Snapchat首席执行官：打造1300亿美元公司的精确公式！我拒绝了马克·扎克伯格的30亿美元报价！当你有这种感觉时，就该辞职了！

所以它不会消失。

So it doesn't go away.

你可以截图。

You can take a screenshot.

我觉得其中一个重要的发明，也是为什么我觉得得到这个反馈很重要。

And I think one of the big inventions and that's why I think it's so important to get this feedback.

那年夏天晚些时候，我和Bobby在我爸爸的房子里工作，我们发明了一种方法来检测是否有人截了图。

One of the big inventions that we made later that summer when Bobby and I were working out of my dad's house, we invented a way to detect if someone had taken a screenshot.

然后我们会发一个小通知说，嘿，你知道，你的朋友截了图。

And so we would send a little notification back that said, Hey, you know, your friend took a screenshot.

我觉得这也是这个服务有趣的一部分，你可以设置内容在你朋友那里显示多久，但如果他们想保存，他们可以截图，但你会知道他们保存了。

And I think that was part of what made the service fun, that you could set how long it would appear for your friend, but if they wanted to save it, they could take a screenshot, but you would know that they saved it.

我觉得这是产品早期的一个反馈循环，帮助人们在使用图片消息时感到舒适。

And I think that was one of the early feedback loops of the product that helped make people feel comfortable using it for picture messaging.

从你和Reggie那次关于照片消失的对话，到你意识到Snapchat会火起来，这中间经历了多长时间？

How long was that journey between you having that conversation with Reggie about wanting photos to disappear and the moment when you knew Snapchat was going be a big deal?

那这段时间有多长呢？

Like, how long is that gap?

我觉得大概要到接下来的那个学年吧。

I would say it took until maybe certainly the following school year for me.

所以那个夏天，我和Bobby去了我爸爸家，花了很多时间在服务上，把它改名为Snapchat，也收到了很多反馈。

So over that summer, Bobby and I went to my dad's house, worked a lot on the service, renamed it Snapchat, got a lot of feedback.

当我们和朋友一起用的时候，大家都说，嘿，能不能加个标题？

When we were using it with our friends, everyone wanted like, hey, can I add a caption?

能不能在上面画画？

Can draw on it?

因为最初版本就是一张照片。

Because in the original version, was just a photo.

但因为大家，就是我们那个朋友圈子，用它来交流，所以我们需要加上标题和画画这些功能。

But because people were using just our friend group using it to communicate, We needed to add things like captions and drawing.

所以我觉得Snapchat是在2011年9月左右在App Store上线的。

So I think the Snapchat launched in the App Store about September 2011.

可能直到那年秋末，或者甚至到2012年初，我记得我坐在教室后面，我们有一个快照计数器，用来统计所有发送过的快照总数。

And it probably wasn't until late that fall maybe or even into the following beginning of twenty twelve that I was I remember sitting in the back of my classroom, and we had a snap counter that would count the total number of snaps ever sent.

早期的时候，大概就是几百或一千左右。

In the early days, was like hundreds or 1,000 or whatever.

我刷新页面，数字都不带变的。

And I'd refresh the page, and the number wouldn't change.

但到了2012年初，每次我刷新快照计数器页面，数字都会往上涨，而且一次跳一两下，或者跳十下。

But by that time, by the beginning of twenty twelve, every time I refreshed the Snap counter page, the number would go up, and it would jump by one or two or 10.

所以很明显，大家都在用这个服务，在互相交流。

So it was clear that people were using the service and communicating.

那时候我就觉得，哎呀，这挺有意思的。

And that's when I was like, oh, this is fun.

不只是我们和朋友们喜欢用，还有更多人在用呢。

Not only are we loving it with our friends, but there's more people using it too.

你刚才提到，你利用身边的人，也就是你的朋友们，来获取反馈，决定接下来该加什么功能。

One of the things you said there is that you were using people around you, your friends, to give you feedback on what features you should add next.

你说人们想在上面写字，还想加字幕。

You said people wanted to write on it and they wanted to add captions.

作为创始人，这肯定很难，因为你总是收到很多反馈，要求你不断改变很多东西。

As a founder, that must be quite hard because you're getting lots of feedback to change lots of things all the time.

你怎么知道哪些反馈是好的、值得采纳的，哪些是干扰或者不好的反馈呢？

How do you know what to filter as good feedback that you'll implement versus a distraction or bad feedback?

你有没有用过什么框架来筛选？

Is there a framework at all that you've had to deploy?

我觉得所有反馈都是好的。

So I think all feedback is good feedback.

所有反馈都有价值。

All feedback is valuable.

关键是你怎么处理这些反馈。

I think what you do with it is what matters.

比如说，就拿字幕工具的使用来说吧。

So for example, let's take the use of the caption tool, for example.

你知道，我们本来可以加一个特别笨重的字幕工具，用起来特别费劲，就像社交媒体那样，在照片底部加字幕，点一下，然后加标签什么的。

You know, we could have added a super clunky caption tool that took forever to use that was like, you know, like social media, where you add the caption at the bottom of the photo and tap it and hashtile and stuff.

我们决定实现字幕的方式，是为了让人们更容易交流，你只需要在拍完照片后点一下照片就行了。

The way that we decided to implement captions to make it easier for people to communicate is all you have to do is tap on the photo right after you took it.

所以你就拍，拍完照片，点一下。

So you'd snap, take the photo, tap.

键盘就会弹出来。

The keyboard would pop up.

有一个小字幕栏，你知道那个字幕栏，它还能让你看到后面的照片，而不是像那种贴在照片下面的。

There was a little caption bar, you know the caption bar well, you know, that still allowed you to see the photo behind it instead of it being sort of attached to the photo below it.

它就在照片上面。

It was right on top of the photo.

然后你一按回车，就能跳到选择要发送给哪些朋友的页面。

And then as soon as you hit enter, you could jump to the page where you select which friends you wanted to send it to.

所以我觉得，比听到“嘿，我想要一个加字幕或表达更多内容的方式”这种反馈更重要的，是我们如何实现这个反馈，并设计出非常快速易用的东西，这就是为什么那个黑色字幕栏现在，我觉得，已经成为 Snapchat 的代名词，并且闻名世界。

So I think what was more important than hearing feedback of, hey, I want a way to add a caption or express more on the Snap, the way that we implemented that feedback and designed something really fast and easy to use is why that black bar caption is now, I think, synonymous with Snapchat and is well known around the world.

所以从想法到第一次融资，大概花了一年时间？

So it was a year from the idea to the day when you raised capital for the first time, roughly?

对，差不多。

Yeah, more or less.

那你跟我讲讲这个过程。

And talk me through that.

你们融了多少钱？

So how much did you raise?

你们是怎么去融资的？

How did you go about raising the capital?

那时候业务怎么样，用户和下载量是多少？

And what was the business like at that time in terms of users and downloads?

嗯，具体用户数据我记不太清了。

Yeah, I don't remember the exact user statistics.

但对我们特别有帮助的是，我们有一年的数据。

But what was really, really helpful is that we had about a year of data.

如果你还记得那时候，有很多应用就像昙花一现一样。

So if you remember back then, there were a lot of apps that were sort of like a flash in the pan.

就是，它们会很快火起来，然后又慢慢消失。

Like, they would get popular really, really quickly and then sort of fade away.

所以风险投资者会涌入这些应用，然后应用火一阵子，接着就淡出了。

And so venture investors would kind of jump into these apps, and then the apps would get really popular and then kind of fade.

所以当我们融资的时候，有一个很大的优势就是我们有一整年的数据，可以证明：当人们开始用这个产品和朋友聊天时，他们会一直用下去，因为它真的很有趣，而且比短信沟通更好。

And so when we were raising money, one of the things that really helped us is we had a year's worth of data to basically show, hey, when people start using this product to talk to their friends, they keep doing it because it's really fun and it's better than text message based communication.

