播放次数最多的片段：恐惧是一项可以训练的技能！来自世界顶级攀岩者的启示

如果你的孩子来找你，你生了两个女儿。

If your kids came to you you have two girls.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yep.

如果他们来问你，爸，给我点人生建议吧，我该朝着什么目标努力？你会怎么回答？

If they came to you and said, dad, like, give me advice on what I should aim at in life, would you tell them?

我不会给建议，不会给他们建议。

I wouldn't I wouldn't give them advice.

我会说，做你自己就好。

I'd be like, you do you.

找到你热爱的事情去做。

You find the thing you love to do.

全力以赴。

Go hard.

你知道，基本上就是学点技能，把某件事做好，比如你喜欢做什么？

You know, basically, like, learn some skills, get good at something, like what do you like to do?

对我来说就是这样，尤其是攀岩。如果当初有人跟我说，你以后要一辈子训练攀岩，我会觉得听起来挺枯燥的。

I mean, that's kind of the thing for me, especially with climbing is like, if someone had told me like you're gonna train climbing for the rest of your life, I'd be like, oh, that sounds like kind of a grind.

懂吗？

Know?

因为确实挺辛苦的。

Because I mean, is it is hard work.

就像背着大背包爬山，又冷又刮风。

You're like hiking uphill with a heavy backpack and it's cold and it's windy.

基本就是身体上很难受。

It's like it's basically physically uncomfortable.

职业攀岩者就意味着你一直处于身体不适的状态。

I mean, a professional rock climber means that you're physically uncomfortable all the time.

但很多时候，你就是知道，虽然很难，但就是很享受。

But like like often, you know, like it's, you know, it's hard.

是的。

Yeah.

但如果你是因为热爱这件事才去做，那就不会觉得太难。

But if you're doing it because you freaking love doing it, it doesn't feel very hard.

我觉得，关键是要让孩子找到一件不像是苦差事的事。

And so, I mean, I think the key for a kid is to find the thing that doesn't feel like hard work.

那你刚开始的时候，看到那些高大的岩壁，会害怕吗？

And when you started, were you scared of of big tall rock faces and stuff like that?

说实话，我确实有那种敬畏感。比如我第一次去优胜美地，作为攀岩者第一次看到酋长岩的时候，我当时才十九岁，感觉那玩意儿根本不可能爬上去。

I mean, yeah, I had like a healthy intimidation of the I mean, like my first season in Yosemite, the first time seeing El Cap as a climber, I was 19, and it looks impossible.

看起来简直疯了。

It looks completely insane.

就觉得，这也太大了吧。

Was like, that's so big.

但是呢，你要知道，经过几个季度之后，我也爬过些更大的岩壁，学会了怎么爬。

But then, you know, within a couple seasons, you know, I climbed some bigger walls, learned how to climb.

然后我和一个朋友制定了一个赛季目标，比如整个赛季都要在优胜美地攀岩，最终目标是有一天能徒手爬上酋长岩。

And then a friend and I had sort of season goal, like we were gonna climb Yosemite all season with the aspiration at the end to climb El Cap in a day.

所以基本上，这是一个漫长的过程，专门针对酋长岩，从刚开始尝试攀登，到追求速度，再到徒手攀岩，但还是会使用保护措施。

So basically, was this long progression on El Cap specifically where it's like you go from just trying to get up it, to trying to get faster to trying to get up it with just your hands and feet, still using protection.

但基本上，你可以采取所有这些不同的步骤。

But basically, there's like all these steps you can take.

然后在很多个赛季里，你爬了酋长岩大概60次，不同的路线，不同的方式。

And so over a bunch of seasons, you know, climbed El Cap like 60 times, different routes, all these different things.

最后你可能会想，哦，也许我可以考虑徒手攀岩一下，这也正是电影《徒手攀岩》的由来。

And then eventually you're sort of like, oh, maybe I can start thinking about Free Solo ing it, which is where the film Free Solo comes in.

然后最终你做了这件事。

And then eventually you do this thing.

但人们就会说，你不害怕吗？

But then people are like, well, aren't you scared?

然后你会想，哇，我已经花了十年时间在这上面积累了。

And you're kind of like, woah, I've spent ten years like building up on this thing.

我觉得这就是大家看不到的部分。

I guess that's what people don't see.

对。

Yeah.

所以就拿纪录片《徒手攀岩》来说吧，它确实很好地展现了直接准备的过程，比如那次特定攀岩所涉及的训练，但它没有展现之前那八年，我想。

So they just I mean, like the documentary Free Solo, I think does a pretty good job of showing the direct preparation, like the training involved in doing that specific climb, but it just doesn't show the, like eight years before that, I guess.

