最常回放的时刻：神经科学家对死后生命的证明！塔拉·斯瓦特博士

所以你丈夫罗宾，你们是2016年认识的，他后来得了白血病，走了。

So your husband, Robin, you met him 2016 and he passed he passed away from leukemia in

2021年。

2021.

2021年。

2021.

从2021年他走之后，你的生活发生了什么变化？

Now from 2021, when he passed away, what what happened in your life?

那段时间你身边都在发生什么事？

What was going on in your world?

如果我当时能隐身在你身边，会看到怎样的情景？

If I was a fly on the wall in your context, what would I have seen?

医生说他最多只能活两周，结果他撑了三个半月。

He'd been given two weeks to live, but he actually lived for three and a half weeks.

他走的那天，离我们结婚四周年纪念日只差两天。

And he died two days before our fourth wedding anniversary.

我四周年结婚纪念日那天，真的在一张张读着吊唁卡片。

So I was literally reading condolence cards on my fourth wedding anniversary.

要不是身边那些人像堡垒一样护着我，我真不敢说自己还能活到今天。

If it wasn't for the people that have around me who became like a fortress, I don't think I would be here today.

以前从没经历过这种事，那种打击简直让人彻底垮掉。

Never having had that experience before, it was just so, so devastating.

就算我是神经科学家、精神科医生，也完全懵了，心都碎了。

And even though I'm a neuroscientist and a psychiatrist, I just was like totally lost and broken.

从那以后，无论我去汉普郡还是伦敦，每次走到窗边，都能看见知更鸟。

And then I started seeing robins in the garden every single time I went to the window, both in Hampshire and London.

我这辈子从没见过那么多知更鸟，以前没有，后来也再没见过了。

I've never ever seen so many robins in my life, like not before or since.

现在偶尔还能看到，但我当时真的注意到了。

I still see them sometimes, but I noticed it.

我心里想：当然了，这正是我想看到的。

I thought, of course, that's what I want to see.

我根本不知道这代表什么，也许根本没什么意义。

I have no idea what it means, if anything.

他走后大概六周，我正睡着，突然听见远处有动静——我们之前被偷过一次。

And then about six weeks after he passed away, I was asleep and I heard a noise in the distance and we had been burgled once.

所以我赶紧去检查是不是车库的警报响了。

So I'd went to check it wasn't the alarm in the garages.

可怎么也搞不清那到底是什么声音。

Couldn't work out what it was.

我以为是远处的鸟，就又躺回去睡了。

Thought maybe it was birds in the distance, went back to sleep.

那时候快四点了。

It was about 4AM.

接着，我被肩膀上一下重击给惊醒了。

And then I got woken up by a massive thump to my shoulder.

我可不敢在你身上演示，那力度我真下不了手。

I wouldn't demonstrate it on you because it would be too much for me to hit you that hard.

不是那种轻轻敲一下的声音。

It wasn't like a tap.

我睁开眼，看见床边有个模糊晃动的身影，像是罗宾正艰难地从糖浆里挤出来一样。

So I opened my eyes and I could see next to my bed a very vague hazy version of Robin as if he was pushing himself through treacle to be seen.

我整个人都呆住了。

And I was just transfixed.

我看着他越来越清晰。

And I saw him become more and more clear.

我能看清他的发型和脸庞。

I could see the outline of his hair and his face.

突然间，他从头顶开始慢慢消散，我眼睛瞪得老大。

And then suddenly he just dissolved from the top down and my eyes went like this.

我还记得看清了他的小腿和脚。

And I remember seeing his shins and his feet.

我撑起肘子盯着看，忍不住倒吸一口冷气。

And I was like up on my elbow watching and I just gasped out loud.

实在没办法了，我去找了几个通灵者。

In my desperation, I did consult a couple of mediums.

结果又出现了那种双重对话的感觉。

And again, I had that dual conversation.

我心里想：这事儿啊，只有疯了、绝望了的人才干得出来。

I said to myself, this is the kind of thing that crazy desperate people do.

可转念一想，我现在疯一点、绝望一点，又有什么错呢？

And within the same breath, it's okay for me to be crazy and desperate right now.

我失去了我最好的朋友，我生命的伴侣。

I've lost my best friend, my life partner.

我原来对这个世界的所有认知，一下子全崩了。

Like, my everything I thought about how the world worked has crashed around me.

最后，那些通灵者也没让我觉得有多厉害。

And I ended up not being impressed by the mediums.

然后某一天，我都记不清具体啥时候了，突然开始想：人走了，真的还能沟通吗？

And just at some point, I can't even remember when now, thinking if it's possible to communicate with someone that's passed away.

他是我丈夫，也是我最好的朋友。

And he was my husband and my best friend.

我一向注重优化大脑、拓展意识，那我自己就应该能做到。

And I am all about optimizing my brain and expanding my consciousness, then I should be able to do it myself.

这就是我后来在《征兆》这本书里写下的那段旅程的起点。

That's the start of my journey that I've written about in signs.

那你觉得自己找到答案了吗？

And do you think you found the answer?

对。

Yeah.

你有多确定？

How sure are you?

百分之百确定。

100%.

我的意思是，如果你说的都是真的，那这简直是个惊天大发现。

I mean, if if if what you're saying is true, then that's a pretty I mean, that's a revelation.

