大卫·辛克莱：衰老可以逆转吗？8周后，细胞在测试中显得年轻了75%！

这些信息会丢失。

And this information gets lost.

它会被破坏。

It gets corrupted.

但美妙的是，我们相信已经找到了一份年轻时的备份信息，可以重新安装到细胞、组织，乃至整个小鼠的身体中，未来或许也能用于人类。

But the beautiful thing is we believe we found a backup copy of that information from youth that we can reinstall into cells, into tissues, into the entire body of a mouse, and hopefully a human.

我相信，每个老年人都拥有这份备份信息，并且可以被访问到。

That backup copy is in every old person, I believe, and it can be accessed.

所以，现在当我看到一位老人走在街上时，我不再想：哦，这个人只是耗尽了，虚弱了，快要死了。

So when I see an old person walking down the street now, I don't think, oh, that person's just worn out, frail, going to die.

我只是觉得，这个人需要一次重启。

I just think that's someone that needs a reset.

在那个人体内，正藏着一个年轻时的自己，等待着重新显现。

And inside that person is a young person waiting to come out again.

这是一种完全不同的看待衰老的方式。

That's a totally different way to think about old age.

在未来，人们将可以选择是否进行 rejuvenation。

And in the future, people will have a choice to be rejuvenated or not.

我需要的那份备份副本在哪里？

Where is that backup copy that I need?

我们正在研究这个问题。

Well, we're working on that.

如果我告诉了你，我的学生会杀了我。

And, if I told you, my student would kill me.

但我们相信已经大致找到了这些信息的存储位置。

But we believe we've found largely where that information is stored.

这是一种全新的生物学。

It's entirely new biology.

这目前还是个秘密？

And it's currently a secret?

这是个秘密。

It's a secret.

好的。

Okay.

那你带路吧。

So you you you lead the way.

告诉我接下来我们应该聊点什么关于衰老的话题。

Tell me what we should talk about next as it relates to aging.

我们来谈谈信息吧，对吧？

Let's talk about information, right?

我们生活在一个信息时代，生物学正逐渐融入这个信息时代。

We live in the information age and biology is becoming part of that information age.

这始于DNA结构的阐明。

And it started with the elucidation of the structure of DNA.

所以我这里有一个DNA模型。

And so I have a model of DNA here.

对于没有在看的听众来说，这是一个小小的塑料双螺旋结构。

So for listeners who are not watching, this is a little plastic double helix.

我的朋友吉姆·沃森上个月刚去世。

My friend, Jim Watson, died recently, last month.

他和他的同事发现，DNA——我们从父母那里继承的生命信息——在每个细胞中都是一段约六英尺长的化学物质。

He and his colleague discovered that DNA, the information of life that we get from our parents, is a chemical that's about six feet long in every cell.

这个模型显示，DNA像一架梯子，梯子的横档就是DNA的信息。

And this model here shows that DNA is a ladder and the steps on the ladder are the information of the DNA.

好的。

Okay.

是的。

Yeah.

你可以把它分开，使每个横档被撕开一半。

And you can pull this apart so that each step becomes 50% ripped apart.

所以它应该能分开，对吧？

So that should come apart, right?

所以我把梯子的横档撕开了，这被称为DNA上的碱基，它总是与对应的化学物质配对。

So I ripped the rung of the ladder apart and that is called a base on the DNA and it always matches with its corresponding chemical.

所以这种简写我们称之为A，它总是与T配对。

So this shorthand we'd call an A, it always matches with a T.

因此，AT就构成了梯子的一个横档，而在这里，颜色不同，我看到的是一个红色和一个绿色的横档，把它拆开。

So an AT becomes a rung on the ladder and down here, different color here, I'm looking at a red and a green step, rip it apart.

这是一个G和C的字母组合。

This is a G and a C letter.

G和C会相互配对。

Gs and Cs come together.

实际上，如果我把这个梯子分成两半，每个横档变成半条梯子，你现在就能明白DNA是如何复制的，因为A必须与T配对，G必须与C配对。

And actually when, if I rip this ladder into halves and each step becomes half a ladder, now you can see that you can copy DNA because the A has to match with the T, rung, and the G has to match with the C.

这就是基本的DNA结构。

So that's basic DNA.

信息就是这样在细胞之间、从母亲到女儿、从父母到后代传递的。

That's how the information is transferred from cell to cell, from mother to daughter, parents to offspring.

大约有20,000个基因，其中约15,000个是活跃的，但很大一部分基因在神经细胞、肝细胞和皮肤细胞中被激活的组合是不同的。

There are about 20,000 genes, about 15,000 are turned on, but a different set gets turned on in large part, to make a nerve cell compared to a liver cell and a skin cell.

这就是基因表达。

That's gene expression.

控制基因表达的不是基因组——也就是我面前DNA分子上的内容，而是表观基因组。

And what controls that gene expression is what's called not the genome, which is what's in front of me here on the DNA molecule, it's the epigenome.

表观基因组是那些在细胞间、父母与后代间传递，但并不存在于这个分子中的信息。

The epigenome is the information we get transferred from cell to cell, from parent to offspring, that's not in this molecule.

那么，这种表观遗传信息在哪里呢？

So where's this epigenetic information?

它控制着哪些基因被开启或关闭。

Well, it controls which genes are switched on and off.

而调节这一过程的主要机制，是对DNA这些阶梯的修饰。

And a major regulator of that process is the modification of these steps on the DNA.

这些化学物质，特别是我在这里红色部分展示的C，会加上一个叫做甲基的小化学基团。

These chemicals, the C, particularly the C, which I'm showing you here, in this red part of the molecule, the C gets a little chemical added to it called a methyl.

甲基是什么呢？如果你还记得中学化学，它就是一个碳原子连着三个氢原子。

And a methyl is just, if you remember from chemistry, high school, it's a carbon with three hydrogens.

这是一个非常简单的分子。

It's a very simple molecule.

它会附着在DNA分子的这一部分上。

It gets stuck on that piece of the DNA molecule.

这被称为DNA甲基化。

That's called DNA methylation.

这种DNA甲基化的模式将决定这个特定基因是开启（比如用于形成视神经）还是关闭（从而变成肝细胞）。

And that will help determine, that pattern of DNA methylation determines whether this particular gene will be switched on, say to make an optic nerve, or switched off so that it becomes a liver cell.

这种过程发生在我们还在子宫内、还是胚胎的时候。

And that happens as we're in the womb and we become an embryo.

这就是表观基因组。

And that's the epigenome.

这些调控基因开关的化学物质就是表观基因组。

These chemicals that turn genes on and off is the epigenome.

衰老的信息理论认为，细胞中的信息——包括DNA，但对衰老而言更重要的是调控系统，即表观基因组——在年轻时是完好的，但随着年龄增长，我们会失去这种表观遗传信息。

And the information theory of aging states that the information that's in a cell, which includes the DNA, but actually more importantly for aging is the control systems, the epigenome, that is pristine when we're young, but as we get older, we lose that epigenetic information.

细胞区分神经细胞、肝细胞和皮肤细胞的能力开始被抹去。

The ability to tell a cell to be a nerve cell versus a liver cell versus a skin cell, it starts to get erased.

