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你怎么知道自己话太多了？
How do you know you talk too much?
首先就是非语言信号。
So first thing is nonverbal cues.
如果对方张开嘴好像要说什么，那就是在暗示你。
Someone is checking out if they are opening their mouth as if to say something.
我管这叫“张嘴鱼”。
I call it the open fish.
这就是你话太多的一个微妙信号。
And that's a subtle cue that you talk too much.
你觉得他们现在听着，会不会想，天哪，说的就是我？
Do you think they're listening right now and think, fuck, that's me?
是的。
Yes.
而且最近有项研究发现，百分之九十五的人都跟话太多的人共事过。
And there was a recent study when they found that ninety five percent of people have worked with someone who talks too much.
我有个专门测你是不是话太多的测试。
Well, I have a do you talk too much test.
这里一共有五个问题。
So there's five questions here.
如果你有三个以上都回答是，那你大概率是个话痨。
And if you answer more than three times, you're probably an overtalker.
对。
Yeah.
因为我的下一个问题是，哪种情况更糟糕？
Because my next question is, like, which one's worse?
是话太多，还是话太少？
Overtalking or undertalking?
嗯，我花了过去二十年的时间研究那些擅长交谈的高手，我发现沟通是实现目标的工具。
Well, I have spent the last twenty years studying master conversationalists, and I found that it's the vehicle to get what you want.
我以前也是个特别尴尬的人，很长一段时间里都在为糟糕的对话能力而苦恼。
And I'm a recovering awkward person, and I really struggled with bad conversation for a long time.
不过我觉得，下一代人跟科技交流的时间会比跟人交流更多。
But I think the next generations will be talking to technology more than they talk to humans.
因为我们之间的对话变少了，全球每六个人里就有一个受到孤独的困扰。
And because we are having less conversations, one in six people worldwide are affected by loneliness.
所以我现在比以前更频繁地给朋友发九分钟的语音消息。
And I now more than ever am sending nine minute voice notes to my friends.
但说实话，语音消息其实是最自我中心的一种交流方式。
But a voice note, it's the most selfish form of conversation.
但在如今这个技术飞速变革的时代，那些擅长沟通的人会占据优势。
But in this age of technological change, the people who are masterful at conversation are going to have an advantage.
不过，其实有一套高效沟通的公式。
But there's a blueprint to good conversation.
一旦掌握了这套方法，沟通就会变得轻松许多。
And once you know the blueprint, it becomes easier.
比如，我们曾针对500名参与快速社交的人做过三组实验，结果发现，最有效的开场白其实是问对方：今天最开心的事是什么？
For example, we devised three different speed networking experiments with 500 speed networkers, and the best conversation starter was actually what was the highlight of your day.
因为一旦我们问“你好吗”或“你是做什么的”，他们就没什么可聊的了。
Because the moment we asked how are you or what do you do, they ran out of things to talk about.
但历史上最糟糕的提问是……不过我也有一个公式，可以立刻跳过这种寒暄。
But the worst question in history of conversations is But I also have a formula to immediately bypass that small talk.
还有，一个通往魅力的秘密入口。
Also, a secret door into charisma.
另外，还有五种典型类型。
But also, there are five archetypes.
这会影响到我们升职和找到灵魂伴侣。
This is gonna impact getting our promotion and finding your soul mate.
我们会逐一讨论这些，但如何在不冒犯别人的情况下摆脱糟糕的对话呢？
And we're gonna go through all of them, but what are the ways to get out of the bad conversation without offending people?
我们往往很注重第一印象，但很少考虑如何收尾。
Well, we tend to focus a lot on the first impression, but we don't really think about the end.
但这真的很重要，而且我发现了这个框架。
But it's all really important, and I discovered this framework.
那么
So
各位，在节目开始之前，我想请大家帮个忙。
Guys, I've got a favor to ask before this episode begins.
算法是这样的：如果你关注了一个节目，它就会把那个节目最好的几集优先推送到你的信息流里。
The algorithm, if you follow a show, will deliver you the best episodes from that show very prominently in your feed.
所以，当我们这个节目有最好的几集，也就是被分享最多、评分最高的那些集数时，我希望你们能知道。
So when we have our best episodes on this show, the most shared episodes, the most rated episodes, I would love you to know.
而让你们知道的最简单方法，就是点一下那个关注按钮。
And the simple way for you to know that is to hit that follow button.
而且，这也是一个简单、容易、免费的事情，能帮我们把节目做得更好。
But also, it's a simple, easy, free thing that you can do to help us make this show better.
如果你们能在现在听的这个应用上花一分钟，点一下关注按钮，我会非常感激。
I would be hugely grateful if you could take a minute on the app you're listening to this on right now and hit that follow button.
真的非常感谢你们。
Thank you so so so much.
瓦内莎·范·爱德华兹。
Vanessa Van Edwards.
在你新书《对话》的第五页，你提到我们正陷入一种连接危机。
On page five of your new book Conversations, you talk about how we're in a connection crisis.
你说现在的对话变得越来越难、更尴尬，也让人 less 满意。
And you say that conversations are getting harder, more awkward, and less satisfying.
在某种程度上，我也有同感。
At some level, I feel that too.
我想问的是，鉴于你之前聊过的所有内容，以及你可以写的各种题材，你为什么偏偏选了这本书？
My question to you is why did you choose to write this book based on, you know, everything you could have written about, everything we've talked about before?
为什么现在需要这本书？
Why is this book needed at this time?
现在投资提升沟通技巧的人，其实是在给自己买职业保险。
People who are investing in conversation skills right now are creating career insurance.
我们都喜欢跟那些特别会聊天的人共事。
We like to work with people who are great at conversation.
我们喜欢和那些擅长交谈的人在一起。
We like to be with people who are great at conversation.
我们喜欢和那些会聊天的人约会。
We like to date people who are good at conversation.
在这个科技飞速发展的时代，那些精通交谈的人会占据优势。
And in this age of tremendous technological change, the people who are masterful at conversation are going to have an advantage.
所以我写这本书，是因为我们正在慢慢失去与人建立联系的能力。
So I wrote this right now because we are slowly losing our ability to connect.
而且我觉得，这将是最后一代通过真人来学习交谈技巧的人。
And I think this is the last generation that will learn about conversation via human.
我觉得下一代人，他们和科技交流的时间会比和人交流的时间更多。
I think the next generations will be talking to technology more than they talk to humans.
有可能成为交谈高手吗？
Is it possible to be great at conversation?
如果通过我们今天要聊的内容，我真的能成为交谈高手，那你说的优势具体是什么呢？
And if I become great at conversation through what we're about to talk about today, what is the advantage that you're speaking about there?
我在生活中会得到什么好处？
What advantage will I experience in my life?
对于现在正在听的每个人来说，他们相对于现在会看到什么好处？
For everybody listening now, what advantage will they see in their life relative to where they are now?
交谈是得到你想要的东西的途径。
Conversation is the vehicle to get what you want.
对吧？
Right?
如果你想升职，而且你能和老板聊得来，让他觉得和你很投缘，那你更有可能被考虑升职。
If you want a promotion and you can chat with your boss where they connect with you, you're more likely to be thought of for that promotion.
如果你想遇到你的灵魂伴侣，你们必须有深入、有联系、有意义的对话，才能真正了解彼此。
If you wanna meet your soulmate, you have to have deep, connected, meaningful conversation to truly get to know each other.
如果你感到孤独，找到真正让你满足、给你带来交谈乐趣的朋友，会延长你的寿命。
If you are lonely, finding friends that are actually fulfilling and give you the joy of conversation is going to give you a longevity boost.
我觉得我们犯的错误是，我们把交谈看作是额外的事情。
I think that the mistake that we have made is we think of conversation as extra.
我们把它放在了次要位置。
We sort of put it second.
我知道很多领导者在这方面花了很多心思，他们把全部精力都放在自己的理念、技术和业务上，却往往忽略了人的因素。
I know leaders focus on this a lot where they're focused so much on their idea, on their technology, on their business, but they forget about the human element.
我觉得我们应该把练习对话当成去健身房锻炼一样。
And I think we have to start thinking about conversation almost like going to the gym.
我们一直非常重视身体健康，但社交健康对情绪健康同样至关重要。
We've focused a lot on our physical health, but our social health is critical to our emotional health.
如果我们多做些对话练习，我觉得沟通其实是一项可以后天习得的技能。
If we are doing conversation reps, if we can truly become good at conversation conversation, I think, is a skill to learn.
我不认为这东西是天生的，要么有要么没有。
I don't think you're born with it or you're not.
我觉得大家都能学会把话说好，而且这是一项能让你终身受益的本事。
I think you can learn to be good at conversation, and it's the one skill that keeps on giving.
人们通常能意识到自己擅长还是不擅长聊天吗？
Do people tend to know if they're good or bad at conversation?
比如，那些不擅长聊天的人会有哪些表现呢？
Like, there symptoms one experiences when they when they're not good at conversation?
他们自己意识到这一点吗？
Are they aware of that?
是的。
Yes.
不擅长聊天确实会有一些明显的症状。
There is symptoms of being a bad conversationalist.
顺便说一下，我得先交代一下背景。
By the way, I should back up.
大家都知道，我是个曾经很尴尬的人，很长一段时间里我都因为聊天能力差而苦恼。
As you know, I'm a recovering awkward person, and I really struggled with bad conversation for a long time.
后来我意识到，问题出在我问错了问题，而且我对聊天的态度也不对。
And I realized it was because I was asking the wrong questions, and I was approaching conversation the wrong way.
