本集简介
双语字幕
仅展示文本字幕，不包含中文音频；想边听边看，请使用 Bayt 播客 App。
你写了一本关于习惯的史上最畅销的书之一。
You've written one of the best selling books in history about habits.
因为人们总是需要更多实用的帮助来养成习惯。
Because people always need more practical help with implementing their habits.
我有不同的策略和工具来让习惯坚持下去，其中有一个原则可能是养成习惯最重要的一个。
And I have different strategies and different tools to have a stick, including one principle that is probably the single most important for building habits.
但很多关键在于掌握开始的艺术。
But so much of it is about mastering the art of getting started.
那我们就开始吧。
Let's get started then.
詹姆斯·克利尔是
James Clear is one of
世界领先的习惯专家之一。
the world's leading habit experts.
他正在教育数百万人养成持久的习惯，掌握目标设定，并最终重新设计他们的生活。
He's educating millions to build lasting habits, master goal setting, and ultimately redesign their lives.
每个习惯都会经历四个不同的阶段。
There are four different stages that every habit goes through.
提示、渴望、反应、奖励。
Cue, craving, response, reward.
所以第一步，我要让它变得显而易见。
So first, I wanna make it obvious.
越容易看到或引起你的注意，你就越有可能去行动。
Easier it is to see or get your attention, the more likely you are to act on it.
第二步是关于渴望的。
The second is about the craving.
关键在于让它变得有吸引力。
It's all about making it attractive.
它越有趣或越令人兴奋，你就越有可能坚持下去。
And the more engaging or exciting it is, the more likely you are to stick with it.
第三步是让它变得简单。
The third is to make it easy.
习惯越容易执行，就越有可能发生。
The easier a habit is to perform, the more likely it is to happen.
然后第四个也是最后一个，就是让它令人满意。
And then the fourth and final one is to make it satisfying.
这关乎提高你下次再做的几率。
And that's about increasing the odds that you do it next time.
而且我们有一些工具可以过一遍。
And there's some tools that we can go through.
但《掌控习惯》中一个重要的收获是，如果你把新习惯叠加在已有的习惯上，就更容易养成。
But one of the big takeaways in Proven Atomic Habits is it's easier to build a new habit if you stack it on top of the habit you're already doing.
比如说，你现在的习惯是泡一杯咖啡，而你想养成的新习惯是开始冥想。
So let's say that your current habit is you make a cup of coffee, and the new habit that you want to build is you wanna start meditating.
那么你可以说，好的。
So then you could say, alright.
早上泡完咖啡后，我会冥想六十秒。
After I make my morning cup of coffee, I will meditate for sixty seconds.
这个方法适用于任何事情。
And you can do it for anything.
还有一个我称之为“帽子、发型和纹身”的框架，这是赢得习惯塑造、每天进步1%的真正秘诀。
There's also a framework that I call hats, haircuts, and tattoos, the secret to winning, habit shaping, and real lesson of getting 1% better every day.
我们可以逐一讨论这些。
And we can talk about all of them.
但是，如果想改掉一个坏习惯，有没有什么框架或策略呢？
But is there any frameworks, any tactics if you're trying to break a habit?
如果你想改掉一个坏习惯，有一些方法可以
If you want to break a bad habit, there's some things that
尝试一下。
you can do.
詹姆斯，这本书影响了数千万人的生活。
James, the book has shaped tens and tens and tens of millions of lives.
回顾过去，有没有什么让你感到遗憾的事情？
Is there anything you look back on that you regret?
如果我能补充一点，我会说这个，因为你真的想一次又一次地取得进步。
If I could add something, I would add this because you really wanna make progress again and again.
如果你想达到顶峰并保持在那里，你需要能够……
If you wanna get to the top and stay at the top, and you need to be able to...
只要给我三十秒的时间。
Just give me thirty seconds of your time.
我有两件事想说。
Two things I wanted to say.
第一件事是非常感谢你每周都收听我们的节目。
The first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning into the show week after week.
这对我们所有人来说意义重大，这真的是我们从未有过的梦想，也从未想象过能走到这一步。
It means the world to all of us and this really is a dream that we absolutely never had and couldn't have imagined getting to this place.
但其次，这是一个我们觉得才刚刚开始的梦想。
But secondly, it's a dream where we feel like we're only just getting started.
如果你喜欢我们在这里做的事情，请加入那24%经常收听这个播客的人，并在这个应用上关注我们。
And if you enjoy what we do here, please join the 24% of people that listen to this podcast regularly and follow us on this app.
我向你保证。
Here's a promise I'm gonna make to you.
我会尽我所能，让这个节目现在和将来都做到最好。
I'm gonna do everything in my power to make this show as good as I can now and into the future.
我们会请到你想要的嘉宾，也会继续做你喜欢的那些内容。
We're gonna deliver the guests that you want me to speak to and we're gonna continue to keep doing all of the things you love about this show.
谢谢。
Thank you.
詹姆斯，你写了成千上万的东西，但你写的《原子习惯》这本书，是历史上最畅销的书之一。
James, you've written thousands and thousands of things, but one particular thing you wrote called Atomic Habits is one of the best selling books in history.
据说它可能跻身历史上前100本畅销书之列，而且还有可能是历史上最年轻的进入前100名的书。
It is rumored to be potentially in the top 100 books that have sold in history of all time, but also rumored to be potentially the youngest book to make the top 100 books in history.
我的问题是，《原子习惯》的成功，让你对人性有什么样的认识？
My question is, what has the success of Atomic Habits taught you about the nature of humanity and humans?
我们每个人都有习惯。
We all have habits.
我们都需要习惯。
We all need habits.
你知道，这真的是一个很……
You know, it's one of those really...
这是一个有趣的概念，因为它既具有普遍性——我们都有习惯，都需要习惯——同时又非常个人化。
It's an interesting concept because it is both universal in the sense that we all have them, we all need them, but it's also highly individual.
你的习惯感觉像是你自己的，而不是我的。
Your habits feel like your habits, not mine.
所以它既普遍又具体，这种对比很有意思。
You know, and so it's both universal and specific, and that's an interesting contrast.
我觉得这也是为什么人们对这个话题如此感兴趣的原因之一。
And I think it leads to one of the reasons why people are so interested in the topic.
我们都有习惯，都需要习惯，都觉得那是属于自己的，而且我们想创造出自己独特的版本。
You know, we all have them, we all need them, we all feel like they're our own, and we want to come up with our little version of them.
但习惯也像是一个入口，影响你如何度过其他时间，比如掏出手机这个习惯。
But the habit also is like an entrance ramp to how you spend your time in other ways, like the habit of pulling out your phone.
这个习惯可能只需要两秒钟，但它可能会决定你接下来一个小时做什么。
That habit might only take two seconds to do, but then it might dictate what you do for the next hour.
比如回邮件、刷社交媒体、玩游戏，或者别的什么。
You know, you're answering emails or browsing social media or playing a video game or whatever.
而真正塑造这一个小时内容的，其实就是最初掏出手机这个习惯。
And it was really the initial habit of pulling out the phone that shaped what that hour did.
所以习惯的影响力是非常巨大的。
So the influence of our habits is enormous.
在很多方面，你生活中的结果，其实是之前那些习惯的滞后反映。
In a lot of ways, your results in life are kind of a lagging measure of the habits that precede them.
比如你的知识水平，是你阅读和学习习惯的滞后反映。
Like your knowledge is a lagging measure of your reading and learning habits.
你的银行存款，是你理财习惯的滞后反映。
Your bank account is a lagging measure of your financial habits.
甚至一些小事，比如客厅里杂物有多少，也是你清洁习惯的滞后反映。
Even silly stuff like the amount of clutter in your living room is the lagging measure of your cleaning habits.
所以我们所有人都特别希望自己的结果能改变。
And so we all so badly want our outcomes to change.
我们也非常希望自己的成果能变好，但真正需要改变的其实不是结果本身。
You know, we also badly want our results to change, but the results are not actually the thing that needs to change.
就像把习惯改好了，结果自然就会变好。
It's like fix the habits and the results will fix themselves.
改变了输入，输出就会自动跟着变。
Change the inputs and the outputs will shift automatically.
有意思的是，这本书影响了成千上万人的生活，但它肯定也在某些方面影响了你自己。
And it's funny because the book has shaped tens and tens and tens of millions of lives, but it also must have shaped you in some ways.
哦，那当然。
Oh, of course.
某种程度上，我得先学会这些理念才能写出这本书。
In a way, I had to learn the concepts to write the book.
比如，我得先养成写作习惯才能把书写出来。
Like, had to build writing habits to write the book.
我一直在习惯上挣扎，也失败过，试过一些方法但没成功，最终突破了自己，却还是没能建立起习惯。所有这些都让这本书变得更好，因为你意识到，要说出一些实用的东西有多难。
The fact that I have struggled with habits and failed with them, the fact that I've tried things and it hasn't worked out, the fact that I have eventually broken through and haven't been able to build habits, All of that made the book better because you realize how hard it is to have something practical to say.
我其实有个小理论，很多书被标榜为“怎么做”的书，但实际上它们是“做什么”的书。
I actually think I have this little theory that a lot of books are branded as how to books, but they're actually what to books.
它们告诉你该想什么。
They tell you what to think.
你应该自信。
You should be confident.
你应该相信自己。
You should believe in yourself.
你应该采取某某行动。
You should take the x y z action.
但它们并没有真正告诉你如何去做这些事情。
But they don't actually tell you how to do those things.
现在回想起来，有没有什么你后悔写进书里的内容？
And in in hindsight, is there anything you look back on that you regret about the book?
我觉得没有什么可后悔的。
I don't think there's anything that I regret.
如果我能补充点什么，我会补充的。
If I could add something, I would add something.
我会加上这个简单的问题：如果这件事很有趣，会是什么样子？
I would add this simple question, which is what would it look like if this was fun?
如果你的习惯变得有趣，会是什么样子？
What would it look like if your habits were fun?
比如，最常见的新年决心就是做某种形式的锻炼。
Like, the most common New Year's resolution is to do some form of exercise.
所以，你知道，我觉得很多人一月份去健身房，是因为他们觉得自己应该去，或者社会期望他们去，或者有某种社会压力让他们去。
So, you know, I feel like a lot of people are going to the gym in January because they feel like they should go to the gym or society wants them to go to the gym, you know, or there's some kind of social pressure to go to the gym.
但如果我们列一个清单，看看活跃、健康意味着什么，我们可以列出很多项。
But if we were to come up with a list of what it means to be active and fit, you know, and healthy, We can come up with a long list of things.
去健身房举铁。
Go to the gym and lift weights.
你可以划皮划艇、攀岩、做瑜伽、普拉提，什么的。
You could kayak, rock climb, do yoga, pilates, whatever.
你看，我们可能坐在这儿聊个十五分钟，就能列出一长串来。
Like, you know, we could probably sit here for like fifteen minutes and come up with a real long list.
而且对你大多数重要的习惯来说，我觉得花十分钟把那个清单写下来，最后再看看，问问自己：如果这件事变得有趣，会是什么样子？
And for most of your habits, if it's an important habit to you, I think it's worth it to take ten minutes and write that list out and then look at it at the end and say, what would this look like if it was fun?
这些选项里，哪个对我来说最有趣？
Which of these options is the most fun to me?
这并不意味着你的习惯会变成你每天做的最有趣的事。
And that doesn't mean that your habits will be like the most fun thing that you do each day.
你知道，它不会总是像去听演唱会那样让人兴奋。
You know, it's not like it's always gonna feel like going to a concert or something.
但这确实意味着，几乎任何习惯都可以比默认状态更有趣，对吧。
But it does mean that pretty much any habit can be more fun than the default, you know.
所以你不妨花点时间想想，这件事的有趣版本是什么样的。
So you might as well take a little bit of time to figure out what is the fun version of this.
