播放次数最多的片段：更好的睡眠并不总是意味着更长的睡眠时间！今天就开始改正这些习惯

当我说能够改变你的行为、戒掉一个习惯时，这跟那些被某种成瘾所困住的人的情况完全不是一回事。

When I talk about being able to change your behavior and break a habit, it is nothing in the context of someone who is ensnared by an addiction of sorts.

这不是一回事，这完全是另一个话题。

There's not it it it's a completely different conversation.

对。

Yeah.

从小看着母亲那样，你是什么感觉？

What is it like growing up with a mother who you observe at a very young age?

你那时候多大？

You're how old?

我是说，我这一辈子都是这样。

I mean, my whole life.

你这一辈子都是这样？

Your whole life?

是的。

Yeah.

就是，她，嗯。

Like, she mhmm.

小时候，当你看到一个父母，一个你爱的人，被成瘾所困，那是什么感觉？

As a child, when you when you see a parent, someone you love, that is in that is sort of gripped by addiction, what is that like?

对。

Yeah.

我觉得，从根本上来说，你会觉得自己被忽视了，大概就是这样。

I mean, I think at a at a fundamental level, you just feel deprioritized, I think, generally.

你知道，就是，我觉得你会觉得自己没人管，这是第一点。

You know, like, you know, I I think you feel you know, you're unsupervised, number one.

没什么人管你，所以最后你真的得自己照顾自己。

There isn't a lot of supervision, you know, so you end up, like, really having to fend for yourself.

我爸工作很忙。

My dad worked a lot.

他确实是个工作狂，但他人特别好，特别正直，不过我觉得那是他逃避的方式，但这也导致你得自己想办法吃饭。

You know, he was definitely a workaholic, such a good man, so much integrity, and but I think that was his form of escape, but it kind of leads you know, you gotta figure out how to eat.

你得自己搞定很多基本的事情。

You gotta, you know, gotta figure out how to do a lot of the basic stuff on your own.

所以你会变得很独立，但我觉得作为成年人，很难建立情感上的联系，除非你真的去面对这些问题，因为你害怕自己不会被照顾。

So you develop a lot of independence, I think, but it's hard to, you know, form emotional attachments, I think, as an adult, unless you really work through that, you know, because you're afraid that you're not gonna be taken care of.

关于你母亲的成瘾和她所挣扎的事情，你后来有什么理解吗？哪怕一点点？

What did you come to understand about your mother's addiction and what she was struggling with, if anything at all?

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得那个时期最让人难过的是，大家都心知肚明。

I mean, I think what was so sad about that time period is, you know, I think it was well understood.

你知道，很多那些行为，我觉得在一定程度上被正常化了，而且我不确定抑郁和这些行为之间的联系。她毫无疑问有严重的季节性情感障碍，这也是为什么我对所有与光有关的东西以及健康机会这么感兴趣，但她有重度抑郁症，而且没有被正确诊断。

You know, I think a lot of those behaviors, I think, to a degree are normalized, and I don't know that the connection between depression You know, she was, no question, she had massive seasonal affect disorder, which is one of the reasons why I'm so interested in kind of everything related to light and just the opportunity there for health, but she had major depressive disorder and was not diagnosed properly.

我甚至不记得她有没有去看过医生寻求治疗，我完全不知道。

I don't even remember, I have no idea if she ever even went to the doctor to try to get treated.

所以，我觉得我学到的最重要的一点是，我们其实是可以做出选择的。

So, you know, I think the biggest thing that I learned is that we can actually make choices.

而且我知道，当你观察大脑的不同区域时，会发现有些人确实有先天倾向，但我觉得有很多事情我们其实可以控制，来降低自己对这些疾病的易感性。

And I know that there are, you know, when you look at regions of the brain, understand that people are predisposed, but I think there's a lot of things that we can actually control to reduce our vulnerability to some of these diseases.

回顾这段经历，你觉得它如何定义和塑造了你？

How has that experience defined and shaped you when you look back in Connect Dots?

是的，我是说，我一直是个非常有竞争力的高水平运动员，代表美国参赛，所以我当然会去了解自己的身体和心理，以便发挥出最佳水平。但毫无疑问，我所有工作的核心，就是试图理解我们如何改善自己的处境，从而能够自我实现，发挥出我们的潜力。

Yeah, I mean, just, I always, you know, I was very competitive, high level athlete representing The US, and so there's definitely trying to understand my own body and my psychology so I could perform my potential, but there's no question that like this whole, everything that like underpins the work that I do is trying to understand how we can improve our own situation so we can, you know, self actualize and live our potential.

所以，我一直为我妈妈感到非常难过。

And so that was I always, you know, felt so bad, you know, for my mom.

为什么？

Why?

你知道，她没能成为那个版本的

You know, she wasn't able to become the version

那个

of

自己。

herself.

就像，我没能让她发挥潜力，而她本来有那么多的潜力。

Like, I wasn't able to relax her potential and she had so much.

我真不敢相信你对我做了这些。

I can't believe you did this to me.

你需要纸巾吗？

Would you like a tissue?

谢谢。

Thanks.

你是一个非常特别的人，这完全说得通，为什么你有那么强的动力和使命感。

You're very you're a very special person and it all makes makes sense ton of sense why you've got such an incredible incredible drive and mission to you.

我之前不知道你说的这些，但是……

I didn't I didn't know any of those what you've just said, but

我从来没有公开谈过这些，所以，是的。

I've never talked about that publicly, so I'm just yeah.

