播放次数最多的片段：一种无负罪感的工作与生活方式

当我在这档播客里和CEO、创始人以及职场父母们坐下来聊天时，有一个话题反复出现：你越是要兼顾的事情多，家里和购物就越不能成为额外的负担。

When I sit down with CEOs, founders, and working parents on this podcast, one thing that comes up again and again is the more you have to juggle, the more important it is that home and shopping for it isn't adding to that load.

本期节目由Wayfair赞助，他们深知我们周围的空间应该支持我们的生活方式。

This moment's episode is sponsored by Wayfair, who understand that the spaces around us should support how we live.

接下来是Nicola Kilner，她会谈谈自己建立的一些系统，让工作和家庭更好地协调。

Here is Nicola Kilner talking about some of the systems that she's built to make work and home fit together better.

你现在对大学怎么看？

What's your opinion now on university?

当你的孩子到了要做出这个决定的年龄，你有两个年幼的孩子。

When your children get to that age where they're about to make that decision, you've got two young children.

当他们到了18岁，如果他们跟你说：“妈妈，我想像你一样当企业家，”根据你的经验，你会给他们什么建议？

When they get to 18 years old, and if they said, "Mommy, I want to be entrepreneur like you," what advice would you give them based on your experience?

其实我可能总是会建议先在职场干几年，因为我必须说，在Boots我学到了很多。

So I actually would always probably recommend doing a few years in a corporate because I have to say at Boots I learnt so much.

你会学到他们做得特别好的地方。

You learn the things that they do really well.

你会学到他们做得不太对的地方，或者说，作为大公司的一些弊端。

You learn the things that they do, not necessarily wrong, but just the drawbacks of being such a big organization.

所以我觉得，比起上大学，我在Boots实习的那两年学到的东西真的非常多。

So I think, more than going to university, the two placement years I did at Boots, I learned incredibly so much.

而且，取决于你是什么样的人，如果你去一家大公司，要融入那里的文化真的很难，因为人太多了，历史也太久了。

And depending on the kind of person you are, if you go to a big corporate, it's so difficult to input the culture there because there's just so many people, there's so much history.

如果你是一个特别有动力去改变的人，那么创业我觉得真的是一个很棒的方向。

And if you are someone who's kind of got this strong drive to make a change, then entrepreneurship I think is just an incredible area.

即使不是你自己创业，去加入一家初创公司也会让你感受到不可思议的能量，这永远是我会推荐的做法。

And even if it's not your idea, but going to join a startup is just incredible energy, and it just would always be what I would recommend.

那时候，你在Boots这样的公司工作期间，有没有学到一些关键技能或者一套技能，后来对你特别有帮助？这些技能是什么？

At that point, if there was a key skill or a key set of skills that you took from your time working in a corporate at Boots that then proved to be incredibly valuable as you went on, what were those skills?

我毕业之后留了下来，一开始是助理采购，后来被提升为采购经理，这主要涉及人际关系。

So when I graduated, I then stayed on and I was an assistant buyer to begin with, and then I got promoted to be a buying manager for them, which was really around relationships.

这关乎协作。

It was about collaboration.

就是放眼全球，寻找新技术、新创意和新品牌，然后手把手地带着这些创业者进入博姿，向他们展示，'看，我们可以这样推出产品。'

It was about looking around the world, seeing new technologies, finding the innovation, new brands, and then really handholding those, which mainly were entrepreneurs, to come into Boots to actually show them, "Look, this is how we could launch."

我们有一个展位，叫'最新发现'。

We had a stand, it was called Latest Finds.

我们会试推一个创新产品三个月，看看效果如何。

We would launch a new innovation for a period of three months as a trial to see if it would work.

博姿的顾客会喜欢吗？

Would Boots consumers like this?

如果反响好，他们就能长期入驻博姿。

If it did, they would get a listing with Boots kind of long term.

这个角色特别适合我，因为它非常具有创业精神。实际上，我主要指导他们与公关公司合作，制定计划。我们常说'推出并爱上'，因为在博姿上架是一回事，但真正让顾客拿起并买走你的产品又是另一回事。

And that just really suited my skill set because it was a very entrepreneurial role, because actually, I very much guided them with PR agencies and actually how to build a plan and we used to have a saying of launch and love, because actually it's one thing to get a listing at Boots, it's another thing for your product to actually be picked and taken off the shelf.

上架只是第一步。

The listing is just the first thing.

你还得吸引消费者。

You have to drive consumers.

你得有完整的计划。

You had to have that entire plan.

我觉得这真的是一个很好的学习方式，跟供应链、财务合作，还要跟法务确认。

And I think it was just a really good way of actually learning from working with supply chain, working with finance, doing the checks with legal.

我们能这么做吗？

Can we do this?

我们能说什么？

What can we say?

这真的是一个很好的体验，跟这么多不同的部门合作，开始了解消费品，学习需求，学习怎么创造需求。

It was a really good sense of actually working with so many different departments and actually starting to understand, I think, consumer goods, learning demand, learning how to create it.

所以我觉得这个角色就是为我量身定做的，非常适合我的技能，我对此非常感激。

So I feel like that role was created, which really just suited my skill set incredibly well, and I'm very fortunate for that.

然后我也是这样认识布兰登的。

And then that's also how I met Brandon.

所以这对我下一阶段的发展也产生了很大的影响。

So actually, it had a huge impact in obviously my next stage too.

布兰登是不是你之前可能看过的那个生意？

And Brandon was a business you were maybe-- He had a business you were maybe looking at or-

他当时在做他的上一个公司，叫Indeed Labs，我们通过这个项目“最新发现”推出了他们的几个产品。

So he was with his previous business, which was called Indeed Labs, and we launched a couple of their products through this program, Latest Finds.

