人类测谎仪：他们对你撒谎的#1迹象，瞬间识破谎言！| 莉安·滕布林克博士

对。

Yes.

没错。

Exactly.

我觉得更广泛的发现是，与其试图把所有那些大多没用的细微线索拼凑起来，不如专注于一个有效的线索。

I think the broader finding is just that it is better to focus on one cue that works than to try to put together all of these, like, little cues that mostly don't work at all.

好的。

Okay.

对。

Yeah.

那第三个呢？

And the third one there?

第三个，我们其实已经稍微提到过了，就是明显的认知努力。

The third one, you know, we've kind of touched on, but it's just visible cognitive effort.

所以所有这些，你知道，人们需要编造出来的细节，真的很难做到。

So all of this stuff, you know, the details that people need to come up with is really hard to do.

对吧？

Right?

而且他们可能说话很慢。

And they might be speaking really slowly.

他们可能会用很多“嗯”“啊”“呃”之类的词。

They might be using lots of ums and ahs and erhs.

他们可能会皱起眉头，努力想搞清楚事情。

They might be kind of like furrowing their brow trying to figure things out.

再说一次，重要的是要记住，你停顿的原因可能有千万种，不一定和撒谎有关，对吧？

Again, it's important to remember that like, you could pause for a million different reasons that are not deception related, right?

你可能只是努力回忆某件事。

You could just be trying to remember something.

你皱眉头可能是因为，我不知道，额头痒，或者别的什么。

You could be furrowing your brow because, I don't know, your forehead's itchy, whatever.

所以这些都不是匹诺曹的鼻子，但它们确实和欺骗有关。

So none of these are Pinocchio's nose, but they are reliably associated with deception.

那肢体语言呢？

What about body language?

大家总是谈论肢体语言。

People always talk about body language.

对。

Mhmm.

人们对肢体语言非常看重，尤其是目光回避。

People put a lot of stock into body language, particularly into like gaze aversion.

如果你去世界各地问人们，别人对你说谎时最明显的信号是什么，他们会说是眼神飘忽不定。

So if you go around the world and you ask people, what's the number one cue that someone is lying to you, they will say sketchy eye contact.

但没有研究表明这是真的。

And there's no research to suggest that that is true.

如果你稍微想一想，这其实很有道理。

And if you think about it for like a hot second, it makes so much sense.

对吧？

Right?

因为我有时候会说谎。

Because I sometimes tell a lie.

你有时候也会说谎。

You sometimes tell a lie.

我们都知道那个刻板印象，说谎的人不敢直视你的眼睛。

We all know the stereotype that liars can't look you in the eye.

所以如果我想让你相信我，我就会确保控制好自己的眼神接触。

So if I want you to believe me, I'm gonna make sure I control my eye contact.

对吧？

Right?

而这正是我们完全可以控制的事情。

And that's something that's that's well under our control.

而且还有神经多样性之类的情况，这意味着有些有某些神经多样性特征的人会难以进行眼神接触，但这并不一定意味着他们在说谎。

And there's neurodivergence and things like that, which means that some people who have sort of certain neurodiversities struggle with eye contact, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they're lying.

完全正确。

Exactly.

所以有一些新兴的研究表明，自闭症谱系的人更容易被认为在撒谎，而实际上他们说的是真话，这是因为人们把眼神接触当作欺骗的线索，但实际上这与欺骗无关。

So there's some emerging research to suggest that people who are on the autism spectrum are perceived as lying more, when they're actually telling the truth, and that's because of this eye contacting, which people are using as a cue to deception, but in fact, is unrelated to deception.

而且，还有文化差异。

I mean, there's also, like, cultural differences.

对吧？

Right?

在某些文化里，不看对方的眼睛反而更尊重。

In some cultures, it's more respectful, like, not to look at you in the eye.

所以这也可能导致我们判断上的失误。

And so that can also lead to kind of errors in our judgment.

还有那种黑暗人格特质，我经常听到这个说法。

And there's this sort of dark personality trait, here thing I hear a lot.

是因为那个三元组吗？

Is it is it because of triad?

他们指的是那个三元组。

It They refer to It was a triad.

好的。

Okay.

现在变成了四合一。

Now we get a tetrad.

好的。

Okay.

所以这就是现在的情况吗？

So is that what this is?

是的。

Yes.

好的。

Okay.

对。

Yeah.

如果你想一个一个地揭示每个是什么。

So if you wanna reveal what each of those is one at a time.

比如说，精神病态。什么是精神病态？

Psychopathy, for example What is psychopathy?

精神病态是一种人格特质的集合。

Psychopathy is a constellation that is a a set of personality traits.

所以它不只是一方面的问题。

So it's not just one thing.

他们通常有一种表面的魅力。

They're having kind of a superficial charm.

他们很会操控别人，而且往往自视甚高。

They're quite manipulative, and they tend to be pretty grandiose.

也就是说，他们对自己的看法非常膨胀。

So they've got a pretty inflated view of themselves.

还有情感方面的因素。

There's also emotional components.

他们的情感体验通常很浅，伤害别人后不会感到悔恨或内疚，而且往往不愿为自己的行为负责。

So they tend to have pretty shallow emotional experiences, a lack of remorse, and guilt for harming other people, and they tend not to take responsibility for their own actions.

另外，他们往往相当冲动。

In addition, they tend to be, pretty impulsive.

所以他们基本上是走一步算一步，不会真正为长远做打算。

So they are kind of living life by the seat of their pants, and they're not really planning far out into the future.

所以他们可能会靠家人或伴侣养活。

And so they might of mooch off of family members or a romantic partner.

最后，他们经常违反很多规则。

And then lastly, they tend to break a lot of rules.

这可能只是职场规则或社会规范，但精神病态的研究大多集中在犯罪人群上。

So this might be just like workplace rules or social norms, but psychopathy has largely been studied in, criminal populations.

所以这也可能指法律。

So this could also be laws.

所谓的“黑暗四人格”中另外三种人格特质与精神病态有一些共同点，但也有各自独特的表现。

The the other three of the so called Dark Tetrad share some elements, but also have some, like, unique flavors.

好的。

Okay.

接下来我们要说的是马基雅维利主义。

So the next one we've got here is Machiavellianism.

这个呢，是以尼科洛·马基雅维利命名的，他写了《君主论》，这本书有点像一本教你如何有效获取和运用权力的操作手册。

And that is, you know, named after Niccolo Machiavelli who wrote, the prince, which is a kind of a how to manual to, like, gain and wield power effectively.

所以作为一种人格特质，这种人通常对别人相当 cynical，就是很 cynical。

So as a personality trait, well, they tend to be pretty cynical about other people.

他们爱撒谎，而且会试图操纵别人。

They tell a lot of lies, and they try to, like, manipulate people.

但更像是三维象棋那种感觉。

But it's more like three-dimensional chess.

你懂吧？

You know?