聊天的错误方式就是试图去炫耀或给人留下好印象，而不是去真正了解对方。
The wrong way to approach conversation is trying to impress, not discover.
如果你试图给人留下深刻印象，对话就会变成一种表演。
If you're trying to impress people, conversation becomes performative.
这真的让人非常不满足。
And that is so deeply unfulfilling.
这时候，闲聊就会让人感到灵魂被掏空。
That is when small talk becomes soul crushing.
过去二十年里，我一直在研究那些对话大师。
I have spent the last twenty years studying master conversationalists.
对话大师们在世界上的生活方式与众不同。
Master conversationalists, they live differently in the world.
我之所以知道这一点，是因为我很久以来都不是这样的人。
And I only know this because I wasn't one for a long time.
他们不仅更快乐，而且更自信。
They are not only more joyous, but they're also more confident.
他们更真实地表达自己，更有主见。
They're more authentically assertive.
不管是内向还是外向，他们都能从互动中获得能量，因为对话是在给他们充电，而不是消耗他们的精力。
They get more energy from interactions, whether they're an introvert or extrovert, because their conversations are giving them energy, not taking energy.
糟糕对话的一个表现是——我不太愿意直接给人贴上“不会聊天”的标签，但如果你是个聊完就累的人，你会对社交感到恐惧。
The symptom of bad conversation, and I I hate to give someone a label of being a bad conversationalist, an exhausted conversationalist, is you dread it.
这种恐惧感其实非常重要。
Dread is a really important emotion.
如果你打开日历一看，满眼都是让你害怕的事，或者你整天都提不起劲，那说明生活出问题了。
If you open your calendar and you see only dread or you feel only dread, there's something wrong.
对吧？
Right?
好的对话能让我们振奋，给我们充电。
Conversation boosts us, gives us energy.
所以你在社交场合会感到恐惧。
So you feel dread in social interactions.
一进入对话状态，你就觉得压力山大。
You feel overwhelmed when you're in conversation.
所以如果你在对话中，总是过度思考社交，你的脑子根本停不下来。
So if you're in conversation and you're social overthinking, you cannot turn your brain off.
你满脑子想的都是接下来该说什么。
All you're worried about was what you're gonna say next.
这其实很可能是因为你还没掌握对话的技巧。
It's actually just because you probably haven't learned the mechanics of conversation.
好的对话是有章可循的。
There's a blueprint to good conversation.
我们接下来就聊聊这个。
We're gonna talk about it.
一旦你掌握了这个套路，事情就变得简单多了。
Once you know the blueprint, it becomes easier.
最后一个糟糕对话的症状是，你离开时感觉被人误解了。
And the last symptom of bad conversation is that you leave feeling misunderstood.
你离开时觉得自己表现得最差，或者没能展现出最好的自己。
You leave feeling like I was the worst version of myself, or I wasn't able to be my best self.
我觉得那些特别会聊天的人，聊完之后会让人有一种‘哇’的感觉。
I think really good conversationalist people leave conversation with them thinking, wow.
跟你聊完天之后，我会觉得自己更了解自己了。
I after talking to you, I feel like I understand myself better.
这跟那种‘我想给某人留下好印象’的想法完全是两码事。
And that's a very different way of thinking about, oh, I wanna impress somebody.
那你为今天我们要聊的内容以及这本新书做了多久的研究呢？
So how long have you spent doing the research that feeds into what we're gonna talk about today and feeds into this new book?
好的。
Okay.
其实，我这辈子都在做这方面的研究，因为我过去二十年里特别不擅长聊天。
So accidentally, I've been doing research for this my whole life because I was very bad at conversation for twenty years.
然后二十年前，我意识到我们的互动背后有一些隐藏的规律。
Then twenty years ago, I realized that there are these hidden blueprints behind our interactions.
我当时也不太清楚具体是什么，但我能看出来那些很会聊天的人，他们其实是按照某种套路在走的。
I wasn't quite sure what they were, but I could see that very good conversationalists, they were following some kind of plan.
然后八年前，真正的研究才正式开始，是从一个实验开始的。
Then eight years ago, this is when the real research began, and it started with an experiment.
我管它叫我的快速社交实验。
I call it my speed networking experiment.
这个实验彻底改变了我对聊天的看法。
This fundamentally changed the way I think about conversations.
来看看我们是怎么做的。
So here's what we did.
我知道那些擅长聊天的人肯定掌握着某种秘诀，我就下定决心一定要把它找出来。
I knew there was some secret the conversationalists had, and I was like, I'm gonna find it.
于是我们设计了三种不同的快速社交实验，邀请了五百位参与者。
So we devised three different speed networking experiments with 500 speed networkers.
我们把他们带进房间，在房间的四个角落都装好了摄像头，因为高质量的对话表现方式各不相同。
We brought them in these rooms, and we had cameras set up in all four corners of the room because good conversation looks different.
尤其是那种特别棒的对话。
Really good conversation.
你见过那种，你知道的，
You've seen do you ever you know
当然。
Of course.
表现得很明显。
Show a lot.
在餐厅里。
At a restaurant.
是的。
Yeah.
他们是不是今天心情不好？
Are they having a bad day?
是的。
Yeah.
所以，你知道，一场好的对话有很多手势，很多身体前倾。
So, you know, a good conversation is a lot of gestures, a lot of leaning.
它，你知道的，那种能量很高。
It, you know, has that high energy.
你能看到很多声音上的魅力。
You see a lot of vocal charisma.
音量会提高。
The volume goes up.
在一段糟糕的对话中，听起来就像这样。
In a bad conversation, it sort of sounds like this.
能量很低，表情带着歉意，声音也很小。
Very low energy, apologetic facial expressions, low volume.
然后我给这些社交达人安排了六个开场白。
Then I assigned these networkers six conversation starters.
这些开场白是我特意挑的。
Now I picked these conversation starters.
接下来我会非常仔细地告诉你们具体是哪些。
I'm gonna tell you what they are very carefully.
其中三个我觉得表现会很好。
Three of them I thought could do really well.
另外三个我还有点拿不准。
And three of them I wasn't sure about.
我想看看效果。
I wanted to see.
我们给了他们这六个开场白，并且在每次限时对话结束后，让他们对对话质量进行评分。
We gave them these six conversation starters, and we asked them after each timed conversation to rate the quality of it.
其中一个是，那是我有史以来经历过的最糟糕、最尴尬的一次对话。
One being, that was the worst, most awkward conversation I've ever had.
另一个是，那是我有史以来经历过最好的一次对话。
Two, five being, that was the best conversation I ever had.
我甚至想跟这个人结婚，或者在领英上跟他们建立联系。
I wanna marry this person, or I wanna connect with them on LinkedIn.
然后我们把所有的评分整理出来，并进行了排名。
Then we took all these ratings, and we ranked them.
结果很明显，有的表现好，有的表现差。
And there were clear winners and clear losers.
那些效果最差、最尴尬的对话，都是排在最后的问题。
The losers, the conversations that produced the worst connection, the most awkwardness were last choice.
猜猜看，最后那个问题是什么？
Wanna guess what last choice was?
最后一个。
Last.
是指开场白吗？
In terms of an opener?
就是单纯问一个问题。
In in terms of just a question.
你平时会问的那种问题。
A typical question you ask
你最近怎么样？
How were you?
第五名。
Number five.
那是第五差的。
That was the fifth worst.
非常接近垫底。
Very close to the bottom.
第六名是什么？
Sixth was?
跟天气有关的。
Something about the weather.
那个“你是做什么的”？
That what do you do?
你是做什么的？
What do you do?
那是最差的。
That was the worst.
最糟糕的。
The worst.
好的。
Okay.
为什么？
Why?
所以最后这两个问题，“你好吗”和“你是做什么的”，都是非常社交化的固定套路。
So these last two, how are you and what do you do, they're very socially scripted.
对吧？
Right?
我们一问这些问题，大脑就自动进入自动驾驶模式。
The moment we ask those questions, our brain goes into autopilot.
所以，缺少那种……更像是在表演。
So, there's a lack it's more of a performance.
对话中缺乏兴奋感，而且他们也没什么可聊的了。
There's a lack of excitement in the conversation, and they ran out of things to talk about.
这些都是基于事实的问题。
They're fact based questions.
这就是我们所说的第一层对话的陷阱，你被困在事实里了。
And this is the trap of what we'll call level one conversation, which is you are trapped in fact.
你从哪里来？
Where are you from?
有孩子吗？
Got any kids?
结婚了吗？
Married?
这些事实都是死胡同。
The facts are dead ends.
对吧？
Right?
所以，人们很难跳出这些事实，因为他们被那个社交脚本困住了。
So they're they're it's very hard for someone to break out of that fact because they're stuck in that social that social script.
其实效果最好的开场白是一双运动鞋。
The best conversation starter was actually a sneaker.
我当时就想，真有意思，这个选项遥遥领先。
I was like, well, interesting that this one did best by a lot.
问题是：你今天最开心的时刻是什么？
It was, what was the highlight of your day?
从心理学角度来看，这个问题听起来很随意。
Now what this question does psychologically, it sounds casual.
首先，这其实不算太深。
Well, first of all, it's not too deep.
外向的人容易犯的一个错误是，问得太深太快了。
A mistake that extroverts can make is they ask too deep too quickly.
对吧？
Right?
比如直接问：你人生最大的目标是什么？
They're like, what is your greatest goal in life?
然后你会想，我又不了解你。
And you're like, I don't know you.
对吧？
Right?
所以这个问题不算太深，但其实是“你好吗”的一种巧妙替代。
So it's not too deep, but it's a subtle replacement for how are you?
