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没人以这种方式考虑风险，这让我抓狂。
It drives me crazy that nobody else thinks about risk in this way.
人们看着我的生活，他们会说，你疯了。
People look at my life and they're like, well, you're crazy.
你真是个爱冒险的人。
You're such a risk taker.
至少我承担的是我自己选择的风险。
Well, at least I'm taking the risks that I'm choosing.
想想那些每个周末都出去派对、喝得微醺然后开车回家的人吧。
Because think of all the people that, like, go out partying every weekend and they get buzzed and they drive home.
还有那些久坐不动的人，他们说，我不冒险。
And even sedentary people who are like, well, I don't take risk.
我待在家里打电子游戏。
I stay home and I play video games.
不。
No.
你患心脏病的风险要高得多。
You're at a much higher risk of heart disease.
他们其实正在承担各种自己并没有主动选择的风险，而你最终还是会死。
Like, they're taking all kinds of risk that they're not actually choosing to take, and you're still gonna freaking die either way.
所以你还不如去承担一些明智的、经过计算的风险，去做你想做的所有事情，至少临死时能心满意足。
So you might as well take smart calculated risks and do all things that you wanna do and at least die happy when you go.
他已经做到了。
He's done it.
亚历克斯·霍诺尔德再次创造历史，攀爬了世界上最高的摩天大楼之一。
Alex Honnold has made history again, scaling one of the world's tallest skyscrapers.
但许多人得出的结论是，你不会感到恐惧，因为当他们观察这两张脑部扫描图时，你的杏仁核在看到恐怖图像时活跃度较低。
But the conclusion that a lot of people have arrived at is that you don't experience fear because when they look at these two brain scans, your amygdala is lighting up less when you're shown scary images.
我其实很讨厌这些大脑方面的说法，因为人们总是把我归类为‘你不一样’。
I I actually hate all the brain stuff because people always put me in this box of, well, you're different.
但其实我也没那么特别。
And I'm, well, not really.
我就是一个中产阶级的郊区孩子。
Like, I'm a middle class suburban kid.
我家里没人擅长运动。
Nobody in my family is athletic.
我经过二十年每周五天的攀爬，而且一直特别害怕，现在对恐惧的反应和普通人不一样了。
I just after twenty years of climbing five days a week and being really freaking scared, I respond differently than an average person.
整个过程中充满了情感上的挣扎，有时你只是觉得：我这么努力，却还是达不到自己想要的水平。
And there was tons of emotional turmoil throughout it, periods where you're just like, I'm trying so hard, and I'm just, like, not as good as I wanna be.
你知道吗，我曾经住在车里。
You know, I was, like, living in a car.
我每个月只有大约一百美元的收入。
I had, like, couple $100 a month for 10.
这很艰难，但你不可能一夜之间就精通一项技艺。
Like, that's challenging, but you just can't master a craft overnight.
我想这就是人们看不到的部分。
I guess that's what people don't see.
那么，你如何创造条件来比别人更能坚持下去？
And so how do you create the conditions to out persist other people?
在你整个职业生涯中，什么时候是你最害怕的时刻？
And then in all your career, when is the moment where you were most scared?
在南极洲的一次探险中，我一直在希望情况会好转，但情况却越来越糟。
On an expedition in Antarctica, I kept hoping that it's gonna get better, it just kept getting worse.
我就可能要死了。
Like, I could die.
在你去做这种事之前，你会和你的伴侣交谈吗？
Do you have a conversation with your partner before you go and do something like this?
因为她写了一封信。
Because she wrote a letter.
天哪。
Oh, gosh.
显然，这是你最糟糕的噩梦，她说。
Obviously, this is your worst nightmare, she said.
但我们每个人有时都必须做些害怕的事情，亚历克斯。
But we all have to do scary things sometimes, Alex.
各位，在本集开始前，我想拜托大家一件事。
Guys, I've got a favor to ask before this episode begins.
经常听这个节目的听众中，有69%还没有点击关注按钮。
69% of you that listen to the show frequently haven't yet hit the follow button.
