本集简介
双语字幕
仅展示文本字幕，不包含中文音频；想边听边看，请使用 Bayt 播客 App。
你面前有个信封，正面写着‘机密’两个字。
You have an envelope in front of you there that says confidential on the front of it.
那信封里装的是什么？
What is in that envelope?
是一篇被保密的论文，全世界都认为它会非常重要，而且会登上《科学前沿》的头版，因为这是一种有效控制癌症的策略。
It's a paper that's under embargo because the world thinks it's gonna be very important, and it's gonna be a lead article in the frontiers in science because this is a strategy to manage cancer effectively.
我们已经有大量证据表明，能让这些患者多活很多年。
And we have a lot of evidence to keep these people alive a hell of a lot longer.
我们给那些原本绝望的人带来了希望。
We have given hope to the hopeless.
你对癌症和其他代谢性疾病的治疗，有着别人没有的独特视角。
And you have a perspective on treating cancer and other metabolic diseases that others don't have.
是的。
Yes.
但问题是，这个领域的人还不理解我关于癌症起源的说法。
But the problem is the field doesn't understand what I'm saying about the origin of cancer.
所以一切最终都回到线粒体，所有慢性病，包括癌症，都是由线粒体受损引起的。
So everything comes back to mitochondria, and all chronic diseases in cancer are the result of damage to this.
科学已经明确指出了这一点，但癌症研究领域至今还不肯接受。
And the science is telling us this, but the field of cancer has yet to accept it.
这真是个悲剧。
That is a tragedy.
你对这事感到生气吗？
Are you pissed off about this?
换谁不生气呢？
Well, who wouldn't be?
这个国家每天有1700人死于癌症。
There's one thousand seven hundred people a day in this country dying from cancer.
相当于每小时70人，而且每年都在恶化。
That's seventy an hour, and it gets worse every single year.
人们什么时候才能醒悟呢？
When is the people gonna wake
那你告诉我，我该怎么生活才能让线粒体保持健康？
So give me a prescription of how I should live my life to keep my mitochondria healthy.
归根结底，就是要通过生活方式来维持线粒体的健康和活力，从而降低风险。
So it all comes down to what you do to maintain the health and vitality of the mitochondria that reduce the risk.
但现在我们处在一个全新的环境里：大量高度加工的碳水化合物、缺乏运动、情绪压力、睡眠质量差，这些都在持续损伤这个细胞器。
But we are now in a new environment where we have massive amounts of highly processed carbohydrates, inactivity, emotional stress, poor sleep habits, and you chronically damage this organelle.
再看看家养的狗，癌症是它们最大的死因，但野生的狼几乎从不患癌。
And then if you look at the domestic dog, cancer is the number one killer of the domestic dog, but wolves in the wild rarely have cancer.
狼整天在野外奔跑，吃的是天然食物，而狗却待在公寓里，一天才有人遛一次。
But the wolf is out running around eating natural foods, yet the dog is in an apartment somewhere, gets a dog walker once a day.
对吧？
Right?
结果呢？狗很快就发胖，一身癌症。
And the next thing, the dog is obese and full of cancer.
我想给人们一些切实可行的建议，让他们能真正去思考和行动。
And I wanna give people actionable things that they can think about.
所以这才是真正关键的。
So this is what's really important.
这是一张通往健康的生物能量路线图。
This is a bio energetic road map to health.
我们称之为预防区。
This is what we call the zone of prevention.
只要你处在这些状态下，得癌症或慢性病的可能性就非常低。
It's very hard to get cancer or chronic diseases when you're in these zones.
那我们来聊聊这个。
So let's talk about that.
所以
So
各位，在本集开始之前，我想请大家帮个忙。
Guys, I've got a favor to ask before this episode begins.
算法会根据你关注的节目，把该节目最精彩的内容优先推送到你的信息流里。
The algorithm, if you follow a show, will deliver you the best episodes from that show very prominently in your feed.
所以当我们这档节目有最精彩、分享最多、评分最高的 episodes 时，我希望你能知道。
So when we have our best episodes on this show, the most shared episodes, the most rated episodes, I would love you to know.
而让你知道的最简单方法，就是点一下关注按钮。
And the simple way for you to know that is to hit that follow button.
而且这也是你能够轻松、免费地帮助我们把节目做得更好的方式。
But also, it's the simple, easy, free thing that you can do to help us make the show better.
如果你现在能花一分钟，在你正在收听的这个应用里点一下关注，我会非常感激。
And I would be hugely grateful if you could take a minute on the app you're listening to this on right now and hit that follow button.
真的非常非常感谢你。
Thank you so, so, so much.
托马斯·赛弗里德教授，您这一生致力于做的是什么，托马斯？
Professor Thomas Seyfried, what is it that you've committed your life to doing, Thomas?
我们目前全心投入的，是用无毒的方式有效管理癌症，这建立在我和其他研究者在这个领域所做的科学基础上。
Well, we're right now committed our lives to managing cancer effectively without toxicity, which is based on based on the science that I and other others have done in this field.
你对癌症和其他代谢性疾病的治疗有着别人没有的视角。
You have a perspective on treating cancer and other metabolic diseases that others don't have.
主流观点，我是说。
The mainstream, should I say.
对，没错。
Oh, yeah.
主流肯定没有这方面的认识。
Well, mainstream doesn't have it for sure.
但这是有科学依据的。
But it's based on science.
我的研究基于德国著名科学家奥托·瓦尔堡在二十世纪二三十年代到四十年代的发现。
I mean, I'm my work is based on what Otto Wirberg, the famous German scientist said from the nineteen twenties, thirties, and forties.
他明确指出，癌症是一种线粒体代谢性疾病。
He clearly showed that cancer was a mitochondrial metabolic disease.
线粒体代谢性疾病是什么意思？
What does that mean, mitochondrial metabolic disease?
好的。
Okay.
这意味着这种疾病的根源在于一种叫线粒体的细胞器。
It means that the origin of the disease resides in the organelle called the mitochondrion.
它位于细胞的细胞质里。
It's it's in the cytoplasm of the cell.
过去被称为，现在也还是细胞的‘动力工厂’。
It used to be called, still is the, the powerhouse of the cell.
它为细胞提供能量。
It gives the cell the energy.
我想我们体内是有线粒体的。
I think we have a mitochondria.
能不能让团队里的人拿一个线粒体进来？
Could one of my team bring in a mitochondria?
嗯，
Well,
这个嘛，这里头就有线粒体。
this is, have a mitochondria in here.
哦，在这儿呢
Oh, here we
来了。
go.
这里每个都有一个。
You've got one each here.
对。
Yeah.
你看，这就是那个小小的细胞器。
Well, see, this is the little organelle that you see.
它看起来像豆子的形状，但实际上是个管状网络。
It looks like a bean shape, but it's actually a tubular network.
这些是管子，会在细胞内根据内部和外部的活动动态变化。
These are tubes and they respond dynamically inside the cell to, both internal, activities as well as external activities.
所以你要明白，在受精那一刻，胚胎发育所需的所有线粒体都来自母亲的细胞质。
So you have to realize that at the time of conception, all of the mitochondria for the developing embryo are in the cytoplasm from the mother.
细胞质。
The cytoplasm.
线粒体不在细胞核里。
The mitochondria are not in the nucleus.
它们在细胞质基质中。
They're in the cytosol.
哦，就是在细胞核外面。
Oh, outside of it.
在细胞核外，但在细胞主体内部。
Outside of the nuke but in the cell body itself.
所有的线粒体，它们决定着我们的命运。
So all of the mitochondria, they determine our destiny.
如果你没有遭遇意外或其他类似情况，它们会决定你能在地球上活多久。
They will determine how long you will live on the planet if you don't have an unfortunate accident or something like this.
它们是有保质期的。
They have an expiration date.
不同物种的寿命各不相同。
Different species die at different times.
没人能活到四百岁。
You don't find people living four hundred years.
老鼠大概只能活两年半。
Mice live about two and a half years.
大象的寿命和我们差不多，或者也差不多吧。
Elephants live, you know, as long as we do or whatever.
但这一切都是由这个细胞器决定的。
But that's all determined by this organelle.
你看我脸上都有皱纹了，就是这样。
So you can see I have wrinkles and this kind of thing.
这是因为在地球上活久了，这个细胞器磨损了，它本来是帮我们高效产生能量的。
This is from living on the planet, and this is from wear and tear on this organelle, which allows us to make energy efficiently.
对。
Mhmm.
所以当这个细胞器随着年龄增长开始出问题，人就会死亡。
So when this organelle starts to falter with age, you die.
你是因为衰老而去世的。
You die from old age.
如果你想活到正常的寿命，就得保护好并尊重这个细胞器。
This organelle has to be protected and respected if you would like to live a normal lifespan.
但现在的饮食、生活方式让我们不断损害这个细胞器。
But in diets and lifestyles and way we are today, we we we damage this organelle.
而这个细胞器一旦受损，就会反过来伤害细胞内的管状网络结构。
And this organelle then can present itself damage to this organelle, which is a tubular network inside the cell.
但让我再说点别的。
But let me say something else.
它不仅调控细胞内部的环境，还影响周围的细胞——肝脏区域、肺部区域、结肠区域、大脑区域、胶质细胞区域、神经元区域，这些其实都源自细胞质里的同一个源头。
It not only controls the internal environment of the cell, it also controls the neighboring cells, the liver neighborhood, the lung neighborhood, the colon neighborhood, the brain neighborhood, the glial neighborhood, the neuron neighborhood, but they all come from the same origin in that cytoplasm.
它们共同决定了你身体的整体代谢健康。
And they determine the overall metabolic health of your body.
这是一个全身性的系统，细胞和组织之间都在相互沟通。
It's a systemic they communicate with each other across cells, across tissues.
我跟你说，这个细胞器控制着细胞核的很多活动。
I'll tell you, this organelle controls a lot of what goes what that nucleus does.
它决定细胞什么时候该分裂。
It tells the cell when to divide.
它也告诉细胞什么时候该放缓。
It tells the cell when to slow down.
它有点像
It's kind of like
大脑，同时又像机房。
a brain, but also like an engine room.
确实有点像这样。
It's kinda like that.
当然，它的大脑部分特别神秘，因为它掌控着细胞和整个身体的命运。
Certainly certainly, the brain part of it is really mysterious, in the sense of of how it controls the destiny of the cell in the body.
所以疾病
So sickness
疾病、病症、癌症——关于这个小小的细胞器在这些慢性病、疾病和癌症中所起的作用，我们到底了解多少？很多人都深受这些病痛之苦。
sickness, disease, cancer, what do we know about the role that this little thing plays in these chronic diseases and illnesses and cancers that so many people suffer with?
