基督教权威第一人：揭秘基督教的真相！耶稣存在的历史证据（史学家实证）

是的

Yeah.

所以，如果我今天要写这件事，我会填补一些空白。

And so if I was to write about that today, I would be filling in some some gaps.

尤其是，这一直是我一直难以处理的问题：在一个我们不了解科学的世界里。

Especially especially this is the other thing that I always struggled with is, like, especially in a world where we didn't understand science.

现在，我祖母把它放在一张卡片里，我打开它的时候就是这样。

Now my grandmother, like, put it in a card, it was like I opened it.

她通常是用一种惊喜的方式做的。

And the way she did it was often as a surprise.

所以在一个我完全不懂物理或科学的世界里，我可能会认为我母亲或祖母做了某种神奇的事情。

So in a world where I, like, didn't understand physics or science, I might have concluded that my mother my grandmother did something, like, magical.

嗯哼

Mhmm.

在我们对宇宙、行星、太阳系和物理学几乎一无所知的时代。

You know, at a time when we didn't understand anything about, like, really much about the nature of the universe and planets and the solar system and physics.

所以，是否存在这样的风险：那些通过上帝之手转化到我面前这本书中的内容，可能会像传话游戏一样失真，或者仅仅是因为对世界本质缺乏理解，比如复活这样的事件。

So I is that a risk that some of the things that have been transmuted via God into this book in front of me are prone to Chinese whispers and or just like a lack of understanding about the nature of the world, like the resurrection, for example.

是的。

Yeah.

因此，在我的领域里，这被称为神话漂变。

So this is, this is in my field referred to as mythological drift.

那么，我们该如何确保神话漂变不会发生呢？

So how do we factor in making sure that mythological drift doesn't happen?

我认为，这与你提到的几点有关。

I think there are a couple of things related to what you said.

首先，我认为在将古代世界简单地视为前科学时代，因而普遍无知时，需要格外谨慎。

First off, I think I would be careful in trying to ascribe the ancient world as being prescientific and therefore largely, say, ignorant.

我的意思是，即使在福音故事中，天使向玛利亚显现并说‘你将怀上孩子’时，玛利亚对天使的回应也是一个科学性的质疑。

I mean, even when the angel comes to Mary in the gospel story and says, You're going to be with child, Mary's objection to the angel is a scientific one.

我还没有满足生育孩子所需的最基本条件。

I haven't met the minimum requirements of how babies are made.

因此，我不可能怀孕。

Therefore, I can't be pregnant.

对吧？

Right?

所以她并不笨，对吧？

So she's not dumb, right?

她并不是表面上就接受所谓的‘我相信天使’这种说法。

She's not just at face value accepting that, you know, well, I believe in angels.

然后觉得这种神奇的事情就会发生。

And so, you know, this kind of magic thing can happen.

她依然从科学角度提出质疑，即使她可能没有术语来理解分娩和胚胎学等复杂细节。

She's still objecting scientifically, even though she might not have the terminology to understand like the complexities of childbirth and embryology and all of that.

所以我认为，这就是作家C。

So I would say, you know, this is what the writer C.

S。

S.

刘易斯称之为时代偏见，他说我们必须小心，不能因为 ourselves 是启蒙时代的产物，如今懂得科学，就认为古代世界的人更无知、更愚蠢。

Lewis calls chronological snobbery, that he says, we know we need to be careful of not to ascribe the ancient world as being more ignorant and stupid than than, you know, just because we are a product of the enlightenment and we understand scientific things now.

第二点是，我认为‘传话游戏’或‘电话游戏’，不管你怎么叫它，都是一个很好的案例研究。

The second thing is, I think that the Chinese whispers or the telephone game or whatever you call it, is a good kind of case study.

我认为它的不足之处在于，如果你玩传话游戏，玩‘传话’，必须有一些规则才会扭曲信息。

I think where it falls short is that if you play the telephone game, if you play Chinese Whispers, there are rules in order to corrupt the message.

所以你必须低声说话。

So you have to whisper.

你只能讲一次。

You can only say it once.

你必须一对一地传递。

You have to do it one person to one person.

在口头文化中，你会不断听到这些故事。

In an oral culture, you would have been hearing these stories constantly.

因此，当这些故事被讲述时，它们是在一代人之内传播的，期间可能有人会说，五饼二鱼喂饱五千人的故事，那可是很多人啊。

So when some of these stories are told, they're being told within a lifetime where there could have been individuals who say the story of the feeding of the 5,000, that's a lot of people.

所以有很多人亲眼见证了这一事件。

So there's a lot of witnesses to this particular event.

因此，如果你把这件事记录下来，就意味着有很多人可以口头证实所说的内容，尽管不一定是以文字形式。

So if you're writing this down, there's an aspect of there are people out there who could verify what is being said, at least orally, not necessarily like literarily.

同样地，

Likewise,

什么

what

我们在福音书的记载中看到，特别是在耶稣死后，门徒们宣扬他的复活时，他们回到了耶路撒冷——也就是事件发生的现场。

we have in the Gospel accounts, particularly after Jesus' death, when the disciples proclaiming his resurrection, they go back to Jerusalem, which is the scene of the crime.

所以他们回到耶稣被钉十字架的确切地点，开始告诉人们他已从死里复活。

So they go back to the exact place where Jesus was crucified and start telling people he was risen from the dead.

如果故事中存在某种不诚实的成分，那就不会回到人人都亲眼目睹过那件事的地方。

If there is some aspect of, say, disingenuousness in making up a story, don't go back to the place where everybody could have seen that thing happen to that degree.

对吧？

Right?

所以从某种意义上说，‘传话游戏’这个比喻并不恰当，因为它更像是一百个人在同一间屋子里，都口头传达同一件事，然后让其他人复述，并相互印证所发生的内容。

So in one sense, Chinese whispers is a faulty analogy in that it's less like one person whispering into another's ear and more like 100 people in a room all saying, communicating the thing verbally, and then getting the other people to repeat it back to them, and then corroborating with the other individuals of what's going on.

我认为你提到的关于你祖母和那封信的故事，这个观点很好。

Now, I think there I think your point in the story of your grandmother and, you know, the letter and is a good one.

你知道，我们是如何记住事情的？

You know, how do we remember things?

你还记得9·11事件吗？

Do you remember nineeleven?

是的，我记得。

Yes, I do.

对。

Yes.

当时我在英国。

And I was in The UK at the time.

你能更生动地描述一下，2001年9月11日那天你正在做什么，和你祖母收到那封信的情况相比？

Could you tell me a little bit more vividly what what you were doing on 09/11 compared to your grandmother and the letter?

是的，我可以。

Yes, I could.

对。

Yeah.

我记得那天从学校回家，和我爸一起盯着屏幕看，我们所有人都盯着屏幕。

I remember coming home from school and, like, watching it on the screen and my and my dad having it on the screen and us all just looking at the screen.

是的。

Yeah.

我也是。

Me too.

虽然我记不清那一年其他普通日子发生的事，但我能清楚地说出2001年9月11日那天发生了什么。

So whereas I couldn't tell you much of what else happened during an average day in that year, I could tell you what happened on 09/11/2001.

这是因为当时事件本身的性质。

And that's because of the nature of what was going on.

我认为当我们谈论福音书故事时，首先，我真心相信这些故事至少源自一些亲眼目睹并多次在不同场合听到耶稣讲道的人的证词。

And I think when we're talking about the Gospel stories in particular, first you have what I genuinely believe are eyewitness accounts from at least the source information coming from a group who would have heard Jesus be preaching these things multiple times in multiple different settings.

比如，作为一个四处奔波的人，我可能已经就某个主题多次讲过同样的内容。

Like it's probably likely, myself as an itinerant, I have given the same talk on a particular subject quite a few times.