所以我跟他合作过，我记得，现在听起来可能有点不可思议，但那是很多年前了，那时候你离开办公室就查不了邮件。

So I'd worked with him, and I remember, and actually this sounds alien now, so many years ago, but you couldn't check your emails when you left the office.

所以经常每天早上我来的时候，都要处理很多国际创业者的邮件。

So often, every morning I'd come in and I was dealing with a lot of international entrepreneurs.

所以我总是看到收件箱里堆满了邮件，而且我总是会找他的名字，因为他的邮件总是充满活力。

So I'd always come into an inbox full of emails, and I always remember looking for his name because his email was always so full of energy.

他总是在邮件结尾写：“微笑，布兰登。”

He always signed it off, "Smiles, Brandon."

你知道，就是那种积极和热情特别能感染人的人，所以我总是先看他的邮件，打开看，而且我们跟布兰登在Indeed Labs做的那些发布，是我们创新项目里最成功的几个之一。

You know just someone whose positivity, his passion just kind of really shone through, that I'd always go straight to his emails, kind of open it and the launches that we did with Brandon at Indeed Labs were some of the most successful we did through the innovation program.

而且他每次来诺丁汉的Boots总部，那种感染力强的能量简直能把墙都震得嗡嗡响。

And he was just, when he used to come to the Boots head office in Nottingham, just it was bouncing off the walls with kind of this infectious energy.

我记得从见到他的第一天起就想，天哪，我这一辈子都想让这个人出现在我的生活里，因为他就是有那种气场，而且你知道他是真心想让世界变得更好，特别在乎做好事、做不一样的事。

And I remember just from the day I met him thinking, "Gosh, I always want this person in my life," because he just had this aura and just someone who you knew wanted to actually also make the world a better place and kind of really cared about doing good and doing things differently.

那后来某个时候，你们就开始私下聊起创业的事，聊你自己创业，然后他也在创业，对吧？

And at some point, you start having a conversation with him privately about launching a business, your own business, and then he's launching his business, right?

我记得他突然离开了Indeed Labs。

So I remember he suddenly left Indeed Labs.

其实Indeed Labs是他创立的。

Now, Indeed Labs, he founded it.

那家公司发展得特别快。

It was a rocket ship.

当时做得非常好。

It was kind of doing super well.

我记得收到他离开的消息时，特别震惊，心想发生什么事了？

And I remember getting this message from him that he left and just being shocked as in like, what has happened?

所以后来他下次来伦敦的时候，我就去见他，他当然也跟我讲了他离开的原因。

So then when he was next in London, I met up with him, and obviously he told me about his reasons for leaving.

他打算去做下一件事。

He was going to do this next thing.

我一直都有想自己创业的想法。

And I'd always kind of had this viewpoint of wanting to do my own business.

自从我在美妆行业工作以来，我发现总有朋友、家人，每个人都在问：“什么睫毛膏最好？”

And ever since I worked in beauty, I found that I always had friends, family, everyone asking, "What's the best mascara?

“什么粉底最好？”

What's the best foundation?"

就像我们会去TripAdvisor看餐厅和酒店的评分和评论一样。

And just how we'd go to TripAdvisor to look at kind of ratings and reviews for restaurants and hotels.

我想为美妆行业也创建一个类似的平台，真正给产品排名。

I wanted to create the same thing for beauty that actually ranked the products.

所以我把我的想法告诉了布兰登，说：“我想做这个。”

So I told Brandon my idea and said, "I want to do this.

你觉得怎么样？

What do you think?

你有什么建议吗？

Do you have any advice?"

他告诉我他想创办一个叫DECIEM的品牌，这个名字源自拉丁语，意思是数字10。

He told me he wanted to start something called DECIEM, which was from the Latin word for the number 10.

那时候它并不是为了做美妆而设计的。虽然有一个美妆的概念，但也有科技的概念、食品的概念，所以就是很多不同的想法在涌现，但都是基于同时做10件事的理念。

It wasn't designed to be a beauty engine at that time There was a beauty concept, but there was a technology concept, there was a food concept, so kind of just lots of different ideas generating, but with this viewpoint of doing 10 things at once.

所以我们就说：“你不如来帮我一起做DECIEM，我来帮你做美妆部分，”我们后来把那个美妆部分叫做Beauty Wise，“我们一起做。”

So we said, "Why don't you come and help do DECIEM with me, and I'll help do the beauty," we went on to call it Beauty Wise, "with you."

所以后来我显然做出了离开Boots的决定，那时候我大概23、24岁。

So then obviously I made the decision to leave Boots, which obviously I was at the age of 24, 23, 24.

我记得告诉妈妈和其他人，大家都说：“哇，你在一个很好的公司，已经取得了一些成就。”

And I remember telling Mom and everyone's like, "Ooh, you're in a really good business, you're already achieving things."

但我知道自己不会永远待在那里。

But I just knew that I wasn't meant to be there forever.

所以，是的，我10年前离开了，然后DECIEM就开始了。

So yeah, I left 10 years ago, and then it was the start of DECIEM.

我得说，同时做十个品牌这个想法，看起来跟任何商业书里强调专注的重要性都是相悖的。

I've got to say, this idea of doing 10 brands at once seems like it's counterintuitive to anything you might read in a business book that speaks to the importance of focus.

你觉得这样有道理吗？

Was there any sense in that, in your view?

其实我们在墨尔本的办公室里，墙上曾经挂着“专注被高估了”这句话，因为所有人都告诉你不要同时做十件事。

So in actually our office in Melbourne, we used to have on the wall, "Focus is overrated," because everyone does tell you not to do 10 things at once.

而且实际上，同时做十件事有很多好处。

And actually, there were so many benefits to doing 10 things at once.