视觉沟通比文字沟通有趣得多，也更强大、更有表现力。

Visual communication is way more fun, more powerful, more expressive than text based communication.

而且一旦人们学会了怎么用，他们就会持续使用。

And people use it consistently once they learn how.

这对那些担心“这会不会又是一个昙花一现的服务”的投资者来说，非常重要。

And that was really important to the investors who were worried, is this just another flash in the pan type service?

所以我们当时真的就是，我记得大概就三到五页幻灯片，全是数据。

So we really just led I think we had like three, maybe five slides of just the data.

你还记得早期从投资人那里得到的反馈吗？

Do you remember feedback you got from investors at that early stage?

我觉得这很重要，因为所有创始人都会收到那种邮件，告诉你你的想法行不通。

I think this is important because all founders are going to get the email that tells them that they're not onto something.

对，我觉得最大的反馈就是，嘿，这看起来像是那些大型科技公司会直接抄袭的东西。

Yeah, I think the biggest piece of feedback was just like, hey, this seems like something that these really big, powerful tech companies are just going to copy.

而且他们很难竞争，所以我们不太确定要不要投资一个跟这些大公司对着干的项目。

And they're really tough to compete with, so we're not really sure we want to invest in something that's going up against these really, really big, powerful tech companies.

这确实有点道理。

I mean, there's some wisdom in that.

那确实很有远见。

Certainly a lot of foresight in that one.

因为不管怎样，做社交网络应用的成功率都极低。

Because the odds anyway of building a social networking app are extremely low.

我们开始录音之前就说过，你得有点近乎妄想才能觉得自己能做到。

It's we were saying before we started recording that you've got to be almost like delusional to think that you can.

我觉得那时候也是，Snapchat是在Facebook、Twitter、Instagram这些之后才出现的，你想想看。

I think at that time too, Snapchat came last after Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, you name it.

这些服务全都先出来了。

All of those services had come first.

而且我觉得，那时候大家还相信网络效应意味着你没法竞争。

And I think the idea that And that was still at the time when people believed that network effects meant that you couldn't compete.

谁的网络最大，谁就赢。

Whoever has the biggest network is going to win.

其他人根本没法竞争。

No one else is going be able to compete.

所以当时就有这种担心，哎呀，如果这些竞争对手大得多，而且他们有网络效应，你怎么可能成长起来去竞争呢？

And so I think there was that concern that, oh, if these other competitors are much bigger and they have network effects, how are you ever going to grow and compete?

所以那是个很大的反馈。

So that was a big piece of feedback.

然后还有另一群人，他们其实不太明白这个服务是干嘛的，所以也就不太感兴趣。

And then I think there was just a whole other group of people who didn't really understand what the service was and so weren't that interested.

但是Lightspeed的Jeremy主动联系了我们。

But Jeremy at Lightspeed reached out.

他的头像照片是他和奥巴马的合影。

His profile picture was a photo of him with Obama.

我当时就想，哦，好吧。

And I was like, oh, Okay.

那肯定是个真人物。

Must be like a real.

现在有了AI，你永远不知道真假。

Now with AI, you never know.

但那时候，就觉得，好吧，肯定是真的。

But back then, it's like, Okay, must be legit.

所以我们就和他们见了面。

So we met up with them.

而且他的一个合伙人，猜猜怎么着，他女儿用Snapchat，而且特别喜欢。

And one of his partners, guess his daughter used Snapchat and loved Snapchat.

所以他们理解这个服务，知道它是怎么回事，也知道她是怎么和朋友一起用的。

And so they understood the service and what it was about and how she was using it with her friends.

所以他们最终投资了48.5万美元，估值是425万美元。

And so they ended up investing 4 and $85,000 at a $4,250,000 valuation.

事后看来，这真是一笔划算的交易。

What a fucking deal in hindsight.

你筹到那笔钱的时候，有多少用户？

How many users did you have at the time when you raised that capital?

我猜大概有10万左右吧。

I would have guessed about 100,000 or something like that.

估值大约是400万美元？

And the valuation was $4,000,000 roughly?

425万，是的。

4.25, yeah.

在头一年，直到你筹到那笔钱之前，你有没有怀疑过Snapchat会成功？

In that first year up until the point that you raised that money, did you ever doubt that Snapchat was going to work?

我觉得要更好地理解这个问题，你几乎得给它加上一个目标或抱负。

And I guess to understand the question a bit more, you almost have to add a goal or ambition to it.

所以我猜你希望它成为一家公司，也觉得它能成为一家公司。

So I'm presuming you wanted it to be and thought it could be a company.

你有没有怀疑过它不会成为一家公司？

Did you ever doubt that it would be?

第一年里有没有发生过什么事？

Was there anything that ever happened in that first year?

有一次我们不小心把Snapchat的基础设施搞垮了，整整三天。

There was one moment where we accidentally took down the Snapchat infrastructure for three days.

所以服务完全停了三天。

So the service stopped working entirely for three days.

其实是有东西坏了，我们花了三天才修好。

Actually, something broke, and it took us three days to fix it.

当时我们觉得，完了。

And we were like, we're done.

我是说，我们该怎么办？

I mean, what are we going to do?

服务已经宕机三天了。

The service has been down for three days.

这是个通讯服务，所以人们一直没法跟朋友聊天。

It's a messaging service, so people haven't been able to talk to their friends.

还会有人用吗？

Like, is anyone going to use it?

结果我们一恢复，大家又开始用了。

And when we turned it back on, people just started using it again.

这让我们更加确信，我们确实做出了一个大家真心喜欢用的产品。

And that gave us a lot more conviction in that we had a product that people really just loved using.

它是怎么增长起来的，为什么能增长？

How and why was it growing?

是靠营销活动，还是自然增长？

Was it a marketing campaign, or was it organic?

我们唯一看到有效的方式就是朋友之间互相使用，然后告诉他们的朋友，并且想学会怎么用。

The only thing that we ever saw work was friends using it with friends, telling their friends about it, and wanting to learn how to use it.

因为用照片交流在当时是个新鲜事。

Because communicating with photos was a new thing.

我的意思是，之前人们没有用图片聊过天。

I mean, people hadn't been talking with pictures before.

甚至人们对照片的看法都不一样。

Even the way people thought about photos.

那时候，照片是用来保存珍贵时刻的，对吧？

It was like a photo is for saving a precious moment, right?

就像那种家庭合影一样。

Like that's or like a family photo.

当时人们真的是这么看待照片的。

Like that's really how people were thinking about photos at the time.

那时候刚从数码相机时代过来，就是那种把照片插到电脑里上传的年代。

You weren't able like that was just coming out of the digital camera, like plug it into your computer and upload the photos era.

所以我觉得，这其实是一个巨大的行为转变，大家开始意识到，哇，一张图真的胜过千言万语。

So there was this massive, I think, behavioral change of people realizing like, wow, like, no, a picture is worth a thousand words.

而且现在我可以随时用手机拍下来，几百毫秒就能发给朋友，我们可以用图片来聊天，而不只是用图片来保存回忆。

And now that I can take it instantly on my phone and send it with my friend in a couple hundred milliseconds, we can talk with pictures instead of just use pictures to save memories.

我觉得我们真的不太记得这些了。

I don't think we really remember that.

是不是很疯狂，我们居然都不记得了？

Isn't that crazy that we don't remember?

其实也没过多久。

It wasn't that long ago.

我知道，但我们就是忘了。

I know, but we just don't remember.

就像你刚才说的，我当时就想，天哪。

Like, as you were saying, I was like, fuck.