这个关注按钮非常智能，因为它能确保你不会错过最精彩的剧集。
And that follow button is very smart because it means you won't miss the best episodes.
如果你关注了一个节目，算法会将该节目的最佳剧集显著地推送到你的信息流中。
The algorithm, if you follow a show, will deliver you the best episodes from that show very prominently in your feed.
所以，当我们推出本节目最精彩、分享最多、评分最高的剧集时，我希望能让你第一时间知道。
So when we have our best episodes on this show, the most shared episodes, the most rated episodes, I would love you to know.
而让你知道的最简单方式，就是点击那个关注按钮。
And the simple way for you to know that is to hit that follow button.
非常非常非常感谢你们。
Thank you so, so, so much.
亚历克斯，为了理解你，我认为根据我对你所做的一切了解——包括研究、与你妻子、经纪人以及我能接触到的每个人交谈——要理解你的背景，我们首先需要了解你成长的环境和你的童年，因为对我们所有人来说，似乎都留下了某种印记，定义了我们中许多人成为的异常个体，包括你自己。
Alex, to understand you, I think from everything I've learned about you, from the research I've done, from speaking to your wife, your agent, everybody I can speak to, I think to understand your context, we first need to understand the circumstances in which you were raised and the childhood you had because it seems to be I mean, for all of us, there's, like, fingerprints left left on us that define the anomaly that many of us become, including yourself.
那我需要知道什么？
So what do I need to know?
观众需要了解关于你早期背景的哪些内容？
What does the viewer need to know about that early context?
嗯，你们俩想怎么开始？
Well, I mean, how do you two wanna go?
我得去弄个沙发。
I need to get a sofa.
得回个消息。
Need to reply.
这就像，好吧。
This is like, alright.
但确实，我父母和我的成长环境给我留下了印记。
But, yeah, certainly, there's a there's an imprint from my parents, my upbringing.
我的父母关系非常紧张。
I mean, they had a a very fraught relationship.
他们最终离婚了，但为了孩子一直维持着婚姻。
They eventually got divorced, but they stayed together for the kids.
整个家庭氛围都很紧张，因为他们根本不喜欢对方。
And it was a whole, like, you know, say a tense home life because neither of them really liked each other.
我妈妈非常有上进心，表现非常出色。
And then my mom is very driven, very, you know, high performing.
我爸爸很难形容。
And my dad was hard to say.
我觉得在我认识他的整个过程中，他都深陷抑郁，因为这段关系。
I mean, I think my dad was deeply depressed basically the whole time I knew him because he was in this relation.
很难说得清楚。
You know, it's hard to tell.
他并没有过上自己最好的生活。
He wasn't living his best life.
然后，不幸的是，他们离婚后，他变得快乐多了，但他却去世了。
And then sadly, after they got divorced, he was he was much happier, but then he died.
所以，我根本没机会看到他真正绽放出光彩。
And so then never really got to see never really got to see him blossom that much.
而你的母亲非常有成就。
And your mother's high performing.
她有没有以某种方式对你施加了这种期望呢？
And did did she sort of implicitly demand that of you in any way?
是的。
Yeah.
我母亲会说七种或八种语言。
Mean, my mother speaks like seven or eight languages.
她几乎会演奏每一种乐器。
She, like, plays every instrument.
这简直有点疯狂。
It's, like, kinda crazy.
她在这方面很有艺术气质，就像古典意义上的艺术那样。
She's very artistically minded in that way, like, you know, the arts in a classical sense.
但没错，她也希望我们都能做到这些。
But, yeah, she I mean, she wanted us to do all those things too.
在这方面，我让她非常失望。
I'm a deep disappointment in that regard.
是的。
Right.
没错。
Exactly.
我看纪录片时看到一句话，你母亲经常说，我觉得意思是‘还不够好’。
There was a phrase that I saw when I was watching the documentary that your your mother would continually say, which I think translates to something like not good enough.
就像，就像，就像几乎不算数一样。
Like, like, like, almost doesn't count.