是的。

Yeah.

我常跟妻子开玩笑说，她自己就能讲我关于圣经历史可靠性的演讲。

And I joke with my wife that she could give my talk on the historical reliability of the Bible herself.

你知道，如果我生病了，我就直接派我妻子去。

You know, if I'm sick, I'll just send my wife.

对吧？

Right?

因为她已经听过很多遍了。

Because she's heard it so many times.

我认为门徒们的情况也是如此。

I think that's the case that's going on with the disciples.

他们曾多次听过，比如《八福》。

There's an aspect of they would have heard, say, the Beatitudes.

是的

Yeah.

耶稣很可能不止一次讲过这些内容，这不仅是游历讲道者的常态，也是古代游历拉比的普遍做法。

That Jesus, most likely more than once is the case, because that's just the nature of not just itinerant speaking, but even traveling rabbis in the ancient world.

接着，发生了一件在他们自我认知叙事中堪称天翻地覆的事件。

And then you have this event that is kind of earth shattering in terms of their narrative of who they are.

他们已经连续三年跟随这位拉比四处旅行。

They've been traveling with this rabbi for three years straight.

他们反复聆听他的教导。

They've been hearing his teaching.

他们目睹了至少福音书中记载的那些神迹。

They've been seeing miracles, at least that are recorded in the Gospels.

都是非常非凡的事情。

Pretty phenomenal things.

然后他被逮捕，并在公众面前被处决。

And then he gets taken and he's murdered publicly.

他们以为一切都结束了。

And they think it's over.

他们认为，你知道的，古代世界中还有其他弥赛亚运动，但大多数我们平时都听不到。

They think, you know, there are other messianic movements in the ancient world, most of which you and I aren't hearing on a regular basis.

因为当这些人物去世后，他们的运动也就随之消亡了。

Because when those individuals die, their movement dies with them.

所以他们以为正在发生的就是这种情况。

And so that's what they think is happening.

对吧？

Right?

所以他们想，好吧，我们完了。

So they think, okay, we're done.

据记载，他们躲在楼上房间里，感到害怕。

So the story is they're hiding in this upper room and they're scared.

事实上，是妇女们承担起了去探明情况的责任，这在当时的文化背景下其实是个尴尬的事实，因为那时的社会动态就是这样。

In fact, it's the women who take on the responsibility of like going and figuring things out, which in terms of, the time period is actually an embarrassing fact because of the kind of cultural dynamics of what's going on.

于是，门徒们以为这一切都结束了。

And so you have the disciples who think it's over.

是什么让十一个门徒如此恐惧？因为其中一人，犹大，去自杀了，剩下的十一个门徒躲在楼上的房间里，觉得一切都完了。

What is it that has 11 scared disciples, because one of them, Judas, goes and he kills himself, 11 scared disciples hiding in an upper room thinking that's it, we're done.

彼得、雅各和约翰干脆重新回去打鱼算了，因为一切都结束了。

We might as well, you know, Peter, James, and John might as well just go back to being fishermen, because that's all she wrote.

而他们后来却有勇气走出去，公开宣扬这一信息，甚至为此在余生中承受迫害与苦难？

To then having the boldness to go out and actually proclaim this message, ultimately to the level of persecution and hardship that they endure for the rest of their lives?

这是因为他们的拉比再次活了过来。

Well, it's that their rabbi then shows up alive again.

所以，至少我们可以认为，这是一件在他们生命中发生的极其重大的事件。

And so at minimum, I think what we can say is that this is a pretty drastic event that takes place in their life.

这对他们来说，就像9·11事件一样。

It's a comparative to a nineeleven event for them.

因此，就他们对拉比、对老师被杀害的记忆而言。

And so in terms of like the memory imprint that they are experiencing for the murder of their rabbi, of their teacher.

然后，他们的人生从此发生了转变，持续了余生。

And then something happening where they then go for the rest of their lives.

关于殉道的故事，在历史可靠性方面有些复杂。

The martyrdom stories are a little bit tricky in terms of their historical reliability.

我认为其中一些确实发生过。

I think a few of them we can say did happen.

但很多都还存疑。

A lot of them is kind of up in the air.

但至少，他们遭受了迫害。

But at minimum, they suffered persecution.

圣经中的故事说，他被钉在十字架上，遭谋杀，然后被安葬在坟墓里。

So the story in the Bible is that he was killed on the cross, murdered on the cross, and then he was put into a tomb.

是的。

Mhmm.

那么，是谁看见他从坟墓里出来呢？

And then who saw him come out of the tomb?

所以没有人亲眼看到他从坟墓里出来。

So nobody physically sees him come out of the tomb.

但妇女们在早晨、第三天来到坟墓，发现坟墓是空的。

But the women go to the tomb in the morning and on the third day, and the tomb is empty.

所以有四个不同的记载，对吧？

And so there are four accounts, right?

我觉得有趣的是，我们有四个记载，各自从不同的角度讲述了这些故事。

And I think it's interesting also that we have four accounts that kind of gave different angles on the stories.

它们并不是坐在一起互相核对、然后都讲出相同的故事。

They're not, it's not as if they got together and they corroborated and all gave the same story.

事实上，我们有四个记载，各自突出了不同的细节，这种差异我认为反而增强了其可信度。

The fact is that we have four accounts that kind of capitalize on different angles, which the differentiation in detail, I think actually gives credibility to the reliability of it.

因为如果他们都讲得一模一样，你可能会说他们串通好了。

Because if they're all telling the same thing, you could argue that they got together and they colluded.

但他们并没有这么做。

They don't do that.

事实上，它们涉及了故事的不同方面。

In fact, they touch on different aspects of the story.

这些人说他们亲眼看到他走出来了嗎？

Are these people saying that they saw him walk out?

他们只是说看到墓穴是空的吗？

Are they saying that they just saw it empty?

这些目击者对他的复活做出了什么主张？

What is the claims being made about his resurrection from these witnesses?

是的。

Yeah.

所以墓穴是空的。

So the tomb is empty.

墓穴是空的。

Tomb is empty.

有趣的是，在其中一个记载中，玛丽在墓穴旁，她真的和耶稣交谈了，但她把他误认为是园丁。

And so it's interesting, in one of the accounts, Mary's at the tomb, and she actually talks to Jesus, but she confuses him with a gardener.

现在我觉得有趣的是，她并没有把园丁误认为耶稣。

Now, I think it's interesting that she doesn't confuse the gardener with Jesus.

她把耶稣误认为园丁。

She confuses Jesus with the gardener.

也就是说，她以为自己正在和的人不是耶稣。

Like, she thinks that this person she's talking to isn't Jesus.

她一开始并没有认出他。

She doesn't recognize him at first.

她问他，你知道的，发生了什么事？

And she asks him, you know, what happened?

为什么墓穴被打开了？

Why is the tomb opened?

尸体去哪儿了？

Where did the body go?

还有一个记载说，有天使显现，问：你们为什么在死人中找活人呢？

And then there's also an account of an angel appearing and saying, why are you looking for the living among the dead?

他不在这里。

He's not here.

他复活了。

He's risen.

然后他们回到门徒那里，门徒们正躲在一个楼上房间里。

And then they go back to the disciples who are, you know, hiding in this upper room.

玛丽说，我见到他了。

Mary says, you know, I've met you.

坟墓是空的。

The tomb's empty.

我见到耶稣了。

I've met Jesus.

耶稣不在坟墓里。

Jesus is not in the tomb.

他复活了。

He's risen.

他们中有些人甚至不相信她。

And some of them don't even believe her.

他们觉得她疯了。

They think she's crazy.

我们并没有关于墓穴被打开的目击证词。

Now, we don't have like an eyewitness account of the tomb being open.