对吧？

Right?

很多人都经历过失去亲人，或者在生活中遭遇过各种形式的失去。

So many people have lost lost people or have gone through different types of loss in their life.

你告诉我，通过这几年的研究和努力，你已经能以某种方式跟他们沟通了？

And you're telling me that through the work you've done over the last couple of years and the research you've done, you understand how to communicate with them in some capacity.

对。

Mhmm.

你百分百确定？

And you're 100% sure.

百分百。

100.

你听好了。

So listen.

我来告诉你我要做什么。

Here's what I'm gonna do.

我要给你提一些问题，可能就是观众在家也会问你的那些问题。

I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna challenge you in ways that I think the viewer might challenge you, set at home.

当然可以。

Sure.

我会试着问一些观众可能会问的问题。

So I'm gonna try and ask the questions that the viewer might ask.

对。

Mhmm.

因为这个观点确实挺颠覆的，很多人都会因此改变看法。

Because there's you know, people the I this idea is quite a significant perspective shifting one.

所以在这段对话里，虽然话题挺敏感的，但我的任务就是尽量当个抬杠的，挑点刺。

So my job in this conversation, although these are sensitive matter matters, of course, is just to try and play devil's advocate where I can.

我想说，你其实了解我的。

I would just I want to say that, you know, you know me.

是的。

Yeah.

我知道

I know

你当然知道。

you do.

你也知道，你多次邀请我回播客，我都是在准备好了才来的。

And you know that you've asked me to come back on the podcast several times, and I've come when I'm ready.

对。

Yeah.

所以你尽管问我那些问题吧。

So I want you to ask me those questions.

好。

Yeah.

那这段旅程是从哪儿开始的呢？

So where does this journey begin then?

你生活中经历了这么一场沉重的失去。

So this you suffer this tragic loss in your life.

你去找了通灵者。

You go to the mediums.

结果他们让你失望了。

You're let down by them.

那这一切是从哪儿开始的呢？

Where does this begin?

你的研究、你的探索之旅，到底是从哪儿起步的？

Where does your research, your your journey of discovery begin?

就是我决定要自己试着跟他联系，这才算开始了。

It starts with this decision to, you know, try to communicate with him myself.

后来我意识到，这事儿不是单方面的——人走了，他们也得学着适应。

There's a realization at some point that it's not a one way thing, that when people pass away, they also have to learn.

就像两个人说不同的语言，得一起学一门新话，才能互相沟通。

So it's like two people having to learn a language to speak to each other, like two people who speak a different language having to learn a language that they can both speak.

我当时就是这种感觉。

That's how it felt.

作为科学家，我自然想尽可能多地了解相关科学，来验证这件事——说到底，就是意识、心灵或灵魂能不能脱离身体独立存在。

Obviously, as a scientist, I then wanted to find out as much science as I could to try to back it up, which really comes down to the science of whether the mind or the psyche or the soul can exist separately from the body.

我得说，在我开始思考这些之前，就在他去世的那一刻——他是在我面前走的——他刚断气，我盯着他的身体，心里特别清楚：那不是他了。他真正的本质，我不知道去了哪儿，但肯定不在那张床上躺着。

And I will say that way before I even started thinking about this stuff, just the moment that he died, which he died in front of me, once he'd actually passed away, I remember a really strong feeling of looking at his body and just knowing that wasn't him And that the essence of who he was, I didn't know where it was, but it was not there lying in that bed.

那你是什么时候意识到，你要开始收集和研究这个观点的——也就是我们其实能通过科学手段，以大多数人根本想不到的方式进行沟通？

And when did you realize that you were going to start to collect research and do research on this idea of being able to communicate in ways that most people don't realize we can communicate through science.

还有，你提到能通过三十多种感官沟通，这指的是和逝者沟通，还是也包括和活人之间的沟通？

And also, when you talk about being able to communicate through these 30 plus senses, is that just with the dead or is that with each other?

比如，我能不能也通过这些你研究发现的感官，来提升自己和活人之间的交流效果？有没有别的方法可以让我也用上？

Like, can I communicate through you know, is there other ways that I can tap into these senses that you discovered through your research that will help me be more effective with the living too?

我觉得，这得从你自己开始。

I mean, I think it starts with yourself.

如果你连自己有34种感官都不知道，那显然不可能有意识地去启用那些你根本没觉察到的东西。

So I think that the fact that if you're not even aware that you've got 34 senses, then you're obviously not consciously tapping into something that you're not aware of.

而且很多感官本来就是无意识的，比如血液的酸碱度，或者血里氧气和二氧化碳的平衡。

And some of them are nonconscious senses anyway, things like the pH of your blood or like the balance of oxygen and carbon dioxide in your blood.

你根本察觉不到这些。

You're not going to be conscious of those.

你很难主动去控制它们。

You can't necessarily exert much control over them.

不过如果你放慢呼吸，或者做特定的呼吸练习，确实会影响这些状态。

Although obviously if you slow down your breathing or you do a certain type of breath work, it could have an impact on those things.

我最终得出的结论是。

The conclusion that I came to.

就像我说的，我好几次都差点儿撑不住了。

So like I said, I went to the brink a few times.

我真的差点儿没了。

I went to the brink.

我给你讲个第一个例子。

Let me give you the first example.