有趣的是，现在我的成年生活中，我常挂在嘴边的一句话是：别让完美成为优秀的敌人。
It's funny because I feel like a lot of my adult life now, one of my sort of go to sayings is, you know, don't let perfect be the enemy of good.
我真的很看重‘足够好’这个理念。
I'm really into, like, good enough.
比如，去尝试总比什么都不做要好。
Like, it's better to, like, try.
去做点什么总是更好的。
It's better to do something.
与其什么都不做，不如快速失败、吸取教训，然后继续前进。
You know, it's better to fail quickly and learn and keep moving forward than to not try something.
说白了，我不想被完美主义束缚住。
Like basically, I don't wanna be crippled by perfectionism.
我妈妈就是个典型的完美主义者。
Sort of like my mom is very much a perfectionist.
你知道的，如果做不好，那就别做。
You know, like if you can't do it right, don't do it.
我觉得，去尝试、学习和进步才是更好的方式。
I'm sort of like, I think it's better to try and learn and improve.
但她用这种方法成就了很多事。
But she's accomplished a lot of things with that approach.
是的。
Yeah.
她确实如此。
She yeah.
她确实做到了。
She has.
当然。
For sure.
那情绪呢？
What about emotions?
这一点我听你多次提到过，就是在你父母关系不和的环境中。
This is something you I've heard heard you sort of talked about a lot is in that environment where your mother and father aren't getting along well.
我记得你曾说过，在父亲去世前，你几乎没见他真正快乐过。
I think I I heard you say that you're you hadn't seen your father really happy before he'd passed away.
是的。
Yeah.
在情感表达方面，那是一个充满爱的家庭吗？
Was it an emotional household in terms of affection?
不是。
No.
那是一个非常缺乏情感的家庭。
Was a very unemotional household.
不过话说回来，你知道的，那是一个安全、相对幸福的家庭。
That said, though, you know, it was a safe, relatively happy household.
我的意思是，一切都挺好的，你知道的？
Like, it was it was fine, you know?
而且我和很多亲戚关系很好，和祖父母以及一些叔叔阿姨们关系非常亲密。
And and I was close to a lot of my extended family, and so I had a really good relation with my grandparents and some of my aunts and uncles.
所以，我的意思是，直到我长大一些，开始更多地了解其他人的家庭，我才觉得自己的家庭生活完全是幸福的。
And so, I mean, I basically would have characterized it as a totally happy family life until I became older and started seeing other people's families more.
我有点觉得，哦，这看起来甚至更幸福。
And I kinda like, oh, this seems even happier.
你明白我的意思吗？
You know what I mean?
基本上一直很好，直到你看到还有更好的可能。
Where it's like basically really good until you see what else it can be.
然后你就觉得，这看起来更好了。
And then you're like, this seems even better.
而且
And
你妈妈从来都不表达爱意。
your mom wasn't ever affectionate.
你知道，那种爱总是有点条件性的，就是说，她关心你是不是表现得好，比如你表现优秀，或者你是个好孩子之类的。
You know, it always feels slightly conditional, you know, where it's like, you know, she cares if you be you know, if you perform well, like, you do well, like, if you're a good kid or whatever.
你明白我的意思吗？
You know what I mean?
攀岩是怎么进入你生活的？
Where where where did climbing come into your life?
因为我找到一些你攀岩的照片，你当时和你姐姐在一起，我觉得。
Because I've got some I have found some photos of you climbing and you look here at, like, with your sister, I believe.
就是这张。
Here we go.
这张在这儿。
This one here.
是的。
Yeah.
经典。
Classic.
你那时候多大？
Old are you there?
我不知道。
I don't know.
我的意思是，我不知道。
I mean, I don't know.
大概是六岁或者八岁左右。
Like, six or something or eight.
而且我很难判断中等大小孩子的年龄。
And I it's hard for me to tell, like, medium sized kids' ages.
为什么是攀岩？
Why why climbing?
哦，为什么不呢？
Oh, why not?
这太酷了。
It's so freaking cool.
你有去过岩场吗？
Have you have you rockland?