是的。
Yeah.
这个细胞器会受损，而且受损的方式多种多样。
Well, this is the organelle that becomes damaged, and it can be damaged in many, many different ways.
我们过去花了很多时间研究癌症，现在则扩展到了整个慢性病领域，因为每一种慢性病都会以不同方式影响特定细胞群中的线粒体。
For cancer is what we have spent a lot of our time on, and now we've moved into the whole chronic disease issue because each each chronic disease can have different manifestations of ill health to the mitochondria in a particular population of cells.
而癌症作为最严重的慢性病，带来的创伤和情绪痛苦也最为剧烈。
But in the case of cancer, which is what we call the most serious of the chronic diseases, creating the most trauma, the most emotional distress.
但我们已经通过大量研究明确证实，环境中多种因素都可能损害特定器官中某类细胞的这个细胞器。
But we have clearly shown based on on many, many works that any multiple things from our environment can damage this organelle in a particular population of cells in a particular organ.
比如，说到致癌物，那就是一种能引发癌症的化学物质。
For example, when you talk about carcinogens, it's a chemical that causes cancer.
这种化学物质是怎么导致癌症的？
How does that chemical cause cancer?
它会破坏蛋白质和脂质。
It damages the proteins and the lipids.
这些小小的曲折结构是精细的内部膜。
These little squiggles are delicate internal membranes.
它们含有生成能量所需的蛋白质和脂质，而能量是在我们呼吸时产生的。
They they contain the proteins and the lipids that allows us to generate energy when we breathe.
明白了。
Okay.
你在呼吸。
You're breathing.
我在呼吸。
I'm breathing.
我吸入氧气。
I take in oxygen.
氧气作为电子的最终受体，帮助生成ATP，别忘了，这其实是一个管状网络。
Oxygen serves as a kind a final acceptor for electrons that allows ATP, to come out of this little and don't forget it's a tubular network.
ATP就是能量的通用货币。
And ATP is the energy currency.
它是细胞内的化学能量货币。
It's the chemical energy currency.
它让酶能够正常工作。
It allows us to enzymes to work.
让细胞内所有的代谢系统都能高效运转。
Allow allows all the metabolic machinery inside of a cell to work optimally.
我再复述一遍，确认我理解对了。
So just to play this back to you so I know I'm clear.
氧气进入体内，是因为我吸气。
Oxygen comes in because I breathe in.
然后我吃东西。
I then eat food.
在线粒体里，它会进行一个过程，释放出ATP作为能量。
In in that mitochondria, it does a process, and it spits out ATP as the energy.
而良好的能量代谢所产生的废物就是二氧化碳和水。
Well and and the waste products of a good energy metabolism would be c o two and water.
就像汽车发动机燃烧汽油时，我们会分解辛烷中的碳氢键，引发内部爆炸来推动活塞。
So when we burn gasoline in an engine of a car, we break down the octane, the carbon hydrogen bonds in an octane, and it and we have an internal explosion that drives pistons.
明白了。
Okay.
排气管排出的都是分解过程中产生的大量废物。
The exhaust is a lot of waste products, from breaking down.
其实细胞内部也在做同样的事。
The minor the the we're doing the same thing inside the cell.
我们是在逐步燃烧碳氢键，这种燃烧是一个分步进行的过程。
We're combusting carbon hydrogen bonds, and that combustion of carbon hydrogen is a graded process.
所以它不会一下子爆炸。
So it's not an immediate explosion.
你是在以一种非常精确的方式断裂碳氢键，产生ATP，而ATP会驱动神经元以及全身其他部位的整个运作系统。
It's a it's a you're you're breaking down the carbon hydrogen bonds in a very precise way producing ATP, which then drives the entire machinery of the neurons in the rest of the body.
对。
Mhmm.
它对能量压力和情绪压力都能做出显著反应。
It can respond dramatically to energetic stress, emotional stress.
顺便说一下，我刚才举了一个致癌物的例子。
Anyway, I gave you an example of a carcinogen.
间歇性缺氧，比如睡眠呼吸暂停患者，他们会连续停呼吸三十秒甚至更久。
Intermittent hypoxia, like people who have sleep apnea, they stop breathing for thirty seconds or more in that general.
这就会产生活性氧，也就是ROS。
And then they that creates ROS, ROS.
而致癌物的作用正是如此。
And that's what carcinogens do.
活性氧。
ROS.
这些被称为活性氧物种。
These are called reactive oxygen species.
它们会损伤那些脆弱的细胞膜。
They damage those delicate membranes.
如果压力太突然、太强烈，整个细胞就会死亡。
And then what happens if it's too acute, too stressful, the whole cell will die.
细胞失去能量后，就会发生凋亡或坏死，也就是细胞死亡。
The cell loses its energy, and we get apoptosis or necrosis, cell death.
但如果这种压力是缓慢、长期积累的，持续数月甚至数年，这个细胞器就会逐渐丧失产生足够能量的能力——不过有趣的是，细胞会通过激活一些古老的代谢通路来补偿，这些通路是我们进化史上的遗留产物。
But if it's gradual, chronic over years, months, years, this organelle loses its ability to produce sufficient energy, but the the cell compensates interestingly enough by using these ancient pathways, heirlooms of our evolutionary past.
因为地球上所有生命最初都是在无氧的黑暗环境中演化出来的，这些细胞当时长得特别旺盛。
So, because all life on the planet evolved without oxygen in the dark, these cells grew like crazy.
它们都是单细胞生物。
There was no they were single cells.
它们无限制地增殖，各种异常生长都出现了。
They got unbridled proliferation and all this kind of stuff.
它们没有线粒体。
They didn't have mitochondria.
它们有的是细菌。
They had bacteria.
而这个细胞器的前身，是一种融合体：一个有细胞核、靠细胞质发酵的细胞。
And the bacteria, which this organelle came from, was a fusion between one cell, that had a nucleus and was fermenting through the cytoplasm.
后来，这种细菌——也就是线粒体的前身——融入进来，于是细胞就有了两种不同的产能方式。
And this bacteria, which is the mitochondria came in, and now you have two different forms of energy.
一种是细胞质里的古老发酵途径，另一种是新来的，能利用氧气、效率高得多的产能方式。
You have, the energy in the cytoplasm, the ancient fermentation, and then you have this new form, can take in oxygen and generate energy much, much more efficiently than the heirloomic.
听好了。
Listen.
我们有一个重大发现，你可能难以置信。
One of our big discoveries, if you can believe it.
你看到中间那个空隙了吗？
But you see that space in the middle there?
是的
Yeah.
那叫基质，三羧酸循环就发生在这里，它负责分解我们吃进去的食物。
That's called the matrix, and that's where the Krebs cycle, the TCA cycle, which breaks down the food that we eat.
但里面还保留着古老的发酵机制，因为在氧气出现之前，所有生命形式都是靠发酵生存的。
But they have an ancient part of a fermentation mechanism inside because before oxygen came, every all life forms were fermenters.
它们在没有氧气的情况下产生能量，因为那时候根本就没有氧气。
They they produced energy without oxygen because there was no oxygen.
我们得等到那些细菌通过光合作用制造出氧气。
We had to wait for those bacteria to make oxygen through a photosynthetic process.
最初所有的生物都是发酵型的。
But all organisms were fermenters in the beginning.
这个细胞器出现之后，能利用氧气快速产生能量。
After this organelle came in and was able to take in oxygen, make energy really, really quick.
但在基质里，循环中仍保留了一条古老的通路，可以在没有氧气的情况下产生能量。
But in that matrix, they have, in the cycle, there's a little pathway there that makes energy without oxygen from the evolutionary past.
所以我们细胞质里也有这个功能，因为它们可以在细胞质里进行发酵。
So we have it in the cytoplasm of the cell because they can use they can ferment in the cytoplasm.
但关于这条通路，我们最大的发现来自代谢大学的克里斯托·舒诺普洛斯，他是这方面的世界权威。
But this organ our big discovery with the work of Christo Schunopoulos from Metastasis University, he's the world leader on that little pathway.
当这个细胞器功能受损时，那些古老的发酵供能通路就会重新激活。
When this organelle becomes impaired, these ancient pathways of energy through fermentation arise.
明白吗？
Okay?
它们试图通过发酵来弥补细胞器丧失的高效供能。
They they try to replace the lost energy from the efficiency of this organelle.
那个区域开始从谷氨酰胺中释放ATP。
That space starts throwing out ATP from glutamine.
这又是另一种发酵能源。
It's another fermentation fuel.
它竟然在那个原本进化出来高效产能的精密细胞器里，生产着古老的能量。
And and it's making, it's making ancient energy in the sophisticated organelle that was, that was, that, that evolved to make efficient energy.
让我来跟你讲一讲。
So let me, let me tell you.
你问我如果破坏这个细胞器，或者氧化磷酸化受损会怎样，
So you get, you asked me what about damaging this organelle and what happens if the damage to oxidative phosphorylation,
其实并不是
which does not
意味着通过氧气产生的能量供应突然中断。
mean, which means energy through oxygen is too acute.
细胞就会死亡。
The cell will die.
氰化物就是个典型的例子。
Cyanide is a perfect example of this.
你给一只小鼠、大鼠，或者一个人喝下掺了氰化物的酷爱饮料，
You take a mouse or a rat or a person and you drink Kool Aid, the cyanide laced Kool Aid.
人就会死。
You die.
因为氰化物会结合到那个利用氧气产生能量的蛋白质上。
Because what happens is that cyanide binds to the protein that's going to, use oxygen for energy.
整个系统就彻底停摆了。
And the whole system shuts down.
basically 就像让你窒息一样。
Like suffocates you basically.
是的。
Yeah.
你会立刻死亡。
You die instantly.
还有其他一些物质也能快速致命，比如叠氮化物和多种化学物质。
And there are other things that can kill, can kill, quickly, azide and a variety of the chemicals.
但慢性病通常并不是对这个细胞器造成急性冲击。
But for chronic diseases, it's usually, not an acute stress on this organelle.
而是长期的累积压力。
It's a chronic stress.
而在癌症中，无论是骨骼、肺、膀胱还是大脑，受影响的组织都会逐渐依赖这些古老的发酵途径来适应。
And in cancer, what happens in a particular tissue, whether it's a bone, lung, bladder, brain, they gradually compensate with these ancient fermentation pathways.
所以这个细胞器会向细胞核发出信号：我快窒息了。
So so this thing this organelle signals to the nucleus, I'm suffocate.
我得不到足够的能量。
I'm not getting enough energy.
于是细胞核启动细胞表面的转运蛋白，让细胞吸收能通过无氧方式提升能量的燃料。
So the nucleus turns on the transporters on the surface of the cell to bring in fuels that will elevate energy through what we call, oxygen independent mechanisms.