我意识到，十月二十六号就到他去世一周年了。

I realized that the first anniversary was coming up on October 26.

就在那之前大概两个月，我状态还不错，算是目前为止最好的了，但我很清楚周年纪念日快到了，所以想提前调整好心态。

And around a couple of months before that, was doing the best that I had been doing so far, but I was very aware this anniversary was coming and I wanted to prepare myself mentally.

但从10月4号开始，我突然浑身酸痛，持续了六七周，还伴随着极度抑郁，我甚至得对着镜子，逐条核对临床抑郁的症状，确认自己到底是不是真的抑郁了。

But from the October 4, I suddenly like was in aches and pains all over my body, which actually lasted for six or seven weeks and was accompanied by me feeling so depressed that I actually had to look in the mirror and like go through the criteria for clinical depression and work out if I was actually depressed or not.

虽然没全符合那些标准，但身体的疼痛是实打实的。

And I didn't meet all the criteria, but I was in this physical pain.

我完全想不通这是为什么。

I could not understand why.

我去做了个按摩。

I went for a massage.

疼得要命。

It was so painful.

之后整整一年我都没再去过。

I didn't go again for a year.

最后，我翻了翻手机里的日记或日历，回溯到那天——10月4号，也就是一切开始的日子。

So eventually I looked through my diary or calendar on my phone and I looked back to October 4, which was the day that it started.

那天，我带他回家等死。

And that was the day that I'd taken him home to die.

就是那天，我从医院把他接回家。

That was the day I took him home from hospital.

我根本记不得那个日子，但我的身体记得，那种创伤又化成了身体上的疼痛重新冒了出来。

I didn't remember that date, but clearly my body had and the trauma was just reemerging as like physical pain.

后来我才慢慢明白，我得做一些身体层面的工作，才能彻底释放掉那些言语治疗根本触碰不到的残留创伤。

And I only realized quite a lot later that I had to do some somatic work to actually get rid of the last bits of trauma that talking therapy can't actually get to.

身体疗愈。

Somatic work.

就是跟身体有关的，比如按摩、跳舞、艺术、颅骶疗愈、太极，反正只要是动起来的都算。

So body work, whether that's massage or dance or art or craniosacral therapy or Tai Chi, you know, like anything physical.

因为大脑里其实有个地方，是藏在里面的。

Because basically there's an area in the brain, it's actually inside.

我没法在这儿指给你看，但它就在那儿，深处。

So I can't really show it to you on this, but it's kind of inside there.

RAIN里的这一部分，跟语言表达有关。

And that part of the RAIN is to do with articulating speech.

而创伤会让这部分功能直接瘫痪。

And it basically gets shut down by trauma.

像‘我哑口无言’、‘我震惊得说不出话’这种说法，其实暗示着身体里还压着没被释放的创伤，光靠谈话疗法是搞不定的。

So those sort of phrases like I'm speechless or I'm dumbfounded or I have no words indicates the fact that there may be residual trauma that's held in your body that you can't actually articulate and get out and solve through talking therapy.

所以得靠一些身体层面的干预。

So it requires some kind of physical therapy.

这显然跟我对疼痛的感知有关。

So that was obviously to do with my sense of pain.

我花了点时间才慢慢想明白，为什么我的身体要通过疼痛来提醒我、告诉我些什么。

And it took me a little while to kind of put together what that might mean by really like tapping into why was my body manifesting pain to sort of remind me of something or show me something.

但就在罗宾去世后的头几周，他遗体被移走的那天早上，离火化还有不到两周。

But also in the first couple of weeks after Robin's body Robin's body was taken away the morning after he died, and it was just under two weeks till the cremation.

那段时间，我每天早上醒来都冷得发抖，浑身打颤。

In that time, I would wake up in the morning and I would be absolutely freezing cold, like shaking and shivering.

那会儿是十月，还没到深冬呢。

And it was October, it wasn't like midwinter.

我一回家就把暖气开到最大。

And I would blast up the heating.

有别人在屋里时，我才意识到热得跟桑拿房一样。

When someone else was in the house, I would realize it was like a sauna.

其实挺尴尬的。

It was actually a bit embarrassing.

我只好把暖气调低，打开几扇窗。

I had to turn it down and open some windows.

罗宾最怕冷，可他那段时间一直躺在停尸房的冷藏抽屉里。

And Robin actually hated being cold and he would have been in the morgue in a refrigerated drawer that whole time.

我想，可能是我身体对温度的感知，和我不愿直面的那部分——他所在的地方——产生了共鸣，所以我才觉得冷得发抖。

And again, I think it was my sense of temperature that was kind of on the same wavelength as where I didn't consciously think of where he was, but I was feeling freezing cold.

现在回头想想，这些事确实都是巧合，毫无疑问。

So it was looking back, it was things like that that were coincidences, absolutely.

但随着时间推移，我说的是好几年吧，我开始能提出具体的问题，然后真的能得到回应。

But then over time, and I'm talking a couple of years, I could ask for specific signs and get them.

一开始有时候得等很久，后来就变成当天就能发生。

Sometimes at first it would take a while and then it became like it would happen that day.

我脑子里一问问题，马上就能得到答案。

I could ask a question in my head and get an answer.

