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你凭什么谈租房的事？
How can you talk about renting?
你这纯粹是把钱往水里扔。
You're just throwing money away.
胡说八道。
BS.
我要不要干脆一次性把这些说法全拆穿？
Should I just dismantle these arguments once and for all?
因为房贷背后有一组惊人的数字，大多数人根本不知道。
Because there's some shocking math behind a mortgage, and most people don't know this, though.
咱们来好好说说。
Let's get into it.
理财专家兼企业家拉米特·塞西再次回来，教你如何掌控自己的财务。
Ramit Sethi, the financial expert and entrepreneur is back To teach you how to take control of your money
并直面那些拖累我们的财务问题。
and confront the financial problems that hold us back.
大多数人可以归为我总结的四种金钱类型。
Most people fall into four money types that I've identified.
第一种是回避型，他们特别讨厌谈钱。
Number one is avoiders, and they hate talking about money.
但如果你的伴侣就是不肯谈钱，那可是个严重的警告信号，因为我接触的人里，有一半根本不知道自家的总收入。
But if your partner simply will not talk about money, that's a huge fucking red flag because 50% of the people I talk to do not know their household income.
负债的人里，90%不清楚自己到底欠了多少，而所有信用卡欠债的人，无一例外都存在这个问题，这太惊人了。
90% who are in debt do not know how much debt they're in, and 100% of the people I talk to in credit card debt also have trouble with That is shocking.
接下来是优化型。
Next up, Optimizer.
这种类型能帮你达到很好的财务状态。
They can get you to a very good place.
他们会积极投资。
They'll be investing.
他们喜欢活在表格里，但这种习惯也可能过头。
We love to live in a spreadsheet, but it can be taken too far.
然后是梦想家，他们觉得成功只要一单就够了，结果常常掉进加密货币骗局，全是些忽悠人的东西。
And then The Dreamer, who believes that success is one deal And they tend to fall into crypto coin scams, like all this BS.
最后是爱操心的人。
Finally, worriers.
他们就喜欢操心。
They love to worry.
我们够不够用啊？
Are we gonna have enough?
要是钱花光了怎么办？
What if we run out of money?
他们通常是从父母那儿学会操心的，父母总说钱不是大风刮来的。
Typically, they picked up worrying from their parents who said stuff like money doesn't grow on trees.
问题是，这种心态容易走极端，变得特别抠门，连三块钱的事都纠结半天，比如为买杯咖啡犹豫不决。
And the problem is you could take it a little too far, and they'd become cheaper and become so obsessed with $3 questions, like agonizing over buying a coffee.
但大家都仔细听好，我想说说怎么改变这些类型。
But everybody listen closely because I wanna break down how you can change any of these types.
所以
So
拉米特，大多数夫妻唯一做的投资就是买房。
Ramit, the only investment most couples make is buying a house.
那还有什么别的选择呢？
What is the alternative?
真正的财富其实就藏在这里，而且是免费的。
This is where real wealth is free.
我们来把这件事简化一下，我有四个数字，每个人都该聊聊。
Let's simplify the whole thing, and I have four numbers that everyone should be talking about.
第一个是你的
The first off is your
拉米特，如果有人刚点进这段对话，请你明确告诉我，为什么他们该留下来听我们接下来要讲的内容？毕竟我们要谈的是你书里写的东西。
Ramit, if someone's just clicked on this conversation, please explain to me exactly why they should stay and listen to what we're about to discuss on the basis that we're about to talk about the things you've written in this book.
不管你单身约会、订婚了，还是已经结婚二十五年，钱始终是我们生活中最核心的部分之一。
If you are single and dating, if you are engaged or if you have been married for twenty five years, money is one of the central parts of our lives.
我们大多数人一想到钱，就觉得避之唯恐不及。
And most of us think about money as something to be avoided.
只有当事情搞砸了，才肯提起钱这个话题。
It's something we only talk about when things have gone wrong.
这种活法也太糟糕了。
What a terrible way to live.
但其实还有另一种方式——我们可以把钱当作联结、机会和快乐的源泉。
And there is a different way, which is we can use money as a source of connection, possibility, and joy.
今天我们要聊的，就是这个。
And that is what we're going to talk about today.
前几天我刚和詹姆斯·塞克顿聊过，他是专门处理离婚事务的专家。
I had a conversation a couple of days ago, actually, with James Sexton, who's the divorce expert.
他虽然是离婚律师，但对离婚这件事的了解，没人比得上他。
He's a divorce lawyer by trade but he knows more about divorce than anybody else.
他告诉我，导致人们最终走进他办公室办离婚的，主要有两个原因。
And he said to me there's two things which cause people to end up in his office going through a divorce.
第一是出轨和不忠。
Number one is cheating, infidelity.
第二是伴侣之间关于钱的问题。
And the second thing is money problems in the relationship.
所以我特别觉得，和你聊聊伴侣之间如何处理金钱非常相关，因为很明显，我们大多数人回避谈钱，这很可能会毁掉一段关系，或者让我根本不敢开始一段关系。
So I find it especially sort of pertinent to have this conversation with you about couples relationship with money because clearly one of the things that is most likely to end my relationship or or I guess prevent me getting into one is this financial avoidance that most of us engage in.
你在播客里已经采访了成百上千对伴侣关于金钱的话题。
You've interviewed hundreds and hundreds of couples about money on your podcast.
从这些采访中，你对人们在关系中的金钱观有什么发现？
What have you learned about our relationship with money in relationships from that?
我发现，我聊过的所有人里，有一半根本不知道自己家的总收入。
I've learned that 50% of the people I talk to do not know their household income.
我聊过的负债人群里，90%不知道自己到底欠了多少钱，而所有有信用卡债务的人，也都很难对孩子的请求说不。
90% of the people I talk to who are in debt do not know how much debt they're in, and 100 of the people I talk to in credit card debt also have trouble saying no to their children.
这难道不让人震惊吗？
Isn't that shocking?
这些人里有一半不知道自己赚多少钱，因为我们大多数人就盯着银行账户看看余额，别的就不关心了。
Each of those things, 50% do not know how much income they make because most of us are simply living by looking at our checking account, and that's it.
欠债这部分倒是可以理解。
The debt part kind of makes sense.
谁想知道自己到底欠了多少钱呢？
Why would you want to know how much debt you owe?
你根本不想面对，所以那些催款邮件和账单就干脆装作没看见。
You don't really want to think about it, so you ignore those emails and envelopes.
至于信用卡债务这部分，真的挺有意思的。
And the credit card debt part, that is really interesting.
如果你管不住自己花钱，欠了一堆信用卡债，那同样的道理，你也很难对孩子的请求说不。
The idea that if you can't say no to spending, so you've racked up a bunch of credit card debt, the same principle applies to saying no to kids.
每次发现这些情况，我都觉得特别有意思，但好消息是，这些习惯其实都能改。
For me, when I discover these, I find them absolutely fascinating, but the good news is you can also change these things.
在感情关系里，男女在花钱习惯、隐瞒、回避和争吵方面有什么不同吗？
And what's the difference between men and women in terms of spending habits in a relationship, secrecy, avoidance, arguments?
好，我们先从
Well, let's start with
角色说起。
the roles.
男人总是把自己描述成供养者。
Men always describe themselves as providers.
总是这样。
Always.
这就是我们被教导的。
That's what we are taught.
这在文化中是存在的。
It exists in culture.
当然，问题在于，当他们不是家庭主要收入来源时会发生什么，这种情况现在越来越常见了。
The problem is, of course, what happens when they are not the top earner, which has happened happening increasingly more now.
所以，我经常问他们，如果不以养家糊口为身份的话，从财务角度来看，你们是谁？
So when I often ask them, who are you, financially speaking, if you're not a provider?
他们就完全愣住了。
And they're just stumped.
但人肯定不只是一个养家糊口的角色。
But there's got to be something more than simply being a provider.
你可以是养家的人，也可以是照顾家的人。
You can be a provider and you can be a nurturer.
你可以是养家的人。
You can be a provider.
你还可以是帮手，是领导者。
You can be a helper, a leader.
有太多不同的可能性了。
There's so many different ways.
你经常能看到，女性会谈论一个秘密账户。
Often, what you'll see with women is discussions about a secret bank account.
留一点钱备用，以防万一。
Keep a little money aside just in case.
我们得记住，在美国，很多祖母当年是不被允许开设自己银行账户的。
We have to remember that in The US, many grandmothers were not allowed to open up their own bank accounts.
那是两代人以前的事了。
That happened in two generations ago.
所以，关于留点钱以防万一——无论是遭遇身体虐待、经济控制，还是离婚——这种经验一直靠口耳相传下来，合情合理。
And so there has been a rightful message that has been passed down orally, keep a little bit of money aside just in case, whether it be physical abuse, financial abuse, divorce, etcetera.
我完全理解这种说法。
And I totally respect that message.
但我认为你不该藏私房钱。
I don't think you should have a secret account.
我支持你有自己的独立账户，但关系里不该有秘密。
I do think you should have an account that is yours only, but no secrets in a relationship.
那在金钱和亲密关系方面，争吵通常是因为什么呢？
What about arguments as it relates to money and relationships?
这些争吵的根源是什么？
What are the the cause of the arguments?
是有人花得太狠了吗？
Is it someone spending too much?
是藏钱了吗？
Is it hiding money?
还是别的什么原因？
Is it something else?