你其实是在引导对方的大脑去搜寻那些积极乐观的内容。
You're actually asking the other person's brain to search for optimism.
你这是在直接邀请他们的大脑去思考，比如今天有什么好事。
You're literally inviting their brain to think like, what was good?
然后他们会想，嗯，今天的高光时刻是什么。
Then they think, well, highlight of my day.
首先，我们打破了自动导航模式。
So one, we just broke autopilot.
当有人突然意识到这一点并开始思考时，他们的大脑会感到兴奋，因为可以做一些新鲜事。
The most the moment someone goes, oh, and they're thinking for the first time, their brain goes, oh, we get to we get to do something new.
所以他们得想点新东西，而且马上就做到了。
So they got to think of something new, and it was immediate.
这个问题也不算太大。
It wasn't like a a too big of a question.
第二个问题是：你最近在忙什么有趣的事吗？
The second question was have anything exciting you're working on?
这其实是“你是做什么的”的一种巧妙替代。
This is kind of a subtle replacement for what do you do.
对吧？
Right?
如果一个人喜欢自己的工作，他们会聊这个，但会用一种兴奋的方式重新表述。
If someone likes what they do, they're gonna talk about it, but they're gonna reframe it in something exciting.
如果一个人不是由工作来定义的，他们会分享更好的东西。
And if someone someone isn't defined by what they do, they're going to share something better.
第三个问题很简单，就是：你最近有什么好玩的计划吗？
The third question, very, very simple, was do you have any fun plans coming up?
前面这三个问题，其实就是在引导对方去关注生活中的美好。
These questions, the three first three, are literally searching for good.
你是在邀请对方只去思考那些积极正面的事情，从而激发他们对生活其他方面的热情。
You're inviting the other person to only think about good things, and we're juicing excitement for other parts of their life.
到了第四个问题，也就是中间那个，差点让我的数据崩溃。
Now the fourth question, the middle one, almost broke my data.
这也是我作为研究者觉得真正有意思的地方。
And this is where things really got interesting for me as a researcher.
第四个问题。
This fourth question.
人们要么特别喜欢，要么特别讨厌。
People either loved it or they hated it.
他们要么给五分，说这是整周以来让他们最有共鸣的时刻，要么给零分。
They either gave it a five, that was like the most connective thing I felt all week, or a zero.
而我的评分量表上根本就没设零分这个选项。
And a zero wasn't even an option on my scale.
就是这个问题。
It was the question.
你的故事是什么？
What's your story?
那么，你的故事是什么？
Now what's your story?
顺便问一下，你被问过这个问题吗？
Have you ever been asked that question, by the way?
类似的问题吧。
Derivatives of that question.
好的。
Okay.
对。
Yeah.
所以外向的人倾向于问这个问题，因为他们想聊得更深入一点。
So extroverts tend to default to that question because they wanna go a little bit deeper.
但实际上，这属于第三层的问题。
But actually, that is a level three question.
这难度太高了。
It is way too advanced.
对于内向的人，或者还没能快速梳理好自己故事的人来说，这个问题会让他们瞬间进入应激状态。
For someone who's introverted or someone who has never framed their story that quickly, they're immediately put into cortisol.
他们会立刻产生战斗或逃跑的反应。
They're immediately put into fight or flight.
他们心里想的是，我的故事是什么？
They're like, what's my story?
比如，我怎么能这么快就把这个故事讲给你听呢？
Like, how how can I give that to you so quickly?
所以你在无意中让他们陷入了对话的紧张感中。
So you're, by accident, putting them into conversational fear.
就是在这个时候，我意识到存在一种层级关系。
This is when I realized there's a hierarchy.
我们的对话需要分层次来进行。
We have to move through our conversations with different levels.
对吧？
Right?
这就是我们这么安排的原因。
This is why we have this.
所以，对于听不见画面的朋友——比如你正在用 Apple Music 或 Spotify 收听——我们面前有一个三层的阶梯模型。
So for anyone that can't see because you're listening on Apple Music or Spotify or whatever, we have a three tier little stage in front of us.
第一层、第二层、第三层。
Tier one, tier two, tier three.
这三个层级分别是什么？
What are these three tiers?
好的。
Okay.
那么，医生。
So Doctor.
丹·麦克亚当斯发现，对话其实并不像我们想象中那么流畅。
Dan McAdams found that conversation is actually not as fluid as we would like to think.
实际上，当我们试图和别人建立联系时，我们需要经历三个不同的层次。
That actually, when we're trying to connect with someone else, we are trying to move through three distinct levels.
第一层叫做一般特质。
Level one is called general traits.
这就是为什么在最初几分钟里，你基本上是在像用谷歌搜索一样核实对方的信息。
This is why in those first few minutes, you're basically trying to Google fact check someone.
比如，你从哪里来？
Like, where are you from?
你是做什么的？
What do you do?
结婚了吗？
Married?
你住在洛杉矶哪里？
Where do you live in LA?
对吧？
Right?
就是说，你问那些问题，是因为存在某种社会等级。
Like, you're trying to ask all those questions because there's a sort of social hierarchy.
我们的大脑处理社交信息，是从最不亲密到最亲密的。
Our brain processes social facts from least least intimate to most intimate.
所以，如果我们不了解对方的基本情况，就无法深入了解他们内心深处的梦想和担忧。
So we cannot get to know someone on their deepest dreams and worries if we don't know the basic facts about them.
所以，我们常常会陷入那些基于事实的问题的陷阱。
So that is why we often fall into that trap of those fact based questions.
关键在于，真正好的第一层问题，是把那些事实，加上故事，加上情感。
The key here is that really good level one question is taking those facts, but adding story, but adding emotion.
所以，把第一层做得更好的最佳方式，就是用寻找故事来替换那些糟糕的问题，比如“你好吗”、“你是做什么的”。
So the the best way to to do level one better is you're swapping out those bad questions, right, how are you, what do you do, with looking for a story.
我真心相信，事实就像一个停车标志。
I truly believe a fact is a is a stop sign.
故事是一扇通往深处的门。
A story is a doorway.
能各举一个例子吗？
Give me an example of both.
好。
Okay.
其中一个问题，我们可以把它列在这儿：你个人最热衷的项目是什么？
So, one of them, we're actually gonna we can place it on here, is what's your personal passion project?
好。
K.
所以，你个人的热情所在，其实是在寻找故事。
Now what's your personal passion project is actually a hunt for stories.
对吧？
Right?
你会用这个作为开场吗？
And would you open with that?
你是这个意思吗？
Is that what you're saying?
是不是其实无所谓？
Is it doesn't really matter?
它得在开头几分钟内出现。
It has to come it it can come in the first few minutes.
我大概不会一进门就问，史蒂文，你的个人热情项目是什么？
Now I probably wouldn't walk into a room and be like, what's your personal passion project, Steven?
对。
Right.
这有点太过了。
It's it's a little bit much.
我们得先做基本的初次印象，然后可以聊聊，你知道，前十个词，稍后再说。
We have to do our basic first impression, and we can talk about, you know, first 10 words in in a little bit.
但作为开场问题，它比“你好吗”要好。
But as an opener question, it's better than how are you?
说到这儿我得停一下，告诉大家，接下来我要分享的内容都需要一点对话的勇气。
And I have to pause here and say, everything I'm gonna share takes a little bit of conversational courage.
问‘你好吗’其实是最稳妥的。
It's really safe to ask how are you.
问‘你是做什么工作的’也很安全。
It's really safe to ask what do you do.
但如果你想让人印象深刻，想真正建立起联系，那两招可帮不上忙。
But if you wanna be memorable, if you wanna actually spark connection, those won't serve you.
所以问这个问题确实需要一点勇气，但你得到的回答会非常有趣。
So it does take a little bit of courage to ask this, but the answers you're gonna get are incredibly interesting.
你会听到一些故事。
You're gonna get stories.
你还能从中窥见他们的价值观。
You're gonna get a hint at values.
如果你想了解他们是否已婚或有孩子，他们很可能在不经意间就会告诉你。
If you wanna know if they're married or have kids, they probably will tell you by accident.
所以这就像是在寻找故事。
So it's like a hunt for stories.
对吧，也是一样的道理。
Same with right?
我在研究里提到过这个。
I mentioned this one in the study.
最近在忙什么有意思的事吗？
So working on anything exciting these days.
这又是我最喜欢的替换问题之一，因为你在寻找一些好的东西。
This is, again, one of my favorite swap questions because you're hunting for something good.
现在，当我想到一级对话时，你有点像是在给对方送上一杯化学鸡尾酒。
Now when I think about conversation in level one, you're trying to gift someone a chemical cocktail a little bit.
我觉得在一级对话中，这两个问题起了很大的作用。
And I think in level one, these two questions are doing a lot of heavy lifting.
它们现在正在和你的信息流竞争。
They are now competing with your feed.
我最近去参加了一次家长会，如果你当过家长，去过那种会，就知道那简直是折磨。
I went, to a PTA meeting recently, and those are torture if you've ever been to one for any parents.
什么是家长会？
What's a PTA meeting?
哦，就是家长和老师的见面会。
Oh, a parent teacher meeting.
好的。
Okay.
对吧？
Right?
所以房间里有一堆其他家长。
So a bunch of other parents in the room.
我想去认识其他妈妈，因为我刚搬到全国另一边，想多认识些人。
And I wanted to go meet other moms because I just moved across the country to try to meet more people.
我当时还挺兴奋的。
And I was, like, excited.
行，好吧。
I like, okay.