首先，这个观点是试图建立一个生态系统，比如我们如何拥有自己的制造，如何内部处理自己的传播？

So first of all, was this viewpoint of trying to create this ecosystem of how do we have our own manufacturing, do our own comms in-house?

因为，再说一次，建立这个生态系统需要资金，但也有很多创业者，我理解他们为什么处于这种状况，但很多创业者不得不外包所有事情。

Because, and again, it takes funds to set up that ecosystem, but also so many entrepreneurs, which I understand why they're in this situation, but so many entrepreneurs have to outsource everything.

他们去找公关公司，去找实验室，找人做研发。

They go to the PR agency, they go to a lab, they go to someone to do your R&D.

然后你实际上只是在协调所有这些努力，而不是……所以，能够建立这个整个生态系统是一种特权，因为那样的话，大家都坐在桌前，每个人都在产生想法。

And then you're really just coordinating all of those efforts rather than, so it was a privilege we could build this whole ecosystem because then at the table, everyone's sat there, everyone's generating ideas.

再说，如果考虑自己做传播，一个品牌要承担的费用很高，但如果有10个品牌，突然就可以把它看作每个人工资的10%。

And again, if I think around doing comms in-house, it's a lot for one brand to pay, but if you've got 10 brands, suddenly you can look at it as 10% of everyone's salary.

如果我飞往澳大利亚去采购，我是只展示一个品牌呢，还是展示10个品牌？

If I'm flying to Australia, to me to buy, well, do I want to present one brand or do I present 10 brands?

而且，在消费品领域，你不知道什么会成功，直到它开始卖起来，你才能真正知道它会怎么样。

And also just this area of you don't know what's going to, if you're in consumer brand, until it starts selling, you don't really know what's going to be.

你可以做世界上所有的研究和洞察。

You can do all the research and all of the insights in the world.

但在某个产品获得市场认可之前，你真的不知道什么会有效。

Until something gets traction, you don't really know what's going to work.

所以这也建立了一个很棒的结构，我们可以失败，可以不断尝试，可以相对低成本、快速地失败，然后开始下一个项目。

So it also just set up this incredible structure that we could fail, we could keep trying things, we could fail relatively cheaply, quickly, and start the next thing.

那么，做10个品牌的缺点是什么呢？

What's the downside, though, of doing 10 brands?

我觉得缺点在后期显现出来，因为The Ordinary已经变得非常成功。

So I'd say the downside in the later years is because The Ordinary has become such a huge success.

当The Ordinary火起来之后，其他品牌就被挤到一边了，因为如果你有一个品牌占据了收入的很大一部分，那确实很难平衡。

When The Ordinary took off, the other brands got pushed aside because it's very difficult if you have one brand that's really driving such a huge portion of your revenues.

当大家工作压力都很大的时候，那个品牌总是会被优先处理。

When everyone is facing high workload, that always gets prioritized.

所以最后你就会忽略其他品牌，而不是像它们有专门团队那样去照顾。

So then you end up ignoring the other brands versus if they had a dedicated team.

现在我们其实想重新启动我们的孵化器引擎，而唯一的方法就是给这个项目配备一个专门的团队。

And it's something now we want to actually restart our incubator engine, and actually the only way we can do that is by having a dedicated team to that.

所以确实有不利的一面。

So there are downsides.

我觉得对我们来说，另一个很重要的因素是，作为初创公司我们资金不多，当然想招很多人，但负担不起有经验的人才。

I think the other thing that made a huge difference for us, because we didn't have much money as a startup, and we obviously wanted to hire all of these people, we couldn't afford experience.

所以招进来的几乎都是刚毕业的大学生，刚出校门，第一次找工作。

So everyone who was hired was pretty much straight out of university, straight out of college, just applied for their first job.

而实际上，这意味着没有人对美妆行业有先入为主的观念，也没有人觉得事情应该按某种固定方式来做。

And actually, that meant no one really had preconditioned ideas about the beauty industry, about the way things should be.

每个人几乎都是从非常实际的角度来看待这件事的。

Everyone was approaching it just with almost a very practical viewpoint.

而且我觉得这也带来了很大的不同，就是怎么去换一种思路，怎么去做别人没在做的事情。

And I think that made a big difference, too, with actually this how do we think differently, how do we do what others aren't doing?

这几乎从来不需要讨论，因为大家都没在那些大集团工作过——

It was almost never something that had to be discussed because people hadn't worked-

没在那些——

Been in a-

……待过那么多年。

... for the other conglomerates for all the years.

不久之后，你和布兰登成了联合CEO。

Soon after, you become co-CEOs with Brandon.

我经常想到联合创始人的关系，就像阴阳互补，联合创始人之间需要什么样的平衡。

I always think about co-founder relationships and people being yin and yang and what the kind of right balance is for co-founders.

而你们的情况，你们走到一起的方式很特别。

In your case, the way that you came together was quite unique.

一开始我们并没有想成为联合创始人。

There wasn't an initial interest in being co-founders.

你们俩本来打算各做各的。

You were both going to do two separate things.

后来你们慢慢被彼此吸引。

You then kind of got drawn towards each other.

如果我把你的性格放在这边，布兰登的放在那边，你们有什么不同？

If I put your personality on this side and Brandon's here, what are the differences?

他们是怎么互补的，又有什么不互补的地方？

How are they complementary but also uncomplementary?

布兰登是个很古怪的人。

So Brandon was eccentric.

对，听起来确实是这样。

Yeah, it sounds like it.

我觉得我们俩都非常有热情。

I'd say we were both very passionate.

他更古怪一些，而我更冷静，我觉得这是很大的不同。

He was a lot more eccentric and I'm a lot more calm, I think would be a big difference.

但我觉得，从技能上来说，他在科学方面是个天才。

But I guess, but also from a skill set, he was a genius when it came to science.

