最重播时刻：如何在任何场合展现魅力并占据优势 - 查理·霍珀特

第六点。第六点。我们之前提到过这个。我首先来人性化这次互动。

Number six. Number six. We've said this one before. I go first in humanizing the interaction.

人性化互动？

Humanizing the interaction?

是的。也就是说，当你和一群人在一起时，存在一种预期的社交规范，对吧？通常这种规范比人们希望的要少。就像你之前描述的那样，我希望我的员工能触及真正的问题所在。

Yes. Which is to say, whenever you're with a group of people, there is an expected social norm. Right? And it is usually less than people wish that it was. It's the thing that you described earlier as I wish that my employees would get to what's really going on.

这是一种能力，就像我讲我兄弟的故事那样，第一个开关于龙形名牌的玩笑。对吧？这让整个活动变得更有趣。现在大家都想开玩笑，都想玩闹起来。这是第一个给予赞美的能力。

And it's the ability to be the first one, like I told the story about my brother, to crack the joke about the dragon name tag. Right? And that that made everybody in the event funnier. They now they all wanna crack jokes, and they all wanna be playful. It's the ability to give a compliment first.

有时候人们担心过于赞美会破坏他们的地位。我们确实讨论过，在互动开始时建立乐趣、信任和尊重很有用，然后可以尽情表达。对吧？先是赞美，然后是脆弱性。

Sometimes people are afraid that it'll disrupt their status if they're too complimentary. And we did talk about how at the beginning of an interaction, it's useful to establish fun, trust, and respect, but then feel free to pour it on. Right? Compliments And then vulnerability. Right?

率先行动，分享脆弱的一面。当然，在情感宣泄和不顾对方是否愿意就倾吐之间有一条微妙的界限。但是，是的，深入探讨你内心不安、痛苦或在努力解决但不确定的事情，伙计，你愿意第一个这么做吗？整个房间的氛围都会因此改变。大家都会说，哦，我也是。

Going first, sharing the vulnerable thing. There's a fine line, of course, between trauma dumping and just outpouring without checking if the other person is with you and wanting to go there with you. But, yeah, to dive into the thing that is unsettled in you, or that hurts, or that you're working on and you're not sure about, man, will you go there first? It's like the room transforms around that. It's like everyone's like, oh, me too.

是啊。是啊。我也在挣扎。是啊。我也希望我们能多笑笑。

Yeah. Yeah. I'm also struggling. Yeah. I also wish we could laugh more.

是的。我其实非常喜欢那个人的时尚品味，但不想表现得太奇怪所以没说。当你率先让互动变得人性化时，这正是领导力的精髓。

Yeah. I also am really I love that person's sense of style, but didn't wanna be weird and say so. So when you go first in humanizing the interaction, it it is it is the essence of leadership.

袒露自己的不完美。我在你的一期视频里看到过。这就是你所说的意思对吧？就是愿意展示自己盔甲上的裂缝。

Sharing your imperfections. I saw this in one of your videos. That's kind of what you're talking about there, right? It's being willing to show the chinks in your own armor.

没错。很多像我这样的人会误以为魅力就是要模仿自己崇拜的对象。但他们不知道那个人内心的独白，不知道他们内心的所有挣扎。

Yes. It is. I think a lot of people like me have an idea that charisma is looking like someone else that they admire. And they don't know that person's internal dialogue. They don't know all the internal questions going on inside of them.

而当你能够从自己的现状出发——常有人问我如何应对焦虑？我给出的建议之一，也是在这个播客里多次实践过的，就是直接说出来。

And when instead you can start with where you are, which so people will ask me, how do I deal with anxiety? And one of the things that I've said, and I've done it a handful of times on this podcast, is speak to it.

比如，

Like,

我来这里时感到紧张。如果心里有话却觉得说不出口，不妨冒险说出来。这往往能创造出意想不到的深层连接。

I felt nervous when I was coming in here. Like, if the thing comes up inside of you and it feels like you can't say it, give it a risk. Say it. It often creates a depth of connection that that you wouldn't be anticipating.

幽默感呢？表现得风趣点怎么样？

What about humor? Being funny?

幽默感？我们还没聊过这个，但我认为有五种魅力型人格：高度信念型、真诚型、幽默型、共情型和活力型。高度信念型的人就像信念风暴，一遇到你就能征服你。比如康纳·麦格雷戈。

Being funny? So we haven't talked about this, but there's I think about charismatic types of people. The five types that I think of are high conviction, authentic, funny, empathetic, and energetic. And so basically, high conviction are people that they're that belief storm that when they encounter you, they just win. That's Conor McGregor.