我去过，是的。
I've yeah.
有。
Have.
去健身房？
To a gym?
是的。
Yeah.
我确实去过。
I've I have.
但那不是最酷的事情吗？
But And wasn't it the freaking coolest thing?
很有趣。
It was fun.
对。
Yeah.
当然。
For sure.
我的意思是，我和你坐在一起时说我去爬过，这显得
I mean, saying I've climbed when I'm sat with you is
我觉得是的。
I feel like Yeah.
但你确实试过。
But you have tried it.
是的。
Yeah.
我试过。
I have.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
作为一个成年人。
As an adult.
是的。
Yeah.
如果你能想象小时候这有多有趣，然后一直不停地做下去，发现自己在这方面有些天赋，而且喜欢它，你就能想象自己走上这条道路。
If you can imagine as a kid how fun that is, and then if you just keep doing that nonstop, and then you find that you're you know, have some aptitude for it, you enjoy it, it's like, you you can imagine going down that path.
这太酷了。
It's so cool.
但你觉得攀岩的挑战性是不是像一块拼图，正好契合了你的大脑，比如解决问题的能力？
But is there something about the challenge of climbing that you think just kind of like was a jigsaw piece for your for you, your brain, like problem solving?
我觉得攀岩有一种根本的特质，就像跑步或游泳一样。
Well, I think there's something elemental about climbing in the same way as like running or swimming.
这是一种基本的运动方式，我觉得非常有趣。
It's like a basic movement thing that I think is quite enjoyable.
而且我认为我也天生喜欢站在高处，你知道的，站在顶端。
And I think that I also I I think I have an innate love of being on top of things, like, you know, being at the top.
basically 爱看壮丽的景色。
Basically, love big views.
我喜欢开阔的感觉。
I like the expansive.
你知道，我喜欢空气。
You know, I like air.
所以我喜欢待在高处。
And so I like being up on stuff.
所以我不确定。
So I don't know.
我觉得攀岩正好击中了几个让我觉得特别棒的点，那时候我就想，攀岩真是太酷了。
I think it just hit a few sweet spots like that where I was like, oh, climbing is just so cool.
我猜你从来没想过这能成为一份职业？
And you I'm assuming you never thought this could be a career?
没有。
No.
没有。
No.
而且实际上，即使当我开始全职攀岩时，我仍然不觉得这能成为一份职业，因为那时候根本没有什么职业攀岩。
And actually, even when I started rock climbing sort of full time, I still didn't think it could be a career because there just wasn't really professional climbing at that time.
那时候规模小得多。
It was, like, much smaller.
这个行业要小得多。
The industry is way smaller.
攀岩更加边缘化，根本算不上什么主流活动。
Climbing is way more fringe and, like, less of a thing.
但你并不是被金钱之类的东西所驱动的吗？
But you weren't motivated by, like, money or anything?
因为没人会为了成为富人而去攀岩。
Because one does not pursue rock climbing to become No.
富有。
Rich.
不是为了变得富有。
Not to become rich.
不。
No.
不过我说过，就在那之前的一个赛季，我父亲去世了。
Well, so I said though so my father died, like, the season before that.
因为我的父母刚离婚，他基本上把退休金留给了我妹妹和我。
And because my parents had just gotten divorced, he basically left his retirement to my sister and me.
她用这笔钱完成了大学学业。
And she used it to finish college.
我只是把钱投到了债券里，每月靠三百美元左右生活，反正也凑合能过。
I just put it into bonds and was living off, like, $300 a month or whatever, which kinda, like, worked.
你知道的。
You know?
我当时住在车里。
I was, living in a car.
那时我偷了我妈妈的厢式货车。
I stole my mom's minivan at the time.
我每个月大概有几百美元，足够让我作为一个19岁的年轻人去露营了。
I had, like, couple $100 a month, and it was kind of enough to just, like, go to be a 19 year old just, like, camping.
你知道的？
You know?
是这辆迷你货车吗？
Was it this minivan?
不是。
No.
那是我的第二辆。
That's my second one.