通常不是藏钱的问题。
It's usually not hiding money.
那种情况太极端了。
That's very small extreme.
情侣们最常跟我说的是，他（她）是花钱型，我是存钱型。
The biggest phrase that I get from couples is he or she's a spender, and I'm a saver.
于是就形成了这样的身份标签：他是挥霍型，我是节俭型，或者他根本不愿谈钱。
So it's creating this identity that they're a spender, I'm a saver, or they don't want to talk about money ever.
为什么我就是没法让他（她）坐下来，和我好好对齐一下想法呢？
Why can't I get them to finally sit down with me and get on the same page?
这句话到处都在用。
That's a phrase that's tossed around everywhere.
我问他们，什么叫达成一致？
When I ask them, what is getting on the same page?
他们的回答是：我不知道。
The answer is, I don't know.
我只是想好好聊聊这件事。
I just want to talk about it.
说到钱，当然，我们得搞清楚那些数字。
So when it comes to money, yes, there are the numbers that we need to understand, of course.
但我常跟人说，你对钱的感觉，跟你银行账户里的余额根本没什么关系。
But what I often tell people, the way you feel about money is highly uncorrelated to the amount in your bank account.
所以我接触过很多百万富翁，他们照样为钱发愁。
That is why I speak to so many multimillionaires who still worry about money.
他们总觉得，只要再多五万、五十万，或者五百万就够了。
They think if I just have 50,000 more, 500,000 more, $5,000,000 more.
你猜怎么着？
Well, guess what?
我请过这些人都上我的播客，他们还是为钱发愁。
I've had all those folks on my podcast, and they still worry about money.
所以，要真正掌控你和钱的关系，你得做两件事。
That means there's two things you need to do to master your relationship with money.
第一，你得搞懂你的财务数字。
One, you gotta know your numbers.
这是一门语言，你得先掌握个人理财的基本知识。
This is a language you have to learn the basics of personal finance.
第二，你得搞定你的金钱心理。
Two, you have to master your money psychology.
也就是说，你要改变自己谈论钱的方式、处理钱的行为，这样才能最终改变你对钱的感觉。
That means you need to change the way that you talk about money and behave with money so that you can ultimately change the way you feel about money.
只要你做到这两点，你和钱的关系就会变得非常健康。
You do those two things, you're gonna have a very healthy relationship with money.
我们会详细讲讲这些内容，以及具体该怎么去做。
We'll go into all of those things and how you do them.
关于性别角色，过去几十年里，随着性别平等的进步，越来越多的女性进入职场，担任企业高层职位，收入也大幅提高。
On this point of gender roles, obviously, has changed in the last couple of decades in terms of equality and more women are in work, higher level positions in corporations in the C suite earning much more money.
这导致了传统性别角色和伴侣间各自分工的预期发生了变化。
This has caused a shift, should say, in the sort of typical gender roles and assumptions of what each gender is supposed to be doing in couples.
现在，随着女性收入普遍提升，在很多异性恋关系中，妻子的收入反而超过了丈夫。
And I'm wondering now with more women earning more money, in many cases, they're going to be earning more than their husband in heterosexual relationships.
你有没有注意到，这种情况带来了哪些新的互动模式和问题？比如，有些男性会感到自卑，或者女性因为自己赚得更多而感到不安。
Have you seen new dynamics and new issues created because of this in terms of like I know, insecure men feeling emasculated or the woman not being happy that she's contributing more.
我之所以这么问，是因为几个月前我邀请的一位嘉宾告诉我，大约七成到八成的女性原本期待伴侣的收入比自己高，但现在这个差距正在缩小，因为女性的收入越来越高。
And I asked this because I had someone on my podcast a couple of months back who said to me that I think seventy or 80% of women expect that their romantic partner will earn more than them, but that gap is closing now because women are earning more and more money.
我只是想知道，在那些妻子收入更高的伴侣关系中，是不是真的出现了矛盾？
I'm just wondering if you've seen in those couples scenarios where the woman earns more and is causing problems.
这种事我见得太多了。
I've seen it all the time.
这种情况我见得太多了。
I've seen it all the time.
我觉得我们看到的性别互动模式已经不一样了。
I think that we see different gender dynamics.
我记得有一期节目，我采访了一位年轻女性和她的男朋友。
I recall one episode where I spoke to a young woman and her boyfriend.
她大概四十岁左右。
She was around 40 years old.
她的收入远超她的男朋友。
She made way more than her boyfriend.
你想猜猜她每个月赚多少吗？
Care to guess how much she makes per
两万美元。
month?
两万美元。
$20,000.
每个月二十万美元。
$200,000 per month.
她自己做生意。
She has a business.
生意做得非常好。
It's doing very well.
她大概四十岁左右。
She's around the age of 40.
她男朋友从小就没人教过他怎么管钱。
Now her boyfriend was never taught about money when he was growing up.
大多数人都是这样。
Most people are not.
他从来没学过投资。
He never learned about investing.
他十二岁的时候，更没人跟他提过罗斯IRA这种事。
Certainly, no one was telling him about a Roth IRA when he was 12 years old.
他后来自己创业了，事业也慢慢起来了。
And he had started his own business, and he was on the upswing.
他每个月能赚几千美元。
He's making a few thousand dollars a month.
这挺不错的。
Good for him.
她每个月只赚200美元。
She's making $200 a month.
她五岁的时候，父母就开始跟她讲投资的事了。
Her parents started talking to her about investing when she was five years old.
由此可见，差异不仅来自性别，更来自社会经济背景。
So here we already see a difference, not just in gender, but in socioeconomic status.
明白吗？
Okay?
随着时间推移，这种差距越来越大。
And over time, that progressed.
所以他们来找我，她说：我希望他偶尔请我吃饭。
So they come to me, and she says, I want him to pay for dinner occasionally.
没问题。
Fine.
非常合理。
Super reasonable.
他还主动说：没问题，我乐意。
He even said, no problem.
我愿意付。
I want to.
于是他掏出信用卡，主动提出买单。
So he would take his credit card out and he would offer to pay.
但她却说：不用。
And she would say, no.
我希望你能多为你的个人退休账户存点钱。
I want you to contribute more to your IRA.
所以从很多方面看，她其实是希望他付钱的。
So in many ways, she wanted him to pay.
她只是想感受到被照顾，这完全说得通。
She wanted to feel taken care of, which is totally reasonable.
但他一主动提出付账，她却说不用。
But when he offered, she said no.
这种事我经常看到：我以为自己想要某样东西，可真得到了，却发现根本不是那么回事。
So this is the kind of thing that I often see, which is I think I want one thing, but when I get that thing, I don't actually want it.
它并没有让我觉得像我原来以为的那样安心。
It doesn't make me feel the way I thought it would.
我想多赚五万美元。
I want to earn 50 k more.
我觉得这样我才会觉得有安全感。
I think that'll make me feel safe.
天哪。
Oh my god.
我现在多赚了五万块。
I am earning 50 k more.
但我的感受其实一点都没变。
It doesn't actually change the way I feel.
我曾经帮一对夫妻分析过，为什么他们对钱会有这样的感受。
So I worked with this couple, and I helped them understand why they both felt this way about money.
从外面看，这简直太不讲道理了。
And, you know, from the outside, it's like, this is so irrational.
赚得多了，多花点不就行了？
If you make more, just pay more.
要是换作是我，会怎么样怎么样。
If I were in that situation, etcetera, etcetera.
这些想法根本无关紧要。
None of that stuff matters.
当你身处这段关系中，自然会有特定的感受，我们得从你个人出发来处理，而不是别人怎么想。最终，他们达成的共识是：她希望他偶尔请吃饭，但也希望他把养老金账户充起来。
When you are in the couple in that relationship, you will feel a certain way, and we gotta work with you individually, not what everybody else In the end, the conclusion that they came to was she wanted him to occasionally pay for dinner, but she also wanted him to fill up his IRA.
所以他们就这么做了。
So this is what they did.
每次出去吃饭前，她都会把信用卡给他，说：给你，今晚你来付。
Every so often before they went out to dinner, she would give him her credit card, And she would say, here, I want you to pay for tonight.
他答应了，没问题。
And he said, cool.
他明白她的意思。
He understood it.
他们出去吃饭，每次都这样。
They went out, and that's what they did.
我们坐在这儿看，觉得这做法简直莫名其妙。
Now to us sitting here, we're like, this dance makes no sense.
他们干嘛不直接这么办、那么办呢？
Why don't they just do it this way or that way?
你猜怎么着？
Guess what?
我们每个人都有些在钱的问题上不讲道理的习惯。
Every single one of us has some irrational thing we do with money.
每个人都是如此。
Every single one of us.
我觉得，现在是时候认真聊聊我们到底有多不理性了。
And I think that we are ready to actually have conversations about how we are irrational.
钱不只是纸面上的数字。
Money is not just dollars and cents on a page.
所以你就算赚得比想象中多得多，还是对钱提不起好感。
That's why you don't feel good about money even when you have more than you ever thought you would.
你总为钱发愁，可从来没读过一本理财书。
That's why you worry about money, but you have never read a single book on personal finance.
我们都不理性，包括我自己。
We are all irrational, including me.
当你进入一段关系时，就得承认这一点。
And when you get into a relationship, you gotta acknowledge that.
然后你得说，嘿。
And then you gotta say, hey.
我们共同向往的富裕生活是什么样子？
What is our vision of a rich life together?