多么好的方式，把那种难以想象的痛苦转化成了帮助成千上万的人改善生活，让他们更接近自己的潜力。

What a what a wonderful way to have channeled such a unimaginable pain to then sort of fix, you know, hundreds of thousands of people's other lives and help them get closer towards their own potential.

对。

Yeah.

我从来不想把自己的价值观强加给别人，但我觉得这始终是我做这些事情的核心原因。我之所以长期做教练，就是因为我喜欢看到人们意识到自己的潜力，或者理解自己的潜力，同时知道我们当然一直在成长中。

I and I I never wanna, like, project my values onto other folks, but but I think that's always been, like, at the core of, like, why I do what I I do is and the reason why I coached for so long is I just love seeing people, like, realize their potential or understand their potential, knowing that we're always, of course, a work in progress.

我只是希望每个人都能醒来时充满活力，能够真正去活出自己在意的东西，而且我认为，通往那个目标的道路需要一些努力，比如要确保你关注到我们刚才谈到的那些不可妥协的事项。

But I just like, I want, like, everyone to be able to wake up and feel, you know, be energetic and be able to, like, really, really live the things that you care about, you know, and just in understanding, I think, the path to that, you know, requires some work, you know, in terms of making sure that you're attending to some of these nonnegotiables that we're talking about.

我觉得有时候人们需要时间才能把这些点联系起来，而在这个过程中会有很多很棒的学习。

And I think sometimes it takes folks time to connect those dots, and there's a lot of wonderful learning that comes with that.

但如果我能帮助加速一些这种智慧，让人们避免经历我曾经感受到的一些痛苦，那对我来说就值得了。

But I think if I can kind of help accelerate some of that wisdom and keep people from experiencing, I think, some of the pain that I felt, you know, it's worth it to me.

你把自己的人生投入到这件事上，真是最了不起的事情，因为你知道，会有很多人要么正在走向成瘾的道路，要么正被这种成瘾所困。

It's the most incredible incredible thing that you've committed your life to because, I mean, you are both aware that there's gonna be a ton of people who are either on a path towards such an addiction or are currently enthralled by such an addiction.

你所做的工作，你传播的信息，将会预防并帮助一些人摆脱那种处境，这对世界有一种美好的因果效应。

And the work that you're doing, the message you're spreading is going to prevent and lift some of those people out of that situation, which has has a wonderful karmic effect on the world.

我觉得如果有什么能把我们的痛苦转化掉，那正是这个。

And I think if there's anything that we can convert our pain into, it is it is exactly that.

我想聊聊酒精这个话题。

I wanna talk about alcohol.

我最近戒酒了。

I've recently quit drinking alcohol.

大概三四个月前开始的吧。

I think it was about three to four months ago now.

这事儿挺有意思的。

It was so interesting.

我和几个最好的朋友聊过一次。

I had a conversation with some of my best friends.

我几个月前在播客里也提过这事儿。

I've I said this on a podcast couple of couple of months ago.

其中一个朋友以前是酒鬼，他成功戒了酒，还写了本书。

And one of my friends was an alcoholic, so he managed to quit alcohol, and he's writing a book about it.

再看看我其他朋友，他们都不是酒鬼，但都是那种偶尔喝点的人。

And then as I look across the group of my other friends, none of them are alcoholics, but they're all sort of casual drinkers.

我们当时围坐在桌旁吃晚饭，他跟我们讲他正在写的那本关于戒酒的书。

And we were sat there together around this table having dinner, and he was telling us about this book he's writing about quitting alcohol.

我坐在那儿想，他写的那本书对我来说不一定有共鸣，因为我从来没有觉得自己上瘾，说实话，也没觉得喝酒有什么问题。

And I was sat there thinking, that book that he's writing doesn't necessarily resonate with me because I've never had I've never felt like I've had an addiction or really, to be honest, any problem with it.

对。

Yeah.

我以前就是个偶尔喝点酒的人。

I'm such I was such a casual drinker.

我可能一周就喝一杯葡萄酒，甚至可能一个月都不碰酒。

I would have maybe one glass of wine a week, if that there's probably months I've gone without any alcohol at all.

所以我想不出有什么理由要戒酒。

So I couldn't think of a reason to quit.

所以，我当时就在说，Tim，有没有另一本书，是别人为我写的，专门针对那些像我这样偶尔喝酒、还在犹豫的人，给我们一个理由，让我们跨过那道坎？

So, really, I was saying, Tim, is there another book that someone else could write for me that just takes those people that are those casual drinkers that are right on the fence and just gives us a reason to nudge over the other side?

因为我有这个播客，我就想，不如试试戒酒，看看对我的生活有什么影响。

And because I have this podcast, I thought, you know, I'll just try and quit and see if see what the implications are for my life.

酒精、健康、昼夜节律，你对这些有什么看法？

Alcohol, health, circadian rhythms, what do you what's your perspective on all of this?

嗯，我喜欢思考这个问题。

Well, I like to think about it.

我很喜欢这个，就是“非中立性”这个原则。

I love this, the the principle of non neutrality.

对吧？

Right?

这就是我思考行为的方式，也是我一直以来的想法：如果你有一系列的行为，我们聊了很多关于睡眠和生理方面的事情，还有心理方面的。

And this is how I like to think about behaviors and how I've kind of always thought about it is if you've got a series of behaviors, we talked a lot about sleep and and, you know, physiological things, and you've got the psychological things.