比如，他们可能会从你身上打听到一点小八卦，史蒂文。

Like, they might learn a little tidbit about you, Steven.

然后他们会说，你知道吗？

They'll be like, you know what?

我以后可以用这个来对付他。

I could use that against him later.

我就先把这个记在心里。

I'm just gonna, like, put that in my back pocket.

然后，将来我需要操控你或者威胁你的时候，对吧，他们就能用上这个。

And, you know, when I need to manipulate or, like, a blackmail you in the future, right, they'll have that available to them.

所以他们对权力非常感兴趣，这当然也是这个名字的由来。

So this is they're very interested in power, which of course is where the name comes from.

接下来是自恋。

Next one is narcissism.

这个大家应该都很熟悉。

You know, that's one that people know pretty well.

对吧？

Right?

这些人通常觉得自己很有特权，而且为了得到他们认为自己应得的东西，非常愿意利用别人。

So these are people who tend to be very entitled, and they're very willing to exploit other people in order to get what they think they deserve.

对吧？

Right?

所以就是那种特别执着地只关注自己。

So it's like very relentless kind of self focus.

这个词在文化里用得挺多的。

This word has been used quite a lot in culture.

嗯哼。

Uh-huh.

到处都在用。

It's thrown around all the time.

一直不停。

Constantly.

对。

Yes.

你怎么看这个？

What's your view of that?

我是说，自恋，就像所有这些特质一样，是有一个连续谱的。

I mean, narcissism, like all of these traits, exists on a continuum.

好的。

Okay.

对吧？

Okay?

所以，你或者任何人，包括我自己，都可以通过一个自我报告量表来测量我具备这些特质的程度，对吧？

So you or anyone else, myself, could take a measure, a self report measure of the extent to which I have these traits, right?

你的得分可以从非常低到非常高。

And you can land anywhere from very low to very high.

其中一些特质，比如自恋，在极高的那一端，实际上对应着一种人格障碍的诊断。

Now, some of these traits, narcissism being one of them, actually has a there's a personality disorder diagnosis at the incredibly high end.

对吧？

Right?

所以这出现在《精神障碍诊断与统计手册》里，那基本上就是一份各种精神障碍的清单。

So this appears in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, which is basically like a list of different mental disorders.

你可以去看心理医生或精神科医生，他们可以评估你，如果你有极端的自恋倾向，他们可以给你诊断。

You could go to a psychologist or psychiatrist, they could assess you and diagnose you if you have like extreme levels of narcissism.

但是，人们的情况各不相同。

But, like, people land everywhere.

对吧？

Right?

所以我觉得问题的一部分在于，人们会说，哦，她是个自恋狂。

So I think part of the problem is that people say, oh, she's a narcissist.

对吧？

Right?

他是个自恋狂。

He's a narcissist.

他们是自恋狂还是精神病态者？

Are they a narcissist or a psychopath?

然后他们就在那里做了这种非常二元化的区分。

And they make this kind of very binary distinction there.

对吧？

Right?

我觉得我对这些词有些保留意见，原因有好几个。

I guess I have qualms with those words for a couple of different reasons.

你知道，这些都是连续分布的。

You know, these exist on a continuum.

没有明确的，比如

There's no clear, like

一个节点，让你变成

Moment where it becomes

一个节点，让你变成自恋者还是不是自恋者。

moment where it becomes you are a narcissist versus not a narcissist.

所以就像其他所有特质一样，这么说有点拗口，但我觉得更准确的说法是，他们有相对较高的自恋或反社会人格特质，或者别的什么情况。

And so as with all of these other traits, it's a bit of a mouthful, but I think it's more accurate to say they they have relatively high levels of narcissism or psychopathy or or whatever the case is.

你刚才说自恋者主要有两种类型。

And you said that there's two main types of narcissist.

对。

Yeah.

所以现在人格心理学家越来越多地识别出这种脆弱型和自大狂型。

So increasingly, personality psychologists are identifying this kind of vulnerable type and a a grandiose type.

自大狂型就是我们都很熟悉的那种，就是他们特别自负。

And so grandiose is like one that we all know well, where it's like, they've got this ego.

而且自负得不得了。

And it's huge.

简直戳不破。

It, like, cannot be popped.

对吧？

Right?

就是他们收到负面反馈，但什么都听不进去，总觉得自己应该当头儿，等等。

It's like, they get this negative feedback, and it's like nothing gets through to them, and they always think they should be the one in charge, etcetera.

这类人特别容易因为自尊心受到威胁而暴怒，比如他们想要升职却没得到。

For those individuals, they tend to get very angry, with a particular kind of threat to their ego, and that is like a failure to like, they wanted this, promotion at work.

他们没得到。

They didn't get it.

对。

Mhmm.

脆弱型的人实际上自尊心非常脆弱。

Vulnerable individuals actually have kind of a very fragile ego.

有意思。

Interesting.

对。

Mhmm.

所以基本上很容易被戳破。

So it can be popped very easily, essentially.

所以如果他们从别人那里得到负面反馈，比如被社交排斥，那时他们就会变得非常生气。

So if they get negative feedback from people, maybe they get, like, socially rejected, that's when they become quite angry.

那对他们来说更是一个触发点。

That's more of a trigger for them.

那你说的“愤怒”是不是这两种自恋者都会有的反应？

And is it you using the word angry as the outcome of both those types of narcissists?

对。

Mhmm.

但我想，光从字面上看，大家可能会觉得脆弱型自恋者会更难过，或者更自我批评之类的。

But I guess one would assume that maybe just from the wording that a vulnerable narcissist would get more upset or more self critical or something like that.

至少研究关注的是面对这类威胁时的愤怒反应。好。

The research at least was focused on on anger in response to these kinds of threats Okay.

就是威胁到他们自尊的时候。

To their ego.

但当然，情绪上会很激烈，像要吵架一样。

But certainly emotional, you know, like combative.

你知道，这时候你就会得到非常负面的回应。

You know, this is when you're gonna get, like, a really negative response.

比如，一个两种自恋程度都不高的人，可能能接受这样的反馈，比如“我觉得第二次约会不太合适”。

Like, someone who, is relatively low on narcissism of both kinds, you know, could take that kind of feedback that, like, no, I don't think a second date is really for us.

对吧？

Right?

比如，有脆弱型自恋的人就会反应很糟糕。

Like, someone with vulnerable narcissism is going to respond badly.

你知道我为什么问这个问题吗？

Do you know why asked the question?

只是因为我一个朋友，前几天我们采访一个人时聊到的。

It's just a friend of mine because of a conversation I was having the other day where we were interviewing someone.

嗯。

Mhmm.

在采访过程中，他们很快就声称自己所在公司做的所有事情都是他们的功劳。

And during the interview process, they were very quick to say to claim credit for, like, all of the things the company they worked at had done.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而且他们也很喜欢说自己什么都擅长。

And they were also very quick to say that they were, like, good at everything.