这在古代世界实际上是一个令人尴尬的事实。

And this is actually an embarrassing fact in the ancient world.

因此，我之前提到的那些后来写成的其他福音书，比如《多马福音》、《犹大福音》、《玛丽福音》、《彼得福音》，其中有一部《彼得福音》，试图修正这个事实——即妇女是空墓的第一批目击者，这在古代世界是一个令人尴尬的事实。

So some of those other Gospels that I mentioned earlier that are written later on, Gospel of Thomas, Judas, Mary, Peter, there's one of them, the Gospel of Peter, which is actually trying to remedy this fact that women are the first eyewitnesses to the empty tomb, which is an embarrassing fact in the ancient world.

如果这不是真的，如果他们是编造的，那么他们几乎不可能这样做。

If that's not true, if they made it up, seems it very unlikely that they would have done that.

因为在当时的希腊罗马社会，以及不幸的是，在犹太社会中，妇女都不被视为可靠的目击者。

Because women are not considered good eyewitnesses in either Greco Roman or, unfortunately, Jewish society in this time period.

因此，《彼得福音》试图通过让所有正确的人在正确的时间出现在正确的地点来修正这一情况。

So the Gospel of Peter tries to remedy the situation by having all of the right people in the right place at the right time.

它描述了犹太和罗马官员在墓穴前守候，亲眼目睹了石头滚动、耶稣走出等情景。

It has the Jewish and the Roman officials camping out in front of the tomb when it actually happens, and then has this recounted the story of the, literally the stone moving, Jesus coming out, all these things.

我们知道这在历史上并不可靠。

Now we know it's not historically reliable.

我们知道这一点，是因为它成书的时间。

We know that because of when it was written.

我们还知道，在逾越节前夕，祭司不会守候在尸体前。

We also know that on the eve of Passover, the priest would not be camping out in front of a dead body.

这在历史上是时代错置的。

It's just historically anachronistic.

但它是一个后来的文学记载，对这里关于空墓的传记信息感到尴尬。

But it is an account of a literary source later on that is embarrassed by what we find in here about the biographical information of the empty tomb.

所以，只是两个女人说她们在耶稣死后以某种形式遇见了他，其中玛丽亚是他的母亲吗？

So is it just two women that said they met Jesus in some form after his death, Mary being one of them, which was his mother?

不是。

No.

玛丽是谁？

Who's Mary?

玛丽。

Mary.

新约中有很多个玛丽。

So there are a number of Marys in the New Testament.

这位是抹大拉的玛丽。

This was Mary Magdalene.

好的。

Okay.

是的。

Yeah.

她是一位亲密的追随者。

Who who was, like, a a close associate.

好的。

Okay.

像朋友一样？

Like a friend?

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

所以是朋友。

So a friend.

然后是只有她声称看见了他吗？还是有一群人？

And then was there is it just her that says she saw him in There was a group of them.

一群人？

A group of them?

是的。

Yeah.

那些女性。

Of the women.

好的。

Okay.

他们看到他时是分开的。

And they were separate when they saw him.

他们不是在一起，他们是各自行动的。

They weren't they were on their own.

他们是在一起的。

They were together.

但至少《约翰福音》只提到了玛丽。

So one of the Gospels only mentions Mary, at least the Gospel of John.

但正如我之前所说，这暗示还有其他人，因为她说了‘我们不知道把他的身体放在哪了’。

But like I said before, it implies that there are more because she says, we don't know where they put the body.

好的。

Okay.

所以，虽然这个记载只提到她一个人的叙述，但暗示了还有其他人，而其他福音书则提到了更多去墓地的女性。

So, though that account only has her recounting, it implies that there are others, and then the other Gospels have more women that are going to the tomb.

从百分比来看，你对他复活并且是他自己所说的人有多大把握？

As a percentage, what degree of certainty do you have that he was resurrected and that he was who he said he was?

因为我同意你的观点，这个人物确实存在。

Because I agree with you that this character clearly existed.

比如，耶稣确实存在。

Like, Jesus clearly existed.

我个人相信他确实被杀了，嗯。

I personally believe that he was he was killed Mhmm.

很可能是在十字架上。

Probably on a cross.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但到了复活这一点，你就必须相信某种超自然的事情。

But then you get to this point of resurrection, which you have to then believe in something supernatural.

是的。

Yeah.

那么，你会给它赋予多大的概率？

So what's the probability you'd assign to it?

比如，是可能、不太可能，还是非常可能？

Like if it was likely, unlikely, very likely?

它们都是可能的。

They're all likely.

因为我认为福音书作者们是在传达真相。

Because I think that what the Gospel authors are doing is communicating truth.

我最终找不到太多理由说明他们为何要写下这些内容，除非他们真的在 recount 一件发生过的事。

And I don't ultimately see an overabundance of reason why they would write what they wrote other than actually recounting a story of what took place.

我是在英国普利茅斯长大的。

I grew up in a place called Plymouth in The UK.

我出生在非洲。

Was born in Africa.

在我家附近的公园里，墙上有一张关于白女士的大海报。

And in my local park, there was this big poster on the wall about the white lady.

我会把它放到屏幕上。

I'll put it up on the screen.

这是我们城市里的一个大传说。

It's like a big legend in our city.

就是这个公园，大家都说看到过一个被杀的白衣女人在公园里出没。

It's this park, and everybody says that they see this white lady in the park that was killed.

实际上，那里有一块大告示牌介绍她的生平。

And, actually, there's a big board explaining her life.

但这些都只是人们声称自己见过她的说法。

But it's all just accounts of people that say they've seen her.

是的。

Mhmm.

你像苏格兰的尼斯湖水怪，已经有1500次目击报告说在河里看到这个巨大的怪物。

You have things like the Loch Ness Monster in Scotland as well, where there's been 1,500 sightings of this big monster in the river.

甚至到最近的2025年，还出现了一波在海湾里目击被称为‘黑雾’的尼斯湖水怪的热潮。

And even up until recent times, 2025, there was a surge of sightings of the Loch Ness monster called the Black Mass in in in in the bay.

这件事始于五月。

And that started in May.

所以，当我想到人类声称自己看到了某些东西时，我一直有些困惑：直到今天，我们仍然不断有UFO、尼斯湖水怪和公园里白裙女子的目击报告，这些都成了传说。

So one of the things that I've always sort of struggled with when I think about humans saying they saw something is we still today have sightings of UFOs and Loch Ness monsters and white ladies in parks that become legend.

事实上，关于尼斯湖水怪，有趣的是，直到今天，人们仍不断声称在河里看到这个怪物。

And actually, with the Loch Ness monster, it's pretty interesting that even today, there are sightings all the time of this monster that lives in the river.

我想，你和我都同意，河里根本不存在什么怪物。

And I think maybe me and you both agree that there's no monster in the river.

但一定有什么原因在发生。

But there's something going on.

人类天性中似乎有一种倾向，容易参与超自然现象的目击。

There's something in human nature where we do have, like, a proclivity to engage in supernatural sightings.

而一旦我们听别人说过一次，就会强化自己也见过的信念。

And then once we've heard it once, we then reinforce that we've seen it too.

甚至在我还是个年轻人的时候，我的确相信，有个女人会站在我家楼梯平台上，把我惊醒，然后我会跑下去告诉父母，那个女人又站在平台上了。

And even as, a young man, I mean, maybe you believe this, but, like, I believe that there was a woman that would stand on the landing of my home, and it would, like, wake me up, and I would run and and tell my parents that the lady stood on the landing again.

有这么多人在看，我觉得当时确实有一位女士。

With people watching this, I think there was actually a lady.

也许真的有那么一位。

There probably maybe there was.