我打算多认识点当妈的。
I'm gonna meet more moms.
好嘞，出发。
Here we go.
我一进屋，发现大家都在刷手机。
And I walk in the room, and everyone's scrolling.
大家都在刷手机。
Everyone's on their feed.
我这才意识到，哇。
And I realized, wow.
现在的聊天不再仅仅是我交朋友的一种方式了。
Conversation now not is not just about a way for me to make friends.
它还得跟那个信息流抢注意力呢。
It actually has to compete with that feed.
对。
Mhmm.
我得让我的问题和回答足够让人兴奋，这样它们才能真正打败那个信息流。
I have to make my questions and my answers so dopamine worthy that they're actually going to beat that feed.
不然的话，他们马上就会回到手机上去。
Otherwise, they're gonna go right back to their phone.
这就是为什么这些内容需要更努力。
That is why these have to do more lifting.
因为如果我想和信息流竞争，我就得制造多巴胺，一点点兴奋，一点点动力。
Because if I wanna compete with the feed, I have to produce dopamine, a little bit of excitement, a little bit of motivation.
我还得创造我所说的，请原谅我用这个词，但就是“对话彩纸”。
I also have to create what I would call, forgive me for this word, but conversational confetti.
这就像我们在对话中得再努力一点，否则的话，有人就会马上回去刷手机。
This is like we gotta we gotta lift a little bit more in our conversations because otherwise, someone's gonna go right back to scrolling.
他们的心思已经飘到别处去了。
Their brain is somewhere else.
他们的脑子要么在邮件列表里，要么在刷社交媒体。
Either their their brain is in their email list or their brain is on their feed.
在这项研究中，我研究那些特别会聊天的人时，其中一个研究对象就是霍华德·斯特恩。
In this research, when I was studying amazing conversationalists, one of the one people I studied is Howard Stern.
不管你对霍华德·斯特恩怎么看，他确实是个聊天大师。
So however you feel about Howard Stern, he is a master conversationalist.
我是说，他能聊很久，而且聊得特别有意思。
I mean, he can carry on long, very interesting.
他能让人说出我完全想象不到的话。
He gets people to say things that I could never imagine.
所以我分析了他采访的几千份文字记录，发现了一个规律。
So I analyzed thousands of transcripts of his interviews, and I found one pattern.
他特别擅长制造信息缺口。
He does a very good job of creating information gaps.
比如他会问：你做过最奇怪的事情是什么？
So he'll say, what's the weirdest thing you've ever done?
或者他会说，昨天发生在我身上最让我惊讶的事，你想听听是什么吗？
Or he'll say, the most surprising thing I heard that happened to me yesterday, you wanna hear what it was?
而你的大脑不喜欢不知道的感觉。
And your brain doesn't like not knowing.
所以当它听到“最惊讶”、“最奇怪”、“最大”、“最糟糕”、“最尴尬”这些词时，大脑就会产生这种信息缺口。
So when it hears the most surprising, the weirdest, the biggest, the worst, the most embarrassing, the brain creates this gap.
就像，这是一种信息缺口，大脑会想，我必须知道。
Like, it's this information gap where the brain is like, I have to know.
对。
Mhmm.
最奇怪的事情是什么？
What is the weirdest thing?
所以，这类问题还会带来一个效果，就是我们制造了这些小小的信息缺口。
So also what happens with these kinds of questions is we're creating these little information gaps.
实际上，在对话中说出和使用这些短语，是一种制造更多好奇心和兴趣的方式。
And actually saying and using in conversation these phrases is a way that we can create more intrigue and interest.
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我知道这听起来有点不可思议，对吧？
And I I know that sounds like, what?
但你想想看。
But think about this.
要是昨天发生了件特别离谱的事，你走进餐厅跟大家说：‘兄弟们，我昨天遇到了最疯狂的事！’大家肯定立马放下手机。
If something crazy happened to you yesterday and you walk into dinner and you're like, guys, the craziest thing happened to me yesterday, Everyone's like, phone's down.
确实是这样。
Mhmm.
对吧？
Right?
我现在可不能说些无聊的话。
Now I couldn't say something boring.
我不能说，我被堵在路上了。
I couldn't be like, I was stuck in traffic.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
有意思。
Funny.
但我觉得，找机会制造那种小小的“对话彩蛋”，就像用这样的问题来开启话题。
But I think that looking for opportunities to create that little bit of conversational confetti, they come up with questions like this.
这是最后一个。
This is the last one.
那你最近有什么好玩的计划吗？
So have any fun plans coming up?
这个问题之所以重要，而且我在第三个问题上纠结了很久，因为每个级别有三个问题，是因为“有什么好玩的计划吗”是一种很巧妙的方式，来暗示未来可能一起做的事。
Now the reason why this one is important and I agonized over this over this third question, because there's three questions for each level, is have any fun plans coming up is a subtle way to bring up potential shared future.
从心理学角度来说，当我们觉得可以和某人一起做些有趣的事，或者对方在做的事我也很想参与时，我们就会和对方产生联结。
Psychologically speaking, we bond with someone when we feel like we could do something fun with them, or they're doing something fun that I would also like to do.
我觉得这些问题的部分意义在于，让别人知道你擅长问更好的问题，比如知道你在寻找刺激或者追求兴奋。
I think that part of these questions is being known for asking better questions, like being known for searching for hunt or hunting for excitement.
所以接下来会发生的是，那些在工作中认识你的人，或者你的工作朋友，或者工作之外的朋友，他们会把这些事情带给你。
So what will happen is with people who know you at work or your work friends or outside of work friends is they'll bring these things to you.
他们知道你会问起个人的热情所在。
They know that you're gonna ask out personal passions.
所以下次你可以说，嘿，上次我们聊天的时候，你提到了某某某。
So next time you get to say, hey, last time we were talking, you mentioned x y z.
那件事进展怎么样了？
How's that going?
所以这些也成了你的回扣话题。
So they also become your callbacks.
它们让以后的对话更容易。
They make conversation easier later.
每个人都是从非常不同的起点开始的，不是吗？
Everybody's starting from a remarkably different place here, aren't they?
从技能方面来说，但也是，嗯，意愿方面。
In in terms of both skill, but also, like, will
你知道，就是愿意去做这件事。
Do you know what and, like, willing to do it.
我觉得现在听的人里有很多，可以说是内向的人，但想想，这到底有什么意义？
Like, think there'll be a lot of, one might say introverts listening right now, but just think, what's the fucking point?
对，是的。
Like Yeah.
你知道，我本来就不喜欢跟人打交道，这太耗精力了，我还得问这些问题，假装感兴趣。
You know, I don't like people anyway, and it's so much energy, and I've gotta ask these questions and pretend to be interested.
这会让我精疲力尽。
This is gonna drain me.
天哪。
Oh my gosh.
我同意。
I I agree.
两件事可以同时成立。
And two things can be true.
这种感觉真的很累，因为你一直在努力。
It's very exhausting in the sense of you're trying.
对吧？
Right?
比如，我们得在对话里投入精力，但那种特别肤浅的闲聊也让人精疲力竭。
Like, we're putting energy into conversation, but it's also exhausting to have really shallow small talk.
对。
Mhmm.
我觉得在活动现场站着，或者在后台跟 people 寒暄，聊些毫无意义的内容，真的让人筋疲力尽。
I find it exhausting to stand at an event or be schmoozing with people backstage and be talking about nothing.
你是想进行那种非常无聊、可预测的对话吗？在这种对话里，你没什么存在感，对方也一样，你们只是干等着能回家看 Netflix 的那一刻？
Do you wanna have very boring, predictable conversation where you're less memorable and they're less memorable and you're just waiting till you can get home to Netflix?
这太伤人了。
That's one heart.
那不是我想要的选择。
That's not what I would choose.
还是说，我们选择打破常规？
Or do we choose the heart of, I'm gonna break a script.
对吧？
Right?
我会试着把第一层做得更好。
I'm gonna try to do level one better.
我打算试着，你知道的，激发一点多巴胺。
I'm gonna try to, you know, trigger a little bit dopamine.
我会尝试学点以前不知道的东西，这也许、真的也许能带来快乐。
I'm gonna try to learn something that I didn't know before, which is going to maybe, just maybe, bring joy.
顺便说一句，如果你得到了一个特别棒的答案，对话其实有两面性：既要会说，也要会问。
If you get a really great answer by the way, there's two sides of conversation, talking and asking.
我觉得即使是那些内向的人，他们心里也有非常宏大的人生目标，而且这些目标对他们来说很重要。
I I think even for those introverts, they have really, really big goals in their life that they care about.
对。
Yeah.
所以我觉得把这种基础层面的东西，对，跟那些最高远的目标联系起来，对于行为的产生至关重要，而且这样才能让激励效应真正显现出来，让人觉得付出是值得的。
And so I think connecting this level one stuff Yeah.
这些高远的目标，对，跟基础层面的行为建立联系，对于促使行为发生非常关键，只有这样，在权衡利弊之后，才会让人觉得这一切都是值得的。
To those high to the highest goals is, like, critical for the behavior to occur and for it to, like, net out in the incentive equation has been worthwhile.
是的。
Yes.
因为如果你能告诉我，提问怎么会有任何失败基金计划出现
Because if you can tell me how asking have any flop fund plans coming
上来 是的。
up Yeah.
这会帮助我成为更好的CEO或创始人，或者无论我想成为谁，父亲、母亲、女儿，无论是什么，那我就加入。
Is gonna help me become a better CEO or founder or whoever I wanna be, father, mom, daughter, whatever, then I'm in.