19岁满脸青春痘的小伙子，眼神坚定地说自己要成为世界冠军。史蒂夫·乔布斯也是。他的高管麦克·史考利的故事——不知道你听过没？乔布斯当时对他说了什么你知道吗？

Like, he's 19 years old, pimple faced guy saying he's gonna be a champion of the world without a waver in his eye. Steve Jobs. The story of Mike Scully, who was one of his chief officers who came and worked for him. I don't know if you're familiar with it. Do you know what he said to him?

他说了什么？

What did he say?

当时他们在开会，史考利本来不打算加入。乔布斯就说：'你是想卖一辈子糖水，还是跟我一起改变世界？'

So they're having a meeting, and Scully's not going to join. And he says, do you want to sell flavored sugar for the rest of your life, or do you want to come with me and change the world?

当时史考利是在百事可乐工作？

And Scully was at Pepsi at the time?

对，他在百事。然后他就说，呃...

Yeah. He was at Pepsi. And so he says, ugh.

这话真够分量。确实。而且

That's big. Yeah. And

有一种信念认为我将改变世界，背后有着坚定不移的支撑，这就是高度确信。唐纳德·特朗普就是高度确信的典型。对吧？他输掉选举时，他可不认为自己输了。对吧？

so there's this belief that I'm going to change the world and this solidness behind it, that's high conviction. Donald Trump is high conviction. Right? When he loses election, he doesn't lose elections. Right?

他对必胜的把握程度简直超乎寻常。这就是一种魅力类型，极具力量感。但它也有缺点——可能难以接纳反馈，我想你在康纳·麦格雷戈身上就见过这种情况。

It's a level of certainty that he's going to win that is just next level. So that's one type of charisma. It's incredibly powerful. There's downsides to it. It can be difficult to integrate feedback, and I think you've seen that with Conor McGregor.

要知道，当你形成高度确信时，在生活中保留一些能倾听和接纳反馈的领域也非常重要。总之还有真诚型魅力，我认为特朗普在这方面也有一定体现。

You know, it's it's when you develop high conviction, it's also really important to have some areas of your life where you're able to listen, and we're able to integrate feedback. Anyway, there's the authentic type. This is I think Trump has a degree of this as well.

这是第二种类型。对吧？

This is number two. Right?

真诚型？是第二种。但我想这和特朗普那种真诚不同——我完全相信这个人会当面说出真实想法，不管我喜不喜欢。乔·罗根就是靠这个走红的。如果乔不同意某人观点，他不会无礼，但你绝对能清楚感受到他的态度。

Authentic? It's number two. But the way that I'm it's a different kind of authenticity, I suppose, than Trump, which is I trust this person exactly to say what they think in front of me, whether I like it or I don't. And I think Joe Rogan got big off the back of this. This was this was the like, if Joe disagrees with that guy, he's not gonna be rude to him, but he's you're gonna get you're gonna know about it.

对吧？他会邀请想请的喜剧朋友上节目，纯粹因为想请。当一个人长期保持真实，就会建立不可动摇的信任。就像我见过这人做过可能损害我们关系的事，却依然继续前行，所以我知道他的行为不是为了取悦我。

Right? He is going to have his comedian friend on that he wants to have on because he wants to have him on. And when you do authenticity over a period of time, it creates just unshakable trust. Like, I've seen this person do things that could be damaging to our relationship and just continue to move forward. So I know that they're not trying to please me with their behavior.

我能相信他的言行，可以依赖他，安心地依赖他。这就是真诚型。第三种是有趣型，这类人通常是喜剧演员。

And I can trust the things that they say, and I can trust the things that they do, and I can rely on them. I feel safe to rely on them. That's the authentic type. Third type is funny. These are these are comedians.

和这些人相处很有趣。就像你和他们一起玩，他们全程都在讲笑话，带来轻松氛围。当其他人都在字面交谈时，他们总会引入非字面的内容。

These people are just fun to be around. Like, you hang out with them. They're cracking jokes the whole time. They bring a levity. Everyone else is talking literally, and they're gonna bring in something that is just not literal.

所以任何喜剧演员都符合这点。你是凯文·哈特，你是任何人。随便挑一个。共情型。

So any comedian is gonna fit this. You're Kevin Harts. You're you're whoever. Take your pick. Empathetic.

对我来说，奥普拉是典范，但我觉得你在播客界已经以多种方式成为了奥普拉式的人物。

To me, Oprah is the paragon, but I think you have you have become the Oprah of the podcasting world in many so happening.