但我的意思是，当人类明显有能力在某些情况下编造不存在的事情时，我们该如何相信他们对这些事的描述呢？

But I you know what I'm getting at is, like, how do how can we trust human accounts of these things when clearly humans have an ability to make make things up that aren't in some situations?

当然。

Sure.

回答这个问题的一部分证据是，史蒂文，你和我至今仍在谈论它，距今将近两千年了。

Part of the answer to the question is one of the evidences for Jesus' resurrection is the fact that you and I, Steven, are still talking about it almost two thousand years later.

我的朋友曾经对我说过，我之前跟你提过我的基督教朋友。

My friend said this to me, and I was telling you before about my Christian friend.

他说：为什么我们还在谈论这件事？

He was like, why are we still talking about it?

嗯，我们无法证明它。

Well, I we can't prove it.

对。

Right.

它没有发生，所以我们永远都会谈论它。

It wasn't it didn't happen, so we're always gonna talk about it.

除非发生什么，否则我们永远不会知道。

There's there's never gonna be I mean, unless something happens.

对。

Right.

不同之处在于，古代世界还出现过其他弥赛亚运动。

The difference is that there are these other Messianic movements that happened in the ancient world.

比如西门·巴尔吉拉。

And so, like, Simon Baragiura.

我们不把西门·巴尔吉拉当作弥赛亚人物来讨论，是因为他死了，他的运动也随之消亡。

The reason why we're not talking about Simon Baragiura as a Messianic figure is because he died and his movement died with him.

他的门徒也没有冒着生命危险去传扬他持续的教导。

And his disciples didn't go out and then proclaim his continued message until like to their own detriment.

所以我会说几点。

So I would say a few things.

我会说，骗子很难成为殉道者，因为你愿意为相信是真实的事情而死，但为你明知是假的事情而死的可能性要小得多。

I would say liars make poor martyrs in that you will die for something you believe is true, but the chances of you dying for something you know is not true are less likely.

所以，如果我们谈论的是门徒，尤其是当他们因这一特定宣告而被自己的社群——包括异教徒社群和犹太社群——排斥时。

So, if we're talking about the disciples, and especially if what they're getting for this particular proclamation is they're being ostracized from their own communities, pagan Gentile communities and the Jewish communities.

因为请记住，当时两边都存在迫害，因为继续宣称耶稣是弥赛亚，而且更进一步说他就是上帝本身，在早期的耶稣社群中并不受欢迎。

Because remember, there was persecution on both sides, because it was at a certain point in time continuing to say that Jesus was the Messiah, and on top of that, that he was God himself, was not very popular within the early Jesus communities.

人们通常撒谎，这一点本身就很有复杂性。

There's a complexity to the fact that people usually lie.

你看看那些邪教领袖。

You look at cultic figures.

对吧？

Right?

邪教领袖通常是为了名声、金钱、性或影响力而行事。

Cult leaders usually do things for prominence or money or sex or influence.

早期门徒的有趣之处在于，他们什么都没得到。

The interesting thing about the early disciples is they get none of that.

事实上，他们几乎得到了完全相反的结果，因为耶稣说你们将遭受迫害。

In fact, they almost get the complete opposite of that, in that Jesus says, you're going to be persecuted.

你们将被带到法庭前，接受审问。

You're going to be put in front of tribunals, and you're going to be interrogated.

而事实正是如此。

And that's exactly what happens.

他们知道这存在危险，因为在《使徒行传》——即福音书之后的那本书——中，记载了第一位殉道者司提反的事迹。

And they know that there is a danger to this, because we have in the Book of Acts, which is the book after the Gospels, we have a recounting of the first martyr, of Stephen.

我想到了像马丁·路德·金或甘地这样的人，他们似乎是历史上那些无私的领袖，据我所知，他们清楚自己终将死去。

I think of, like, someone like Martin Luther King or Gandhi as being, you know, leaders from history that appeared to be, from what I've understood, very selfless and actually realized that they were all gonna die.

我永远忘不了马丁·路德·金那场演讲，他说：‘我已登上山巅。’

I'll never forget the speech actually where Martin Luther King says, I've been to the mountaintop.

他是个非常虔诚的基督徒，说：‘我已登上山巅。’

He was a very religious man, very Christian man, and says, I've been to the mountaintop.

你们能理解，但我跟不上你们的想法。

You guys get there, but I don't get there with you.

对。

Right.

根据我所掌握的信息，他随后很快就去世了。

And then from the information I had, he died very, very shortly thereafter.

当他说到‘我跟不上你们的想法’时，他的表情非常情绪化。

And as he's saying, I don't get there with you, he's he's emotional in his face.

你看到他哭了。

You see him crying.

这段视频通过……非常有说服力地展现了基督教的

The video is was very persuasive of the Christianity, by the

方式。

way.

嗯。

Mhmm.

然后他被从舞台上拉下来，之后就被枪杀了。

And then he's pulled off stage, and then he shot thereafter.

感觉像是一个知道自己活不了多久，却仍愿意将信仰置于自己生命之上的男人。

Feels like a man that knew he wasn't gonna live much longer, but was willing to put his cause ahead of his own mortality.

我想耶稣当时也是这样做的。

And I guess Jesus was doing the same.

从门徒的角度来看，如果他们知道这并不真实，知道这中间存在神话式的扭曲或夸大，那么在经历迫害、目睹朋友在这样的环境中死去之后，他们为什么还要继续坚持呢？

In a certain regard, in terms of the disciples, though, I think like if they know this isn't true, if they know that there's this kind of, this has been mythological drift, if things have been exaggerated, why then, especially experiencing that persecution, seeing their friends die in that kind of setting, do they continue to go on and do it?

我认为他们确实相信这是真的。

I think they definitely believed it was true.

是的。

Yes.

我认为至少，不管发生了什么，看看这些世俗历史学家，他们研究数据后会说，不管怎样，门徒们相信某些事情发生了。

I think at minimum, whatever's going on, theylike, you look at some of these, secular historians and they look at the data and they say, whatever's going on, the disciples believe something happened.

对，我同意。

Yeah, agree.

他们看到了某些东西。

That they saw something.

当然。

Of course.

因此，我只是觉得，关于这些事情实际发生的其他解释，在解释相关数据方面是不够充分的。

And so theI just think that the explanations of the alternatives of that actually happening are insufficient insofar as how they actually explain the data.

你有任何怀疑吗？

Do you have any doubt?

哦，当然。

Oh, of course.

好的。

Okay.

所以你至少还有1%的怀疑吗？

So you have at least even 1% doubt?

哦， definitely。

Oh, definitely.

我认为，尤其是在那些比历史更关乎存在本质的时刻，当人们经历挣扎、痛苦和苦难时，我看着这个世界，看着它如此混乱，看着年幼的孩子夭折，看着人们遭受虐待，所有这些事情。

And I think especially when there are times of things that are far more existential than historical, when times of like struggle and pain and suffering, and I look at the world and I look at how messy it is, children who die young, people who are abused, all of these things.

有时我会想，怎么可能有一个慈爱的上帝呢？

There are moments where I think, how could there be a good God?

我的意思是，我并非对怀疑无动于衷。

I mean, I'm not immune to doubt.

我发现《圣经》的一个有趣之处在于，它非常开放地允许我们带着怀疑来到圣经中的上帝面前。

And the interesting thing that I find about the Bible is that the Bible is very open to the God of the Bible being open to us coming to him with our doubts.

现在，《诗篇》这本书的三分之一，正好位于《圣经》中部，这种诗歌体裁有时被称为哀歌或抱怨诗篇。

Now, one third of the book of Psalms, which is like right in the middle of the Bible, this kind of poetic literature, if you want to call it that, are sometimes referred to as the lament or the complaint Psalms.