因为这部纪录片拍了两年，而我大概从2006年就开始去了。

Because the documentary was filmed over two years and I guess I've been going since 2006.

所以在那之前的九年，我一直去优胜美地，大概是每年花三个月的时间在攀岩上。

So it was nine years before that that I've been going to Yosemite and I've been spending maybe three months a year climbing walls.

我觉得这就好比所有伟大人物的错觉，他们成了运动员或短跑选手之类的，C罗或梅西，你从未看到的是他们

I guess that's the illusion of like all people that do great things and become like athletes or sprinters or whatever, Ronaldo or Messi, is you you don't get to see the

是的。

Yeah.

他们把整个人生投入到这件事上。

The whole life that they put into doing the thing.

对。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

所以当我们看到结果的时候，感觉就像变魔术一样。

So it looks it looks a magic trick when we see the outcome.

当我们看到你在Netflix上爬台北的时候，我们简直，哇。

When we show show up on Netflix to watch you climb Taipei, we're like, woah.

他就那样用腿挂在上面。

He's hanging with it from his leg.

是的。

Yeah.

就是说，人们看到那些节目，就觉得他直接走上去就做到了。

Mean, people watch some of those programs and they're like, he just walked up and did it.

然后你就会说，是啊，练了三十年，我就是直接走上去就做到了。

And you're like, well, yeah, after thirty years of practice, like, I just walked up and did it.

不，不是像走上去就能做到那么简单。

No, it's not like just walking up and doing it.

可能确实挺有意思的。

Probably the interesting yeah.

说实话，过去三十年里我一周至少爬五天。

Like, I've literally been climbing five days a week for thirty years.

那可是大量的攀爬训练。

Like, that's so much climbing.

我真的超爱攀爬，而且我爬得特别多。

Like, I freaking love climbing, and I I climb a lot.

说到这种暴露疗法，就是关于恐惧和焦虑，以及面对那些让人害怕的事情，在早期的时候，你是在努力理解这个过程吗？

On this on this idea of, like, exposure therapy as it relates to, like, fear and anxiety and confronting one's, things that terrify them, was that in the early days where you I'm trying to understand.

你当时害怕吗？

Were you, like, scared at

在某些时刻？

some point?

唉，一直都是。

Oh, all the time.

这其实是我觉得，你知道，我显然做过很多关于恐惧的采访，还有如何管理恐惧之类的。

That's actually something that I think, you know, I've obviously done so many interviews around fear and, like, managing fear and all that.

而且这些年来，我以很多不同的方式谈论过恐惧。

And I've talked about fear a lot of different ways over the years.

而且我觉得随着年龄增长，我逐渐意识到，其实作为攀登者，你时刻都在害怕。

And I think as I've found older, I've sort of come to realize that actually you're just scared all the time as a climber.

就像，那种低层次的恐惧，但攀登本质上就是令人恐惧的。

Like, low level fear, low but climbing is fundamentally scary.

就是，它总是有点吓人，因为总会有后果。

Like, it's always kind of scary because there are always consequences.

就像，就算你系着绳子在爬，你还是在想象，比如绳子断了怎么办？

Like, even if you're climbing with a rope, you're still always visualizing, like, what happens if the rope breaks?

就像，要是，你知道吧，这安全吗？

Like, what if, you know, like, is this safe?

比如，装备靠谱吗？

Like, you know, is the gear good?

这真的安全吗？

Like, is this actually safe?

所以你会一直有点害怕。

And so you're always a little bit scared.

所以在长年累月地保持这种警惕之后，你就很擅长处理这类情况了。

And so after years and years of always being scared, you get pretty good at managing that kind of stuff.

因为关于你做的这个脑部扫描，有很多误解在流传。

Because there's a lot of sort of misconception swirling around this brain scan you've

对。

Yeah.

不是的。

No.

我特别讨厌那些东西。

I hate all that stuff.

这就是从电影《徒手攀岩》里来的。

That's just all from the film Free Solo.

对。

Yeah.

电影里这个场景有点太短了。

It was like too short of a scene in the film.

他们需要再多一些。

They needed a little more.

他们需要让情节更充实一些，解释得更清楚一些，我觉得。

They need to let it breathe, you know, explain things a little better, I think.

所以他们扫描了一个对照组。

So they scanned a control subject.

还有一个人扫描了你，看你大脑里杏仁核的反应。

Another person scanned you, looked at the amygdala in your brain.