那是

That's a

极高的赞誉。但共情型的人确实非常擅长一对一交流。他们帮助他人感到被看见，对吧？他们用真诚提问的方式，让对方分享可能在多数场合不会提及的事。

massive compliment. But empathetic people are they do really, really well one on one. And they they help other people to feel seen. Right? They ask a question with a sincerity that makes the other person share the thing that they might not have shared in many other groups.

我们内心深处都渴望安全地表达自我，但往往做不到，因为身处嘈杂群体或其他原因。所以当我们遇到共情型的人时，他们或许话不多，但我们会特别喜欢这个人，感觉进行了一场很棒的对谈，还想再来一次。

And we all deeply want to feel safe to share ourselves. But we don't, because we're in louder groups or all sorts of things. So when we get in contact with an empathetic person, they might not talk very much, but man, do we leave liking that person. Like, we had a great conversation. Need to do that again.

最后一种是活力型。这可能是最容易补充的类型。我想到早期的威尔·史密斯，想到人们参加脱口秀时的样子——比如跳着舞登上吉米·法伦的舞台。这类人可能幽默感不算机敏，但他们能让人们微笑，因为他们带来的互动能量总是比你预期的高出那么两度。

And then the last one is your energetic type. This is probably the easiest one to add. I think of early Will Smith. I think of the way that people walk onto talk shows, where they would come onto Jimmy Fallon dancing onto the stage or something like that. This is an individual who may not be very witty with their humor, but they make people smile because the energy that they bring to an interaction is just like two degrees higher than you would expect.

对吧？所以他不需要刻意搞笑，能讲个笑话就行。但婚礼上第一个冲上舞池的人，你知道的，是全身心投入的那种，充满活力。我觉得杰克·布莱克就是这样的人。他很幽默。

Right? So it's he doesn't need to be like funny, can crack a joke. But the guy who's first on the dance floor at the wedding is, like, you know, committed to the thing, that's energetic. And I think Jack Black is someone who has a comment. He is funny.

他能讲笑话。但他做每件事时展现的活力才是吸引人的地方。这源于对表演的投入。对吧？你不会刚开始这样跳舞，然后环顾四周发现没人喜欢就停下来。

Like, he can crack a joke. But the energy that he brings to everything he does is what sells it. So this comes from commitment to the bit. Right? You don't, like, start off dancing like this and then look around and realize nobody likes it and stop.

没错。如果你能保持比在场其他人高出一两度的能量、热情和积极性，一开始可能会有人觉得莫名其妙，但随后他们就会加入。因为大家都想放松跳舞、感受快乐，或者至少见证别人这样做。当这种投入是认真的，效果就会非常好。

Yeah. It's if you're if you're able to sustain a level of energy, enthusiasm, and positivity that is one or two degrees higher than the people in the room, at first, there's like, I don't know, and then they they join in. Because everybody wants to relax and dance and feel better, or at least to witness people doing that. And when it's committed, that's when it really, really works.

我如何运用魅力、肢体语言和人际交往能力的理念来提升工作前景？无论是在新工作的面试中，还是争取晋升时？

How do I use this idea of charisma and body language and interpersonal skills to improve my prospects in work, whether that's in an interview setting for a new job, or if I'm looking for a promotion?

关于面试，我首先想到并训练人们的是：面试并不是从你拿着简历走进房间那一刻开始的。而是从你离开家就开始了，如果打车，你需要和司机聊天。懂吗？你需要热身，需要让声带活动起来。

So, the first thing that I always thought about with interviews and trained people to think about was the interview does not start when you land in the room with that person who has got the piece of paper in front of them with your resume. It starts when you leave your house, if you're taking an Uber, you need to talk to the Uber driver. Right? You need to get warm. You need to get You need to get those vocal cords moving.

必须保持活力。进入大楼时，如果是大型建筑有保安，再多说一句。记住：嘿，最近怎么样？这儿新人多吗？我们还会再见的。

Need to be dynamic. When you enter the building, if it's a large building and has a security guard, one more sentence. Remember, hey, how's it going? You see a lot of fresh faces in here? This is not the last time you see me.

这类互动能让你感觉更放松。与其临阵磨枪复习那些技术要点——那些知识要么已经掌握要么来不及了——不如提前15-30分钟调整状态。上楼见到秘书时也是同样的道理。

That type of thing. It just makes you feel a little bit more comfortable. Instead of reviewing whatever technical stuff that you think you need to know, that needs to be dropped before the interview. That's either in there or it's not, like fifteen-thirty minutes in advance. Then you go upstairs, there's a secretary, same thing.

其他候选人也是一样。当你坐到对方面前时，你已经热身完毕，准备充分，不需要从零开始就能展现亲和力，因为总会有那些开场问题。比如你顺利到达了吗？路上还好吗？

There's other candidates, same thing. By the time you sit down across from that person, you're warm. You're ready to go, and you're not starting from zero in order to be an engaging human, because there are going to be those initial questions. Did you get in alright? Did you do this?