这个细胞器是依赖氧气的。
This is an oxygen dependent organelle.
它大部分的能量来自我们的呼吸。
This gets most of its energy because we breathe.
我们所有的细胞都在使用氧气。
All of our cells are using oxygen.
我们呼出的二氧化碳，还有以尿液形式排出的水分——当然，还有其他代谢废物。
And the c o two that we're blowing out and the water that will be collected in the form of urine when you might put, I mean, other waste products in there.
这就是高效的新陈代谢稳态。
That's efficient metabolic homeostasis.
这个细胞器不仅让细胞，还让整个身体都维持在新陈代谢稳态中，所有系统都以最佳效率运转。
This organelle makes not only the cell, but the whole body in a state of of metabolic homeostasis where all systems are working at optimal efficiency.
但如果是长期的干扰，比如吸烟、缺乏运动，就会触发一系列可能导致癌症的因素。
But with chronic disruption, smoking, lack of exercise, you can go right down the list of all of the different things that can elicit cancer.
任何致癌物、微塑料、持久性化学物质、草甘膦，这些都会长期损害这个细胞器产生能量的能力。
Any kind of carcinogens, microplastics, forever chemicals, glyphosate, and any of these kinds of things that would chronically damage, the ability of this organelle to produce energy.
病毒、致癌病毒、炎症。
Viruses, oncogenic viruses, inflammation.
一旦出现慢性炎症。
You have chronic inflammation.
这些因素都会破坏这个细胞器产生足够能量的精密能力。
Any of those things damage this the sophisticated ability of this organelle to produce sufficient energy.
这就是为什么我们解决了这个致癌悖论。
That's why that's why, the oncogenic paradox, which we solved.
那什么是致癌悖论呢？
What's the oncogenic paradox?
这个悖论最早是由一位匈牙利科学家阿尔伯特提出的，他好像因为维生素C的研究得了诺贝尔奖。
That was the paradox that was first put out by Albert, a Hungarian, scientist who received the Nobel Prize, I think, for vitamin C.
他说他对癌症和生命系统特别感兴趣。
He said he said he was very interested in cancer and living systems.
他说这里存在一个悖论。
He said there's a paradox.
他说我们都知道环境中有很多因素会导致癌症。
He said we know multiple things in the environment can elicit cancer.
我们已经识别出这些致癌病毒、慢性炎症、致癌物、间歇性缺氧，还有罕见的种系突变。
We've identified these oncogenic viruses, chronic inflammation, carcinogens, intermittent hypoxia, rare, rare germline mutations.
他说，我们并不清楚这些致病因素究竟是通过什么样的共同病理机制，导致细胞生长失控，也就是癌症。
He said, we don't understand the common pathophysiological mechanism by which any of those provocative agents would elicit dysregulated cell growth, which is cancer.
当你谈到癌症时，到底什么才是癌症的本质？
When you talk about cancer, what appears what is cancer?
细胞分裂失去控制了吗？
Is cell division out of control.
是细胞生长失调。
It's dysregulated cell growth.
这个细胞器决定细胞何时该分裂，何时不该分裂。
This organelle determines when cells should divide and when they should not divide.
它掌控着细胞的命运。
It regulates the destiny of the cell.
所以当这个细胞器长期受损时，它就会退回到那些更古老的通路——那些在氧气出现之前就存在的通路，那时候所有细胞的生长都是失调的，因为它们还没有这套调控系统，也就是线粒体，它起源于
So what happens when this organelle becomes chronically impaired, it falls back on these ancient pathways, these pathways that existed before oxygen came into the environment, where all the cells were dysregulated in the growth because they didn't have this regulatory system, which is the mitochondria coming from a
一种细菌。
from a bacteria.
让我重新梳理一遍，确保我理解对了。
So let me play that back to you in a way just so I, you know, make sure I understand.
我知道这听起来有点深奥。
I I know it can be kinda deep.
好的。
Okay.
所以我面前的这个线粒体，它非常古老，因为它源自一种细菌。
So in this mitochondria here that I have in front of me, there is an ancient because this came from the fu A bacteria.
那是很久很久以前，多种细菌融合的结果。
A fusion of bacterias a long, long time ago.
对。
Yeah.
那些古老的细菌
The old bacteria
大约在几十亿年前
About several billion years ago.
它们非常自私，只想着自己
Used to be very selfish and just think about itself.
它们独自生长，不与外界交流，有着自己的一套生长和繁殖方式，完全不顾及其他生物
It used to grow on its own and didn't communicate with anybody, had its own way of growing and multiplying that was really not in cohesion with anything else.
那种特性至今还保留着。
That is still in there somewhere.
不过现在，因为经历了融合，它在现代形态下会考虑到整个生物体的利益。
And although now in its modern form, because there's been that fusion, it grows thinking about the wider organism.
一旦受损，它就会回到那种旧有的、只顾自己的生长模式。
When it becomes damaged, it falls back on that old selfish way of growing.
有时候，这正是癌症产生的原因。
And sometimes and that's kind of what can cause cancers.
所以，如果细胞受到压力——比如你提到的那些致癌因素——它就可能退回到那种远古的、只顾自己的生长方式，不再顾及整个生物体。
So if you if there's stresses on this, which could be all the carcinogenic things you described, then sometimes this falls back on that prehistoric selfish way of growing where it doesn't think about the wider organism.
这很接近了。
It's close.
从某种角度说，我们对这一点还不了解。
In the sense of thinking, we don't know about that.
明白了。
Okay.
我们只知道，当细胞重回这些古老路径时会带来什么后果。
We just know the consequences of what happens when it falls back on those ancient pathways.
现在说说实际情况。
Now here's the situation.
人们早就从奥托·瓦尔堡的研究中了解到，癌症本质上是细胞的能量问题。
People knew from what our Otto Warburg said, cancer is a energy problem in the cell.
那为什么细胞会开始发酵，产生大量乳酸这种代谢废物呢？
This why would the cells start to ferment and produce a massive amount of fermentation waste product, which is lactic acid?
即使在完全有氧的环境下，它们依然在发酵。
Even in the presence of oxygen, a 100% oxygen, they're still fermenting.
这本来是不应该发生的。
Why that shouldn't happen.
当你我屏住呼吸，或者发生心梗的时候，我来告诉你一件事。
When you and I hold our breath or have a heart attack let me tell you something.
这非常惊人，也正是这条线索让我们走上了这条研究之路。
This is really remarkable, and this is another piece of information that got us on this whole thing.
人发生心梗时，就会停止呼吸。
When people have heart attacks, they stop breathing.
心脏会骤停。
The heart seizes.
明白了。
Okay.
血液会立刻充满这些发酵产生的废物，也就是乳酸。
The bloodstream immediately fills with these fermentation waste products, which are lactic acid.
还有另一种，我们现在知道是琥珀酸。
And the other one, which we now know is succinic acid.
明白了。
Okay.
真惊人。
Wow.
这两种废物。
These two waste products.
如果你在短时间内还不开始呼吸，那就没救了。
Now, if you don't start breathing in a short period of time, you're gonna be dead.
你真正死掉的原因是，大脑里的神经元没法长时间靠这种发酵供能维持运作。
And you're and what you die because the neurons in your brain cannot sustain this kind of fermentation energy for very long.
只要你开始做心肺复苏，让心脏重新跳起来，情况就会好转。
As soon as you use the heart, you you give them cardiac massage and whatever the guy's heart starts beating again.
乳酸和琥珀酸这些代谢废物就会逐渐消退。
The lack the waste products of lactic acid and succinic acid go away.
它们会消失，因为你已经开始呼吸了。
They disappear because you're breathing now.
只要有氧气，你就没必要靠发酵供能，线粒体完全可以利用环境中的氧气来产生能量。
You don't need to ferment when you have oxygen in the environment, and it's and the mitochondria can can utilize the oxygen in the environment.
癌症细胞？沃伯格说，这太奇怪了。
Cancer cells to Warburg said, it's the weirdest thing.
这些癌细胞，明明周围有充足的氧气，却还是坚持靠发酵供能。
These cancer cells, continue to ferment even in 100 of oxygen.
他们为什么要这么做？
Why are they doing that?
他推测，这个细胞器受到了损伤。
And he speculated that this organelle was damaged.
这些癌细胞中的细胞器发生了不可逆的损伤。
Irre irreversible damage to the organelle happened in these cancer cells.
当时他没有电子显微镜。
He didn't have an electron microscope at the time.
他也没有我们现在拥有的那些精密设备。
He didn't have the sophisticated tools that we have today.
所以他只能从生物化学的角度来推断。
So he projected that all on biochemistry.
那时候他是生物化学家，他说，只要有氧气，就不该产生发酵，应该立刻停止，细胞理应回到正常的代谢平衡状态。
At that time, he was a biochemist, and he said, you don't should not produce fermentation if you have ox oxygen should shut that off, and these guys should return to a normal metabolic homeostasis.
他说这是因为这个细胞器里有什么东西被永久性地破坏了。
And he said that's because there's something irreplace irreversibly damaged in this organelle.
所以很多人批评他，说：‘我们根本没有任何证据支持这个说法。’
So a lot of people attacked him, and they said, oh, we don't have any evidence for that.
但这里有个精彩的地方。
Here's the beautiful thing.
有些癌细胞确实会吸收氧气并产生ATP。
Some cancer cells continue to take in oxygen and make ATP.
因此，瓦尔堡一定是错的。
Therefore, Warburg must be wrong.
是的。
Uh-huh.
我们证实了这一点。
We showed that.
我们发现，癌细胞虽然吸收氧气，但并没有通过ATP产生多少能量。
We showed the cancer cell takes in oxygen, but it's not making energy through ATP in any great amount.
它其实是把氧气用来生成活性氧自由基，这些自由基进一步破坏细胞，导致DNA突变——而这正是大家现在拼命在研究的。
It's using it for ROS, these radicals that further damage and cause the DNA mutations that everybody is chasing.
这都是损伤带来的后续影响。
It's all downstream effects of damage.
那用简单的话来说，这意味着什么？
So what does this what does this mean in simple terms?
因为我知道，我有很多自己的看法。
Because I know I'm aware a lot of my views.
我的意思是，好吧。
Means I say, okay.
所以，我的细胞生长失去了调控。
So so I have dysregulated cell growth.
这最终就是我们所面对的问题。
That's ultimately what the problem we're dealing with.
对。
Mhmm.
我们没法控制这些细胞的分裂方式。
We can't control how these cells are dividing.
我们各种手段都用上了，想用药物、辐射或者手术来消灭它们。
We're throwing all kinds of crazy stuff at them, trying to poison or radiate, surgically remove them.