很多人得出的结论是，你并不会感到恐惧，因为当你看到这些成对的大脑扫描图时，面对恐怖画面，你的杏仁核亮起的程度更低。

And the the conclusion that a lot of people have arrived at is that you don't experience fear because when they look at these two brain scans, your amygdala is lighting up less when you're shown scary images basically.

对吧？

Right?

但比如说，就给你看这张图，那到底是什么意思呢？

But, like, shown just this image, like, what does that even mean?

比如，我的大脑是紫色的，他的大脑是橙色的。

Like, my brain's purple and his brain is orange.

你就会想，你就会想，这到底是什么意思？

You're like, you're like, what does that mean?

比如说，我也不知道。

Like, I don't know.

不过，我是说，其实问题在于，而且这也是我希望电影里能解释得更清楚的一点：就是我们做磁共振的时候，会给看黑白照片。

But, no, I mean, the the thing is though, and this is what I wish was explained in the film better, is that this is we're being shown black and white photos inside an fMRI.

所以你在一根密封的金属管里。

So you're inside a sealed metal tube.

你周围非常安全。

You're totally safe.

你身体上很安全，很舒服，然后给你看黑白照片。

You're physically safe and comfortable, and you're being shown black and white photos.

所以对我来说，显然这不会让我大脑里的恐惧反应亮起来，因为你在看照片，你会想，谁在乎呢？

And so to me, obviously, that's not gonna light up the fear response in my brain because you're looking at pictures, you're like, who cares?

我完全安全。

I'm totally safe.

但在对照组里，你知道，显然你的大脑会以某种方式对图像做出反应。

But in a control subject, you know, apparently your brain sort of responds to images one way or another.

但我有点像，我已经攀岩二十年了，所以经常感到害怕。

But I'm kinda like, I've been climbing for twenty years, so I've been, like, scared quite a lot.

然后你会想，如果你二十年里一直害怕，黑白照片就开始失去它们的冲击力了。

And you're kind of like, well, black and white photos start to lose lose their edge if you've been scared all the time for twenty years.

所以很明显，这不会引发太多反应。

So it's like, obviously, that's not gonna trigger much.

对。

Yeah.

而且我觉得每个人在生活中都能想到一个自己擅长的场景，比如一个脱口秀演员站在舞台上，可能就不会像我那么害怕。

And I imagine everybody in their life can think of it as a scenario where they have mastery that would like a stand up comedian looking out at a stage probably wouldn't be as scared as me.

对。

Yeah.

因为那对我来说会非常恐怖。

Because that would that would terrify me.

所以，这不一定是什么神经学上的问题。

So, again, this is not necessarily some sort of neurological No.

我觉得真正的收获是，我有一个杏仁核，而且它正常工作。

I mean, I think the real takeaway is that I have an amygdala, and it works.

明白。

Mhmm.

你

You

懂我的意思吗？

know what I mean?

因为我觉得，如果结果显示我的杏仁核缺失了，那我可能早就活不到现在了，因为基本上我就没法正常生活了。

Like, because I think if if the results had shown that I was missing my amygdala, then I would have all kinds of I would have died already at youth because I wouldn't be able to function as a as a human, basically.

但是，你知道，如果结果显示有什么结构差异或者实质性的变化，那还好说，但这基本上只是表明，经过二十年的训练，我的反应和普通人不一样了。

But, you know, had it shown something like that where there are, structural differences or, like, some real change, but this is basically just showing that after twenty years of conditioning, I respond differently than an average person.

然后你就会觉得，是啊，那还用说。

And you're like, yeah, no kidding.

就像如果你把一个僧人放进功能磁共振成像仪里，他们的大脑反应也会和普通人完全不同。

Like if you put a monk into an fMRI, their brain responds totally differently than an average person as well.

其实我觉得这个结论挺鼓舞人心的，因为这意味着我们都能更好地掌控自己的恐惧。

Which I actually think is a really inspiring conclusion because it means that we can all grasp our fears better.

而且，你们可能不知道，十年前，我和我的朋友阿什坐在他公寓的镜头前，想录一段两分钟的视频。

And even, you know, people won't know this about me, but ten years ago, I sat down on camera with my friend Ash in his apartment to record a two minute video.

但当我坐在那里时，我害怕得说不出话来。

And as I sat there, I couldn't I was so scared I couldn't the get words out.

所以在那段两分钟的视频里，你会看到背景从白天变成黑夜，因为我们花了七个小时，剪了无数次，就为了让我在镜头前说出两分钟的话。

So you actually in this two minute video that comes out, you see it go from night and day in the background just because we did that many cuts over seven hours trying to me to say two minutes on camera.