我之前提到过，那时候我几乎快疯了，不得不开始怀疑一切。

I mentioned having, you know, sort of again being at the brink of my sanity, having to question things.

我当时经历了一种叫‘思维插入’的现象，在精神病学里这是精神分裂症的症状之一。

I was experiencing something called thought insertion, which in psychiatry is one of the symptoms of schizophrenia.

就是你脑子里冒出一个想法，但你清楚这根本不是你自己的想法。

It's when you have a thought in your head that you know isn't yours.

我当时对这种感觉体会特别强烈。

So I was experiencing that really vividly.

你能想象那种感觉吗？

But can you imagine experiencing that?

同时，作为一个精神科医生，我还在对自己说：塔拉，你得意识到，你这明显是出现了精神病性症状。

And at the same time being a psychiatrist that is saying, Tara, you do realize you are having like a psychotic symptom.

所以在我的研究里，我意识到，如果你正在经历丧亲之痛，又不了解我所知道的这些，你可能根本没法跟自己说：其实悲伤，某种程度上就跟精神病很像。

And so in my research, one of the things I realized that maybe, you know, if you're going through grief and you don't know the things that I know, you can't articulate to yourself that grief in many ways is like psychosis.

它会改变你大脑里的神经递质水平。

It's changing the levels of neurotransmitters in your head.

它会改变你大脑里的电化学信号传递。

It's changing the electric and chemical signaling in your head.

我真的特别心疼那些经历这些却没我这样的条件和资源的人。

I just have so much empathy for people that have to go through that and don't have the wherewithal or the resources that I did.

你觉得，人需要刻意培养自己察觉征兆的能力吗？

Do you think one needs to cultivate their ability to see signs?

你觉得这就像去健身房锻炼一样？

Do you think it's like going to the gym?

完全没错， Absolutely.

Totally, totally.

我花了好多年才明白。

It took me years.

就像我说的，我觉得他也是花了好多年。

And like I said, I believe it took him years as well.

所以啊，我说这就像学一门语言，不过你说得对。

So yeah, I say it's like learning a language, but you're right.

这就像去健身房锻炼一样。

It's like going to the gym.

那在这家‘健身房’里，具体该怎么做才能练出识别信号的肌肉呢？

And what does one need to do in that gym to grow their sign muscle?

首先得相信才行。

Well, it always starts with believing.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

你觉得，人们之所以难以触及这些其他维度或层面，主要问题是不是大多数人根本不信这个？

Do you think that's what one of the big issues in terms of being able to access these other dimensions or dynamics is most people just don't believe in it.

所以我不确定是不是该说‘大多数人’……

So I wouldn't I'm not even sure if I'd say most people.

我觉得是很多人不信这个。

I'd say a lot of people don't believe in it.

或者他们其实心里信，但不敢说，怕被人笑话。

Or they secretly do, but they're scared to talk about it because they think people ridicule them.

对。

Yeah.

因为我也说不好。

Because because I don't know.

我的脑子总想着，得有科学证据，我才能相信一件事。

My my brain my brain feels like I need to have the scientific evidence of things for me to accept them.

因为我担心，要是我的信念没经过科学验证，就容易啥都信。

Because I think sometimes I worry that if I don't have scientific rigor around my beliefs, then I would I'm susceptible to believe anything.

我会相信花园底下有个意大利面怪物，会相信世界上所有的宗教、所有的东西。

And I'll believe in a spaghetti monster at the bottom of the garden, and I'll believe, you know, every religion in the world and every and everything.

然后我就没了根，像塑料袋一样被风吹得乱转，完全找不到方向。

And then I'm unanchored, then I blow around like a plastic bag in the wind, and then I have no orientation.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我觉得，好吧，严谨才是我信念的基础。

So I think, okay, rigor is the basis of my beliefs.

我得有点科学证据才行。

I have to have some sort of scientific evidence.

我知道你就是这样。

I know you do.

是的。

Yeah.

我不是说我不开放，我这一生中思想改变过好多次，要是现在还不开放、还不愿意听，那才真是傻。

It's not to say I'm not open minded because I've had my mind changed so many times in my life that one would be dumb now to not be open minded and to not listen.

我同意你对严谨的看法。

I agree with you about rigor.

我完全赞同这一点。

I completely agree with that.

我整个职业生涯都是建立在这个基础上的。

My entire career has been based on that.

但我当时被逼到墙角了，你知道的。

But I just, you know, I was pushed up against a wall.

所以我不得不换种方式思考。

So I had to think differently.

于是我问自己：要是这样会怎样？

And I think the question I posed to myself is, what if?

你确实得换种方式思考。

You had to think differently.

心理学家荣格谈到集体无意识时，说人类都会经历三件根本的事：出生、生活和死亡。

So the psychologist Carl Jung talks about when he talks about the collective unconscious, he talks about those basically three main things that all humans experience, which is birth, life, and death.

所以我们都有这种共同的经历，这其实根植于我们继承的基因和大脑结构里。

And so we have this common experience, which is actually part of our inherited gene and brain structure.

所以每一个活过的人，都会经历这些事。

So everyone who's ever lived will experience those things.

但如果我们回看古人的智慧，首先，我们身体里的碳、氢、氧、氮，都来自宇宙大爆炸。

But if we look at ancient wisdom, for a start, we are made of the carbon and hydrogen and oxygen and nitrogen that came from the big bang.