就连我走出房间的时候，我还问他们，能不能在那个特定的应用上给他们发消息？

Even as I walked out the room with them and I said, oh, can you can I message you on this particular app?

他们说，那个应用我玩得特别溜。

They said, I'm amazing at that app.

再说一遍，我在匿名化处理，所以很多细节都稍微改了一下。

Again, I'm ano anonymizing, so a lot of this is slightly changed.

我走出房间的时候，奇怪的是，虽然我这些年面试过成千上万的人，我心里却想，他们人真好。

And I walked out of the room weirdly, having interviewed thousands and thousands of people over the years, thinking to myself, they were so lovely.

但给我的感觉是，这更多是出于一种不安全感。

But it felt to me like it was more coming from a place of insecurity.

对。

Mhmm.

当你看看他们的经历，你会发现这是一个一直被人低估、错过机会的人，他们几乎有点急于证明自己，好像肩膀上扛着一种负担。

And when you look at their story, it's a story of someone who has been continually counted out, overlooked for opportunities, and almost has this a bit of a chip on their shoulder to try and be prove themselves.

对。

Mhmm.

现在，我觉得换一个人看到同样的行为模式，可能会说，哦，那个丈夫是个自恋狂。

Now when I another person, I think, would look at that same pattern of behavior and say, oh, that that husband's a narcissist.

所以，当我想到脆弱型自恋和那种自大型自恋时，我在想这是否跟我说的有关，比如——

So when I had vulnerable narcissist versus this sort of grandiose one, I was wondering if is at all linked to what I'm saying, like

对于脆弱型自恋，他们对这种拒绝反应如此糟糕的原因，是因为他们需要别人不断的赞美和正面反馈来维持他们的自尊心。

For vulnerable narcissism, the reason that they would respond so poorly to this kind of rejection is that they need kind of constant admiration and positive feedback from other people to keep their ego, like, going.

我打电话给这个人的前雇主要推荐信，他们提到他的一句话是，他总是需要一颗金星。

I I called this person's former employer to get a reference, and they said about him that one of the quotes was he always needs a gold star.

对。

Mhmm.

在这方面，深层的不安全感和自恋有什么区别？

What's the difference between deep insecurity and narcissism in this regard?

深层的不安全感需要伴随着那种 entitlement，就是那种觉得自己理应得到什么的感觉。

The deep insecurity, it would need to be coupled with these, like, entitlement.

比如，仍然有一种自大的自我认知。

Like, there's still a grandiose sense of self.

只是这种自信相当脆弱。

It's just that it is quite fragile.

所以他们觉得自己很厉害，而且愿意利用别人来得到他们认为自己应得的东西。

So they're like they they think they're really good, and they're willing to exploit other people to get what they think they deserve.

他们可能还会觉得自己受了委屈。

And they may feel like they've been victimized.

对吧？

Right?

这就是为什么他们没得到所有他们认为自己应得的赞誉。

And that's why they haven't gotten all of the accolades that they think they deserve.

我觉得不管这个人处于这个谱系的哪个位置，他们可能仍然拥有非常出色的技能。

Now I think kind of regardless of where this person, you know, sits on this continuum, you know, they might still have, like, incredible skills.

他们可能具备你正在寻找的能力。

They might have the abilities that you're looking for.

所以问题是，这是你能应付的，还是会造成麻烦？

And so is this something you can manage, or is this going to create problems?

我完全没有感觉到他们觉得自己很了不起，或者会利用别人。

I didn't get any sense that they were entitled or that they would use other people Mhmm.

来为自己谋利。

To their advantage.

我得到的印象是，大家普遍会喜欢他们。

I I got the impression that people would generally like them

嗯。

Mhmm.

而且他们一点都不觉得自己了不起。

And that they weren't entitled at all.

但他们确实有一些自我推销的特质。

But they still had these sort of sort of self promotional traits.

我觉得在社会上，一旦有人过于自我推销，我们就会立刻把他们归为自恋者，但其实也可能是其他原因，我猜是这样。

And I think in society, the minute someone's, like, overly self promotional, we run to the sort of narcissist category versus it could be other things, I'm presuming.

是的。

Yes.

我觉得在这种情况下，对吧，你也得对当时的处境保持一定的警觉。

I mean, I think in that situation, right, you need to be quite mindful of the situation as well.

对吧？

Right?

就像，我们的行为其实是性格和所处环境共同作用的结果。

Like, our behavior is kind of a combination of both our personality and the situation that we're in.

所以如果你在面试，你的目标就是向别人展示，我能胜任这份工作。

And so if you're at a job interview, like, your whole goal is to show people, like, I can do this job.

我有你需要的技能。

I've got the skills that you need.

所以在面试中，我们可能会显得更自信，更——你知道的——我们会把自己最好的一面展现出来。

And so in a job interview, we might kind of come across as, a more confident, more you know, we're we're presenting ourselves in the best possible light.

但我觉得我们很容易就急着给人下性格判断。

But I think we're very quick to rush to a personality assessment.

这叫做基本归因错误。

It's called the, fundamental attribution error.

所以，当我看到某人以某种方式行事，比如他们可能是在自我推销，说自己能做得多好，我就会想，哦，这人真自恋。

So it's like when I see someone behave in a particular way, like they're they're maybe being self promoting, saying all the things that they can do really well, I could be like, oh, that's narcissistic.

对吧？

Right?

那是一种性格特质。

That's a personality trait.

对。

Mhmm.

而且我们往往更容易对别人这样评价。

And we tend to be more likely to do that to others.

但如果换作是我，我会说，我只是想向史蒂文展示我能做什么。

But if I was in their shoes, I would be like, I was just trying to show Steven, like, what I could do.

是环境让我表现得有点自不量力。

It's the situation that made me act kind of bigger than my britches.

对吧？

Right?

对。

Yeah.

所以我们也要意识到，情境会影响我们的行为，所以不要急于把情境能解释的行为归因为性格特质。

So we need to also be aware of, like, the situation can impact our behavior, and so we wanna be not too quick to make a personality attribution where the situation could explain that.

这里可能很重要的一点是，性格是一种持续的思维、感受和行为模式。

And that's maybe a really important point to make here is that personality is a consistent pattern of thinking, feeling, and behaving

明白。

Mhmm.

这种模式会随着时间推移，并在不同情境中保持一致。

Over time and across context.

所以如果你只和这个人有过一次互动，那你就只有一次互动的了解。

So if you've only got one interaction with this person, you've only got one interaction with this person.

你可能会对TA的性格有个初步印象，但如果你看到TA和朋友或家人在一起，TA可能就不会那么爱炫耀了。

You probably get a sense of their personality, but you might see them, you know, out with their friends or with their family, and they might be they might not be kinda so boastful.

对吧？

Right?

这可能说明，这其实是情境在起作用，而不是性格本身。

And that might suggest that this is really the situation talking, not the personality.