我们想尽一切办法来遏制这种失控的细胞增殖。
We're trying to do everything to stop this dysregulated cell growth.
当我们用电子显微镜观察这个细胞器时，发现那些嵴常常消失了。
So when we look at this organelle under the mic under the electron microscope, we find these cristae are often missing.
你看到的是一种叫‘幽灵线粒体’的东西。
You have what they call ghost mitochondria.
外壳还在，里面却空空如也。
You got the shell, but nothing inside.
就算里面还有东西，也都变形得不成样子。
Or if they're inside, they're all deformed.
所以我们知道，生物学里有个基本原理。
So we know there's a foundational principle in biology.
结构决定功能。
Structure determines function.
如果结构不正常，功能也一定会出问题。
If the structure is abnormal, the function will be abnormal.
这一点所有生物学家都懂，就肿瘤医生不懂。
This is known to all biologists except oncologists.
他们好像完全没意识到这一点。
They don't seem to understand that.
肿瘤医生是干什么的？
What's an oncologist?
就是研究癌症的那些人。
Those are the people who study cancer.
那你又是做什么的？
So what are you then?
我是生物学家。
I'm a biologist.
你是生物学家。
You're a biologist.
是的
Yeah.
我的意思是，我们都清楚，如果细胞器受损，氧化磷酸化就无法高效地产生能量。
I mean, when we know that if the organelle is damaged, you're not gonna be able to produce energy efficiently by oxidative phosphorylation.
明白吧？
Okay?
托马斯，你对这个的理解比我的很多观众要深入得多。
I think you're a bit further down the road, Thomas, than a lot of my viewers are.
对我来说，听到我的细胞里有这么一个能量引擎，而且有上万亿甚至几十亿个，它们之间还能相互交流，这让我很震撼。
For me, hearing that there's this energy engine in my cells that and there's trillions of them or billions of them, and they also communicate with each other.
当我意识到，如果因为自己的生活方式导致这些引擎压力过大、受伤或损坏，能量生产就会变得低效，甚至可能让它们死亡或失灵，我就彻底明白了。
And when this becomes stressed or hurt or damaged because of lifestyle choices that I make, energy production and inefficiency will change, and that could cause this to die or malfunction in some way.
对我来说，这一下就通了。
That is as for me, I go, I've got it.
明白了。
Okay.
那是一个
That's a
这可是个重大进展。
Well, that's a major step forward.
然后我们在此基础上继续推进。
And then I we build upon that.
对。
Yes.
现在我们就在这个基础上推进。
Now we build upon that.
明白了。
Okay.
所以情况是这样的。
So so here's the situation.
我们研究过的所有癌细胞，它们的这个细胞器在数量、结构和功能上都有缺陷。
We've discussed cancer cells, all of them that we have ever looked at have defects in the number structure and function of that organelle.
好的。
Okay.
我仔细研究过，还发表过一篇大论文，花了一年多时间翻遍了早期的电子显微镜文献。
I have looked at I published that big paper where I spent, over a year of my time going through the ancient the well, the early electron microscopy literature.
瓦尔堡当年没这个条件，因为那时候还没有这项技术。
War Warburg didn't have that opportunity because that technology was not there for him.
所以他只能根据生化数据做推测。
So he speculated that based on the biochemistry.
但我回头去看了各种癌症细胞的线粒体电镜图，全都受损了。
But I went back and I looked at these, electron micrographs of mitochondria in various cancers, and they're all damaged.
有些甚至已经完全消失了。
There is few of them that are gone.
我跟一些顶尖专家合作过，比如阿里斯特·门迪·穆里略，他是癌症细胞电镜成像领域的世界权威。
I worked with some of the best like Arist Arist Mendy Murillo, who is a world leader in beautiful electron microscopy of of cancer cells.
你能清楚看到所有损伤，他的成像技术实在太出色了，我们还合著了几篇论文。
And you can see and and all the damage, under his magnificently beautiful and what we have a couple of papers.
展开剩余字幕（还有 480 条）
但我还想告诉你另一件事，史蒂文。
But let me tell you something else, Steven.
在细胞质里，这些细胞器还与其他细胞膜，比如内质网，紧密接触。
In the cytoplasm, these organelles are also in contact with other cellular membranes like the endoplasmic reticulum.
细胞内部有很多我们称之为细胞器的结构。
There's lot that we call organelles inside a cell.
你有细胞核。
You have the nucleus.
你有线粒体。
You have the mitochondrion.
你还有溶酶体。
You you you have lysosomes.
其他一些膜之间也存在密切的接触。
There's intimate contacts between some of the other membranes.
我们观察到线粒体相关膜的存在。
Mitochondrial associated membranes, we see.
在电子显微镜下看，它们也都不正常。
And they're also abnormal when you look at them under the electron microscope.
那些在互动的结构都是异常的。
The ones that's talking to are abnormal.
对。
Yeah.
就是你能看到的那些。
The ones that you can see.
线粒体不正常，和它接触的膜也不正常。
The the mitochondria are abnormal, and the membranes that contact them are abnormal.
明白了。
Okay.
这种紧密接触，我稍后会讲到钙信号，它决定着细胞的命运。
And that intimate contact, I'll get into the calcium signaling a little bit later, which controls the destiny of the cell.
为什么细胞会失控地增殖？
Why the cell is growing out of control?
首先，它在进行发酵。
Well, first of all, it's fermenting.
明白了。
Okay.
这意味着它获取能量的方式不是靠氧化磷酸化。
That means it's getting energy from sources other than oxidative phosphorylation.
你可以把一个癌细胞放在氰化物或叠氮化物里，或者在缺氧环境下，它照样能活。
You can take a cancer cell and and treat it with cyanide or azide or in, absence of and it's still living.
它还在生长，因为它并不依赖
It's still growing because it's not using
氧气途径。
The oxygen pathway.
它们不靠氧气，而是转用不依赖氧气的机制，
They're not using the oxygen falling back on on on oxygen independent mechanisms,
这些机制就叫发酵。
which are called fermentation.
所以我的理解是，线粒体出了问题，不再一定依赖氧气途径来产生能量。
So I understand that to be that there's a malfunction in a mitochondria, which means that it no longer uses its oxygen pathway necessarily.
至少不像正常情况下那样充分。
As sufficiently as it should.
但还是会保留一点点残留能力。
There's always some residual level.
它会找到别的办法来制造能量，这才让它能活下来。
And it finds another way to make the energy, which is how it survives.
对。
Yes.
然后它就停止了与细胞其他部分的沟通。
And then it stops communicating with the rest of the cell.
其实它会跟细胞核沟通，打开闸门，大量吸收用来驱动发酵供能的燃料。
Well, actually communicates with the nucleus to open up the floodgates to bring in the fuels that drive this fermentation energy.
它变得越来越贪得无厌。
It gets more and more greedy.
它必须这么做，因为你正在替换一个高效产能的细胞器。
It it has to because you're you're taking an organelle that produces energy highly efficiently.
明白吗？
Okay?
一个线粒体能产生三四十个ATP呢。
Like 34 to 36 ATPs.
是在有氧的情况下。
With oxygen.
是的。
Yeah.
有氧条件下。
With oxygen.
而现在你却想用只能产生两个ATP的燃料来替代它。
And now you're you're trying to replace that with fuels that give you two, two moles of energy.
所以效率很低。
So it's inefficient.
非常低，然后然后你得到的是四里面只有两。
Very and then and then you get you get two out of the you're getting four.
所以为了弥补效率的不足，你必须拥有巨大的物流体系。
So you you you have to take in in order to make up the efficiency, you must have a tremendous logistic.
你必须拥有巨大的供应能力。
You must have tremendous supply
的的
of of
能给我们提供能量的燃料，
the fuels that will give us energy,
也就是
which are
葡萄糖，也就是糖。
glucose, the sugar.
对。
Yeah.
还有氨基酸谷氨酰胺。
And the amino acid glutamine.
明白了。
Okay.
好的。
Okay.
我们体内含有大量的谷氨酰胺。
Our bodies are loaded with glutamine.
它是血液中含量最丰富的氨基酸。
That's the most abundant amino acid in our bloodstream.
这是进化赋予我们的。
And evolution provided that for us.
因为如果我们停止呼吸，身体就会用它来维持细胞存活。
Because if we stop breathing, we use that fuel to keep the cells alive.
我们的肠道运作依赖谷氨酰胺。
We our gut is controlled by glutamine.
我们的免疫系统也需要谷氨酰胺。
Our immune system uses glutamine.
谷氨酰胺到底是什么？
What is glutamine?
它是一种氨基酸。
It's an amino acid.
明白了。
Okay.
我们可以从食物中合成它。
Which we make from food.
对。
Yeah.
我们确实能从食物里合成它。
Which we can make from food.
没错。
True.
他们把氨基酸分成必需和非必需两类。
Or they call essential and nonessential amino acids.
必需氨基酸得从食物里摄取。
Essentials are from that we must eat.
我们必须吃一些特定的食物来获取这些氨基酸。
We must have certain foods that provide these.
谷氨酰胺被归类为非必需氨基酸。
Glutamine is considered a nonessential amino acid.
从生化角度讲，它叫非必需氨基酸，是因为我们能用糖来合成它。
It's an essential amino acid biochemically called nonessential because we can make it from sugar.
但事实上，它是人体内含量最丰富的氨基酸。
But, basically, it's the most abundant amino acid in our body.
我现在明白了。
I think I get it now.
好的。
Okay.
给我反馈一下。
Feed me back.
让我考考你。
Tell me let me let me test you.
当我们生病时，线粒体会退回到一种古老的供能方式，不再像以前那样有效利用氧气。
When we fall the mitochondria falls to that prehistoric pathway where it starts making energy in a really, really inefficient way without using oxygen in the same way.
它开始依赖葡萄糖和谷氨酰胺来产生能量，而这些都是效率低得多的能量来源。
It starts relying now on glucose and glutamine to produce that energy, which is a much less efficient source of energy.
所以它变得更有‘贪心’了，要消耗更多原料才能产生同样多的ATP，也就是能量。
So it gets a bit more greedy, it needs much more to make the same amount of ATP, which is energy.
对。
Mhmm.
癌细胞往往特别贪得无厌。
So these a cancer cell can be very, very greedy.
它们不再像正常细胞那样对氧气做出反应，而且更自私。
It's not responding to oxygen in the same way, and they're they're a bit more selfish.
它们开始无节制地增殖，完全不顾整个机体的健康。
They start they start sort of multiplying without thought of the broader organism.
对。
Yes.
所以我想问的是，这种情况是怎么发生的？
So the question I have is, how does this happen?
我到底做了什么，才导致功能出了问题？
Does functioning of the what is it that I've done?