因此，当我们观察一只老老鼠或老年组织时，如果我取的不是你的皮肤，而是我的皮肤，我的皮肤细胞已经不再像以前那样具有皮肤细胞的特征了。

So when we look at a mouse or an old tissue, if I took maybe not your skin, but my skin, my skin cells are no longer as skin like as they once were.

它们开始失去自己的身份。

They've started to lose their identity.

它们实际上开始看起来更像神经细胞，而神经细胞也开始看起来更像皮肤细胞，因为在我年轻细胞中原本正确开启的基因——这些控制机制、DNA分子上的甲基化化学物质——正在被抹去。

They're starting actually to look more like nerve cells and nerve cells starting to look more like skin cells because the genes that were once turned on correctly in my young cells, that control system, these chemicals on the DNA molecule, the methyls, are getting erased.

所以衰老就是细胞的身份危机。

So aging is an identity crisis of the cells.

确实如此。

It absolutely is.

说得很好。

Well put.

细胞忘记了自己该做什么。

The cells forget what their job is.

是的。

Yes.

大部分基因仍然存在。

The genes are still there in large part.

99.999%的基因仍然存在。

99.999 of the genes are still there.

分子本身是完整的。

The molecule's intact.

但调控系统不同了。

But the control systems.

你提到的标签机制。

The label thing you mentioned.

那些标记告诉细胞：这个基因需要开启，那个基因必须始终关闭。

The label to tell the cell that this gene needs to be on, this one should always stay off.

这些标记会随着时间被抹去。

That gets erased over time.

为什么？

Why?

我们部分弄清楚了。

We did partially figure that out.

你们是怎么知道的？

And how'd you know?

更好了。

Even better.

这正是我喜欢你的播客的原因，史蒂文。

Is why I love your podcast, Steven.

你问到了关键问题。

You asked the right questions.

有酶可以移除这些甲基基团并重新加上。

There are enzymes that remove these methyl groups and put them back on.

所以细胞在控制这些过程。

So the cell's controlling these things.

它们本不该改变，但确实变了。

They shouldn't change, but they do.

而让这个系统出问题的一个因素是细胞中的重大灾难。

And one of the things that messes the system up is major catastrophe in a cell.

当细胞陷入恐慌时，它会移除这些结构，试图适应压力。

And when the cell panics, it removes these structures to try and adapt to the stress.

标签。

The label.

在拼命求生的过程中，标签会被移除，但细胞却无法完全恢复到原始状态。

The label comes off in a desperate attempt to survive, but then the cell doesn't fully revert back to the original state.

一些化学物质以及与DNA结合的蛋白质——这对表观基因组也很重要——并没有全部回到原来的位置。

Some of these chemicals and some of the proteins that bind to the DNA, which is also important for this epigenome, they don't all go back to where they started.

我用过一个比喻，这就像一场乒乓球或网球比赛，控制基因的蛋白质会被重新定位到紧急情况发生的地方；而我们认为最危险、也是衰老最主要成因的紧急情况，就是染色体断裂。

I've used the analogy that it's like a ping pong or a tennis match where the proteins that control the genes, they get relocalized to where the emergency is and an emergency, the one that we think is most dangerous and a large cause of aging is a broken chromosome.

如果你的染色体断裂了，如果不修复，你要么会变成癌细胞，要么就会死亡。

If you have a broken chromosome, if you don't fix that, you're either going to become a cancer cell or you're to die.

这并不好。

It's not good.

因此细胞会恐慌。

And so cells panic.

在将蛋白质移开并激活这些应激反应基因的过程中，短期内细胞或许能存活，但它们无法完全恢复原状。

And in that panic of moving proteins away and turning on these stress response genes, that's great in the short term, the cell might survive, but they don't fully reset.

那些蛋白质并没有全部回到它们原本的位置，比如十分钟前压力刚出现、灾难发生时的位置。

Those proteins don't all go back to where they once were, say, ten minutes ago when the stress needed to be, the disaster happened.

如果你反复这样做，而你体内的每个细胞每天至少都有一条染色体断裂，那么你身体每天就会发生两万亿次这样的事件，随着时间推移，滴答、滴答、滴答，我们相信这就是衰老的过程。

And if you do that time and time again, and every one of your cells has at least one broken chromosome every day, that's twenty trillion of these events every day in your body, over time, tick, tick, tick, you get the aging process, we believe.

所以我猜我有两个问题。

So I guess I've got two questions.

我想，如果按提问的顺序来考虑，第一个问题是：是什么增加了我细胞的压力？

I guess the first question, if I was thinking about the sequence of asking these questions, is what is increasing that stress on my cells?

因此，是什么加速了衰老？

Therefore, what is increasing aging?

而且，为什么进化没有直接解决这个问题，从而阻止我衰老呢？

And also, why didn't evolution just come up with a solution for this that stopped me aging then?

进化是非常聪明的。

Evolution's very smart.

它就不能直接修复这个问题吗？

Couldn't it just fix this?

在深入这个问题之前，有一个原因能说明这确实是有效的，因为你问我，我们怎么知道这是真的？

Well, before I get into that, one of the reasons we know that this works, because you asked me, how do we know that's true?

这是因为我们在动物身上制造了这种灾难。

Is that we created this catastrophe in animals.

我们把小鼠的染色体以一种不会导致癌症或突变的方式打碎。

We took mice and we broke their chromosomes in a way that didn't cause cancer or mutations.

如果我们是对的，这些小鼠会发生什么？

If we're right, what should happen to these mice?

它们会迅速变老。

They get old fast.

它们会迅速衰老。

They get old fast.

头发变白。

Gray hair.

结果真的如此。

And they did.

我们称它们为ICE小鼠。

We call them the ICE mice.

ICE代表表观基因组的可诱导变化。

ICE stands for inducible changes to the epigenome.

我们能够诱导这些变化，并在实验室里打赌。

And we were able to induce these changes and we took bets in the lab.

这要追溯到十二年前了。

This was going back now twelve years ago.

我打赌我们会看到衰老现象。

I bet that we would get aging.

明白吗？

Okay?

但我是实验室里唯一认为会这样发生的。

But I was the only one in the lab that thought that would happen.

我们打了很多赌，赌老鼠会死，很多赌老鼠会得癌症，只有少数人说什么都不会发生。

We had a lot of bets that the mice would die, a lot of bets that the mice would get cancer, and a few said nothing would happen.

但我们确实看到了衰老。

But we got aging.

事实上，我当时在澳大利亚，也就是我家乡，我收到一张旧款iPhone发来的照片，照片里是一只老老鼠。

In fact, I was in Australia, where I'm from as you know, and I got a picture on my old style iPhone and it was a picture of an old mouse.

嗯，那是一只看起来病恹恹的老鼠。

Well, it was a sick looking mouse.

短信上写着：问题，我们有一只生病的老鼠。

The text was, problem, we have a sick mouse.

我回信说：这不是生病的老鼠，这是只老老鼠。

And I wrote back, that's not a sick mouse, that's an old mouse.

那是我第一次意识到，我们其实早已有了证据，证明我们的衰老信息理论是正确的。

And that was the first time I realized that we'd had evidence that our theory, the information theory of aging is correct.

所以实际上我们做了这样的事——这或许能满足你和你听众的好奇心：我们用干细胞从头培育出了一只小鼠。

So what we did actually, and this might satisfy your and your listeners' curiosity, we generated a mouse from scratch using stem cells.