而且很明显，在镜头前待了十年之后，我现在可以毫不紧张地说话了。

And obviously, after ten years of being on camera, I can now speak without shitting myself.

而且我想，因为暴露疗法，我的大脑状态看起来会有很大不同。

And I imagine my brain state looks significantly different because of our exposure therapy.

完全同意。

Totally.

对。

Yeah.

你应该去做个功能磁共振成像。

You should do the fMRI.

你……对。

You Yeah.

你十年前就该做了，那样你就有对照了，然后现在再做，结果肯定会完全不同。

You should have done ten years ago because then you'd have your control and then you do it now and it'd be totally different.

而且我接触过的心理学家也会证实这一点。

But also the psychologists I've sat with will confirm this.

他们谈到了暴露疗法。

They talk about exposure therapy.

是的。

Yeah.

我在公开演讲方面也经历了完全相同的事情。

And and I went through exactly the same thing with public speaking.

比如，我一直非常害怕公开演讲。

Like, was always so afraid of public speaking.

我以前也很害羞，而且，就是，那真的很可怕。

I was also very shy and, like, just not like it was terrifying.

现在因为《徒手攀岩》的电影巡演，还有之后我做的所有公开活动，我基本上都没问题了。

And now because of the Free Solo film tour and, you know, all the public things I've done since then, I'm like, basically fine.

你知道吗？

You know?

所以你还是会有点紧张，但现在基本上很容易了。

So you still got a little nervous, but it's like basically easy now.

然后你就会觉得，哇，这完全是天翻地覆的变化。

And you're kind of like, well, that's a total change.

很明显，人类的学习能力是极其强大的。

It's like, obviously, there's a tremendous capacity for humans to learn.

人们总是跟你谈

People talk to

到恐惧，因为，我是说，你的工作

you about fear all the time because, I mean, your work

因为气候变化真的非常吓人。

because climate's really freaking scary.

这很合理。

It makes sense.

这完全可以理解。

It's totally understandable.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

而且我觉得，他们在内心深处也意识到，阻碍他们成为自己想成为的人或渴望成为的人的，往往是恐惧。

And they also realize, I think, at some deep level that the thing holding them back from who they think they wanna be or who they aspire to be is fear often.

是别人的评判。

It's judgment of someone else.

是冒险。

It's taking a risk.

完全正确。

Totally.

所以对很多人来说，你已经成了那个，告诉我——

So you've become, for many people, the like, tell me.

告诉我怎么克服。

Tell me how to overcome.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得每个人都会问，你克服恐惧的秘诀是什么？

Well, I think that everyone's like, what's your hack to overcome fear?

然后你就说，没有秘诀。

And you're like, there's no hack.

你就是一次又一次地感到害怕，时间久了，就没那么可怕了。

You just get really scared over and over for so long, and eventually it's not that scary anymore.

但我要说，这是一种非常持久有效的克服恐惧的方法。

But I will say that that's like a very enduring way to overcome your fear.

如果你愿意经历这个过程，那你其实就真的不怕了。

It's like if you're willing to go through that process, then you are actually unafraid.

你知道，因为你可以用一些技巧。

You know, because, like, you can do, like, hacks.

我的意思是，你可以放很响的摇滚乐，然后直接冲出去，你知道，就像在所谓的重力辅助运动里有很多这样的例子。

I mean, you can you can, like, crank up loud rock music and just go for it, you know, like and there are plenty of examples of that in in what I'd call gravity assisted sports.

比如说，你要穿着滑雪板跳下悬崖，你可以走到边缘，然后说，这真的很吓人，然后数三、二、一，就跳，然后直接冲出去。

Like, say, you're gonna jump a cliff on skis, like, can get to the edge and be like, this is really scary, then be like, three, two, one, do it, And just like go.

在攀岩中，其实很难做到那样，因为速度太慢了。

In climbing, can't really do that as much because it's so slow.

就像攀岩时，你做一个动作，然后再做下一个动作。

Like when you climb, you make one move and then you make another move.

然后你会想，我还想继续待在这里吗？

And then you're like, do I still want to be here?

基本上，恐惧会更多地侵入你的内心。

Like basically fear creeps in a lot more.

但在重力辅助运动中，你更能体验到那种克服恐惧后突破自己的时刻，比如划皮划艇或滑雪时做的大落差动作。

But sort of in gravity assisted sports, can have more of that moment where you just like overcome your fear and then it happens, you know, like making a big drop in a kayak or like skis or things like that.

而一旦你下定了决心，事情就会以一种或另一种方式发生。

Whereas like once you commit, it's happening one way or another.