说到底，我觉得这件事之所以重要，是因为如果你觉得好玩，你就更可能坚持下去。
And ultimately, I think the reason why this matters is that if you're having fun, you're more likely to stick with it.
你更可能坚持到底。
You're more likely to persevere.
真正玩得开心的人，其实才是最厉害的那个。
The person who's having fun is actually the person who's dangerous.
你不想跟他们竞争，因为他们玩得很开心。
Like, you don't want to compete with them because they're having a good time.
遇到困难的时候，他们更可能坚持下去。
When it gets difficult, they're way more likely to stick with it.
那些一开始就觉得麻烦、有点烦的人，他们对这件事本身就带着负面情绪，所以一旦遇到困难，他们本来就不想做。
The person who it felt like a hassle at the start was kind of, you know, annoying, they sort of have a negative frame around the behavior to begin with, well, as soon as it gets difficult, they didn't want to do it in the first place.
所以他们更容易放弃。
So they're much more likely to give up.
大卫·爱泼斯坦，就是《范围》和《体育天才》的作者，也是我朋友，他跟我说过一句话：坚持就是适合。
David Epstein, who's the author of Range and Sports Genius, a friend of mine, he told me once, Grit is fit.
毅力就是匹配。
Grit is fit.
他的意思是，每个人都想有毅力。
And what he means is that everybody wants to be gritty.
他们都想坚持下去。
They want to persevere.
但你要展现毅力、纪律和坚持，得在适合你的领域里，也就是跟你很匹配的地方。
But the way that you display that grit and discipline and perseverance is in areas where you are well suited, where it's a good fit for you.
如果很匹配，你很适合，你乐在其中，感兴趣又投入，那你就更可能坚持下去。
If it's a good fit, if you're well suited for it, if you're having fun, if you're interested and engaged, then you're way more likely to stick with it.
所以很多时候，我觉得最大的障碍，可能对整个人生都是这样，但肯定对习惯来说尤其如此，因为每个人都想坚持自己的习惯，每个人都想坚持下去。
And so in a lot of ways, feel like the biggest hurdle to clear, and this is true maybe for life in general, but definitely for habits because everybody wants to be consistent with their habits, everybody wants to stick to them.
最大的障碍是：你感兴趣吗？
The biggest hurdle to clear is, are you interested?
你投入吗？
Are are you engaged?
你玩得开心吗？
Are you having fun?
所以，你越接近那种状态，就越觉得有趣，也就越有可能坚持下去。
And so the more that you can get closer to that, the more fun it can be, the more likely you are to persevere and stick with it.
其实我前几天正好想到这个，因为我们在达到一个订阅里程碑的时候，我正在写作。
I was just thinking about this idea actually the other day because I I was writing when we hit a subscriber milestone.
我当时在写……
I was writing...
我在想什么才是最重要的。
I was trying to think about what actually mattered the most.
我写下的第一件事就是创造能让你坚持更久的条件。
And one of the the first thing I wrote was creating the conditions to out persist.
我的意思是，创造一些条件，让你能坚持足够长的时间，让事情开始对你有利地累积，比如学习开始产生复利，比如回报，比如订阅者，或者你的财务状况，不管是什么，都开始累积起来。
And what I mean by that is, like, create the conditions so that you can do this for long enough that things start compounding in your favor, like learning starts compounding in your favor, like the the the returns, like the the subscribers or that could be your finances, whatever, start compounding in
对你有利。
your favor.
你问的那个问题，跟我经常问自己的一个问题很像，就是：我有没有在为自己创造成功的条件？
The question that you asked is very similar to one that I ask myself a lot, which is, am I creating the conditions for success?
我之前在健身房训练得挺好的，但大概两年半前，我状态还不错，然后有一年就特别不稳定。
So I had a really good stretch of training in the gym and then about two and a half years ago, I was in pretty good shape and then I had a year where it was just like really inconsistent.
我错过了很多次训练，有时候顺利，有时候不顺利，就这样。
I missed a lot of workouts, things sometimes would go well, sometimes it wouldn't, whatever.
那一年之后，我就想，好吧，我得改变点什么。
And after that year, I was like, okay, I got to change something.
表面上看起来，你会觉得，我训练有问题。
And on the surface, you look at it and you think, I'm having trouble with the workouts.
你会觉得是锻炼本身有什么问题。
You think there's some problem with, you know, exercise.
但其实问题不在这。
But that was actually not the problem.
问题是我没有为自己创造成功的条件。
The problem was I wasn't creating the conditions for success.
所以有很多其他的事情在干扰我，打断我的一天，让我很容易错过锻炼。
And so there were lots of other things that were intervening and like, interrupting my day and making it easy for me to miss.
所以去年，我请了一个教练，他每周四天，每天早上11点准时到。
So this last year, I hired a trainer, and he shows up at 11AM every, you know, four days a week.
每次他来的时候，其实都挺麻烦的，因为我总在忙别的事情。
And when he gets there, every single time, it's a hassle because I'm in the middle of something.
每次我都有事在忙，看到他来还有点烦。
Every time I've got something going on and I kind of am, like, annoyed by it that he's there.
但我们这是在创造成功的条件，确保我能下楼去锻炼。
But we're creating conditions for success and it makes sure that I get down there and I do it.
每次锻炼完，我都会想，幸好我花时间做了这件事。所以其实锻炼本身没什么需要改变的。
And then every time when I get done with the workout, I'm like, I'm glad I took the time to do And so nothing really needed to change with the workout.
那并不是问题所在。
That was not the problem.
问题是我没有合适的条件去开始锻炼。
The problem was I didn't have the right conditions to start the workout.
所以我觉得这其实揭示了关于习惯的一个非常深刻和重要的道理，那就是很大程度上在于掌握开始的艺术。
And so I think this actually reveals a really deep and important thing about habits, which is so much of it is about mastering the art of getting started.
就是让开始变得容易。
It's making it easy to start.
某种程度上，可能《掌控习惯》里70%的内容都是不同的策略、不同的想法和不同的工具，帮助你开始或者让开始变得更容易。
In a way, like probably 70% of what's in Atomic Habits are different strategies and different ideas and different tools that help you get started or makes starting easier.
这个我一直跟着训练的教练，前几天他过来跟我说，是的，我早上有一节课。
This trainer who I've been working with now, he came over the other day and he told me, yeah, I had a class in the morning.
本来有八个人要来，但当时就像……
Eight people were supposed to come, but it was like...
那天天气挺糟糕的。
It was a pretty gross day.
又下雨又潮湿，还有点冷，最后只有两个人来了。
It was like rainy and wet and kind of cold, and only two people showed up.
我跟他聊起这件事，我说，我觉得有意思的是，你只需要一点点优势就能获得领先。
And I was talking to him about it, and I said, What's interesting to me about that is how little of an edge you need to gain an advantage.
你知道吗，其实我们说的就是，你只需要能忍受那么五到十分钟的不方便或者不舒服。
You know, really what we're talking about there is you just need to be okay with being inconvenienced or uncomfortable for like five to ten minutes.
穿好衣服，冒雨出门，上车，到健身房。
Getting dressed, getting through the rain, getting into your car, getting to the gym.
锻炼本身还是和以前一样。
The workout is the same that it's always been.
还是那个……
It's the same...
你还是在同一个健身房，就像夏天天气好的时候一样。
You're in the same gym that you are in the summer when the weather's beautiful or whatever.
所以关键就是，你能不能熬过那五分钟的不方便？
So it's really, can you handle that like five minutes of inconvenience?
生活中很多事情都是这样。
And so many things in life are like that.
你能不能掌握那个小小的时刻？
Can you master that little moment?
如果你能做到，而且还能开始行动，那就是你获得优势的时候。
And if you can, and you can still get started, that's when you gain an advantage.
每个人在好天气的时候都会锻炼。
Everybody works out on the good days.
但在你感到压力大、疲惫的时候，在天气不好、不太方便的时候，在你真的不想动的时候，你能不能哪怕只是小小地出现一下？
But on the days when you feel stressed and tired, on the days when the weather's bad and it's kind of inconvenient, on the days when you don't really feel like it, can you show up even if it's in a small way?
我常记在心里的一个小口诀是：缩小范围，但坚持计划。
One of my little mantras that I try to keep in mind is reduce the scope but stick to the schedule.
比如通常的计划是写三十分钟，然后你抬头看钟，发现只剩十五分钟了。
So the normal scope might be, I write for thirty minutes and then you look up at the clock and you're like, oh, only have 15.
有时候你脑子里会想：哎呀，今天没时间写了。
And sometimes what happens in your head is you're like, oh, I don't have enough time to write today.
或者你会想：我本来打算锻炼六十分钟的。
Or you're like, oh, I was planning to work out for sixty minutes.
然后你抬头一看，发现时间已经溜走了。
And you look up and you're like, time got away from me.
现在只剩二十分钟了。
I only have twenty minutes now.
没时间去健身房了。
I don't have time to go to the gym.
很容易就说服自己放弃。
It's easy to talk yourself out of it.
但缩小范围，坚持计划。
But reduce the scope, but stick to the schedule.
就像，好吧，只有二十分钟而不是六十分钟，那我就进去做几组深蹲，就这样。
It's like, well, I only got twenty minutes instead of sixty, so I'll just get in there and do a couple sets of squats, and that's it.
我有很多次锻炼都是这样的，你几乎觉得……
And I've had so many workouts that have been like that where you're like almost...
你知道，很容易因为没能完成想做的全部而感到失望，但你没有交白卷。
You know, it's easy to be kind of disappointed you weren't able to do the whole thing that you wanted to do, but you didn't throw up a zero.
只要不交白卷，你就能保持这个习惯。
And if you don't throw up a zero, you maintain the habit.
只要保持这个习惯，剩下的就交给时间。
And if you maintain the habit, all you need is time.
所以从这个角度看，糟糕的日子比顺利的日子更重要。
And so the bad days are more important than the good days in that sense.
你得想办法让自己出现，即使……
You need to figure out how do you show up even if...
即使条件不理想。
When it's not optimal.
在那最初的五分钟里，是的，我一直在想过去一周我赢下的那些最初五分钟的战斗，因为，你知道，我工作都乱了套。
In that first five minutes, yeah, I was thinking about all the the first five minute battles that I've won over the last week because I've, you know, I lost track of my work.
我一直在亚洲巡回演出。
I've been traveling through Asia on this tour I've been doing.
回来后，就掉链子了。
Got back, fallen off.
动力好像没有出发前那么足了。
The motivation doesn't seem to be quite the same as it was before I left.
所以感觉就像我在硬拖着自己去。
So it's like I'm dragging myself there.
训练质量也就十分里打四分吧。
The workouts are like four out of 10.
但我还是去了。
But I went.
现在我感觉……
And now I'm...
我觉得势头正在起来。
I think the momentum is building.
但就那最初的五分钟，你有没有学到什么？
But that first five minute point, is there anything that you've learned?
有没有什么框架或技巧，能确保你熬过那最初的五分钟，从而进入习惯的节奏？
Any frameworks, any tactics for for making sure you you get past that first five minutes so you can get into the the flow of the habit?
有好几招。
There's multiple things.
首先，试着提前布置好环境，让第一个动作变得容易。
So first thing is try to prime the environment to make the first action easy.
提前布置好环境，让第一个动作变得容易。
Prime the environment to make the first action easy.
比如说写作吧。
So let's say writing, for example.
我发现对我自己来说，最大的阻力点就是决定写什么。
I find that for myself, the biggest point of friction is choosing what to write about.
一旦我最终确定今天要写这个，我就能进入状态，然后顺利开始。
Once I've actually finally settled, this is the thing I'm writing today, then I can get into it and I'm off and running.