我们从实验室培养皿中培养的小鼠干细胞开始，修改了它的基因，使得我们可以给它服用一种名为他莫昔芬的药物，这种药物常用于化疗。

And so we start with a mouse stem cell that we grow in the lab in the dish, and we changed the genetics of that stem cell so that we could feed it a drug, tamoxifen, which is used in chemotherapy.

这种药物激活了一种来自黏菌的基因——你可能在森林里找到这种生物，它会切割小鼠的DNA，但方式不会导致癌症或突变，只是切断DNA，然后细胞再自行修复。

And that drug turned on a gene from a slime mold, something you might find in the forest, that breaks DNA of the mouse, but does it in a way that doesn't cause cancer or mutations, just cuts it and the cells put it back together.

因此，我们可以让一只小鼠连续三周表达这种黏菌切割蛋白，而小鼠当时没有任何异常表现。

So we could take a mouse and for three weeks we turned on this slime mold cutting protein and nothing happened to the mouse at the time.

这就像你做X光检查时感觉不到任何异样。

It's like you don't feel an x-ray.

你坐飞机时也不会有明显感觉，除了可能的时差和脱水。

You don't feel different when you fly except for maybe jet lag and dehydration.

但你不会突然变老。

But you don't get old suddenly.

小鼠也是一样。

Same with the mice.

它们看起来很正常。

They were normal.

它们感觉很好。

They felt fine.

所以一开始人们说：哦，这些小鼠不会有任何变化。

And that's why at first people said, Oh, nothing's going to happen to these mice.

三周后，它们仍然很好。

After three weeks, they were fine.

但我们引发了一连串加速衰老的事件，大约十个月后，它们变得毛发灰白、极度衰老，所有衰老相关疾病的发生速度比未接受治疗的同窝小鼠快了百分之五十。

But we set in motion a cascade of accelerated aging events that about ten months later, they were super gray and super old and had all the diseases of aging fifty percent faster than their twins that we didn't treat.

你们有那些小鼠的照片，可以展示一下。

You've got photos of those we could show.

是的。

Yeah.

是的，我们来展示一下这些照片。

Yeah, let's show those.

所以，如果我要在你身上做这个实验，我可能需要先克隆一个你，但我确实能做到。

So if I was to do the experiment in you, I might have to engineer it, a clone of you, but I could do that.

我并不是说这在伦理上是正确的。

I'm not saying that it's ethically right.

但从理论上讲，我们可以克隆你，植入这种黏菌基因，开启它，你的克隆体就会比你老50%。

But theoretically, we could make a clone of you, put in that slime mold gene, turn it on, and your clone would be 50% older than you are.

你能把这个研究翻译成对人类而言的等效情况吗？

Can you translate this into the equivocal for a human, that particular study that you did?

所以，这就像是你做了什么，然后你自己迅速变老。

So it would be like in me doing what and then me getting old fast.

是的。

Yeah.

事实上，我们随时都在接触各种导致DNA断裂的物质。

Well, we're exposed to things that cause DNA breaks all the time.

这些损伤会自然发生，因为细胞在复制DNA时会出现错误，但你可以通过接受X光、CT扫描、频繁飞行以及宇宙射线撞击DNA来加速这一过程。

They happen naturally as the cells try to copy their DNA, but you can accelerate that by getting an x-ray, a CT scan, flying a lot and cosmic rays banging into your DNA.

我经常飞行。

I fly all the time.

我做过

I've had

做过很多次CT扫描和X光检查。

loads of CT scans and x rays.

是的。

Yeah.

虽然这种影响微乎其微，但我相信这很可能在加速你的衰老过程。

And though it's imperceptible, I believe that that's probably accelerating your aging process.

飞行对我的影响是什么？你再说一遍，你提到飞行和你对小鼠做的实验是等效的？

What's flying doing to my Say again, you talked about flying being equivocal to what you did to the mouse.

什么意思？

In what way?

每次你的染色体断裂时，你都在以一种灾难性的方式重排你的表观基因组，而这种重排无法完全恢复，导致你的细胞更快地丧失其身份。

Well, every time you break your chromosome, you're rearranging your epigenome in a catastrophic way that doesn't fully reset and your cell will lose its identity faster.

我也相信，并且有一些证据表明，即使去摇滚音乐会，让耳膜承受巨大声响，也会对耳朵里的细胞造成巨大压力，这就是你更早耳聋的原因——你的耳毛细胞正在更快地老化。

I also believe, and have some evidence that even going to a rock concert and blasting your eardrums is such a stress on those cells in your ear that the reason that you become deaf earlier is because your ear hair cells are getting older faster.

你不希望破坏DNA。

You don't want to break the DNA.

你不希望给身体里脆弱的细胞带来灾难，因为修复并不彻底，衰老随之而来。

You don't want to cause catastrophe to your fragile cells in your body because the recovery isn't complete and aging ensues.

那么，基于这个理论，我们日常都在做哪些加速衰老的事情呢？

So with this theory in mind, what are the day to day things that we're all doing that are accelerating our age?

因为我觉得真正有趣的是，我看着我的兄弟杰森。

Because I think what's really interesting is I look to my brother, Jason.

他比我大一岁。

He's a year older than me.

他现在有三个孩子，都不到七、八岁。

He has three kids that are, like, under the age of seven or eight now.

而这个圣诞节，因为刚过完圣诞，我看了看他的头发，数了数他有多少根白发，和我相比。

And this Christmas time, because it's just been Christmas, I looked at his hair to see how many gray hairs he had versus me.

我想，好吧，他确实多了不少。

And I thought, okay, he has considerably more.

他只比我大一岁。

He's a year older than me.

我当时在想，这在某种程度上是衰老的一个指标。

And I was thinking, that's like a proxy of aging to some degree.

他日常生活中可能做了些什么呢？

What is it he's potentially done on a day to day basis?

我知道你并不认识他，所以给出这样的回答并不会冒犯你。

I know you don't know him, this is why it's not not an offensive answer to give.

一个基因背景大致相似，但生活方式不同的人，究竟做了什么，加速了皱纹或白发的出现？

What is it that someone who is generally sort of genetically very similar, but is making different lifestyle choices is doing to accelerate that process of wrinkles or gray hairs or?

好消息是，你可以通过改变生活方式，显著影响自己的衰老速度。

Well, here's the good news that you can have a big impact on your rate of aging by changing a lifestyle.

事实证明，你的DNA并非命运的决定因素。

It turns out your DNA is not your destiny.

真正起作用的是表观基因组。

It's the epigenome.

因此，你如何生活，实际上决定了你衰老速度的80%到90%。

So that how you live your life is really 80 to 90% of your rate of aging.

这很好。

That's good.

这一切都掌握在你手中。

It's in your hands.

但这也意味着，有些人把自己的生活搞砸了。

But it also means that some people mess up their lives.

实际上，有一些来自丹麦的双胞胎研究，涉及同卵双胞胎，其中一个去吸烟、发胖、暴晒阳光。

There are actually twin studies from, mostly from Denmark, identical twins, one that goes and smokes and gets obese and, goes in the sun.

而他们的外貌比同卵双胞胎老得多，这基本上证明了DNA并不是你衰老的原因。

And they are much older looking than their identical twin, essentially proving that the DNA is not the reason you age.