总之，这其中有太多值得深入探讨的地方。

Anyway, there's a lot to get into it like

不，不是。

No.

但我是说，我想深入体验一下。

But I mean, I wanna get into it.

我看过你爬半穹顶的视频，我觉得应该是那部。

I I watched a video of you climbing 0.5 Dome, I think it was.

对。

Yeah.

看起来你爬到一半有点害怕了，对吧？

And it looks like you got scared halfway up or

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

嗯，那段视频其实是后来拍的。

Well, so that video is actually filmed later.

所以那段视频里的旁白，是我在讲自己完全一个人无保护独攀时的感受。

So the voice over in that video is me talking about the experience of me free soloing when I was totally alone.

而且我在半圆顶上确实非常害怕，当时在接近岩壁顶部时经历了一段相当创伤性的气候体验。

And I did get really scared on 0.5 Dome when I had this whole sort of somewhat traumatic climate experience near the top of the wall.

但后来我们回去拍摄时，我在拍摄过程中又经历了一次不同的创伤性体验。

But then when we went back to film it, I had a different traumatic experience while we were filming.

没那么严重，但当时真的非常吓人。

Less traumatic, but, but like very scary for a moment.

而且他们把那一段拍下来了。

And they got that on camera.

所以在电影里，他们基本上就是把这两段剪在一起，因为那显示了我真的很害怕。

So they basically, in the film, they just cut the two together as like, because it shows me like being really scared.

半圆顶是什么？然后那个创伤性经历是什么？

What's 0.5 Dome to And start then what was the tragic experience?

对。

Yeah.

半圆顶，对于没看过的人来说，是优胜美地一处非常壮观的岩壁。

So 0.5 Dome, for anyone who hasn't seen, is this just totally amazing wall in Yosemite.

这是一面两千英尺高的花岗岩岩壁。

It's a 2,000 foot granite face.

其实，那是北面（The North Face）的标志。

Actually, it's the North Face logo.

哦，天哪，那就是半圆顶（Half Dome）。

It's a Oh, it's freaking it's that's 0.5 Dome.

哦，原来如此。

Oh, okay.

对。

Yeah.

它是优胜美地一个非常有标志性的岩壁。

So it's like an iconic wall in Yosemite.

它看起来像半个圆顶，但实际上更像是一个被硬塞进去的冰球。

It looks like half of a dome, but actually it's more like a hockey puck just shoved in.

其实它是一个完整的圆顶，具体看你怎么观察。

It's actually a full dome, depending how you look at it.

但是西北面有2000英尺的垂直岩壁。

But the northwest face is vertical for 2,000 feet.

太不可思议了。

Incredible.

然后我就徒手攀登了。

And so I free soloed.

那是我2008年最早进行的大型徒手攀登之一。

That was one of the first, like, major free solas I did in 2008.

某种程度上，那也是让我成为职业攀岩者的原因之一。

And one of the things that sort of made me a professional climber in a way.

但那次攀登，我做的准备少得可怜。

But when I did the climb, I did the bare minimum preparation.

基本上，我根本不知道。

I basically, like, didn't know.

那是我徒手攀登过的最大的挑战。

It was it was the biggest thing I'd ever free soloed.

我其实不太清楚该怎么去准备。

I didn't quite know how to, like, go about getting ready for it.

反正我还是去爬了，但确实练习不够。

Anyway, I I climbed it and and basically hadn't practiced enough.

我当时真的吓坏了。

I was really freaking scared.

偏离了路线，搞糊涂了，跳过了一些部分。

Got off route, got confused, skipped some stuff.

然后到了最顶上，那一刻我极度恐慌，你知道吗。

And then at the very top had this whole moment of extreme panic, you know.

基本上，我就站起来，然后整个人都快崩溃了，但总算是勉强登上了上面那块岩板。

Basically, I got up in some stuff and all sort of, like, crumbled mentally and, like, sort of barely managed to finish this upper slab.

最难的其实就是快到顶点的那段路。

Like the hardest part of the climb was like right near the top.

我当时正试着走过那条岩架。

I was trying to walk across this ledge.

基本上就是这样，那个岩架我正着走也走过，反着走也走过。

Basically, I've walked across that ledge face in and face out.

通常大家是从侧面横着过去，或者是手脚并用爬过去。

Normally people hand traverse it or they crawl across it.

过那个岩架有好几种方式，每样我都试过了。

There are like different ways to go across the ledge and I've done it every which way.

然后我们就在上面拍，我当时就想，好，那我就面朝外走过去。

And then we were up there filming and I was like, oh, I'm gonna walk and face out.

结果真当你面朝外走的时候，才发现那真是吓死人了。

But it turns out when you walk and face out, it's really freaking scary.

