这个例子必须不涉及任何不确定性、风险或情感暴露。结果没人能回答。最后，一位年轻士兵站起来说了三个字：三次出征。

Give me a single example of courage in your life. One example that you've witnessed or you yourself have done. One example of courage that did not require uncertainty, risk, or emotional exposure. No one could answer it. Finally, a young soldier stood up and said three tours.

没有脆弱性就没有勇气。所以脆弱性重要吗？如果我们想活得勇敢，如果我们想以符合价值观的勇敢方式管理自己，就必须学会处理面对不确定、风险或暴露时的感受。有意思的是，在布拉格堡之行后的第二周，我去了西雅图海鹰队——那支NFL橄榄球队。

There is no courage without vulnerability. So is vulnerability important? It is if we wanna be brave with our lives. If we want to be able to manage ourselves in a way that's values aligned and courageous, we have to be able to reconcile how we feel when we're uncertain, at risk, or exposed. I mean and really weirdly, the next week after the trip to Fort Bragg, I was with the Seattle seahawks, the football team, NFL team.

没错。问问那些球员们。给我举一个场上或场下不需要脆弱的勇气例子。他们说那是不可能的。根本不存在这样的勇气。

Yeah. Ask the players. Give me an example of courage on the field or off that did not require vulnerability. They said that it's not possible. There is no courage.

比如，如果你在生活中、工作中做的事情没有风险、没有不确定性、无需暴露自己，那就不算勇敢。如果你知道结局如何，那就不叫勇气。勇气是当你无法预知结果时，仍愿意全力以赴。勇气是第一个说出‘我爱你’。你想知道脆弱是什么吗？

Like, if you're doing things in your life, in your work, and there's no risk, no uncertainty, and no exposure, then they're not brave. If you know how it's going to end, that is not courage. Courage is the willingness to show up and be all in when you cannot predict the outcome. Courage is saying I love you first. You want know what vulnerability is?

第一个说‘我爱你’。你有过先开口说‘我爱你’的经历吗？

I love you first. Have you ever said I love you first?

我不确定。

I'm not sure.

是啊。已经很久了。但这很难，你懂的。

Yeah. It's been a while. But it's hard. It's you know?