比如《诗篇》22篇：我的神，我的神，为什么离弃我？

It's things like Psalm 22: My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

你为何离我如此遥远？

Why are you so far from me?

我白天呼求，却得不到回应。

I cry out by day and I hear no answer.

我觉得《圣经》有趣的地方在于它坦率地承认：我们会挣扎。

And I think what's interesting that I find with the Bible is its transparency in saying, we're going to struggle.

你知道，《约翰福音》里有一个非常精彩的故事。

You know, there's this really great story in the Gospel of John.

在《福音书》的几个场合中，施洗约翰——耶稣的表亲和挚友——因公开反对希律而被关进监狱。

Well, this is in a couple of the instances of the Gospels where John the Baptist, who's like Jesus' cousin and good friend, he's been in prison because he's been speaking out against Herod.

他因为在政治上太过直言不讳。

He's been being a little bit too verbal politically.

所以他被逮捕并关进了监狱。

And so he gets taken and he's in prison.

尽管他曾为耶稣施洗，并说：看哪，神的羔羊，除去世人罪孽的。

And though he's the one that baptized Jesus and said, you know, behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

但当他身陷牢狱时，他产生了怀疑。

When he's in prison, he doubts.

于是他派门徒去问耶稣：你就是那弥赛亚吗？

And he sends his disciples over to Jesus to ask, are you the Messiah?

你就是我们所等候的那一位吗？

Are you the one we're waiting for?

还是我们应当等候另一位？

Or should we be waiting for another?

在这次互动中，耶稣实际上说，施洗约翰是所有妇人所生的人中最伟大的，这基本上就是指所有人，对吧？

Now, in that interaction, Jesus actually says, John the Baptist is the greatest of all men born of women, which is basically everybody, right?

然而就在同一情境下，施洗约翰却怀疑耶稣是否真是他所宣称的那一位，因为他正经历着痛苦与苦难。

And yet in that very same setting, John the Baptist is doubting that Jesus is who he says he is, because he's experiencing pain and suffering.

关于你看到世界上发生可怕的事件后产生怀疑这一点，我认为对我而言，这正是我18岁时加入新无神论运动时最具说服力的论点之一，当时理查德·道金斯曾说过，如果上帝是全然慈爱的，嗯。

On that point of you seeing, you know, horrific things happening in the world and then having doubts, I think for me, that was one of the persuasive arguments of the, like, New Atheist movement that I became a part of when I was, like, 18 years old, which was I think Richard Dawkins had said about, you know, if God is all loving Mhmm.

那为什么他会允许非洲一个两岁的孩子被寄生虫从内部吃掉眼球呢？

Then why would he let a two year old kid in Africa have their eyeball eaten out from the inside by a parasite?

是的。

Yeah.

如果我能干预这种情况，因为人们声称上帝是全能的、全知的、无所不在的。

Like, if if if I could intervene with that, because, know, the assertion is that God is omnipotent or powerful and omniscient or present.

是的。

Yeah.

如果我作为人类能够干预这种情况，我会阻止它。

If I could intervene with that as a human, I would stop that.

所以，如果上帝是全能的、全知的、无所不在的，知道一切并存在于每个地方，那他为什么不去干预那个婴儿的眼球被寄生虫从内部吃掉呢？

And so if God is omnipower and omnipotent, all powerful and omnipresent, knows everything and is everywhere, then why wouldn't he intervene with the baby having its eyeball eaten out from the inside?

是的。

Yeah.

这是个很好的观点。

It's a good point.

我认为，在无神论者一方，对基督教最具冲击力的异议就是恶的问题，而且一直如此，因为这更多是一个情感和存在层面的问题，而非纯粹的智力问题。

And I think if there is an objection that is truly impactful on Christianity in the atheist corner, it is the problem of evil, and always has been, because it's far more of an emotional and existential question than it is an intellectual question.

现在，这个问题的一部分在于，如果我们谈论的是大写的‘恶’，那就意味着存在一个大写的‘善’。

Now, part of the problem with it is that if we're talking about evil with a capital E, we're implying that there's a good with a capital G.

因此，当我们说恶存在，或暗示善存在时，我们确实会遇到一个问题。

And so I think we do run into an issue when saying that evil exists or implying that good exists.

如果我们暗示善是存在的，或者暗示有一条道德法则需要遵守，以区分善与恶。

And if we're implying that good exists or implying that there's a moral law to adhere to, to call the good, good and the evil, evil.

如果存在道德法则，那么就必然有一位道德法则的制定者。

And if there's a moral law, then there has to be a moral law giver.

而这就引出了问题：这是主观的，还是客观的？

And that's where we come into issues with, is this subjective or is this objective?

我认为无神论者会认为，这种道德上的善源于有助于我生存的特性。

I think the atheist movement would argue that that moral good is virtue of what helps me to survive.

比如，看到一个小孩遭受如此痛苦，如果我对这一切毫无感觉，那我就不会有生存所需的神经机制，因为我缺乏保护受苦孩子的倾向。

So like watching a small child suffer in such a way, if I didn't feel anything bad about that, then I wouldn't have the wiring for survival because I wouldn't have the proclivity to defend a suffering child.

如果我没有这种倾向，我就可能无法繁衍后代，无法将基因传递下去，最终被自然选择淘汰。

If I don't have that, then I probably don't reproduce and I don't pass on my genes and then I'm selected out of existence.

因此，当我看到孩子受苦时所感受到的痛苦，是我进化机制的一种功能，它使我更有可能生存下来。

So that pain I feel when I see a child suffering is a function of my evolutionary mechanics that make me more likely to survive.

而那些没有这种感受的人，早已无法生存，也不会存在于今天。

And anyone that didn't have that wouldn't have survived and wouldn't be here now.

因此，进化就是答案。

So evolution, therefore, is the answer.

我认为在某些情况下这或许可以成立。

I think that might suffice in certain instances.

然而，它仍然在生物学解释中偷偷引入了道德范畴。

However, it's still sort of smuggling in moral categories into a biological explanation.

比如，读一读理查德·道金斯的《出伊甸园之河》，他在其中有一段谈到，我们不应期待看到任何规律或道理、善或恶，你知道，DNA既不知情也不关心，DNA只是我们随其音乐起舞而已。

Part of, I mean, read Richard Dawkins, read River Out of Eden, and he has that section where he talks about, you know, we shouldn't expect to see any rhyme or reason, good or bad, you know, DNA neither knows nor cares, DNA just isn't we dance to its music.

在那本书中，至少在道金斯写作那段时期，他本人也表达了这样一个观点：归根结底，根本不存在所谓的善恶行为。

And there's an aspect of Dawkins himself in that volume, at least at that time when he wrote it, articulating that at the end of it all, there is no such thing as action.

你不能称那个寄生在男孩眼睛里的寄生虫为邪恶。

You can't call that parasite in that boy's eye evil.

你只能说，我不喜欢它。

You can say, I don't like it.

但把‘邪恶’这种道德范畴引入进来，实际上是在引入一种观念。

But to import this moral category of evil is actually to import an idea.

这正是达金斯受到像约翰·格雷这样的哲学家批评的原因，格雷曾在伦敦政治经济学院任教。

And this is actually what Dawkins was criticized by, by individuals like John Gray, the philosopher who taught at the London School of Economics.

他说，你确实是一位出色的生物学家，但你却想赋予人类某种内在价值。

And he says, you know, you're a really great biologist, but then you want to impart actual intrinsic value to people.

如果你从简单的自私DNA视角来看，你实际上无法赋予这种价值，因为你的DNA、你的自私DNA存在的目的只是延续它自身的自私性。

And if you're looking at a simple selfish DNA perspective, you can't actually ascribe that because your DNA, your selfish DNA exists to carry on its selfish DNA.