这些行为要么支持你的价值观，也就是你想成为什么样的人，要么就不支持。

And they're either going to support your your values, kind of who you wanna be in this world, or they're not.

我觉得这就是我看待酒精的视角。

And and I think that's the lens with which I look at alcohol.

你知道，它在哪些方面支持我关于成长、影响力、在场、同情和宽容的价值观，这些是我在这个世界上想成为什么样的人的核心？

You know, in what way is this supporting my values of growth and impact and presence and compassion and tolerance, you know, the things that are like core to who I wanna be in this world?

我觉得当你用这个视角去看的时候，选择对我来说就变得非常清晰了。

And I think when you look at it through that lens, the choices become really clear to me.

如果你对自己诚实，并且有一定的自我意识，明白自己在乎什么，我觉得选择就会清晰很多。

If you're honest with yourself and you have some degree of self awareness, understand what you care about, I think choices become a lot clearer.

就像在微观层面，生活该怎么过，其实有更多的清晰度，而这正是我们在讨论的。

Like there's way, way more clarity about how to live your life in the micro, which is really what we're talking about.

就是一天中一个个小小的选择。

It's just mini choices throughout the day.

它是否支持你想成为的那种人？还是不支持？

Does it support who you wanna be in the world, or does it not?

实际上，几乎没有灰色地带。

And there's very little gray, actually.

在我看来，那些灰色地带就是借口。

And the gray are excuses, in my view.

我们可以整天合理化、编造理由，对吧，让自己感觉好受些。

And we can rationalize and make stuff up all day long, right, to make ourselves feel better.

但当你能够退一步，真正把自己从局中抽离出来，从非常客观的角度去看待时，我觉得像酒精这样的选择就变得非常清晰了。

But when you can step back from all of that and look at it really taking yourself kind of out of the equation and look at it from a very objective standpoint, you know, I think a choice like alcohol becomes very clear.

但酒精能帮我社交啊，克里斯汀。

But it helps me to socialize, Kristen.

对，如果你需要酒精才能拉近关系或者建立联系，那在我看来，可能还有其他未解决的问题。

Yeah, if you need alcohol to bond or to you know, form a connection, there's probably something else going on that is unaddressed from my perspective.

你觉得有没有一种小剂量的酒精，小到根本无关紧要？

Is there such a thing as such a small dose of alcohol that it doesn't matter, in your opinion?

有。

Yeah.

我觉得这取决于个人，而且个体差异也很大。

I mean, I think it depends on who you are, and I I think there's a lot of individual variability there as as well.

我知道白藜芦醇经常被提到，在葡萄酒和葡萄里确实有白藜芦醇，它被认为对健康和幸福有益。

I know resveratrol is something that's talked about a lot, and there's, you know, I suppose there's, in wine and grapes, there's resveratrol, and that's been linked to enhanced health and well-being.

但我觉得你得喝大概十瓶才能摄入足够的白藜芦醇，真正起到作用。

But I think you'd have to drink like 10 bottles or something to get the amount of resveratrol to actually make a dent.

我觉得这不是重点。

I don't think that's the argument.

所以，是的，我不确定任何量的酒精真的会有帮助。

So yeah, I don't know that really any amount of alcohol is gonna be helpful.

而且我们从文献中知道，每周哪怕只喝一两杯酒，对健康也会有负面影响。

And we know from the literature that just one to two drinks per week can have negative implications on health.

所以实际上，我不确定即使是适量饮酒，对你也是有好处的。

So it's actually I don't know that any, like, even a moderate amount of alcohol is good for you.

这对我们一直在讨论的昼夜节律有什么影响？

What's the implications for our circadian rhythms that we've been talking about?

对。

Yeah.

主要是因为酒精会影响睡眠。

It's mainly because it impacts sleep.

它会影响你入睡和醒来的时间。

It's going to impact when you go to bed and when you wake up.

所以我觉得这是最大的影响。

So I think that's the biggest impact.

而且我觉得，再回到褪黑素的话题，你知道，当你打乱了入睡和醒来的时间，那显然会带来我们之前说过的所有下游负面影响。

And I think, again, when we go back to melatonin, you know, when you're disrupting that sleep onset offset, that's going to obviously have all the downstream negative effects that we've already spoken about.

所以我想，如果我们喝酒，我们就会在外面待得更晚，所以我们会暴露在光线下。

So I suppose if we're drinking, we're staying out later, so we're exposing ourselves to light.

是的，还有很多，我们还会吃得更晚。

So yeah, there's lots of, we're gonna be eating later.

喝酒还会伴随其他行为，这些行为会加剧负面影响。

There's other behaviors that accompany drinking that kind of, you know, pile on the the negative effects.

我读了一些睡眠基金会的研究，其中提到2007年一项针对29名年轻人的研究发现，睡前最多一小时适量饮酒会使褪黑素分泌减少近20%。

I was reading some research from the Sleep Foundation, and it says that a 2007 study with 29 young adults found that moderate doses of alcohol up to one hour before bedtime reduced melatonin production by nearly 20%.

这是关于年轻成年人酒精和褪黑素的研究。

That's the study on alcohol and melatonin in young adults.

2018年一项针对4908名芬兰参与者的研究发现，喝一杯葡萄酒后睡眠质量下降9.3%，喝两杯后下降24%，喝三杯或更多葡萄酒或等量酒精后下降近40%，准确说是39.2%。

A 2018 study of 4,908 Finnish participants found that sleep quality was was reduced by 9.3% after one glass of wine and by 24% after two glasses of wine and by almost 40%, thirty nine point two percent, after three or more glasses of wine or an equivalent amount of alcohol.