在自恋方面，男性和女性有什么差异？你提到了两种不同类型的自恋，脆弱型自恋和浮夸型自恋。

What are the gender differences in narcissism in terms of both different types of narcissism you mentioned, vulnerable narcissism and also grandiose narcissism?

然后我猜，我们在识别这些行为的能力上可能也存在一些性别差异。

And then I guess there might be some other gender differences in our ability to, like, spot these behaviors.

说到我们讨论的这些特质，男性往往比女性得分稍高，这是一个相当一致的发现。

So when it comes to all of these traits that we're talking about, men tend to score somewhat higher than women, and that's a quite a consistent finding.

这并不是说女性不可能在这些特质上得分很高。

That is not to say that women cannot score, like, very high on these traits.

确实有这种情况，而且重叠的部分也不少。

There are certainly cases and there's quite a bit of overlap.

但平均来看，男性的平均水平往往高于女性。

But on average, you know, the averages for men tend to be higher than the averages for women.

还有第四块砖。

And there's a fourth brick.

这是最新的一种，也就是施虐癖。

That's the the newest and latest one, which is sadism.

听到施虐癖，你可能会想到非常极端的情况。

When you hear sadism, you might jump to, like, pretty extreme.

对。

Yeah.

我想到的是那种恶魔之类的。

Was thinking of, like, the devil and stuff.

我知道。

I know.

对。

Yeah.

其实我最初是在研究性谋杀案件时开始关注施虐行为的。

I mean, I first started studying sadistic behavior in the context of, like, sexual homicides.

我当时翻阅那些犯罪行为的描述，寻找对受害者施虐的迹象。

Like, I was reading through these descriptions of criminal behavior, and I was looking for signs of sadistic treatment of the victim.

所以，它可以变得极其极端。

So it's like, it can get incredibly extreme.

对吧？

Right?

这大概就是我们的第一反应。

And that's probably where our mind goes.

但其实也有一些更日常的版本。

But there's also like kind of more everyday versions.

一个很好的例子就是网络喷子。

One good example is like online trolling.

我们知道，那些施虐倾向比较高的人，往往会从别人的痛苦中获得快感。

So we know that people who are relatively high in sadism tend to they they take pleasure in other people's pain.

对吧？

Right?

所以你可以用极其残忍、恐怖的方式去做，也可以只是在网上故意挑衅别人，让人生气。

And so you could do that in incredibly, like, gruesome, horrifying ways, or you could just be, pushing people's buttons online trying to get people upset.

它们都共同具备三个特点。

They all share kind of three things.

它们都冷酷无情，不在乎别人。

They are callous, so they don't care about other people.

它们不在乎你的感受或你的结果。

They don't care about your your feelings or your outcomes.

它们善于操控，愿意撒谎和欺骗来得到想要的，而且对他人充满敌意。

They're manipulative, so they're willing to lie and cheat to get what they want, and they're hostile toward other people.

所以这差不多就是所有这些特质的核心。

So that's kind of like the core of all of these traits.

这就是它们的共同点。

That's what they share.

表面现象。

Facades.

对。

Mhmm.

他们擅长隐藏这些特质吗？

Are they good at hiding it?

是的。

Yes.

实际上，一些最早关于精神病态的描写，特别是把它描述成一种“理智的面具”。

In fact, some of the, like, earliest descriptions of psychopathy in particular described it as like a mask of sanity.

所以，他们表面上看起来挺正常的，但如果你深入了解，就会发现他们运行的系统和你的不一样。

And so it's like they can seem quite kind of normal on the surface, but if you kind of get a look underneath the hood, you see that they're not running the same kind of operating system that you are.

这些特质的反面是什么？

What is the inverse of all this stuff?

因为我们指出了这些特质，其中很多是大家理解的。

Because we've pointed at the traits, and a lot of those are things people understand.

对。

Mhmm.

但也有一些误解。

But there's also some misconceptions.

对。

Mhmm.

还有相反的说法，比如人们觉得自恋者或精神病患者不敢直视别人的眼睛，这是你经常听到的一种。

There's also the opposite, which is like, people think narcissists or psychopaths can't hold eye contact is one of the ones you hear all the time.

通过你的研究，有哪些说法是你能够证明是不真实的？

What are some of these ones that through your research, you've been able to debunk as not being true?

我觉得最大的一个误区是，所有高精神病态水平的人都是暴力的，但事实完全不是这样。

So I think one of the biggest ones is that all people with high levels of psychopathy are violent, and that's absolutely not the case.

这跟你发的这条推文有点关联。

So it kinda links to your your tweet here.

是的。

Yeah.

大多数人觉得精神病患者看起来很危险。

So most people think a psychopath looks dangerous.

他们想象的是电影里的反派，但现实生活并不是这样。

They picture the villain in a movie, but that's not how it works in real life.

所以你大概注意到了，在我刚才那段关于精神病态的描述里，虽然讲得有点长，但提到了四个不同的要素，其中确实有违反规则这一点。

So you probably noticed that, like, in that description that I gave you, kind of a long winded description of psychopathy with all those four different elements, I did say that there was rule breaking.

对吧？

Right?

嗯。

Uh-huh.

有时候这种违反规则是犯罪性质的。

And sometimes that's criminal rule breaking.

所以可能涉及暴力行为，但也不一定。

So that could be violent behavior, but it's not necessarily so.

所以精神病态是暴力行为的一个风险因素，但有很多人得分相对较高，却从不参与暴力行为。

So psychopathy is like a risk factor for violent behavior, but there's plenty of people who would score relatively highly and and never engage in violent behavior.

他们可能以其他方式违反规则。

They might break rules in other ways.

对吧？

Right?

所以我觉得，每当听到“精神病态”这个词，大家脑子里浮现的可能是像泰德·邦迪那样的人。

So I think whenever we hear the word psychopathy, what comes to mind is like a Ted Bundy.

对吧？

Right?

泰德·邦迪那种类型的人物。

Ted Bundy type character.

据说他在精神病态检查表修订版上得了39分，满分40分左右。这个检查表是心理学家用来评估一个人精神病态程度的工具。

He reportedly scored, I think, 39 out of 40 or something on the psychopathy checklist revised, which is a measure that, psychologists will use to assess how psychopathic someone is.

所以，是的，他算是这些特质的一个典型代表，但当然，也有人得分很高，却并不是连环杀手。

So, yeah, he's a bit of a poster boy, for for those traits, but, certainly people can score highly without being, you know, a serial murderer.

从拥有这些黑暗人格特质的人口比例来看，是的。

In terms of the the the amount of the population that have one of these dark personality traits Yep.

具体数字是多少？

What are what are the numbers?

有多常见？

How common is it?

这个问题比较复杂，因为就像我跟你说的，这些特质都是连续分布的。

So this is a complicated question because as I told you, you know, all these traits exist on a continuum.