只需要多准备一点点，根据情境稍作调整，效果自然就会显现。

Just a little bit, a little bit extra, and it's gonna be attuned to the situation, but it'll come through.

你来的时候已经打开了好几个网页标签页吧。

And you've opened a couple of tabs on the way here.

没错没错。比如问你怎么来的，你就可以说'我在门口遇到了里克，他人超好'。

Exactly. Exactly. Like, how'd you get in? And be like, yeah, I read I met Rick at the door. He's awesome.

对吧？这种细节很有帮助。这是第一要务。面试时你永远猜不到会被问到什么问题，但如果你能把问题转化成故事形式，构建起承转合，形成先抑后扬的叙事曲线。

Right? Like, that's that's gonna help. So that's the number one thing. And then in interviews, there's a you don't know what questions you're gonna get asked. But if you can take what you're gonna get asked and put it into a story format and have a beginning, middle, and an end that has an up, down, up sort of curve to it.

具体来说，他们可能会问'说说你职业生涯中遇到的重大挑战'。如果你提前梳理过职业经历，找出三个关键节点——比如接手某个项目、跳槽转职、完成某项任务——然后倒推构建这些故事。故事要有冲突铺垫：先交代我在某公司工作，然后出现问题，再渲染问题的严重性。

And what I mean is that they're going say, tell me about something that you really struggled with in your career. And if in advance you have thought through your career and you have the three big moments that happened to you, which is you took over this project, you quit this job and moved to this one, and you did this other thing. And then you backwards figure out the story of those. And so the story has this agitating you established that I was working at this company, and then there was a problem. And then you agitate the problem.

情况非常糟糕，所有人都束手无策。于是我采取了XYZ措施，最终圆满解决，还带来了额外收获。准备好三五个这样的核心故事，虽然不知道具体问题，但我保证总能套用其中某个。这样即使遇到没准备的问题，在面试的适配环节你也能从容应对——因为相关故事早已准备就绪。

It was really bad, and no one could solve it, no one could figure it out. And so I did x, y, and z, and as a result, it turned out really well, and then this other thing happened. You get three to five of those things that you know are your core stories. You have no idea what questions are coming, but I promise you, you're gonna slot those five things into it. So you don't need you will not be surprised in the moment if there's a question that you haven't prepared for or heard, because probably there's a story when it comes to this is the fit portion of the interview that you can just you have your story ready.

这展示了你认为公司看重的任何价值观：我坚韧不拔、工作努力、了解行业，并且善于与人合作。这些都融入在你的故事中。还有一个技巧是，在面试结束时，总会有一个环节他们问：你对我们有什么问题吗？我在面试官位置上看到的是，人们要么问一个并非真心想问的问题，因为他们觉得应该问；要么说没有。这其实错失了一个机会。

And it demonstrates any of the values that you think this company wants, which is I'm tenacious, I work hard, I know the industry, and I can work well with people. That's built into your stories. And then one tip is that at the end of an interview, there's always that moment where they say, do you have any questions for us? And what I've seen sitting on the other side of the table is people either ask a question they don't really have, because they feel like they're supposed to, or they say, no, I don't have any questions. And it's just a missed opportunity.

关于这一点，我要归功于我的联合创始人。他提出的这个问题是我没想到的，却获得了最积极的反馈。甚至有人说，我就是因为这个问题得到了工作。问题是这样的：

And so this one, I have to give credit to my co founder. He came up with and this is one of the things that I did not anticipate. I got the most positive responses. Like, I got the job because of this question type of a thing. And the question is, okay.

假设这次面试非常顺利，一年后我得到了这份工作，当你回顾时，我需要做到哪些事情才会让你觉得这是个正确的决定？我在这个岗位上需要完成什么？通常对方会说：我喜欢这个问题，问得很好。

So let's say that this interview went really well, and a year from now, I got the job and you're looking back. What would I have had to have done in order for you to feel like it was a good decision? Like, what things will I have had to have done in that in that role? And so typically, person goes, I like that. That's a really good question.

这个问题有几个作用：首先，你让他们想象面试很顺利并雇佣了你；其次，他们会明确告诉你在这个岗位上需要做什么才能表现出色。这正是每个老板都希望看到的。

And it does a handful of things. One, you've gotten them to imagine the interview going really well and them hiring you. Right? And then second, they're going to lay out for you exactly what you need to do in the role to excel. And that is something that every boss wants.