首先，观众里会有一些人，他们正在听或看，头发已经花白了，心里想：该死，我还不老。

First of all, there are going to be people in the audience, who are listening or watching who have gray hair saying, damn it, I'm not old.

这没错。

And that's true.

我的意思是，没人是死于头发花白的，对吧？

I mean, nobody died of gray hair, right?

有时候，从基因上讲，你可能头发很早就白了，但身体并不老。

And sometimes genetically you can get gray old, but not be physically old.

一个常常让人不舒服但属实的事实是，你看起来有多老，非常准确地反映了你器官的实际年龄。

What is true that's often not comfortable is how old you look is a very good representation of how old you are in your organs as well.

所以，做正确的事。

So doing the right thing.

那么，这些事是什么呢？

So what are those things?

我们来列出一些人们应该做的主要事项，它们能产生巨大影响。

Let's tick off some of the major things that people should be doing and they can have a big impact.

只要做好一些主要的事情，他们就能延长十年寿命。

They can lengthen their life by a decade just by doing some of the major things.

我们知道，平均而言，人们可以多活十四年。

So we know that on average people can live fourteen years longer.

这是基于哈佛大学的一项长期研究，该研究追踪了二战退伍军人的寿命。

This is based on a study that came out from Harvard, a long term study of the lifespan of World War II veterans.

如果你不吸烟，无论是香烟还是其他任何类型的烟雾进入肺部，吸烟都会破坏你的DNA。

If you avoid smoking, cigarette smoking, or really any type of smoke in your lungs, smoking breaks your DNA.

它会加速你肺部乃至全身的衰老。

It's going to accelerate aging in your lungs, your whole body.

避免过量饮酒。

Avoid excessive drinking.

我们现在知道，即使每天超过一杯酒精饮料也是有害的。

We now know that even more than one glass a day of alcohol is bad.

正因为如此，我基本上已经戒酒了。

I've given up alcohol for the most part for that reason.

吃得健康。

Eat well.

所以你要吃健康的食物。

So you want to eat healthy food.

我们这里有一些健康食品，接下来会讲到。

We've got some healthy food here we're going to talk about.

确保不要吃得过多，也不要吃超加工食品。

So make sure you don't overeat or eat ultra processed foods.

最重要的一点，除了以上所有之外，最好的做法之一就是锻炼。

And the big one, one of the best things you can do besides all of that is exercise.

好的。

Okay.

锻炼涵盖了很多方面。

And exercise covers a lot of things.

我们也可以深入探讨一下。

So we can drill into that as well.

但第五点很有趣。

But the fifth one is interesting.

这可能让你惊讶，但其实是个好消息。

It may be surprising, but actually good news for you.

找个可靠的伴侣。

Have a reliable partner.

我觉得你要说的是当个播客主播。

I think you're gonna say be a podcaster.

是

Was

要，好吧。

gonna, okay.

哦，不，那可能会加速你的衰老。

Oh, no, that probably accelerates your age.

是的。

Yes.

所以，如果你没有一个可靠的伴侣，那就养一只宠物吧，因为人与动物之间的纽带已被证明可以延缓衰老，并与长寿相关，而孤独的人则不然。

So if you don't have a reliable partner, have a pet because the human bond is something that is shown to slow aging and associates with people who live longer than others that are lonely.

有意思。

Interesting.

我们会深入探讨所有这些方面，特别是对运动、饮食、生活方式和禁食非常感兴趣。

We're going to dig into all of those in great detail, specifically very interested in exercise, diet, lifestyle, fasting.

我知道这是一个你经常谈论的庞大主题，我对此非常非常感兴趣。

I know it's a big subject you speak about, which I'm very, very interested in.

实际上，在为这次对话做研究时，我对待营养的方式发生了转变，因为我发现了一些新的东西。

And actually, as I was doing the research for this conversation, again, my the way that I'm going to approach nutrition has shifted because of some of the things I discovered there.

我想就这个演变过程简单谈一下。

I want to just tick off on this evolution point.

对。

Right.

我们回头再谈这个。

Let's come back to that.

我只是想弄清楚，是的。

Just want to get clear yeah.

为什么进化没有为我解决这个问题？

Like, why didn't evolution fix it for me?

因为他们谈论的是适者生存，而我之所以存在，是因为我的祖先善于生存。

Because they talk about survival of the fittest and that the very fact that I'm here is because my my ancestors were good at survival.

但听好了。

But listen.

我的祖先们都活到了30岁、40岁、50岁、60岁、70岁、80岁。

My ancestors all died at, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80 years old.

这并不算很好。

That's not very good.

为什么他们就不能活得更久一些呢？

Why why didn't they just live longer?

这正是原因所在。

Well, that's why.

你自己刚刚已经给出了答案。

You just said the answer yourself.

因为你的祖先活不到40岁或50岁，甚至更短。

Because your ancestors didn't live beyond 40 or 50, even less.

对吧？

Right?

在史前时代，大多数男性死于饥荒、疾病，还有很多死于战争。

Most men, in prehistoric times would die from famine, disease, and actually a lot of them from war.

所以大多数人活不到80岁。

So most people didn't make it to 80.

有些人确实活到了，但非常、非常罕见。

Some people did, but very, very rarely.

因此，自然选择的力量集中在早期生存和快速繁衍上。

So the forces of natural selection were on early survival and fast breeding.

我们这么说吧。

Let's put it this way.

如果在史前时代，有人天生携带一种能让其活到90岁的突变，这其实是无用的，因为你很可能在30或40岁就死了，你的孩子也一样。

If there was someone who was born with a mutation that allowed them to live a lot longer to 90, in a prehistoric world, that's useless because you're probably going to die at 30 or 40 anyway, and so are your children.

所以你真正需要的是找到那些能让你在生命早期就成功繁殖、并确保孩子存活的基因。

So what you want to do is find genes that allow you to become reproductively successful early on in life and make sure your children survive.

因此我们很早就生育孩子，但人类由于各种原因，拥有很长的发育期，包括教育阶段。

And so we have children pretty early, but humans for various reasons have a long developmental period, including education.

所以我们发育得并不快，对吧？

So we don't develop very rapidly, right?

我们不会一醒来就能像许多其他物种和哺乳动物那样行走和奔跑。

We don't wake up and we can walk and run like a lot of other species and mammals.

但我们活不了太久，因为在人类演化所处的环境中——塞伦盖蒂平原被普遍认为是我们演化的地方之一，尤其是东非。

But we don't live a long time because there was, in the environment that we evolved, the Serengeti Plain is pretty much agreed upon as that's one of the places we evolved, certainly Eastern Africa.

那是一个极其艰难且危险的生存环境。

That was extremely difficult and dangerous place to live.

你可能被动物吃掉，而即使没被动物吃掉，也可能被邻近部落杀死。

You could get eaten by an animal and if you didn't get eaten by an animal, you get killed by the neighboring tribe.

这太危险了，对吧？

That's super dangerous, right?

因此，我们进化出的寿命最佳值大约是30岁，再长就没什么优势了。

And then, so we evolved to live really at optimal to about 30, but not much more than that.

所以过了30岁，就像你可能在自己身体上感受到的那样，我们开始受到熵增的影响。

So after 30, as you might be experiencing with your body, we're at the forces of entropy.

身体开始衰退，体内的炎症也开始失控。

So the body starts to decay, the inflammation starts to get lost in the body.