咱们一起把它建起来。
Let's build that.
如果每两个月为信用卡的事跳个舞，那也行。
If it means we do a little dance about the credit card once every two months, fine.
我们俩都觉得舒服吗？
Do we both feel good?
这样公平吗？
Is it fair?
那我就没意见了。
Then I'm good with it.
她那边到底是怎么回事？
What's going on there with her?
因为听起来她内心在挣扎，一方面是情感的牵绊，另一方面又是社会期待在施压，可她的理智又在说：不行。
Because it it sounds like there's this battle between her mind and maybe her heart, or it's almost like the social expectation is coming in, but then her her brain is saying, no.
把钱投进个人退休账户。
Invest in the IRA.
IRA是什么，如果有人不清楚的话，在其他地方它就是
And an IRA, for anyone that doesn't know, in in other parts It's
一种退休储蓄账户。
a retirement account.
一种退休储蓄账户。
A retirement account.
所以她说，既要为未来投资，又要请我吃晚饭。
So she's saying invest in the future, but also buy my dinner.
其实都是一回事。
Well, the same it's the same.
我们都面临这样的矛盾：社会给我们灌输了一套标准，可我们心里并不完全认同，也不知道该怎么选。
We all have these things that society has told us, but then we don't quite agree and we're not sure what to do.
上次我来这里的时候，我们聊过，其实过上富足的生活并不一定非得买房。
Last time I was here, we talked about how you don't necessarily need to buy a house in order to live a rich life.
就我本人而言，过去二十年我一直是主动选择租房，结果我靠租房省下的钱去投资，赚得比买房还多。
And in my case, I have rented for the last twenty years by choice, and I made more money renting and investing the difference than I would have by buying a house.
这种说法让很多人感到震惊。
And this is shocking to people.
就像上次我们看到的评论一样。
Like, we saw the comments last time.
大家简直炸锅了。
People went berserk.
你怎么能谈租房这件事？
How can you talk about renting?
你把钱花在房租上，不就是白白扔掉吗？
You're just throwing money away on rent.
这种观念我们几代人一直被灌输：要想成功，就必须买房。
And this is something we have been fed constantly for generations that in order to be successful, you must buy a house.
所以当像我这样的人出来讲，其实你该算笔账，因为有时候租房反而更划算，人们都震惊了。
So when somebody like me comes around and says, actually, you should run the numbers because sometimes renting can be better, people are shocked.
同样的道理，如果你希望被照顾、被体贴，或者希望对方请你第一次约会。
Same thing with if you want to be taken care of or you want someone to treat you or you want someone to pay for the first date.
当男人谈起自己要当供养者时，也是这样。
Same thing when men come and they talk about being a provider.
但在一些关系里，男方收入其实更低，我会跟他们说，算一算账，你根本不是那个供养的人。
But in certain relationships where they actually earn less, I'll say to them, if we look at the numbers, you're not the provider.
那你是谁呢？
So who are you?
他们一下子愣住了。
And they're stumped.
这时候，我们就得开始面对一个事实：也许我们从小被灌输的那些观念，并不完全适用于今天的我们，这没什么大不了的。
And that is when we need to start grappling with the idea that maybe what we were told is not exactly true for us in our situation today, and that's okay.
你觉得呢
Do you think
当女性收入高于男性时，这种关系中的权力动态和男性自尊受挫的问题，据你观察，是不是更常见？
it causes more problems when the in terms of the relationship dynamics and that sort of emasculation and, you know, that the man not feeling like a provider when the woman earns more money than the man from what you've seen?
不一定。
Not necessarily.
我觉得这跟我们过去习惯的模式不一样。
I think that it is a different framework than we're used to.
对。
Yeah.
比如我父母那一代，我妈全职在家带孩子，我爸一个人上班赚钱，就一个收入来源。
When we think about my parents, for example, my mom stayed home with us, my dad went to work, single earner.
很简单。
Simple.
每个人都知道自己该做什么，角色很明确。
Everybody knew where they stood, what the roles were.
非常清晰。
It was very simple.
现在想这么做可太难了。
It's very difficult to do that today.
房价历来都很高。
Housing is historically expensive.
医疗费用也很贵，尤其是在美国。
Healthcare is expensive, especially in The US.
所以现在通常得两个人一起赚钱。
And so you have two people earning.
在大城市里，很多二十多岁的女性收入已经超过男性了。
In urban cities, you have young women earning more than men in their twenties.
我们很多人都在琢磨，这对我自己、对伴侣、对我们的关系意味着什么。
A lot of us are trying to figure out what does this role mean for me and for my partner and for our relationship.
这就让事情变得复杂了。
That makes it tricky.
我很好奇，是不是很多男性选择先不结婚，等自己真正成熟了再说？说实话，我觉得这可能也是我会走的路。
I wonder if a lot of men are just choosing to remain single until they've kind of worked on themselves because I think actually that's probably the path I would have taken if I'm being completely honest.
其实我一直等到自己有能力养家了，才开始谈恋爱。
Well, I kind of did take is I didn't have a relationship until I was able to really provide.
哦，那个‘养’字。
Oh, the p word.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
这个词到底是从哪儿来的？
And where did that word come from?
养家。
Provide.
就像看着我爸，还有看各种电影，方方面面都影响了我。
Like watching my father, watching movies, everything.
没错。
Exactly.
是的。
Yeah.
从来没人会直接说‘你是个提供者’，但我们从无数个不同的角度都学到了这一点。
No one ever says, like, you are a provider, but we learn it from a million different perspectives.
而且，我确实听到很多男生这么说。
And, yeah, I hear a lot of guys.
我以前住在纽约的时候，身边很多单身朋友，大家常聊的话题就是：我还没准备好结婚。
I mean, when I was living in New York and I had a lot of single friends, topic of conversation was, I'm not ready to get married.
我得先在事业上达到某个阶段才行。
I need to get to a certain point in my career first.
但你用了这么多词来掩饰，其实心底里，那种感觉大家都是在表达的。
But you have all these words for it, and deep down, there's a feeling that we're often expressing.
你懂的。
You know?
也许我还没准备好。
Maybe I'm not ready.
也许我还不够好。
Maybe I'm not enough.
也许我得先做到这些、那些、另外一些事，才能去做我想做的事。
Maybe I need to do x, y, z before I do the thing that I want.
所以我们在谈感情和金钱的时候，其实该把这层窗户纸捅破。
And so part of what we talk about when it comes to relationships and money is like, let's actually shine a light on that.
别躲着不谈。
Let's not be shy about it.
你想让别人请客吃饭，没问题。
If you want someone to pay for your dinner, fine.
这完全没问题。
That's totally fine.
咱们干脆把这事摊开说清楚。
Let's have that conversation.
如果你希望成为家里唯一的经济支柱，那也行。
If you want to be the sole earner in your household, okay.
咱们来看看需要些什么。
Let's see what it would take.
但很多时候，我们根本不开这种口。
And too often, we don't have those conversations.
光是绕着它们打转，就转了五十年。
We just dance around them for fifty years.
那第一次约会该谁付钱呢？
Who should pay for the first date then?
我的看法是，这根本不重要。
My answer is doesn't matter.
如果约对方的人出钱，当然挺好，但我觉得我们太纠结于第一次约会了，反而忽略了之后的整整一万四千六百二十五天。
It would be nice if the person who suggested the date pays, but I think we spend way too much time focusing on the first date and way too little time thinking about the next fourteen thousand six hundred and twenty five days.
就像一对只盯着婚礼的夫妻。
It's like a couple who's obsessed with the wedding.
这没问题。
Fine.
你想要一场漂亮的婚礼。
You want a nice wedding.
没问题。
Great.
那婚姻呢？
What about the marriage?
钱的问题也是一样。
Same thing with money.
第一次约会，这个我们倒是可以聊聊。
First date, okay, we can have that conversation.
但你难道不更关心对方怎么看待钱、怎么谈论钱吗？
But aren't you more interested in how your partner thinks about money and talks about money?
他是那种特别抠门的人吗？
Are they a cheapskate?
还是说他很大方？
Are they generous?
他们富足吗？
Are they abundant?
他们成长的环境和你一样还是不一样？
Did they grow up the same or different than you?
这个问题我们从来不谈。
That is something we don't talk about.
与此同时，网上有五百万个视频在讨论第一次约会谁该付钱。
Meanwhile, we have 5,000,000 YouTube videos on who's going pay on the first date.
我们忽略了真正关键的问题。
We are missing the real point.
感情中关于金钱的核心，不只是第一次约会谁买单。
The point of money in a relationship is not just about the first date.
那些内容只是博点击的噱头，真正重要的是我们对金钱的看法是否一致。
That's fun for clicks, but it's about do we see money the same way?
我们能彼此理解吗？
Do we connect?
我们俩的方向是一致的，还是你干你的，我干我的？
Are we going to be rowing in the same direction, or are you going to be doing that and I'm doing this?
这样永远没法达成一致。
And we can never get aligned.
第一印象只有一次机会。
You can only make a first impression once.
对吧？
Right?
如果你是男生，我就是这么想的。
And if you are a guy, this is just how I feel anyway.
如果我约女生第一次见面，吃顿不错的饭，氛围特别好，
If I go on a date, a first date with a woman and we have a wonderful date, we you know, it's a nice restaurant Yeah.
到结束的时候，我问她：我们AA吧？
And then it gets to the end of the day, and then I turn to her and say, should we split the bill?