这就像在说：我希望你关心我需要你做什么才能把工作做好。你可以运用同样的原则，如果你想比预期更快获得加薪，可以在谈话中说：我希望加薪，而且想比常规时间更快实现，但我要确保这对你完全值得。

It's like, I want you interested in knowing what I need from you in order to do a good job. And you can take that same principle, and you could bring it into conversations if you want to get a raise sooner than you think you were going to. To go in and say, hey, I'd like to get a raise. You can make it clear. I'd like to do it faster than usual, but I want to make sure that it's totally worth it for you.

那么从现在起六个月或八个月后，为了让我获得这次加薪，我需要做到什么才能让你觉得这是显而易见、毫无争议的？他们会告诉你具体要做的事情。如果公司说不行，也许你就不该在那里工作。但他们会给你行动指南，你只需执行这些事项并保持跟进，就能走上晋升快车道。

So six months from now or eight months from now, in order for me to get this raise, what would I have had to have done for it to be a no brainer, obvious to you, that this was valuable? And then they will go and tell you the things that you could do. And if it's a company that says, no, you can't, maybe you don't want to work there, But they'll just give you the playbook. And then do those things, keep up with that person, and you're now off track for promotions. Right?

你不是盲目听从安排。但遗憾的是，你可能本来就会做这些事情，但如果不提前沟通，在大多数情况下他们不会主动给你加薪。

You're not just doing whatever they say. And then the bummer is, you might have done those things anyway, but if you don't have the conversation in advance, they're not going give you a raise in most cases.

这很有趣，因为它可以应用于任何销售角色的人。我想到一个私人教练在第一天见到客户时会问：'六个月后，我需要做些什么才能让你感到满意？'或者营销行业、代理机构在开始时对客户说：'如果我们十二个月后还在合作并且你非常满意，那我会做些什么？'这样他们就能明确说出自己希望被如何对待以及期望。是的。

So interesting, because this could be applied to anybody in any role that is selling anything. I'm thinking of a personal trainer who meets their client on the first day and says, six months from now, what would I have done to have made you happy? Or I'm thinking of marketing industries, agencies, turning to their clients at the start and saying, if we're still working together in twelve months and you're really happy, what would I have done? And they'll lay out exactly how they want to be treated and their expectations. Yes.

这样你就能达到甚至超越他们的期望。

So you can meet and exceed them.

没错。是的。这表明你在最初那一刻就在乎。

Yes. Yeah. And it shows that you care in that initial moment.

我浏览了你频道上一些历来表现最好的视频。有趣的是，我能从中看出一些共同主题。有几部表现最佳的视频都有相似的主题。其中一个非常突出的主题是'让人瞬间讨厌你的五种习惯'。

I went through some of your best performing videos of all time on your channel. And it was interesting that I could see themes in them. I could see the several of the best performing videos had similar themes. And one of the really prominent themes was five habits that make people instantly dislike you.

这是关于布丽·拉尔森的视频。在《复仇者联盟：惊奇队长》时期，她有一系列让人疏远的采访。她的一些行为，天哪，就是要在每次玩笑中占上风。比如讨论谁是最强大的复仇者时，对吧？

So that's a video about Brie Larson. And around the time of the Avengers Captain Marvel thing, she had a string of interviews that were pretty alienating to people. Some of the things that she did, goodness, it was having to win every joke exchange. They're talking about, for instance, who's the most powerful Avenger. Right?

他们本来是在互相调侃。比如'托尔是最强的'，而她却摆出一副'实际上我的角色能干掉你的'态度。有种'其实我会赢'的较真感。

And they're sort of being playful with each other. Like, well, Thor is the most powerful. And she adopts this attitude of, well, actually, my character would kill yours. And there's a well, actually quality. It's like, well, actually, I would win.

'其实我会赢。其实你的角色只是个凡人，而我会赢。'这种话第一次听可能觉得可爱，但当有人每次朋友间的玩笑都要占上风时，就变得令人烦躁。我想人们看到了这点，也看到了其他演员的反应。所以其中一条就是：每次斗嘴都要赢，非要占上风——这不是好习惯。

Actually, I would win. Actually, your character is just a mere mortal, and I would win. And it is, like, cute once, but it becomes frustrating to have someone have to win every banter exchange between friends. And so I think people saw that, and they saw some of the reactions of the cast. And so that's one is, like, to have to win every banter exchange and have a burn that you come out on top of, not a good one.