但好消息是，如果移除捕食和死亡的威胁，一个物种的寿命就会自然延长。

But the good news is that if you take away predation and death from a species, it evolves longer lifespans.

从进化角度看，拥有那些能让你更注重强健体魄、延缓衰老、预防DNA和染色体断裂的基因就变得合理了。

Now it makes evolutionary sense to have genes that allow you to put more effort into building a strong body and slowing down the aging process and preventing DNA breaks, chromosomal breaks.

我们知道这是真的，因为如果你把某些物种放到没有天敌的岛上，它们的寿命会发生什么变化？

We know that this is true because if you put species say on an island where there are no predators, what happens to their longevity?

它们会自然变得寿命更长。

They get longer lived naturally.

需要二十到三十代的时间，但只有在没有天敌、无需承受快速繁殖的压力时，更长的寿命才会演化出来。

It takes twenty, thirty generations, but only when there's no predation, when you're not under a lot of stress to, breed quickly do you get longer lifespans evolving.

既然人类已经没有天敌了，我们正在缓慢地演化出更长的寿命，但这过程太慢，来不及惠及你我。

Given that humans don't have predators anymore, we are slowly evolving longer lifespans, but it's very slow and it's not going to happen fast enough for you and me.

那些活得特别特别久的生物，在自然界中天敌是不是很少？

And do the organisms that do live really, really long have a small amount of predators in nature?

是的。

Absolutely.

没错。

Absolutely.

想想它们。

Think about them.

狐尾松。

The bristlecone pine.

那是什么？

What's that?

这是世界上寿命最长的树。

It's the longest lived tree in the world.

它可以活上千年。

It can live many thousands of years.

你嫉妒吗？

Are you jealous?

不嫉妒。

Not jealous.

不。

No.

不。

No.

它们的生活很艰难。

They live a tough life.

这些树中的一些早在金字塔建成时就存在了。

Some of those trees have been around since the pyramids.

哇。

Wow.

它们之所以能活这么久，并进化出如此长的寿命，是因为没有任何生物会吃它们。

The reason they live, can live for so long and evolved to live so long is that things don't eat them.

它们完全有毒。

They're totally poisonous.

你不会想吃一棵刺果松的。

You don't want to eat a bristlecone pine.

鲸鱼也是同样的道理，对吧？

The same for a whale, right?

弓头鲸，这些大型动物中的一些，没有任何天敌。

The bowhead whale, some of these very large animals, no predators.

因此，它们进化出了一种策略：缓慢繁殖，但建立强大的系统来阻止表观遗传变化。

So they've evolved a strategy of breeding slowly but building very powerful systems to stop epigenetic changes.

它们的表观遗传调控系统非常稳定，不会得癌症，也不会在数百年前就出现这种身份危机。

Their epigenetic control systems are stable, they don't get cancer and they don't they don't have this identity crisis until hundreds of years.

我们是知道的。

And we know that.

人们在培养皿中研究鲸鱼的细胞，即使DNA被破坏，这些细胞也不会很快丧失其身份。

People study the cells of whales in the dish and those cells don't lose their identity very quickly, even when you break their DNA.

所以，接下来我们该谈谈疾病了，以及疾病到底是什么。

So I guess the place also to go next is talking about disease generally and what disease is.

这些疾病是衰老的产物吗？

So are these diseases a function of aging?

如果癌症最终还是会夺走我们大多数人的生命，那么逆转衰老还有意义吗？

Does this idea of reversing aging even matter if cancer is going take most of us out anyway at some point?

衰老和疾病之间有联系吗？

Is there a link between aging and disease?

这可能是我今天要说的最重要的观点。

This might be the most important point that I make today.

当你逆转衰老时，与衰老相关的疾病就会消失或被治愈。

When you reverse aging, diseases of aging go away or are cured.

在我的实验室中，包括多种癌症在内。

And in my lab, including many types of cancer as well.

我们今天分别用不同药物治疗的疾病，比如阿尔茨海默病、癌症、心脏病，你提到的这些，本质上很多都是由衰老驱动的。

The diseases that we try to treat individually with different medicines today that we think are unrelated, Alzheimer's, cancer, heart disease, you name them, Fundamentally, what's driving a lot of those diseases is aging.

如果你永远不会变老，即使你有易感基因，会得阿尔茨海默病吗？

If you never got old, would you ever get Alzheimer's even if you had the genes that predispose you?

不会，对吧？

No, Right?

因此，在我的实验室中，当我们给动物引发一种疾病时——我们确实能做到，比如把人类的阿尔茨海默病基因植入小鼠体内。

And so what we see in my lab is when we give an animal a disease and we can do that, we can put in the human genes for Alzheimer's into a mouse.

它就会出现痴呆症状。

It becomes, has dementia.

当我们逆转这只动物大脑的年龄时，我们并不是在治疗疾病，而是在治疗衰老。

When we reverse the age of the brain of that animal, we're not treating the disease, we're treating aging.

疾病消失了。

The disease goes away.

身体在年轻时能够自我修复。

The body can heal itself when it's young.

因此，正是衰老过程揭示了那些可以通过逆转衰老来治愈的疾病。

So it's the aging process that reveals the disease that can be cured by reversing.

为什么衰老过程会揭示疾病？

Why does the aging process reveal a disease?

为什么我们15岁时不会得阿尔茨海默病？

Why don't we get Alzheimer's at 15?

因为细胞非常健康，能够自我修复。

Because the cells are so healthy they can fix themselves.

它们能够自我更新。

They can renew themselves.

当我们年轻时，导致这些问题的疾病过程并不存在。

The disease processes that cause these problems for us don't exist when we're young.

为什么青少年很少会心脏病发作？

Why is it that a teenager rarely has a heart attack?

因为他们的身体会阻止它们。

Because their body prevents them.

为什么年轻人通常不会得癌症？

Why do young people typically not get cancer?

因为免疫系统会发现癌细胞并清除它们。

Because the immune system finds cancer cells and clears them out.

你和我现在体内就有癌细胞。

You and I have cancer cells in our body right now.

为什么我们明年大概不会死？

Why are we probably not gonna die in the next year?

因为我们的免疫系统会发现并杀死它们。

Because our immune system will find them and kill them.

但随着我们变老，我们会失去这种能力，患癌的风险也会增加。

But as we get older, we're gonna lose that ability and we'll have a greater chance of having cancer.

所以你的意思是，如果我们治愈了衰老，也就可能因此治愈了这些大多数疾病？

So are you saying that if we cure aging, we're probably going to, by way of that, cure most of these diseases?

百分之百。

One hundred percent.

我们在这档播客里多次谈论过更年期。

We were talking about menopause quite a lot on this podcast.

关于生育和更年期，女性的卵巢是最早衰老的部位之一。

And fertility menopause women's ovaries as one of the first places that ages.

我听过你解释，你认为进化让女性在更年期后停止生育，因为继续繁殖会消耗抚养现有孩子的能量。

And I've heard you explain that you think that evolution program women to stop having children during menopause because continuing reproduction would drain energy needed to raise existing children.

所以，不孕症理论上是可以预防的吗？

So is infertility something that could theoretically be prevented?

在小鼠身上——也就是我实验室里研究的对象——这种情况是可以预防甚至逆转的。

In mice, which is where we live in my lab, where we work, it can be prevented and it can be reversed.