所以，我们说有多少人具备这些特质，取决于你设定的那个临界点在哪里。

So the proportion of people that we say are high on these traits depends on where you put that cut point.

对吧？

Right?

对。

Mhmm.

如果我们说的是临床级别的精神病态，那意味着在精神病态检查表修订版上得分达到30分或以上。

If we're talking about psychopathy and clinical levels, that means, a score of thirty out of forty on the psychopathy checklist revised or higher.

这大约占人口的百分之一。

That's about one percent of the population.

自恋型人格障碍，也就是那些特质极端到足以诊断的程度，大概是百分之二到五。

Narcissistic personality disorder, so again, very extreme levels of those traits, enough to warrant a diagnosis, that would be two to five percent.

对于施虐癖和马基雅维利主义，我们没有临床上的临界值。

We don't have clinical cutoffs for sadism and Machiavellianism.

我们有的是大量完成过自我报告问卷的人的数据。

What we do have is a ton of data of people who have completed self report questionnaires.

所以，一种了解有多少人具有这些特质的方法，就是看平均有多少人同意这些条目。

So like one way that you can kind of, get a sense of how many people are high on these traits is by looking at the proportion of people who on average agree with the items.

比如，如果我说，我天生就是领导者。

Like, if I say, I am a born leader.

对。

Mhmm.

你在多大程度上同意这句话？

To what extent do you agree with that?

这是自恋的一个条目。

That's a narcissism item.

如果你说，是的。

If you say, yeah.

我同意。

I agree with that.

你在多大程度上会说你喜欢看到别人受伤？

To what extent do you say, you like to see other people get hurt?

比如说，这不成立。

Say it doesn't trade.

对。

Yeah.

我同意这个说法。

I agree with that.

对吧？

Right?

所以，如果只看那些平均同意我们用来自我报告评估这些特质的项目的人，大约占人口的百分之十。

So if you just look at the people who on average agree with the items that we use to self report, assess, these traits, it's about ten percent of the population.

那这从哪来的呢？

And where where does this come from?

这是来自童年创伤吗？

Is this, is this does this come from childhood trauma?

当你看到你面前这些照片里的人，你觉得他们的反社会、黑暗三角或黑暗人格行为是从哪里来的？

When you think about some of these, you know, these individuals you have on these photos in front of you here, where do you think the antisocial or dark triad or dark personality behavior stems from?

对。

Mhmm.

是童年发生了什么吗？

Is it something happened in their childhood?

是基因吗？

Is it genetics?

还是别的原因？

Is it something else?

答案是两者都有。

The answer is both.

研究表明，就精神病态和自恋而言，情况非常相似。

So the research suggests that, with respect to psychopathy, narcissism quite similar.

一个人在这项人格特质上的得分差异，大约50%来自基因，另外50%来自环境经历。

The variation in someone's score, on that personality trait is about 50% genetic and about 50% environmental experiences.

所以，你知道，这在某种程度上让我们意识到，这些人并不是自己选择变成这样的，因为，我是说，你没法选择自己的父母，所以你也没法选择自己的基因。

And so, you know, it can in some ways make us realize that these people didn't ask to be this way because, I mean, you don't get to choose your parents, so you're you don't get to choose your genetics.

而说到那些环境经历，通常都是早期的生活经历，而且往往不是什么好的经历。

And then when it comes to those environmental experiences, often they're like early life experiences and not good ones.

所以研究表明，你知道，童年时期遭受虐待，或者父母非常冷漠、缺乏关爱，都会增加日后表现出更高水平这些特质的可能性。

So research suggests that, you know, abuse, really kind of cold, uncaring parenting style early in life can increase the likelihood that someone will have higher levels of these traits later in life.

对于自恋来说，另一个变量是，比如童年时期被过度高估，可能会让一个人日后变得更自恋。

For narcissism, another variable is like overvaluation of, a child early in life may lead to more narcissistic Does that mean later.

过度高估。

Overevaluation.

有一项研究。

So there's one study.

那是一项纵向研究，他们问父母，比如，他们告诉孩子“你很特别”的程度。

It was a longitudinal study, and they asked parents, like, the extent to which they, you know, told their kids, like, you're special.

你比其他孩子更好。

You're, like, better than other kids.

孩子越是得到这种反馈，以后就越可能变得更自恋。

And the more the kids got that kind of feedback, the more likely they were to be more narcissistic later down the road.

他们觉得自己很特别。

Like they thought they were exceptional.

他们觉得自己有权得到别人得不到的东西。

They thought they were entitled to things that other people were not entitled to.

这和自尊不一样。

And that's different than self esteem.

我们希望孩子有高自尊。

We want our kids to have high self esteem.

我们希望他们知道自己被关心、有价值。

We want them to know that they are, you know, cared for and worthy.

这来自不同的东西。

That comes from something different.

这来自温暖、回应式的养育方式。

That comes from, like, a warm, responsive parenting styles.

在那个状态下，我在想因果关系。

In that state, I was I was thinking about causation.

我在想，如果父母本身有自恋的基因倾向，他们会不会因此对孩子说很多好话？

And I was wondering if if the parents themselves had a genetic disposition to be narcissistic, is it conceivable that they then spoke highly to their children?

对。

Yep.

实际上，也许不是养育方式的问题，而是他们的天性。

And actually, maybe it wasn't the the the nurturing part, it was their nature.

那个孩子也遗传了父母的基因，而父母有倾向告诉孩子他们是最棒的。

I that child also shared the genetics as the parent who had the proclivity to tell them that they were the most amazing thing ever.

是的。

Yeah.

你明白我的意思吗？

Does that make sense?

完全明白。

Totally.

我主要是从精神病态的角度来想这个问题的，有时候你会遇到那种各种因素凑在一起的情况。

I mean, mostly I I think about this in the context of psychopathy where, sometimes you've got, like, a perfect storm.

对吧？

Right?

比如，可能有个家长这些特质特别突出，所以他们就把那种潜在的遗传风险因素传给了孩子。

So, like, you might have a parent who has really high levels of these traits, so they're passing on that potential genetic risk factor.

但如果家里有个冷酷、爱操控、冲动的人，想维持一个比较稳定的家庭生活就特别难。

But if you've got someone, you know, a parent in your household who is callous, manipulative, impulsive, it's gonna be very difficult to maintain, like, a pretty stable home life Mhmm.

对孩子来说。

For that child.

所以孩子可能会经历一些那种冷漠的养育方式，这些也是后来发展成精神病态的环境风险因素。

And so they might end up experiencing, you know, some of those, like, and and cold kind of parenting styles that are also environmental risk factors for developing psychopathy later in life.

所以他们就像是双重打击。

So they kinda get like a a double whammy.

根据你做的所有研究，对黑暗人格特质和自尊等的研究，有没有什么办法可以提高一个人成为好父母的概率？

From all the research you've done and all the studying of these dark personality traits you've done and self esteem and everything in between, is there any way to increase one's probability of being a good parent?