那是福特Econoline。
That's the Ford Econoline.
那是我买的第一辆真正的房车。
That's the first actual van that I bought.
我在这辆房车里住了十年。
I lived in that van for ten years.
十年？
For ten years?
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
所以我买了这辆厢式货车。
So I bought this van.
我的意思是，这可是经典款。
I mean, this is this is classic.
但我买这辆厢式货车只花了10美元。
But so I bought this van for $10.
而这个是最后一次改装，也是最讲究的一次改装。
And and then originally, this is the last build out, which is the classiest build out.
最初的那次改装是我叔叔和我免费做的，用的基本上是他木工坊里的边角料。
The original one my uncle and I did for free with, like, scrap wood from his, you know, in his woodshop, basically.
然后我就在那里面住了十年。
And and so then I lived in that for ten years.
当你住在里面的时候，你会觉得，我真的连这辆房车都站不直。
And you're kinda like, yeah, when you live in it, I couldn't even stand in this van.
你知道的？
You know?
我的背受不了。
Was my back.
但你知道，当你在车里住了十年，你会省下不少钱。
But, you know, when you're living in your car for ten years, you you save quite a lot of money.
你是在哪几年之间住在车里的？
Between what ages did you live in your car for ten years?
我大概20岁的时候买了这辆房车。
I probably bought this van when I was 20.
所以基本上是从20岁到30岁。
So 20 to 30, basically.
他真的认为那样是对的吗？因为我觉得我30岁的时候遇到了我妻子，就在同一年，我从这辆小货车换到了更大的一辆。
Does he actually actually, think that's right because because I think I met my wife when I was 30, and that same year, I switched from this van to the bigger van.
如果你看过电影《自由 Solo》，那我买的正是这款普罗马斯特，也就是这款道奇车。
If you've seen the film Free Solo, that's I bought the the Promaster, this, like, Dodge.
终于，我能在我的车里站直了。
It was like, I could stand up in my van finally.
我当时就想，我这是在往上升级了。
And I was like, I'm moving up in the world.
我能站起来了。
I can stand.
这真是太令人兴奋了。
It's pretty exciting.
非常好。
Really well.
哦，里面还有一个小炉子
Oh, there's there is a little stove in
这辆。
this one.
是的。
Yeah.
不过这辆是我十年间对这辆面包车进行了三次不同的改装，因为最初的版本非常简陋。
So this though is the I did three different build outs of this van over the ten years because like the original one is super scrappy.
第二次改装稍微好一点，而这次则是我做了相当不错的改装，大概用了五六年左右。
The second build was, like, a little nicer, and then this was, like, a pretty nice build that I had for, I don't know, five or six years or so.
当你在面包车里住了十年，而你的母亲又非常注重效率时，我妈妈就在这儿，我想。
When you live in your van for ten years and you have a mother who is very performance focused, I've got her here, I believe.
你和她一起来的。
You come in with her.
对。
Yep.
经典。
Classic.
你有没有面临很大的外界压力，要你去找个正经工作？
Do you not face a lot of external pressure to, like, go get a real job?
说实话，没你想象的那么多。
Honestly, less so than you would think.
说真的，我妈妈一直对我的整个选择相当支持。
Like, to her credit, my mom was always pretty supportive of the whole path.
我觉得，幸运的是，我年轻时就开始做这些事，大家都觉得这是你的间隔年的一部分。
I think, you know, I was kinda lucky that I did a lot of this when I was young enough that it's all part of your gap year.
你年轻的时候，就是在探索自我。
It's like you're young and you're finding yourself.
而且，当时也足够多的外部认可，让我家人至少能看着说：好吧，你至少在这件奇怪的事上做得不错，虽然我们不懂，也不知道你到底在做什么。
Then I think there was enough sort of external validation that my family could at least look at it and be like, Well, you seem to be good this random thing, even though we don't get it and don't really know what you're doing.
但至少别人觉得你擅长这个，那就继续做下去吧。
But at least other people think you're good at it, so keep doing your thing.
那到这个时候，是攀岩吗？
And at this point, was it rock climbing?