但我可能会坐在那里两个小时，一直在纠结该不该专注写这个。
But I'll sit there for two hours just debating whether it's the right thing to be focused on writing or not.
比如，我应该写这一章吗？
Know, should I work on this chapter?
还是应该写点别的？
Should I work on something else?
或者别的什么。
Or whatever.
所以我开始做的，有时候就是先写下我要写的第一句话，就留在Google文档里，然后就走开。
So what I've started to do is sometimes I will write the first sentence of what I'm gonna write and just leave it on the Google Doc right there and then leave.
第二天回来的时候，我已经进入状态了。
The next day when I come back, I'm already in.
就像已经……
Like it's already...
第一句话已经写好了，现在我只是接着写接下来的内容，而不是纠结要写什么。
The first sentence is already written, now I'm just writing the next piece of what's coming rather than trying to choose what to write about.
另一个我有时会做的，就是我会写……
Another one that I've done sometimes is I will write...
有时候我会把主题或者句子写在便利贴上，然后贴在键盘上面。
Sometimes I'll write the topic or I'll write the sentence on a Post it note, and I'll put it on top of the keyboard.
这样我进办公室的时候，它就在我眼前。
And so when I come into the office, it's right there in front of me.
我没办法……
I can't...
你知道，我得把它从键盘上拿开才能登录电脑。
You know, I gotta pick it off the keys to log on to the computer.
所以就像是在提醒自己，现在要写的就是这个，你明白吗？
And so it's like, remember, this is what you're writing about right now, you know?
所以就是尽量让自己容易进入状态。
So it's just trying to make it easy to get in.
我有很多读者会做类似的事情，比如提前把跑步的衣服准备好……
I have a bunch of readers who do stuff like set their running out...
前一天晚上把跑步的衣服放在床边，这样它们就在床边。
Running clothes out the night before, you know, so they're right next to the bed.
你的衣服和鞋子都放在那里。
You got your clothes and your shoes there.
我……
I...
我刚跟一位女士聊过，她在一个活动上，活动结束后她走过来跟我说，我其实穿着跑步服睡觉，起来穿上鞋就直接出门了。
One woman I just talked to, her at an event, she came up afterward and she said, I actually sleep in my running clothes and just get out and put her shoes on and goes right out the door.
但你要做的是，把环境布置好，让行动变得容易。
But you're trying to prime the environment to make the action easy.
对吧？
Okay?
那么，你怎么布置你所在的空间，来为这些习惯做好准备呢？
So how can you set up the spaces that you're in to prime those habits?
我觉得有个问题特别值得问自己：走进你每天待得最久的房间，比如办公室、客厅、卧室，然后环顾四周，问问自己，这个空间设计出来是为了鼓励什么的？
I think one really interesting question to ask, walk into the rooms where you spend most of your time each day, your office, your living room, your bedroom, and then look around and ask yourself, what is this space designed to encourage?
在这里，哪些行为是容易做的？
What behaviors are easy here?
在这里，哪些行为是显而易见的？
What behaviors are obvious here?
而你说你想养成的好习惯，是不是阻力最小的那条路呢？
And the good habits that you say you want to build, are those the path of least resistance?
在这个环境里，这是不是最显眼的事情？
Is that the obvious thing in this environment?
如果不是的话，也许你可以做些调整，让好习惯更容易养成，让干扰变得稍微难一点。
And if not, maybe you can make some adjustments to try to make the good habit easier and the distractions maybe a little bit harder.
所以这是第一件事，优化环境，让行动变得容易。
So that's first thing, prime the environment to make the action easy.
第二件事，如果说有一个原则对养成习惯最重要，那就是让它变得简单。
Second thing is if there's like one principle that is probably the single most important for building habits, it's make it easy.
把它缩小，让它变得简单。
Just scale it down and make it easy.
我有时候称之为两分钟法则。
I refer to it sometimes as the two minute rule.
所以，无论你想养成什么习惯，把它缩小到两分钟以内就能完成的事情。
So take whatever habit you're trying to work on, you scale it down to something that takes two minutes or less to do.
比如一年读30本书，就变成读一页。
So read 30 books a year becomes read one page.
或者每周做四次瑜伽，就变成拿出瑜伽垫。
Or do yoga four days a week becomes take out my yoga mat.
有时候我跟别人提这个，他们会有点抗拒。
Sometimes I will mention this to people and they resist a little bit.
你知道，他们会说，好吧，老兄。
You know, they're like, okay, buddy.
就像，我知道真正的目标不只是把瑜伽垫拿出来。
Like, I know the real goal isn't just to take my yoga mat out.
你知道，我其实是想做锻炼的。
You know, now I'm actually trying to do the workout.
所以这有点像心理把戏，我知道这是个把戏，那我为什么要上当呢？
So this is some kind of mental trick and I know it's a trick, then why would I fall for it, basically?
但有个人，我在《掌控习惯》里提到过他，他叫米奇。
But there's this guy, I mentioned him in Atomic Habits, his name's Mitch.
他去健身房，头六个星期，他给自己定了个奇怪的小规矩，就是不允许待超过五分钟。
And he went to the gym, and for the first six weeks, he had this strange little rule for himself where he wasn't allowed to stay for longer than five minutes.
所以他就会上车，开到健身房，下车，做半个动作，再上车，开回家。
So he'd get in the car, drive to the gym, get out, do half an exercise, get back in the car, drive home.
你可能会觉得，这听起来很傻，对吧？
And you're like, this sounds silly, right?
显然，这样根本不会让这个人达到他想要的效果。
Clearly, this is not going to get the guy the results that he wants.
但你会发现，他其实是在掌握“出现”的艺术，对吧？
But what you realize is that he was mastering the art of showing up, right?
他正在成为那种每周去健身房四天的人，哪怕每次只待五分钟。
He was becoming the type of person that went to the gym four days a week, even if it was only for five minutes.
所以我觉得这揭示了习惯的一个深层真理：习惯必须先建立，才能改进。
And so I think this is kind of a deep truth about habits, which is a habit must be established before it can be improved.
它必须先成为你生活中的常态，然后你才能优化它，把它扩展成更大的东西。
It has to become the standard in your life before you optimize and scale it up into something more.
有句来自艾德·拉蒂莫尔的话说：“健身房里最重的重量是前门。”
There's that quote from Ed Latimore where he says, The heaviest weight at the gym is the front door.
生活中有很多事情都是这样的。
There are lot of things in life that are like that.
所以，如果你让开始变得容易掌握、容易上手，那你就已经进入状态了。
And so by trying to make it easy to master, to easy to get started, then you're in the game.
现在你已经站在赛场上了。
Now you're in the arena.
从那里开始，你可以改进各种事情。
There's all kinds of things you can improve from there.
我记得乔丹·彼得森说过……
I remember, Jordan Peterson saying...
他谈到他的……
Talking about his...
他的一些临床病人，特别提到一个，他待在一个堆满垃圾的房间里，因为某种恐惧和心理问题而无法离开。
Some of his clinical patients and referring to one in particular who was in a room full of junk and couldn't leave the room because of a certain fear and certain psychological problems he had.
乔丹说，第一天，他们只是把吸尘器带进房间，就这样。
And Jordan saying that day one, they just brought the Hoover into the room and that was it.
第二天，他们把吸尘器插上电，就这样。
Day two, they plugged the Hoover in and that was it.
然后到了大概第三十天，那个人走出了房间，房间也干净了，他好几个月甚至好几年第一次在外面走动。
And then by day like thirty, the guy's out of the room, the room is clean and he's walking around outside for the first time in in months or years.
他接着说，人们之所以不开始，是因为第一步太让人难为情了。
And he goes on to say that the reason why people don't get started is because the first step is so embarrassing.
人们觉得这不值得做，或者做起来很丢脸。
People think that it's not worth it or that it's like shameful to do.
那种尴尬几乎像是被人怜悯一样。
It's like almost like patronizingly embarrassing.
从那以后我一直记着这一点，从你的工作里也学到了，就是假设第一步小得让人难为情，对吧？
And, I've always kept that in mind, since then and when from your work as well, just that assume the first steps are like embarrassingly small?
有个过程叫习惯塑造，基本上就是这个意思。
There's this process called habit shaping, which is is basically like that.
你知道，比如你想跑半程马拉松，第一天，步骤可能只是穿上跑鞋。
You know, like, you wanna run a half marathon, the first day, the step might be to put on your running shoes.
然后第二天，步骤就是走出家门。
And then the second day, the step is to, like, walk outside the front door.
第三天，就是绕着街区走一圈。
And the third day, the step is to go around the block.
你知道，你就是这样慢慢养成一个更大的习惯。
And you know, you're just like gradually shaping into this larger habit.
但是当人们想到要养成更好的习惯时，会发生这样一件事。
But there's this thing that happens when people think about building better habits.
特别是那些有雄心壮志的人，很容易对你能做出的所有改变感到兴奋。
Think particularly ambitious people, it's very easy to get excited about all the changes you can make.
你开始想，即使你没有明确说出来，你会想，巅峰状态会是什么样子？
You start thinking, even if you don't say this explicitly, you think like, what would peak performance look like?
你知道，如果我真的能把我的习惯调整好，我能做到什么？
You know, if I could really get my habits dialed in, what could I do?
然后你开始想象五六七件你会做的事情，以及它们完美状态下的样子，等等。
And you start imagining five, six, seven things that you would do and what all of them would look like in their perfect form and so on.
我觉得与其问自己，状态最好的时候能做什么，
And I think instead of asking ourselves, what could I do on my best day?
不如先问问，即使在状态不好的时候，我还能坚持做什么。
It's better to start by asking, what can I stick to even on the bad days?
那才是你的底线。
And that becomes your baseline.
那才是第一步。
That becomes the first step.
现在你有了一个即使累了、精疲力尽、时间不多也能达到的基础，这样你就能出现并感觉自己成功了，然后你可以从那里继续前进。
And now that you have this floor that is achievable, even when you're tired, even when you're exhausted, even when you don't have much time, now you can show up and feel like you're succeeding, you know, and then you can progress from there.
人类大脑最激励人的感觉之一就是进步的感觉。
One of the most motivating feelings to the human mind is feeling of progress.
如果你觉得自己在进步，即使比最终希望达到的要小，你也有充分的理由继续前进。
If you feel like you're making progress, even if it's smaller than what you ultimately hope to do, you have every reason to move forward.
但很多时候，我们成了自己期望的牺牲品。
But often we become like a victim of our expectations.
我们花那么多时间优化完美的计划，然后期望一开始就一切顺利。
We spend all this time optimizing the perfect plan and then expect things to go perfectly out of the gate.
而且你在脑子里把这件事想得太美好了，一旦第一天、第二天或第三天没达到那个标准，整个计划就崩了。
And you had it so built up in your mind that once you don't hit that mark in the first or second or third day, it falls apart.
你之前提到过，坐在那里两个小时想写什么。
And you talked earlier about sitting there for two hours thinking about what to write.
我觉得，在我职业生涯的第一阶段，我和那些策划营销活动的CEO和高管们合作时，我学到的是，事后看来，最大的成本往往不是犯错。
I I think I've learned through through business in in the first iteration of my career where I worked with CEOs and executives that were planning marketing campaigns that actually, in hindsight, often the biggest cost wasn't being wrong.
而是你浪费在做决定上的时间。
It was the time you waste making a decision.
你看，如果你和很多大公司打过交道，你就会发现这一点。
You see this and if you've ever you've interacted with so many big corporations.
他们会花18个月思考，比如……
Like they spend 18 months thinking about get...
等着乔安娜休完年假回来，好让采购部门签字批准这件事。
Waiting for Joanna to come back from annual leave to get procurement to sign off the thing.
在那段时期，我合作过一位特别的创始人，他……
And I worked with this one particular founder during that season of my life who...