说实话，这话我根本说不出口。
I can't even say it with a straight face, frankly.
我根本不可能让她付钱。
I couldn't I definitely couldn't ask her to pay.
是的。
Yeah.
我真的就是做不到。
I just I just could never.
如果你匿名问我的十个女性朋友，如果第一次约会时男生提出AA制，她们会怎么想？
And if I think if you anonymously polled 10 of my female friends and said, how would you feel if on the first date, the guy asked you to pay?
对。
Mhmm.
我觉得她们私下都会说，这挺让人倒胃口的。
I think privately, they would say, that's a bit of a turn off.
这明显是个危险信号。
That's a red flag.
这简直是
That's an
我觉得很可能确实如此。
I think probably that's true.
而且这再次说明了社会化的影响力。
And, again, goes to the power of socialization.
对吧？
Right?
文化这种东西，改变起来真的很难。
Like, culture is very difficult to change.
我们得承认这一点。
We got to admit that.
我们得正视这个问题。
We got to acknowledge that.
我以前约会的时候，一直都是我付钱。
And when I was dating, I paid for dates.
所以我对这事儿并不反感。
So I don't have a problem with it.
我喜欢大方一点。
I like to be generous.
我觉得在一段关系里，你自然希望对方也挺慷慨的。
I think that when you are in a relationship, you like to know that your partner is generous too.
不过慷慨的方式有很多种。
Now, generous comes in lots of ways.
比如请客吃饭。
It could be paying for dates.
比如计划一次旅行。
It could be planning a trip.
比如细心体贴，看到牙膏快用完了就顺手多买一管。
It could be being thoughtful and, you know, buying extra toothpaste because we're running low.
慷慨的方式千千万万，但对我来说，慷慨是一种价值观。
There's so many different ways to be generous, but generosity for me would be a value.
请客吃饭，当然算。
Paying for a date, sure.
我会主动买单。
I paid for dates.
我很乐意这么做。
I'm happy to.
我自己也挺喜欢这样做的。
I like to do it.
不过对我来说，在一段关系里，比起约会本身，更重要的是去聊聊彼此是否大方慷慨。
But generosity to me is way more important to talk about that in a relationship versus the date itself.
因为骑士精神嘛，你知道的，就是那种男人应该在这方面的事情上主导，比如开门之类的，对。
Because chivalry, you know, this this idea that the man is to lead in that regard and to, you know, open the door Yeah.
然后拉开车门，再帮你把椅子拉出来。
And open the car door and pull out the chair.
对。
Yeah.
但你想想看。
But think about it.
我同意这些观点。
I agree with all that stuff.
我完全支持。
I I'm I support it.
但你想一想，当你告诉男人要绅士，却没有给出任何实际背景或指导时，这传递了什么样的信息？
But think about what message that sends when you tell men you're supposed to be chivalrous, but there's no real context, no real teaching around it.
假设现在有个26岁的男生，收入比女朋友低。
And let's say you have a 26 year old guy now who's earning less than his girlfriend.
他想表现得绅士，可一看到双方的银行账户，他就犯难了。
So he wants to be chivalrous, but for him, he's like, well, look at our bank accounts.
所以我想要强调的是，你可以保持绅士风度。
And so what I want to emphasize to people is you can be chivalrous.
你可以大方体贴。
You could be generous.
钱只是其中很小的一部分。
Money is just a small part of that.
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是的
Yeah.
咱们别老盯着谁付塔帕斯的钱了。
Let's not over fixate on who's paying for tapas.
明白吗？
Okay?
咱们该想想真正重要的事。
And let's actually think about the important things.
说到钱，我们太纠结于几块钱的小事了。
When it comes to money, we are so obsessed with $3 questions.
人们总在纠结：这杯咖啡该不该买？
People are obsessing over, should I buy this coffee?
这个小吃我能不能付得起？
Can I afford this appetizer?
没完没了地纠结这些几块钱的问题。
On and on and on about $3 questions.
我们完全忽略了那些三万美元、三十万美元的问题。
We totally neglect the $30,000 questions or the $300,000 questions.
这个人和我在财务上合得来吗？
Is this person financially aligned with me?
我该怎么去了解呢？
How do I even find out?
我每个月有没有把收入的百分之五到十拿去投资？
Am I investing five to 10% of take home pay every month?
我们是不是一起在做这件事？
Are we doing it together?
我们有没有经常、主动、积极地聊钱的事？
Do we talk about money regularly and proactively and positively?
这些才重要，真正值几十万美元。
Those things matter, and they're actually worth hundreds of thousands of dollars.
像谁付小吃钱、要不要买杯拿铁这种三美元的问题，根本无关紧要。
These $3 questions, including who's paying for appetizers or should I buy a latte, irrelevant.
事实上，只要把人生中那些大事想明白了，想买多少开胃菜都行。
In fact, get get the big answers in life right, and you can buy all the appetizers you ever want.
恋爱关系中有哪些财务方面的警示信号呢？
What are the financial red flags in
那在一段关系里，最大的财务警示信号是什么？
a relationship then?
第一，对方根本不愿意谈钱。
Number one is they don't wanna talk about money.
如果你连谈钱都不愿意，那就是最大的警示信号了。
If you don't wanna talk about money, red flag, the biggest red flag of all.
因为大家对钱的看法本来就可以不一样。
Because we could differ on how we see money.
甚至在一些具体事情上，价值观有差异也很正常。
We can even have different values for a few things.
但如果你的伴侣就是死活不肯谈钱，那问题就大了。
But if your partner simply will not talk about money, you have a huge problem.
为什么？
Why?
如果你连钱的事都开不了口，那就根本没法理解对方的想法，对方也不关心你想要什么。
If you can't talk about money, then you can't even understand where they're coming from, and they are not curious about what you want.
那你们怎么才能达成一致呢？
So how are you ever going to get on the same page?
你想想看。
Think about this.
很多人以为，谈钱就是一次性的对话。
A lot of people think we need to have the conversation about money.
好像只要谈一次就够了。
The con as if it's one conversation.
你会一次性谈完怎么养孩子的事吗？
Would you have the conversation about raising kids?
不会。
No.
你这一生会经历无数次这样的对话。
You'll have thousands in your life.
本来就应该这样。
That's the way it should be.
谈钱跟养孩子很像，不是像今天该打匹克球还是网球那种小事。
Money is very much like parenting, not like, should we play pickleball or tennis today?
完全不相关。
Irrelevant.
所以我们需要多次、深入地讨论钱的问题。
So we wanna have lots of conversations about money.
首先得愿意开口谈，然后还得想办法让这个过程变得有趣。
And that means we need to, first of all, be willing to talk about it, and then we need to find a way to have fun doing it.
那为什么我们就不这么做呢？
Why don't we?
谁不是这样呢？
And who doesn't?
是男人吗？
Is it men?
是女人更不愿意谈钱吗？
Is it women that don't do it more more?
到底是谁不谈钱？为什么他们不愿意谈？
Or who's not talking about money, and why aren't they talking about it?
这跟性别没关系。
It's not about gender.
不管是谁，谈不谈钱跟性别完全无关。
Couple it has nothing to do with gender in terms of who does or doesn't talk about money.
有些人会回避。
There are avoiders.
这是我总结的四种金钱类型之一。
That's one of four categories, money types that I've identified.
回避型的人特别讨厌谈钱，他们会用各种有意识或无意识的方法躲开这个话题。
Avoiders hate talking about money, and they will use a series of conscious and unconscious techniques to avoid talking about money.
他们会说，你干嘛总把钱挂在嘴上？
They'll say things like, why why do you always have to talk about money?
咱们就不能好好吃顿饭吗？
Can't we just have a nice night out?
或者你在这方面厉害多了。
Or you're so much better at this.
你来管就行了。
You just handle it.
你对这些事儿可真懂行。
You're just so much savvier at this stuff.
这就是回避型。
That's an avoider.
他们清楚自己的财务状况吗？
Do they know their own financial situation?
不清楚。
No.
所以他们连自己的财务状况都不清楚，也不愿意谈这个。
So they don't know their own financial situation, and they don't wanna talk about it.
没错。
Correct.
我们其实每个人身上都有类似的情况。
We and by the way, we all have something like this.
可能是健身方面。
It could be our fitness.
也可能是和父母的关系。
It could be our relationship with our parents.
生活中总有些事，我们心里清楚该去面对，却一直在躲着。
There's something in our life that we know we should deep down, but we avoid it.
是的。
Yeah.
而且短期内也不会有什么直接的后果。
And there's no there's no immediate consequence.
比如，我不给大学朋友打电话，也没啥大不了的。
Like, if I don't call my college friend, it's fine.
我明天打给他也行，这种事能一直拖下去，直到有一天再也拖不下去了。
I could probably call him tomorrow, and you can go on and on and on like that until one day you can't.
健身也是同样的道理。
Same thing with our fitness.
拖延健身或者理财特别容易，因为总不至于房子被收走，连网费都没停。
It's very easy to procrastinate on fitness or money because it's not like your house is being taken away or even your cable's being shut off.
表面上看好像没啥问题，可总有一天你会撞上一堵墙，到那时就晚了。
It'll probably be fine until one day you hit this brick wall and it's not.
这就是回避型。
So that's the Avoider.
这是第一种理财类型。
That's the first money type.
对。
Yep.
接下来是优化型。
Next up, Optimizer.