是自由攀登吗？
Was it free soloing?
是的。
Yeah.
这其实是各种类型的综合。
It's all a little bit of everything.
但基本上就是，你知道的，做个所谓的专业攀岩者。
But basically just being a I mean, you know, like being a professional climber, quote unquote.
有些是自由攀登，有些是速度攀岩，有些是高难度攀岩，还有一些是去探险、开辟新路线。
Some of it's free soloing, some of it's like speed climbing, some of it's just hard climbing, some of it's going on expeditions, doing new routes.
这其实是各种类型的综合。
Like it's a little bit of everything.
对于不了解自由攀登的普通人来说，它的定义是什么？
And for the average person that doesn't know what free soloing is, what's the like definition of it?
就是不使用绳索的攀爬。
That's climbing without a rope.
所以，不使用保护装备的攀爬，这现在是我最广为人知的部分。
So climbing without protection, which is definitely what I'm most well known for now.
但在职业攀岩的语境中，我做过大量其他类型的攀岩活动。
But in the context of professional climbing, I've done tons of other things in climbing.
大多数时候你都会系着绳子，大多数时候你做的都是其他类型的事情。
Like most of the time you have a rope on, most of the time you're doing other sorts of things.
但自由独攀之所以让你出名，是因为它更容易进入主流视野。
But it's like the free soloing is what you end up being well known for because that, like, breaks into the mainstream a lot more.
我通常对像你这样的人非常感兴趣，你们选择了人生中少有人走的路，然后在职业生涯后期才逐渐获得关注。
I'm really intrigued generally by people like you who, like, take I I mean, take the path less traveled in their career and then maybe nearer the the end of the graph, pick up traction.
我手里拿着一张纸和一支笔，因为我很想请你画一下，假设你现在80岁，而你现在40岁。
And I have this piece of paper and this pen because I'd love if you could from the age of, let's say, 80 you're you're now 40 years old.
是的。
Yeah.
我今年刚满40岁。
I turned 40 this year.
变老了。
Getting old.
你能画一张图，展示一下你的职业生涯在成功方面的走势吗？
Could you draw a graph showing how your career looks in terms of success?
你可以用金钱、关注度或其他任何标准来衡量。
You can measure that by money or attention or whatever.
让我看看。
Let's see.
所以
So
它有点像
it was kind of like
什么都没有。
Nothing.
什么都没有。
Nothing.
慢一点，然后就像这样。
Slow a little bit and then like this ish.
是的。
Yeah.
然后基本上就像这样，基本上是平缓但缓慢增长，接着在自由攀登时突然大幅上升。
And then kind of like, and then basically just like in like this where you basically like kind of flat but growing and then you have free solo where it jumps a ton.
这简直有点疯狂。
It's like kind of crazy.
然后它继续以比之前稍快的速度增长，接着又因为再次建楼而急剧上升。
And then and then it keeps kind of growing at a slightly faster rate than before and then it basically jumps a ton because of the building thing again.
我觉得这很有趣，因为大多数人一生中都不愿意经历18到29岁这段时期，但你确实挺过来了。
I I find this fascinating because most people in their lives wouldn't be willing to endure this phase 18 to 29 where Well, but it's enduring.
这太棒了。
It's so great.
我会再做一遍。
Like, I would do that again.
我太喜欢了。
I loved it so much.
我的意思是，我经常想，如果能从零开始重新来过该多好，因为现在我去攀岩的所有地方，我都已经爬了二十年，几乎把能做的都做了一遍，西部美国的很多路线也都被我攻克了。
Like, I mean, I often think I'd be so happy to just start over from zero because like all the places that I go climbing now, I've been climbing there for twenty years and I've like done most of the things I can do and, you know, sort of like tapped out a lot of stuff in the Western US.
我真的好想按下重置按钮，从头再来，因为那样的话，你会有那么多新东西可以挑战。
And I'm like, man, I would love to just hit the ReZero button and start over because you'd have so much stuff to do.
这太棒了。
It's so amazing.