我当时和他爸爸一起工作，他爸爸那边因为公司太大，光做决定就要花九个月。
Where I was working with his dad and him and his dad would take nine months because the company was so big.
他儿子会在我说到一半的时候打断我，把大家叫进来，说现在就做。
His son would interrupt me halfway through the idea and call us all in and say, do it now.
他让我明白，生活中最大的成本其实是做决定时浪费的时间。
And he taught me that actually in life, the the biggest cost is the time you waste making the decision.
我自己也经常反思这个，看看自己的习惯。
And I think about that with my own habits.
有时候我在想，纠结今天要不要跑步，其实比跑个步本身消耗的精力还大。
Think sometimes sitting around thinking about whether I'm gonna run today is costing me much more than Jingle Wagon.
那你觉得怎么才能消除这种内心的纠结呢？
And do you think about how you kill that mental debate?
比如，是不是有什么有效的方法能直接掐断这种纠结，而不是非得做个决定？
Like, is that an effective strategy to try and kill the debate and not make a decision per se?
所以速度永远被低估了。
So speed is perpetually undervalued.
那是肯定的。
That's for sure.
人生苦短。
Life is short.
所以你做决定越快，得到信息就越快。
And so the sooner that you make decisions, the sooner you get information.
现在，我要说，我有一个小框架，我称之为“帽子、发型、纹身”，我就是这样来思考的。
Now, I will say I I have a little framework that I call hats, haircuts, tattoos, and this is how I kind of think about it.
很多决定就像帽子。
So a lot of decisions are like hats.
你试戴一顶帽子。
You try one hat.
如果不喜欢，就摘下来。
If you don't like it, take it off.
可以再试另一顶。
Can try another.
就是很快。
It's just real quick.
你能获得一些信息。
You get some information.
速度最重要。
Speed is most important.
快速行动，获取信息，学到东西。
Move quickly, get some information, learn something.
如果错了，也没什么大不了的。
If it was wrong, it's not that big of a deal.
摘下来换顶新帽子就行。
Just take it off and put a new hat on.
理发就稍微麻烦一点了。
Haircut is a little bit trickier.
这是一个你得忍受一阵子的决定。
It's a decision that you have to live with for a little bit.
你知道，如果你剪了个糟糕的发型，你可能会觉得没事，但你得忍受一两个月。
Know, like, you're okay if you get a bad haircut, but you're gonna have to live with it for a month or two.
你知道，头发长回来需要一点时间，所以其实没必要害怕剪坏头发。
You know, it's gonna take a little bit of time for it to grow And so it's probably not a big deal to be scared of getting a bad haircut.
我觉得很多人可能都会自己劝退自己。
I think a lot of people probably talk themselves out of it.
就像，一个月后你就会没事了。
It's like, you'll be fine in a month.
没事的，真的没事。
It's it's fine.
纹身就更麻烦了。
Tattoos are trickier.
你知道，一旦纹了身，你就得一直带着那个选择。
Know, you get a tattoo, you gotta live with that choice.
这是永久的。
It's permanent.
所以，我们真正要说的就是，这个选择是可逆的还是不可逆的？
And so if, really what we're getting at here is, is the choice reversible or is the choice irreversible?
如果选择很容易逆转，速度最重要。
If the choice is easy to reverse, speed is most important.
你应该快速行动。
You should move fast.
如果很难逆转，而且你必须承受后果，那在做决定之前你需要仔细考虑。
If it's hard to reverse and you gotta live with it, then you need to think carefully before you make the call.
我想你可能从自己的经历中看到，生活中大多数决定都像帽子和理发一样。
And I think probably what you're seeing through some of your experiences is that most decisions in life are hats and haircuts.
很少会遇到像纹身那样的情况。
It's very rare that you end up with a tattoo.
但我们却把所有决定都当成纹身来对待。
But we treat them all like tattoos.
展开剩余字幕（还有 480 条）
我们……
We've...
我们……
We...
我觉得特别是那些糟糕的发型，我们特别害怕。
I think in particular, we are we are scared, particularly the bad haircuts, I think.
就是那些会持续一小段时间，但不会太久的。
The ones that, like, linger for just a little bit but not that long.
就像，如果你搞错了，可能要花一个月才能修好。
It's like, it's gonna take you a month to fix this if if you get it wrong.
但，那也没关系。
But, like, that's fine.
反正一个月也会过去。
A month's gonna pass anyway.
所以其实没那么严重，但我们表现得好像比实际严重得多。
And so it's not that big of a deal, but we we act like it's a bigger deal than it is.
有没有一个特别具体的案例或者故事，来自《掌控习惯》的社群成员，或者读了你的通讯的人，对你来说影响最大的？
Is there a particular case study or story from Atomic Habits community member or someone that reads your newsletter that has been the most impactful for you?
没有
There's not
单一的某一个。
a single one.
有很多让我感到骄傲或者特别兴奋的，也有一些让我感到意外的。
There are lots that I'm, like, proud of or really excited by, ones I'm surprised by.
前几天我收到一个家伙的消息，他是圣奥拉夫大学的男子足球队主教练。
I heard from a guy the other day, he was the head coach at St.
在明尼苏达。
Olaf's University in Minnesota men's soccer.
他刚来的时候，球队的战绩大概是五胜十三负，排名接近垫底。
And when he came in, their record was something like five and thirteen and they were near the bottom of the standings.
他说，我接手这份工作的时候正好读了《掌控习惯》，然后我们为做的每件事都建立了系统。
And he was like, I read Atomic Habits right around the time I took this job and we came up with systems for everything we did.
我们教球员们一套系统，比如怎么系鞋带、怎么穿球鞋，为比赛做准备。
We taught our players systems for how they tie their shoes and cleats to get ready for the game.
我们教他们一套赛前训练准备的方法。
We taught them systems for how they prep for practice.
我们教他们在场上的角色定位。
We taught them systems for their role on the field.
然后，你知道，他们每年都在慢慢进步。
And, you know, gradually, they improved each year.
从五胜十三负，到八胜八负，再下一年拿了联赛冠军，再下一年进了NCAA十六强，五年后拿了全国冠军。
Five and thirteen, then they went like eight and eight, and then the next year after that, they won the conference, and then the year after that, they went to the NCAA Sweet sixteen, and then five years later, they won the national championship.
你知道，听到这样的故事当然很棒，对吧？
You know, of course, stuff like that's awesome to hear Right?
他们从五场胜利，五年后拿了全国冠军。
You know, like, they went from they went from five wins, and and then five years later, they win the national title.
但对我来说最重要的，是那些有人跟我说‘我终于感觉好多了’的故事。
But the ones that matter to me the most are the ones that I hear from somebody and they say, I finally feel better.
你知道吗，我感觉自己不一样了。
You know, I feel different.
我照镜子的时候，为自己感到骄傲。
I look in the mirror and I'm like proud of who I am.
或者我的孩子告诉我，他们很期待看到我的变化，诸如此类。
Or, my kids tell me that they're excited to see, you know, the change in me or things like that.
而这一直都是最重要的。
And that's what it's always been about.
你知道，这始终是关于成为你想成为的那种人。
You know, it's always been about becoming the type of person that you want to be.
所以我觉得，每当我听到这样的故事，我都觉得很兴奋。
And so I think, anytime I I hear stories like that, I I think it's exciting.
那么，这是教练还是……
So when this, was it a coach or was it
特拉维斯·沃尔。
Travis Wall.
他是圣奥拉夫学院的主教练。
He's the head coach at Saint Olaf's.
他现在是凯尼恩学院的主教练。
He's the head coach at Kenyon, now.
所以他在那里谈到了系统。
So he talked about systems there.
我们大多数人想到的是待办事项清单、目标之类的东西。
Most of us think about to do lists and goals and those kinds of things.
系统和目标之间有什么区别？
What what is the difference between a system and a goal?
我长期以来一直非常以目标为导向。
I was very goal driven for a long time.
我的意思是，我可能现在还是这样。
I I mean, I probably still am.
你知道，我觉得我们不可能回避这样一个事实：我们都有目标，都会考虑自己想要的结果等等。
You know, I don't think there's any way to get around the fact that we all have goals and think about the outcomes we want and so on.
但目标是你想要达到的结果，而系统是实现这个结果的过程。
But a goal is about the outcome that you want to achieve and a system is about the process for getting there.
所以你的目标就是靶子，是结果，是你努力追求的东西。
And so your goal is the target, the outcome, the thing you're shooting for.
你的系统就是你每天遵循的那些习惯的集合。
Your system is the collection of daily habits that you follow.
如果你的目标和系统之间有差距，如果你想要的结果和你的日常习惯之间有差距，那么你的日常习惯总是会赢。
And if there is ever a gap between your goal and your system, if there's ever a gap between your desired outcome and your daily habits, your daily habits will always win.
所以几乎可以说，你现在的习惯正好造就了你现在的成果。
You know, and so almost by definition, your current habits are perfectly designed to deliver your current results.
如果你想知道自己最终会走到哪里，就看看你习惯的轨迹吧。
You know, if you want to see like where you're going to end up, just follow the trajectory of your habits.
你知道，你过去六个月、一年或两年一直在执行的过程是什么？
Know, what's the process you've been running for the last six months or a year or two years?
这些习惯几乎不可避免地把你带到了现在的结果。
And they've carried you almost inevitably to the outcomes that you have right now.
不过，我不是说习惯是生活中唯一重要的东西，对吧？
Now, I'm not saying that habits are the only thing that matter in life, right?
比如策略很重要，运气、随机性、那些不幸的事情，这些都可能影响结果。
Like strategy matters, luck, randomness, those misfortune, those things can influence the outcome.
但运气和随机性本来就不受你控制，而习惯是你自己能掌控的。
But by definition, luck and randomness are not under your control and your habits are.
生活中唯一合理理性的做法，就是专注于那些你能控制的部分。
And the only reasonable rational approach in life is to focus on the pieces that are within your control.
所以我觉得，目标在设定方向方面是有用的。
So I think goals can be good for setting a sense of direction.
它们能带来清晰度，特别是如果你有团队，能让所有人朝同一个方向努力。
They're good for clarity, especially if you have a team, get everybody rowing in the same direction.
但一旦你确定了目标，基本上就应该把它放在架子上，打个比方，然后把大部分时间花在建立更好的系统上。
But once you've decided what the goal is, you should basically set it on the shelf metaphorically speaking and spend the vast majority of your time focused on building a better system.
我们每天执行的习惯，是如何让我们更接近想要的结果呢？
How are the habits we're executing each day moving us closer to this outcome that we want?
所以，自从这本书出版以来，我讲了五六年这个话题，我最终的结论是，目标最适合那些只在乎赢一次的人。
And so where I've come after talking about this for five or six years now since the book's been out, where I've come down on it is goals are best for people who care about winning once.
系统最适合那些想要反复获胜的人。
Systems are best for people who care about winning repeatedly.
如果你真的想一次又一次地取得进步，想登顶并保持领先，你需要一套维持领先的流程，一套习惯来让这台机器持续运转。
If you really want to make progress again and again, if you want to get to the top and stay at the top, you need some process for staying up there, some collection of habits that's going to keep this machine running.
这就是为什么我在书里说，我们不会上升到目标的高度。
So this is why I say in the book, we don't rise to level of our goals.
我们只会跌落到系统的水平。
We fall to level of our systems.
但听你这么说，我想到了很多关于商业、创始人和创业者的事情，因为他们都有宏大的目标。
But as you were talking, I was thinking so much about about business and founders and entrepreneurs because they all have big goals.
想打造最好的人工智能应用，或者最好的，我不知道，餐厅。
Wanna build the best AI app or the best, I don't know, restaurant.
然后我们……
And we...
他们确实非常专注于这些目标。
They stay really focused on those.
但那些最优秀的……
But the great...