对。

Yeah.

这真的很惊人，喝三杯葡萄酒后，你的睡眠质量竟然会下降40%。

Which is really, really staggering that your sleep quality will could dip 40% after three glasses of wine.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

我是说，我们刚刚完成了一项分析，研究酒精和恢复指标的关系，比如心率变异性和心率。实际上，每喝一杯酒，下降趋势都是线性的，而且非常显著。

It's I mean, we see we just finished this analysis actually looking at alcohol and markers of recovery, so heart rate variability and heart rate, and literally with every drink, it is just there's a linear relationship in the decline, like, and it is significant.

所以，我的意思是，是的，即使只喝一杯，也会导致心率和心率变异性出现临床上显著的下降。

So, I mean, yeah, it's we're talking even one drink will produce clinically significant reductions in heart rate and heart rate variability.

这也许是我戒酒最大的动力，就是当我第一次戴上Whoop手环的时候，然后我记得好像是某人的生日什么的。

This was maybe the most compelling motivator for me to quit alcohol was when I got my whoop the first time, and then I think it was someone's birthday or something.

所以我们出去了，我喝了一杯葡萄酒之类的。

So we went out and I had a glass of wine or something.

第二天我醒来，看了看我的心率变异性，这是衡量我第二天应对压力、负荷以及所有那些事情的能力的指标，也是我的身体应对生活的能力的指标，结果它显示红色警报。对。

I woke I woke up the next day, looked at my heart rate variability, which is the a measure of how well I'm gonna be able to deal with stress and load and all those things the next day, how well my body's gonna be able to deal with life, and it was flashing red Yeah.

这就像是个警告。

Which is like a warning.

然后我点开那个闪红的东西，上面写着：你今天是不是压力特别大？

And it and it says on there, when I clicked on the flashing red thing, it was like, did you have a really stressful day?

你生病了吗？

Are you sick?

对。

Mhmm.

还是昨晚喝酒了？

Or did you drink alcohol last night?

我感觉被精准打击了。

And I felt so targeted.

我懂。

I know.

我当时就想，这玩意儿怎么知道的

I was like, how does this thing know

我知道。

I know.

它怎么知道我昨晚跟朋友喝了一杯红酒？

That I had one glass of wine last night with my friends?

为什么我身体里面有什么东西在闪红灯？

Why is something flashing red with inside of me?

人们不是都在WOOP上写日记吗？

People keep diaries on WOOP, don't they?

他们就是写那种WOOP日记，

They keep, like, the WOOP journal,

我觉得是叫这个名字。

I think it's called.

对。

Yeah.

所以这其实是个信息宝库。

So It's a gold mine of information, actually.

真的吗？

Really?

是的。

Yeah.

那你从这些数据里，关于酒精方面学到了什么？

What have you learned from that in terms of alcohol?

我猜很多结论都是从这里得出来的。

I imagine that's where a lot of the conclusions

对。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我们发现喝酒后第二天恢复能力平均会下降6%。

I mean, we see a six per percent reduction in next day recovery after alcohol on average.

所以，这基本上就是一杯到十杯的量。

So this is, you know, one drink to 10 drink.

你知道，基本上看平均就是6%。

You know, it's just basically looking at the the average is 6%.

所以平均值是，好的。

So the average of okay.

恢复。

Recovery.

所以如果有人狂饮，他们的恢复可能会减少30%到40%。

So if someone's have it if someone was binge drinking, they could have a 30 or 40% reduction.

对。

Yeah.

但那种情况，我们可能已经控制了那个具体的数据点，你知道，30杯酒，可能大概在每晚5杯的范围内，平均恢复减少是6%。

But it kind of and we we might and and that specific data point might we might have controlled for, you know, the 30 drinks, you know, it's probably somewhere in the range of five drinks, you know, per night, and the average recovery reduction is 6%.

那是依赖自我报告，对吧？

And that's relying on self reporting, right?

所以我想知道是否存在偏见，在那些……

So I wonder if there's biases in what There

可能会有。

might there might be.

对。

Yeah.

喝了十杯的人觉得自己只喝了四杯。

People that had 10 drinks think they had four.

但我觉得，是的。

But I I think yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

我其实不太记得自己喝了多少杯。

I don't really remember how many drinks I I had.

所以是的。

So yeah.

我都不记得我喝了多少。

I don't the drinks I had.

有意思。

Interesting.

太有意思了。

Super interesting.

另外，我们显然还会喝咖啡。

The other thing we obviously drink is coffee.

是的。

Yes.

咖啡因。

Caffeine.

昼夜节律紊乱和咖啡因之间肯定有关联。

Surely there's a correlation between the circadian disruption and caffeine.

对。

Yeah.

那绝对是影响昼夜节律的一个因素，如果我们在打算睡觉前八到十二小时内摄入咖啡因，它肯定会扰乱昼夜节律。

So that's definitely one of the circadian it definitely can disrupt circadian rhythms if we're having caffeine, you know, within eight to twelve hours, I would say, of when we intend to sleep.

这当然会影响我们入睡。

It's gonna impact our sleep onset, of course.

而且即使我们累到一定程度，比如睡眠不足，可能会睡着，但最终还是会打乱或碎片化我们的睡眠。

And even if we're tired enough where we have, you know, we're sleep deprived, we might fall asleep, but it will invariably end up disrupting or fragmenting our sleep.