所以我就走到一半，心里直喊老天爷，然后就怂了，退了回来。

And so I made it kind of halfway and was like, oh my gosh, and then bailed.

你刚才说，你脑子里好像那种，特别纠结、脑袋一片空白，那具体是什么感觉？

And when you say you're having like a like a crisis in your your mind, what does what is that?

是不是就是那种，哎哟我的天，我到底行不行啊，听起来是什么感觉——我是说？

Is that just, oh my god, what am I like, how does that sound when you Well, I mean,

所以在这种情况下，走过这个岩架，一开始大概有一英尺宽，你的脚完全踩在岩架上，然后你慢慢挪过去。

so in this case, so walking across this ledge, it's like it starts maybe as a foot wide, so your foot is fully on the ledge and you're shuffling across it.

但到了某个点，对，我是说，那真是……

But then at a certain point, yeah, I mean, that's that's

把视频放到屏幕上，让观众看看。

Put the video on the screen for anyone watching.

好。

Yeah.

这就是那个岩架。

That's that's the ledge.

但在最窄的地方，你的脚会悬在边缘外面，岩壁又稍微往外鼓，所以你的背会被往外推一点。

But basically at the narrowest part, your feet are sticking out over the lip of it and the wall bulges ever so slightly, so it forces your back out a little.

然后你基本上就是脚后跟撑着，脚下是大概一千七百英尺或者一千八百英尺的垂直落差。

And so you're basically like rocking on your heels with, I don't know, like a 1,700 foot drop or something or 1,800 foot drop, like straight down below you.

所以，你知道，这真的挺刺激的。

And so, you know, it's like pretty, it's pretty intense.

总之，我本以为能像那样直接走过去，结果走到那个突出的地方，突然想，天哪，这不对劲，不适合我，然后我设法慢慢挪回去，换了个策略。

Anyway, and so I thought I was going walk across it like that and I made it to the bulging part and was suddenly like, oh my God, this isn't like, this isn't for me, and then managed to, like, shuffle back and and change my strategy.

是不是脑子里一片恐慌？

Is it, like, panic in your head?

倒不是那种惊慌失措，而是那种，哎，我真是做了个错误的决定。

It's not panic, but you're like, oh, oh, I made the wrong choice.

真是，情况不妙啊。

Like, this is bad.

这太糟糕了。

This is bad.

你知道吗？

You know?

我是说，虽然不是像那种，五级警报那样的恐慌，但确实是彻底的恐慌。

I mean, it's not like full, like, five alarm bell, like, panic panic.

不过，那时候你就会想，天哪，我真的完蛋了。

But, yeah, you're like, oh, I'm so screwed.

而且你以前也摔过很惨的。

And you have fallen a long long way before.

我听说你小时候有一次从山上摔下来，还打电话给你妈妈了。

I I was hearing about a time when you were young and you fell off a a mountain and managed to call your mother.

对。

Yeah.

那次就像是从一个结冰的滑梯上滑下来一样。

That was like sliding down an icy cooler type thing.

跟从悬崖上自由落体不太一样，更像是从山上滑下来。

It's a little different than like free falling off of a cliff that's like sliding down a mountain.

不过确实，我摔得很惨，然后，嗯，是的。

But yeah, I got totally messed up and and yeah.

对。

Yeah.

而且我小时候经常从高处摔下来，胳膊都断了好几次。

And I've like broken my arm several times as a kid falling off things.

而且作为攀岩者，有保护绳的时候，你经常要经历大坠落。

And And then with a rope, as a climber, you take big falls routinely when you have protection.

这基本上就是这项运动的一部分。

That's part of the sport, basically.

我的意思是，想象从七百英尺坠落当然很容易。

I mean, it's certainly easy to visualize falling 700.

当你站在一个小岩架上，身体往外凸，往下看的时候，很容易就会想，天哪。

When you're standing on a little ledge and you're just bulging and you're looking down, know, it's easy to be like, oh my god.

你知道，就像你只要稍微往前倾一点，就会像跳水一样，直直地掉下去七百英尺。

You know, it's like if you just bend forward a little bit, you're just gonna take a swan dive, like seventy hundred feet to the ground.

这项运动的数据，我是说死亡率，

The stats in this sport are, I mean, of fatalities.

和其他运动相比怎么样？

How do they compare to other sports?

比你想的要安全。

Safer than you would think.

这就是大家都觉得疯狂的事，但其实也没那么疯狂。

That's things everyone thinks it seems crazy, but, it's not that crazy.