说白了，咱们都是由同样的东西构成的。

So we're all made of the same thing.

我们的祖先一直生活在自然的循环里。

Our ancestors lived in the cycle with nature.

我觉得，正是我们跟自然断了联系，才让我们这么焦虑、这么不快乐。

I think us actually having broken our connection to nature is a huge part of why we're so connected and unhappy.

比如鲑鱼的生命循环，它一生走完，最后它的骨头会化作森林地面的磷元素。

So if you think of the life cycle of a salmon, for example, it goes through its life cycle and eventually its bones contribute to the phosphorus on the floor of the forest.

所以它从来就没有真正消失过。

So it never really goes away.

在很多方面，我们的祖先一直亲眼见证着自然的循环，所以他们早就明白，一切都会重生，没有什么会真正消失。

In many other ways, our ancestors repeatedly saw the cycles of nature and therefore always kind of knew that everything gets renewed and nothing ever completely goes away.

我觉得，重新找回这种认知特别重要。

And I think that's a really important thing to return to.

你知道吗，当我们质疑事物的时候——你这么做当然没错——我们更应该去看待那些曾经被我们否定、现在却被证明是正确的观念，把它们看作一种开放的心态：也许未来某些现在还看不见的事，会变得显而易见。

I think, you know, when we question things, which you're absolutely right to do, I think we have to look at things that we didn't think were true that we now know are true as just ways of being open to the fact that things in the future might become obvious or known that aren't known now.

保持这种开放的心态，真的很重要。

I think that is an important place of being open minded to sit at.

比如说，我想跟你聊聊黏菌。

And so, for example, want to hear about slime mold.

你要是觉得这话题不值得听，就直说。

You tell me if that's something I want to hear about.

黏菌是单细胞生物，像阿米巴原虫一样，平时各自过日子，只要吃饱喝足，就挺开心的。

So slime mold are single celled organisms like amoeba who go about their daily life on their own very happily as long as their basic needs are met.

但要是快饿死了，它们就会聚在一起，变成一个蛞蝓状的群体——这样就能往有食物的地方移动，比如你的菜园子，从而活下来。

But if, for example, they're facing potential starvation, they will come together and form a slug because the slug can move towards your vegetable patch, you know, a new food source, and they can survive.

同样，如果面临灭绝的威胁，它们也会聚在一起，形成像蘑菇一样的子实体。

Equally, if they are, if they are facing potential, extinction, they will come together and form a spawring body like a mushroom.

它有个菌柄和产孢的子实层，能释放孢子到空气中，飘到各处，让新的小生物在那里生长繁衍。

So that's got a stalk and a fruiting body that can release spores that will go into the atmosphere to all different places where these new baby organisms can grow and thrive.

但你想想，菌柄里的单个细胞其实是在为集体牺牲自己，因为它们根本没机会变成孢子飞出去——它们被困在菌柄里了。

But if you think about it, the single cells in the stalk are sacrificing themselves for the greater good, because there's no chance that they're, they're going to get released into the atmosphere as a spore because they're in the stalk.

所以有些细胞就会耍滑头，往上爬，挤进子实层，把其他细胞挤出去。

So some of them actually cheat and climb up the stalk to get into the fruiting body and displace other cells from the fruiting body.

类似这样的事情还有很多。

So things like that.

比如菌根网络，就是真菌和菌丝如何为树根输送养分。

And for example, the mycorrhizal network, which is how mushrooms and mycelium feed the roots of trees.

甚至被砍倒的树，也能靠菌根网络存活好几个世纪，因为菌丝和树根之间的连接会持续给树桩输送水分和糖分，让它不死。

Even trees that have been felled can be kept alive for centuries because the mycorrhizal network, which is the connection between mycelium and tree roots can bring water and sugar to that tree stump to keep it alive.

而且，真菌和树木之间帮忙，根本不在乎是不是同一种树。

And trees and mycelium don't even only do it for the same species.

它们这么做，是因为它们属于整个森林，彼此之间是共生关系，互相在乎。

They do it because they're part of the entire forest and it's symbiotic relationship and they care about each other.

十年前，这种事听起来简直像天方夜谭。

Things like this would have been like thought to be fantastical ten years ago.

我们现在在洛杉矶，我头一回看见了无人驾驶汽车。

You know, we're in LA at the moment and I saw the driverless car for the first time.

我小时候看科幻片，压根没想到这辈子真能见到这个。

Now, when I was growing up watching sci fi, I never thought I'd see that in my life.

我这么说，是作为认知科学家在谈意识的本质。

So that's all I'm saying that, and I'm saying it from the point of view of being a cognitive scientist and I'm talking about the nature of consciousness.

我不是让你去相信别的什么科学理论，只是说，我们其实知道的太少，以前觉得不可能的事，后来都被推翻了。

I'm not talking about other, not asking you to believe, you know, other parts of science, but based on the fact that we don't know everything, we've learned loads of things that we thought weren't true before.

我坚信，提出这类问题、展开这样的对话，对人类大有裨益——我真想问问，为什么这成了禁忌话题？

I strongly believe there's a benefit to humanity of raising this kind of question and having this conversation, which I ask you why it's a taboo conversation.