就是说，从你看到的所有这些来看，正确的做法是什么？

Like, what like, from everything you've seen, what is the, like, right approach?

我知道这很难说，因为每个孩子都不一样。

I know that's a that's a difficult thing to say because kids are all different.

但是

But

我的意思是，就是回应式的养育方式。

I mean, and responsive parenting.

就是当你看到那些表现出冷酷无情早期迹象的孩子时，这种治疗方式似乎是有效的。

Is it like when you look at treatment for kids who are showing early warning signs of these callous and unemotional traits, that's the treatment that seems to work.

其实，这整个黑暗研究领域里的一线希望就是，对孩子的早期干预真的能帮助他们长大后不太可能发展出高水平的心理病态特质。

And actually, that's kind of like the the silver lining in this whole, you know, kind of dark research area, is that early intervention with kids really can help reduce the likelihood of them developing high levels of psychopathic traits as they grow older.

通常这需要培训父母。

And usually it's like it's training parents.

你知道，不是让孩子每周来跟治疗师谈一次就好了。

You know, it's not like a kid comes in and talks to a therapist like once a week and then we're good.

对吧？

Right?

其实更多的是训练父母如何回应，避免让情况升级，避免在孩子闹脾气时形成那种权力对抗，同时也要强化和示范温暖与回应性的态度。

It's it's more training parents about how to respond in ways that don't, like, escalate, kinda create these kind of, like, dominance contests when the kid acts out, but also to reinforce and kind of model this warm and responsiveness.

但关于儿童精神病态和冷酷无情特质，最让人着迷的是，他们往往对惩罚不太敏感。

But what's fascinating about, psychopathy and and callous and unemotional traits, in kids is that they tend to be not very responsive to punishment.

他们对奖励非常敏感。

They're very responsive to rewards.

所以如果你看到孩子做了善良或乐于助人的事，亲子互动训练会教父母重复他们说的话，比如说“那真是很善良的话”。

So if you see kids doing something kind or helpful, the like, parent child interaction training teaches parents to repeat what they said, say that was a very kind thing to say.

就是重复、展示、回应他们，在他们做得好或善良时关注他们的行为，强化它，给予关注，以增加未来再次出现的可能性。

Just like repeating, showing, responding to them, paying attention to their behavior when they do something good or kind, reinforcing it, and giving that attention, to increase the likelihood that you see it in the future.

那么反过来，如果以不好的方式回应孩子，可能会导致未来出现这些黑暗人格特质，那会是什么样的方式呢？

And so the inverse of that, in terms of a bad way to respond to a child that might lead to some of these dark personality traits in the future would be?

冷漠、不回应式的养育，对孩子生气，感到沮丧。

A cold and unresponsive parenting, getting angry, getting frustrated with them.

我是说，身体上的伤害，那就是虐待儿童，这会增加他们长期发展出这些特质的可能性。

I mean, physically harming them, that would be that's child abuse is associated with increased likelihood of developing these traits over time.

你提到支配，就是在对话中占主导地位，试图压过对方。

You mentioned dominating in terms of dominating conversation, trying to outdo them.

对。

Yeah.

所以，我觉得这不仅仅适用于养育有冷酷无情特质的孩子。

So, I mean and this is something that I think is not exclusive to, parenting kids with CU traits.

但有时候，你知道，如果孩子发脾气，你会看到家长说，不行。

But sometimes, you know, if a kid is having a tantrum, you'll like you'll see a parent saying like, no.

你不能要那个。

You can't have that.

然后他们就会，你知道，把发脾气的程度升级。

And then they'll like, you know, increase the the tantrum level.

就像，不行。

Like, no.

你不能要那个。

You can't have that.

但是一旦闹到一定程度，你就妥协了。

But then once it gets to a certain point, you like give in.

对吧？

Right?

这教给孩子的是，你只需要把行为升级。

What that teaches is that you just need to escalate your behavior.

你需要继续跟父母斗，继续升级，再升级，最后你作为孩子总会赢。

You need to continue to like dominate your parent, like kick it up a notch, kick it up a notch, and then at some point you're gonna win as a kid.

所以那种教育方式并不能有效地消除负面行为。

So that kind of parenting is is not going to extinguish the negative behavior very effectively.

你面前有一张脑部扫描图。

And there's a brain scan there in front of you.

那张脑部扫描图是什么？

What is that brain scan?

这是功能性核磁共振的扫描图。

This is a scan of functional MRI.

他们指出的那个区域是前额叶皮层。

So what they're pointing out there is the prefrontal cortex.

研究表明，心理病态程度高的人，前额叶皮层往往活跃度较低，连接性也较差，而这个区域与冲动控制有关。

So research suggests that people who have high levels of psychopathy tend to have less active and less connected, prefrontal cortex, that's associated with impulse control.

它还与道德推理、道德思考有关。

It's also associated with kind of moral reasoning, moral thinking.

如果他们在进行同样的道德或冲动控制任务时，这些区域的大脑活动较弱，这可能有助于解释为什么他们更容易冲动行事，对他人缺乏同理心。

If their, you know, brains are less active during the same moral or impulse control task in those regions, this might help us to explain why they're more likely to behave impulsively to, you know, not be empathetic to other people.

还有杏仁核，我想在这张图上你看不到，但它位于内部。

There's also, the amygdala, which I don't think you can see on here, but it's on the inside.

你可以把它打开。

You can open it up.

哦，好的。

Oh, okay.

让我看看。

Let's see.

关于精神病的其他研究表明，杏仁核，也就是我们大脑深处的一个部分，也和情绪反应有关，尤其是恐惧。

So other research on psychopathy suggests that the amygdala, which is deep within our brain, is also associated with emotional response, particularly fear.

我们知道，精神病倾向高的人通常恐惧感很低，而且他们不太擅长那种厌恶条件反射。

And so we know that people with high levels of psychopathy tend to have they experience pretty low fear, and they're not very good at, like, aversive conditioning.

对吧？

Right?

比如说，如果我们因为某件事受到惩罚，我们就会学到，下次再遇到同样的刺激时，我们会想，哦，上次那件事对我来说结果很糟糕。

So, like, if we get punished for something, we learn that whenever we we, you know, come up against that stimuli again in the future, we're like, oh, that turned out really bad for me last time.

我要避开它。

I'm gonna avoid that.

所以，精神病倾向高的人，他们的杏仁核往往更小，而且活动也更少。

So amygdalas in people with high levels of psychopathy tend to be both smaller and less active.

所以，精神病倾向高的人和低的人之间，确实存在大脑上的差异，神经上的差异。

So there there is like, you know, brain differences, neurological differences between people with high levels and low levels of psychopathy.