你知道我刚才问了什么吧？
You know what I asked
你问的这个问题，乔尔？
this question, Joel?
我明白了。
I okay.
这是因为儿童也会得这些癌症。
It's because children can get these cancers.
对。
Right.
或者九十岁的人也可能得这种癌。
Or an a 90 year old can get the cancer.
是的。
Yeah.
但在我看来，三岁的孩子还没来得及做出什么会影响健康的生活选择。
And it doesn't appear to me that a three year old has necessarily made life choices yet that could
正如我所说，当你考虑到环境中存在的永久性化学物质时，我们现代科技社会中使用的某些物质，能够穿过胎盘，进入这些孩子的器官。
As I said, when you consider Forever Chemicals that are in the environment, the things that we have that we use in our technologically advanced societies can get through the placental wall and get these into the these children's, organs.
你得把这些因素综合起来看。
You know, you have to put it together.
通常来说，这是一系列因素共同作用的结果，别忘了我之前提到过致癌物。
We usually it's a a constellation of things because don't forget I said carcinogens.
其中一些致癌物是脂溶性的。
Some of these carcinogens are fat soluble.
这些致癌物中的一些会在发育早期进入体内并造成损伤。
Some of these carcinogens can get in and damage those during early stages of development.
人们总问，怎么解释一个六个月大的婴儿会得脑癌？
People always say, how you explain brain cancer in a in a six month old baby?
说得通。
Okay.
他不可能抽烟喝酒、夜夜狂欢吧？
What what did he what what he he wasn't smoking and drinking and partying all the time.
但他的线粒体和大脑里的一群细胞受到了损伤，这种损伤导致了细胞失控增殖，因为线粒体负责调控细胞该不该分裂。
But but his the mitochondria and a population of cells in his brain became damaged, and that damage then led to this dysregulated cell growth because the organelle controls when cells should divide and not divide.
那能量又是从哪儿来的呢？
And then, and then where is the energy coming from?
你怎么能理解这么精密的细胞器，竟能如此高效地产生能量？
How do you how do you take a highly sophisticated piece of an organelle and making energy so incredibly efficient?
而现在，我们消耗能量的方式，让这个细胞器向细胞核发出信号，这叫线粒体应激的逆向信号。
And now we're using energy so, this organelle signals to the nucleus called mitochondrial stress respond retrograde signaling.
细胞核会根据这个细胞器的需求做出反应。
The nucleus acts as a respondent to what this organelle wants.
于是细胞核里的致癌基因被激活，就像打开闸门一样，大量吸收葡萄糖和谷氨酰胺，促使细胞无序生长。
So the nucleus then oncogenes, which that you've heard a lot about, they open the floodgates to bring in the glucose and glutamine that allow the cell to grow in a dysregulated way.
正如你所说，细胞重新启用了古老的发酵途径，因为那时候没有调控机制——这个细胞器根本不在其中。
So we've as you said, they go back to these ancient fermentation pathways where there was no regulation because this organelle was not part of the problem.
那问题出在哪儿呢？
So what's part of the situation?
在于调控机制的失效。
The regulation.
那么，有哪些生活方式因素会大幅增加这种状况发生的可能性？
So is there what are the lifestyle factors that are causing this to drastically increasing the probability of this happening?
在很多情况下，并不是患者自己做了什么导致的。
It's not necessarily what the person did in all cases.
而是他们接触过某些东西，触发了这一系列反应。
It's what the person was exposed to that could have elicited this.
这就是致癌的悖论。
That's the oncogenic paradox.
我们已经证实，炎症会引发细胞因子的释放。
So, we have shown, that inflammation produces the cytokines.
当身体出现炎症反应时，这些炎症会损害这个细胞器高效产能的能力。
When you have an inflammatory heat in inflammation, they they damage the ability of this organelle to make energy efficiently.
慢性炎症已被证实是癌症的一个风险因素。
Chronic inflammation is known to be a risk factor for cancer.
慢性炎症。
Chronic inflammation.
间歇性缺氧。
Intermittent hypoxia.
致癌物质。
Carcinogens.
什么是间歇性缺氧？
What's intermittent hypoxia?
就像睡眠呼吸暂停那种情况。
Just like the sleep apnea, that kind of thing.
哦，明白了。
Oh,
好的。
okay.
瓦尔堡早就证明，间歇性缺氧会让细胞受损，降低氧化磷酸化的效率，从而迫使细胞转向无氧发酵来供能。
Warburg had clearly shown that intermittent hypoxia on cells would damage the efficiency of oxidative phosphorylation, leading to a compensatory fermentation.
所以细胞必须做出补偿。
So you have to compensate.
你要知道，如果不补偿，细胞就会死。
Because let me tell you, if you don't compensate, you're dead.
细胞会死亡。
The cell the I mean, the cell dies.
当我们观察全球癌症发病率最高的地区时，像尼日利亚、冈比亚、尼泊尔这些国家反而一直排在癌症发病率最低的行列。
When we look at the populations around the world that have the most prevalence of cancer, it doesn't appear to be some of the countries like Nigeria, Gambia, Nepal consistently rank at the very bottom for cancer cancer incidents.
相反，像澳大利亚、新西兰和美国这样的高收入国家，癌症发病率最高。
Conversely, high income countries like Australia, New Zealand, and The United States have the highest rates of cancer.
这是为什么呢？
Why is that?
这跟我们的技术有关。
It's because of our, technology.
我们的身体本质上还是旧石器时代的样子，因为历史上经常挨饿，身体进化出了高效储存能量的能力。
We are still paleolithic man, and, our biology has allowed us to store energy efficiently because of times of famine.
但现在我们处在全新的环境里：大量高度加工的碳水化合物、缺乏运动、情绪压力。
We are now in a new environment where we have massive amounts of highly processed carbohydrates, inactivity, emotional stress.
还有糟糕的睡眠习惯。
We have poor sleep habits.
把这些因素全都叠加起来，再加上接触致癌物之类的，就会长期损害这个细胞器。
You you pile all those together with avail the exposure to carcinogens and whatever, and you chronically damage this organelle.
在某些器官里，比如乳腺、肺部，或者其他部位，如果特定区域的细胞长期受损，就可能引发细胞生长失控，最终导致癌症。
And, in some organs, you can get breast cancer if it's a lung, if it's a whatever it is, that organelle becomes chronically damaged in some populations of cells in a particular, in a particular organ, and and you can elicit dysregulated cell growth as the result of that.
你知道吗？在我们那篇带图表的论文里发现，只要保持线粒体健康，别忘了我们祖先——五万年前的旧石器时代人类，或者像你提到的，那些至今仍遵循传统生活方式、远离现代饮食和生活干扰的人，他们的癌症发病率普遍更低。
You know, what I find is in in that in the paper that we have with the chart, if you can keep your mitochondria healthy, just don't forget paleolithic man, our ancestors from 500,000 years ago, or modern men, like you said, in these countries living according to traditional ways with minimal interference from modern diet and lifestyle issues have lower amount of cancer in general.
这正是阿尔伯特·施韦泽发现的，那位著名的人道主义医生。
And this is what Albert Schweitzer found, the the famous humanitarian physician.
他专门去非洲部落寻找癌症病例，结果发现，癌症发病率低得惊人。
He was specifically looking for cancer in African tribes, and he said, remarkably, it's extremely low.
这些人在做什么？西方社会癌症高发，而这些非洲人却过着传统生活，为什么他们的癌症这么少？
What what are these guys doing where Western society has a has a lot of cancer and these Africans have living living according to the traditional ways.
他们运动量很大。
So they have a lot of exercise.
吃的东西全是天然有机的。
They're eating all organic foods.
他们不像现代社会的人那样承受巨大压力，也不接触那么多化学物质，结果就是癌症发病率极低。
They're not under the same kind of stress or exposure to chemicals that modern societies have, and you find out you have very low cancer.
比如狗，它们都是从狼进化来的。
Like, for example, dogs are all evolved from the wolf.
野生的狼很少得癌症。
Wolves in the wild rarely have cancer.
家养狗狗最常见的死因就是癌症。
The domestic dog cancer is the number one killer of the domestic dog.
狗和狼之间到底有什么不同？
What is the dog doing that the wolf?
狼在野外跑来跑去，吃的是天然食物。
The wolf is out running around eating natural foods.
狗呢？整天待在公寓里，一天才有人带出去遛一次。
The dog the dog is in an apartment somewhere, gets a dog walker once a day.
对吧？
Right?
结果呢？狗胖得不行，还满身是癌。
And the next thing, the dog dog is obese and full of cancer.
归根结底，一切取决于你怎么做才能维持线粒体的健康和活力，从而降低风险。我待会儿给你看的这张图，说的就是这个。
So it all it all comes down to what what you do to maintain the health and vitality of the mitochondria that reduce the risk, And that's what this chart I'll show you has.
是什么降低了这种长期损伤的风险？
What reduced the risk of damaging this chronically.
明白了。
Okay.
这在很大程度上解释了为什么现代社会饱受慢性病困扰，不只是癌症。
So that can explain in large part why modern societies are struggling with chronic diseases, not only cancer.
我们有饮食引起的二型糖尿病。
We have diet type two diabetes.
我们有肥胖问题。
We have obesity.
我们有高血压。
We have high blood pressure.
我们甚至还面临一系列神经精神方面的问题。
We we have a whole, even neuropsychiatric problems.
只要保护好这个细胞器，让它保持健康，就能降低风险。
If you can protect and keep this organelle healthy, you reduce risk.
现在大家会说，癌症肯定是遗传的，因为我们继承了某些会增加患病风险的基因，比如乳腺癌的BRCA1基因，以及Lynch综合征相关的多种其他癌症基因。
Now people say, well, cancer has to be genetic because we have inherited genes that put us at higher risk, like the BRCA one for breast cancer and the leaf from any for a variety of other cancers.
我们发表在《自然》杂志上的那篇论文，是由Bob Kaplan做的，他系统地梳理了当时的所有遗传风险因素。
Our paper in this pile done by Bob Kaplan, he went through and looked at all the genetic risk then.
是哪篇论文？
Which paper is
对。
it?
这是发表在肿瘤学领域的一篇论文。
It's one of the ones published in oncology.
但这些突变都不是百分之百外显的，也就是说它们只是次要的风险因素。
But none of these mutations are a 100% penetrant, meaning that they're secondary risk factors.
如果是主要风险因素，那只要存在这种突变，百分之百的人都会发病，比如我在泰萨克斯病方面的研究就是这样。
A primary risk factor would be every time that mutation is there, a hundred percent of the people because I work in Tay Sachs disease.
我主要研究代谢方面的领域。
I work in in more in areas of metabolism.