所以我们没法进入更深的睡眠阶段，睡眠质量也达不到那种能让我们醒来后感觉恢复和焕然一新的程度。

So we're not kind of getting into that deeper stages of sleep, we're not achieving the sleep quality that is gonna, you know, allow us to wake up feeling restored and refreshed.

所以咖啡因的摄入时机真的很重要。

So timing of caffeine is really important.

聊了这么多，我对轮班工作者产生了深深的同情。

All of this conversation makes me have a huge amount of empathy for shift workers.

唉。

Ugh.

我说轮班工作者，不是指在仓库工作的人。

And when I say shift workers, I don't I don't mean people work in, you know, warehouses.

我指的是医生、护士、消防员。

I mean, doctors, nurses, firefights firefighters

嗯。

Mhmm.

警察、卡车司机、还有那些做烘焙的人。

The police, truck drivers, people that are baking.

对。

Yeah.

任何在晚上十点到凌晨四点之间，清醒超过两个小时的人。

Anyone who's up between the hours of, for more than two hours, between the hours of ten p.

晚上十点。

M.

到凌晨四点。

And four a.

对。

M.

都算是轮班工作者。

Is considered a shift worker.

所以，是的，有很多人其实都是轮班工作者。

So it's, yes, there's a lot of individuals walking around who are shift workers.

但那些真正在生物钟夜晚时段工作的人，牺牲真的很大。

But people who are literally up during the biological night, it's a huge sacrifice.

我们知道这些人平均会早死十五年。

We know those folks, on average, are going to die fifteen years sooner.

世界卫生组织把倒班工作列为致癌因素。

Shift work is considered a carcinogen by the World Health Organization.

这些人做出了巨大的牺牲。

Those folks make an enormous sacrifice.

他们会早死十五年？

They're gonna die fifteen years sooner?

平均来说是这样。

On average.

这太可怕了。

I mean, that's terrifying.

是啊。

I know.

你是想解决这个问题吗？

Trying Is to solve for that?

是的。

Yeah.

其实，我做的很多工作就是研究轮班，想看看还有什么其他办法能减轻在生物夜间保持清醒带来的影响。限时进食是一个办法，还要考虑什么时候摄入蛋白质、什么时候接触光照，以及工作休息的节奏，尽量减少对昼夜节律的干扰。

I mean, that's a lot of the work that I do, looking at shift work, and trying to understand what other levers can we deploy to offset some of the impact of being awake during the biological night, and time restricted eating as a lever, really thinking about when we're eating protein, when we're viewing light, what's the cadence of on, off so we minimize the disruption, the circadian rhythms.

说实话，这些医院的排班人数根本不够，我觉得没法通过调整排班来降低昼夜节律紊乱带来的风险，这确实很吓人。

I mean, the fact is, like, the roster size at these hospitals are just simply not big enough to be able to, I think, deploy schedules that mitigate some of the risk associated with this disrupted circadian rhythm, but it is frightening.

现在有很多研究在想办法减轻这些负面影响，但这个问题真的很难解决。

And there is a lot of work to try to understand how we can mitigate some of the negative effects, but it's a tough problem to solve.

我想，不只是这些人平均会早死十五年，他们的生活质量恐怕也不会太好，因为如果他们睡不好……

I guess it's not just that those individuals will die on average fifteen years earlier, but their quality of life, I imagine, won't be as good because if they're not sleeping

对。

Yeah.

我是说，抑郁、自杀，在这些不得不违背自然昼夜节律工作的职业里，发生率都更高。

I mean, depression, suicide, I mean, it's higher for folks in these professions who are having to operate counter to the naturally dark cycle.

那我们聊聊心理健康、抑郁和自杀倾向这个话题吧。

So let's talk about that in mental health, depression, suicidality.

这两者之间有什么关联呢？

What's the correlation there between?

对，这方面有很多有趣的研究。

Yeah, so there's a lot of interesting research.

首先，我们说说普通人，先不谈轮班工作，然后再回到轮班工作。

I mean, one is just, we talk about just the lay person, so getting outside of shift work, we come back to shift work.

你看，大多数人都有社交时差，对吧？

If you look at this, most folks experience social jet lag, right?

基本上就是指工作日和周末的睡眠时间差异很大，对吧？

Which is basically characterized as a big difference between our weekday sleep schedule and our weekend sleep schedule, right?

所以差不多20到30岁之间的人，很多都有社交时差。

So pretty much anyone between 20 to 30 probably kind of falls into this bucket of having social jet lag.

但我们看到的一项针对大学生社交时差的研究发现，工作日和周末作息每相差一个小时，非自杀性意念的风险就增加17%。

But a research study we saw looking at specifically a social jet lag in college students, they saw that for every hour of variability between week day, and weekend schedules, they saw a seventeen percent increase in non suicidal ideation.

这些人并没有自杀，但他们有自杀的幻想。

So these folks aren't committing suicide, but they're fantasizing about committing suicide.

而这个比例增加了百分之十七。

And that increases seventeen percent.

这种情况在那些本来就比较脆弱的人身上更为明显。

And this was more pronounced in individuals who were already vulnerable.

所以回到那个观点，昼夜节律紊乱在所有的心理健康问题中都存在，我们可以看出，轮班工人因为作息不规律，确实非常容易受到心理健康问题的影响。

So kind of coming back to circadian disruption being present in one hundred percent of mental health issues, we can see where shift workers would be extremely vulnerable, right, to mental health issues, given that their variability.

再看看WHOOP的数据，他们的睡眠和起床时间基本上就是随机的。

And we look at the WHOOP data, it's basically random in terms of looking at their sleep wake time.