以前你根本没法给朋友发一张照片。

You couldn't, like, send a photo to your friend.

用来聊天。

To talk.

我当时还在想，那时候有什么应用能让我这么做，结果发现真的没有。

I was like, I was still not trying to think of the app that I could have used back then to do that, and there just, like, isn't one.

不过现在这么说，显得我很老。

But now I'm dating myself.

你懂吧？

You know?

太糟糕了。

It's terrible.

对。

Yes.

确实疯狂。

It's crazy.

我们忘了这一点，因为现在每个应用里都太常见了。

We we forget that because it's so commonplace now in every app.

你知道吗，你可以，而且我猜他们最终是从你那里得到的，从你那里抄来的。

You know, you can and I guess they they ultimately got that from you, copied that from you.

我有一张早期的照片。

I've got this photo from the early days.

你还记得这张照片吗？

Do you remember this photo?

哦，这太棒了。

Oh, this is awesome.

这张照片。

This picture.

这太棒了。

This is great.

这是什么照片？

What is this picture?

你在哪里？

Where are you?

你在干什么？

What are you doing?

那是谁？

Who is that?

嗯，这其实是我们第一个办公室，挺不错的。

Well, this was actually our first office, which was great.

它叫威尼斯蓝屋，地址是海滨步道523号。

It was called the Blue House in Venice, 523 Oceanfront Walk.

实际上，当时在我爸家里，事情已经到了一个临界点。

And actually, things sort of had reached a breaking point on my dad's house.

我记得有七八个人住在那里。

Think there were seven or eight of us living there.

有一天晚上，我当时的女朋友，也就是现在的妻子，走进来，看到我们一个队友睡在沙发上，盖着她买给他的圣诞毯子。

One night, girlfriend at the time, now wife, came in, and one of our teammates was sleeping on the couch with a blanket she had bought him for Christmas.

她就说，我觉得我们在这里已经受够了。

And she was just like, I think we've had enough here.

所以我们不得不找个办公室搬出去。

So we had to get an office and move out.

我们去威尼斯吃晚饭的时候，路过一栋老蓝房子，上面挂着出租的牌子。

And we were going to dinner in Venice, we walked past this old blue house, and it had a for lease sign on.

我们当时就想，哇，这太酷了。

And we were like, wow, this would be wild.

我们可以在威尼斯海滨步道的海滩上有个办公室。

We could have an office on the beach on the Venice Boardwalk.

给他们打个电话吧。

Let's call them.

然后我们就打了。

And we called them.

他们每平方英尺的租金要价高得离谱。

They wanted a crazy amount per square foot in rent.

我们当时根本付不起。

We couldn't afford it at the time.

但我们最终还是多等了一段时间，成功把租金谈下来不少，然后搬进了蓝屋。

But we ultimately waited a bit longer and were able to negotiate that down quite a bit and moved in to the Blue House.

我觉得蓝屋最好的地方在于，威尼斯海滩步道是加州最受欢迎的旅游景点之一，甚至可能是全世界最受欢迎的。

And I think the best thing about the Blue House was that the Venice Boardwalk is one of the most popular tourist destinations in California, maybe even in the world.

我是说，每年有超过一千万人来威尼斯海滩步道。

I mean, it's more than 10,000,000 people a year come to the Venice Boardwalk.

而且我们外面挂了一个大大的幽灵标志，或者说大的应用图标。

And we had a big ghost logo or big app icon outside.

然后一整天都有人过来跟我们聊这个应用，给我们反馈，或者需要帮忙处理他们的账户。

And all day long, people would come up and talk to us about the app give us feedback or need help with their account.

所以我们整天都沉浸在来自世界各地的Snapchat用户中，他们都想过来跟我们聊聊。

And so we were just immersed in people from all over the world who were using Snapchat and wanted to come talk to us about it.

后来这确实有点过了，但一开始，能就在步道上，身边有这么多人，感觉真是太棒了。

Ultimately, it became like a little too much, but in the beginning, it was just so amazing to be right there on the boardwalk with so many people.

那蓝屋能容纳多少人呢？

And so how many people could fit into the Blue House?

我觉得最多的时候大概二十多个人吧。

I think at max capacity, it was 20 something.

我们搬出去的时候大概有二十多个人，可能三十个。

I think we were 20 something people by the time we moved out, maybe 30.

确实挺挤的，桌子底下都能跟人碰脚。

It was pretty cramp I mean, was playing footsie with people under the table.

我们挤得不行。

We were pretty smushed.

那时候你们有多少用户？

And how many users did you have at that time?

能有人专门跑到滨海大道来找你们聊天，你们肯定挺火的。

For people to be coming up on the Broadwalk and having conversations, you must have been pretty popular.

那时候估计得有上百万了吧，我猜。

At that point, it must have been millions, I would guess.

那时候你肯定已经辍学了吧？

And you've dropped out of university by that point, obviously?

跟我讲讲那个决定吧，因为我知道应用在增长，一切都在发展，但要从一所名校退学，肯定不是个轻松的决定。

Tell me about that decision because that's not I know the app's growing and everything, but to drop out of a prestigious university can't be a super easy decision.

我真的觉得我别无选择。

I I really felt I had no choice.

我的学分不够，没法毕业。

I didn't have enough credits to graduate.

我当时读的是项目设计专业，属于工程类的。

I mean, was doing the project design program, the engineering program.

我还有好多课要修完。

I had a lot more classes that I had to finish.

最后，我们从投资者那里筹到了48.5万美元。

And ultimately, we'd raised $485,000 from investors.

我整天都在忙着应付那些课，我记得当时修了大概20个学分，还得兼顾我们的生意。

And I was spending all day trying to pass these I was taking, I think, 20 credits at the time or something and trying to work on our business.

我真的没法同时兼顾这两件事。

I just couldn't do both at the same time.

所以我就想，希望有一天我能回去。

So I was like, hopefully one day I'll be able to go back.

我后来确实回去了，2018年拿到了学位，感觉特别棒。

I actually did end up going back and got my degree in 2018, was awesome.

但当时我真的没法同时兼顾两件事。

But I just couldn't do both at the same time.

你为什么回去拿学位？

Why did you go back and get your degree?

我真的不想以后跟孩子们争论这个，你懂我意思吧？

I really did not want to have that debate with our kids where they're like you know what I mean?

他们会说，爸，你懂的，对吧？

Where they're like, but dad, like, you what I mean?

你当时退学了。

Like, you dropped out.

你连学位都没有。

You don't have a degree.

比如说，我为什么需要学位？

Like, why do I need one?

你知道，我觉得大学确实很有价值。

You know, I think colleges can be really valuable.

不是每个人都适合，但它对我的生活影响很大。

It's not for everybody, but it made a huge impact in my life.

所以我想向孩子们展示这有多重要。

So I wanted to be able to show how important that is to our kids.

我早些时候在想，当我们谈论大学的时候。

I was thinking earlier when we were talking about collegeuniversity.

你上大学的时候，世界和现在不一样了。

The world was different when you went to university and college.

你现在有四个男孩。

And you've got these four boys now.

最大的，我想，已经14岁了。

The oldest, I think, is 14 years old.

如果他想像爸爸一样，比如说想走你的老路，那根据现在这个世界的情况，你会建议他在21岁之前学点什么别的吗？

If he wants to be like dad, say he wanted to follow in your footsteps, is there anything else based on how the world is currently that you'd be advising him to learn before the age of like 21?

如果他想像爸爸一样，那是他的决定的话，你现在会推荐他学哪些科目或者拿什么学位吗？

Is are there any topics or degrees that you would be pushing him towards now if he wanted to be like dad, if that was his decision?

我觉得现在最重要的事情之一就是培养创造力。

I think one of the most important things today is really nurturing creativity.