所以我想这就引出了一个问题：如果一个人有你描述的那些特质，或者他们属于黑暗三角中的任何一种，这些黑暗人格特质，他们能被治愈吗？

So I guess this begs the question that if someone has those traits you've described or if they're any one of these four things in this dark triad, these dark personality traits, can they be cured?

所以，有些改变是可能的。

So some change is possible.

但是，我是说，有些。

But, I mean, some.

这里的关键词是“有些”。

Some being an operative word there.

所以，我们关于精神病态的大部分研究，特别是针对精神病态的研究，都来自刑事罪犯。

So most of the research we have on psychopathy in particular comes from criminal offenders.

所以，被监禁的人在狱中必须参加一些治疗。

So individuals who are incarcerated have to take part in some treatment, while they're inside.

研究发现，他们并不是特别有动力去改变。

And the research finds that they're not particularly motivated to change.

所以，这对所有这些特质来说都是个大问题，因为他们不太在乎别人，而他们的行为往往伤害的是别人。

So that's a big problem with like all of these things because they don't particularly care about other people, and it tends to be other people that they are hurting with their behavior.

所以这就好比，我为什么要

And so it's like, why would I

改变？

change?

这更像是你的问题，不是我的问题。

This is like a you problem, not a me problem.

对吧？

Right?

所以对于这类人群，动力可能很难找到。

So motivation, can be difficult to come by with this population.

但如果他们持续参与认知行为疗法，就能降低再犯的可能性。

But if they do consistently engage in cognitive behavioral therapies, you can reduce the likelihood of, recidivism.

也就是他们获释后再次犯罪的可能性。

So the likelihood that they will re offend upon release.

再说一次，我们说的是被监禁的人。

Again, we're talking about incarcerated individuals.

说到这些特质比较低的人，Nathan Hudson做了一项很有意思的研究，他让参与者完成一些亲和力挑战。

When it comes to lower levels of these traits, this really interesting research by Nathan Hudson had people do these agreeableness challenges.

而亲和力差不多就是这些特质的反面。

And agreeableness is kind of like the opposite of these traits.

所以研究者每天通过智能手机给他们发提醒，比如说，你应该给朋友一个赞美。

So you would just like ping them on their smartphone every day and would say like, oh, you should give a compliment to a friend.

你应该联系朋友，给他们一些鼓励。

You should reach out to a friend and just offer them some encouragement.

你应该，比如说，今天在咖啡馆排队时给后面的人买杯咖啡。

You should, you know, buy coffee for the person behind you in line at the cafe today.

这些小事鼓励人们变得友善、乐于助人、换位思考。而那些真正坚持做这些事的人，四个月后确实报告说他们的这些特质比开始时降低了。

These little things where people were encouraged to be kind, be helpful to other people, to see other people's perspectives, And people who actually followed through on those did report having lower levels of these traits after four months than at the start.

在你的书里，在“残酷真相：黑暗人格持续存在”那一节，你写道，有毒的人不太可能改变很多。

And in your book, under the section that says hard truths, dark personalities persist, You write poisonous people aren't likely to change very much.

人格特质，从定义上讲，就是持久的。

Personality traits are, by definition, enduring.

对。

Mhmm.

虽然人的性格会随着时间自然有些变化，但那需要几十年的时间。

Although some evolution of our character happens naturally, it takes decade.

数据显示，随着年龄增长，人们会变得稍微更随和一点。而且对监狱里男性的研究发现，即使是临床上达到精神病态水平的人，年纪大了以后再次犯罪的概率也会降低。

Data suggests that people become a bit more agreeable over time, and research with incarcerated men finds that even those with clinical levels of psychopathy are less likely to reoffend as they get older.

即便如此，光靠等待很可能是一种很痛苦的策略。

Even so, waiting it out is likely to be a painful strategy.

有一项研究调查了一千多名长期认识精神病态者的人，问他们这些人在50岁以后行为有没有改善。

One study asked more than a thousand people who knew individual who were psychopathic for a long time whether their behavior had improved past the age of 50.

几乎所有受访者，93%的人都说，正如研究人员所说，这些人在50岁以后的行为和之前一样糟糕，甚至更糟。

Almost all respondents, ninety three percent said that as researchers put it, quote, the behavior was just as bad or worse after age 50 than it had been previously.

一样糟糕，甚至更糟。

Just as bad or worse.

对。

Mhmm.

我是说，这就是他们的本性。

I mean, is their personality.

对吧？

Right?

所以这就像让老虎改变身上的条纹一样。

So it's kind of like asking a tiger to change their stripes.

所以如果你没有动力去做这件事，而我们知道，有这些特质的人往往不太有动力，这就是那百分之九十多的人的情况。

So if you're not motivated to do it, as we know, people with these traits tend not to be very motivated, that's where that, you know, ninety some percent of folks come in.

就是说，除非他们找到某个理由，否则他们不会发生巨大的改变。

It's like, they're not they're not dramatically changing unless they find some reason to do so.

企业能做的最聪明的事情之一，就是打造一个更大的公司，但实际上不用真的雇佣那么多人。

One of the smartest things a business can do is build like a bigger company without actually hiring like one.

但我们面临的问题是，大多数公司并不是所有技能都具备。

But the problem we all face is that most companies don't have every skill in house.

所以当我看到今天真正成功的那些企业时，它们共同的一个模式就是行动速度非常快。

So when I look at the businesses seeing real success today, the consistent pattern with all of them is how quickly they move.

他们会引入在新兴领域有专长的专家，让自己保持领先。

They bring in specialists with skills in emerging areas to keep themselves ahead.

就连我们公司，过去一年也在不断吸纳人才，涵盖AI原生战略、无代码开发以及产品工作流等领域。

Even in our company, we spent the last year pulling in talent across areas like AI native strategy, no code builds, and product workflows.

我们是通过长期合作伙伴Fiverr Pro找到这些人才的。

And we find this talent through our longtime partner, Fiverr Pro.

他们的高端服务只展示经过审核的人才，所以你总能放心，任何帮你处理复杂项目的人，都具备你需要的技能，并且能达到你内部团队同样的高标准。

Their premium service only shows you vetted talent, so you've always got the safeguard that anyone you pull in to help you with a complex project has the skills that you're after and will deliver to the same high standards as your internal team.

最重要的是，他们能跟上节奏。

And most importantly, they'll keep up with the pace.

这个策略很简单，但能让我们在保持敏捷的同时，不牺牲质量。

It's a simple strategy, but it lets us stay agile without compromising on quality.

所以，如果你的业务需要这类技能，就去pro.fiverr.com，找顶尖人才来填补你业务的空缺。

So if you need these kind of skills in your business, head to pro.fiverr.com to find pioneering talent to fill your business's gaps.

网址是pro.fiverr.com。

That's pro.fiverr.com.

你好。

Hello.

我没能参加那个财务会议。

I wasn't able to make that finance meeting.

你能告诉我我错过了什么吗？

Can you tell me what I missed?