是的。
Yes.
好的。
Okay.
那我们来专门聊聊创始人和CEO。
So let's talk about founders and CEOs specifically.
大家有个误区，我接触过很多公司。
There is a mistaken belief, and I work with a lot of companies.
对吧？
Right?
我接触过很多创始人。
I work with a lot of founders.
他们认为聊天是浪费时间，没效率。
They believe that conversation is antiproductive.
他们担心，哎呀，我可不想让员工整天瞎聊。
They worry that, Ugh, I don't know if I want my employees to talk a lot.
我可没时间搞那些寒暄客套。
I can't waste time on small talk.
研究结果恰恰相反。
The research shows the opposite.
而且，从逻辑上讲，如果你仔细想想，关系融洽的人合作得更好。
And also, logically, if you think this through, connected people collaborate better.
积极性高的员工在一起工作更默契。
Engaged employees work better together.
当我们感觉良好的时候，效率会更高。
We are more productive when we feel good.
事实上，这里的关键字是摩擦。
And in fact, the key word here is friction.
当一家公司的沟通存在很多摩擦时，员工就会对自己产生怀疑。
When you have a company that has a lot of communication friction, you have employees who doubt themselves.
他们缺乏心理安全感。
You don't have psychological safety.
他们在头脑风暴时会遇到很大的困难。
They have a really hard time brainstorming.
大家会藏着掖着，不肯分享信息。
You have people who withhold information.
信息孤岛现象会更严重。
You have more information silos.
沟通不畅会让公司白白花钱。
Communication friction costs companies money.
所以，如果员工之间的互动很顺畅，他们甚至都轮不到进入第三阶段。
And so if you have a community of employees who have very easy level one, they don't even get to level three.
你连公司里每个人的第三层都达不到。
You don't even get to level three with everyone in your company.
就连你的Uber司机，你也连第三层都接触不到。
Don't even get to level three with your Uber driver.
但如果你能轻松地进行闲聊和打趣，让对方知道，哦，对，清楚他们个人的时尚爱好是什么。
But if you have really easy small talk, easy banter, where someone knows, oh, yeah, know exactly what their personal fashion project is.
我就知道他们是谁了。
I know who they are.
我知道他们接下来有什么好玩的计划。
I know what fun plans they have coming up.
会议的前五分钟不仅毫无障碍，而且实际上很愉快。
The first five minutes of your meeting becomes not only frictionless, but actually pleasurable.
人们准时到场。
People show up on time.
人们更有生产力。
People are more productive.
人们愿意待在那里，因为他们真的想和同事联系和合作，无论是远程还是面对面。
People want to be there because they actually wanna connect and collaborate with their and this is remote or in person.
对吧？
Right?
因为他们知道他们有这些非常松散的联系，而松散的联系实际上让我们更有生产力。
Because they know they have these very loose ties, and loose ties actually make us more productive.
所以我们追求的是无摩擦的沟通，而这发生在第一层。
And so we are looking for frictionless communication, and that happens at level one.
其实，工作对话就应该是最理想的一级对话。
In fact, work conversations should be really ideal level ones.
这也是最快建立联系的方式吗？
Is this in part also the fastest way to get to connection?
是的。
Yes.
因为这些CEO或创始人，你知道，忙碌的人通常时间都很紧。
Because these CEOs or founders or, you know, busy people generally are very time poor.
确实。
For sure.
所以他们没时间，你知道，花三十分钟慢慢建立联系。
So they don't have, you know, thirty minutes to move their way to connection.
但你的意思是
But are you saying that
这些就是捷径。
This is these are shortcuts.
好的。
Okay.
对吧？
Right?
所以，对CEO来说，最糟糕的情况就是别人告诉他：你得表现得再热情一点。
So, like, what's it's way worse for a CEO to be like, shoot, I've been told I better be warmer.
确实如此。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我大部分学生都很聪明、很有才华，也很机灵，但有点笨拙，想快点把事情搞定。
I have a lot of like most of my students are brilliant, very talented, very smart, but a little awkward and wanna get it done.
对吧？
Right?
他们更关注的是自信感和亲和力。
They're much more focused on the confidence and the warmth.
所以他们试着去表现亲切，因为他们觉得应该这么做。
So they try to do warmth because they they feel like they should.
然后他们就会想，那些孩子怎么样呢？
And they're like, how are those kids?
这就变成了一种社交套路。
And then it's like a social script.
挺好的。
Good.
或者问你好吗？
Or how are you?
挺好的，就是忙，挺忙的，不过状态不错。
Good, busy, busy, but good.
然后他们发现这样没用。
And they're like, it's not working.
这反而降低了效率。
It was anti productive.
不是。
No.
你不如直接跳到后面。
I'd rather you skip ahead.
把这个部分快速过一遍，讲清楚就行。
Make this level quick and good.
对吧？
Right?
所以我建议每个线上或线下的团队每周做一次干预练习，就是在会议刚开始的时候，先让大家分享一件好事。
So like the team intervention that I encourage every virtual or in person team to do is once a week at the start of a meeting, start with tell me something good.
速度要非常快。
Very, very quickly.
大家快速轮流一圈，每人分享一个成果或者一件开心的事。
Everyone goes around very quickly and they share one win or something good.
哪怕是很小的事也行。
It can be small.
也可以是大事情。
It can be big.
这花不了三分钟，或者五分钟，取决于你的团队有多大。
That can take less than three minutes, less than five minutes, depending on how big your team is.
我们团队在周二的电话会议上就这么做。
We do it on our Tuesday team calls at my team.
这样做的好处是，你创造了一个安全、非常受控的空间，让大家分享好的事情。
What it does is you've just created a safe, very contained space for good level one.
只有好的事情。
It's only good.
否则的话，人们会不小心开始抱怨。
So otherwise otherwise, people will accidentally complain.
对吧？
Right?
他们会说，哎呀，这天气。
They'll be, oh, the weather.
哦，堵车。
Oh, traffic.
对吧？
Right?
但你是在给它加一个正面的框架。
But you're you're putting a frame around it that's good.
你在给它限定时间。
You're time boxing it.
对吧？
Right?
大家很快就转一圈，但你很快就在建立这些团队联系。
Everyone goes around really quickly, but you're very quickly creating these these team connections.
所以，在你的会议中，也在你的文化中，留出时间来问稍微好一点的问题。
So creating time in your meetings, but also, in your culture to ask slightly better questions.
所有这些一级的事情都有一个共同点，那就是它们会引发积极的搜索和回应。
All of these level one things have one thing in common, which is they provoke a positive search and response.
对。
Yes.
所以这其实就是一级问题的核心。
So that's really the the crux of level one.
它就是一个能引发积极回应的问题。
It just a question that's producing a positive
想法。
thought.
不总是积极的。
It's not always positive.
我相信有毒的积极，有毒的积极会很快毁掉对话的氛围。
I do believe in toxic positivity, and toxic positivity can kill a conversational vibe very quickly.
我们真正要找的是情感和故事。
What we're actually looking for is emotion and story.
好。
Okay.
对吧？
Right?
所以我会说，顺便提一下，我特别喜欢内向的人。
So I might say and by the way, the the my introverts, I love my introverts.
他们总会问，那要是对方说不喜欢呢？
They they always say, well, what if someone says they don't?
这时候你就问他：你个人有什么特别热衷的项目吗？
That you ask them, what's your personal passion project?
然后他们说，我没有。
And they say, I don't have one.
那太好了。
Well, great.
这真是个机会。
What an opportunity.
如果对方没有个人积极的目标，或者正经历困难、心情不好，你反而有机会跟他们建立更深的连接。
If someone doesn't have a personal positive project or they're going through a hard time or they're having a bad day, you have an opportunity to connect even better.
所以有时候，不一定非得是积极正面的事情。
So sometimes it doesn't have to be positive.
你是在寻找任何真实的情感流露。
You're looking for any kind of real emotion.
然后有人会说，你知道吗？
So then someone says, you know what?
我最近过得挺艰难的，而且说实话，这段时间也没什么精力去搞什么个人爱好项目了。
I've been really going through a hard time, and, you know, I haven't had much energy to work on personal passion these days.
这时候你就有了选择。
And then you have the choice.
你可以说，哇。
You can say, wow.
有什么我能帮忙的吗？
Is there anything I can do to help?
或者你可以问，你想聊聊吗？
Or you can say, do you wanna talk about it?
所以并不总是需要积极正面的。
So it's not always positive.
我们是在寻找真实的情感，最好还能有故事性。
It's looking for authentic emotions and, ideally, story.
这是我研究的另一位一级对话高手，杰瑞·宋飞就特别擅长这一点。
And this is another, one of the other master conversationalists I study who's excellent at level one is Jerry Seinfeld.
杰瑞·宋飞有个小小的对话技巧。
So Jerry Seinfeld has a little conversational trick.
好吗？
Alright?
这在书的第一章里提到过，他经常在活动后跟人见面，但对方因为太崇拜他而不知该说什么，场面特别尴尬。
This is in level one of the book, which is he often meets people after his event, and they're so starstruck by him that they don't know what to say, and conversation is really awkward.
他其实挺怕这种尴尬的见面场合。
He has a little awkward to meet.
他有个小窍门，对CEO和内向的人特别管用，就是问一个跟数字有关的问题。
He's developed a trick, and this works really well for CEOs and introverts, which is ask a numbers based question.
所以与其问你好吗？
So instead of how are you?
你知道，你住哪儿？
You know, where do you live?
比如你们俩在一起多久了？
So how long have you two been together?