我是说，我觉得创造力真的是关键因素，尤其是在人工智能时代，对吧？

I mean, I think creativity is really the X factor, certainly in the age of AI, right?

所以我觉得培养创造力，找到发展这些技能的方法，比如弗林，他14岁了，他喜欢画画。

And so I think nurturing creativity, finding ways to develop those skills for example, Flynn, who's 14, he loves drawing.

他画画特别有天赋。

He's unbelievably talented at drawing.

而且我觉得他有时候会想，嗯，我不知道画画能不能当职业。

And I think sometimes he's like, well, I don't know if there's a career in drawing.

但我觉得他有时候没意识到，画画只是他表达创造力的一种方式。

But I think sometimes he doesn't see that drawing is just the way that he's expressing creativity.

画画是锻炼大脑那些肌肉的起点，让你能想象出别人看不到的东西，对吧？

Drawing is the beginning of that journey of exercising those muscles in your brain that allow you to visualize something that other people don't see, right?

这是一种方式，一种工具，一种技能，他可以用它来表达脑子里的想法。

And that's one way, that's one tool, one skill he can use to express what's in his brain.

但我觉得锻炼这种能力，这种创造力，非常重要。

But I think exercising that muscle, that creativity is so important.

我觉得创造力正变得越来越稀缺，归根结底是因为我们的社会太注重那些可以量化的东西了。

I think creativity is just becoming more and more rare, ultimately because so much of our society is oriented around things we can measure.

创造力很难量化。

Creativity is so hard to measure.

所以，当结果不确定时，要下定决心去投资培养创造力，真的很难。

And so I think it can be really tough to find the dedication to invest in developing creativity when it's uncertain what the outcome is.

但这正是我会鼓励他，或者鼓励很多人去做的事情。

But that's really what I would encourage him or so many people to do.

我们天生都有创造力。

We're all born creative.

我们天生就有表达自己的能力。

We're all born with this ability to express ourselves.

只是随着时间推移，我觉得我们不再练习这种能力，或者变得害怕表达自己。

And it's only over time, I think, that we stop practicing that ability or we become fearful of expressing ourselves.

而我认为这是可以克服的。

And I think that can be overcome.

因为那个年纪的我们总是想着职业头衔，对吧？

Because we think through job titles at that age, don't we?

我们会想，我应该瞄准什么样的职业头衔？

We think, what's the job title that I should be aiming at?

比如医生、律师之类的，而不是那么关注积累有用的长期技能。

So doctor, lawyer, etcetera, versus we don't necessarily think as much about collecting useful long term skills.

我女朋友的弟弟现在就是这样。

I'd say I've got my girlfriend's little brother now.

他绞尽脑汁，想为未来六十年的生活选一个职业头衔。

He's like racking his brain, trying to pick a job title for the next like sixty years of his life.

我是说，事情不是那样的，你知道吗？

I mean, it doesn't work like that, you know?

而且现在世界变化也很快。

And the world is changing so quickly now as well.

可能更合理的做法是去掌握一些能通用的基本技能。

It probably makes more sense to try and get some fundamental skills that will translate.

而且职位头衔本来就挺荒唐的。

Plus job titles are totally ridiculous anyways.

早期的时候，我们随便给加入团队的人编个头衔。

In the early days, we would just make up anyone who joined the team, we would just make up their their title.

那个头衔跟实际工作

It would have nothing to do

一点关系都没有。

with anything.

团队小的时候，职位头衔确实很荒唐，对吧？

Job title is ridiculous when the team is small, right?

总的来说，对吧？

Just in general, right?

因为我觉得人们会以职位头衔来锚定地位，对吧？

Because I think people anchor to job titles to confer status, right?

而且我觉得最终那些惊人的影响力、创造力和好点子可能来自任何地方，对吧？

And I think ultimately amazing impact, creativity, great ideas come from anywhere, right?

你越是把组织围绕层级来构建，就越没有关注真正重要的事情，那就是如何确保好点子从任何地方涌现出来，被发掘出来，并且被实现。

And the more that you focus your organization around hierarchy, I think the less you're focusing on the right things, which are how are we making sure great ideas are coming from anywhere, getting surfaced, and being built.

但是当事情开始变大，我们需要建立流程和汇报关系时，层级就出现了。

But hierarchy comes into place when things start to get big and we need to put processes and reporting lines in place.

你怎么应对这种情况？

How do you defend against that?

嗯，我觉得你触及了所有公司最终都会面临的根本问题。

Well, I think you're getting at the fundamental problem that all companies end up having.

我觉得有一本很棒的书叫《Loonshots》，我非常喜欢，它直接探讨了这个问题。

And I think there's a great book called Loonshots, which I really love, that actually gets at this issue directly.

基本上，作者萨菲·巴卡尔发现，大公司一旦规模变得很大，要服务很多客户。

And basically, what the author, Safi Bakal, found was essentially that very big companies, once they get a lot larger, they have a lot of customers to serve.

他们就需要建立各种组织架构。

They need to build all this organizational infrastructure.

最终，这就带来了层级制度。

And ultimately, that comes with hierarchy.

但那些能持续创新、长期保持创新成功的公司，同时也有非常小、非常扁平的团队，这些团队完全没有层级，专注于创新和尝试新事物。

But the ones that continue to innovate, that are very successful at innovating consistently over long periods of time, also have very small, very flat teams that don't have any hierarchy at all that are really, really focused on innovating and on trying new things.

最终，真正成功的公司会找到一种方式，在支持大量客户、需要运营严谨和注重指标的大型组织，和这群尝试疯狂想法的小团队之间，建立起一种关系。

And ultimately, the companies that are really successful find a way to build a relationship between the huge organization that is supporting all these customers and needs to be operationally rigorous and metrics focused, builds a relationship between them and this very small group of people who are trying crazy things.

他举了很多例子。

And he gives a lot of examples.

美国赢得二战的一个方式就是，当时他们有一群疯狂的科学家，在尝试雷达之类的新事物。

One of the ways that The United States was able to win World War II, they had these crazy group of scientists that were trying new things like radar and stuff like that at the time.

然后他们把那些想法带到军方，军方是一个庞大、结构严谨、层级分明的组织，他们会问：你们觉得这个怎么样？

But then they were taking those ideas, bringing them to the military, which is a huge, very structured hierarchical hierarchical organization, and saying, what do you guys think about this?

你们打算怎么利用这一点？

How can you play with this?

你们有什么想法？

What are your ideas?

你们有什么建议？

What are your feedback?

把这些带进实战中去。

Take this into battle.

把它装到飞机上试试。

Put it on an airplane.

看看效果怎么样。

See what happens.

然后把反馈给那帮没层级、扁平化的小团队，让他们去搞发明和科研。

And then give that feedback back to this very unstructured, flat, small group of inventors and scientists.

只要把这两部分的关系理顺了，公司就能找到办法让大组织和小团队紧密合作，从而持续创新。

And by really focusing on the relationship between those parts of the organization, ultimately, companies can figure out how to build a strong relationship between the two and then innovate over time.

那你在Snapchat是怎么做到这一点的？

So how have you done that at Snapchat?

在Snapchat，我们的设计团队非常小。

At Snapchat, we have a really small design team.

我觉得大家可能会感到意外。

I think it would surprise people.

只有九个人。

It's nine people.

真的吗？

Really?

完全扁平化。

It is totally flat.

所以没有什么花哨的头衔。

So there's no fancy titles.

每个人都是产品设计师。

Everyone is a product designer.

团队的工作方式非常专注于做出东西。

The way that the team works is very focused around making things.

这就是全部的工作。

That's the entire job.