她做的另一件事是以消极态度解读模棱两可的沟通。比如在我制作的这个视频里，她参加的是《连线》杂志的自动补全采访。有个问题是'布丽·拉尔森健身吗？'，而她的回答方式至少对美国人来说明显没有传达出讽刺意味，可能对英国人不同吧，我不清楚。你们有不一样的文化密码。

Another one that she did is to interpret ambiguous communications negatively. So for instance, in this particular video that I did, she's on that Wired autocomplete interview. And there's one question that is, does Brie Larson work out? And in a way that doesn't, at least to Americans, clearly communicate sarcasm, maybe it's different to Brits, I don't know. You guys have a different cultural code.

她说了类似'这是人身攻击吗？'这样的话。

She says something to the effect of, is that a personal attack?

真的吗？

Really?

是啊。然后她没笑。这里其实有两种选择：你可以说'这是人身攻击吗？'然后笑出来。

Yeah. And then she doesn't laugh. And she also so there's two options there. You could say, is that a personal attack? And then you could laugh.

对吧？或者你也可以说'这是人身攻击吗？网上所有人都觉得我胖得不行，就想针对我？我正在努力减肥呢。'你可以不断加码直到显得荒谬为止。

Right? Or you could say, is that a personal attack? Everyone on the Internet thinks that I'm so fat, just trying to jump on me? I'm trying to lose weight. Like, you can you can double and triple down until it's clear that you're being absurd.

嗯。

Yeah.

但她只说了一次，结果显得过度防御。我常说的是要用善意解读模棱两可的沟通。这点很重要。就像如果你看过《足球教练泰德》这部剧，里面全是这种例子。人们会来找他，我刚做了个视频就有个片段是他在飞机上。

But she said it once, and it came through as hyper defensive. And the thing that I talk about is you want to interpret ambiguous communications charitably. This is a big one. This is one of like, if you've watched the show Ted Lasso, this is full of this. People will come up to him, and I just did a video that had this clip where he's on the airplane.

如果你知道泰德·拉索，他是个美国人去了英国，有人对他说，你要去执教英格兰的足球队。天哪，他们太差了，这肯定会很糟糕。你是个传奇。然后他回应说，嗯，你知道，我还没输过呢。

If you know Ted Lasso, he's an American guy going to England, and somebody says, you know, you're you're going to coach the football team, the soccer team for us, in England. Man, they're so bad. This is gonna go horribly. You're a legend. And then he responds, well, you know, I haven't lost yet.

他就是保持着这种积极的态度。面对模棱两可的沟通，他以优雅和魅力回应，不把对话变成争执。这种有意的对初期可能不太友好的模糊表达的误解，效果非常好。这常常能让那些试图挑衅你的人转变态度。

And he's just got this general positive demeanor. He takes that ambiguous communication and responds with grace and charm, doesn't make it a fight. That works so well. That purposeful misinterpretation of ambiguations early on that are maybe not the friendliest. This often will take people that are trying to take dicks at you and make them flip.

如果某人只是社交上有些失态，这给了他们机会不被视为对话中的坏人。所以她在这件事上又做错了。

And in the case that somebody was just a bit socially miscalibrated, it gives them the opportunity to not be cast as the bad guy in the interaction. So that was something else that she did wrong.

有意思。另外，如果其他人也在观察这次互动，如果你倾向于善意解读对方的沟通

Interesting. Also, if if others are watching the interaction, and if you have a bias towards interpreting the communication well

是啊。

Yeah.

那个可能想挖苦你的人会显得很可笑，而你很可能看起来相当得体。

The person that was maybe taking a dig at you is going to look pretty ridiculous, and you're going to probably come off looking pretty good.

没错，完全正确。当我们看到人们用言语为自己辩护时——除了某些例外，比如有人扬言要伤害你——这传达出一种不安全和防御性，就像在说：你为什么要为别人的看法辩护呢？对吧？

Exactly. Exactly. And we when we see people defend themselves against words, with with some exception, when somebody's, like, saying that they're gonna hurt you, it communicates an insecurity and a defensiveness, which is like, why do you need to defend yourself against the opinions of another? Right?

就像特朗普那件事，他专门提到罗西·奥唐奈。

Like the Trump thing where he said about only Rosie O'Donnell.

是的。没错。就像，我不需要为此辩护。这实际上传递出'这没什么大不了'的信号。与其口头说'这没什么'，你不辩护的行为本身就在传递这个信息。

Yes. Yeah. It's like, I don't need to defend myself against this. And it subcommunicates that this is not a big deal. More than saying that's not a big deal, you are subcommunicating that's not a big deal by not defending it.

当我们真正感到自在时就会这样做。假设有人调侃你完全不介意的事情——比如你的事业成就之类的。他们可能会说'史蒂文啊，最近日子不好过吧'。

And that's what we do when we actually feel comfortable. Let's say if somebody were to tease something that you're not at all insecure about. I don't know what it would be. Maybe your business success or something. They come in and like, yeah, well, you know, Steven, real struggling these days.