他原本是搞技术的，所以他对事情的理解非常，他不理解灰色地带。

He was a tech person originally, so he came from things with a very, he didn't understand gray.

事情就是非黑即白，实际上，我觉得这正是研究美容产品科学的一个好方法。

It was black and white, and actually, that was quite a good way to actually approach the science, I think, behind beauty products.

他有时候脾气比较急。

He was at times short-tempered.

我负责调和，而他则有点容易冲动。

I'd be the kind of smoothing things out, and he would kind of be a little bit more hot-headed.

但话说回来，我觉得创业文化不是每个人都适合，但对我来说，最初那几年真的很棒。

But again, I think it was a startup culture is not for everyone, but for me, those first few years were incredible.

而且他还有一种很神奇的能力，能让事情变得有趣。

But he also just had this amazing way of making things fun.

比如我们计划出差开会的时候，他会优先考虑我们要去哪些餐厅。

Like when we would plan trips to go on meetings, he would be prioritizing which restaurants we were going to.

哪里的冰淇淋最好吃？

Where's got the best ice cream?

我们到那儿要做什么？

What are we going to go and do here?

其实工作反而是顺带的事情。

And actually, the work was something that came alongside it.

他有自己的理念，他想建立一个大家庭。

He had this philosophy, he wanted to build a family.

他小时候过得很不容易。

He'd had a troubled upbringing.

我觉得他其实有个模式，就是每当生意快要成功的时候，他总会选择离开。

I think he'd actually had this pattern, I think, of always leaving a business when it kind of just went on the verge of success.

DECIEM是他的第四家公司。

DECIEM was his fourth business.

他做过科技公司，后来又做了两家美妆公司，先是UOCO，然后是Indeed，最后才是DECIEM。

He had a tech business, then he had two beauty businesses, UOCO, then Indeed before DECIEM.

每次真正让他难受的，其实是离开那些关系和伙伴。

And each time what hurt him was actually leaving the relationships and the people behind.

所以他对DECIEM的看法是，怎么建立一个像家人一样的团队？

So his viewpoint of DECIEM was actually, how do we build a family, like a work family?

但我觉得对他来说，那从来不是工作，我想这也是我们很多人共同的感受。

But I think he It was never work, and I think that's what so many of us felt.

周末、晚上，我们都想待在DECIEM，因为大家都是朋友。

Weekends, evenings, we wanted to be doing DECIEM because we were all friends.

我们一起吃饭。

We were all eating together.

周末一起去尼亚加拉大瀑布。

We were going to Niagara Falls on the weekend.

还一起去多伦多的主题乐园。

We were going to a theme park in Toronto.

我们就是一边做事一边玩。

We were just having fun whilst we were doing everything.

你提到他想建立家庭，因为他小时候过得不太好。

The part you said about he wanted to build a family because he had a sort of troubled upbringing.

我想了解一下，你觉得他的成长经历是怎么影响他组建公司的方式的？

I'm trying to understand there how his upbringing, you believe, shaped his perspective on how you assemble a company.

听起来他像是在建立自己可能没有过的家庭，或者他确实有一些依恋问题，想卖掉品牌但不想失去人。

It sounds there like he was building the family he might not have had, or there's clearly some attachment challenges there if he wants to sell the brands but not the people.

而且，离开这些公司时的心碎都是因为失去了人际关系。

And, again, the heartbreak associated with leaving these companies was all about losing relationships.

这些很大程度上说明他早年一定经历过什么。

A lot of that speaks to something that must have happened early.

所以我觉得这跟建立家庭有关——他从来不想让任何人离开他。

So I think it was around building a family of-- He never wanted anyone to leave him.

他希望DECIEM成为一个让人有归属感的地方，实际上，直到现在，归属感仍然是我们的北极星。

And he wanted DECIEM to be a place of belonging, and actually, even now, we have belonging as our kind of North Star.

我们团队里任何人最重要的感受，就是他们在DECIEM有归属感。

The most important thing anyone in our team should feel is that they belong at DECIEM.

不管他们是谁，信仰什么，在DECIEM都有他们的位置，我觉得这真的源于那种家庭的感觉。

Whoever they are, whatever they believe in, there is a place for them at DECIEM, and I think that really comes from this sense of family.

而且我觉得，再看看我丈夫那边的世界。

And I think, again, I even look at my husband's world.

我确实觉得初创公司，因为你在一个非常紧张的环境里工作，确实会建立起比我在Boots经历过的、以及我认为在企业里会存在的更深的关系。

I do think startups, because you're working in a very intense environment, it does build relationships far deeper than, well, I ever experienced at Boots and that I think would exist in corporate.

所以这种家庭的感觉，我觉得我们愿意为彼此挡子弹。

So this sense of family, I think, we would've taken a bullet for each other.

而且我觉得即使现在，在DECIEM，我们已经有1500人了，但我们仍然有很多早期的团队成员。

And I think even now, within DECIEM, we're 1,500 people now, but we still have so many of those early team members.

听起来像邪教。

Sounds like a cult.

确实是的。

It is.

但其实是个非常开心的那种。

But actually a very happy one.

这话你可不能这么说，对吧。

You can't say that, yeah.

那就像——

It was like a-

今天早上我做了一个演讲，我说：“听着，我要说点可能会惹麻烦的话。”

This morning I did a talk, and I said, "Listen, I'm going to say something here which might get me in trouble."

我说：“你得从一个邪教开始扩张。”

I'm like, "You've got to scale from a cult."

我当时就——

I was like-

……

...

我总得先声明一下，解释邪教当然很糟糕，他们会操控人。

I always have to disclaimer it and explain cults are really bad, of course, and they manipulate people.

但我说的不是这个意思。

But this is not what I mean.