我以为我们的卵子会用光。

I thought we'd run out of eggs.

这就像目前的主流理论。

That's like the That's the current theory.

我们实验室以及我在澳大利亚合作的实验室所获得的证据，让我开始质疑女性会耗尽卵子这一观点。

The evidence that we have from my lab and a lab that I worked with in Australia caused me to question that idea that women run out of eggs.

我们多次发表并重复了这样的研究：如果对16个月大的雌性小鼠进行治疗，它们的年龄相当于人类65到70岁，早已停止生育。

We have published and repeated many times that if you treat old female mice, 16 of age, which is like a 65, 70 year old human that has long time since given up having offspring.

我们可以用一种化学物质处理卵巢，使卵巢内的卵子恢复活力，甚至可能产生新的卵子。

We can treat the ovaries with a chemical that rejuvenates the eggs that are in the ovary, maybe even produces new ones.

我们还不确定。

We don't know for sure.

但那些已经至少六个月没有生育的16个月大老鼠，现在又开始产下健康的后代了。

But those 16 old mice that stopped having kids probably at least six months ago now start producing healthy offspring again.

它们的卵子看起来年轻、完好无损，与试图从如此年老的小鼠身上提取卵子时所见到的糟糕卵子形成鲜明对比——那时几乎找不到形态正常的卵子。

Their eggs look young, pristine compared to the terrible eggs that if you try to harvest some eggs from a mouse that old, it's hard to find any that look normal.

它们的染色体混乱、断裂。

Their chromosomes are messed up, ripped apart.

这些卵子无法产生健康后代，但我们可以将这些卵子，或者至少是含有这些卵子的卵巢，恢复到年轻状态，生成新的卵子，从而孕育出能正常寿命的健康后代。

They're not going to produce healthy babies, But we can take those eggs, or at least the ovaries with those eggs in them and cause them to be young again and make fresh eggs that can produce healthy offspring that live a normal lifespan.

真正的问题是，这对女性有效吗？

The real question is, will this work in women?

这正是我迫切希望去验证的。

And that's something that I'm keen on testing.

在人体上测试这些事情一定非常困难，对吧？

It must be really hard to test a lot of these things in people, right?

因为你多次提到了小鼠。

Because you've mentioned the word mice quite a lot.

这比你想象的还要困难得多。

It's harder than you can imagine actually.

自从35岁以来，我职业生涯的大部分时间都在致力于开发治疗疾病和衰老的药物。

And I've spent a lot of my career since I was 35 aiming to develop a medicine to treat diseases and aging.

即使科学本身是正确和良好的，也可能出现许多问题。

And it can go wrong in many ways, even if the science is good and right.

这其中涉及资金、商业、法律、政治、商业策略、领导层更替，还有各种人为因素，都可能成为障碍。

There's money, there's business, there's laws, there's politics, there's business strategies, there's change of leaderships, all sorts of human introduced variables that can get in the way.

还有专利，以及竞争和敌意也掺杂其中。

There's patents and then there's competition and spite that also gets into it.

我不得不应对所有这些问题，包括与一些全球最大的制药公司竞争，他们根本不希望我成功。

And I've had to deal with all of those things, including competing against some of the largest pharmaceutical companies in the world who really didn't want me to succeed.

但是的，开发一种药物极其困难，但我想要提醒你，以及所有聆听和观看的人，我们在抗衰老方面已经超越了小鼠阶段。

But yeah, it's extremely difficult to make a drug, but I do want to remind you and everyone listening and watching that we're beyond mice now for age reversal.

我们已经在猴子身上进行了实验，这些猴子在生理上和几乎基因上都与我们相似。

We've done this in monkeys, monkeys that are physically and almost genetically identical to us.

因此，从老鼠到人类是巨大的跨越，但从猴子到人类，我们本质上只是稍微更聪明一点的猴子。

So it's not a big leap from, it is a pretty big leap from mouse to human, but from a monkey to a human, we're essentially slightly smarter monkeys.

我刚刚想到，其他国家和民族可能正在开展他们自己的秘密研究，他们可能不需要面对你必须应对的官僚、政治和伦理限制。

I just had a thought about how other countries and other nations might be conducting their own sort of secret research, and they might not have the same bureaucratic, political, ethical considerations that you have to contend with.

你有没有想过，一些地缘政治对手可能在某个研究实验室里对人类进行秘密试验？

Do you think about this much that some of the sort of geopolitical adversaries might be doing secret testing in some research lab somewhere on humans?

我确实会考虑这个问题，事实上，美国政府也在考虑这个问题。

I think about it, and in fact, the United States government thinks about it too.

美国政府阻止了对我所任职董事会的一家公司进行的大笔投资，理由是这项技术过于危险，不能落入外国公司和政府之手。

A large investment into one of the companies that I sit on the board of was blocked because the US government claimed that the technology was too dangerous to be in the hands of foreign companies and governments.

因此，至少在上一届政府时期，美国政府对这项技术落入错误之手极为谨慎。

So the US government, at least in the previous administration, was extremely cautious about this technology falling into the wrong hands.

哪项技术？

Which technology?

逆转衰老的能力。

The ability to reverse aging.

所以美国政府因为担心这项技术可能落入错误之手而阻止了它？

So the US government blocked that technology because they were scared that it might fall into the wrong hands?

他们阻止了一笔超过一亿美元的外国投资，因为那样会让外国人获得更多关于信息和进展的接触机会。

Well, they blocked the very large investment, over $100,000,000 into the company from a foreigner because they would have more access to the information and the progress.

是中国吗？

Is it China?

我不能再多说了。

I won't say more.

这很敏感。

It's sensitive.

我最多能说的是，各国政府都在密切关注这项技术，不仅仅是美国，而是全世界，因为获胜者将获得巨大的经济利益，并可能对制药业和医疗保健带来根本性的变革。

Most I can say is that governments are watching this technology very closely, not just The US, but around the world, because the winner will make not just a lot of economic benefit, but there will be potential for radical change in the pharmaceutical industry, in healthcare.

社会层面的变革也将是巨大的。

The amount of change socially will be dramatic as well.

但政府也识别出了一些用途，比如所谓的超级士兵潜力。

But there are also uses that the government has identified so called super soldier potential.

但我并不认为这是减缓研究的理由。

Now, I don't agree that that's a reason to slow down the research.

其他人则认为这是值得的。

Others claim that it was worth it.

但我确实相信这项技术非常强大，我们应该开始为它进入社会做好准备。

But I do believe that the technology is very powerful and we should start to get ready for when this comes to society.

因为正如我所说，这不是‘会不会’的问题，而是‘何时’的问题。

Because it's not an if, as I said, it's a when.

实现什么的技术？

The technology to do what?

让人体恢复年轻。

To rejuvenate the human body.

我们为什么要提前准备？

Why do we need to get ready?

因为这将带来巨大的社会变革。

Well, because it'll be massive social change.

如果你能选择自己想成为多大年纪，而人们不再在80岁去世，比如说能活到120岁甚至更久，那就会发生巨大的变化。

If you can choose how old you want to be and people don't die at 80 anymore, let's say they can live to 120 or beyond, There's big changes.

会有社会保障问题。

There's social security issues.

会有就业问题。

There's employment.