我们为什么不能更开明一点呢？

What, you know, why shouldn't we be enlightened?

我们为啥不能感觉更好一点呢？

Why shouldn't we feel better?

我们为啥不能更紧密地连在一起呢？

Why shouldn't we be more connected?

咱们到现在为止干的这些事儿，显然都没啥效果。

Whatever we've been doing up until now certainly hasn't been working.

你是什么时候决定要写一本叫《科学》的书的？

When when was it that you made the decision that you were going to write a book about this called The Science?

在这个过程中，有没有哪个瞬间让你意识到，你得深挖下去，最后还要把这一切分享给全世界？

Was there a particular moment in this process where you realized that you were going to dig deeper and that then you were ultimately gonna share this with the world?

我本来根本没打算写书，但后来我发现自己真有东西可以分享，而且我觉得对别人会有用。

I wasn't intending to write a book at all, but I'd got to the point where I had something that I could share with people that I actually thought would be useful.

到这时候，你已经在和罗宾交流了？

And at this point, you're communicating with Robin?

每天都在聊。

On a daily basis.

每天都这样。

On a daily basis.

你具体说说看。

Give me some color to that.

这话是什么意思？

What does that mean?

能举几个例子吗？

Give me some examples if you can.

比如说，我脑子里会问一个问题，然后答案就自己冒出来，但我知道这不是我自己的想法。

Well, either will be that, like, I'll ask a question in my mind and the answer will come in my mind, but I know it's not my own thought.

或者他会直接在我脑子里给我传递信息，我知道这不是我自己的声音，不过大多数时候是通过各种征兆。

Or I'll just get a direct, like, message from him in my mind that I know isn't me, but mostly it's the signs.

我跟你说过一周年的时候有多难熬。

So I've talked to you about the first anniversary and how hard that was.

到二周年的时候，我人已经在美洲了，刚在摄影棚拍了一周，接着就跑到纳瓦霍族地区外景了。

By the time of the second anniversary, I was actually in America and I'd been filming in studio for a week and then I was on the road on the Navajo Nation.

而那天正好是我原定要从纳瓦霍族地区飞走的日子，也就是罗宾去世两周年的纪念日。

And that was due to I was due to fly out of the Navajo Nation on the second anniversary of Robin's passing.

到那时候，我已经彻底崩溃了，面临一个选择：是能重新站起来，还是撑不下去了。

And by that point, I was feeling a bit like I'd completely burnt out and I had a choice about how to reemerge, know, whether that was gonna be in a good way or I wasn't gonna be able to make it.

我当时心里浮现出一个意象——凤凰从烈火中重生。

And I had this analogy of a phoenix rising from the flames in my mind.

所以那次旅行中，我就对他说：亲爱的，给我一个凤凰的信号吧。

So on that trip, I said, Darling, send me the sign of a phoenix.

你跟谁说的？

You said that to who?

跟罗宾，我心里的那个他。

To Robin in my head.

我选凤凰，是因为这玩意儿太罕见了。

And I chose the phoenix because it's really unusual.

要是我说要一只狗，那我每天在街上都能看到狗，根本算不上什么信号。

So it's not like if I said, you know, a dog, I'm probably going to see a dog on the pavement every day.

但我选了个特别难碰见的东西。

But I chose something that is not an easy thing to see.

我当时人在俄克拉荷马城，那种地方你根本想不到会遇到什么稀奇的事儿。

And I was actually in Oklahoma City where, you know, you wouldn't expect necessarily to see like something unusual.

每天从酒店去工作室，我都要经过唐人街，路过一家叫‘凤凰园’的餐馆，门口挂着特别醒目的大招牌。

Every single day between my hotel and studio, I went through Chinatown and I passed a restaurant called the Phoenix Garden with a big emblazoned like, you know, sign.

去那之前，我从波士顿飞过去，结果波士顿那趟航班晚点了。

And on the way there, had had an indirect flight from Boston and the flight leaving Boston was late.

所以我错过了芝加哥的转机，只好在芝加哥住了一晚。

So I missed my connection in Chicago and had to spend a night in Chicago.

然后我就迟到了，拍摄啥的都赶不上了。

And then I was late for filming and stuff.

所以当我动身去洛杉矶的时候，是星期天。

And so when I was leaving to go to LA, I was leaving on a Sunday.

从星期一开始，我在洛杉矶每天都有一个播客，工作日天天都有。

And from the Monday onwards, I had a podcast every single weekday in LA.

所以团队跟我说，你绝对不能错过这趟航班。

And so the team said to me, we know that you cannot miss that flight.

我们不会让你转机。

We are not going to put you on an indirect flight.

我们向你保证，直接飞洛杉矶。

We absolutely promise you direct flight to LA.

从周一开始，你就知道怎么回事了。

So you'll find from Monday onwards.

我们在荒郊野外待了一整周。

We were in the middle of nowhere for like a week.

其实我那趟航班都没订，因为我们根本不知道会落在哪个机场。

And basically my flight wasn't booked because we didn't know which airport we were going to be at.

我们赶到那天，正好是Robin去世的周年纪念日，而我的航班就定在那天。

We arrived on the eve of the anniversary of Robin passing, and my flight was booked that day.

从纳瓦霍族的弗拉格斯塔夫直飞洛杉矶，就在他纪念日当天。

And it was from Flagstaff in the Navajo Nation to LA flying on the day of his anniversary.