变化太大了，根本看不出什么规律。

It's so variable that it's like we can't even see a pattern.

完全是随机的，这很可怕。

It's random, which is frightening.

为什么可怕呢？

Why is that frightening?

因为，你知道，变化越多，心理和生理上的负面后果就越多。

Because, you know, the more variability you have, like the more psychological and physiological, negative consequences there'll be.

我们应对生活中压力事件的方式，和这个也有关系吗？

Is there a correlation here between how we deal with stressful events in our lives as well?

因为我觉得肯定有。

Because I'm assuming there Yes, must be

当然有。

absolutely.

在白天甚至夜间管理压力，肯定能提高你对压力的承受能力。

Managing stress throughout the day and the degree, or even during the night, can definitely increase your tolerance for stress.

比如，用呼吸练习作为即时自我调节工具，来缓解当下的压力，并激活副交感神经系统，这非常有效。

So, you know, deploying breath work, for example, as on demand self regulation tool to pay down in the moment stress can be, and to activate the parasitic branch of the nervous system, can be really powerful.

我称之为“微型放松时刻”。

So, you know, I kinda call these mini moments of deactivation.

对于处于高压、高风险环境中的人来说，主动这样做是个很好的策略。

So doing that proactively for folks who are in these high stakes, high stress environments is an amazing strategy.

因为很多人，你想啊，就光说基本状态，如果你做轮班工作，晚上还得醒着，你的身体系统其实一直处于一种比正常水平更高的压力状态，对吧？

Because lots of those folks, again, if you think about just baseline, when you are engaging in shift work and you're awake during the night, your system is humming at a kind of a stress level that is above what would be normal, right?

你的身体系统得费更大的劲去维持平衡，因为你做的恰恰是身体不想让你做的事。

Like your system is having to work so much harder to maintain homeostasis because you're doing exactly the opposite of what your body wants to do.

所以，当你在这个生物钟的夜晚保持清醒时，所有的生理偏好都被绕过了，对吧？

So all of the kind of biological preferences are being bypassed, right, when you're up during the biological night.

所以为了缓解一些压力，这些短暂的放松时刻对这类人群来说绝对至关重要。

So to pay down some of that stress, you know, these many moments of deactivation are absolutely critical for that population.

也就是说，真的就花三十秒做做生理性叹息，比如我们知道这是目前最有效的呼吸技巧，不仅能即时缓解焦虑和压力，还能降低你对未来焦虑和压力的感知。

So that means just literally taking thirty seconds where you're doing the physiological sigh, for example, which we know has emerged as being the most efficacious breath work technique in the moment to reduce not only in the moment anxiety and stress, but actually your perception of anxiety and stress, like in the future.

什么是那个叹息？

What is that sigh?

生理性叹息，基本上就是两次连续的吸气，然后一次长长的呼气。

The physiological sigh, it's basically a double inhale followed by an extended exhale.

完美。

Perfect.

完全正确。

That's exactly right.

基本上，就像你哭的时候，会做那种双吸气，然后跟着一个长长的呼气。

So basically, like when you're crying, you kind of do that double inhale followed by an extended exhale.

但这种方式能非常有效地立刻减轻压力。

But that reduces stress in the moment in a really powerful way.

如果你这样做，比如五次、十次，最终会激活副交感神经分支。

And if you do that, you know, five, ten times, you end up activating the parasympathetic branch.

这样你的心率就会降下来。

So you're reducing your heart rate.

而且，整天时不时这样做，是缓解负面压力累积的好方法。

And, you know, kind of doing that throughout the day is is a great way to mitigate negative stress accumulation.

有一个相当不幸的悖论，一个相当可悲的悖论，那就是我们的轮班工作者，尤其是像医生这样的，恰恰是我们最需要他们保持专注的人。

There's a pretty unfortunate paradox, a pretty tragic paradox in the fact that our shift workers, some of them like doctors especially, are the people that we need to be most focused.

全速运转。

Firing on all cylinders.

没错。

Exactly.

对。

Yeah.

但根据我今天学到的关于昼夜节律的知识，这些人恰恰是最容易出现注意力不集中、睡眠问题等这些对良好表现至关重要的方面出问题的人。

But those are the people that are, from what I've learned today about the circadian rhythm, most likely to suffer with things like focus and sleep and all of those things that are imperative to showing up well.

是的，我是说，这两者是有关系的。我们知道，在Wu平台上，每累积45分钟的睡眠不足，第二天精神控制能力就会下降5%到10%。

Yeah, I mean, there's a relationship, you know, we know that with every forty five minutes of sleep deprivation accrued on the Wu platform, we see a five to 10% next day decrease in mental control.

精神控制。

Mental control.

执行功能。

Executive function.

我们用MBAC和Stroop测试来测量，这些是评估执行功能的性能测试。

So we measure this with an MBAC and a Stroop, so these kind of performance tests to measure executive function.

我们发现，每累积45分钟的睡眠债，第二天的执行功能就会下降多达10%。

And we see for every forty five minutes of sleep debt accrued, we see up to 10% decrease or decline in next day executive function.

那执行功能对人们来说意味着什么？

And what does executive function mean for people that are

就是我们做决策的能力。

Our ability to make decisions.

好的。

Okay.

你刚才用了“睡眠债”这个词。

You used the word there sleep debt.

什么是睡眠债？

What is sleep debt?

简单说，就是你需要的睡眠量和你实际得到的睡眠量之间的差距。

So that's basically what you need versus what you actually got.