我不知道具体数据，但我怀疑它其实和滑雪之类的运动差不多安全。

I don't know actual statistics, but I suspect that it's actually pretty comparable to skiing or something.

你知道吗，就像那些休闲滑雪的人，经常出事，比如掉进树井里，或者从悬崖背后摔下去之类的。

You know, because, like, recreational skiers die all the time, like falling in tree wells or, like, going off cliffs backs and things like that.

攀岩其实出奇地安全，这也是我喜欢攀岩的原因之一。

Climbing is actually surprisingly safe, which is one of things I love about climbing.

我的意思是，攀岩很极端，要么完全安全，要么就会死。

I mean, climbing is very it's very, sort of binary where it's like either you're totally safe or you're gonna die.

而且你死的几率非常非常非常小。

And the odds of you dying are very, very, very small.

但正因为它们在那儿，你才会一直保持警觉。

But because they're they're there, they always keep you on.

你懂我意思吧？

You know what I mean?

基本上就是让你保持警觉，但你其实不太会受伤。

Like, it basically keeps you alert, but you're never really gonna get hurt.

这包括徒手攀岩吗？

Is that including free soloing?

是的。

Yeah.

大部分情况下是这样。

I mean, for the most part.

确实有几个人在徒手攀岩时去世了。

I mean, couple people have died free soloing.

当然，偶尔确实有人徒手攀岩时出事。

I mean, people occasionally die free soloing for sure.

但实际上，大多数顶尖的徒手攀岩者并不是在攀岩时去世的。

But actually, most of the the sort of cutting edge free soloists have not died soloing.

他们是在其他事情上出事的。

They've, like, died in other things.

我觉得这在Netflix的纪录片《徒手攀岩》里也有提到，你的一位同事也这么说。

I think it was then in the the documentary on Netflix, Free Solo, where one of your colleagues Yeah.

Tommy Tommy，其实现在大多数自由单人攀岩的人都已经不在了，这话倒也不假，但稍微有点不太准确。

Tommy Tommy is like, most free solos are dead now, which is kind of true, but it's slightly mis misstated.

我的意思是，他只是随口说说而已，并不完全属实。

I mean, know, he's just, like, speaking off the cuff, and it's not, like, strictly true.

比如有一些顶尖的自由攀岩高手，确实是在无保护单人攀岩时去世的，但他们是在非常简单的岩壁上出事的。

Like a couple of the best free solos have died free soloing, but they died on very easy terrain.

但大多数伟大的自由攀岩者，都是在别的攀岩意外中丧生的，比如翼装飞行，还有的像被巨浪卷进海里，比如有人爬海崖的时候，站在岸边被浪冲走了。

But then the majority of other great free solos have died in sort of climbing adjacent accidents, like wingsuit base jumping and like one got swept to sea by a rogue wave, like while he was out climbing a sea cliff, he was like standing on shore and got swept out to sea.

你知道，就是那种情况，很明显他们在生活中也冒着各种风险，最后挂掉了，但跟大家想的那种方式不太一样。

You know, things like that where you're just kind of like, you know, obviously they're taking risks in their lives and they wind up dead, but it's not the way that people think.

你懂的，看到那样的照片你就会想，徒手攀岩？必死无疑吧。

You know, you see a photo like that and you're like, Free Solo, you're gonna die for sure.

然后你就会觉得，但好像人也不是真的那样死的。

And you're kinda like, well, people don't actually really die that way.

我是说，他们确实有。

I mean, they they have.

我不是说不会发生，但发生的频率比人们想象的要低得多。

I mean, not to say that it doesn't happen, but way less frequently than people would suspect.

如果我想，比如说，专业地折磨你，当然我不是在说极端情况，那我会让你过什么样的生活呢？

If I was to try and, like, you know, professionally torture you, and again, I'm not talking in extremes here, But what life would I prescribe you to live?

哦，就是像金融男那种吧。

Oh, being like a finance bro or something.

一辈子都得做表格。

Having to, like, just work spreadsheets my whole life.

你是这个意思吗？

Is that what you mean?

就是，我最怕的……我也不知道。

Like, what what is my, like, worst I don't know.

差不多那样吧。

Something like that.

或者说实话，当个舞蹈编导之类的，我就是做不来，或者当个歌剧歌手，那我还不如死了算了。

Or honestly, being like a choreographer for dance or something, like, I just I couldn't do, like or or being like an opera singer, like, I would just kill myself.

我真是干不了那个。

I just couldn't do that.

为什么会觉得

Why why would being

做金融就是亚历克斯最惨的事？

a finance pro be, like, the worst thing for Alex?