不过我要说，当我谈到这个话题时，人们常常想到的灾难性情景——我在《寿命》一书的最后部分也探讨过——实际上，延缓衰老和预防疾病在经济上具有巨大的优势。

Though I will say that the disaster scenario that often comes to mind when I talk about this and which I covered in the last part of my book, Lifespan, it's actually economically hugely advantageous to slow aging and prevent diseases.

美国经济和大多数发达经济体的很大一部分都花在了医疗保健上。

A lot of The US economy and most advanced economies goes to healthcare.

而慢性病患者往往要病上五到十年。

And chronic disease, a lot of people are sick for five to ten years.

人们大部分的储蓄、退休金和政府资金都花在了生命最后两年最昂贵的时期。

That's where most of people's savings and retirement and government money goes in, the most expensive years of your life for the last two years.

如果你能推迟这一阶段，那么采用这些药物的国家将获得巨大的经济收益。

If you can delay that, it's going to have massively positive economic benefits to a nation that adopts these medicines.

我有个问题，昨天我看了一些社交媒体上的视频，有人问了一个人一个问题。

Got a question for you that actually came to mind yesterday when I watched some, I don't know, some video on social media and they asked a question to a guy.

大卫，如果你现在56岁，是个亿万富翁，你会愿意放弃一切，重新回到33岁的年纪吗？

David, if you were a billionaire now at age 56, would you give it all up to be my age again, 33?

我觉得年轻是无价的。

I don't think you can put a price on being young.

换个说法，我在社交媒体上也看到过这样的问题：给你十亿美元，你愿意和沃伦·巴菲特交换身份吗？

Another way of putting it, and I've seen this on social media, for a billion dollars, would you swap with Warren Buffett?

不，绝对不。

No, absolutely not.

对。

Right.

所以世界上没有任何钱能让你愿意变老，对吧？

So there's no money in the world that you want to be old, right?

是的。

Yeah.

不值得。

It's not worth it.

换句话说，青春比十亿美元更有价值。

In other words, youth is more valuable than a billion dollars.

青春可能是你一生中最有价值的东西。

It may be the most valuable thing you could ever have, is your youth.

这是一个非常有趣且发人深省的类比、隐喻或 whatever，因为突然间你意识到我们多么重视它。

It's such an interesting and illuminating analogy or metaphor or whatever, because suddenly you do realize that how much we value it.

我们比任何东西都更珍惜它。

We value it more than anything.

我宁愿当一个33岁的人，也不愿当一个43岁的亿万富翁。

I would rather be 33 years old than be a 43 year old billionaire.

即使这十年，我也觉得值十亿美元。

Even the ten years I value as a billion dollars.

是的。

Yeah.

也许一年可以，但十年不行，对吧？

One year maybe, but not ten years, right?

十年太珍贵了，我完全同意你的看法。

Ten years is super, I totally agree with you.

你越老，它就越珍贵。

And the older you get, the more valuable it becomes.

认识到这项技术可能产生的巨大影响非常重要，不仅在经济上，更在于它对全球人类个体生活的影响。

It's important to realize the massive impact that this technology can have, not just economically, but on individual lives of human beings across the planet.

当这一成为现实时，世界将会变得完全不同——我这么说是因为我相当确信它一定会发生。

The world when this becomes a reality, again, I'm speaking like it's a certainty because I'm pretty convinced it's going to happen.

那个世界将与我们今天所生活的世界截然不同。

That world is going to be so different from the world we live in.

它将像今天与计算机问世前、飞机问世前的世界那样天差地别。

It's going be as different as the pre computer world and the pre aeroplane world as today is.

我正在努力

I'm trying

想象一个我们可以选择自己年龄的世界，也许就像你之前提到的，还能不断重置回那个年龄。

to imagine the world where we could pick our age and maybe even, you talked about earlier, being able to continue to reset to that age.

我想像一下，如果我能永远保持33岁，或者你也能永远保持33岁，世界会是什么样子。

I'm trying to imagine what the world would be like if I could be 33 forever or if you could be 33 forever.

或者甚至再延续一百年之类的。

Or even for another hundred years or something.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

可以一直保持33岁一百年。

Could stay 33 for a hundred years.

你认为这是可能的结果吗？也就是我们可以选择一个年龄，然后在这个年龄上保持一百年？

Do you think that's the plausible outcome, which is we can kind of pick an age and stay there for a hundred years, like, at that particular age?

还是说我的身体会变成150岁？

Or is it just that I'm gonna be 150 in my physical form?

我会满是皱纹、头发花白，但依然继续活着。

I'm gonna be wrinkled and gray, but I'm just gonna continue to live.

是看起来年轻，还是只是活得更久？

Is it looking young, or is it just living longer?

其实是两者都有。

It's actually both.

好消息是，两者都会实现。

The good news is it's both.

我们实验室正在大量研究皮肤和头发、脱发和白发问题。

And we're doing a lot of work in my lab on skin and hair, hair loss, hair graying.

是的，请帮帮我。

Yeah, please help me.

你

You

还不用担心。

don't have to worry just yet.

我们会先帮你哥哥。

We'll help your brother first.

不，不，别这样。

No, no, come on.

是的，我们会的。

Yeah, we will.

让他给我打电话。

Tell him to call me.

因此，我们已经看到可以 rejuvenate 小鼠的皮肤，但同时，我们也能在实验室中从零开始培养人类皮肤。

So we've seen that we can rejuvenate the skin of, again, mice, but still, we also grow human skin in the lab from scratch.

我们可以将这种人类皮肤移植到小鼠身上，让小鼠拥有真正的人类皮肤。

And we can put that human skin on mice, and the mice have human skin.

因此，我们现在可以在这一系统中测试抗衰老效果。

So we can now test age reversal in that system.

我非常乐观地认为，我们不仅能 rejuvenate 身体内部，也能 rejuvenate 外部组织。

I'm very optimistic that we'll be able to rejuvenate the external part of the body as well as the internal.

如果我们能治愈失明，那么逆转皮肤衰老就轻而易举了。

If we can cure blindness, reversing the age of the skin is a piece of cake.

那样的世界会是什么样子？

What does that world look like?

我想理解这种世界可能带来的各种非预期后果——在那里，我们都保持年轻，寿命更长。

I'm trying to understand all of the sort of unintended consequences of such a world where we're all kind of young and we all live longer.

这会不会带来意义和目的方面的问题？

Is there problems of meaning and purpose?

有哪些意想不到的后果？

What are the unintended consequences?

我对此思考了很多。

I've thought a lot about this.

很多人有一种直觉，也许你现在也有这种感觉：如果我不再担心死亡，我就不会那么努力，也不会有那么多意义。

There's this gut feeling that a lot of people have, maybe you're feeling it now, that if I'm not worried about death, I'm not going to strive as hard or I'm not gonna have as much meaning.

我会失去能动性。

I'm not gonna have agency.

我完全反对这种观点。

I totally reject that view.

我相信每一个时刻都是特别的。

I believe that every moment is special.

如果我能活两百年，我不认为我会更享受与你的这次对话。

I don't believe I would be enjoying this conversation with you anymore if I could live two hundred years.

我正享受着此刻，对吧？

I'm loving the moment, right?

因此，我相信我们带着目标起床，即使我能活一千年，我依然会享受每一天。

And so I believe that we get up with purpose and that if I lived for a thousand years, I'd still enjoy every day that I lived.