因此，从某种意义上说，那个孩子与你并无关联。

And so in one sense, that child has no bearing on you.

不过，这可能涉及一种保护机制，你会想要弄清楚为什么孩子会感染寄生虫。

Now it might have like a protective mechanism where you want to figure out why the child got the parasite.

于是你试图避免类似情况，以免自己也感染寄生虫。

And so you try to avoid that in order to not get the parasite yourself.

但科学无法真正解释在这种情况下所涉及的道德含义。

But science can't actually give you an explanation for what the moral implications are in that instance.

让我举个例子。

Let me give you an example.

我想我理解了这一点。

I think I understand the point there.

对。

Yes.

这本质上是在说，为什么那个孩子对我来说重要？

It's essentially asserting that like, why does that child matter to me?

因为我的DNA应该只是照顾好自己。

Because my DNA should just be trying to take care of itself.

我想在生物学上，我并不总是能确定谁是我的孩子。

I guess in biology, there's I don't always know who my child is.

但同时，从进化角度来看，如果我们生活在社群和部落中，我们会照顾周围所有的孩子。

But also, from an evolution perspective, if we were raised in communities and tribes, we took care of all of the children in the surroundings.

我会照顾我兄弟的孩子，而他也会照顾我的孩子，因此如此。

I would take care of my brother's children, and he would take care of mine, therefore.

好。

Yep.

是的。

Yeah.

而且同样，这又回到了生存的问题，也就是说，如果我照顾我的社区，我更有可能生存下来。

And again, that goes back to the point of survival, which means that I'm more likely to survive if I take care of my community.

有点吧。

Sort of.

但你读过《物种起源》这样的书吧。

You read something like, The Origin of Species though.

比如，达尔文本人在阐述适者生存时，也有一种观点认为，你不应该照顾那些人，因为他们实际上拉低了基因库的水平。

Like, like, Darwin himself, when he's articulating the survival of the fittest, there is an aspect of, you shouldn't take care of those people because they're actually bringing the genetic gene pool down.

因此，我们看到，甚至在优生学运动中，也大量引用了达尔文等人的观点，以证明：为了延续你自私的基因，照顾边缘群体、社会弱势群体和所谓‘劣等者’，在进化上并不占优势。

So we see, even in like the eugenics movement, pulling a lot from individuals like Darwin, in order to validate the fact that in order to carry on your selfish DNA, this idea of taking care of the marginalized and those with on the fringes of society and those who are the lesser thans is not evolutionary advantageous.

因为适者生存意味着最强者才该生存。

Because survival of the fittest implies that the fittest should survive.

而这些显然不是最强者。

And these are obviously not the fittest.

这实际上是一种犹太-基督教伦理观，认为每个人都有平等的价值，我们应该关心他人，因为他们具有内在价值，而非外在价值，这使我们能够将关心那些与我及我的群体没有直接关联的人的理念引入其中。

It's actually a Judeo Christian ethic in the understanding of everybody having equal value, that we should be taking care of people because they have intrinsic value, not extrinsic value, that allows us to then even import an idea of taking care of those who are not necessarily specifically related to me and mine.

这又回到了一个问题：我们究竟在哪里为这种客观性奠定基础？

And it comes back to, okay, where are we grounding this objectivity in?

因为历史上确实有一些社会试图以‘强权即公理’的方式实现这一点。

Because there have been societies that have attempted to do it in like a might is right aspect.

你把我们所认为的正确性，建立在这样一个社会的基础上：即对一个特定群体中最多数个体更有利的就是正确的。

And you ground the objectivity of what we say is right in a society that says, this is better for the most amount of individuals within a particular community.

我想到了尤瓦尔·诺亚。

I think about, Yuval Noah.

是的。

Yeah.

哈拉里。

Harari.

哈拉里。

Harari.

在他的《人类简史》一书中，他提到，我们物种区别于其他物种的真正特征是我们合作的能力，本质上就是互相帮助。

In his book Sapiens, where he says that the real defining trait of our species versus other species was our ability to collaborate and basically scratch each other's backs.

这意味着我们在进化上具有优势，因为如果我们能大规模协作，相信故事、金钱、监狱、政府等概念，就能团结起来对抗狮子，或对抗大象，等等。

And that that meant that we had, evolutionary advantages because if we could work together in a big group and we could believe in stories and we believe in money and prison and governments, etcetera, we could band together and take on the lion or band together and take on the elephant or whatever.

而这正是你之所以需要照顾我，某种程度上源于此。

And it's actually that in part that you have, like, I need to take care of you.

你需要照顾我，我们会互相回报这种利他行为，从而提高我们的生存几率。

You need to take care of me, and we're gonna reciprocate that altruism, and increase our survival chances.

所以，这或许能解释我为什么关心那个孩子，因为那些不具备这种协作能力的物种，根本无法团结起来对抗大象。

So, again, that might explain why I I care about that kid, because the species that didn't, they would never have been able to band together and take on the elephant.

是的。

Yes.

我认为这很大程度上是因为我们现代人的视角，生活在一个道德观念已经奠定基础的社会里，对吧？

I think it's largely our modern perspective living in a society where we are starting on second base already with our moral perspectives, right?

我们继承了所有这些道德范畴，这源于我们的犹太-基督教伦理。

We have inherited all of these moral categories because of our Judeo Christian ethic.

如果你看看在此之前几乎所有的社会，或者甚至东方社会，这并不是理所当然的，对吧？

If you look at basically every society prior to this, or even societies in the East, that's not a given, right?

这并不是

That's not

一个

an

假设，尤其是在那些具有业力循环观念的社会中，比如佛教或印度教。

assumption, especially in societies that have, say, understandings of karmic cycles, whether that's in like Buddhism or Hinduism.

利他的概念实际上可以被归类为一种恶。

The idea of altruism is actually can be categorized as an evil.

因为在生死轮回的循环中，你今生的境遇是由于前世的过错造成的。

Because in the cycle of samsara of birth, life, death, and rebirth, you are actually the, your lot in this life is due to your wrongdoing in the last life.

所以，帮助这样的人，实际上是在阻碍他们获得更好的转世，因此在这样的东方社会中，利他主义这样的观念并不存在。

So in helping someone like that, you are actually inhibiting them from being reincarnated better So on the other an idea like altruism doesn't exist within that Eastern society.

如果你看看古代世界，我们就拿巴比伦人来说吧。

And if you look in the ancient world, let's pick on the Babylonians.

巴比伦人如果读了道金斯的《伊甸园之河》，基本上会说，没错，就是这样。

The Babylonians, if they were to read Dawkins' River out of Eden, would basically say, yeah, exactly.

对吧？

Right?

所以他们有一个创世故事。

So they have this creation story.

它叫做《埃努玛·埃利什》。

It's called the Enuma Elish.

这是一个众神之间的大规模战斗。

And it's this big battle of the gods.

这是一个起源故事，试图解释为什么一切都会存在。

And it's an origin story, an attempt to explain why everything is here.

但它的结论基本上是：你是一场大规模战斗和一个错误的产物，对吧？

But the conclusion of it is basically you are a product of a big battle and a mistake, right?

其中一个神输了，而你，你周围的一切，大地、天空，都只是那些失败神祇的残骸。

The one god loses and you, everything around you, the earth, the sky, it's just the remains of the gods that lost.

所以，意义、价值、目的？

So meaning, value, purpose?

其实并没有，从根本上说。

Not really, ultimately.

你只是时间、物质和偶然性的产物。

You're just the product of time plus matter plus chance as well.

这只不过被赋予了一种宗教视角。

It's just framed within a religious perspective.