就是想到坐在隔间里对着电脑，不停地打字那种感觉。

Just the idea of sitting at a computer in a cubicle, just, like, typing.

其实我有点反骨。

I mean, I'm kind of contrarian.

我不喜欢条条框框。

I don't like rules.

我不想被人牵着鼻子走。

I don't wanna like jump through hoops.

我不想做那些没意义的事情。

I don't wanna do arbitrary things.

比如说，不想有个经理过来跟我说，哦，你得再交一次那份报告。

Like, don't want some manager to come and tell me like, oh, you gotta file that report again.

你好像漏了一行。

You like missed a line.

我会直接跟他说，你自己搞吧，然后直接走出大楼。

I'd be like, you go after so, you know, would just like walk out of the building.

就是，我都不知道我能不能受得了这个。

Like, it's just, I was like, don't know if I could take that.

直接说，不要。

Be like, no.

但这就是大多数人的生活方式啊。

But that's, like, how most of the world live.

其实我们每个人都活在，你知道的

We kinda we all live in, you know

我就是不知道这适不适合我。

I just don't know if it's for me.

我不知道。

I don't know.

我是说，那不就是，我确实有过那样的时刻。

I mean, doesn't that just seem I mean, I had this moment.

我在纽约待了两天，坐地铁去看了几个朋友。

I've been in New York a couple days, and I I took the subway down to see some see some friends.

从隧道走出来的时候，感觉里面人挤人的。

And I was like coming out of the tunnel and it's like packed with people.

我当时就是看着地面，心里想，就是这么跟着别人走在这条磨得不成样子的楼梯上。

And I was just like looking at the ground and I was like, just, you know, following someone else's footsteps up this like beat down path of stairs.

我当时就觉得，这日子没法过。

And I was like, I couldn't live like this.

不是每天，日复一日地都这么过。

Like not day in and day out every day.

就是感觉你只是在做和周围每个人一模一样的事情。

Like this is just, like, feeling like you're just doing the exact same thing as everyone else around you.

我就觉得，哎呀，这太无聊了。

I'm like, oh, it seems so so boring.

有意思的是，我们很多人看着你的生活，都会觉得，哇。

It's funny because so so many of us look at your life and go, wow.

那可不是普通的生活。

That's not very normal.

但实际上，也许从根本上来说，你过的生活比我们想象的要正常得多，你看，你在大自然里，你在活动身体。

But actually, maybe at a foundational level, you're living a much more normal life than, I mean, you're out in nature, you're moving your body.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

从这个角度来说，确实是这样。

In that in that way, for sure.

我去体验各种酷炫的冒险，到处走走，我也不知道怎么说。

I'm, going on cool adventures and going out and I don't know.

我觉得这也是大家对你生活产生吸引力的原因之一，尤其是看了《徒手攀岩》之后。你看起来像是一个自由的人，而我们在某种程度上其实并不自由。

I think that's also part of why the the sort of attraction allure with your life, especially when you watch Free Solo, is you do seem to be a free man in a way where most of us aren't free, essentially.

确实是这样。

Yeah.

我想我们都在某种程度上向往那种状态。

Mean, I think we're all sort of aspiring to that to some extent.

不过大多数人觉得，这就像他们拿到了全年的假期一样。

I mean, most people see that though as, like, they get their vacation for the year.

他们计划着总有一天要退休，到时候就能获得自由了。

They they're planning to retire at some point, and then they're gonna have their freedom.

你心里可能在想，嗯，我也不太确定。

You're kind of like, well, I don't know.

我的意思是，也许你应该尽量按照这种方式去生活。

I mean, maybe you gotta try to live that way as much as possible.

如果你们的小女儿来找你们，June和Alice，问你们，爸爸，什么是有意义的人生？

If if you if you young girls came up to you, June and Alice, and said, dad, what's what is a meaningful life?

比如，过一种充实而有意义的生活，有哪些原则？

Like, what are the principles of living a fulfilling, meaningful life?

你们会给他们什么建议吗？

Would you give them advice there?

会。

Yeah.

会。

Yeah.

我的意思是，这会是一场漫长而杂乱的、持续多天的对话，但我觉得，追求自己的目标，肯定是有意义人生的核心之一。

I mean, it'd be a long rambling, multi day conversation with them about but I mean, following your own goals is is I think, you know, certainly one of the the cores of having a meaningful life.

比如，拥有你觉得有价值的东西。

Like having things that you find valuable.

真的，就是按照你的价值观生活，找到对你重要的东西，然后全力以赴去追求它们。

I mean, really, like, living in line with your values, finding things that are important to you and pursuing them with as much as you can give them.