我对这种类型特别有好感，因为我就是个优化型的人。
I have a soft spot because I am an optimizer.
优化型的人最爱泡在表格里了。
Optimizers, we love to live in a spreadsheet.
我就喜欢坐下来慢慢算，比如算一下复利，做个蒙特卡洛模拟，再想想要是这么做而不是那么做会怎么样。
It's like, let me sit and calculate this, and what if I run a compound interest calculation, a Monte Carlo calculation, and what if we do this but not that?
我特别享受计算一切的过程。
I love calculating everything.
要是没人管我，我都能这么算上一辈子。
And left alone, I would sit there and do that for the rest of my life.
明白吗？
Okay?
问题是，这事儿容易过头。
The problem is you can take it a little too far.
不过我觉得我还没走得太远。
Now I don't think I've taken it too far.
我在表格里算得完美无缺，但我老婆告诉我，适可而止就行了。
Perf I think I'm perfect on my spreadsheets, but my wife has taught me enough's enough.
我们在那方面已经赢了。
We we've won that part of life.
咱们该把注意力放在别的地方了——比如人与人的连接、乐趣和体验。
Let's focus on another part, connection and fun and experience.
这些人是不是常被人觉得无聊？
Are these people often thought of as boring?
是的。
Yes.
确实如此。
They are.
说到底，他们确实有点无聊。
They are deep down, they are boring.
我以前坐在那儿的时候，总觉得钱就是一堆数字，那样子可真无趣。
I was boring when I was sitting there thinking money is only about numbers.
其实不是这样的。
It's not.
钱关乎冒险、机会和慷慨，你经常会遇到那些特别爱优化的人。
Money is about adventure and possibility and generosity, and you will often find optimizers.
我会给他们出个难题。
I'll give them a challenge.
我会给他们一个一百美元的挑战。
I'll give them a $100 challenge.
接下来的一周，你得拿这一百美元花在自己身上。
Also, you have to take a $100 in the next week and spend it on yourself.
他们根本做不到。
They cannot do it.
最后准会拿去给狗买东西。
They will spend it on their dog.
他们会把钱花在孩子身上。
They'll spend it on their kid.
他们会花在伴侣身上，但就是不肯为自己花。
They'll spend it on their partner, but they will not do it for themselves.
我就问，那你为什么没花呢？
And I go, why didn't you do it?
他们说，拉米特，你知道吗？如果你把一百块投进标普500，复利四十五年，能变成这么多？
They go, Ramit, do you know that if you put a $100 in the S and P 500 and you compound that for the next forty five years, it'll turn into this much?
我说，我才不在乎呢。
I go, I don't give a shit.
把钱花掉。
Spend the money.
因为钱本来就不是用来囤着的。
Because money is not simply meant to be hoarded.
对吧？
Right?
钱是用来过上富足生活的。
It's meant to create a rich life.
而当你有了精打细算的人，他们确实能帮你达到不错的状态。
And when you have optimizers, the thing is they can get you to a very good place.
他们会把你的账户安排得妥妥当当。
They will probably have your account set up, dialed in.
他们会持续投资。
They'll be investing.
这很好。
Great.
他们会为此感到特别自豪。
They're gonna be very proud.
看看复利带来的回报吧。
Look at the compound interest returns.
这些都没问题，但有时候会过头了。
All that is fantastic, but it can be taken too far.
这些人去世后，你才发现他们居然有九百万美元。
These are the people that die, and then you figure out that they had, like, $9,000,000
是啊。
Yeah.
真是浪费啊。
What a waste.
这算什么储蓄账户。
Some saving account.
真是浪费啊。
What a waste.
他们一辈子没尝过鱼子酱，却攒了这么多钱。
They never tasted the caviar, but they've got
是啊。
Yeah.
有人还会转发报纸上的新闻，说某位图书管理员死后被发现有九百万美元。
Like, people send these newspaper articles around, oh, librarian discovered to have $9,000,000.
我就想，这真是个悲剧。
And I go, what a tragedy.
活得太拘束，远不如该有的样子，真是可惜。
What a tragedy to live a smaller life than you have to.
我希望你能存钱。
Like, I want you to save.
我希望你能投资，但同时也希望你能去吃顿好饭。
I want you to invest, but I also want you to try a nice meal.
如果你不喜欢高档餐饮，或者不想买件好衣服，那也没关系。
Or if you don't like nice food or you don't want a nice T shirt, also fine.
大方一点吧。
Get super generous.
把钱花出去。
Give that money.
给身边的人一个惊喜。
Surprise the people around you.
小费给百分之五十。
Tip 50%.
这些就是精打细算的人。
So those are optimizers.
第三类人是爱操心的人。
The third category is worriers.
他们特别喜欢操心。
They love to worry.
他们几乎总是从父母那儿学会了操心，对钱的态度全都是焦虑。
Typically, they picked up worrying from their parents almost always, and their entire relationship with money is worry.
我们够不够用啊？
Are we gonna have enough?
要是钱花光了怎么办？
What if we run out of money?
要是加油的钱都不够怎么办？
What if we don't have enough to pay at the gas station?
而且很多时候这让人很惊讶，因为我之前说过，有一半的夫妻根本不知道自己赚多少钱。
And oftentimes, it's very surprising because I told you that fifty percent of couples don't know how much they make.
对吧？
Right?
所以他们会说，我们得再多赚点。
So they'll say, like, we need more.
现在手头太紧了。
We don't have enough right now.
我就会问他们，你们觉得自己一年赚多少？
And I'll ask them, how much do you think you make?
就在几周前，有个播客节目里刚发生过这事。
This just happened a couple of weeks ago on a podcast episode.
他们以为自己一年赚七万美元左右。
They thought they made around $70,000 a year.
明白吗？
Okay?
我们把他们的所有收入加在一起。
We add up all their stuff.
他们其实一年赚十二万美元。
They make a $120,000 a year.
于是我跟他们说：瞧，问题在这儿。
So I go, well, here you go.
你们不是想要多赚四万吗？
You you wanted to make an extra 40 k.
你们实际赚的比想象中多了五万。
You actually make 50 k more than you thought.
现在感觉好点了吗？
Do you feel any better?
她却说：没有。
And she goes, no.
因为人对钱的感受，跟银行账户里的数字根本没什么关系。
Because the way you feel about money is highly uncorrelated to the amount in your bank account.
所以爱担心的人就会一直担心。
So worriers worry.
这就是他们对待金钱的方式。
That's how they relate.
他们根本想象不出还有别的相处方式，而我的工作就是帮他们看清事实——先来看看你的实际数字。
They can't imagine any other relationship to money, and my job is to help them realize, first of all, let's actually look at your numbers.
让我帮你弄明白这些数字到底意味着什么。
Let let me help you understand what it means.
你的钱够用吗？
Do you have enough?
到底要多少才算够？
What does it take to have enough?
然后，你能不能开始建立一种新的金钱观？
And then can you start to develop a new relationship with money?
这就像长出了一个新的味蕾。
It's almost like a new taste bud.
我绝不会逼你吃你讨厌的番茄，但我可能会带你发现，也许你喜欢秋葵，我们可以慢慢培养对它的口味。
I'm never gonna tell you to eat tomatoes if you hate tomatoes, but I am gonna teach you maybe you like okra, and we can develop a new taste for that.
最后一种人，是梦想家。
Finally, the dreamer.
梦想家总觉得，成功就差最后一笔交易。
The dreamer believes that success is one deal away.
只要谈成这单，只要拿到这个机会，他们往往容易陷入暴富骗局。
If we just close this deal, if I just get this thing and they tend to fall into get rich quick schemes.
各种骗局、多层次营销，还有大量山寨加密货币，全是忽悠人的东西，但他们就是对稳健、低成本、长期投资提不起兴趣。
Lots of scams, MLMs, a lot of crypto shitcoin scams, like all this BS, but they are extremely resistant to calm, low cost, long term investing.
换句话说，大多数人真正积累财富的方式。
In other words, the way that most people build real wealth.
他们觉得这太无聊了。
They think it's boring.
他们甚至会脱口而出：‘唉，真没劲。’
They even have little phrases like, ugh.
我可不想像那些人一样，天天朝九晚五地熬着。
I don't wanna be stuck in a nine to five like those suckers.
你瞧，那个人赚的钱是你的十倍。
I'm like, that sucker makes 10 times what you make.
你这话从何说起？
What are you talking about?
他们就是被一种想法给困住了——再做成一笔生意，就能翻身了。
But they have simply been surrounded with the idea, one more deal, and I'll finally make it.
跟这样的人结婚，简直没法过。
They must be hard to be married to.
根本不可能。
It's impossible.
真的特别特别难。
It's really, really difficult.
他们不仅不愿意谈钱，就算终于开口谈了，也像是活在另一个世界里。
They don't not only do they not want to talk about money, when they finally do talk about money, they're almost living in a different world.
很多时候，你会发现那些梦想家之所以能做梦，是因为有人在背后养着他们，通常是他们的伴侣。
Often, will find that dreamers can only dream because they are being subsidized by someone in their life, usually their partner.
一旦伴侣离开，整个结构就会瞬间崩塌。
And if their partner were to leave, for example, the house of cards would collapse.
而实际上，往往只有到了这一步，他们才会真正开始改变。
And, actually, that's usually the only thing that gets them to truly change.
所以按照你所说的这四种金钱类型，对吧？
So if we've got these four money types Mhmm.