而且这个差距因人而异。

And that's highly individual.

对吧？

Right?

这也是WuT平台的一个美妙之处，我们会了解你的身体，了解你的睡眠效率，了解你最佳的睡眠和起床时间，然后基本上告诉你需要在床上待多久。

And and that's one of the of beautiful things on the WuT platform is that we learn your body, we learn how efficient sleeper you are, we learn what your optimal sleep wake time should be, and we basically tell you how much time you need to spend in bed.

所以，我的团队在WHOOP做的很多工作，就是试图理解睡眠债和我们关心的其他表现指标之间的关系，这些指标能反映一个人在环境中正常运作的能力。

So a lot of the work that my team has done specifically at WHOOP is to try to understand, you know, what is this relationship of sleep debt to other performance metrics that we care about, right, that tell us a story about someone's ability to kind of function in their environment.

我们做的一项研究，专门针对企业高管，也就是CEO这类人。

And one of the studies that we did was looking specifically at business executives, so CEO types.

我们基本上看了，这是一项为期六个月的研究，比较了两个不同的群体，男女比例大概是均衡的。

And we basically looked at, this one was a six month study looking at two different cohorts, I think equal distribution between men and women.

我们发现，这些企业领导者每累积四十五分钟的睡眠债，第二天的执行功能就会下降百分之五到十。

And what we saw was for every forty five minutes of sleep debt accrued in these business leaders, we saw a five to 10% decrease in next day executive function.

所以，领导者在有睡眠债的情况下做决策的能力，随着睡眠债的累积会变得越来越差。

So the leader's ability to make decisions in the presence of sleep debt, you know, gets worse the more sleep debt you accrue.

我们做了后续研究，这个结果挺惊人的。

We did a follow-up study, and this one was wild.

我们基本上看了，大约有七十位企业高管，CEO这类人。

So we basically looked at, it was roughly, it was about 70 business executive CEO types.

我们看了他们所有的客观指标，睡眠债就是其中之一，然后我们观察了他们的直接下属在团队会议中的心理安全感。

And we looked at all of their objective markers, sleep debt being one of them, and we look at the psychological safety of their direct reports during team meetings.

那你给我解释一下什么是心理安全感。

And define psychological safety for me.

就是你在自己的环境里，能多大程度地以最真实、最本真的自我出现。

How safe you feel to show up in your environment as your true most authentic self.

我们再次发现，领导每多四十五分钟的睡眠债，直接下属的心理安全感就会显著下降。

And what we saw is, again, for every forty five minutes of sleep that the leader had, there was a significant decrease in psychological safety of the direct reports.

所以当领导累积了四十五分钟的睡眠债时，下属们在自己的环境里就不太敢展现真实的自己了。

So they felt less safe in their environment to show up as their true self when their leader had forty five minutes of sleep debt accrued.

而且有些人累积的睡眠债甚至达到了几个小时。

And some of these folks were carrying a couple hours of sleep debt.

心理安全感的程度和领导睡眠量之间是线性关系。

And there was a linear relationship between the amount of psychological safety and the amount of sleep that the leader had.

这项研究最有趣、也最让人信服的地方在于，领导自己根本察觉不到，他们无法感知自己在认知、身体和情绪上的衰退，对吧？

And what was so interesting, and I think compelling about this research, is that the leader had no idea, they couldn't perceive their own cognitive, physical, and emotional declines, right?

但这就是睡眠不足最阴险的地方，你根本察觉不到自己状态已经下滑了。

But that's what's so insidious about sleep deprivation is that you can't really tell when you're operating at a lower level.

你只是适应了那种低水平的运转，但你周围的每个人都能感觉到，对吧？

You just adapt to that lower level of functioning, but everyone around you can feel it, right?

就看你怎么绷着脸，怎么表达情绪，怎么跟人眼神交流，还有你有多大的耐心。

Just with how you hold your face, how you emote, the kind of eye contact you make, how tolerant you are.

你想想看，睡眠不足——我觉得这才是这项研究真正揭示的——它不只是影响我自己。

And you think about how sleep deprivation, and I think this is really what this research surfaces, it's not just sleep deprivation just doesn't impact me.

对吧？

Right?

它会影响到我接触到的每一个人。

It's gonna impact every single person I come in contact with.

从商业角度来看，纯粹从数字角度讲，谷歌做过一项叫“亚里士多德”的研究，他们看了很多跟团队绩效相关的指标。

And from a business perspective, just from a sheer, like, numbers perspective, Google did a study called Aristotle, and they looked at cycle they looked at a bunch of different metrics related to team performance.

那项研究里发现，最能预测团队绩效的，就是团队的心理安全感，也就是团队成员在环境中能自在地展现真实自我的程度。

And what emerged in that study is being most predictive of team performance was the degree to which the team had psychological safety, felt safe in their environment to kind of show up as their as their true self.

他们比那些缺乏心理安全感的团队多赚了450万美元。

And they brought in to the tune of $4,500,000 more than teams who are lacking psychological safety.

所以这真的是一个很重要的概念，我觉得很多人都不怎么谈论它。

So this is like a really important concept that I don't think a lot of people talk about.

但当我们回到非中立原则这个概念时，对吧，哪些行为能促进、让你践行自己的价值观，并且尽可能持续地展现最好的自己，那么减少睡眠债绝对排在首位。

But when we go back to this concept of the principle of non neutrality, right, and what are behaviors that promote, enable you to live your values, and kind of show up as your best self as consistently as possible, minimizing sleep debt is right there at the top of the list.