实际上，你入职的第一天，我们每周会有一两次设计评审，每次持续几个小时。

In fact, your very first day when you start, we have design critiques once a week for a couple hours.

你入职的第一天，就必须展示一些东西。

Your very first day, you have to present something.

所以你必须做出东西并展示出来。

So you have to make something and present it.

我觉得这样做非常有趣且有力的一点是，最终，当然，在你第一天，你对公司正在做什么毫无背景，完全不知道发生了什么，你怎么可能想出一个好主意呢？

And what that does that I think is really interesting and powerful is that ultimately, of course, on your first day, when you have no context for what the company is working on, no idea what's going on, how on earth are you supposed to come up with a great idea?

我是说，这几乎是不可能的。

I mean, it's almost impossible.

但你第一天就必须展示一个想法。

But you have to show an idea your first day.

所以到头来，你第一天最担心的事情真的发生了，我们大家坐在一起，看着一个其实并不怎么样的想法。

And so ultimately, on your very first day, your worst fear has come true, that we're sitting there altogether, and we're looking at an idea that's ultimately not that great.

我是说，有时候想法还不错，但说到底也不是特别好。

I mean, sometimes they're pretty good, but ultimately not that great.

我觉得这反而为创造力打开了大门，因为最糟糕的情况已经发生了。

And that, I think, opens the door to creativity because you've already it already happened.

你已经失败了。

You already failed.

那个想法不够好。

The idea wasn't good.

在我们设计团队里，最终的结果就是99%的想法都不行，但剩下的1%是好的。

And what ultimately happens on our design team is that 99% of ideas are not good, but 1% is.

我们非常认同这个理念，就是要想出好主意，最好的办法就是有很多主意。

And we really abide by that idea of like or the concept that like the best way to have a good idea is to have lots of ideas.

所以团队一直在不停地产生大量的想法、产品、功能等等。

So the team is just constantly generating an incredible number of ideas and products and features and that sort of thing.

最终，我们的工作就是想办法找出那些真正好的点子，然后最重要的是，在这个不断产生各种想法的小团队和我们规模更大的工程团队、产品团队之间建立起紧密的联系，他们也有各种很棒的想法，也在用自己的方式创新，然后在两者之间建立一个良性循环，这样我们就能不断推出新产品，并且持续改进它们。

And ultimately, our job is to try to figure out what the great ones are and then, most importantly, build a strong relationship between this little team that's coming up with all this stuff all the time and our much bigger engineering organization, our bigger product organization, who also have all sorts of amazing ideas and are also innovating in their own way, and build a flywheel between the two where we can ultimately make a lot of new products and then consistently make them better.

我有很多很多非常好奇的问题。

So many questions that I'm very, very curious about.

第一个问题是，你们会衡量那个小设计团队产生的想法数量吗？

The first one is, do you measure the amount of ideas that that small design team are producing?

不会。

No.

但我知道什么时候我们需要更多想法。

But I do know when we need more.

好的。

Okay.

明白。

Fine.

好的。

Okay.

所以你有一种直觉上的感觉。

So you've got a you've got a sort of intuitive feeling.

团队小，你能保持紧密联系。

It's small team, you can stay close.

那你怎么让更大的组织去配合那个小设计团队呢？毕竟大组织有自己的利益考量、自己的规划周期，还有自己的自尊心，就像所有人一样。

And then how do you get the bigger organization to cooperate with the smaller design team when the bigger organization have their own incentives, they have their own planning cycles, they have their own egos, as all humans do?

你怎么让他们合作起来？

How do you get them to work together?

对我们来说，桥梁组织可能就是我们的产品组织。

For us, the bridge organization is probably our product organization.

他们真的帮助把工程团队和设计团队之间的点连接起来。

And they really help connect the dots between the engineering folks and the design folks.

而且很多这些事情其实反映了我和Bobby在早期的那种关系，那时候我更多是专注于设计。

And a lot of this stuff actually mirrors the relationship that Bobby and I had in the very early days, where I was more design focused.

我有一点工程背景，也学过一些计算机科学，但我更专注于设计。

I had a bit of an engineering background and had taken some CS, but I was more design focused.

而鲍比是一位非常出色的计算机科学家，对吧？

And Bobby is an unbelievable computer scientist, right?

他在学校学了数学和计算机科学，但他也很喜欢设计。

He took math and computer science at school, but he also loved design.

所以我们之间有一种非常有力的关系，我可以和他讨论新想法和设计，而他可以谈工程上的限制。

And so we had this really powerful relationship where I could talk with him about new ideas and design, and he could talk about the engineering constraints.

比如，当我们发明了轻点拍照、长按录像这个理念时，那时候这可是件大事，对吧，为了帮助人们更方便地使用相机。

When, for example, when we were inventing this notion that you would tap to take a photo and hold to record a video, at the time, that was a really big deal, right, to help people more easily use their cameras.

现在每部智能手机的相机都是轻点拍照、长按录像。

Now every camera on a smartphone is tap for a photo hold for video.

但实现这个设计所需的工程复杂度，是我们真正深入讨论和解决的，因为设计和动画的运作方式，以及你手指的按法，最终都和我们切换视频流或拍摄静态图像的方式密切相关。

But the engineering complexity that was required to enable that design was something that we really talked about and worked through because the way that the design and the animations had to work and the way that you held your finger really mattered with the way that ultimately we were flipping between the video feed or capturing a still image.

正是这种对话最终促成了一个新产品，一个人们可以用的新东西。

And it was that dialogue that ultimately ended up resulting in a new product and a new thing that people could use.

所以我们一直在整个组织中复制这种模式，努力建立这种关系，让设计和工程之间真正有对话、有理解、有欣赏，而这往往是由我们的产品组织来推动的。

So we mirrored a lot of that and tried to build that relationship across the organization constantly over time where there's a real dialogue and an understanding and an appreciation both for design and engineering that oftentimes is facilitated by our product organization.

说到那个小设计团队，你提到有评审会，评审会是什么？

In terms of that small design team, you said you have a critique session What once a is a critique session?

就是大家一起看看作品。

So it's just where we look at work.

就干这个。

That's all we do.

大家分享新作品。

We people just share new work.

所以花几个小时，看看所有的新想法。

So for a couple hours, we'll just look at all the new ideas

这些想法来自那个小团队。

That have come out of that small team.

还有那个团队上周出的新设计。

And new designs that have come out of the last week from that team.

这些可以是任何东西吗？

And these can be anything?

真的，什么都可以。

Really anything, yeah.

很多时候，这些作品都是围绕解决某个问题来展开的。

Oftentimes, they're oriented around solving a problem.

所以又回到了产品设计的理念，比如我们要解决什么问题？

So kind of coming back to that product design philosophy, like what problem are we trying to solve?

我们怎么去理解我们的社区用户？

How can we empathize with our community?

好的，我们的创作者在发布到Snapchat时遇到了麻烦。

Okay, our creators are having friction posting to Snapchat.

你知道，他们查看故事回复的方式让人困惑，或者那功能不太对劲。

It's, you know, confusing the way that they're reading their story replies, or that's not working the right way.

我们怎么让这变得更简单？

How can we make that easier?

然后我们就会看一大堆想法。

And then we'll just look at a ton of ideas.

那这些人，你说有八九个人，他们是各自独立工作，还是作为一个团队一起工作？

And are these well, you said there's eight or nine people.

他们是在团队内各自独立工作，还是作为一个整体协作？

Are they working in isolation within that team, or are they working as one team?

他们经常互相反馈意见。

They very often are getting feedback from one another.

很多时候，我们会以小团队的形式一起处理项目，但也会定期聚在一起交流。

Oftentimes, we're tackling projects together in small teams, you know, but all come together on a on a regular basis.