逃避者、优化者、战士和梦想家，在你看来，哪种人过得更幸福？
The Avoider, the Optimizer, the Warrior, the Dreamer, in your view, who lives a happier life?
不管你是哪一种，都能过上幸福的生活。
You can live a happy life with any of these.
是的。
Yeah.
而且，你也可以改变自己的类型。
Also, you can change any of these types.
但一般来说，大多数人可能会
But on average, one person's gonna probably Well,
我是说，领先的那种。
I mean leading.
我是优化型人格，而且我挺开心的。
I I'm the optimizer, and I'm pretty happy.
所以这就是答案吗？
So is that is that the answer?
是的。
Yeah.
优化型的人很棒。
Optimizers are great.
他们特别喜欢自己的电子表格。
They love their spreadsheet.
我觉得
I think that
战士显然不会过上最幸福的生活。
The warrior clearly is not gonna live the happiest life.
梦想家其实挺快乐的。
The dreamer is actually quite happy.
对。
Yeah.
梦想家确实很快乐。
The dreamer's quite happy.
他们活在乐观之中。
They live in optimism.
是的。
Yeah.
他们活在一个不真实的世界里。
They're living in a world that's not real.
这背后是别人在支撑着。
It's subsidized by somebody else.
他们总是对下周、下个月、明年会发生什么充满乐观，却从没意识到自己身后留下的是一片烂摊子。
They're always optimistic about what's gonna happen next week, next month, next year, never realizing the catastrophe that they are leaving behind them.
这正是问题的核心。
That's that's the whole issue.
我写这本书的原因是，单身的时候，你怎样对待金钱是一回事。
This is reason I wrote the book is it's one thing to treat money in a certain way on your own when you're single.
你可以不负责任。
You can be irresponsible.
你可以做个精打细算的人。
You can be an optimizer.
但一旦进入一段关系，就不再只是你自己的事了。
But when you're in a relationship, it's not about you anymore.
而是你们两个人作为一个整体的事。
It's about the two of you as a unit.
所以你得真正了解自己，还要愿意和伴侣沟通，一起为你们俩打造一个充实的生活愿景。
And so you have to deeply understand yourself, and then you have to be willing to communicate with your partner and really create a rich life vision for the two of you.
我接触的大多数夫妻，根本没想过钱该用来实现什么目标。
Most couples I talk to have no vision for their money.
所以他们才会为在塔吉特花了五十块吵个不停。
That's why they fight over who spent $50 at Target.
谁在乎塔吉特那点钱啊？
I go, who gives a shit about Target?
夫妻之间的财务问题，几乎从来不是因为多花了几十块在超市。
Financial problems are almost never about overspending at Target.
夫妻理财最大的问题，是根本没共同的生活愿景。
The biggest problem with couples and money is they have no rich life vision.
钱对我们来说意味着什么？
What is money to us?
我们想用钱去实现什么？
What do we want to use money for?
我们希望对钱抱有什么样的感受？
How do we wanna feel about it?
所以他们每周都要面对成千上万的金钱选择，却没有任何方向来指引他们。
So they're confronted with a thousand different decisions with their money every week, and they have no vision to guide them.
这个是我们要的。
This is for us.
这个不是我们想要的。
This is not for us.
我一直很好奇，在感情里，有多少伴侣知道对方储蓄账户里有多少钱，整个投资组合加起来值多少？
One of the things I've always wondered in relationships is how many couples know how much money the other couple has in their savings account and their total sort of investment portfolio?
因为我从来没在一段关系里见过，说实话，我总共也就认真谈过两段感情。
Because I've never been in a relationship where I mean, I've only really been in two relationships, you could say.
但这些年我约会过不少人，和现在的伴侣也在一起很多年了。
But I've been with, you know, dated people over the years, been with my current partner for many, many, many years.
可就连现在的伴侣，也不知道我到底有多少钱。
But even my current partner has no idea how much money I have.
完全一无所知。
Zero idea.
你们什么时候谈这件事？
When will you have that conversation?
估计永远不会谈。
Probably never.
我们现在就把它们拿出来吗？
Should we bring them out right now?
咱们把它们拿出来吧。
Let's bring them out.
我从来就没跟人谈过这个。
I've just never had the conversation.
如果你需要什么，我们随时可以买。
If we if you need something, we can get it.
对。
Yeah.
一直都是这样。
And it's just always been like that Yeah.
在我的人生里。
In my life.
好的。
Okay.
我在自己的感情关系中犯过一个错。
So I I made a mistake in my own relationship.
我跟现在太太交往了很多年，有一回她问起她的401(k)账户之类的事。
I was, dating my now wife for many years, and at one point, she had asked some question about her four zero one k or something.
我就说，哎，有本书叫《我会教你变富》，我这儿有一本。
And I said, well, there is a book called I Will Teach to Be Rich.
这是书，拿去吧。
Here's a copy of it.
我当时是跟她开玩笑的。
And I was joking around with her.
结果呢，我反而把她的财务状况全都摸清楚了。
And so it I ended up learning all about her finances.
所以我对她所有的财务状况都一清二楚。
So I knew about her entire financial picture.
我压根没想到该跟她说说我的情况。
It didn't occur to me to talk about my own.
过了一阵子，她很直接地跟我说：这不公平。
And a little while later, she she very assertively said, this doesn't feel fair.
你什么都知道，可我对你的事却一无所知。
You know everything about my finances, but I don't know about yours.
我这才意识到，我违背了自己第一本书第九章的准则：要尽早谈钱。
And I realized I violated my own rule in chapter nine of my first book, which is talk about money early on.
还要经常谈。
Talk about it regularly.
于是我们就开了诚布公地聊了一次。
So we talked about it.
那次对话特别难忘，我们聊了具体数字，聊了我为打拼事业、坚持投资二十多年、快三十年的骄傲。
We talked about it was actually one of the most memorable conversations we had because talked about the numbers, talked about my pride in how hard I had worked to build my business and invest for twenty years, twenty five years.
然后我们聊了谈这些对我们意味着什么。
And and then we talked about what it meant for us.
比如，我们想过什么样的生活？
Like, what kind of life do we wanna have?
我们想住在这里吗？
Do we wanna live here?
还是想住在那里？
Do we wanna live there?
我们想生孩子吗？
Do we wanna have kids?
我们想吃这样的食物吗？
Do we wanna eat this type of food?
旅行。
Travel.
这种关于可能性的对话，是我希望每一对伴侣都去谈的，因为它关乎未来，能让人开始憧憬。
Like, that conversation about possibility is the conversation I want every couple to have because it's about possibility, and you can start to dream.
这个梦想很重要。
And that dream is important.
细节问题总能解决。
You can get to the logistics.
当然，我们迟早会谈到这些。
Of course, we'll get to that.
但很少有人会用钱去想象未来的生活。
But so few of us still dream with our money.
但我觉得，像你这样擅长优化的人，确实如此。
But I, you know, the I think for someone like you who is the optimizer Mhmm.
而且你很可能对自己的这套系统感到自豪。
And who's probably quite proud of the system you've created I
我喜欢系统。
love systems.
但现在有很多听者正处于恋爱初期，还在约会阶段。
But there's gonna be so many people listening now that are in a relationship and they are maybe early in the dating process.
也许他们已经和对方交往六个月了。
And maybe they've been with a person six months.
带对方出去吃了好多次不错的饭，自己储蓄账户里还有一千美元。
They've taken them out on lots of nice dates, and they have a thousand dollars in their savings account.
但对方对此一无所知。
And their partner has no idea.
是的。
Yeah.
他们在想，拉米特，如果我告诉伴侣我账户里有多少钱，她一定会震惊，他也会震惊，然后就会离开我。
And they're thinking, Ramit, if I tell my partner what's in this bank account, she is gonna be shocked or he is gonna be shocked, and they are gonna leave me.
所以我才把这个秘密藏着，因为他们活在一种假象里。
So I'm keeping this shit a secret because they are living under an illusion.
我比实际拥有的要富有得多。
That I have more than I actually have.
对。
Yeah.
但你要记住，你手头的钱没那么多，并不意味着你这个人就低人一等。
But remember this, just because you don't have as much money as you want doesn't mean that you are less of a person.
还有什么比这更
What could be
我完全同意。
more I completely agree.
没错。
Yeah.
我完全同意。
I completely agree.
还有什么比
What could be more
更吸引人的，就是说一句：你知道吗？
appealing than saying, you know what?
你愿意和我聊聊我们的财务状况吗？
Would you be open to talk about our finances?
我们有点认真起来了。
We're getting a little bit serious.
你知道的。
You know?
我知道我们在谈要迈下一步了。
I know we're kind of talking about taking the next step.
我觉得钱肯定会是其中很重要的一部分。
I think money is gonna be an important part of it.
对我而言确实如此，我在想我们能不能坐下来好好聊聊。
I know it is for me, and I wonder if we could sit down and talk about it.
首先，主动一点总没错。
First, just being proactive.
有多少正在听、正在看的人，心里想着：真希望我的伴侣——不管是刚约会还是已经在一起二十年了——能主动来找我，说咱们坐下来谈谈钱的事吧？
How many people watching and listening are like, I wish my partner, whether they're dating or my partner of twenty years, would come to me and say, can we sit down and talk about money?
但有些伴侣对自己的财务状况感到羞耻。
But the partner that is is shameful about their financial situation.
是的。
Yes.