根本没有直飞航班。

No direct flights.

我不得不在纪念日那天经由亚利桑那州的凤凰城转机。

I had to fly through Phoenix, Arizona on the day of his anniversary.

你肯定听过那个老说法吧，买车之后，路上突然到处都是同款车。

You probably heard of that old analogy of when you buy a car, you end up seeing the car everywhere on the road.

我一买新车，出门就发现满大街都是这车，是不是因为心理学里说的那个‘确认偏误’？

Like, I buy buy a new car, then I go everywhere, it seems like everybody's got my car because of do they call it confirmation bias in science, in psychology?

就是一旦你脑子里有了某个东西，你就更容易在现实中看到它。

Where once you've got something in your head, you're more likely to see that thing.

对。

Mhmm.

我觉得真有研究证明，只要你被提醒过某件事，或者被要求去想它，你就会在现实中更频繁地注意到它。

I think they've done studies on this where if you are exposed to something or you're told to think about something, then you'll see it more in the world.

对。

Mhmm.

你怎么能确定你说的不是那种已经被证实的心理现象呢？

How do you separate what you're saying from that proven psychological phenomenon?

我分不清。

I don't.

我觉得你应该善加利用它。

I say use it to your advantage.

但你怎么知道，这事儿在你生活中没真的发生过呢？

But how do you know that wasn't what was happening in your life?

因为如果你脑子里老想着‘凤凰城’，接下来几天你到处看，可你只会记住那些让你有情绪共鸣的东西。

Because if you thought about the word Phoenix and then over the course of a couple of days, you're looking at everything, but you're only gonna register the things that are emotionally reg resonant.

其实过去七天里，我可能早就见过好多次‘凤凰城’了。

Know, I might have seen Phoenix a lot of time over the last seven days

之前就见过。

before

而且

And

对你来说毫无意义。

it means nothing to you.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

留意这个。

Register it.

再说一遍，我觉得这种事发生的次数，还有我设定的标准有多严格，都很关键。

Again, I would say the number of times this has happened, the the sort of like how narrow I make the criteria.

有时候我会说，我得看到一个按钮、按钮的图案，或者‘按钮’这个词，但必须在明天晚上11点前出现三次。

So sometimes I say, I need to see a button or a symbol of a button or the word button, but it's got to happen three times by 11PM tomorrow.

我有个朋友说，我们有个共同点：只要看到一对狮子，就会互相发照片。

And one of my friends says that, you know, we share something, which is if you see a pair of lions, and we send each other pictures of it.

但她觉得，必须是你特意绕路，走了条不一样的路，然后才看到它们，才算数。

But she says it has to be if you went out of your way and you walked a different way and then you saw them.

要是你平时就走那条路，或者你知道那儿肯定有狮子，那就不算。

If it's like, you know, the normal way that you go or somewhere that you know that they exist, that doesn't count.

必须是你特意绕了远路才行。

It has to be if you went out of your way.

我以前跟罗宾也有过类似的事，是关于数字8或者无穷符号的。

So I had a previous thing with Robin, which is about the figure of eight or the infinity symbol.

书里讲过，我刚认识他的时候，这个符号老是莫名其妙地出现。

And there's a story in the book of how that was cropping up for me when I actually met him.

但最近有天，我一整天安排了三场间隔很松的会议。

But there was a day recently where I had some spaced out had three spaced out meetings in the day.

我就想，干脆趁这机会，每场会之间散个步，走足一小时。

So I thought I'll take the opportunity to walk for an hour between them all.

结果当天最后一场会前，我路过UCL医院——就是他接受治疗的那家医院。

And for the last meeting of the day, I ended up walking past UCH, which is University College Hospital, where he was having treatment.

那时候他在那家医院接受治疗，对我来说真是特别痛苦的一段日子。

And that had been a really traumatic time for me when he was in hospital there.

从那以后，我差不多一直刻意避开那片区域。

And I will have to say I kind of avoided that area since then.

我想跟你说个特别让我受创的经历。

I'll tell you about a particular story that was like really traumatizing for me.

那天我去参加一个新书发布会，走路过去的时候，又经过了那家医院。

So on this walk to where I was going for the evening for a book launch event, I ended up walking past the hospital.

我心里忍不住问：为什么偏偏让我走这条路？

And I actually said in my head, like, why would you make that happen to me?

为什么非得让我经过那栋楼？

Like, why do I have to walk past that building?

我这辈子都不想再看到那栋楼了。

I never want to see that building again in my life.

我又在心里说：你得给我一个信号才行。

And again, I said, you have to send me a sign.

等我走到尤斯顿车站的时候，你们要是不清楚那地方，上谷歌搜一下就知道了，其实没多远。

And by the time I got to Euston Station, so, you know, people who don't know can Google this, it's not very far.

人行道上有个像字母H形状的橡皮筋，这对我意义重大。

There was an elastic band in the figure of H sign on the pavement and that means something to me.

说到确认偏误，其实它跟网状激活系统有关——这是大脑里负责过滤信息的机制，把不重要的事挡在外面，只让你注意到对生存关键的东西。

So the thing about this confirmation bias thing is it's dependent on the reticular activating system, which is the system of your brain that filters out what's not crucial to your survival and filters in what it wants you to notice.