我很喜欢你提到的这个关键点，就是关键在于产生更多想法，而不是试图找到那个完美的想法。

I love this this point you were making about the key thing that you've discovered is is that the game is more ideas, not trying to find the perfect idea.

更多想法，更多反馈。

More ideas, more feedback.

更多想法，更多反馈。

More ideas, more feedback.

提高失败率，获得更多反馈。

You increase your failure rate, get more feedback.

这确实和人们创业时的想法相反。

It it does kind of go contrary to what people think when they're building a business.

他们觉得关键是要有一个完美的点子。

They think the game is to have the perfect idea.

但那些人都是没创过业的人。

But those are all people who've never built a business before.

因为最终你会学到一些东西，对吧？

Because eventually you learn you learn something, right?

你会发现自己其实挺会猜的。

You learn that you're that good at guessing.

我觉得归根结底，你得最大化你的学习速度。

And I think ultimately, you have to maximize your rate of learning.

我是说，这真的很关键。

I mean, that's that's just critical.

最大化你的学习速度。

Maximize your rate of learning.

咱们回到早期那些日子吧。

Let's go back to those early days.

你就在那间办公室里。

You're in that office.

当你想到那张照片里的人，他们是最初大约20人中的一部分，现在回头看，招聘有多重要？

When you think about the people in that photo that were part of the first sort of 20, how important in hindsight is hiring?

我觉得这至关重要。

I think it's everything.

我觉得这至关重要。

I think it's everything.

而且这些人真的都非常优秀。

And these were really, really just wonderful people.

我的意思是，很多情况下，他们至今还是亲密的朋友。

I mean, still, in many cases, close friends.

而且我觉得有趣的是，有一个时刻我意识到，David、Daniel、Bobby，还有其他几位最初的工程师，他们所有人都是音乐家。

And I think interesting, there was a moment I realized David, Daniel, Bobby, and a couple other of our original engineers all of them original engineers were musicians as well.

那真的很有意思，因为早期在Snap做工程的人，创造力惊人，才华也惊人。

And it was really interesting, this moment, because the early folks who were working on the engineering side of Snap were unbelievably creative and unbelievably talented.

而且那是个很有意思的时刻，因为我觉得人们常常把这些领域分开来看。

And it was an interesting moment because I think oftentimes people think of the disciplines as separate.

比如，哦，那边是设计师，那边是工程师。

Like, oh, there's designers, and then over there, there's engineers.

我觉得很多魔力其实就来自于这些领域的结合或者交叉，或者那些既热爱又欣赏两者的人。

And I think so much of the magic actually is when those disciplines combine or cross over or people who really love and appreciate both.

尤其是对于一个想在做的每一件事上都充满创意的公司来说。

Especially for a company that's aspiring to be creative in everything that it's doing.

说到招聘这一点，早期你有没有犯过什么招聘上的错误？

On this point of hiring, did you make any hiring mistakes in those early days?

哦，当然有。

Oh, absolutely.

那些错误是什么？

What were those mistakes?

不一定是指人，而是框架不对，或者你招人的方式有问题？

Not necessarily people, but the frameworks were off or the way that you've hired these people?

是什么导致了这些错误？

What caused the mistakes?

我觉得在早期，我们有时候过于看重错误的经验类型，你明白我的意思吗？

I think occasionally in the early days, we almost over indexed on the wrong types of experience, if that makes sense.

所以我们特别想引进那些非常有经验、管理过更大团队的领导者。

So one of the things we really wanted to do was bring in people who were very, very experienced leaders who had run much bigger teams.

那时候的想法是，如果我们想建一个大公司，就得找那些管理过大公司和大团队的人。

That was like, if we want to build a big company, we got to find people who have run big companies and big teams.

所以早期加入我们的一位工程负责人，我记得他之前在亚马逊管理一个三百人左右的团队，来到Snapchat这边只有八个人。

And so one of the early engineering leaders who joined our team, I think he was coming working on a team of 300 or something like that at Amazon, was coming to like a team of eight Snapchat.

但我们当时确实在考虑长远，想着怎么招到能帮我们扩大规模、做出大事业的人。

But we were really thinking ahead about like, how can we hire people who can actually help us scale here and build something really big.

我觉得那种对领导经验和规模化经验的重视，确实很有价值。

And I think that sort of focus on leadership experience and experience leading at scale was really valuable.

我觉得在早期，那些拥有非常具体领域专长的人，往往价值没那么大。

I think what was oftentimes a bit less valuable in those early days was almost more people who had very specific domain expertise.

比如有些人来面试，会说，我觉得你们应该加点赞功能，因为其他平台都有点赞。

So there were people who would come into our come for an interview or something like that and be like, Well, I think what you guys should do is add likes because every other platform has likes.

如果你们加了点赞，用户就会用得更多，但他们并没有带着同样的开放心态和好奇心去思考，为什么Snapchat要做得不一样？

So if you just add likes, then people will use your service more and not really coming with the same open mindedness and curiosity about, well, why is Snapchat doing it differently?

比如，为什么你们没有点赞和评论？

Like, why don't you have likes and comments?

你们对服务的思考方式有什么不同？

Like, what how are you thinking about the service differently?

我怎样才能改变、成长和适应你们的思路，帮助你们更快发展？

And how can I change and grow and adapt to the way that you're thinking about it to help you grow faster?

所以现在我们在面试过程中，一直在寻找的一个特质就是适应能力。

And so I think now one of the things we're always looking for in the interview process is adaptability.

有之前的经验当然很好。

It's amazing to have prior experience.

但问题是，你怎么把之前的经验应用到新的环境里，并且改变和调整你看事情的方式，改变你的视角，来满足我们业务的需求，因为我们的业务和其他公司不一样。

But the question is, how do you apply that prior experience to a new context and change and adapt the way that you see things, change your perspective to be able to meet the needs of our business, which is different than other businesses?

还有其他什么因素？

What are the other factors?

如果你要打造一个完美的Snapchat员工，他们的性格、心理和特质应该是什么样的？

If you were to make a perfect Snapchat employee now, what would their personality be, their their psychology, their their attributes?

我们有三个价值观和三个领导行为。

We we have three values and three leadership behaviors.

三个价值观是善良、聪明和有创造力。

Three values are kind, smart, and creative.

这些从一开始就是我们的价值观，真的，因为我和Bobby当时就在聊天。

That's been Those have been the values since the very beginning, really because Bobby and I were just having a conversation.

比如，我们想和什么样的人一起工作？

Like, what kind of people do we want to work with?

善良、聪明、有创造力。

Kind, smart, creative.

对，很好。

Like, great.

但自那以后，我们可以花更多时间聊聊这个。

But since then and we can spend some more time talking about this.

我觉得随着时间的推移，真正让人着迷的是去学习。

I think what was really fascinating over time was to learn.

顺便说一句，十年前，人们根本不会在工作中谈论善良。

And by the way, ten years ago, people were not talking about kindness at work.

我的意思是，人们可能会说，抱歉，什么？

I mean, people would be like, sorry, what?

不，善良更有创造力。

No, kind's more creative.

比如，为什么要善良？

Like, why kindness?

我们发现，善良和创造力之间的关系真的非常重要。

What we found was that the relationship between kindness and creativity is really, really important.

因为如果人们不觉得可以放心大胆地提出疯狂的想法，不觉得即使他们说了个新点子但效果不怎么样，也不会被嘲笑，反而会得到支持。

Because unless people feel comfortable coming up with crazy ideas, unless they feel comfortable that if they say they have some new idea and it actually isn't that great, that they're not going be laughed at, that they'll be supported.

如果没有这种支持性的文化，就很难有创造力。

Unless you have that sort of supportive culture, it's very hard to be creative.