我说的是那种奉献精神，大家齐心协力，创始人很有感染力，有一个你们都相信的使命，而且不管外界怎么说，你都坚信自己是对的。

It's that sense of dedication, we're all in this together, inspirational founder, mission you all believe in, and you believe you're right regardless of what the outside world says.

你是在执行一项使命。

You're on a mission.

你甚至睡在桌子底下。

You're sleeping under the table.

嗯，确实是这样。

Well, it is.

人们常说，你可以抱怨自己的父母，但如果别人说你父母的坏话——

They always say that you can complain about your parents, but if anyone else says a bad word about your parents-

……你就会说“不行”，即使他们说的和你自己说的一样。

... you're like, "No," even if they're saying the same thing you've said.

DECIEM 就是这样。

And DECIEM's like that.

你可以内部抱怨，也许流程上有些问题，但要是有人说坏话，你会立刻站出来维护。

You can complain internally, maybe there's not this process, but if anyone says a bad word, you come straight to the defense.

但我觉得当时就是有太多的爱和热情，而且再说一次，布兰登对我们每个人都很好。

But I think there was just so much love and passion, and again, Brandon cared for all of us.

他给了我们那么多爱，所以我们也回报他。

He had so much love that you gave it back.

这就是为什么当我们经历那件难以想象的事情时，一切都变得那么艰难，因为那不只是同事关系。

And that's why it was so difficult when we went through the unthinkable, and things became so difficult because it wasn't a colleague.

你刚刚经历了这段不可思议的旅程，我们一起旅行，一起打造了那么特别的东西。

You've just lived this incredible journey of us all traveling together, building something so special.

就是那种我们同舟共济的感觉。

Just such a sense of we're all in this together.

即使日子艰难，我们也会互相支持，事情可能不会顺利，但其实，我们就好好享受吧。

Even when times are hard, we've got each other's backs, and things may not work out, but actually, let's just have fun.

让我们学习新东西，然后继续尝试。

Let's learn things, and let's just keep trying.

我们永远不要害怕失败，就一起去做吧。

Let's never be afraid to fail, and let's just do it together.

人们听到这些，看到的是结果。

People hear that, and they see the outcome.

所以你刚才描述的一切，都是结果。

So everything you've described there is the outcome.

你们有很棒的文化。

You've got this great culture.

大家都很投入。

People are dedicated.

他们很忠诚。

They're loyal.

他们都在为这个使命努力。

They're on this mission.

人们会想，因为他们现在坐在办公室里工作，或者正在创办自己的公司。

What people will be thinking, because they'll be sat in their offices now working somewhere, or they'll be building a company of their own.

其实，今天早上我演讲的时候，这位年轻女士走过来问了我这个问题。

In fact, this young lady came up to me this morning and asked me this question when I was doing this talk.

她说：“我有个小团队，我想打造出你描述的那种文化，就是那种大家都很投入、像邪教一样忠诚的公司文化。”

She said, "I've got this small team, and I'm trying to create exactly what you've described, that kind of real dedicated kind of cult-like company culture where everyone's in it.

怎么做到？

How?

怎么才能打造出这种文化？”

How does one create it?"

其实很难解释这种文化是怎么形成的，因为据我观察，很多时候并不是刻意为之，也就是说，并不是事先制定好战略计划，让大家真正在乎。

It's actually quite difficult to explain how it comes together because in many cases from what I've observed, it's not necessarily intentional, i.e., it wasn't like a strategic drawn-up plan to make people really care.

这是一种很自然的过程，最终让团队成员产生了那种深深的归属感。

It was quite a natural thing that resulted in that sort of deep sense of care from the team members.

我想提一点，你刚才说的，我觉得特别到位，而且大家经常忽略，那就是乐趣。

I'll offer up one thing which you said, which I thought was spot on, which people often overlook, which is fun.

人们会想：“好吧，我们给点福利什么的。”

People think, "Well, we'll give perks and this and that."

但真正打造这种文化的，往往是工作之外的那些事情。

But it's all the things that happen outside of the work that seem to do most of the work in creating that cult.

而且你最好的点子往往是在——

And you come up with the best ideas-

——周末做别的事情时冒出来的，而不是在那种周一到周五、朝九晚五的状态里。

... when you're doing something on the weekend, and you're not in that kind of Monday to Friday, 9:00 till 5:00 zone.

我觉得那种创造力就是在那时候迸发的。

That's when that creativity, I think, happens.

而且我觉得人们在职场待的时间太长了，所以让大家真正喜欢来上班，这一点特别重要。

And I think people spend so long in the workplace, and that's why it's so important that actually people enjoy coming in.

有一件事我觉得确实是刻意改变的，就是回顾早期创业公司的文化，我不确定那种文化总是友善的。

The one thing that I say is definitely been a purposeful shift is I look back at early startup culture, and I don't know if it's always kind.

期望值非常高，而且再说，如果你在工作，我是很冷静的。

There's very high expectations, and again, if you're working, I'm calm.

布兰登则是非常热情，期望也很高。

Brandon is very high passion, high expectations.

大家觉得周末和晚上还得工作，

There's this people feel like they need to work on the weekends and the evenings-

这样健康吗？

... and is that healthy?

虽然实际上是在努力找平衡，我觉得这挺有意思的，再说我丈夫，他处在创业的不同阶段，我总是觉得特别有意思，尤其是在当今世界，我们对心理健康更加关注了，

Even though actually it's trying to get that balance, and I think it'd be interesting, and again, with my husband, who's in a different stage of startup, I always just find it interesting around like I think especially in today's world, we're so much more aware about mental health-

还有过劳的问题，实际上必须更加尊重平衡，我不知道我们以前是不是真的做到了。

... and burnout, and actually have to be much more respectful of balance, which I don't know if we necessarily had back then.