如果对方说三十八年，你就接着问，那这三十八年里最精彩的部分是什么？
And then if it's thirty eight years, you say, oh, what's been the highlight of your thirty eight years?
如果时间很短，哦，那你们正处于热恋期。
If it's really short, oh, you're in the honeymoon phase.
最好的部分是什么？
What's the best part?
所以这是一个关于数字的问题。
So it's a numbers question.
这种方法对内向的人也很管用，因为它是基于事实的。
And this works really well for introverts as well is because it's fact based.
所以这就像是一个开场白。
So it it's like an opener.
然后通常从那里，就变成了一个故事的切入点。
And then usually from there, it's a jumping off point to a story.
所以并不是说第一层一定要是积极的。
So it's not that level one should always be positive.
如果能做到那就太好了。
That's great if it can be.
但实际上，更多的是有一个小的情绪或小的故事。
But practically speaking, it actually more is that there's a small p a small emotion or a small story.
好的。
Okay.
所以前几天，我在拉斯维加斯，做那种走红毯式的见面会，对。
So the other day, was in Las Vegas, and I was doing this sort of, step and repeat meet and greet thing Mhmm.
活动结束后。
After the event.
人们走过来，他们被引导着快速通过，所以我总想说点什么，在那段时间里多了解一点这个人。
And people come up, they're kind of ushering them through very So I always wanna, you know, say something to learn a little bit about a person in that time.
是的。
Yeah.
你有什么建议？
What would you recommend?
这也许对一般的社交场合都适用。
And this might be applicable for networking generally.
不。
No.
但你会推荐什么呢？
But what would you recommend?
好的。
Okay.
所以我总是在演讲后，比如签书时，问：‘你最喜欢的部分是什么？’或者‘你学到最多的是什么？’
So I always, whenever after speaking about book signing, say, was your favorite part or what did you learn the most?
所以我通常会问一个问题，让他们能带着收获离开。
So I immediately ask a question that I want them to take home with them.
这其实属于第二层，我们可以跳过这部分，不会讲得太远。
And that's actually level two, which we can we can skip we're not gonna skip too far ahead.
不过，你一直想学什么，或者正在学什么，这就涉及到了第二层的内容。
But what have you always wanted to learn or what are you learning is actually going to level two.
所以你可以这样问，特别是当对方刚刚花了一个小时听你讲话的时候。
So you can ask it, especially if someone's just spent an hour listening to you.
等一下。
Wait.
一级和二级有什么区别？
What's the difference between level one and level two?
好的。
Okay.
哦，抱歉。
Oh, sorry.
对。
Yes.
跳过去了。
Skipped ahead.
好的。
Okay.
那我们先把这个放一放。
So this we'll put a pin in this.
关于这个问题，我还想补充一点，就是去读一下这个框架。
One other thing I wanna say about that question is read this framework.
我读过Dan McKinnon提出的那个框架，当时我正在做对话方面的研究。
I read about Dan McKinnon's framework, and I was doing this conversation research.
后来我受邀参加了一个聚会，那是我参加过最奇怪的派对之一。
And then I got invited to a party, one of the weirdest parties I've ever been invited to.
我一进门，他们就让我把鞋脱了，这下我可就彻底融入进去了。
And I get in, and they tell me to take off my shoes, so I'm committed.
对吧？
Right?
我走不了。
I can't leave.
对。
Yeah.
然后他们就说，你猜怎么着？
And then they go, guess what?
这个派对有个规矩。
We have a rule for this party.
我当时就懵了，说啥？
I'm like, what?
他们说，不许聊自己的工作。
They're like, you cannot talk about what you do.
那是一场聚会，我觉得来的都是些非常成功的人。
Now this was a party of, I think, very other successful people.
我们大家都一脸懵，心想：啥？
And all of us are like, what?
因为我不知道你们怎么样，反正我觉得我的身份很大程度上是由我的工作来定义的。
Because I don't know about you, but I'm I'm pretty defined by by what I do.
我平时也总挂在嘴边。
I talk about it.
而且我很热爱它。
I love it.
所以我开始慌了。
So I start to panic.
我就想，如果不聊这个，那还能聊什么呢？
I'm like, what do you even talk about if you don't talk about that?
我们的对话里有很多都会绕到工作上。
So many of our conversations veer into work.
第一点，我的大脑立刻从自动驾驶模式切换出来，提问时得更有创意才行。
One, my brain was flipped off autopilot immediately, and had to get more creative with my questions.
我也得换个思路，心想干脆去挖掘他们工作之外的东西。
And I had to also think that I want I was like, I'm just gonna discover things outside of them.
我打算试着通过不问来摸清他们的职业。
I'm gonna try to figure out what they do by not asking.
那一刻我突然意识到，咱们应该把第一层的那三个基础问题当成寻宝游戏。
And that was an moment of we should treat level one, these three bottom questions, as a treasure hunt.
如果你抱着寻找对话中‘黄金’的心态去提问，你的出发点就完全不一样了。
That if you're going into it looking for some kind of conversational gold, your questions have much different intentions.
特别是，我最后问的是，如果不聊工作，你们平时都聊些什么？
And especially, what I ended up asking was, what do you talk about when you don't talk about work?
这其实是一种自由。
Which was sort of this freedom.
这让我们的对话有了这种自由度，我想告诉大家，真正好的聊天不必局限于那些老套又无聊的话题。
It gave us this freedom in conversation where I want to give everyone permission that really good conversation does not have to stick to the same old boring topics.
也不一定要聊你从事的工作。
It does not have to be what you do.
可以是任何让你投入或兴奋的事情。
It can be about anything that is engaging you or exciting you in that moment.
这就是第一层。
That is level one.
第二层。
Level two.
所以我们来看看性格特征。
So we have dental traits.
我们得从这儿开始。
We must start there.
不能太快跳到第二层。
We cannot skip too quickly to level two.
第二层叫个人关切。
Level two is called personal concerns.
在个人关切这里，我们才开始建立深层的连接。
Personal concerns is where we begin to connect deeply.
这涉及我们的动机、目标、价值观以及担忧。
This is our motivations, our goals, our values, our worries.
我猜在建立了一层的连接之后，你们才会进入第二层。
And I'm assuming you do level two once you've got past level one connection.
没错。
Exactly.
这就是我们深入交流的过程，我们在不断加深联系。
This is us going deeper We're going deeper.
人。
Person.
没错。
Exactly.
或者说是提升层次，随你怎么说都行。
Or or leveling up as you wish.
对吧？
Right?
随你便。
As you wish.
所以人们常犯的错误是跳过第一层。
So the mistake traps people make is they skip level one.
他们试图太快深入，让人觉得被冒犯了。
They try to go too deep quickly, and people feel like it's invasive.
对吧？
Right?
特别是当你觉得哇塞的时候。
Especially when you're like, woah.
放慢节奏，或者感觉像是在被审问一样。
Slow down or can feel like an interrogation.
所以我们要先把这些基础打好，只要做得更到位就行。
So we must know those basics first as long as we do them better.
不能只是机械地、无意识地去做。
Like, we don't do them on autopilot way.
第二步是开始理解什么在驱动一个人。
Level two is when you start to understand what motivates someone.
我常用的一个心理技巧是，如果你知道对方早上起床的动力是什么，比如整天推动他们的那个目标，同时也清楚他们夜里辗转反侧的担忧，那就说明你已经进入了第二步。
The kind of mental trick that I use is, you know you're on level two with someone if you know what gets them up in the morning, like what goal is driving them all day, but you also know what keeps them up at night.
对。
Mhmm.
让他们担心的是什么？
What worries them?
我建议大家，在读的时候，想想你平时接触最多的那五个人，然后给他们分个层级。
I, you know, I I encourage people as they're reading, like, of the five people you interact with most and place them on a level.
比如，你是不是只知道他们的一些基本情况？
Like, do you only know the basic facts about them?
或者你们的关系已经深入到了第三层，这个我们后面会讲到。
Are you all the way at level three, which we're gonna get to?
这样做有时候挺有帮助的，你会慢慢发现一些规律。
It's sometimes helpful you'll notice patterns.
我是不知道你们怎么样，但我特别喜欢第二层。
Like, I don't know about you, but I love level two.
我是说，我想尽快跨过第一层。
Like, I wanna get through level one as quickly as possible.
我想知道你的动力是什么。
I I wanna get to your motivations.
我想知道你那些不为人知的副业。
I wanna get to your secret side hustle.
我想了解你的梦想和热情所在。
I wanna get to your dreams and passions.
我想知道是什么让你夜不能寐，但我有时候可能会跳得太快。
I wanna know what keeps you up at night, but I can sometimes jump too fast.
第二层
Level
第二层是关于让一个人感到被倾听和被理解，这跟发现宝藏是不一样的。
two is about making someone feel heard and understood, and this is different than discovering treasure.
在第二层中，我们能做的最重要的技能，是我所说的‘梦想构建’。
And the biggest skill that we can do in level two is what I call dream building.
所谓梦想构建，就是每个人都有某种隐秘的渴望、秘密的梦想、副业或者热爱的事业。
So dream building is everyone has like a secret desire, a secret dream, a secret side hustle, secret passion.
你能否陪伴他们，帮他们把这些挖掘出来？
Can you be there and help them uncover it?
这就是第二层的目标。
That's the goal of level two.
那你能举个例子，讲讲怎么构建梦想吗？
So give me an example of dream building.
好的。
Okay.
在我们开始之前呢
So before we started
对。
Yeah.
我跟你说，我有个新目标。
I said to you, I have I have a new goal.
对吧？
Right?