所以我们后来慢慢发现，哇，善良其实是打造创意文化的关键要素。

And so we learned over time that actually, wow, kindness is kind of the essential ingredient if you want to have a creative culture.

不过总之，善良、聪明、有创意。

But anyways, kind, smart, creative.

聪明嘛，这个不言而喻。

Smart, pretty self explanatory.

然后说到领导力行为，我们看重三种领导力行为或特质。

And then when it comes to leadership behaviors, there's three leadership behaviors or attributes we look for.

我想在“善良”这一点上停一下。

I just wanna pause on that point of kind.

你会区分一个人是“对人好”和“善良”吗？

Do you make a distinction between someone being nice and being kind?

因为在你提到的环境里，你们会做批评反馈的环节，给别人提出尖锐的意见。

Because in your environment, you also mentioned that you do these critique sessions and you're giving people critical feedback.

如果文化变得太过于友善，那岂不是会阻碍创新和反馈吗？

And if a culture gets a little bit too kind, then isn't that going to inhibit innovation and feedback?

我们总是把友善和客气区分开来。

We always differentiate between kind and nice.

有几个例子我觉得能帮助说明这一点。

There's a couple examples that I think help with that.

比如，我觉得告诉别人牙缝里卡了东西，这其实是真正的友善。

So like, for one, I think it's really kind to tell somebody that they have something stuck in their teeth.

你牙缝里卡了东西，你肯定想知道。

You have something stuck in your teeth, you want to know about it.

这可能会让你觉得有点尴尬。

It might make you feel awkward.

当然，作为指出来的那个人，也有点尴尬。

Certainly as the person pointing it out, it's a little awkward.

如果你只是想表现得客气，你就会假装什么都没发生，然后就说，哦，很高兴认识你，之类的。

If you just want to be nice, you pretend nothing's going on and you just say, oh, nice to meet you, whatever.

但如果你是真的出于善意，想帮那个人，你就会说，你牙上粘了东西。

But if you're really being kind and you want to help that person, say, You you've got something stuck in your teeth.

你得处理一下。

You've to take care of that.

我觉得这就能区分开客套和真正的善意，以及真心想帮别人。

And I think that helps distinguish between niceties and being kind and really wanting to help somebody.

我觉得另一个很好的例子是，如果有人在工作中真的很挣扎，或者很难成长，或者在Snap很难履行自己的职责，那么客气的做法可能就是让他们感觉好一点。

I think another great example is if somebody is really struggling at work or they're struggling to grow or they're struggling to perform their duties at Snap, the nice thing to do is maybe just make them feel good about it.

哦，别担心。

Oh, don't worry.

我相信会没事的。

I'm sure it'll be Okay.

而真正善意的做法是真心帮助他们成功，对吧？

The kind thing to do is really help them succeed, right?

比如说，嘿，这样不行，因为你做了X、Y和Z。

Say, hey, this isn't working because you're doing X, Y, and Z.

这里有一些方法可以让你换个角度思考。

Here are some things to do to think about that differently.

提供那种非常直接的反馈。

Provide that really direct feedback.

这样才能让人成长。

That allows people to grow.

这才是真正的善意，而不是让他们对没达到期望感觉良好。

And that's the kind thing to do rather than just making them feel good about not meeting expectations.

领导力价值观。

Leadership values.

说有三个方面。

Said there's three.

领导力价值观。

Leadership values.

好，一共有三个。

Okay, there's three of them.

第一个是T型领导力。

The first one is T shaped leadership.

我们经常聊T型领导力。

So we talk a lot about T shaped leadership.

我们说的意思是，你在某个领域有真正的深度经验和专业知识，同时对整个业务有广泛的了解，并且能够与各种不同类型、思维方式不同的人建立联系。

What we mean by that is that you have a real depth of experience, a depth of expertise in a given area, and then a real breadth of understanding of the business overall and an ability to connect with lots of different types of people who think different ways.

因为作为领导者，你需要把你的专业知识与业务的不同领域连接起来，才能真正产生影响。

Because you need to be able to connect your expertise to all the different areas of our business to really drive impact as a leader.

我觉得这几乎是当今经营企业的一个标志，没有团队，基本上不可能做成任何有趣的事情，对吧？

I mean, I think that's one of almost the hallmarks of running a business today is it's basically impossible to do anything interesting without a team, right?

当今世界运作的方式非常复杂，拥有深厚专业知识的人很重要，但他们还必须把这些知识应用到其他跨职能领域。

The way that the world works today is very complicated, and it's really important that you have folks who have deep expertise, but then they have to apply it to all these other cross functional areas.

所以，他们需要对其他领域有所了解，并且能够与不同观点或不同专业领域的人相处。

So they have to have a familiarity with it and an ability to relate to people with different viewpoints or other areas of expertise.

那当我们继续讨论这些领导力原则时，你的意思是，要在Snapchat成为领导者，你需要具备这三样东西吗？

And as we proceed with these leadership principles, are you saying that in order to become a leader at Snapchat, you need these three things?

还是说，Snapchat的每个人都需要具备这三样东西？

Or are you saying everybody at Snapchat needs these three things?

我们认为每个人都是领导者。

We think everyone is a leader.

所以我们确实会广泛地应用这些原则。

So we do apply it broadly.

但当然，你知道，我觉得在我们考虑招聘或引进新领导者时，这一点很重要，我们会和人们讨论这些。

But of course, you know, I think it's really important as we're thinking about hiring or bringing in a new leader that, you know, that this is something that we we talk to folks about.

那如果有人不太符合T型，更像是I型，他们有什么办法可以变得更T型一些吗？

So if someone's not quite T shaped, if they're a little bit I shaped, is there something they can do to become a bit more T shaped?

对，这其实可能更容易一些，对吧？

Yeah, that's almost maybe the easier one, right?

如果你能在深厚的专业基础上，去接触那些可能在你舒适区之外或业务不同领域的人，培养好奇心和理解力，这就有助于发展那种广度理解。

If you can build on a real depth of expertise by going engaging with folks maybe outside of your comfort zone or in different parts of the business and build that curiosity and understanding, that helps develop, I think, that breadth of understanding.

我觉得更难的是，如果你是个通才，没有那种深厚的技能或者专业领域，真的很难给团队带来足够的价值。

I think what's harder is if you're a generalist and you don't have that deep skill set or that deep area of expertise, it's really, really hard to bring enough value to the team.

我觉得这就是人们对中层管理感到不满的地方，就是那种感觉：哦，这个人什么都懂一点，但真的帮不了我解决这个问题，因为他们不了解细节。

And I think that's where people get frustrated with the idea of middle management, where it's like, oh, this is just a person who knows a little about a lot but can't really help me solve this problem because they don't really know the details.

他们真的不知道怎么帮我个人成长，或者解决这个棘手的技术问题。

They don't really understand how to help me grow as an individual or solve this tough technical problem.

所以我觉得专业深度特别重要，因为如果你对自己工作的领域了解不多，真的很难激励和你一起工作的人。

And so I think that's why that area of expertise is so important because it's so hard to inspire people that you're working with if you don't know a lot about the area that you're working in.

那在Snapchat，现在需要T型领导，还是当你们十个人在你爸家卧室里的时候也需要？

And do you need to be a T shaped leader at Snapchat now and when there was 10 of you in the bedroom or in your dad's house?

是一直都重要，还是因为公司变大了才变得重要？

Has it always been important, or is that a function of being bigger?

这是个好问题。

That's a great question.

我希望那时候我们能更认真地思考我们想要什么样的领导价值观和特质。

I wish we had been more thoughtful about the leadership values and characteristics we were looking for back then.