但同样，我觉得我们当时就是一群二十多岁的年轻人，布兰登稍微大一点，大家都很快乐，热爱我们做的事情。

But equally, I feel like, again, we were pretty much a bunch of young 20-year-olds with Brandon being a little bit older, who were all just happy and loved what we were doing.

当你开始创造东西，开始看到工作的成果，那会推动你更进一步，然后让一切更令人兴奋，因为你能看到你取得的成就是有意义的。

And when you start creating things, and you start to see the results of your work, then that drives you even further, and then that makes it even more exciting because you can see what you're achieving is actually meaning something.

你觉得如果没有那种缺乏平衡和早期的狂热文化，你能在DECIEM、The Ordinary和其他品牌上取得这样的成功吗？

Do you think you could've achieved the success with DECIEM and The Ordinary and the other brands if you didn't have that- lack of balance and early cult-like culture?

不能。而且我觉得在早期，大家都围坐在同一张桌子旁。

No. And again, I think in the early days, everyone's around the same table.

有Pred V负责配方，Dion负责传播和品牌。

You've got Pred V, who's making formulations, Dion, who's doing comms and brand.

大家就坐在一起聊天，想点子，那种合作特别难得。

Everyone's just there talking, coming up with ideas, and that collaboration is so special.

你们在WhatsApp群里，然后就说：“你看到这个了吗？

And you're in WhatsApp groups, and you're like, "Have you seen this?

咱们做这个吧。”

Let's do this."

另外，我觉得早期还有一个很重要的点，就是灵活应变。

And also, I think the other thing in the early days, being agile is so important.

大家都没意见。

And everyone was okay.

你可能在做一个事情，第二天就变卦了，或者有人有不同看法，然后你就说：“哦，那我们现在换个方向吧。”

You could work on something, and the next day there'd be a change of decision or someone had a different view, and you're like, "Oh, actually, let's go in that direction now."

我觉得随着公司变大，团队变多，参与的人变多，这个就越来越难了。

That gets harder, I think, as you get bigger and actually there are many more teams, and there's more people involved.

这挺有意思的。

So that's interesting.

我得说，我同意。

I have to say I agree.

在我经历过的任何公司里，回头看最初那十到二十个人的行为方式，那最终就是我们扩展出来的东西，但正是那种能量和热情，让我们从零走到了一个。

With any business I've ever been in, I look back at those first sort of 10, 20 people and the way they behaved, and that's ultimately what we scaled, but it's that energy, enthusiasm, that got us from zero to one.

那这是不是意味着，在早期阶段，你应该找某种特定类型的人，也许他们可以承受更不平衡的生活？

Does that therefore mean that there's a certain type of person you should be looking to hire at that early phase that maybe can afford to have more of an unbalanced life?

我觉得你需要一个愿意身兼数职的人。

I think you need someone who's prepared to wear every hat.

在我们早期，我们会答应——比如接到Boots的订单。

So in our early days, we would say yes to-- We'd get an order from Boots.

如果我们觉得可能完成不了，我们也会答应，然后再想办法。

If we didn't think we could fulfill it, we would say yes, and we'd figure it out afterwards.

那通常意味着布兰登、我，或者当时在办公室的任何人，都会去工厂干活。

And that would often mean Brandon, myself, whoever was working in the office at the time, we'd go and work in the factory.

我们会通宵达旦地赶制产品。

We would pull all-nighters making the products.

那时候我还记得，用手工化学工艺时，我们有一台手动压接机。

And back then, I can remember with hand chemistry, we had a hand crimping machine.

但密封效果不太好，大概每十个里就有一个会炸开，要是捏得太用力就会这样。

But it didn't seal that well, and about one in ten actually exploded if you squeezed too hard.

所以晚上我们就在那儿做，一个个捏过去，像这样：'行，这个能过。'

So we'd be there at night, making them, squeezing them, like, "Okay, they can pass."

所以你得找那些愿意上生产线、帮忙打包的人。

So you have to have people that are prepared to get on production line, to pack the boxes.

而且就算后来，到了十一月或者黑色星期五这种忙季——最近我们干脆抵制了这些日子，搞了自己的‘慢十一月’活动——情况也差不多。

And again, even later on, when it was times around November, Black Friday, which more recently we boycotted and, well, we have Slowvember, our campaign.

但越是这种忙碌的时候，大家都会进仓库，一起帮忙发货。

But those periods where it's busy, everyone gets into the warehouses, and they help ship the products out.

所以我觉得，能随时戴上当下最需要的‘帽子’，也就是灵活应对各种角色，才是最重要的能力。

So I think the ability to wear whichever hat is needed for you at that moment is the most important skill set.

你对工作与生活平衡这个概念怎么看？

What do you think of this concept of work-life balance?

前几天我播客里请了一位嘉宾，叫亚历克斯·霍莫齐，他说人们应该停止讨论工作与生活平衡，因为这种说法本身就假设存在一个我们都应该达到的普遍平衡。

I had someone on the podcast the other day, and it's called Alex Hormozi, and he was saying that people need to stop having a conversation around work-life balance because it kind of assumes that there is such a thing as a universal balance that we should all be striking.

而就像你描述的，你当时很开心，虽然你的生活可能有点单一，但你很快乐，而这种快乐难道不是最重要的吗？

Whereas as you described it, you were happy, and okay, your life might have been slightly one-dimensional, but you were happy, and surely that happiness is the most important thing.

亚历克斯·霍莫齐说：“听着，我只做两件事。

And Alex Hormozi says, "Listen, I do two things.

工作，还有打游戏。

I work and I play video games.

就这些。

That's it.

而且我很开心，所以别跟我提什么工作与生活平衡。

And I'm happy, so stop telling me to do work-life balance.