比如，我正在策划一档电视节目。
Like, I'm I'm pitching a TV show.
这就是我的秘密副业。
That's, like, my secret side hustle.
这就是我的第二层境界。
That's level two for me.
这是我一直在悄悄努力的事情。
It's something that I've been working on secretly and quietly.
要是咱们一起吃午饭，我肯定早就跟你全盘托出了。
And if we were at lunch, we would've I told you all about it.
我们俩真是心有灵犀。
We double clicked on it.
所以这就是其中一个例子。
So that's an example of one.
再想一个例子，就是一个人会幻想些什么？
Another example to think about is what does someone daydream about?
是什么在积极占据着他们的思绪？
What is occupying their mind in a good way?
我给大家提供的另一个框架是‘宠物项目’或‘烦心项目’。
The other way that a framework that I give for folks is a pet or pest project.
那什么是某人的个人项目？
So what is someone's pet project?
就像家里的宠物一样，你会经常想着它、为它做梦、对它抱有期待。
Like a pet at home, you kinda think about it, you dream about it, you hope about it.
比如，某人希望达成什么目标、找到什么东西或者做些什么事？
Like, what is someone hoping to achieve or find or do?
那他们的个人项目又是什么呢？
And what is their pest project?
就像阁楼里的害虫，它让你一直操心。
Like a pest in the attic, it worries you.
你会想，怎么才能除掉这个害虫呢？
You wonder like, how can I get rid of that pest?
怎样才能彻底根除它？
How can I eradicate it?
他们希望得到帮助，但又不敢开口。
And they want help with it, but they're too afraid to ask.
那些让人头疼的项目往往伴随着不少羞耻感。
Pest projects have a lot of shame.
在第二层，人们需要感到足够安全，才愿意袒露自己觉得羞愧的事情。
On Level 2, people have to feel safe enough to expose what they feel shame about.
而那些他们珍爱的项目，则充满了自豪感。
But pet projects, the things they love have a lot of pride.
所以你在对话中要试着判断，能不能让对方感到足够安全，从而分享其中任何一类呢？
And so you're trying to figure out in conversation, could you let someone feel safe enough to share either one?
有没有哪些问题能激发人们去构建梦想？
And are there questions that evoke dream building?
有。
Yes.
好的。
Okay.
所以，‘你一直想学什么’这个问题挺有意思的，因为它能触发成长型思维。
So what have you always wanted to learn is an interesting question because it it triggers growth mindset.
对吧？
Right?
所以成长型思维就是相信自己能改变，改变自己的性格、人生轨迹，或者学点新东西。
So growth mindset is when someone believes they can change themselves, change who they are, change their trajectory, learn something new.
我们喜欢这个问题，因为它其实是在问：你愿意和我一起成长吗？
So we like this question because you're asking, are you willing to grow with me?
你有什么一直想学的东西吗？
What have you always wanted to learn?
另一个简单的问题是，你目前最大的目标是什么？
The other easy one is what is your biggest goal right now?
所以问你现在最大的目标是什么是个很好的问题，而且你还可以加上时间限定。
So what is your biggest goal right now is a great question, and you can also time anchor it.
每当有人过生日的时候，你就可以问，你今年的大目标是什么？
Anytime someone has a birthday, you can ask, what's your big goal this year?
这其实属于第二层次的问题。
That's actually a level two question.
对吧？
Right?
这就像是在一个安全的环境里帮他们提升自我，因为他们聊的是自己的生日。
You're like, like leveling them up in a safe way because they're talking about their birthday.
每到新年前后，也就是十二月和一月的时候，我会问所有认识的人：你现在的最大目标是什么？
Any around New Year's, January and December, I ask everyone I know, what's your biggest goal right now?
新的季度，新的绩效考核。
New quarter, new performance review.
当我们谈论目标时，会激活大脑中触发多巴胺的区域。
When we talk about goals, it activates a part of our brain that triggers dopamine.
当我们思考未来的自己时，会激发内心渴望被激励的那部分自我。
When we think about our future self, it activates a part of ourselves that wants to get motivated.
所以，二级问题也能给人带来动力，在对话中让他们发现自己性格中的某个侧面。
And so level two is also giving someone motivation that in conversation, they're actually discovering an aspect of themselves.
他们是在挖掘自身内在的动力源泉。
They're tapping to their own resource for motivation.
这让他们可以稍微大胆地梦想一下，并且
It gives them permission to dream a little bit and to
对。
Yeah.
你是在激发他们本就拥有的动力，只是把它带入到对话中而已。
And you're giving them the motivation that they already have, but you're bringing it into the conversation.
我觉得最近我们太关注内在自我了。
I think recently, we are so into intrapersonal.
就像现在社交媒体上很多内容都是关于心态、口号、肯定语和效率提升的。
Like a lot of what you see on social media right now is mindset and mantra and affirmation and productivity.
我很喜欢这些东西，但这意味着人们其实是在独自利用这些兴奋感，比如写日记、冥想或者处理待办事项的时候。
And I love all of those things, but that means that people are actually using all that excitement alone when they're journaling or when they're meditating or when they're working on their to do list.
我注意到，我们好像忘了把这些目标带入对话中。
We have forgotten, I've noticed, to bring those goals into conversation.
我们甚至觉得有点不好意思。
We're almost, like, embarrassed.
我不知道你有没有注意到，但感觉大家好像都不好意思谈论自己的副业，或者不好意思聊起自己私下的爱好。
I don't know if you've noticed this, but I've it's almost like people are like embarrassed to talk about their secret side hustle, or they're embarrassed to talk about their secret passion.
如果我们允许别人把私下里一直激励他们的那些东西带到对话中来，你就能成为他们的盟友。
If we give someone permission to bring in what they have been motivated about privately into conversation, they get you get to be an ally.
你觉得
What do
当你问这类第二层的问题时，会不会让人觉得像是撞到了死胡同？
feel met with a dead end when you ask these kind of level two questions?
那你就可以回答了。
Well, then you get to answer.
因为有些人还没完全搞清楚自己最大的目标是什么。
Because some people haven't quite figured out what their biggest goal is.
没错。
Absolutely.
特别是有时候，内向的人在对话中……我问过成千上万的人这些问题，每次问的时候都会发生各种各样的情况。
Especially also sometimes, introverts in conversation and I've asked these questions to thousands of people, and all different kinds of things happen when I do that.
内向的人也需要更多时间来消化这些信息。
Introverts also need more time to process.
所以你可以问问他们，比如现在在学什么，或者最大的目标是什么？
So you might ask them, you know, what are you learning right now, or what's your biggest goal?
他们当时可能一下子答不上来。
And they might, in the moment, not know.
他们只是需要一点时间去整理思路。
They just need a little bit of time to process.
所以如果对方还没有想好，那也没关系。
And so two things can happen is if they don't have it yet, that's okay.
这也是一个你可以分享自己想法的机会。
You also have opportunity to share.
不过，如果我问这个问题，我有点担心，因为我知道很多出租车司机都在听这个播客，我经常坐他们的车，我们也聊过这个话题。
But what if I, you know, I ask I'm thinking because, you know, I know a lot of, taxi drivers listen to this podcast because I get into taxi, so we talked about it.
我觉得这主意特别好。
I love it.
出租车司机啊，你知道的，他们都很健谈，而且往往聊得特别好。
Taxi drivers, you know, they're conversationalists, often very good ones.
但有时候，我想，出租车司机可能会遇到后座乘客不想说话的情况。
But sometimes, I guess, a taxi driver might be faced with the scenario where the person in the back seat doesn't wanna talk.
这时候他们可能会抛出一些这种基础问题，比如那些入门级的话题，结果却像撞上了砖墙一样，完全没回应。
And they might hit them with one of these, you know, level ones and then the level twos, and they're just getting brick walls.
那我会尊重对方的意愿。
Then I would respect that.
对吧？
Right?
如果对方不想跟你聊天，
If someone doesn't wanna talk to you
那你就直接撤吗？
Do you just back out?
对。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
因为他们正在经历自己的事情。
Because then they're going through their own thing.
对吧？
Right?
就像，如果你必须拥有被讨厌的勇气。
Like, if if you have to have also courage to be disliked.
对吧？
Right?
比如，你可以在对话中尽力而为。
Like, you can try your best in conversation.
你可以提出最好的问题。
You can bring the best questions.
但如果对方不是你要找的人，或者他们还没准备好建立联系，你又何必浪费精力呢？
But if someone is not your person or they are not ready to connect, why would you waste your energy on that?
所以我觉得，问这些问题其实就像是一种试探。
So I also think that asking some of these are like bids.
这就像是在试探，看看咱们能不能这样互动？
It's like a bid to see like, can we can we do this?
你想跟我斗嘴吗？
You wanna banter with me?
我们要不要先聊点轻松的？
Should we have level one?
要不要再深入一点，试试第二层？
Should we even dip into level two?
太好了。
Great.
如果不行的话，也没关系。
If not, cool.
那说明对方可能不是你的那个人。
They're not your person.
他们今天状态不对。
It's not their day.
那如果他们没接茬呢？
So if they don't take the bait?
没关系。
It's okay.
好的。
Okay.
那些搞技术的通常都会问我，今天有什么好玩的吗？
I the tech drivers usually ask me, got anything exciting today?
我们要去什么有趣的地方吗？
Are we going anywhere exciting?
太好了。
Great.
这对第一层来说是个很棒的交换。
That's a great swap for level one.
顺便提一下，这些问题只是建议。
Should say, by the way, these questions are suggestions.