这些突变完全导致了这种疾病。
Those mutations are a hundred percent responsible for that condition.
如果某个基因突变不是百分之百致病，那意味着你有这个突变，也不一定会百分之百得癌症。
If there's no gene mutation that's a hundred percent pen you have that gene, you're gonna hundred percent get cancer.
大多数突变都属于不完全外显。
Most of them are are, are what they call incompletely penetrant.
那这对我们理解疾病的本质意味着什么？
So what does that tell us about the nature of
其实，我们回头看了鲍勃的研究，他发现这些基因突变无一例外，都会影响线粒体中氧化磷酸化的效率。
Well, tell and then we went back what Bob did is he went back, and he looked at what every one of those gene mutations in some way disturbs the efficiency of oxidative phosphorylation in that organelle.
在线粒体里。
In the mitochondria.
在线粒体里。
In the mitochondria.
我们手头有充分的证据，所有风险因素，所有遗传学方面的数据都指向这一点。
We we look that we have all the evidence, all the risk fact, all the genetic front page there.
我本来想给你看些硬数据，但你已经明白了，总之这些突变都会损害这个细胞器的能量生产效率。
I was gonna show you the hard data, but you got so anyway, all of them damage this, the efficiency of energy through, through, through this organelle.
这就像致癌物一样。
So that's like carcinogens.
就像病毒性感染，比如肝癌病毒和乳头瘤病毒，它们产生的物质会进入这里造成破坏，或者在细胞器内部复制，打乱能量效率，引发代偿性发酵，通过异常的钙信号导致细胞失控增殖，最终让细胞不再回应周围细胞的信号。
That's like, viral infections, the viruses that, like, hepatoma and papilloma, they they their their products will go in here and damage it, or they will replicate inside this organelle, screwing up the efficiency, causing a compensatory fermentation, causing the dysregulated cell growth through abnormal calcium signaling, causing cells to no longer, be responsive to their neighbors.
这一点清楚了吗？
Is that clear?
只要我能让你明白这个道理，就能让所有人都明白。
If I can make you understand this, we can make everybody understand this.
对。
Yeah.
所以我花这么多时间追问‘为什么’、要求澄清，是因为做完这期节目后，我会走出去，见到那些真正听节目的人。
So the the reason I spend a lot of time asking why and asking for clarification is because when I do this show, I then go out into the real world and I meet the people that listen.
对。
Yeah.
其中一群听众是年轻罪犯。
And one of the groups of people that listens are the young offenders.
我去探望他们的时候，指了一些我觉得对他们有帮助的节目。
And when I went and visited them, I pointed at the episodes that I thought would help them.
是的。
Yeah.
有个年轻罪犯跟我说：‘我听不了那一集，因为你用的词太难了。’
And a young one of the young offenders said to me, I can't listen to that episode because you the words you used were too big.
我当时心里想：‘哦，这样啊。’
And I remember thinking to myself Okay.
我经常遇到这种情况，但你知道吗？
I that that I get that all the time, but guess what?
现在有了人工智能，你可以把这些内容输入进去，它会帮你简化成更容易懂的说法。
Now we have AI, and you can take these statements and put it into AI right on the and they'll and it'll it'll it'll dumb it down for you.
对。
Mhmm.
所以，这是我们以前没有的工具。
So so that's a tool that we previously did not have.
对。
Mhmm.
所以我现在经常用这个。
So so I use that all the time.
我说，当你听到我这样说话时，别以为我就是埃里克。
I said, when you hear me speak like this, don't think I'm Eric.
别觉得我只是在用这些词，这些其实是学术圈里常用的表达。
Don't think I'm just I I I these are the terms that we use when you're part of the academy.
是的。
Yeah.
明白了。
Okay.
不过现在我们可以把这些术语交给AI，它能很好地帮我们简化整理。
But we can take those terms now, and AI can do a wonderful job in in in synthesizing.
哦，是这样。
Oh, yeah.
我现在明白他在说什么了。
I know what he's talking about now.
但如果没有这个工具，就像你说的，那就完全看不懂了。
But without that tool, then it becomes like you said, well, I can't understand anything.
我只有六十秒，现在给你们看看多亏了我们的赞助商Wispr Flow，我能完成多少事。
I've got sixty seconds, and I'm gonna show you how much I can get done because of our sponsor called Wispr Flow.
还不了解它的人听好了，这是我投资的一个项目，能把你的语音实时转成文字，用在任何应用或设备上。
And for those of you that don't know what it is, it's a business I invested in that turns your speech into text in any app or device.
我要在我们的Slack频道里发一条消息，奖励本周做实验最多的团队成员。
I'm gonna post into our Slack channel, which rewards whichever team member conducted the most experiments this week.
大家好。
Hi, everyone.
本周的实验之星在这里。
Here is this week's experimenter of the week.
恭喜Diary of a CEO预告片团队，成员有Ant、Liv、Dom和Cam。
Congratulations to the Diar of a CEO trailer team, which is Ant, Liv, Dom, and Cam.
你们这一组拿到了。
You guys have one.
好的。
Okay.
现在我要打开Gmail。
Now I'm gonna open Gmail.
这是我们的其中一位创始人发的一封邮件，我想让我的团队也加入进来。
So here is one of our founders on an email chain that I wanna connect my team with.
我只要说一声，把团队的邮箱加进来，Wispr就会自动处理好。
All I have to say is add my team's emails and Wispr will do exactly that.
接下来，给每周都帮我安排日程的Juan发个简短消息。
Now a quick message to Juan, who does my schedule every single week.
嗨，Juan。
Hey, Juan.
周三两点能录吗？等等，还是算了。
Can I record on Wednesday at two p actually, no?
你知道吗？
Do you know what?
咱们周三下午三点录吧。
Let's record at 3PM on Wednesday.
Wispr 的效率是打字的四倍，而且用起来特别简单。
Wispr flow is four times faster than typing, and it is incredibly easy to use.
如果你感兴趣，现在就去 whisperflow.ai/steven 下载试试吧。
So if you wanna give it a go, all you have to do is head to whisperflow.ai/steven to download it today.
如果你了解我，也听过这个播客，就知道我对睡眠有多执着。
If you know me and if you've listened to this podcast before, you'll know how obsessed I am with sleep.
我在睡眠这件事上经历了不少探索。
I've been on a bit of a journey with sleep.
我觉得这是我唯一能掌控的、最重要的事情。
I see it as the single most important thing that I'm have the privilege of having control over.
这正是我们的赞助商Eight Sleep所做到的。
And that's exactly what our sponsor Eight Sleep are.
这是一款极其智能的睡眠床垫。
It's a very, very intelligent piece of material to sleep on.
Eight Sleep Pod的工作原理是这样的。
Here's what the Eight Sleep Pod does.
它会在你睡觉时监测你的身体状况。
It monitors your body while you're sleeping.
借助人工智能，它结合了海量的睡眠数据，自动调节你的睡眠温度，用户反馈说深度睡眠时间提升了高达34%，入睡速度也加快了44%。
And with that AI, it adjusts the temperature for you using billions and billions and billions of hours of sleep data, and members have reported up to a 34% deeper sleep and falling asleep up to 44% faster.
我和我的未婚妻梅兰妮睡在床的不同位置，它会分别根据我们各自的体温和体征，独立调节我们各自区域的温度。
Me and my fiance, Melanie, sleep sleep on different parts of the bed, and it adjusts my part of the bed to my body and her part of the bed to her body.
如果你想了解更多关于这款床垫的信息，请访问8sleep.com/steven。
So if you wanna learn more about this pod, go to 8sleep.com/steven.
这是个绝佳的机会。
Big opportunity.
我是认真的。
I'm not kidding.
你不妨试试看。
Give it a try.
我想确保把所有可能的原因都过一遍。
I really wanna just make sure I tick off the box of cause factors.
你提到了压力。
So you mentioned stress.
你还提到了睡眠。
You mentioned sleep.
目前我并没有癌症，据我所知，愿上帝保佑。
I currently don't have cancer as far as I'm aware, God forbid.
但我还是想尽一切办法来降低患病的风险。
But I but I wanna do everything I can to prevent the probability.
对。
Yeah.
根据我理解，这意味着要保护我的线粒体功能
And I from what I've understood, that means protecting my mitochondrial function
没错。
Yes.
通过一种不会给线粒体带来过度氧化应激的生活方式来实现，是的。
By living a lifestyle where I'm not creating this sort of, like, crazy oxidative stress Yes.
对线粒体而言。
On the mitochondria.
对。
Right.
那你能给我一份具体的生活建议吗？怎样才能让我的线粒体保持健康？
So give me a prescription of how I should live my life to keep my mitochondria healthy.
所以我们开发了葡萄糖-酮体指数计算器，这是首个帮助人们了解线粒体健康状况的生物标志物工具。
Well, that's why we developed the glucose key ketone index calculator, the first biomarker tool that can allow people to know the level of health of their mitochondria.
因为当你从碳水化合物供能转向脂肪供能时——脂肪供能是什么？
Because, when you shift from carbohydrate fuel to lip lipid fuel What's lipid fuel?
脂肪。
Fat.
所以是酮体？
So ketones?
酮体是脂肪酸分解后产生的水溶性物质。
Ketones are a water soluble breakdown product of fatty acids.
对。
Mhmm.
明白了。
Okay.
我们储存脂肪组织。
So we store adipose tissue.
储存脂肪，
We store fat,
也就是腹部的脂肪，
which is the belly fat,
全身都是。
all over.
我们身上有脂肪
We have fat on
在体表。
the outside.
对。
Yeah.
体表的脂肪之所以存在，是因为作为物种，我们必须在最恶劣的环境中生存，食物并不总是有的。
So on the outside, that was there because as a species, we had to survive in the most harsh environments and we were, food was not always there.
我们必须应对各种饥荒和食物匮乏的情况。
So we had to survive all kinds of famine, all kinds of absence of food.
我们的身体经过数百万年的演化，变得极其高效。
Our bodies are so it's a machine that was home over millions of years to be super efficient.
葡萄糖就是黄金，是糖。
So glucose is gold, sugar.
明白了。
Okay.
你要么把它消耗掉，要么就储存为脂肪。
You either burn it or you can store it as fat.
明白了。
Okay.
这才是关键。
That's that's the key.
但当你不再摄入糖分时，那些储存的脂肪就会进入血液，送到肝脏。
But when you have you're not bringing in sugar, that stored fat now moves into the bloodstream, goes to the liver.
就像把一根树枝放进碎枝机，最后产出一些可溶性的酮体。
It's like taking a branch and putting it in a chopper and you outcome these little soluble ketone bodies.
它们是长链脂肪酸分解后的产物。
They're breakdown products of long chain fatty acids.