我面前的是Wispr Flow的新笔记工具，对我来说，它彻底改变了游戏规则。

What I have in front of me is Wispr Flow's new notetaker, and for me, it's been an absolute game changer.

我大部分时间都花在非常非常长的会议上，和很多不同的团队、不同的部门打交道。

I spend most of my life sat in very, very long meetings with lots of different teams and lots of different departments.

任何一周，我可能都有四十、五十个会议，有时候更多。

In any given week, I could have forty, fifty meetings and sometimes more.

但我也参加播客，那里说了很多有趣的事情，我需要专注于对话。

But also I sit in podcasts where lots of very interesting things get said and I need to focus on the conversation.

Wispr Flow的笔记工具为我做的是，它捕捉了我整个星期发生的所有事情的完整背景。

What Wispr Flow's notetaker does for me is it captures the entire context of everything that's happened throughout my entire week.

它会标注出每句话是谁说的。

It labels who the people are that said what.

而且我可以问它我可能忘记的事情，比如行动项，那些我说过要做但还没做的事。

And I can ask it for things that I might have forgotten, for actions, things that I said I would do that I haven't yet done.

它正在构建一个关于我生活中所有事情的更广泛的背景，这真是一个不可思议的超能力。

It's building this sort of broader context of everything that's happening in my life, and it's an incredible, incredible superpower.

我很喜欢你们很多人会在街上拦住我，因为你们知道我是Wispr Flow的投资者，告诉我它如何改变了你们的生活。

I love the fact that so many of you come up to me in the street because you know I'm an investor in Wispr Flow, and tell me how much it's changed your life.

这是生产力领域最公开的秘密。

It is the worst kept secret in productivity.

如果你想试试，现在就去whisperflow.ai/steven下载并试用吧。

If you wanna give it a go, head to whisperflow.ai/steven to download it right now and give it a try.

一旦你试过，我想你会明白为什么我们让他们赞助这个播客。

And once you try it, I think you'll realize why we let them sponsor this podcast.

它太棒了。

It's amazing.

这个类别里还有你觉得有意思的东西吗？

Is there anything else in this bucket that you find interesting?

因为我知道你，你可能在写一本关于欺骗的书，也可能没有。

Because I know you, you may or may not be working on a book that refocuses on deception.

但还有没有我们没聊到的、你觉得很重要的内容，或者你发现的有趣研究？

But is there anything else that we haven't covered here that you think is pertinent or any research that you uncovered that was fascinating?

现在我实验室里，我越来越着迷于我们如何回应那些对我们撒谎、而我们完全没有怀疑的人。

So in my lab right now, I've become increasingly fascinated with how we respond to people who are lying to us when we're not suspicious at all.

因为大多数研究都是这样的：我给你一堆视频，告诉你其中有些人在撒谎，有些人在说真话，然后你来判断他们。

Because most of the research is like, I give you a bunch of videos, and I tell you some of these people are lying, some are telling the truth, and you make judgments about them.

但这根本不是现实生活中的情况。

But that's not how real life works like at all.

对吧？

Right?

所以通常，我们是在和人们进行某种互动。

So usually, we're having some sort of interaction with people.

没有人会跑过来说，你需要判断这个人的话是真是假。

No one comes in and says, you need to judge the veracity of this person.

我们只是在聊天。

We're just having a conversation.

所以我一直很感兴趣的是，当一个人在说谎而另一个人完全没察觉时，对话是怎么进行的，互动是怎么发展的。

And so I've been really interested in how conversations unfold, how interactions unfold when one person is lying and the other person is just like none the wiser.

我们不断发现一些微小但一致的影响，就是当有人在说谎时，人们会感觉和他们的互动对象没那么亲近。

And so we keep finding these small but consistent effects that people feel less close to their interaction partner when someone is lying to

对。

them.

亲近。

Close.

是的。

Yeah.

就像我们实际上做过一个研究，我们让人们随便聊天，对吧？

It was like so we actually had this study where, we got people to just converse, right?

跟陌生人聊天。

Talk to a stranger.

其中一个人被要求对所有问题都撒谎。

One person was told to lie in response to everything.

另一个人完全不知道这回事。

The other person had no idea that was going on.

研究结束时，有撒谎者的那组人表示，他们感觉和对方没那么亲近，而双方都说真话的那组人则没有这种感觉。

And at the end of that study, the dyads that had a liar in them said like, I feel less connected to this other person than dyads where both people were telling the truth.

我们还发现，人们撒谎越多——就是他们自己报告的在日常生活中撒谎的频率——他们就越感到孤独。

And so we also found that the more lies that people tell, they just self report on how much they lie in their everyday life, the more lonely they feel.

所以我们发现这种双向的影响。

And so we're finding this kind of bidirectional effect.

我觉得人们撒谎往往是为了不伤害别人的感受。

And I think often people lie to like spare the feelings of others.

这是对普通人来说，不一定是指这些特质，而是对普通人来说。

That's for the average person, not necessarily these traits here, but for the average person.

我们说的谎大部分都是出于善意。

Most of the lies that we tell are pro social in nature.

比如，我骗你是因为我不想让你难过。

Like, I tell you a lie because I don't want to hurt your feelings.

但我们发现，这反而让我们之间产生了距离，而不是拉近关系。

But we are finding that that actually creates this like social distance between us as opposed to bringing us closer together.

所以，我一直特别关注说谎带来的负面影响，哪怕我们是为了所谓的好理由。

And so I've been really interested in just kinda like the negative impacts of telling lies even when we do it for quote unquote good reasons.

在那个研究里，说到如果我们俩坐下来，你被要求对我撒谎，我离开时会觉得我们没那么亲近了。

In that, talked about how when if we were both sat down and you were asked to lie to me, I would walk away feeling like I was less close I.

就是

E.

或者说，没那么有连接感。

Slash connected to you.

对。

Yeah.

你觉得是你的行为还是我的感觉，导致了这种疏离感？

What is it in your in your behavior or in my perception that you think is causing this feeling of disconnection?

嗯。

Mhmm.

我们发现，说谎的人被认为不那么热情，不那么能干，也不那么有道德。

So we are finding that people who are lying are perceived as less warm, they're perceived as less competent, they're perceived as less moral.

另外，如果我们回想之前提到的那些欺骗的线索，当人们透露的关于自己的细节较少时，对话就建立在相互交换的基础上。

Also if we think about like some of the cues of deception that we talked about earlier, when people give relatively few details about themselves, conversations are based on this reciprocal exchange.

对吧？

Right?

比如，我告诉你一些关于我的事，你也告诉我一些关于你的事，然后我们就开始了解彼此。

Like, I tell you something about myself, you tell me something about yourself, and like, we start to know each other.

对吧？

Right?

所以，如果有人对你说谎，他们给你的关于自己的信息就会更少，比如。

And so if you've got someone who's lying to you, they're giving you less information about themselves, for example.