我很快乐。”

I'm happy."

完全同意。

100% agree.

而且我觉得这取决于对你来说什么才是合适的平衡，而且这种平衡在你人生的不同阶段是会变化的。

And I think it comes down to what's the right balance to you, and it changes at different periods of your life.

所以在我二十多岁的时候，我过得挺好的，我可能牺牲了一些晚上出去玩的机会，也放弃了一些其他事情。

So I was in my 20s, I was fine, and I maybe sacrificed nights out and kind of doing other things.

但我一直到处旅行，待在DECIEM这个圈子里，创造这些神奇的东西，我特别开心。

But I was so happy traveling all the time, being in this kind of DECIEM bubble, creating all of this magic.

对我来说，这是一个非常有力的概念，就是如何在人生的不同阶段实现平衡。

And to me, that's such a powerful concept around how do we achieve balance at different periods of your life.

我们都会有那么一段时期，可以每时每刻都在工作，而且我们乐在其中。

We're all going to have periods where we can be working every hour, and we love it.

实际上，那既是我们的工作，也是我们的爱好，是我们的休闲时间，因为我们太热爱它了。

And actually, it's our work, but also it's our hobby, it's our downtime because we just love it so much.

然后你人生的另一个阶段，可能你有一位年迈的父母需要你的照顾。

Then you have another period of your life where maybe you have an elderly parent that needs your support.

也许你正在经历一些挑战。

Maybe you're going through some challenges.

你还有年幼的孩子。

You've got young children.

我们怎么互相支持，说："你知道吗？

How do we step up and support each other to say, "Do you know what?

我在这儿支持你。

I've got you here.

你做这部分，我来帮你处理那些部分。"

You do this bit, I'll cover those bits for you."

因为再过几年，可能就反过来了。

Because in another few years, maybe it switches around.

再说，我觉得这就是我们所说的家庭文化中非常独特的一点。

And again, that's something that I think is so unique to when we say a family culture.

在我看来，这就是一个真正体现善意的例子。

That to me is an example of kindness that I think really actually demonstrates it.

关于在企业界使用“家庭”这个词，一直有争议，对吧？

There has been a debate, hasn't there, about the use of the word family in the corporate world.

人们认为这暗示着缺乏界限，而且这也不是Netflix的整个文化文件，它说的是：“我们不是一家人，我们是一支高绩效团队。”

People think it means it kind of asserts that there's a lack of boundaries, and these are not Netflix's whole culture document, which is like, "We're not a family, we're a high-performance team."

我觉得我一直在纠结自己站在哪一边，因为在我的企业里，我总是希望有家庭文化的许多元素。

And I think I have struggled to figure out where I sit on it because there are many elements of the family culture that I always want in my businesses.

那种关怀，那种超越职责的付出，那种更深层次的非交易性关系。

That sort of care, that going above and beyond, the way a deeper sense of relationship that's non-transactional.

但另一方面，你也不会解雇你的家人。

And then also, on the other hand, you don't fire your family.

那么，家庭和高绩效团队之间的平衡点在哪里呢？

So what is that balance between family and high-performance team?

对我来说，家庭意味着归属感。

So for me, family is about belonging.

好的。

Okay.

每个人都能真正感到自己有一个安全的地方，并且感到被爱。

And everyone just really feeling like they have a safe place to be and that they are loved.

我觉得善良有时候会被误认为是软弱。

I think kindness sometimes is mistaken for weakness.

而且，我觉得“善良”和“客气”这两个词之间是有冲突的。

And also, I think there's a conflict between the words being kind and being nice.

客气虽然也算善良，但可能只是表面功夫。

Being nice is kind but can be superficial.

你在街上遇到陌生人，你会说：“嗨，你好吗？”

You see a stranger on the street, you're like, "Hi, how are you?"

你帮忙开门。

You open the door.

这很客气，但你真的关心对方过得好不好，还是只是在敷衍？

It's nice, but do you truly mean how are you, or are you just kind of placating it?

如果有人在工作中表现不佳，跟他们谈这件事不一定是一件客气的事。

If someone's not performing at work, it's not necessarily a nice thing to have that conversation with them.

但这是善意的做法，因为如果你的目的是帮助他们，而帮助的方式可能是我们觉得公司里有另一个更适合你的岗位。

But it is the kind thing because if your intention is to help them, and the help may be this is maybe a different role that we see in the company, which we think you're more suited for.

也可能是我们认为你需要一些辅导和培训，才能达到你应有的水平。

It may be that we think you need this coaching, this training to get to where you need to be.

也可能是，你看，你现在在这个岗位上，但我们没有看到你交出成果。

And it may be that, look, you're in this role, but we're not seeing the delivery here.

我们其实觉得对你来说更好的选择是在外面。

We actually think the better option for you is outside.

而且，当我们做裁员时，我们会考虑如何做辅导，实际上这能帮助某人寻找另一份职业，具体取决于岗位类型和离职的原因。

And now, when we've done terminations, we've done things around like how do we do counseling, where actually it helps someone to look for another career, depending on kind of what role it is and the reasons why we're leaving.

因为对我来说，那才是更仁慈的方式。

Because to me, then that's a kinder way.

我们实际上是在努力帮助那个人。另外，我们的公司，我们曾经是这样的，我们像坐火箭一样飞速发展，但疫情过后，我们遇到了低谷。

We're actually trying to help that person And the other thing, our business, we were like this, and we had a rocket ship, boomed, and then we came to a dimp just after COVID.

当我意识到如果我们的数字再不回升，我们就不得不裁员时，我受到了很大的冲击。

It hit me when I realized if our numbers don't pick up again, we're going to have to let people go.

因为实际上，这就是做生意的后果。

Because actually, that is the consequence of business.