你会笑出来，甚至会跟着自嘲。有时候应对方法是给这个玩笑'加标签'——用'是的，而且'句式接话。比如有人阴阳怪气地说'史蒂文，生意不太顺利吧'，你可以夸张回应'天啊兄弟，你根本想不到！这几周我快愁秃头了，简直一团糟'。

You're going to laugh. You're going to add on to it. And sometimes, a way through this is to tag the joke that's made at your expense, which is to add a yes and on top of it. So if somebody ambiguous interpretation is saying, yeah, you know, Steven, these businesses just aren't working really well, you'd be like, oh my god, dude, you have no idea. I've been pulling my hair out over the last few weeks, just like things are falling apart around me.

你能这样回应是因为你对事业成就有足够底气。但要注意，如果发现对方形成某种针对模式，就需要采取不同策略。不过对于偶尔的调侃，用自嘲加倍反击往往效果极佳。

You can do that because you, I'm assuming, feel very comfortable with your level of business success. And when you can again, there is a difference when you start to sense a pattern in somebody, that is a different route that you want to take. But if it's just one banter thing that is at your expense, to double down and make it a joke that you're in on is often very, very powerful.

真有意思。最后再问个相关问题：你播放量最高的视频叫《像领袖一样说话，赢得他人尊重》。实际上关于'领袖式表达'的两个视频都表现很好，看来大家确实渴望提升演讲能力。

Fascinating. I'm going to ask you one last question on this. One of your best performing videos is titled Speak Like a Leader. Make People Respect You. In fact, there was two of your top performing videos that were about speaking like a leader, speaking well, which is fascinating to me that people really want to learn how to speak well.

对于自认为不擅长口头表达的人，你会给出什么建议来帮助他们学会领袖式表达？

What advice would you give to someone who doesn't feel like they're a good oral communicator on how to speak like a leader?

能够非字面地回答并将趣味和玩笑融入互动中。能够在对话中触及价值观，这是我们讨论过的很多内容，引导人们关注他们真正想要建立联系的事物，而非天气之类的话题，这也是其中的一部分。

The ability to answer non literally and bring in fun and jokes into the interaction. The ability to get to values in a conversation, which is a lot of the stuff that we talked about, to take people to the thing that they actually want to connect over versus the weather and all that sort of stuff is part of it.

你似乎也会在思考时稍作停顿。有些人会稍微填补这些空白。

You don't you you seem to take a pause as well when you're thinking. Some people fill in the gaps a little bit.

是的，一般来说。我确信我也犯过这个错误。但如果你能用沉默替代任何填充词或口头禅，沉默就是一种真空。

Yeah. Generally. And I and I'm sure I've made this mistake. But if you can replace any filler word, any crutch word that you have with silence. Silence is a vacuum.

关于真空的酷之处在于它们会将注意力吸引到你身上。我认为人们大大低估了他们可用的沉默时间。回顾我早期的视频，我确实严重低估了沉默的价值。我以为必须快速表达所有内容并迅速变得非常有趣，才能保持极高的观众留存率。后来我意识到，当你讲述一个故事并学会在设置悬念的节奏点时，比如‘你知道前几天发生了件最疯狂的事’这样的台词。

And the cool thing about vacuums is that they pull attention to you. And I think people dramatically, dramatically underestimate the amount of silence they're they're afforded. If I look back actually at my early videos, I dramatically underestimated the value of silence. I thought that I had to get it all out there and be super interesting really fast in order to keep that AVD really, really high. And I've since seen and learned that when you have a story and you learn the beats where you've set up the mystery and so there's these these lines that you'll say in a story is like, you know, the craziest thing happened the other day.

所以你会逐渐发现这些‘钩子’，并凭直觉感受到何时让观众屏息期待——尤其是在那时稍作停顿或深呼吸。你不需要事先想好所有细节，这会变成第二天性。这非常有价值。我观察到的练习方法是：录下自己讲故事的视频，回看其中有多少‘嗯’、‘啊’之类的语气词。我看自己的播客时深有体会。

So I'm Like, you you are there's there's these hooks, and you get an intuitive feel for where you've got the audience on the edge of their seat, and especially then to just take a breath or have a pause. You don't need to think all of this out, but that becomes second nature. That's very valuable. And it comes from the way that I've seen people do is when you record yourself, tell a story, and just watch back how many ums and uhs you have in it. When I watch my own podcasts, I'm sure you've felt this.

是啊，天哪，简直可怕。你会开始注意到自己那些小习惯。

Yeah. Oh my gosh. It's horrifying. Yeah. You begin to see your own little habits come through.