即使活上一千年，有一天也可能显得太短暂。

And even a thousand years one day may be seen as too short.

你知道，这相当于我年龄的20倍，略少于20倍。

You know, it's 20 times my age, a little bit less than 20.

但在地质学和地球年龄的大背景下，这仍然不算很长。

That's still not very much in the grand scheme of, you know, the age of, geology and the earth.

我们依然像这样存在着。

We're still around like that.

所以我认为，我们依然会热爱生命。

And so I think that we will still love life.

我们大多数人依然会热爱生命，享受每一刻，但我们会拥有更多机会。

Most of us will still love life and enjoy every moment, but we'll get more opportunities.

我们可以尝试多种职业。

We can try multiple careers.

也许我们会离婚，开启一段全新的生活。

Maybe we will get divorced and find, have a whole new life.

因此，将会有很多机会，世界也将变得极其美好。

So there will be opportunities and it will be a magnificent world.

更不用说，人类如果拥有五十八岁或八十岁的知识，却拥有三十岁身体的生产力了。

Not to mention the productivity that humans can provide with the knowledge of a fifty eight or eighty year old, but with the body of a 30 year old.

你认为人们在生育孩子的问题上会做出不同的选择吗？

Do you think people will make different decisions about having children?

我认为，目前许多伴侣在生育决策上已经存在问题，那就是拖得太晚了。

Well, I think we have a problem already with the decisions that a lot of couples are making, which is leaving it too late.

从生育率和出生率来看，很明显我们正面临悬崖边缘。

It's very clear with the fertility rate and the rate of childbirth that basically we're going off a cliff.

我认为，让伴侣尤其是女性能够有更长时间的选择来生育孩子，将变得至关重要。

And I think that it's going to be important to be able to give couples and women especially the choice to have children for longer.

这正是我研究这个课题的原因之一：我认为，在这个世界上，我们需要接受大量培训，还要面对寻找伴侣、建立幸福婚姻或至少建立稳定伴侣关系的压力，而这一切可能需要数十年才能找到对的人。

And that's one of the reasons that I work on this topic is that I think that the world with all of the training that we need to do and the pressures on finding a mate and being happily married or at least being partnered up, that can take decades to get the right person.

你不想像过去的人那样仓促行事。

You don't want to rush into it like people used to.

能够在五六十岁时生育孩子，我认为这对人类将是一份巨大的礼物。

And being able to have children in your fifties and sixties, I think would be a great gift to humanity.

这是我的个人观点。

That's my personal view.

有些人可能会因为各种原因不同意这一点。

Some people may, you know, for whatever reason disagree with that.

但我认为，通常要求人们在35岁前生育的压力是极端且不公平的，而且这将有助于我们维持人类人口，因为到2050年，我们将开始出现严重的人口下降，许多西方国家甚至会更早。

But I think that the pressures to have children before 35 typically are just extreme and unfair, but also that it'll help us maintain the human population because by 2050, we're going to start going in a bad decline and earlier in many Western countries.

如果没有人类，而到处都是机器人，我们将面临人力资本和人类生产力的短缺。

And without humans, absent Android robots everywhere, we're going to have a deficiency of human capital and human productivity.

我认为，这正是我与埃隆观点相左的地方——这是解决人类短缺问题的最佳方案。

And this is, I would argue with Elon that this is the best solution to that lack of humans.

就是让人类保持健康、长寿并持续保持生产力。

It's just keep people healthy and alive and productive for longer.

哇哦。

Woah.

你脸上那是啥？

What's that on your face?

这是我用的Bon Charge面膜。

This is my Bon Charge face mask.

我已经用了一段时间了。

I've been wearing this for some time now.

他们是这个播客的赞助商。

They're a sponsor of the podcast.

他们建议每天敷十五到二十分钟。

They put this on for fifteen, twenty minutes a day.

我可以坐在这把椅子上戴着它。

I can sit here in the chair and wear it.

它能促进我的胶原蛋白生成，改善细纹和瑕疵，让我的肤色更好，于是更多人愿意听这个播客，因为我看起来更精神了。

Boosts my collagen production, helps with fine line blemishes, my complexion gets better, and then people more people listen to the podcast because I I look better.

这么小的盒子居然装着专业级设备。

Professional grade equipment in such a small box.

这是无创的。

It's noninvasive.

在与这么多世界顶尖健康专家交流后，我经常听到一些有效的方法，也有一些我持怀疑态度。

And having sat here with so many of the world's leading health professionals, there's various things that I repeatedly hear work and some things I'm a bit skeptical about.

这个方法是我在节目中几乎所有嘉宾都确认有效的一种。

This is one of the things that almost all of my guests on this show have confirmed works.

它真的、真的、真的非常有效。

It is really, really, really effective.

他们提供全球快速免费配送，支持便捷的退换货，并且所有产品都享有一年保修。

And they offer fast, free shipping worldwide with easy returns and exchanges, and you'll also get a one year warranty on all of their products.

而且他们的产品符合HSA和FSA资格，可享受最高达40%的免税优惠。

And they're HSA and FSA eligible, giving you tax free savings up to 40%.

通过我的链接在bondcharge.com/doac下单，还能享受20%的折扣。

And you can get 20% off when you order through my link at bondcharge.com/doac.

那是 bondcharge.com/doac。

That's bondcharge.com/doac.

此优惠适用于全站。

The deal applies site wide.

新年总有一种奇特的能量，因为人们开始谈论他们的目标、新的开始和新习惯。

New Year always has a strange energy to it because people start talking about their goals, fresh starts, and new habits.

但现实是，大多数人会把去年的想法带入新的一年。

But the reality is that most people carry the same ideas they had last year into the new year.

我也一样有这种毛病。

I'm guilty of that too.

但他们最终还是对这些想法无所作为。

And they still don't end up doing anything with them.

我理解为什么会这样。

And I get why.

开始一件新事物，尤其是做生意或做项目，会让人感到不知所措。

Starting something new, especially if it's a business or a project, is overwhelming.

在开始之前，你总在等待完美的时机，想成为完美的自己，但其实最重要的是迈出第一步。

Before you start, you're looking for the perfect moment and to be the perfect version of yourself when really what matters most is taking that first step.

如果你有一个想法很久了，比如一个产品、一家店铺，一直搁置着，我们的赞助商Shopify让你轻松起步，因为你可以在一个平台上搭建店铺、在社交媒体上销售、处理付款、使用AI工具，并管理所有事务。

If you had an idea for a while, a product, a store, something you've been sitting on, our sponsor Shopify makes it easy to get started because you can build your store, sell on socials, take payments, use AI tools, and manage everything all in one place.

所以，如果2026年是你终于相信自己的年份，就去shopify.co.uk/bartlett开始销售吧。

So if 2026 is the year you finally back yourself, go to shopify.co.uk/bartlett and start selling.

而且你现在就可以注册每月1英镑的试用期。

And you can sign up for a $1 per month trial right now too.

只需前往shopify.co.uk/bartlett。

Just go to shopify.co.uk/bartlett.

我向你保证，你不需要把一切都想清楚。

I promise you, you don't need to have it all figured out.

你只需要开始行动。

You just need to start.

你之前提到癌症是你在实验室里正在研究的课题。

You mentioned cancer earlier on is something that you're working on in your laboratory.