我觉得我在这档节目里见过和采访过的最优秀的创始人，其实都非常注重你书里说的第一性原理和系统。
The greatest founders that I think I've met and interviewed on this show are actually really orientated on, like, what you call in the book first principles and systems.
有没有办法让人更倾向于系统思维和第一性原理，也就是那些能达成目标的习惯？
Is there a way to to become more orientated towards systems and and thinking about first principles, like the the habits that lead to the goal?
是不是……
Is...
还是说，这纯粹是某些人天生就有的特质？
Or is it just just so that some people have it?
因为像埃隆·马斯克就总在谈第一性原理，他思考问题的方式就是构建系统。
Because, like, Elon Musk is always talking about first principles, and he thinks in terms of building the system.
我确实觉得有一部分是性格使然，就像你……
I do think some of it is personality and like what you...
你觉得什么让你兴奋？
What's exciting to you to think about.
比如，有些人非常面向未来，喜欢思考系统是什么，以及这些系统会带来什么结果，等等；或者更注重过程。
Like, some people are very future oriented and like thinking about what the systems are and what that would lead them to and and so on, or more process oriented.
但你可以问一些问题来帮助你弄清楚应该关注哪些系统。
But there are a number of questions that you can ask that can help you figure out what systems you should be focused on.
所以，我喜欢的一些问题中，有一个是：我目前的习惯能带我走向我想要的未来吗？
So a couple of the ones I like, one question is, can my current habits carry me to my desired future?
你现在有一堆习惯在遵循。
So you have a bunch of habits you're following right now.
你走在哪条路上？
What path are you on?
你目前的习惯能带你去那里吗？
Can your current habits take you there?
答案可能是肯定的，也可能是否定的。
And they could be either way.
有时候答案是肯定的，那你需要的就是耐心。
Like sometimes the answer is yes and what you need is patience.
你只需要继续沿着这条路走下去。
You just need to keep staying on the path.
但有时候答案是否定的。
But sometimes the answer is no.
那显然就需要做出一些改变了。
Then obviously something needs to change.
你期待一个结果，但你的生活方式却完全不同。
You're hoping for one outcome, but then you're following a different lifestyle.
所以，想要那个结果却不改变生活方式，那简直是在折磨自己。
So to want the outcome without the lifestyle is to like torture yourself.
真正重要的不是你是否想要那个结果。
And what really matters is not do you want the result?
如果直接把结果给你，谁都会想要。
Anybody would like the result if you just hand it to them.
问题是，你想要的是那种生活方式吗？
The question is do you want the lifestyle?
每当我考虑一个新项目或者对某件事特别兴奋的时候，我总会先问自己一个问题：我想怎么度过我的每一天？
One of the little things I try to do whenever I have a new business project I'm thinking about or something I'm excited about potentially doing, the first question I ask is, how do I want to spend my days?
然后你会画一个框，在框里面，我们怎么才能赚最多的钱、影响最多的人、做出最大的贡献，但不要超出这个框。
And so then you'd like draw a box and inside that box, how can we make the most money, reach the most people, make the biggest impact, you know, make the contribution that you wanna make, but not outside of it.
但很多时候，人们恰恰是反着来的。
And what happens a lot of the time is people do that in reverse.
他们一开始就问：怎么才能赚最多的钱、影响最多的人、做出最大的贡献？
They start by asking, how can we make the most money or reach the most people or make the biggest impact?
然后他们觉得，哦，这就是我想做的事，但实际上这并不符合他们想要的生活方式。
And then they decide, oh, well, is what I want to do, but it's actually outside of how they want to spend their days.
这样是行不通的，因为这就回到了我们之前说的：这件事有趣吗？
And it's not going to work out well because it goes back to our point previously about, is this fun?
如果他们不想这样过日子，那你只是在硬撑一阵子，最后还是会失败的。
If they don't want to spend their time that way, you're just grinding for a little while and eventually it's not going to work.
这就是建立真正有效系统的关键——这是不是你想要的生活方式？
That's the key for building systems that really work is, is this how you want to spend your days?
想要过这种生活方式的人，更容易得到想要的结果。
The person who wants to live the lifestyle is much better positioned to get the result.
你说目标作为……存在多个问题。
You say that there are multiple problems with goals as a...
我猜，作为思考该做什么或该追求什么的准则。
I guess, as a rubric for thinking about what to do or what to aim for.
其中一个问题是，赢家和输家都有
One of them is that winners and losers have
相同的目标。
the same goals.
每个人都想要结果。
Everybody wants the results.
假设有100个人申请一份工作。
Let's say you have a 100 people apply for a job.
你有一个新的职位空缺。
You got a new job opening.
大概每个候选人的目标都是得到这份工作。
Presumably, every candidate has the goal of getting the job.
但目标并不是决定结果的关键。
The goal is not the thing that determines the outcome.
所以赢的人和输的99个人，他们的目标是一样的。
So the person who wins and the 99 people who lose, they have the same goals.
看看奥运会。
You look at the Olympic games.
大概在任何项目里，每个参赛者的目标都是赢得奥运奖牌，对吧，赢得金牌。
Presumably, any event, everybody who's competing has the goal of winning the Olympic medal, right, of winning the gold.
所以目标并不是造成差异的东西。
So the goal is not the thing that makes the difference.
所以再说一遍，赢家和输家的目标是一样的。
So again, winners and losers have the same goals.
所以如果他们的目标相同，那目标就不可能是造成他们表现差异的原因。
So if they have the same goals, they cannot be the thing that make the difference in their performance.
一定是别的东西。
It has to be something else.
也许有目标是其中的一部分，也许是必要的，但单靠目标并不足以得到你想要的结果。
Maybe having a goal is part of it, maybe it's necessary, but it's not sufficient for the outcome that you want.
为此，你需要的是一个系统。
And for that, what you need is a system.
你需要一系列的习惯，这些习惯会带来不同，并累积成更大的成果。
You need a collection of habits that are going to make the difference and accumulate into a bigger outcome.
你说目标会限制你的幸福感。
And you say goals restrict your happiness.
内心有一种隐含的承诺，就是一旦我达到了这个目标，我就会快乐。
There's some implicit promise internally that once I get to this goal, then I'll be happy.
你知道，一旦我写了一本《纽约时报》畅销书，我就会感觉好一些。
You know, once I write a New York Times bestseller, then I'll feel better about it.
你知道，一旦我在体重秤上达到某个数字，我就会对自己的身材满意。
You know, once I achieve this certain number on the scale, then I'll be happy with my body.
一旦我的生意收入达到一百万美元，我就会对生意满意。
Once I get to a million dollars in revenue, then I'll be happy with the business.
所以你一直在把幸福推迟到下一个里程碑，觉得一旦达到那里，你终于会满足了。
And so you're kind of constantly pushing happiness off to the next milestone and thinking that once you get there, then finally you'll be satisfied.
但我认为，实际上更好的做法是爱上这个过程，爱上这种生活方式。
But I think, in fact, the better way to do it is to fall in love with the process, to fall in love with the lifestyle.
这样你就能在过程中感到快乐，同时仍然实现目标，仍然达到里程碑。
Then you can be happy along the way and still achieve the goals as you go, still achieve the milestones.
很长一段时间，我都在纠结。
For a long time, I wrestled.
我一直在纠结一个问题：如果我想有动力，是不是就必须感到不满足？
I had trouble with this question of, do I have to be dissatisfied if I want to be driven?
你
Do you
是不是必须感到不满足才能有动力？
have to be dissatisfied to be driven?
因为对我来说，我觉得现在的位置和我想达到的位置之间有个差距。
Because to me, I felt like there's where I'm at right now and there's where I want to be, and so there's this gap.
而这个差距就是不满足。
And that gap is dissatisfaction.
这个差距就是，你知道的，你希望它改变。
That gap is, you know, you want it to change.
你希望它缩小。
You want it to close.
而正是这种想要缩小差距的愿望在激励你、驱动你。
And it's also what is motivating and driving you is to try to close that gap.
所以最健康的答案，也许答案是肯定的，我不知道。
And so the healthiest answer, maybe the answer is yes, I don't know.
但是，我想出的最健康的答案是，想象一颗橡子从树上掉下来。
But, the healthiest answer that I've come up with is imagine like an acorn falls from a tree.
它成功扎根，长成幼苗，然后变成小树，最终长成一棵成熟的橡树。
It manages to take root, becomes a seedling and then a sapling and eventually grows into this mature oak tree.
在这个过程中，当它还是一颗橡果时，它从不会批评自己为什么还不是一棵小树。
And at no point in that process, when it was just an acorn, it wasn't criticizing itself for not being a sapling.
它只是一棵小树。
It was just a sapling.
它不会批评自己为什么还不是一棵橡树。
It wasn't criticizing itself for not being an oak.
它对自己所处的位置并不感到不满。
It wasn't dissatisfied with where it was at.
也没有人过来批评它，说：哦，我真不敢相信你还没长成一棵大树。
And nobody came over and was criticizing it for, oh, I can't believe you're not a full grown tree yet.
但它一直在生长。
But it kept growing the whole time.
所以同时，你看到的是，它在每个阶段都是完美的，而且它
So simultaneously, you have this thing where it was both perfect at each stage that it
她突破了。
She's got a breakaway.
她完全没人防守。
She's all alone.
她冲过去了。
She's going.
她冲过去了。
She's going.
哎呀，不好。
Oh, no.
进错球门了，孩子。
Wrong goal, kiddo.
场上真是乱成一团。
It's chaos out there.
但他们的肚子可不用乱。
Their stomachs don't have to be.
介绍Culturelle儿童益生菌加电解质。
Introducing Culturelle Kids Probiotics Plus Electrolytes.
无糖，比单纯喝水更补水，来自儿科医生推荐第一的品牌。
Sugar free, more hydrating than water alone from the number one pediatrician recommended brand.
青少年足球从不无聊，但你孩子的肠胃应该保持平静。
Youth soccer is never boring, but your kid's stomach should be.
Culturelle益生菌，让肠胃保持平静的科学。
Culturelle probiotics, the science of a boring gut.
详情请见网站。
See website for details.
那个。
That.
本来没什么问题，但它还是继续长。
Nothing was wrong, and yet it continued to grow.
原因就是，橡树本来就会这样。
And the reason is because that's just what an oak tree does.
这就是它的天性。
That's what it is encoded to do.
它天生就是要生长的。
It is encoded for growth.
所以当我审视自己时，我觉得如果我把自己的位置摆对，这就是我的感受。
And so when I look at myself, I think if I put myself in the right position, that's how I feel about it.
在每一个阶段，我对自己的处境都完全满意，但我天生就是要成长的，对吧？
Am perfectly happy with where I'm at at each stage and yet I'm encoded to grow, right?
我天生就要继续前进。
I'm encoded to keep going.
所以我可以既有动力又感到满足。
And so I can both be driven and be satisfied.
我可以既珍惜当下，又继续向前。
I can both be appreciative of the moment and still moving forward.
我觉得当你找到那件事的时候，这种状态是最好的。
And I think that works best when you find that thing.
有时候我们称之为你的优势。
Sometimes we call it your strengths.
有时候我们可能会说这是你天生注定要做的事。
Sometimes we might say it's what you're encoded to do.
但当你找到那个非常适合你的事情时。
But when you find that thing that is well aligned for you.
如果你真的找到了，那你就能同时拥有这两样东西。
And if you do find that, then you can have both of those.
我很喜欢这个说法。
I love that.
真的很喜欢。
I love that.
而且我觉得随着年龄和阅历的增长，我越来越接近那种状态，我清楚地知道没有什么能让我更开心了。
And I think with with age and maturity, I've gotten closer to being in that region where I'm well aware nothing is gonna make me happier at all.
比如，未来任何成就都不行。
Like, no accomplishment in the future.
没有什么能改变任何事情。
Nothing's gonna change anything.