我觉得当你在一个十人或二十人的团队里工作时，你不会太去思考哪些领导特质对我们来说真正重要。

I think when you're working on a team of 10 or a team of 20, you're not thinking as much about what leadership characteristics are really important to us.

更多的是我们怎么才能活过明天？

It's more about how do we survive tomorrow?

但我觉得随着时间推移，当我们看到哪些领导在Snap真正成功时，我们就能看看那些特质，然后说，好吧，这些就是能在这里真正成功并为我们业务带来巨大价值的领导者。

But I think over time, as we learned what leaders were really successful at Snap, we were able to kind of look at those attributes and say, Okay, these are the leaders who can who really succeed here and drive a lot of value for our business.

在我们进入第二点之前，如果这个Evan能回到那个管理十人团队的Evan身边，把他拉到一边说，听着，这里有一些关于领导和建立团队的建议，你以后会需要的。

Before we move on to the second two, if this Evan could have gone back to the Evan that was running a team of 10, and he could have pulled them aside and said, listen, here's some advice that you're going to need to know about leadership and building this team.

在这个时刻，我能给你的最关键的忠告是什么？这是给所有正在创业、正在为可能成为大公司打基础的企业家们的，你会在他耳边低语什么？

The most critical advice I could give you at this time, and this is for all the entrepreneurs out there that are building they're laying the foundations of a potentially very big company right now, what would you have whispered in his ear?

我会说，一切都会好起来的。

I would have said everything's going to be Okay.

真的吗？

Really?

一切都会好起来的。

Everything's going to be Okay.

我觉得有时候人们太专注于做出正确的决定，而不太关注如果错了怎么去修正。

I think sometimes people are too focused on making the right decision and not as focused on fixing it if they're wrong.

我觉得我更应该强调的是，当你收到新信息时，你有多快能改变自己的想法？

And I think what I would have put more emphasis on is just how quickly are you changing your mind when you receive new information?

如果你一开始没做出正确的决定，你有多快能去解决问题或纠正错误？

How quickly are you fixing a problem or a mistake if you didn't make the right decision in the first place?

这种反馈循环在创业初期是至关重要的。

And that's the feedback loop that is so mission critical to building a business in the early days.

这其实关系不大。

It has very little to do.

当然，有些决定是生死攸关的，那些可能会给公司带来大麻烦。

Obviously, there's existential decisions, and those can create some big problems for your business.

但大多数决定并不是生死攸关的。

But most decisions are not existential decisions.

更重要的是先做出决定，如果错了，再去修正。

And the more important thing is to make a decision, and then if you're wrong, fix it.

而且我觉得，当你做错了的时候，修正错误这部分才是最值得关注的，还有你怎么能看出谁是你团队里真正优秀的领导者和真正有才华的人。

And I think it's the when you're wrong, fixing it part that deserves most of the attention, and also how you can identify who your great leaders are, who really talented folks on the team are.

因为他们会很快指出，你知道，我觉得我们这件事做得不对。

Because they're very quick to point out, you know, I don't think we did that right.

我觉得我们应该走这条路，或者另一条我们第一次可能没考虑过的路。

I think we should take this path, this other path that we maybe hadn't considered the first time.

而且我觉得在组织里说出这样的话需要勇气，而不是只说，哦，我们做得很好。

And I think it takes courage to say that in an organization rather than just say, oh, we're doing a great job.

当你回到那个时刻，你犯了错误，做错了什么，事后回想，你当时心里知道吗？

And when you're back there and you've made a mistake, there's something you've done wrong, in hindsight, did you know in your check?

因为当我第一次创业做学生公告板的时候，我想到的一件事是，我会收到反馈，反馈会说，你在这件事上错了。

Because one of the things that I think of when I was a first time founder building a student notice board was I would get feedback, and the feedback would be saying, you're wrong about this.

你需要改变。

You need to change.

而且我觉得有时候我内心是知道的，但我太害怕去行动了。

And I think sometimes there was a part of me that knew, but I was, like, too scared to act upon it.

所以我有点像在自我欺骗，硬着头皮继续往前走。

So I kind of, like, gaslit myself to just keep going.

我觉得很多创始人都会这样。

And I think a lot of founders do that.

我知道，因为他们会来找我，跟我说，哦，史蒂夫，我们雇了个人，已经一年了，就是不行。

Know this because they they come to me in my portfolio, and they say, oh, Steve, there's this guy we've hired, and he's been there now for a year, and he's just not cutting it.

我就想，你他妈跟我说这个干嘛？

I'm like, why the fuck are you telling me?

他们就是在拖延，回避那个对话，但显然他们心里清楚。

And they're they're procrastinating, avoiding the conversation, but clearly, they know.

显然，他们知道这不对。

Clearly, they know it's not right.

你这么说挺有意思的，因为每次有人来问我那种关于人的建议，比如你觉得我们该怎么做？

It's funny you say that because anytime someone comes to ask me about that type of people advice, like, do you think we should do?

你觉得呢？我就觉得，听起来你已经下定决心了。

Do you think that I'm like, sounds like you've already made up your mind.

所以，是的，我觉得根据反馈采取行动真的很重要，如果发现自己犯了错，不要害怕快速调整方向。

So yeah, I think it is really important to act on that feedback, not be afraid to change direction quickly if you realize that you made a mistake.

但正如你所说，这很难做到。

But as you point out, it's hard to do.

而且有时候，值得看看你的赌注能不能成。

And sometimes it is worth seeing if your bet you know, plays out.

你不想让团队来回折腾，老是改变主意。

You don't want to thrash the team and change your mind all the time.

所以有时候，你知道，在改变之前，稍微坚持一下也是值得的。

So sometimes, you know, it is sometimes worth seeing things through a little bit before you change.

你还有什么想对当年在爸爸家里的那个年轻伊万说的建议吗？

Is there anything else you would have said to that younger Evan in that in your dad's house advice?

那时候，在我们扩展到几千人之前，我觉得我们本可以更明确地定义文化，就是那种善良、聪明、有创造力的部分，并且在扩张之前真正把它融入团队。

At that point, before we had scaled to a lot of thousands of people, I think we could have been much more clear on the culture, the kind, smart, creative piece, and really embedded that in the team prior to scaling.

因为我们面临的最大挑战之一就是，当我们从20人发展到2000人时，我们基本上从各种不同的公司引进了各种不同的文化。

Because one of the biggest challenges that we confronted was, as we went from 20 people to 2,000 people, we basically imported all of these different cultures from all sorts of different companies.

比如我们引入了亚马逊的一批人，对吧，他们特别喜欢六页纸的文档。

Like we imported an Amazon contingent, right, who they really love their six page documents.

我们还引入了谷歌的一批人，对吧？

We imported a Google contingent, right?

他们非常注重基于共识的决策方式。

And they're very focused on consensus based decision making.

我们也引入了来自Meta的一批人。

We imported a contingent from Meta as well.

我觉得我们在明确自己的价值观以及这些价值观在实践中的具体表现和行为上，反应太慢了。

And I think we were too slow to be really clear about what our values were and what that looked like in practice, what those behaviors looked like.

我觉得如果我们更早更快地做到这一点，那么当我们评估绩效、审视我们的价值观——友善、聪明、有创意——时，我们会有具体的行为标准，这些标准实际上是有研究支持的，等等。

And I think if we had earlier and faster so when we're evaluating performance, when we look at our values, kind, smart, creative, we have specific behaviors attached to that that are actually research backed and whatever.

我们做了一项完整的研究，来了解哪些行为真正与绩效和这些价值观相关。

We did a whole study to understand which of those behaviors are really tied to performance and those values.

但这给人们提供了一个非常清晰的框架，让他们了解在Snap应该如何表现，以及我们独特的文化。

But that gives people a really clear framework for the expectations for how to behave at Snap and our unique culture.