这太有意思了。

It's fascinating.

那说到事故和伤害，自己受伤和给别人造成事故之间有关联吗？

And as it relates to sort of accident and injury, is there a correlation between sort of injury of oneself and accidents you commit on others?

这和睡眠债之间有关联吗？

Correlation between that and sleep debt?

这是有充分依据的，你背负的睡眠债越多，你就越容易出事故，你也会冒更大的风险。

It's very well established that the more sleep debt you're you're carrying, you know, the more accident prone you are, you know, the the the the more risk you're gonna take.

是的，我们在医疗领域也看到了这种情况。

And, yeah, we see this in the medical field.

这在车祸中也能看到，而且这样的例子还有很多很多。

We see this in just car accidents and, yeah, the list goes on and on.

车祸。

Car accidents.

2016年交通安全基金会的一项研究发现，那些报告说通常每天只睡四到五个小时的司机，其事故率是那些通常每天睡七小时以上司机的5.4倍，这太可怕了。

A 2016 study by the Foundation for Traffic Safety found that drivers who reported that they usually sleep four to five hours per day had 5.4 times the crash rate of drivers who usually sleep for seven hours or more a day, which is horrifying.

是的，我知道。

Yeah, I know.

我的意思是，当我们想到睡眠时，我们作为一个社会并没有在这方面变得更好。

I mean, when we think about, you know, sleep, we're not getting better at it as a society.

而且我觉得我们讨论这个话题的角度不对。

And I think we're kind of coming at this conversation from the wrong lens.

我们只是告诉人们多花点时间在床上，却没有解决那些真正能让我们入睡和保持睡眠的行为。

You know, we're telling folks just to spend more time in bed without addressing the behaviors that actually enable us to fall asleep and stay asleep.

对我来说，这才是关键所在。

You know, to me, that's the conversation.

而且问题不在于花更多时间躺在床上。

And it's not about spending more time in bed.

对，那可能是需要做的，但问题是，如果你不改变那些行为，你是做不到的。

And yeah, that might be what needs to happen, but it's about you're not gonna get there.

对于那些没有考虑到我们刚才说的所有昼夜节律因素的人来说。

For folks who are not thinking about all the circadian things that we're talking about.

还有那些环境因素，比如冷、暗、安静，是的，这些都很重要。

And, you know, some of the environmental stuff, the cold, dark, the quiet, yes, that matters.

但从根本上说，我觉得人们并没有采取那些能帮助我们偿还睡眠债的行为。

But at a foundational level, I think folks are not engaging in the behaviors that are going to enable us to pay down this sleep deprivation.

我发现的另一项非常有趣的研究是，2021年的一项研究发现，睡眠不足七小时与受伤风险增加有关。

The other study that I found that was super interesting was that a 2021 study found that less than seven hours of sleep is associated with increased risk of injury.

如果这种情况持续至少十四天，肌肉和骨骼受伤的风险是1.7倍，几乎是两倍。

And if this is sustained for at least fourteen days, the risk of muscle and bone injury is one point seven times, almost two times higher.

是的。

Yeah.

所以像我这种经常去健身房、喜欢锻炼的人，如果睡眠债很高的话

So as someone that goes to the gym a lot and likes to work out, if I have a high sleep debt

嗯。

Mhmm.

那我受伤的可能性就大得多，如果这种情况持续下去，受伤的可能性几乎是两倍。

Then I'm much more likely to get an injury, almost two times more likely to get an injury if that's sustained

没错。

That's right.

这太疯狂了。

Which is crazy.

是的。

Yeah.

确实。

It is.

是的。

Yeah.

而且，你知道吗，我真的很感激大家终于意识到，睡眠是我们这个星球上最棒的自然表现增强剂。

And and, you know, I'm so grateful that I think folks are finally realizing that sleep is the greatest natural performance enhancer that we have on this planet.

是的。

Yeah.

这在我们做的所有研究里都体现得非常明显。

It's and that is certainly super evident in all the research that we're doing.

你刚才听到的是上一期节目中最受欢迎的一个片段。

What you just listened to was a most replayed moment from a previous episode.

如果你想听完整的那期节目，我在下面放了链接。

You If wanna listen to that full episode, I've linked it down below.

看看描述栏。

Check the description.

谢谢。

Thank you.

当别人听到噪音时，tRow价格解读市场信号，寻找投资机会。

When others hear noise, tRow price interprets market signals to find investment opportunities.

这就是普信主动型ETF的力量。

That's the power of active ETFs from tRow price.

他们的投资组合经理从多个角度分析数据，研究趋势，进行深入调研，为你带来基于好奇心的主动管理专业能力。

Their portfolio managers approach data from multiple perspectives, analyzing trends and conducting deep research to give you their curiosity backed active management expertise.

想了解更多关于他们的主动型ETF，请访问trowprice.com/explore ETFs。

Learn more about their active ETFs at trowprice.com slash explore ETFs.

交易所交易基金（ETF）按市场价格买卖，而非按资产净值（NAV）交易。

Exchange traded funds, ETFs, are bought and sold at market prices, not NAV.

投资者通常需要承担买卖价差带来的成本。

Investors generally incur the cost of the spread between the prices at which shares are bought and sold.

买卖股票可能会产生经纪佣金，这会降低收益。

Buying and selling shares may result in brokerage commissions, which will reduce returns.

普信投资服务公司。

T Rowe Price Investment Services Inc.