说话时肢体语言重要吗？

Does body language matter when I'm speaking?

我想是的。对，对。我通常会教人们几件事，很多人会给自己设限，比如他们可能会这样摆手，表现出这种状态。

I think so. Yeah. Yeah. There's a couple of things that I tend to teach people, which is a lot of people form a tiny little box for themselves where maybe they'll move their hands like this, and they got this thing going on.

那些看不见你的人，你只是那样随意挥手。

People that can't see you're just kind of waving it like that.

我正小幅转动手腕做圆周动作，最重要的是我的手肘紧贴身体两侧。如果我抬起手肘，开始这样说话，比如要说‘我兄弟在那边绿房间里’，这时有两种手势方式：可以用手指在离脸六英寸处指向兄弟所在方向，或者抬起整条手臂指向那边。你占据的空间首先要有吸引力。我们在很多视频里都提到，你不需要侵犯他人空间。

I'm kind of waving my hands in a little circular thing, and my elbows, most importantly, are pinned to my sides. If I lift my elbows off my sides, and I start talking a little bit like this, and if I was to say over here, and my brother's in the green room over there, and I gesticulate there's two ways to gesticulate. I can take my finger, and I can point six inches from my face, the direction that my brother is, or I can lift my entire arm and port over there point over there. The space that you fill is, one, captivating. This is something that we talk about in a lot of our videos, which is you don't need to invade other people's space.

你需要完全占据自己的空间。当你充分占据空间时，会更具吸引力。所以在舞台上，要用你的整个臂展做手势——看，我知道房间这侧的观众能感受到，但这边...对比之下，这边观众可能认为我们必须这样做。但那边...当手肘离开身体两侧时，会传递出一种不适感，这会产生巨大差异。

You need to fill your own completely. When you fill your space completely, it is much more captivating. So when you're on stage, to gesticulate with the the full width of your wingspan, like, look, I know you guys on this side of the room are feeling this, but over here, right, versus I know you guys on this side of the room think that we have to do this. But over here, it just there's a level of discomfort that is comes through in it versus get those elbows off the sides. It makes a huge, huge difference.

还能帮助你提高音量，让你更有活力。

Also helps you speak louder, makes you more dynamic.

我们还没谈到的最重要事项是什么？观众此刻可能正迫切想知道吧？

What's the most important thing we haven't talked about that the audience are probably screaming to know at this exact moment in time?

关于自信，我发现一个真正帮到人们的观念是：没有谁高人一等。你走进职场时，不必区别对待上司；走进酒吧时，也不必区别对待那位美女。确实存在社会地位，我们确实生活在某种等级体系中。

When it comes to confidence, one of the mindsets that I see really help people is that there are no superiors. That you go into your workplace, and you think that you've got to treat your boss differently. Or you you go into a bar, and you think you have to treat the beautiful woman differently. And yes, there is status. And yes, we arrange ourselves in sorts of hierarchies.

但当你意识到——就像我在工作中领悟的那样，这也是我获得破例加薪的原因，一切开始为我运转——你面对的不是角色，不是投资者，不是美的化身。你面对的是人。而他们生命中最爱的人，愿意为之付出最多的人，他们通过与你和朋友相同的纽带产生联系。

But when you realize, and I as I did in my job, and this is why I got the raise off cycle, it's why everything started working for me, You're not dealing with roles. You're not dealing with investors. You're not dealing with avatars of beauty. You are dealing with people. And the people that they love the most in their life, that they would do the most for, they connect with over the same things that you connect with your friends over.

兴趣各有不同，但背后的主题是相同的。他们喜欢做什么来消遣，什么能充实他们，什么能带来快乐，而不是追求一丝不苟的完美。所以，我认为愿意犯这种错误往往是自信的本质。当我放下它而另一个朋友拾起时，我经常看到这种情况。

There's different interests, but the underlying themes of those things are the same. What they love to do for fun, what fills them up, what brings them joy, not looking prim and proper and perfect. And so, like, a willingness to make that mistake is I see is often the essence of confidence. And when I have dropped it and another friend has picked it up, I see it all the time.

这回到你之前说的说服与邀请的区别。不要说服人们，而是给他们建立联系的邀请。是的。是的。你刚才听到的是往期节目中最常回放的片段。

Goes back to what you said about convincing versus invites. Don't convince people, give them invites to connect. Yeah. Yeah. What you just listened to was a most replayed moment from a previous episode.

如果你想收听完整节目，我已将链接放在下方。查看描述。谢谢。

If you want to listen to that full episode, I've linked it down below. Check the description. Thank you.