它们能为大脑、肌肉和身体大多数细胞提供能量，取代葡萄糖的作用——除了红细胞，但其他地方都能用酮体替代葡萄糖供能。
They can replace sugar for the brain, for the muscles, for most other cells in the body, except erythrocytes, but they can replace they can replace the energy of glucose.
明白吗？
Okay?
这就是我们进化的方式。
So, and that's how we evolved.
但现在我们处在一个充斥着大量高度加工碳水化合物的环境里，除非你有糖尿病之类的问题，否则身体不会把它们排出去，而是转化成脂肪储存起来。
But we're now in an environment where we have massive amounts of highly processed carbohydrates, And we, we don't wanna pee them out unless you have diabetes or something, so we store them as fat.
因此，正是因为我们进化出储存能量的能力——这曾经帮助人类生存下来——才导致了如今的肥胖流行。
So we have an obesity epidemic as the result of our evolutionary ability to store energy, which kept us alive as a species.
如果在五十万年前我们没法储存脂肪，人类早就灭绝了。
Because if we were unable to store the fat in 500,000, we would have all been extinct.
你和我，根本不可能进行这场对话。
You and I, this conversation would never exist.
对。
Mhmm.
我们之所以能作为物种延续下来，全靠储存能量的能力，而这些细胞器又让我们高效地燃烧能量。
We would never have existed as a species except for our ability to store energy, and we burn energy efficiently in these organelles.
所以这整个系统是一个极其高效的机器。
So this is all a very highly efficient machine.
当我们失去这种调节能力时——环境里能量太多，压力大，又不运动，脂肪就会越积越多。
So when we lose that ability, when we have so much energy in the environment, stress and no exercise, all this, we store more and more fat.
我们制造出一种对这些细胞器非常有害的环境。
We produce an, an environment that's very damaging to this organelle.
等等。
Wait.
你再说一遍。
Say that again.
那压力是怎么影响这个过程的？
So how does stress impact that?
压力会让皮质醇水平升高。
Stress elevates, corticosteroids.
当你处于压力下，比如跟人吵架、生意谈崩了，或者别的什么事让你心烦意乱的时候。
When you're under stress, you get into a fight, into an argument, or you're stressed out by business deal going bad or whatever.
皮质类固醇会升高血糖，引发全身性炎症。
Corticosteroids elevate elevate blood sugar contributing to, systemic inflammation.
一时生气没关系，但长期压力才要命。
It's okay for a short period of time to be pissed off at something, but it's the chronic stress.
整天刷手机、看负面新闻，一边吃着巨无霸奶油蛋糕，还不动弹，这些事儿堆一块儿。
The chronic like, looking at the cell phone, doom scrolling, all this kind of crazy stuff while eating a big Twinkie, doom scrolling, eating Twinkies, not moving.
所有这些都会给某些细胞里的这个细胞器带来压力。
All of this creates, stress on this organelle in some population of cells.
这让它得更卖力地工作。
It makes it work harder.
这会造成损害，因为你体内会产生活性物质，破坏这个细胞器高效产能的能力。
It's damaging because you produce reactive species that damage the efficiency of this organelle to produce energy effectively.
如果细胞没法靠无氧发酵来补偿，就会慢慢死亡，或者让你更容易得癌症。
And that either will kill the cell gradually if it can't use compensatory fermentation or produce predispose you to cancer.
总之，不管哪种情况，对身体都没好处。
So either way, it's unhealthy.
所以我们现在面对的是慢性病。
So we have chronic disease.
在慢性病里，癌症是最让人头疼的大问题。
Cancer is the number one big dog in the chronic disease world.
我的意思是，这是人们最害怕的那一种。
I mean, it's the one that people fear the most.
2型糖尿病、心血管疾病，还有痴呆症，等等。
Type two diabetes, cardiovascular disease, you know, dementia.
所有这些病，归根结底都跟这个细胞器的损伤有关。
All of these are part of damage to this organelle in one way or another.
就像我之前说的，帕金森病就是当这个细胞器受损后，黑质里的细胞就死了。
And, like I say said, for Parkinson's disease, when that organelle gets damaged, the cells of the substantia nigra die.
它们没法靠发酵来补偿，所以直接就凋亡了。
They are incapable of compensating with fermentation, so they up and die.
大脑里的神经元得癌症的情况非常罕见。
Cancer is very rare in neurons of the brain.
大脑里的神经元本身很少长肿瘤，主要长肿瘤的是胶质细胞，但神经元没法靠发酵来补偿。
Neurons, the glial cells of the brain form these brain tumors mostly, but neurons can't compensate with fermentation.
它们就会死亡。
They die.
所以要么是发酵机制失常，导致细胞失控增殖，也就是癌症；要么就是细胞死亡，引发慢性病。
So you you either get compensatory ancient fermentation leading to dysregulated cell growth, which we call cancer, or we get cell death leading to chronic diseases.
那睡眠呢？
What about sleep then?
睡眠到底对你的身体有什么影响？
What's going on with sleep that's causing you?
睡眠能帮助线粒体恢复能量利用的效率。
Sleep is a way we can restore the energy efficiency of the mitochondria.
如果我们睡得好。
If we're well slept.
如果我们有高质量的睡眠。
If we have good sleep.
是的。
Yeah.
你知道，睡得好，人人都会觉得精神焕发。
You know, everybody feels good when you have a good night's sleep.
身体感觉焕然一新，因为你没那么紧张了。
Your body feels rejuvenated because you're not you're not stressing out.
你削弱了这个细胞器调节代谢环境的能力。
You're reducing the ability of this organelle to manage the the the the metabolic, environment.
如果你整晚不睡，还压力很大，这个细胞器——在身体某个部位的特定细胞里——就从来没有得到休息的机会。
If you're up all night and you're and you're, like, stressed out, you're never given this, organelle in a particular cell, in a particular part of the organ of the body.
明白吗？
You know?
你会出现神经或心理方面的问题。
You you get neuropsychiatric problems.
还可能引发消化系统的问题。
You can get digestive problems.
你还可能得癌症。
You can get cancer.
你还可能得二型糖尿病。
You can get type two diabetes.
这些内容我们全都写进论文里了。
You have a whole and we put it in the paper.
所有这些压力，还有各种因素，都会长期或急性地损害氧化磷酸化过程。
They're all the different stress, all the different things that can chronically, or acutely damage oxidative phosphorylation.
所以说，睡眠其实就是让线粒体稍微休息一下。
So sleep basically gives the mitochondria a little bit of a break.
没错。
Yes.
它让你整个身体都得到放松。
It's a it's a it gives your whole body a break.
说实话。
Let's be honest.
但你把这些因素全都堆在一起。
So so but you you pile those things on together.
缺乏运动。
Lack of exercise.
想想我们的祖先，你觉得追上并猎杀一头大野牛或者猛犸象有多难？
Our ancestors what do you think our ancestors you know, how hard it is to run down and kill a big buffalo or a a woolly mammoth?
我的意思是，做完这种事之后，你肯定累得不行。
I mean, you're you're exhausted after doing something.
事实上，你得去追这些动物。
As a matter of fact, you chase these animals.
你得分散开，这又是另一回事。
You separate and this is another thing.
这其实特别有意思。
Was really interesting.
这项研究来自以色列。
Came out of Israel.
我觉得是去年的事。
I think it was last year.
他们研究了原始人吃的东西。
They looked at the cavemen, what they were eating.
他们专门挑猎物群里最强壮的个体吃，结果间接导致了这些动物的灭绝。
They were eating the the strongest members of the herd, leading to the indirect extinction of these animals.
他们发现，如果你吃了猎物群里最强壮的个体，就能吸收它的生命力——不管是野牛、大象，还是别的什么动物。那时候的人知道，动物在生命巅峰时期的骨髓和生理状态，能赋予你相应的力量。
They found out that if you can eat the strongest member of the herd, you'll get the vitality of that, of that buffalo or elephant or whatever the hell they were eating because they knew the marrow and the and the the physiology of that of that organism at that point in its life could provide you with the strength that that had.
可现在，你为了变强而去吃最强壮的个体，反而让老弱幼小暴露在捕食者面前，最终导致灭绝。
Now when you eat the strongest members of the herd because you wanna be tough, you're putting the old and the young at vulnerable to predators leading to the extinction.
这项研究是来自以色列的一篇重磅论文。
And this is what a big paper came out of out of Israel.
他们分析了五十万年前原始人吃的东西，或者说是他们当时的生活方式。
They looked at these cavemen, what they were eating, like, five hundred thousand years ago or whatever they're doing.
所以人类间接导致了其他物种的灭绝，部分原因就是因为我们专门猎杀猎物群里最强壮的那些个体。
So humans indirectly caused extinction of other species in part and not in part because they were eating the toughest guys in the herd.
所以他们觉得，只要吃了这些强壮的家伙，自己也会变得很强壮。
So because they felt that if I ate those guys, I'm gonna be strong too.
某种程度上，他们确实有道理。
And in a way, they're right.
但这一切都跟肌肉、大脑的能量效率，还有你的抗压能力和耐力息息相关。
But all of it has to do with the energy efficiency of your muscles, your brain, your ability to be resilient, endurance.
我跟你说，这些人身材简直完美。
I'm telling you, these guys were chiseled.
他们不会得二型糖尿病，也不会得癌症。
They they weren't dying from type two diabetes, cancer.
对吧？
Right?
也不会得痴呆。
Dementia.
他们主要是死于感染、外伤，还有婴幼儿夭折。
They were dying from infections and injuries, and child mortality.
我们实际上是在杀死自己的远古祖先。
We're mostly killing our paleolithic ancestors.
但当你让身体重新回到低葡萄糖、高酮体的状态时，你就回到了原本该有的状态，这正是我们提出葡萄糖酮体指数的原因。
But when you bring your body back into a low glucose ketone, you're actually going back like you were, and this is why we developed the glucose ketone index.
里面是什么
What is in
你面前那个信封里
that envelope in front of
有什么？
you?
这是一篇还在保密期的论文，他们觉得这篇论文会非常重要。
Well, this is, it's a paper that's under embargo because they they think it's gonna be the world thinks it's gonna be very important.
而且确实如此。
And, and it is.
它的作用是帮助维持这种细胞器的健康。
So and what it is, this is a, a way to keep that organelle healthy.
所以这是一种调节身体能量效率的方法。
So this is a way to manage, energy efficiency in the body.
而且这篇论文还没公开发表。
And this hasn't been released yet.
确实还没发布。
It hasn't been released.
明白了。
Okay.
马上就要发表了。
It's coming out.
它将成为《前沿科学》的封面文章。
It's a, it's gonna be a lead article in the frontiers in science.