而道金斯则将其置于自然唯物主义的视角中。

Whereas Dawkins frames it in a natural materialistic perspective.

那么，我们从哪里获得这些范畴，来主张我们应该关心自己特定社群之外的他人呢？

So where do we get the categories to even say that we should be taking care of people in communities outside of our specific community?

因为在一些文化中，他们有‘爱邻如己’的伦理，而在其他文化中，却是‘吞食邻人’。

Because in some cultures, they have the ethic of love thy neighbor, but in others, it's eat thy neighbor.

所以问题来了，你希望选择哪个社会？

And so the question is, which society do you want to pick?

你说这些源自犹太-基督教价值观？

And you're saying that that came from Judeo Christian values?

是的。

Yes.

我同意。

I would agree.

是的，我同意这一点。

Yeah, I would agree that.

我想弄清楚，我们内心对善恶的感知是与生俱来的，来自上帝，还是我们只是接受了某种文化，而这种文化的根基正是这些基督教价值观。

I think I'm trying to understand if it's innate in us from a god, what's good and evil, or whether it's, you know, we we all subscribe to a culture that was, you know, the foundation of that was these Christian values.

那么，到底是哪一种呢？

And, yeah, which one is it?

是的，我生来就具有善恶观，还是在两千或三千年前耶稣降临、我们有了这些经书之后，才受到影响？

Yeah, well Was I born with a good and evil or was two thousand or three thousand years ago when Jesus came to be and we had these books, did Yeah.

这种影响只是

That just influence

我认为，我们的良知中有一部分是被铭刻在我们身上的，我们某种程度上都能理解伦理。

Well, I think ultimately there's an aspect of our conscience that's imprinted on us that we, we understand ethics to some degree or another.

但要真正找到这种伦理的客观性，必须依靠圣经中特定的启示。

But the framework to actually find the objectivity of that ethic is found in the revelation of specific revelation in Scripture.

你相信进化论吗？

Do you believe in evolution?

我不信。

I don't.

你不认为它是真的吗？

You don't believe it's true?

不信。

No.

我接受这样一个事实：我相信相信进化论并不会以任何方式削弱基督教。

I am open to the fact that I don't think that a belief in evolution undermines Christianity in any way.

不过，我要先说明，我不是科学家。

However, I'm prefacing this by saying I'm not a scientist.

我支持智能设计论。

I'm an advocate for intelligent design.

我基本上会把进化生物学中那些复杂的讨论留给比我更专业的专家，比如斯蒂芬·迈耶、乔纳森·麦克拉奇、约翰·图尔斯和道格拉斯·艾克斯这些人，他们深入研究过这个领域。

And I would basically punt the complex conversations of evolutionary biology to individuals who are far more studied than me, like Stephen Meyer and Jonathan McClatchy and John Tours and Douglas Axe and those individuals who have studied it.

但与此同时，这也取决于你所说的‘进化’具体指的是什么，对吧？

At the exact same time though, it also depends on what you mean by evolution, Right?

比如，适应性，从基因层面来说，确实是存在的。

So, like, adaptation, genetically, is a thing.

我想是的，所以我想问的是，你相信我们是从非常简单的生物进化成今天这样的人类的吗？

I guess so I'm saying, do you believe that we evolved from very simple organisms to become the human that you see today?

不相信。

No.

支持这个观点的理由是，你知道，我和黑猩猩的DNA有98%是相同的。

And the argument for that would be, you know, I share 98% of the same DNA as like a chimpanzee.

没错。

Sure.

我们有这些化石记录，似乎显示了随着时间的推移而发生的演变。

And we have these fossil records which seem to show a progression over time.

是的。

Yeah.

你不认为这是真的吗？

You don't believe that's true?

不，我不这么认为。

No, I don't.

但与此同时，我认为在基督教信仰中，有一些聪明的人接受并完全能理解有神论进化模型。

But at the exact same time, I think, you know, there are individuals within the Christian faith, intelligent people, who do and have no problem with understanding of a theistic evolutionary model.

然而，我认为在适者生存的努力中，你仍然在回答‘最适者是如何出现的’这个问题时，已经起步了几英里远。

However, I think in the effort of survival of the fittest, I still think that you're starting a few miles down the road in answering the question of the arrival of the fittest.

心智如何从无心智的物质中产生？

How do minds come from mindless matter?

一切如何从虚无中产生？

How does everything come from nothing?

我们该如何回答这些问题？

How do we answer those questions?

我认为这就是为什么你可以将进化模型用作解释上帝如何实际创造生物机制的依据，对吧？

And I think that's why you can use the evolutionary model as an explanation of how God has actually created, right, the biology of the situation.

但我认为更大的问题是宇宙学问题。

But I think the bigger question is the cosmological questions.

这一切是如何开始的？

How did this all get going?

你知道，大爆炸。

You know, the big bang.

那个大爆炸的引爆者是什么？

What was the big banger?

那个最初的球体是如何开始滚动的？

How did that first ball get rolling?

然后，为什么你和我，史蒂文，能够坐在这里，就像我之前说的，用我脑子里这三磅灰质去思考这些极其复杂的问题？

And then why can you and I, Steven, sit here and, like I said before, have the three pounds of gray matter in my head kind of, ruminate over these very complex questions?

你知道，我觉得是在

You know, I I think it was on the

加拉帕戈斯群岛。

Galapagos Islands.

我可能会念错，但我一定会尽力。

I'm probably gonna butcher this, but I'll I'll do my very best.

他们，你知道，水手们去了一个岛。

That they you know, the the sailors went to an island.

他们在那里留下了一只鸟。

They left a bird there.

他们五十年后回来了。

They came back fifty years later.

那只鸟的喙变得非常非常长，因为岛上它吃的食物都在壳里。

The the bird's beak had grown to be very, very long because the prey on that island that it was eating were in in whole.

所以它们需要更长的喙。

So they needed longer beaks.

所以这告诉我们，如果你把一种动物放在某个环境中，它就会适应，并且会淘汰短喙的鸟，留下长喙的鸟。

So it kinda shows us that if you leave an animal in an environment, it will adapt and it's you know, it will select out the short beak birds for the long beak birds.

就在这么短的时间内，你就能看到它似乎正在变成一种不同的动物。

And just in that short period of time, you can see that it's like, you know, it's becoming a different type of animal.

如果你将这个过程延伸到极其漫长的时间——几乎难以想象的数亿年——你就能理解为什么我和黑猩猩在外貌上有这么多相似之处。

And if you extrapolate that out over a long, long period of time, almost an inconceivable amount of time, you know, maybe hundreds of millions of years, one can understand why, like, me and a chimpanzee, there are similarities in how we look.

而且我的DNA和黑猩猩的DNA有99%相似，实际上是98%的相似度。

And there are 99% similar like, 98% similarities in my DNA and a chimp chimpanzees DNA.

因此有人会认为，我们和黑猩猩拥有共同的祖先。

So one would argue that we are we have a common ancestor.

是的。

Yeah.

这对我来说是非常有说服力的证据。

It's like very compelling evidence to me.

当然。

Sure.

我的意思是，这种转变是从类黑猩猩的形态开始的，对吧？

I mean, it's the transitions going from as the chimpanzee type thing, right?

因为我们显然不是在说我们曾经是今天这种意义上的黑猩猩。

Because we're obviously not arguing that we were a chimpanzee as a chimpanzee exists today.

但那个古人类，不管它到底是什么，从猴子到人类之间的过渡化石解释到底是什么？

But that, yeah, that hominid, whatever that hominid was, what is the transitionary fossil explanation, whatever that goes from the monkey to the human being?

在意识问题上，我认为我们还没有答案。

And I don't really think we have an answer for that in terms of consciousness questions.