你在这里要做很多事情，但归根结底，其中一项就是经营业务、赚钱。

You're there to do many things, but ultimately, one factor of that is to be a business and to make money.

如果你开始完不成指标，最终你不能一直亏损下去。

And if you start to not hit your numbers, ultimately, you can't lose money for long.

人们会开始说：“你必须省钱。”

People will start to say, "You have to save money."

那从哪里省呢？

Where does that come from?

人员编制。

Headcount.

然后我又意识到，好吧，我们必须拿出业绩来。

And I think that then hit me again that, okay, we have to perform.

所以，要对每个人都好，我们就必须是一个有业绩的团队。

So to be kind to everyone, we have to be a performing team.

所以再说一次，我觉得你可以做到高绩效，但通过友善，你可以让每个人都感到安全和被信任，这样当你必须做出艰难决定时，你会以尽可能友善的方式去做，并且真正采取行动去帮助。

So again, I think you can be high-performing, but by being kind, I think you can make everyone feel safe and trusted that again, if you have to make the hard decision, you're going to do it in the way to be as kind as possible and actually have the action to try and help.

我听到你说过，你是有史以来最不合格的CEO。

I heard you say something which was that you're the least qualified CEO ever.

是的。

Yep.

你听起来可不像最不合格的CEO。

You don't sound like the least qualified CEO ever.

我想你经历了不少风浪，所以……

I guess you've been through some shit, so

我确实是的。

I definitely am.

而且，我从一开始就在那里。

And again, I was there from the beginning.

作为能够领导10人、20人、100人组织的领导者，和我们现在1500人的情况，所需要的技能是完全不同的。

And being someone who can play a leader for an organization of 10 people, 20 people, 100 people, is a very different skill set to, we are 1,500 people.

现在雅诗兰黛集团是我们的主要股东。

We now have a majority ownership from Estée Lauder companies.

我们是一家上市公司。

We're a public company.

我们的整个环境都变了，这也很合理，因为作为一家更大的公司，我们必须更有条理，更注重规划。

Our whole world has changed, and rightly so, because being a much bigger organization, we have to be far more organized and planning.

而这些未必是我的强项。

And I wouldn't say those are necessarily my skill sets.

我之前提到的低谷期确实很难熬，因为在那之前我们就像坐火箭一样，即使遇到困难，我们总能超额完成预算和目标，不管别人给我们定什么目标，我们总是超预期完成，这在商业上感觉特别棒。

And again, the dip I mentioned was a very difficult period because we'd just been on this rocket ship of even when things were difficult, the one thing that we were always ahead of budget, targets, whatever anyone set for us, we always were just overachieving, which feels incredible when you're in business.

只要数字达标，其他一切就都顺理成章了。

If you hit numbers, then everything else just falls into place.

我记得，你会失去信心。

And I remember, you lose confidence.

我记得当时跟Stefan说，我们在ELC的汇报对象，他是个非常棒的人。

And I remember actually saying to Stefan, we report into at ELC, who's an incredible person.

但每次我说‘哎呀，这不对劲’的时候。

But each time when I used to say, "Oh, this is not going right."

我就说，‘我要辞职。

And I said, "I'll resign.

我不是那个人。’

I'm not the person."

但后来我又想，‘我需要帮助。’

But then I was like, "I need help."

我心想，‘我做不到。

I was like, "I can't do this.

我不是那种真正懂数字、会做规划的CEO。’

I'm not the CEO who understands numbers in the right way, who plans."

我改变了主意。

I changed my mind.

而且，你想想作为初创公司，你可以快速行动，可以随时调整。

And again, you think about all the things as a startup, you can do things quickly, you can change.

如果你在一个决定上改变主意，而现在已经有很多人在做这件事，你会让大家失去动力。

If you change your mind on a decision when you now have many more people working on it, you demotivate people.

在初创公司里，混乱是很有趣的。

Chaos is fun in a startup.

但在大公司里，混乱可能会让人失去动力。

In a large organization, chaos can become demotivating.

所以后来我很幸运，我们确实引进了一位非常出色的总经理，他大约一年前加入我们，他对公司产生了巨大的转变，因为他简直不敢相信我们连一些基本的东西都没有做好，因为我们发展得太快了。

So then I was very fortunate that we did bring in a very incredible general manager who joined us about a year ago, and he has had such a transformation on the company because he can't believe just the basics we didn't have in place, and because we'd grown so quickly.

现在要找到平衡，在品牌和创新方面，我们不需要经验，但这是DECIEM的，是我们的价值观，是我们非常热衷的事情。

And it's now to get that balance between, there's areas we don't want any experience but DECIEM's when it comes to brand and innovation, our values, things that we are so passionate about.

但在供应链、扩张和新市场方面，我们需要经验。

When it comes to supply chain and scaling and new markets, we need experience.

所以实际上，总经理的加入，能够掌控那些方面，然后让我专注于我更热衷的领域，比如品牌、员工、文化、归属感和社会影响。

So actually, having the GM come in, that actually could take control of those, and then actually allow me to focus on the areas which I'm much more passionate about, which is the brand area, our people, culture, belonging, social impact.

这对公司来说真的带来了巨大的改变。

It's just made a huge difference to the business.

那有两点。

So two things there.

你基本上是在情况有点棘手的时候，提出了辞职。

You offering up your, essentially resignation from your role when things were a little bit tricky.

这让我都产生冒名顶替综合征了。

It's giving me imposter syndrome.

我倒觉得我更多是个现实主义者——

I'd like to think more just like a realist of-

你有没有过冒名顶替综合征？

Have you ever had imposter syndrome?

因为你在这里引用了那句关于自己是史上最不称职CEO的话。

Because saying this quote here about being the least qualified CEO ever.

这到底是-

What is-

从传统角度来看。

From a traditional perspective.