但同时，我仍然在努力。
But at the same time, I'm still striving.
这确实在某种程度上感觉像是一个矛盾。
And that does feel like a contradiction to some degree.
感觉就像，这两件事怎么可能同时成立呢？
It feels like how can those two things be true at the same time?
你在追求那些你知道其实不会带来任何改变的事情。
That you're striving for things that you know won't really move the needle in any any way.
我和自然界的事物之间的区别在于，我……
The difference I see between like me and something in nature is that I...
自然界的事物大概不会在Instagram上拿自己和别人比较，对吧。
The thing in nature probably isn't comparing itself on Instagram to like Mhmm.
所有人。
Everyone else.
我觉得人就是比较的机器，就像我们怎么理解事物的价值一样。
And I understand humans to be, like, comparison machines, kind of how we understand the value of things.
比如，我通过菜单上便宜的牛排和最贵的牛排来理解牛排的价值。
Like, I understand the value of the steak on a menu by the the cheap steak and the most expensive one.
所以我觉得中间那个可能比较合适。
So I think the middle one is probably right.
你觉得在这个图景中，比较是激励还是打击人的力量？
Do you think much about comparison as a motivating or demotivating force in this picture?
我觉得它可能很有帮助，但也可能非常有害。
I think it can be very helpful and also it can also be very harmful.
所以关键就在于你怎么用它。
So it's just sort of a sense of how you use it.
我倾向于觉得比较小的事情会更好。
I tend to find it better if you compare small things.
比如比较营销策略、深蹲姿势，或者写作风格，或者每章的第一句话，比如怎么写出一个好的开头？
So if you compare marketing strategies or SQUAT form or, you know, writing style or, you know, the first sentence of each chapter, like, how do I have a good intro?
如果你比较的是具体的方法，那对提升技能和能力真的很有帮助。
If you compare tactics, then that can be really helpful for building skills and for developing your ability.
但如果你比较的是大事，比如婚姻、净资产之类的，那就……
If you compare big things, marriage, net worth, you know, things like that, it's like...
那基本上就是让自己不开心的路子，因为那些事情……
That's just kind of a recipe for ending up unhappy because they...
事情越大，就越模糊。
As the scale gets bigger, things get more vague.
婚姻里涉及的因素太多了，所以……
There's so many things involved in marriage and so...
你知道，净资产什么的也一样。
You know, or net worth or whatever.
你只看到了一小部分，却想拿这两个大东西去比，但你根本不知道全貌是什么。
You you just see one little slice and you are trying to compare these two big things, but you don't even know what the full picture is.
啊，好的。
Ah, okay.
所以，比较用在具体的事情上，就像技能的老师；但用在大的方面，就成了快乐的窃贼。
And so comparison is like the teacher of skills when it's applied narrowly, but it's the thief of joy when it's applied broadly.
有道理。
That makes sense.
我记得你说过，有抱负的人有很多愿望，很多想养成的习惯。
I remember when you said that ambitious people, they have lots of aspirations, lots of habits they wanna start.
我想到自己，觉得我大概有三十个习惯想养成。
I was thinking about myself and thinking, there's probably 30 habits that I would like to acquire.
我想写得更好。
I'd wanna be better at writing.
我想成为一个跑步者。
I wanna be a runner.
我想在演讲方面更出色。
I wanna be better at speaking.
我想成为一个更好的朋友，对朋友更用心，确保在他们生日时发短信什么的，你懂的，所有这些我想追求的新习惯。
I wanna be a better friend and be more, attentive with my friends and make sure I text them on their birthdays and shit, you know, all of these new habits that I wanna pursue.
那怎么知道该先瞄准哪一个呢？
How does one know which one to aim for first?
有没有什么方法可以判断？
Is there a framework for knowing?
这个嘛……
There...
其实有些事情你可以做。
There's some things that you can do.
我觉得，就像你之前说的，有时候最冒险的事情就是花很长时间做决定，你知道，如果你……
I don't think, to your point earlier about, sometimes the riskiest things just take a long time making a decision, you know, if you...
也许你应该先选一个，专注做它，然后再去做下一个。
Maybe you should just pick one and work on it, then you can get on to the next one.
但我确实觉得有一些策略，一个好的起点是问自己，哪些习惯能带动其他好事发生。
But I do think there's some level of strategy, which is a good place to start is by asking yourself which habits are upstream from other good things happening.
比如说，我知道如果你……
So for example, I know that if you were...
也许，要开始的问题就是，当你过得好的一天，当你感觉状态很好，事情进展顺利的时候，那天通常有什么？
Maybe the maybe the question to start with is when you live a good day, when you feel dialed in, when things are like rolling along well for you, what tends to be part of that day?
睡眠。
Sleep.
你知道吗？
You know?
好的。
Okay.
很好。
Great.
所以，对我来说，睡眠绝对是其中之一。
So that's, you know, I would say for me, sleep sleep is definitely one.
我会说，完成锻炼。
I would say, getting my workout in.
还有
And
通常阅读和写作也是其中的一部分，但我觉得可以归结为阅读。
usually reading and writing are part of it, but I think I could just boil it down to reading.
如果我读个十页，往往就能激发写作的灵感。
If I just read like 10 pages, that often sparks the writing.
所以对我来说，阅读就像是写作的燃料。
So like reading is like the fuel for writing for me.
所以可以说，锻炼一下，再读个五分钟或十分钟。
So I could say get a workout in and read for five minutes or ten minutes.
这两件事是美好一天的一部分。
Those are the two things that are part of a good day.
而且它们往往是许多其他好事发生的前奏。
And what happens is they're upstream from a lot of other good things happening.
比如，如果我锻炼了，是的，我感觉很好。
For example, if I get the workout in, yeah, I feel good.
我就能享受到锻炼带来的好处。
I get the benefits of the workout.
但运动完之后，我会有大概一两个小时的高涨状态，所以我……
But I also have a post workout high for like an hour or two, so I...
我的专注力和注意力会更好。
My focus and concentration is better.
晚上睡得也更好，因为运动了，身体累了。
I sleep better at night because I got the workout in and now I'm tired.
我运动的时候，饮食也会更健康。
I tend to eat better when I work out.
不运动的时候，我反而吃得乱七八糟。
It's when I'm not working out that I eat terribly.
所以，怎么说呢，就是不想浪费这个状态吧。
That's why, I don't know, it's kinda like I don't wanna waste it or something.
所以我从来没刻意去培养专注习惯、睡眠习惯或者饮食习惯。
So at no point was I trying to build better focus habits or sleep habits or nutrition habits.
这些只是运动带来的自然结果。
Those just came kind of as a natural consequence of getting the workout in.
那么，你做的那些能带动其他好事发生的事情是什么呢？
So what are those things that you do that are upstream from other good things happening?
我觉得这些就像是好的锚定习惯，值得开始并专注去做。
I think those are good like anchor habits to start and focus on.
如果我能再给自己加一个，那就是留出一点时间。
If I could add another one for myself, I would say it's a little bit of time.
其实就是用来思考的时间，用来反思和回顾。
It's really just time to think, but it's time to reflect and review.
有个有趣的现象，如果你工作态度特别好，勤奋努力让你在人生中走得很远，那它就会变成一种依赖。
There's this interesting thing that happens if you have a really good work ethic, if you have a strong work ethic and working hard has gotten you far in life, it kind of becomes a crutch.
你知道，你……
You know, you...
很长一段时间，我遇到问题就会想，好吧，我就靠努力去解决它。
For for a long time, I was like, if I ever had a problem, I was like, well, I'll just work my way out of it.
你知道，我就一直更努力地干，直到把它搞定。
You know, I'll just just work harder on it until I figure it out.
而且那个……
And that...
那挺好的。
That's great.
在很多事情上确实很有用。
That's really powerful for a lot of things.
但到了某个时候，它就不灵了。
But at some point, it breaks.
你知道，比如你拼命努力，也许能多付出10%或20%的努力，但总有个极限。
You know, like you can maybe, if you really try, maybe you can work 10% harder or 20% harder, but there's some limit.
但如果你做对了事情，结果可能是100倍甚至1000倍的提升。
But if you work on the right thing, well, you can get a 100 x the result or a thousand x the result.
所以如果你只是一味埋头苦干，很可能不会把时间花在最有价值的事情上。
And so if you just keep your head down and work hard, it's very unlikely that you'll be spending your time in the highest and best way.
而唯一能弄清楚这一点的方法，就是留出时间来反思和复盘，留出时间来思考。
And the only way to figure that out is to have time to reflect and review, time to think.
所以你需要足够的时间去思考，弄清楚下一步该专注什么。
So you need enough time to think to figure out what should I be focused on next.
所以我觉得这几乎是……
And so I think that is...
这几乎是……
It's almost...
反思和复盘几乎是凌驾于所有习惯之上的元习惯，因为如果你给自己时间去反思和复盘，你就能找出习惯中的问题，并想办法调整它们。
Reflection and review is almost like the meta habit that is above all others because if you give yourself time to reflect and review, then you can troubleshoot your habits and figure out how to adjust them.
听你说的时候，我在想，那段反思和复盘的时间其实也是在审视我当前所有的系统，看它们是否在推动我前进，因为……
I was thinking as you were saying that that that time to reflect and review is actually also a review of all my current systems moving me closer because
当你谈到这个的时候，我想起了我生命中的一些时刻，那时我离目标那么近，深陷在具体事务中，甚至都没能停下来问一句：我能不能建立一个系统，在未来的五年或十年里解决这个问题？
When when when you're talking about that, was thinking of times in my life where I was so close to, like, the picture and I was so in the trenches doing the thing that I hadn't come up to even say, actually, is there a system I could put in place to solve this problem over the next five or ten years?
比如，我是不是需要雇一个人？
Like, for example, is there a person I need to hire?
所以，我是不是应该去走招聘流程，而不是自己在那儿修问题？
So actually, should I go into the hiring process versus being there fixing the problem myself?
我这周要不要花十个小时在招聘上？
Should I spend ten hours this week high...
是花时间招个人来做这件事，还是我自己来做？
On hiring a candidate to do this or should I be doing it?
但有时候你会太陷在具体事务里，尤其是当事情很棘手、进展很快的时候，
But sometimes you get so caught up in the trenches when...
你根本顾不上回头审视自己的系统。
Especially when things are tough and and difficult and moving very quickly that you don't review your systems.
而且，你提到系统的时候，我想到系统有时候也会过期失效。
And also, when you talk about systems, I thought about how systems sometimes expire.
对。
Sure.
因为情况会变。
Because things change.
这点说得很好。
That's a great point.
我觉得这可能是习惯养成中最容易被忽视的一点。
And I think this is probably one of the most overlooked things with habits.
很多时候，当一个人坐下来想养成一个新习惯时，他们不会明说，但心里其实默认，这个习惯成功就意味着要一辈子做下去。
A lot of the time when someone sits down and they wanna build a new habit, they don't say this, but what they kind of assume is what it would mean to be successful with this habit is that I do it for the rest of my life.
你懂吧？
You know?
而且如果某一天没做，就觉得自己失败了或者放弃了。
And that if at some point I'm not doing it, then that must mean that I failed or I quit on it.
但根本不是这样的。
But that's not how it is at all.
就像，事情都有它的周期，你明白吧，所以习惯也得随着时间改变形态。
Like, things have a season, you know, and so habits have to change shape over time.
就拿我写东西的习惯来说吧。
Let's take my, my writing habit for example.
我……
I...
让我事业起步的习惯是，我每周一和周四各写一篇新文章，这样坚持了三年。
The habit that launched my career was I wrote a new article every Monday and Thursday and I did that for three years.
所以头三年，150篇文章，你知道的，每周写两篇。
So the first three years, 150 articles, you know, write twice a week.