如果你能根据具体情况调整一下，那就更好了。
If you can modify them to the to fit what you are doing even better.
比如，我和你在签售会上，或者是在演讲活动后见面。
Like, for example, you and I are in book signings or we we are meeting you after speaking events.
这时候我们调整学习目标类的问题就很合理，比如说：嘿。
It makes sense for us to modify the learning or goal question to say, hey.
我们知道你学到了什么。
We know what did you learn?
或者你有没有学到什么新东西？
Or did you learn anything new?
或者你最喜欢哪部分？
Or what was your favorite part?
对吧？
Right?
我们针对这种情况做了调整。
We're modifying that for us.
出租车司机可能会把它改成：今天要去什么有趣的地方吗？
A tax driver is gonna modify it for are we heading anywhere exciting?
今天有什么特别安排吗？
Do we need anything exciting today?
所以这些只是建议，不是硬性规定。
So these are not prescriptions.
这些只是指南，目的是让研究成果更具实用性。
They are guidelines to try to make the research applicable.
我职业生涯的大部分时间都在研究文献、阅读学术论文，有些论文洋洋洒洒三十页全是专业术语，最后才给出一个核心观点。
I've spent most of my career looking at research, reading academic studies, and some of them are 30 pages of jargon with one nugget.
丹·麦克亚当的研究真的非常精彩。
And Dan McAdam's research is so incredible.
但当我第一次读它的时候，我不知道该怎么应用。
But when I first read it, I did not know how to use it.
我当时觉得，像一些普遍的特质啊、个人的顾虑之类的，第一层我还不太确定。
I was like, general traits, personal concerns, like level one wasn't sure.
所以这些方法主要是用来激活行为研究的，也就是指导我们所有互动的准则，但你可以根据实际情况灵活调整，让它适合你。
So a lot of these are just ways to activate the behavioral research, the guideline that's driving all of our interactions, but you get to have flexibility with it as it works for you.
第一层的目标是寻宝游戏，让人放松下来，问问他们喜欢什么，收集故事。
The goal in level one, treasure hunt, put someone at ease, Ask them about what they love, harvest story.
第二层的目标是让对方有勇气分享自己的梦想、隐秘的愿望或者内心的担忧。
The goal of level two is to give someone permission to share a dream, a secret desire, or a secret worry.
第三层，等你准备好了我们再深入探讨。
And level three, we get to get to in a little bit when you're ready.
哦，我们还有一个层级，就是第三层。
Oh, we have one more level level three.
稍等一下。
Hold on.
第二层的问题。
Level two question.
这些问题，是的。
On these questions Yes.
你真的得在意对方的回答吗？
Do you have to actually care about the answer?
你真的需要真诚地关心他们现在最大的目标是什么，或者他们的个人热情项目是什么吗？
Do you have to authentically care about what their biggest goal is right now or what their personal passion project is?
如果你其实并不在意，这有关系吗？
Does it matter if you don't actually care?
有时候在聊天中，我也不确定自己是否真的在意。
There have been times in conversation where I'm not sure if I care yet.
所以我会说，你暂时还没那么在意。
So I would say, you don't care yet.
如果你问了问题，自己也没完全投入，但对方给出的答案却深深触动了你，或者让你非常关心，那会怎样呢？
What if you ask the question and you're not sure, you're not bought in yet, but then you hear an answer that deeply resonates with you or you deeply care about.
我觉得我们刚认识一个人时，往往不知道自己以后会不会真的在意他。
I think we don't know always if we're gonna care about someone because we've just met them.
但也许你会的。
But maybe you will.
对吧？
Right?
毕竟你永远不知道谁会成为你最好的朋友。
Like, you never know who's gonna be your next best friend.
对吧？
Right?
你永远不知道，什么时候会听到某个瞬间，从而彻底改变你的事业。
You never know when when you're gonna hear an moment that's gonna change your business.
就像我事业中的许多转折点，都来自那些随机的对话。我只是碰巧问对了问题，对方就给了我一个绝妙的建议。
Like, so many of the pivot points in my business have been from random conversations where I happen to ask the right question and someone gives me a brilliant piece of advice.
那么，假装关心是可以的吗？
So is it okay to pretend to care?
只要你愿意去问这个问题，就说明你已经在乎了，至少在乎到愿意去尝试。
If you're asking the question you care enough to try.
既然你在听这个播客，说明你已经足够在意了，心里肯定在想：我知道自己该这么做。
If you're listening to this podcast, you already care enough to be like, I know I should.
我知道自己应该成为一个出色的谈话高手。
I know I should be a master conversationalist.
我合作过的很多领导者，他们可能感觉不到那种温暖，但他们知道自己需要展现出亲和力。
So many leaders who I work with, they might not feel warm, but they know they need to be warm.
我觉得这份心意已经足够了。
I think that's intent enough.
对吧？
Right?
我们只要找到适合你的那些就行。
We just gotta find the ones that work for you.
你刚才提到了一些会聊到死胡同的问题，比如问‘你是做什么的’。
And you talked a second ago about these questions that lead to dead ends, which are like, what you do.
你还举了哪些其他例子？
What are the other examples you gave?
好的。
Okay.
我有个问题，我真的特别讨厌它。
I have a a question that I I hate a lot.
我是真的非常讨厌这个问题。
I hate it a lot.
我希望它从我们的日常用语里彻底消失。
I want it to leave our vocabulary.
这简直是聊天史上最烂的问题。
It's the worst question in history of conversation.
确实是这样。
It is.
最近忙吗？
Been busy?
好的。
Okay.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Right.
比如
Like
最近挺忙的。
Been busy.
你是做什么的？
What do you do?
当你处于那种‘是的’回答的另一端时，
When you're on the receiving end of those kinds of Yes.
面对这种问题，你该怎么应对呢？
Questions what what how do I counter that?
因为以后我在这儿肯定会经常遇到这种情况。
Because I'm gonna get that everywhere in here forever.
所以，是的。
So Yes.
那我该怎么回应呢？
How do I counter that?
好的。
Okay.
所以首先，问无聊的问题会让你自己也变得无趣。
So every time first of all, boring questions make you boring.
我们都清楚这一点。
We know this.
但别人问你那些无聊的问题，其实是个机会。
But boring questions asked of you are an opportunity.
说实话，我觉得如果你能跳出常规套路来回应他们那些无聊的问题，真的会让他们感到惊喜和开心。
In fact, I think you can really surprise and delight someone by breaking the script on their boring question.
你肯定会经常被问到各种无聊的问题。
You are going to be asked a lot of boring questions.
咱们来聊聊两个类别。
Let's talk about two buckets here.
第一个类别是当有人问你，你是做什么的？
The first bucket is when you're asked, what do you do?
你肯定会被问很多次。
And you're gonna be asked a lot.
你得准备一个精彩的回答才行。
You better have a great answer.
我觉得，针对‘你是做什么的’这个问题给出一个精彩的回答，其实是在为自己创造机会。
I think having a great answer to what do you do is creating opportunities for yourself.
大多数人在这件事上容易犯个错——我在书里专门有一章讲这个——就是当别人问你是做什么的时候，他们其实是在寻找某种线索，对吧？
What most people make the mistake of with what do do, and I have an entire chapter about it in the book, is when you're asked what do you do, they're looking for something, right?
他们想借此了解你是谁。
They're trying to understand who you are.
甚至可能是在评估你的价值。
Maybe they're even asking what are you worth?
也许吧。
Maybe.
所以现在主动权在你手里，你可以打破常规，给他们一个惊喜。
So now the ball is in your court to break the script and to surprise them.
你的回答既要清楚说明自己是做什么的，又要留一点引子，让他们产生兴趣。
You wanna give an answer that explains exactly what you do, but then gives them a little bit of a hook.
就是说制造那种好奇心缺口。
As in like creates that curiosity gap.
稍微留点信息差，制造一点好奇心。
A little bit of an a little bit of information gap, a little bit of curiosity.
但咱们别把事儿搞复杂了，也别含糊其辞。
And we don't want to overcomplicate or be vague.
举个例子，我当时坐在一家咖啡馆里。
So for example, I was sitting in a coffee shop.
我在为这本书做调研，顺便偷听周围人的聊天，因为这是最好的方式。
I was researching this book, and I was eavesdropping on everyone's conversations because that's the best way.
你知道的，如果你听过《荒野对话》那档节目，你会发现里面的内容都很精彩。
You know, if you listen to Conversations in the Wild, the things you hear are great.
我当时正用电脑听，听到她说：‘苏，你是做什么的？’
And I was on my computer, and I heard, she said, Sue, what do you do?
我觉得他们当时好像在约会。
I think they were on, like, a date.
然后他回答说：‘哦，我有一套帮助年轻学习者实现最大成就的方法。’
And he goes, oh, I have a system for maximizing achievement in young learners.
她当时就懵了，说啥？
And she was like, what?
他说，对啊，我教五年级学生，有一套帮他们学数学和阅读的方法。
And he goes, yeah, I work with fifth grade students, and I have a system for how they can learn math and reading.
她说，哦，原来你是老师啊。
And she goes, oh, you're a teacher.
他说，对，我就是个五年级老师。
He goes, yeah, I'm a fifth grade teacher.
我当时就想，哇。
And I was like, wow.
他这么说的本意是想显得有趣一点。
The intention there was to be interesting.
对吧？
Right?
他本来不想只说自己是五年级老师，但给这段对话加了太多信息量，就像给大脑喂了太多‘对话卡路里’一样。
He didn't want to say I'm just a fifth grade teacher, but he gave the brain too many calories, like conversation calories.
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