而且不仅如此，这篇论文最初是写给科研人员看的。
And not only that, the paper, the paper was written, for the scientists.
后来期刊又专门做了一个版本，给年轻人阅读。
And then the journal decided to make a second copy for what they call young minds.
所以让八到十二岁，甚至十四岁的孩子，把内容简化理解。
So letting kids that are like eight to 12 or 14 years old, synthesize it down.
我的一位同事说，大多数人其实会看这个简化版，因为他们不想深入了解这个细胞器内部的生物能量学机制，来弄明白这张图到底意味着什么。
And and and one of my colleagues said that's probably what most people will be reading because they don't wanna know about the bioenergetics that actually goes on inside this organelle to explain why this chart means something.
那你研究这个课题已经有一段时间了吧？
And you've been working on this for some time?
嗯，我开发了GKI。
Well, I I I built the GKI.
让我跟你讲讲这个故事。
So let me tell you the story.
有一位美国女性，名叫特鲁迪·杜邦，是一名律师，她得了脑干肿瘤。
There was a woman, an American woman, a lawyer, Trudy DuPont, who, developed, a kind of a brainstem tumor.
我写完那本书之后，就是这本，我唯一的一本书。
And after I wrote my book, that book there that's my only book.
总之，特鲁迪想尝试这种代谢疗法。
Anyway, Trudy Trudy wanted to use this metabolic therapy.
她靠着这种疗法多活了十多年。
She stayed alive much longer over ten years with this.
我们一直照顾着她，可惜最后还是离开了。
We kept the she eventually passed away, unfortunately.
我当时在做测量，因为我们知道肿瘤细胞生长离不开糖。
But so I was measuring because we knew that the tumor cells needed sugar to grow.
奥托·瓦尔堡早就发现这一点，后来也有很多人证实了。
Otto Warburg showed that, and many other people showed that.
但肿瘤细胞没法利用酮体，因为燃烧酮体需要非常高效的线粒体。
And they can't burn ketones because because the fatty you need a very efficient mitochondria to burn ketones for energy.
我们正常细胞可以高效燃烧酮体供能，这样即使在低氧环境下，也能获得充沛的能量。
Our normal cells can burn ketones for energy, and that gives us tremendous we can actually breathe lower oxygen, more energy if you have efficient if you can burn ketones efficiently in this organelle.
但如果线粒体受损，就没办法利用酮体了。
But if the organelle is damaged, they can't use the ketones.
它们既不能燃烧脂肪酸，也不能利用酮体，而这些本来都是储存能量的脂质。
They can't burn fatty acids or ketones, which stores lipid drops.
这是其中一篇重要的论文。
It's one of these big papers here.
史蒂文，你简直不敢相信人们是怎么曲解信息的。
These Steven, you can't believe how people misinterpret information.
他们看到细胞质里有脂肪酸液滴。
They see droplets of fatty acids in the cytoplasm.
于是他们说，你看，癌细胞需要那么多脂肪酸。
They say, you see the cancer cell needs all that fatty acid.
不是的。
No.
它们做不到。
They can't.
那是为了保护它们。
It's there to protect them.
如果它们试图燃烧这些，就会把自己炸死。
If they try to burn it, they blow this up and die.
所以脂肪是储存起来的。
So there is a storage of fat.
它们没法燃烧脂肪酸或者酮体。
They can't burn fatty acids or ketone bodies.
我知道癌细胞需要葡萄糖，也知道它们没法燃烧脂肪酸或酮体，因为这个细胞器坏了。
So I knew cancer needed glucose, and I knew cancer couldn't burn fatty acids or ketones because this organelle is is broken.
所以我分别测量特鲁迪体内的葡萄糖和酮体水平。
So I'm measuring glucose and ketones independently in Trudy.
她正在做指尖采血，把数据传给我，说：'看，这是我的血糖值。'
She's doing the finger prick thing, sending me the information back, and saying, oh, here's my glucose.
这是我的酮体数值。
Here's my ketones.
明白了。
Okay.
所以我面前摆着一台酮体和血糖检测仪。
So I have a a ketone glucose reader in front of me.
对。
Right.
对。
Right.
如果我把血滴在这试纸上，它就能显示我的血糖值。
If I put my blood on this strip, it tells me my glucose levels.
如果我把血滴在这试纸上
If I put my blood on this strip
是的。
Yeah.
它还能告诉我酮体水平。
It tells me my ketone levels.
对。
Right.
对。
Right.
但如果你单独看血糖，它波动很大，变化非常频繁。
But if you if you look at them independently, glucose is very volatile, very variable.
所以我才提出了血糖酮体比这个概念，因为特鲁迪有个残疾人停车位，她拄着拐杖。
And this is why I developed the glucose ketone ratio because Trudy had a parking spot that was for handicapped because she had a cane.
她的脑干胶质瘤让她走路不如正常人那么稳当。
Her brain stem glioma was preventing her from walking as effectively as normal.
结果有人占了她的停车位。
So she somebody took her parking spot.
她气得不行。
She was bullshit.
于是她冲上楼测了血糖，数值高达186毫克每分升。
So she ran upstairs and took her blood sugar, and it was a 186 milligram per deciliter.
血糖高得离谱。
It was very, very high.
我知道她当时在生酮饮食，她给我发邮件说：‘我怕是要不行了。’
So and I know she was on a ketotic diet, And and she emails me and says, I'm gonna die.
我的癌症会迅速恶化。
My cancer's gonna grow fast.
我问她，怎么了？
I said, what's going on?
她说，我的血糖到了186，你知道吗？你之前跟我说，应该保持在50到65之间。
She said, my blood sugar is like one eighty six, and, you know, it's supposed to be you told me it was supposed to be 60 or, you know, fifty, sixty five in that zone.
所以我问她，你的酮体水平怎么样？
She's so I said, what's your ketone level?
她说，还是老样子，大概0.4毫摩尔吧，我记得是0.9毫摩尔。
Oh, it's still you know, like, you just had point four millimolar, or I think it was point nine millimolar.
我说，这个没变啊。
I said, well, that didn't change.
对吧？
Right?
没有。
No.
只是血糖变了。
Just the sugar changed.
我就对跟乔什·芬博auer一起工作的学生们说，乔什，想单独测量这两项根本就是胡扯。
So I said to the students that were working with Josh Feinbauer, I said, Josh, this this trying to measure these two independently versus a bullshit.
这根本很难搞清楚。
You can't this is hard to figure out.
所以我们决定用毫摩尔来统一单位，因为葡萄糖的单位是毫克每分升，而酮体是毫摩尔。
So what we decided to do in millimolar because glucose comes out milligram per deciliter, whereas ketones come out millimolar.
所以我们得把葡萄糖换算成毫摩尔，再除以酮体的毫摩尔值，这样就能得到一个不会乱飘的数字。
So we had to convert glucose to millimolar and divide it by the ketone in millimolar, and then you get a number that's not all over the world.
这个数值非常稳定。
It's very stable.
多亏了特鲁迪这位癌症患者，我们才搞出了这个比例。
So so we were able to because of Trudy, that one cancer patient, we developed the ratio of of this.
后来我们才意识到，这个比例其实反映的是你线粒体的健康状况。
Then later on, we realized that this ratio is a statement of how healthy your mitochondria actually are.
所以当你这个比例很低的时候，你就跟旧石器时代的人一样。
So when you when you have these low ratio, you're a paleolithic man.
你回到了那个没有慢性病的时期，因为那时候我们的细胞器还没被损坏，而那些病正是由损伤引起的。
You're back in the zone where we didn't have chronic diseases because we didn't have damage to the organelle that would cause those diseases.
旧石器时代的人，你想想，他们上哪儿吃甜点去？
So paleolithic man, think, where are they getting their pastries?
他们上哪儿吃蛋糕、糖果，还有这些东西？
Where where are they getting their cakes and sweets and all this other guy?
他们根本就没有。
They didn't have it.
他们不是因为选择才没有的。
They weren't there because of of choice.
他们是迫于环境才没有的。
They were there because of circumstance.
所以我们发现，旧石器时代的人其实一直处于某种酮症状态，因为他们经常好几天吃不上饭。
So our new and we learned paleolithic man was always in some sort of a state of some ketosis because they wouldn't have food for periods.
他们平时活动量非常大。
They were very active in their exercise.
他们虽然没有慢性病，但还是会得其他类型的疾病。
They had they didn't have chronic diseases, but they had other kinds of diseases.
于是，我的学生德里克·李、我和克里斯托斯·沙诺普洛斯一起开始制作一个比例图表。
So so then, my my my my student, Derek Lee, myself, and Christos Sharnopoulos, We started to make a ratio chart.
这些数字是你把血糖值除以酮体值后得到的结果。
Now these are the numbers that you get when you divide your sugar by your ketones.
明白了。
Okay.
那就是我的血糖除以我的酮体。
So my sugar by my ketones.
如果我现在用这个小设备测一下血糖的话
So if I did my glucose measure now on this little radio
我们来看看你的GKI是多少。
Let's see what your GKI is.
哦，你想让我测一下？
Oh, you want me to do it?
好的。
Okay.
好的。
Okay.
你之前测过血糖。
What you had a glucose.
你当时的酮体是0.4毫摩尔。
You you had a a keto with 0.4 millimolar.
对。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
你的血糖值是多少？
What was your sugar?
我们可以现在就分开计算，然后告诉你结果。
I have So we can divide we can do the divi division right now and tell you what you have.
你可以买到这种小型的酮体检测仪。
You can get these little, ketones.
哦，是吗。
Oh, yeah.
这是Keto Mojo品牌。
It's a keto mojo.
现在你也可以买到它们了，真不错。
And you can also get them now for for, wow.
这些人做这个很在行。
These guys are skilled at doing this.
说实话，我出门总会带一个。
I travel with one of these, believe it or not.
对。
Yeah.
所以我一直随身带着一个。
So I I have one all the time.
真厉害。
Wow.
九十。
90.
九十？
90?
明白了。
Okay.
你得分开算，必须得分开算。
So you have to you have to divide you have to divide.
这设备不是有一键按钮，能直接显示GKI值吗？
You're not getting the doesn't this give you the push button and give you the GKI right away?
因为新款的都有这个功能。
Because the new ones have it.
所以你得用90除以18，得出一个数。
So you have to divide 90 by 18, and you get a number.
五。
Five.
五。
Five.
再用五除以零点四。
So divide five by 0.4.
十二点五。
12.5.
明白了。
Okay.
所以你现在得到了。
So here you are.
十二点五。
12.5.
关于 Bayt 播客
Bayt 提供中文+原文双语音频和字幕，帮助你打破语言障碍，轻松听懂全球优质播客。