是什么让我们具备推理、思考和反思的能力，与其他动物物种截然不同？

Like what makes our ability to reason and think and contemplate different than all of the other species in the animal kingdom?

如果我们主张一切皆源自单细胞生物，那我们该如何解释这个过程呢？

And how do we go if we're arguing that, you know, everything comes from single celled organisms?

也许你可以提出一个所谓的‘时间空隙’解释。

I guess you could have a, if we want to call it, a time of the gaps explanation.

你知道，只要加上数百万年，这个问题就解决了。

You know, just add lots of millions of years and it solves this issue.

我不确定自己是否完全满意这个答案。

I don't know if I am completely satisfied with that answer.

因为显然存在适应性。

Ifbecause obviously there's adaptation.

但如果你看看渡渡鸟的例子或者达尔文雀，对吧，它们的喙不同，但终究还是有喙的鸟。

But, you know, if you're looking at whether there's the dodo bird example or Darwin's finches, right, where the beaks are different, you're still getting beaked birds.

而且我们从未见过一个物种完全转变为另一个完全不同的物种。

And we've never seen one species turn into a completely different species.

我用来填补这个空白的是，这只是一个时间问题。

The thing that I filled the gap with is that it's just a matter of time.

以鸟类为例，可能需要五十年左右，或者几十年。

So with the birds example, it's for like fifty years or something, decades.

但当我们想到地球可能有四五十亿年的历史时，我认为在如此漫长的时间里，任何事情都可能发生。

But when we think about Earth potentially being like four, five billion years old, I think it's almost inconceivable what can happen over such a long period of time.

比如，如果我和你去地球的不同地方生活，身处两个完全不同的环境中，然后五亿年后再回来，那时没有医学，也没有任何帮助我们生存的因素，我们可能会分化，走上完全不同的演化方向。

Like it's conceivable that if me and you went to different parts of planet Earth and lived in two completely different environments, and then we came back five billion years later, and there was no medicine and no factors helping us to survive that, you know, we would have branched, gone in two different directions completely.

你的祖先生活在丛林里时，可能有九英尺高。

And you, you know, your ancestors who were living in the jungle might be nine foot.

而实际上，在我住的洞穴里，生存下来的关键是只有两英尺高。

And actually what was useful for survival where I lived in some cave was being two foot tall.

对。

Right.

然后我们就无法互相繁殖了，这让我们现在成了不同的物种。

And then we wouldn't be able to reproduce, which kind of makes us different species now.

我的意思是，对我来说，这听起来是可能的。

Like, that's I mean, that sounds conceivable for me.

在四十五亿年的时间里，似乎完全有可能——我们都认同适应性变化，嗯。

Over four like, four point five billion years, seems conceivable that I'd I'd like, we both agree on adaptation Mhmm.

比如微小的适应性变化。

Like small adaptations.

但如果你把时间尺度拉长，这些微小的适应性变化就会变得巨大。

But then if you expand the time horizon, those small adaptations become massive.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，归根结底，无论你怎么看，把数百万年作为解释似乎有点太方便了。

I mean, ultimately, no matter which way you wanna swing I think the adding millions of years as the explanation is a little bit too convenient.

但我觉得，归根结底，你仍然在观察自然界中的复杂性，这指向了一种令人惊叹的设计。

But I think at the end of the day, you're still looking at the complexity in nature that points to a design of something that is amazing.

那么问题来了，道金斯 famously 说，这不过是设计的错觉，对吧？

And the question of, okay, how do we, Dawkins is, you know, famous for saying that it has the illusion of design to it, right?

实际上并不存在什么设计。

There's not actually a design to it.

这仅仅是设计的错觉。

It's just the illusion of design.

但我觉得，当你回顾达尔文写作的时代，人们认为越小的东西就越简单。

But I think, you know, if we actually look at when Darwin was writing, they thought the smaller you got, the simpler it got.

而我们现在知道，越小的东西，实际上反而越复杂。

And now we know that the smaller you got, in fact, the more complex you get.

意思是，你越深入观察这个设计，比如越深入观察大脑，就会越发现？

As in the more you zoom into the design, like the more you zoom into the brain or?

是的。

Yeah.

从达尔文时代至今，我们对科学的理解呈指数级增长。

Our understanding of science has grown exponentially, from Darwin's day.

达尔文进化论中有一些内容已经发展成了我们现在所说的新达尔文主义进化理论。

And there's an aspect of like Darwinian evolution that is, has moved on into what we would now call like new Darwinian evolutionary theory.

你看看像斯蒂芬·迈耶这样的人，我之前提到过他，他甚至对一些被当作进化论前提的解释提出了质疑。

And you look at individuals, like I mentioned, Stephen Meyer before, and he even has questioned some of these things about the explanations that are working as givens for evolutionary theory.

但我仍然觉得，这并不能帮我们回答：那么，我们为什么会有目的？

I still don't think it gets us back to, okay, then why do we have purpose?

我接触过很多创始人，他们经常问我：为什么我在这个平台上投放的这个广告没有效果？

I've had so many founders speak to me and say, why didn't this particular ad that I ran on this platform work for me?

可能是文案不够好，创意不够强，但通常问题是他们没有进行正确的对话，因为这个广告根本没触达对的人。

Maybe the copy wasn't good, the creative wasn't strong, but usually the problem is they're not having the right conversation because that ad never reached the right person.

在B2B营销中，这正是游戏的核心。

And if you're in B2B marketing, that is much of the game.

而LinkedIn广告正是为你解决这个问题的工具。

And this is where LinkedIn ads solves that problem for you.

它的定向功能极其精准。

Their targeting is ridiculously specific.

你可以根据职位、职级、公司规模、行业，甚至个人技能集进行定向。

You can target by job title, seniority, company size, industry, and even someone's skill set.

他们的网络包含了超过十亿专业人士，其中约一亿三千万是决策者。

And their network includes over a billion professionals, about 130,000,000 of them are decision makers.

因此，当你使用LinkedIn广告时，你的品牌就能精准地呈现在目标人群面前。

So when you use LinkedIn ads, you're putting your brand in front of the right people.

据我经验，LinkedIn广告在所有广告平台中，为B2B带来的广告投入回报率最高。

And LinkedIn ads also drive the highest B2B return on ad spend across all ad networks in my experience.

如果你想尝试，可以前往linkedin.com/diary。

If you want to give them a try, head over to linkedin.com/diary.

当你在第一个LinkedIn广告活动中花费250美元时，我会额外赠送你250美元的额度用于下一次投放。

And when you spend $250 on your first LinkedIn ads campaign, you'll get an extra $250 credit from me for the next one.

访问 linkedin.com/diary 了解更多。

That's linkedin.com/diary.

条款和条件适用。

Terms and conditions apply.

每当我试图改善生活中的某些方面——无论是我的事业、健康还是人际关系——我都发现，最大的转变都来自于获得更充分的信息。

Every time I've tried to improve something in my life, like my businesses, my health, my relationships, I've noticed that the biggest shifts have come from being better informed.

而在健康方面，我们大多数人知道的都极少。

And when it comes to our health, most of us know very, very little.

所以，当我们的团队被邀请与Function Health合作时，我们觉得这非常契合。

So when our team was approached about partnering with Function Health, it felt very much aligned.

他们的团队开发了一种方法，能为你提供全面的健康洞察，通过多种检测揭示你体内正在发生的各种状况。

Their team has developed a way of giving you a full three sixty degree view of your health, many of the things that are going on in your body in the form of different tests.

你只需做一次抽血，就能获得超过160项实验室检测结果，涵盖激素、心脏健康、炎症、压力、毒素等所有关键指标。

You do one blood draw and it gives you access to over 160 lab results, hormones, heart health, inflammation, stress, toxins, the whole picture.