那是个很棒的习惯。
That was a great habit.
每篇大概两千字左右。
There were like 2,000 word pieces or so.
但后来我签了《掌控习惯》的写书合同。
But then I signed the book deal for Atomic Habits.
我没法同时兼顾写文章和写书，所以这个习惯必须改变。
I didn't have the capacity to do that and also write the book, so that had to change.
我花了大约三年时间写那本书，书出版后，现在我每周写一封简报，而且短得多。
I wrote the book for like three years, and then the book came out, and now I write a newsletter once a week, and that's much shorter.
但我感觉我的写作习惯在那段时间一直保持着，只是形式变了。
But I kind of feel like my writing habit is maintained that whole time, it just changed shape.
但这没关系，只是需要根据阶段调整一下。
But that's fine, it just needed to shift based on the season.
但我觉得，人们有时候太执着于一种习惯的形式，没意识到它已经不再适合自己了。
But I don't know, people, they get so attached to one form of a habit sometimes that they don't realize that it's no longer serving them.
而且我觉得这就是……
And I think that's the...
最难放弃的习惯之一，就是那些曾经对你有益、曾经很有效，但在当前阶段已经不再适合你的习惯。
One of the trickier things to give up is a habit that used to be good for you, that used to work well, but no longer serves you in your current season.
这……
It's...
我发现自己在这方面学得比较慢。
I find that I'm kind of a slow learner with that.
我想父母们应该特别有共鸣，因为他们被迫改变目标，所以相应的系统也必须……
I guess parents can probably really relate because they're forced to basically change their goals, and therefore, systems would have to...
我是说，你是不是……
I mean, are you...
你是三个孩子的爸爸，所以这方面你肯定比我懂多了。
You're a father of three, so probably know this much better than I do.
但是有没有……
But have...
有没有哪些系统是你不得不调整的？
Has there been systems that you've had to sort
我觉得人生中有很多转折点。
I think there's lots of inflection points in life.
生孩子就是其中之一。
So having kids is one of them.
比如开始新工作、搬到新城市，你知道，就是这种大事。
Starting a new job, moving to a new city, you know, it can be big stuff like that.
我刚跟一位妈妈聊过，她……
I've just talked to a mother who...
她的孩子都搬出去了，所以她现在成了空巢老人。
Her kids moved out, so she's now an empty nester.
你知道吗，她说，过去二十五年我一直在养育这些孩子，现在终于他们都离开了。
You know, she's like, last twenty five years, I've been parenting all these kids, now finally, they're all out.
但感觉有点……
But it feels all...
从某种意义上说，几乎感觉像是失去了自我认同。
In some sense, it almost feels like a loss of identity.
你知道吗，你会觉得，我以为我是某种人，现在感觉一切都变了。
You know, you're like, I I thought I was one thing, now, you know, it feels like things have shifted.
但这也只是标志着人生中的一个转折点，以及你正处在一个新的阶段。
But also, it just signals an inflection point in life and a new season that you're in.
当你的阶段改变时，你的习惯往往也需要随之改变。
And when your seasons change, your habits often need to change with it.
当你谈到这个四炉理论时，我觉得它和我们这里讨论的内容很契合，你用这个来思考在任何人生阶段该追求哪些习惯，但我也想到一个经常在节目里听到母亲们说的话，那就是你不可能同时拥有一切。
When you talk about this, four burners theory, I guess, dovetails into what we're talking about here, where you use this to kinda think about what habits to pursue in any season of life, but also a phrase that I've heard, so often, specifically from mothers on the show, comes to mind, which is that you can't have it all at the same time.
我听到过这句话，我想，四五次了，尤其是不同的母亲说的，那就是……
And I've heard that, I think, four or five times different mothers in particular, which is...
我是说，这反映了社会的一些现象。
I mean, says something about society
她们跟我说过，她们不得不意识到自己不可能同时拥有一切。
Have said to me that they've had to realize that they can't have it all at the same time.
确实。
For sure.
所以这不是我提出的概念。
So this is not my concept.
这是我偶然发现的一个想法。
This is this idea that I came across.
它叫做“四个炉灶理论”。
It's called the four burners theory.
它把生活比作炉子上的四个炉灶。
And it breaks life into these four burners on a stove.
其中一个是工作和事业。
So you have work and career as one.
还有家庭、朋友，然后就是个人健康，或者说你自己，基本上就是另外那些。
You have family, friends, and then personal health or, you know, yourself basically as the other.
这个理论就是说，要让这些炉子真正烧得好，你不能同时把四个都打开。
The idea is that for the burners to really be going well, you can't have all four on at the same time.
炉子，就是那个灶台。
And burn it being stove.
灶台。
The stove.
灶台表面。
The stovetop.
所以你有……
So you you have...
你可以选择。
You can choose.
你可以让三个同时开着，但火力中等，但如果你真的想让它们都烧得好，你只能同时开两个。
You could have three going on at kind of like a mid level, but if you really want them to do well, you can only have two on at the same time.
而且，谁知道呢？
And, you know, who knows?
我也不确定这是不是真的，但这是个挺有意思的想法。
I I don't know if it's true or not or whatever, but it's an interesting idea.
它的作用就是让你意识到，对，生活的基本部分就是取舍，你不可能同时把所有事情都做好。
And what it does is it gets you to realize, yeah, a fundamental part of life is trade offs, and you cannot be good at everything at the same time.
这在项目上也是一样的。
So this is true across projects.
如果你试图同时做七件事，把自己分散到七个不同的方向，就很难做到出色。
If you choose try to do seven things at once, spreading yourself thin in seven different ways, very hard to be excellent.
对我来说，我想到的是，生活有一系列的季节，也有一系列的顺序。
For me, what I think about is life has a series of seasons and life has a series of sequences.
比如说，不一定总是整整十年，但我们可以说，生活中的重大变化大致是十年一个阶段，对吧？
So let's say, it's not always exactly ten years, but let's say the big movements in life are roughly ten year buckets, right?
就像我创立第一家公司，那差不多是十年的事情，最终促成了《掌控习惯》的出版。
So like for me building my first business, that was kind of like a ten year thing and eventually led to the launch of Atomic Habits.
成年后大概能有五六个这样的十年。
You maybe get five or six of those in your adult life.
有些事情放在不同的顺序做，效果会不一样。
Some of those things make sense to do in a different order than others.
比如你想环游世界、到处看看，去伊比萨岛狂欢，那大概不会等到六十多岁才去做。
Like if you want to travel the world and see a bunch of places and party in Ibiza, you're probably not going to do that in your sixties.
你知道，其实你也可以。
You know, like, I mean, you can.
没有……
There's no...
没人说你不能，但有些事情可能放在其他阶段做更合适。
Nobody's saying you can't, but some things are probably better sequenced in other, you know, in other spots.
显然，尤其是对女性来说，如果你想组建家庭，那在哪个十年做这件事是有一定限制的。
Obviously, there's, you know, especially for women, there's a certain limit on if you wanna have a family, what decades that happens in.
所以，对，这其实就是个顺序和优先级的问题。
So, yeah, it's just a it's just a matter of sequencing and prioritization.
如果你把人生看作一幅画卷，你希望那些重要的篇章是什么，而这些阶段又该在什么时候出现？
If you look at the, like, tapestry of your life, what do you want the big movements to be, and where do those seasons need to slot in?
这就像……
It's a it's a...
没有标准答案，但一旦你意识到时间是有限的，而且取舍总是不可避免的，你就必须想办法去面对。
There is no right answer, but it's interesting as soon as you realize it's a finite number and as soon as you realize that trade offs are always gonna be a reality, you have to deal with that in some way.
我已经决定了，趁现在孩子还小，我会把事业的节奏放慢一些。
I've decided that right now while my kids are young, like, I'm I'm gonna turn the career burner down.
这没什么不好。
And that's fine.
这不会像过去十年那样，但没关系，因为孩子五岁只有一次。
It's not gonna be how it was for the last ten years, but that's okay because they're only five once.
你明白吗？
You know?
他们六岁也只有一次。
They're only turning six once.
他们只会上一次二年级，我想全程陪伴他们。
They only go to second grade once, and I I wanna be there for all that.
所以总是有取舍的。
So there are always trade offs.
我觉得那个时间点非常非常有意思。
I think that that sequence point is super super interesting.
这让我思考，因为你说得对。
It got me thinking because you're right.
确实有一些限制，无论是生理上的，还是像你孩子这种情况，就是自然的限制，意味着这个阶段只能现在发生。
There are sort of some constraints whether they're biological constraints or in the case of your kids, like, just natural constraints that mean this this season can only happen now.
就是这里。
Here.
还有一些事情，比如，你知道，我们俩都是比较年轻的企业家。
There's also some things like, you know, both of us are fairly young entrepreneurs.
我很庆幸我在二十多岁的时候创业，而不是五十多岁。
I'm so glad that I started a business in my twenties rather than my fifties.
这并不意味着你五十多岁就不能做。
It doesn't mean you can't do it in your fifties.
没有……
There's no...
没人说你不能。
Nobody's saying you can't.
只是这样能让接下来的十年轻松很多。
It's just that it makes things a lot easier for the next decade.
你知道，我现在能陪孩子，是因为我掌控了自己的时间，而这得益于我前十年在事业上的努力。
You know, it's easier for me to be there for my kids now because I have control of my time because I did the business part in the previous decade.
所以风险就是……
So the risks.
而且这并不意味着一切都会顺利或者怎样。
And and that doesn't mean it's always gonna work out or whatever.
这也不意味着你能完美规划一切，但你就能看到这些阶段是如何这样叠加起来的。
It doesn't mean that you're gonna be able to perfectly plan it all, but you just see how the sequences can can stack up in that way.
那说到习惯，你觉得重复有多重要？
And how important do you think when we're talking about habits, do you think repetition is?
因为习惯养成方面有很多广为人知的概念或框架。
Because there's so many of these sort of well known concepts or frameworks in habit formation.
其中一个就是习惯大概需要六十六天才能养成。
One of them is that habits take roughly sixty six days.
还有一个就是重复很重要。
One of them is that it's about repetition.
重复真的那么关键吗？
Does repetition really matter?
当然重要。
It definitely does.
我是说，习惯就是靠重复形成的。
I mean, repetition is how habits form.
六十六天这个数字来自一项研究，研究发现平均需要大约六十六天才能养成一个习惯。
The sixty six days number comes from one study that came out that found that on average, it took about sixty six days to build a habit.
如果你去看那项研究，你会发现时间范围其实很广。
If you look at the study, the range is pretty wide.
如果你选的是很简单的事，比如每天午餐时喝一杯水，那可能只需要两三个星期就能养成。
So if you pick something really simple, like drinking a glass of water at lunch each day, that might only take two or three weeks to form.
但如果是比较复杂的事，比如每天下班后去跑步，那可能需要七八个月甚至九个月才能养成。
If you look at something more complicated, like going for a run after work every day, that might take seven or eight or nine months to form.
所以我觉得六十六天这个数字其实说明不了什么。
And so I don't know that sixty six days really tells you anything.
它只是告诉你，你的习惯需要多长时间才能固定下来。
It tell you that this is how long it's going to take for your habit to stick.
我的意思是，这个范围很广。
I mean, the range is wide.
有时候有人问我养成一个习惯需要多久，我的回答是永远。
Sometimes when people ask me how long does it take to form a habit, my answer is forever.
因为如果你不做了，那它就不再是习惯了。
Because if you stop doing it, then it's no longer a habit.
我想说的是，习惯并不是一条需要跨越的终点线。
And what I'm kind of getting at with that is that habits are not a finish line to be crossed.
它们是一种需要去践行的生活方式。
They're a lifestyle to be lived.
你明白吗？
You know?
所以我们对待习惯的方式，就好像它是一条终点线。
And so we approach our habits as if it's a finish line.