如果回溯到十年前，我住在叫拉什霍尔姆的地方。
If I run it back ten years, just over ten years ago, I was living in an area called, Rushholm.
我跟几个合法来英国的人合住一套房子。
I was in a shared house with living with some a few people who had come to The UK legally.
明白。
Okay.
我房间里连地毯都没有。
I didn't have a carpet in my room.
我睡一张单人床，连被子和床单都没有。
I was in a single bed, didn't have duvets or bedsheets or anything.
每天早上醒来，我都在想：今天该怎么吃饭？
And every day I woke up and thought to myself, how am I going to eat today?
所以我得想各种办法弄到吃的。
So I'd find different ways to find food.
那时候，我还在和一个叫鲁比的女孩交往。
At the same time, was dating this girl called Ruby.
那个叫鲁比的女孩完全不知道我的情况。
This girl called Ruby had no idea.
她从来没去过我住的地方。
She'd never seen where I lived.
她根本不知道我经常在快餐店的沙发后面翻找硬币。
She wasn't aware that I was looking behind sofas in takeaways for pound coins.
我绝对不可能告诉鲁比我当时的经济状况有多糟糕。
There is no possibility in the world that I would have ever told Ruby the financial situation I was in.
我当时真的不知道该怎么办才好。
I like so I don't know what to do in that situation.
我相信，现在听这段话的三分之一左右的人，也不敢跟伴侣坦白自己的财务状况，因为他们太羞愧了，生怕对方知道真相后会离开，或者看不起自己，不再那么有吸引力。
And I'm sure I'm sure I would assert that maybe 30% of people listening right now don't want to tell their partner their financial situation because they're deeply embarrassed or shameful to the point that they think their partner might leave, like them less, be less attracted to them if they really knew the truth.
我完全同意。
I totally agree.
我完全同意。
I totally agree.
我们对钱的羞耻感真是让人难以置信，尤其是年轻男生手头紧的时候。
It's crazy how much shame we have around money, and it's a young guy not having enough.
还有年轻女生背了一万八千美元的信用卡债。
It's a young woman who has $18,000 of credit card debt.
这种情况遍布各个年龄段。
It's all over the spectrum.
第二点是，如果你想谈钱，那就直接谈。
That's the second point, which is if you want to talk about money, talk about money.
别等着伴侣先开口。
Don't wait for your partner to do it.
哪怕你觉得尴尬或难为情，也要自己主动提出来。
Bring it up yourself even if you feel embarrassed or ashamed.
明白吗？
Okay?
如果你打算和这个人共度一生，那就必须能谈这些，因为你们往后一辈子还会聊更多私密敏感的话题。
If you're planning to make a life with this partner, you got to be able to talk about this because you're going to be talking about a lot of other personal sensitive things over the course of your life.
第二点，还有什么比一个人说‘我二十多岁的时候搬来城市’更吸引人的呢？
The second thing is what could be more attractive than somebody saying, you know, when I was in my twenties, I moved to the city.
那时候我经常出去玩，花了很多钱，也没怎么管住自己。
I spent a lot of money going out, and I wasn't super responsible.
信用卡欠了一大笔债。
I racked up a lot of credit card debt.
现在已经从一万八还到了六千。
I've paid it down from 18,000 to 6,000.
明年就能还清了，我也清楚自己绝不会再回到那种状态。
It's gonna be paid off next year, and I just know that I'm never going back there again.
天哪。
Oh my god.
能坦诚自己做过的事，有合理的理由，最重要的是还有明确的计划——这简直太有魅力了。
Someone who acknowledges what they did, has a good reason for it, and then most importantly has a plan, huge turn on.
所以我恳请大家明白，有钱或没钱，并不能决定一个人是好是坏。
So what I'm begging all of us to do is to realize just because you have more or less money does not make you a better or worse person.
我想消除那种羞耻感，因为我们每个人都有值得羞愧的事，但把它们藏起来、躲进黑暗里，并不能解决问题。
I wanna take shame away because we all have something that we are ashamed of, but not talking about it and putting it in the corner in the darkness, that doesn't solve it.
所以我特别喜欢聊那些最禁忌的话题。
That's why I love talking about the most taboo of taboo subjects.
钱、性别、婚前协议、约会。
Money, gender, prenups, dating.
这些事，根本没人敢提。
These are things that nobody's talking about.
当你听到播客里的夫妻说，他们结婚十五年了，却从来没认真谈过一次钱，我希望你和所有观众都能受到启发——有些事根本不必觉得丢人，也不必藏在暗处。
So when you hear couples on the podcast and they're talking about being married for fifteen years and they've never actually had one conversation about money, I want you and everyone watching to be inspired because stuff doesn't have to be shameful and doesn't have to be kept in the dark.
那你对婚前协议怎么看？
What do you think about prenups then?
你觉得每对情侣都该签吗？
Do you think they are a good thing for all couples?
你觉得每对情侣都应该签婚前协议吗？
Do you think all couples should initiate a prenup?
没必要。
No.
不是每个人都需要。
No.
不是所有情侣都必须签。
Not all couples.
有些情侣确实应该签一份。
There are some couples who should have one.
我和我妻子就签了。
My wife and I have one.
我们当时走了一遍整个流程。
So we went through this process.
如果一方或双方在结婚前拥有相当可观的个人财产，那就该考虑签婚前协议。
And who should get a prenup is if one or both partners are bringing substantial premarital assets to the marriage.
也就是说，他们结婚时手头有大笔投资组合、生意、出租房产或者房子。
Meaning, they get married, they have a large investment portfolio, a business, rental property, or a house.
像这种情况才该签婚前协议，但大多数人其实没必要。
Like, you should have a prenup, but most people should not.
因为大多数人结婚时，并没有什么大额资产。
Because when most people get married, they don't have substantial assets.
那如果对方反悔了怎么办？
What if your partner turns around?
要是我对伴侣说：宝贝，拉米特说咱得去签个婚前协议。
If I turn to my partner, I say, babe, Ramit told me to go get a prenup.
是的。
Yeah.
她肯定会说：绝对不行。
And she goes, absolutely not.
那这种开场白可不太合适。
Well, that's not a good introduction.
我不会这么说。
I wouldn't say that.
不过，你要是拿我当挡箭牌，我也无所谓。
Although, I don't mind if you throw me under the bus.
哎，这个叫拉米特的人，他说过这么一句话。
Oh, this guy, Ramit, he said this thing.
行吧。
Fine.
怎么开口提这事，是一门艺术。
How to bring it up is an art.
所以我当初在考虑签婚前协议的时候，特意向很多朋友请教了意见。
So when I was deciding on a prenup, I asked for lots of advice from lots of friends.
网上流传的那些建议，尤其是其中一些，其实并不怎么样。
And some of the advice out there, especially online, is not great.
最常见的建议之一，就是把责任推给你的律师。
One of the most common pieces of advice is blame it on your lawyer.
我觉得你得现实一点。
I'm like, get real.
你马上就要和伴侣共度一生了，连这件事都做不到坦诚吗？
You're about to build a life with your partner, and you can't be honest about this thing?
从大局来看，这其实是个很小的问题。
This, in the grand scheme, is a minor topic.
所以我来告诉你，我当时是怎么跟我妻子说的。
So I'll tell you exactly what I said to my wife.
我们坐下来，我对她说：我想跟你谈件事。
We sat down, and we I said, I want to talk to you about something.
你知道，因为我做生意时间长，运气不错，也够努力，把事业一点一点做起来了，我对自己的成就和积累感到非常自豪。
You know that because of how long I've been in business, I've been very lucky, I've been fortunate, I worked hard, I've built this business up, and I'm really proud of what I've accomplished and saved.
你也了解我的生活方式。
And you also know my lifestyle.
我可没开着兰博基尼满街跑。
I don't drive around in a Lamborghini.
我喜欢旅行。
I like to travel.
我喜欢穿得体面，也喜欢存钱。
I like to wear nice clothes, and I like to save money.
在我们关系越来越近、准备结婚的时候，谈一谈婚前协议对我来说很重要。
And it's important to me that as we are getting closer in our relationship to getting married that we talk about a prenup.
我当时心跳得厉害。
And my heart was pounding.
我早就计划好了。
I had planned it.
我反复想过这件事。
I had thought about it.
我跟很多人聊过这个话题。
I had talked to so many people.
我知道，我得承担起这份责任。
What I knew is I wanted to take responsibility.
这不是律师想让我签的。
It's not some lawyer that wants it.
是我自己想的。
It's me.
对我来说很重要。
It's important to me.
我想提这个事，也想让我老婆知道，我结婚后不会突然变个人，把咱们的钱全花光。
I wanted to bring up the topic, and I wanted to reassure my wife that I'm not gonna change overnight when we get married into someone who's blowing all of our money.
主要是因为我打拼出来的这份事业。
It's just important because of the business that I built.
她回应的时候，我一直在想，她会怎么回答呢？
In her response, I was like, like, how is she gonna respond?
提婚前协议这事儿，本来就挺敏感的。
Because bringing up prenup is very fraught.
她真的特别好。
She's the best.
她说，好的。
She said, okay.
我没想到会这样，但我愿意多了解一下。
I wasn't expecting that, but I'm willing to learn more about it.
这已经是我能想到的最好的回应了。
That's as good of a response as I could have hoped.
于是我们开始了这一系列的对话。
So we started the series of conversations.
我们都找了律师。
We both had lawyers.