所以我书里写过一件事，就是‘觉察的艺术’。

And so actually, one of the things I've written about in the book is the art of noticing.

因为现在的生活节奏快得像一百英里每小时，你根本没空留意身边的事。

Because really, we live in this world where life is passing you by at 100 miles per hour.

你错过的那些细节，其实本可以让你活得更好，而不只是勉强撑着活下去。

You're not noticing things that could actually be crucial to you thriving rather than you just surviving.

在一种叫‘共享特质脆弱性’的模型里，这属于神经美学的研究范畴。

And in this model called shared trait vulnerability, which falls under the field of research called neuroaesthetics.

说白了，创造力本来就是一种积极的人格特质，对吧？

So basically, creativity is a positive personality trait, right?

但创造力和精神疾病之间有着很强的相关性，比如抑郁症、精神分裂症和酗酒。

But there is a high correlation between creativity and psychopathology, which is mental illness, particularly depression, schizophrenia and alcoholism.

很多著名的创意人士都患有精神疾病，比如亚历山大·麦昆、科特·柯本、梵高。

And there are quite a few high profile examples of creative people who had mental illnesses like Alexander McQueen, Kurt Cobain, Van Gogh.

这说明，精神疾病患者之所以特别有创造力，是因为他们的大脑有三种独特的思维方式在起作用。

So what that shows is that there's an area of overlap of three particular ways of thinking that are underpinned by neurology that are the reasons that people with mental illness are so creative.

第一种就是超强的连接能力。

And they are basically hyperconnectivity.

这其实包含两个层面。

So that's two things.

一方面，是能把现实世界中别人看不到的关联串联起来；另一方面，是大脑内部的超强连接。

That's joining the dots in the material world of things that aren't obvious to other people, but it's also hyperconnectivity inside the brain.

你可以想想大脑的各个脑叶，负担可不轻。

So if you think about all these lobes, heavy.

再想想这些脑叶，同时活跃的脑叶越多，还有一块叫联合皮层的区域也很关键。

If you think about all these lobes, the more lobes that are firing at the same time, and there's also a cortex that's known as the association cortex.

所以呢，这些脑区可能在活跃，但彼此之间并不一定连得起来。

So that one, you know, these lobes can be firing, but they're not necessarily connecting up with each other.

大脑里这些活跃区域连得越紧密，就越容易冒出新点子。

The more interconnected all this firing is in the brain, the more the brain opens up to new ideas.

而这正是创造力的根基。

And so that underpins creativity.

而且这通常跟视觉皮层关系密切，它就在枕叶区域。

And also this usually really involves the visual cortex, which is in the occipital lobes.

所以有时候，不管是通过致幻剂，还是通过创作带来的意识状态改变，人就能看到以前根本看不到的东西。

And that's why sometimes people, whether it's through psychedelics or, you know, sort of altered states of consciousness through creativity can see things that they didn't see before.

还有一种叫‘新奇显著性’的现象，就是能注意到那些你平时会忽略的新事物或重要细节。

There's also something called novelty salience, which is noticing new things or just noticing things of importance that you would otherwise have filtered out.

另外还有一种叫‘减弱的潜伏抑制’，或者叫‘低潜伏抑制’，跟这个过滤机制有关。

And there's something called attenuated latent inhibition or low latent inhibition, which is to do with that filter.

意思是说，这个过滤器允许更多信息溜进来，比正常情况下多得多。

And it means that the filter allows more things in than it normally does.

所以你看，我们现在有过度连接，能注意到更多东西，而且那个过滤器也松动了，让更多信息涌进来。

So you can see we've got hyper connection, we've got noticing more things, and we've got the filter like loosening and allowing more things in.

如果你智商高、工作记忆强，还有认知灵活性——就是能跳出框架思考，那这简直是绝佳组合。

Now, if you've got a high IQ, high working memory, and you've got cognitive flexibility, which is you can think out of the box, that's a really good thing.

但如果你智商偏低，工作记忆有缺陷，再加上一种叫‘刻板重复’的现象——老是绕着同一个念头打转，那就很容易陷入心理危机。

If you've got a low IQ, you've got deficits in your working memory and you've got what's called perseveration, which is you just go over the same thought process over and over again, that can lead to you having a psychological crisis.

于是我想到，如果悲伤真的像精神病，而我现在又特别脆弱，那创造力是不是能成为我的通道，不仅让我回到从前的状态，还能让我进入一种更开阔的觉知，想什么时候松开过滤器，就什么时候松开？

So I took that model and thought, if grief is like psychosis and I'm currently in a very vulnerable state, is creativity a conduit for me to get not only back to the state that I was in before, but into a state of expanded awareness where I can loosen the filter as I choose, as I choose fit.

我能注意到那些以前根本不会留意的细节。

I can notice things that I would have passed by before.

我还能换种方式去想：我的大脑是怎么运作的，世界是怎么运转的，甚至人死后到底会发生什么。

And I can think differently about how my mind works, how the world works, possibly what happens after someone passes away.

然后我就去研究了濒死体验、临终清醒，还有黑暗静修这些事。

And then I went and looked into near death experiences and terminal lucidity and dark retreats.

就像我说的，我彻底陷进去了。

Like I said, I went down a rabbit hole.