哦，让我做这个三十天的净化，然后我就会健康了。
Oh, let me do this thirty day cleanse and then I'll be healthy.
让我做这个九十天的冲刺，然后产品就会发货了。
Let me do this ninety day sprint and then the product will be shipped.
我就不用再担心了。
I won't have to worry about it anymore.
你明白吗？
You know?
而且就像生活中的大多数事情，尤其是那些重要的大事，都是没有尽头的。
And it's like most things in life, especially the big important things, they're endless.
它们是永无止境的战斗，你知道吗？
They're endless battles, you know?
所以，仅仅因为你昨天去了健身房，并不会为明天赢得任何加分。
So just because you went to the gym yesterday earns you no bonus points for tomorrow.
就像，你明天还是得出现。
Like, you still have to show up tomorrow.
仅仅因为你昨天是个好伴侣，并不会为明天赢得任何加分。
Just because you were a good spouse yesterday earns you no bonus points for tomorrow.
你还是得再次表现出爱和关心。
You still have to be loving and caring again.
所以，所有真正重要的事情都是永无止境的战斗，关键不在于跨过终点线，而在于过那种生活方式。
And so all the things that really matter are endless battles and it's not about crossing a finish line, it's about living that kind of lifestyle.
所以，是的，重复确实重要，而且是的，随着你重复得更多，习惯会变得更顺畅、更自动，也许更不费力。
And so yes, it is true that repetition matters and yes, it is true that the habits will become more seamless and automatic and maybe a little less effortful as you repeat them more.
但这并不意味着你以后就不用再考虑它们，或者再为它们担心了。
But that doesn't mean that you'll never have to think about them or, you know, worry about them again.
你觉得当重复发生时，大脑里到底发生了什么？
Do you think much about what's going on in the brain when repetition occurs?
是什么让事情变得更容易了？
Like, what is it that's making it easier?
如果我一直在坚持去健身房，连续去了六十天，为什么到了第六十一天感觉更轻松了？
If I've if I've been on a on a roll with the gym, I've been going for sixty days in a row, why does it feel easier on day 61?
这个问题有点棘手，因为如果你去问一个学者，他们会告诉你，习惯是一种自动的、无意识的行为，比如刷牙、系鞋带这种非常快速简单的事情。
That's a tricky question because if you were to talk to an academic and they would tell you, like, a habit is this automatic nonconscious behavior, really quick, simple things like brushing your teeth, tying your shoes.
每次你拿起烧烤夹，都要把它们敲两下，就是那种你根本不会去多想的事情，对吧？
Every time you pick up a pair of barbecue tongs, you gotta tap them together twice, you know, like stuff that you don't even really think about, okay?
那才是真正的习惯行为。
That's actual habitual behavior.
但如果我问你，你有没有在努力培养一些习惯？
But if I were to ask you, are some habits you're trying to build?
你会说，我打算每周去健身房四次，或者我打算每天早上写作，或者我打算每周冥想五天之类的。
You would say, I'm trying to go to the gym four days a week, or I'm trying to write every morning, or I'm trying to meditate five days a week or whatever.
你说这话的时候，我明白你的意思。
And I know what you mean when you say that.
你的意思是，我希望这能成为一种习惯，一种我能坚持的日常实践。
You mean, I want it to be this routine, this practice that I do consistently.
但每天写作永远不会像刷牙那样不用动脑。
But like writing every day is never going to be mindless the way that brushing your teeth is.
去健身房也不会像系鞋带那样自动发生。
Going to the gym is not going to be automatic the way that tying your shoes might be.
所以我们说的那些……
And so the things that we...
“习惯”这个词在我们日常生活中的用法有点模糊。
There's a little bit of sloppiness in the word habits and how we use it in life.
它不是……
It's not...
大多数时候，它们并不是那种自动的、不用动脑的日常习惯。
They're not automatic mindless routines most of the time.
我们想养成的大多数习惯，其实不像条件反射那样。
Most of the things that we want to be habits are not like reflexes.
它们是我们坚持去做的日常安排和仪式。
They're routines and rituals that we do consistently.
话虽如此，但你去健身房一两个月后，确实会开始觉得没那么难了。
So having said that, it is true that after you've gone to the gym for a month or two, it does start to get easier.
我觉得有很多因素在帮你。
And I think there's a number of forces that kind of work in your favor there.
一个是你已经搞清楚了很多关于去健身房的事情。
One is you figured a lot out about, what it takes to get into the gym.
我几点去？
What time am I going?
我走哪条路？
What route do I take?
我的包怎么收拾？
How do I pack my bag?
我需要带水瓶吗，还是健身房有饮水机？
Do I need to bring a water bottle or is there a water fountain at the gym?
所有这些小事都是刚开始需要搞清楚的一次性成本，一旦你形成了习惯，你就都知道了。
Like, all those sorts of things are little one time costs that you got to figure out early on that once you're into a pattern, you already know them.
你知道，水瓶这件事听起来是小事。
You know, the water bottle thing sounds like a small thing.
我听有人说，我总是忘记带水瓶，而且这个健身房没有饮水机。
I heard from someone who said, I always forget to bring my water bottle and they don't have water fountains at this gym.
所以有时候我就因为这个不去锻炼了。
So like, I sometimes I skip the workout because of that.
你知道，一点点小障碍就能让我们偏离轨道，这真是很惊人。
You know, it's like it's remarkable how little friction it takes to pull us off course.
所以把这些事情都搞清楚，一旦你坚持了一两个月，你就都搞定了……
And so figuring out all of those things is something that once you're a month or two in, you've crossed all...
你已经打过了那些仗，现在你知道该怎么做了。
You've, you know, you've fought all those battles and now you know how to do it.
所以这就容易多了。
So that makes it easier.
另外，你开始交到朋友。
The other thing is you start to build friendships.
你开始建立联系。
You start to build connections.
你开始认识那里的人。
You start to know the people there.
你在那里感到自在。
You feel comfortable there.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德提到过一个概念，就是说，如果你有一只狼，它在四处游荡，最终它会开始觉得那是自己的地盘。
There's this concept Steven Pressfield talks about where, you know, if you have a wolf and it's roaming around, eventually it starts to feel like it has its territory.
在创作过程的早期，比如写书什么的，你第一次走进办公室，准备写第一章的时候，你会觉得有点不自在。
And early on in the process, a creative process, writing a book or whatever, you go into the office the first time to write the first chapter of the book and you kind of feel uncomfortable.
感觉还不是你自己。
It feels like it's not you yet.
第一天去健身房，你会觉得别人在看你。
You go to the gym on the first day, you feel like people are judging you.
我看起来是不是很傻？
Do I look stupid?
我不知道该怎么做。
I don't know how to do this.
但过一段时间，那里就成了你的地盘。
But after a while, it becomes your territory.
就像那只狼一样。
It's just like the wolf.
开始觉得像自己的主场。
It starts to feel like your home court.
所以我觉得，这种熟悉感也会让坚持习惯变得容易得多。一旦你在那里感到自在，那需要一点时间。
And so that familiarity, I think also makes it much easier to stick to the habits, you know, once you start to feel comfortable there, and that takes a little bit of time.
最后一点就是身份认同。
And then the last piece is identity.
你越是开始坚持这个习惯，越是重复它，就越是在强化自己成为那种人的信念，也就越是在你的故事里加入这一部分。
The more that you start to follow this habit, the more you repeat a habit, the more you reinforce being that type of person, the more you start to have that element of your story.
我觉得这是养成习惯并让习惯坚持下去最重要的一点之一，也就是你的习惯如何强化你想要的自我形象。
I think this is one of the most important things for building habits and getting habits to stick, which is how your habits reinforce your desired identity.
我们常常一开始会问：我想要达成什么目标？
We often start by asking, what do I wish to achieve?
但我觉得我们真正应该先问的是：我想成为什么样的人？
But I think what we really should start with is who do I wish to become?
我的行为在强化什么？
What are my actions reinforcing?
我的行为在把我带向何方？
What are my actions taking me closer toward?
从某种意义上说，你做的每一个行动，都像是在为你想要成为的那种人投一票。
In a sense, every action you take is like a vote for the type of person you wish to become.
所以，做一次俯卧撑并不会改变你的身材，但它表明了你是一个不会错过锻炼的人。
So no, doing one push up does not transform your body, but it does cast a vote for I'm the type of person who doesn't miss workouts.
同样，写一句话并不会完成一本小说，但它表明了你是一个作家。
And no, writing one sentence does not finish a novel, but it does cast a vote for I'm a writer.
而且，发一条积极的反馈并不会让你成为世界上最好的领导者，但它表明了你是一个关心队友的领导者。
And no, sending one bit of positive feedback does not make you like the world's best leader, but it does cast a vote for I'm the type of leader who cares about their teammates.
单独来看，这些都是小事，但累积起来，你就建立了成为那种人的证据。
And individually, those are small things, but collectively, you build up this body of evidence for being that kind of person.
这和你经常听到的有点不同。
It's a little bit different than what you often hear.
比如，你常听人说：假装直到你做到。
Like you often hear people say something like, Fake it till you make it.
我对假装直到你做到并没有意见。
And I don't necessarily have anything wrong with fake it till you make it.
它只是让你相信一些关于自己的积极的事情。
Like it's asking you to believe something positive about yourself.
但行为和信念是双向的。
But behavior and beliefs are a two way street.
所以，你相信什么会影响你采取的行动，而你采取的行动也会影响你相信什么。
And so what you believe influences the actions you will take and the actions you take also influences what you will believe.
我的鼓励和建议是，从行动开始，让行为引领方向，打一个销售电话，或者冥想一分钟，或者做一个俯卧撑，让那一刻成为你是那种人的证据。
And my encouragement, my suggestion is to start with the action, to let the behavior lead the way, to make one sales call or meditate for one minute or do one push up and let that in that moment be evidence that you were that type of person.
如果你今天出去打五分钟篮球，你不会立刻想，哦，我是个篮球运动员。
If you go outside today and you shoot a basketball for five minutes, you don't instantly think, Oh, I'm a basketball player.
但如果你接下来三个月、六个月或一年每天都这么做，总有一天你会跨过那个无形的门槛，不得不承认，打篮球似乎是我身份中很重要的一部分。
But if you do it every day for next three months or six months or a year, at some point you cross this invisible threshold where you have to admit, I guess playing basketball is like kind of an important part of who I am.
你知道，我觉得这已经成为我身份的一部分了。
You know, I guess it's part of my identity.
一旦你把一个习惯融入你的故事，一旦它成为你如何看待自己的一部分，就不再只是我需要去跑步了。
And once you adopt a habit as part of your story, once it becomes part of how you see yourself, it's not just like I need to go for a run.
而是，我是个跑步者。
It's like, I'm a runner.
你知道，我会说……
You know, I go...
我这么做是因为这就是我的一部分。
I do this because this is part of who I am.
然后你就会努力去维持这个习惯，对吧？
Then you'll fight to maintain the habit, Right?
这样一来，坚持下来就变得更容易了。
Like, then then it becomes easier for it to stick.
所以，习惯和身份之间的联系，我觉得，最终才是让习惯长期坚持下来的关键。
And so the connection between habits and identity, think, is ultimately how you really get habits to stick for the long run.
这让我想起最近读的一项研究，它说如果你用身份认同的方式跟人说话，而不是用形容词，行为就会跟着改变。
It reminds me of a study I was reading recently that said if you speak to someone in terms of giving them an identity versus using a word as an adjective, the behavior cursor.
举个例子，如果我对……
An example would be, if I...
你帮我做了件事，然后我说，你知道吗，詹姆斯？
You do something for me and I say, do you know what, James?
关于 Bayt 播客
Bayt 提供中文+原文双语音频和字幕，帮助你打破语言障碍，轻松听懂全球优质播客。