一开始还挺顺利的，直到后来出了问题。
It was going well at first until it wasn't.
我们讨论的那些数字，对我来说简直高得离谱。
And we were talking about numbers that to me seemed astronomical.
我开始感到不满。
I started to feel resentful.
她觉得没人认真听她说。
She didn't feel listened to.
她觉得没人真正理解她。
She didn't feel heard.
她开始感到不满。
She started to feel resentful.
那些对话简直太难了。
And these conversations were were, like, so difficult.
我觉得那是我们关系中最难熬的几次谈话之一。
I would say they were some of the most difficult conversations of our relationship.
有一回，她说：我们该去找个心理咨询师了，这样谈下去不行。
At one point, she said, we should go see a therapist because these conversations are not good.
我当时就说：你说得对。
And I was like, you're right.
于是我们就去看了心理咨询师。
So we went to see a therapist.
我们坐在治疗师的办公室里。
We sat in that therapist's office.
我到现在还记得。
I still remember.
治疗师问了我们一大堆问题，比如你怎么看待钱？
Therapist asked us a bunch of questions, including how do you see money?
她然后转向了我。
And she turned to me.
我当时心想，我怎么看钱？
I was like, how do I see money?
增长。
Growth.
我眼前仿佛真能看到数字在飘。
I could literally see numbers floating in front of my eyes.
我骨子里那个追求效率的人，立刻想到了七十二法则。
The Optimizer in me was talking about the rule of 72.
那简直太明显了。
It was, like, so obvious.
这问题再明显不过了。
What an obvious question.
然后她转向我妻子，问你怎么看待钱？
Then she turns to my wife, how do you see money?
她说，安全。
And she said, safety.
我说，什么？
I said, what?
你再说一遍，安全？
Say safety.
对我来说，这就像说炭一样。
To me, that was like saying charcoal.
这两个词根本扯不上关系。
Like, the two words don't relate at all.
但这件事让我们开始意识到，我们对钱的看法完全不同。
But it started us on a new path of realizing that we were seeing money completely differently.
就在那时，我意识到真希望有更多夫妻能私下聊聊钱的问题。
And that was exactly when I realized I wish there were other couples talking about money from behind closed doors.
这正是我做播客和Netflix节目的初衷——不是光说，而是让观众看到真实夫妻是怎么处理金钱的。
That exactly was the genesis of me doing my podcast and my Netflix show to show people, not just tell them, but to show them how real couples deal with money.
你们之间最大的分歧是什么？
What was the resistance between you two?
更具体点说，她想要的财务安排和你想要的不一样？
In sort of more specific terms, she she wanted a different arrangement to the one that you wanted?
是的。
Yeah.
就是具体的条款不同。
The terms
婚前协议里的条款特别专业。
are are super technical in prenups.
婚前协议里头有各种各样的条款和细节，比如，如果你们六个月后分开了怎么办？
It's so with a prenup, you have a variety of different rules or technicalities, which would be like, what if you separate in six months?
如果二十五年后分开，但你们有孩子呢？
What if you separate in twenty five years, but there are children involved?
房子归谁？
Who gets the house?
如果你们有一套房子怎么办？
What if you have a house?
如果你们有两套房子呢？
What if you have two houses?
如果你们的共同投资有这么多，但每个人名下的个人投资又有这么多，该怎么算？
What if you have this much in your joint investment, but each of you has this much in individual investment?
所以问题不只是数字本身。
And so what happens is it's not even just the numbers themselves.
关键是这个过程本身就被设计成对立的。
It's the fact that the process is set up to be adversarial.
对。
Mhmm.
所以他们请了律师。
So they have a lawyer.
我们也请了律师。
We have a lawyer.
遇到这种事，我们得通过律师沟通，而平时你直接跟未婚夫或者女朋友说就行了。
We're communicating through lawyers when it comes to this topic when normally you're just talking to your fiance or your girlfriend.
而且，怎么跟律师打交道也是一门学问。
And there's an art to also managing the lawyers.
你看，律师总想把所有风险都堵上。
See, the lawyers want there's nothing bad.
我们请的律师特别棒。
We had great lawyers.
我对他们很满意。
I'm happy with them.
律师的职责就是把每一个可能的情况都仔细检查一遍，确保万无一失。
But lawyers' job is to look over every freaking contingency and make sure that nothing is left to chance.
如果你正在考虑签婚前协议，记住一点：你要管好你的律师，但真正重要的是和伴侣达成共识，毕竟你们要一起过一辈子。
And I think a good reminder for anyone considering a prenup is to remember, you manage your lawyers, and your job is to come to an agreement with your partner for the rest of your life.
所以有时候，你可以大方一点。
So sometimes you can be generous.
在一些细节上适当让步是可以的，只要别忘了最重要的目标。
You can be willing to let up on a few things here and there as long as you are looking at the north star.
我们是要一起走下去的。
We're going to be together.
我们希望婚前的财产能得到保障。
We want these premarital assets to be protected.
万一将来出了问题，我们也希望彼此都能接受这个安排。
And in case something goes wrong, we both want to feel good about what the arrangement is.
根据婚姻统计数据，你们最终分手的概率大概有六成左右。
And there is a 60 odd percent chance that you will break up if you look at the marriage statistics.
这些数据有点偏差。
Well, those statistics are a little skewed.
里面包含了二婚的情况。
That includes second marriages.
还包括了各种不同的社会经济背景，所有人的情况都混在一起了。
That also includes all different socioeconomic, all everybody else.
如果细分一下，比如只看拥有学士学位，或者更高学历的人群，离婚率会低很多。
If you break it down, for example, just by having a bachelor's degree or certainly an advanced degree, that goes way down.
初婚的离婚率也低得多。
First marriage goes down.
事实上，几十年来离婚率一直在下降。
And in fact, the divorce rate has been decreasing for decades.
所以那个经常被提起的60%，其实并不准确，但不管具体数字是多少，更重要的是，你得同时考虑事情怎么才能顺利，也要想想万一出问题怎么办。
So this 60% thing that's kinda tossed around, not quite accurate, but whatever the statistic is, what's more important is if you should always think about how can things go right and also how can they go wrong.
说到钱的问题，我们往往只顾着想其中一方面。
And I think with money, lot of times, we only think about one or the other.
我们买房子，却从不问自己：如果其中一人失业了怎么办？
We buy a house, never asking ourselves, like, what if one of us loses our job?
我们结婚时，也从不考虑：如果我们分手了怎么办？
And we get married without ever asking, like, what if we separate?
所以你得把两种情况都考虑进去。
So you wanna be able to play both.
如果事情进展得特别顺利，会怎么样？如果事情搞砸了，又会怎么样？
What happens if things go right, incredibly right, and what happens if things go wrong?
咱们得提前做个计划。
Let's make a plan.
那还有哪些其他警示信号呢？
What are the other red flags then?
我们提到的第一个是，他们不愿意谈钱。
We mentioned the first being they don't wanna talk about money.
啊，他们有个专门管钱的人。
Ah, they have a money guy.
找人管钱这种事太普遍了。
A money guy is so common.
人人都在说，哦，我有个管钱的。
Everybody talks about, oh, I have this money guy.
你那个管钱的，很可能是个终身寿险销售，每年收你1.25%的资产管理费。
Your money guy is probably a whole life insurance salesman charging you 1.25% AUM.
让我解释一下这到底是什么意思。
Let me explain what that means.
很多美国人根本不想学基本的理财知识，所以就请了个财务顾问。
So many people in America do not want to learn the basics of money, and so they hire a financial adviser.
我不是反对财务顾问这个职业本身，但他们常说的这个‘管钱的’，通常是指按资产比例收费的人。
Now I don't have anything against financial advisers in general, but a money guy that they're typically referring to is someone who charges them a percentage of their assets.
比如我有一百万美元的投资组合，他们可能会收我1%的费用。
So if I have a $100,000 portfolio, they'll charge or let's say a million dollar portfolio, I might be paying one percent.
1%听起来不多，但你要是真算一笔账，就会发现这辈子的投资收益，差不多有28%都交给了手续费。
Now 1% doesn't sound like a lot, but if you actually run the math, you will pay about 28% of your lifetime investment returns in fees.
这可不是十块或一百块的事。
That's not $10 or a $100.
这可是几万甚至几十万美元。
That's tens of thousands or sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars.
如果有人请顾问，还按资产比例付费，那就有问题了。
So it's a red flag if someone has an adviser that they're paying a percentage based fee to.
我更希望你按小时或项目收费，而不是按比例。
I would much rather you pay an hourly or project or that type of fee to.
明白吗？
K?
他们太抠门了。
They're cheap.
我可以帮很多人，但帮不了太抠门的人。
I can help a lot of people, but I can't help cheap.
价格便宜，永远是他们最先考虑、也是最后坚持的条件。
Cheap is cost is the first and last thing they always consider.
所以你可能会回家。
So you might come home.
你开心得不得了。
You're so happy.
天哪。
Oh my gosh.
你看我给孩子们买的这个漂亮东西。
Look at this beautiful thing I got for the kids.
这个花了多少钱？
How much was that?
它一出现，整个房间的气氛都被毁了。
And it just sucks the life out of every room.
抠门的人总是盯着价格。
Cheap people are obsessed with cost.
抠门的人很少意识到自己对家人造成了多大影响，而且他们几乎不可能改变。
Cheap people rarely recognize the effect they are having on their loved ones, and cheap people find it very, very difficult to change.
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