我想我的问题措辞有误，我用了‘忍受’这个词，但你却把它看作是
I guess that's the that's the different the the fault of my question is that I said the word endure, but you see it as
是的。
Yeah.
你可以去爬你看到的每一条路线。
You get to climb every single thing you see.
太神奇了。
It's amazing.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，从18岁到30岁，我确实试图爬过我能看到的每一条路线，因为我当时只是在学习。
I mean and that's the thing is, like, from age 18 to to 30, I basically did try to climb every single thing I could see because I was just like, I'm learning.
我在成长。
I'm growing.
这太棒了。
This is amazing.
我什么都爬。
I climb everything.
但现在我实际上更有策略了，因为现在大量爬简单的路线对我来说已经没什么帮助了。
And, like, now I'm actually much more strategic about it because doing tons of easy climbing, like doesn't really help me at this point.
我不会再有大的技术提升了。
I'm not gonna make like big technique gains.
这只会让我疲惫，却得不到应有的进步。
It basically just makes me tired without without the right kind of gains.
这就像是一个顶级跑步者每天不停地慢跑几英里。
It'd be like somebody it'd be like an elite runner just jogging for miles and miles every day.
你会觉得，如果你已经是顶级跑者了，这样并不会让你的马拉松成绩有所提升。
And you're kind of like, that's not gonna make you that's not gonna improve your marathon time if you're already like an elite runner.
这可能挺有趣的，但根本不会对你有实质性的帮助。
It's it might be fun, but it's just not gonna like move the needle for you.
在你人生的这段时期，18到30岁，你主要追求的是乐趣，做自己喜欢的事。
Through this period of your life, 18 to 30, you're you're optimizing for just having fun, doing things you enjoy.
嗯，我的意思是，不完全是。
Well, I mean No.
我一直在挑战自己。
I was always I was always challenging myself.
基本上，我总是在寻找下一个能稍微推我一把的挑战。
Like, basically, was optimizing for, like, what's the next thing I can do that pushes me a little bit.
但你当时并不是在考虑如何致富，或者
But you weren't optimizing for how to get rich or
嗯，那我本该去找份工作。
Well well, then I would've gotten a job.
如果我真想致富，我早就该把大学读完然后去找份工作了。
If I was optimizing for getting rich, I would've freaking finished my college degree and gotten a job.
我说这个是因为
I say this in
部分原因是，我面试过太多人，他们选择的职业常被认为不是正经工作，比如喜剧演员，嗯。
part because I interview so many people who pursued careers that are often considered not real jobs, like comedians Mhmm.
或者魔术师。
Or magicians.
我在18到30岁这个阶段，发现他们都有同样的特点。
And I tend to find the same thing between the age of 18 and 30.
他们追求的并不是财富或名气这样的东西。
They optimize for something that isn't necessarily being rich or famous.
然后在某个时刻，曲线就变成这样了。
And then at some point the graph looks like this.
这是因为，我的意思是，我想你肯定也知道，这个世界其实就像一个赢家通吃的经济模式。
Well, it's because, I mean, I think, yeah, I'm sure you know this, but I mean, the world really, it's like a winner take all economy type deal.
基本上，如果你是那个做这件事的人，你的收入就会突然暴增。
It's like basically, if you're the dude that does the thing, of a sudden your earnings go insane.
但在你成为那个最顶尖的人之前，比如你只是最好的魔术师、最好的喜剧演员或最好的什么人，突然间你就能赚到巨额收入。
But until you become the dude that does the thing, you know, if you're like the best magician or the best comedian or the best whatever, then all of a sudden you make an insane amount of money.
但当你只是众多挣扎中的喜剧演员之一时，你就真的在苦苦挣扎。
But when you're just like one of many struggling comedians, you're, you know, you're struggling.
所以对我来说，作为一个攀岩者，你可能会想，哦，我只是个住在房车里攀岩的普通人。
And so I think for me as a climber, you're of like, Oh, I'm just a dude living in my van climbing.
但到了某个时刻，我就成了那个——你知道的，你就是那个不带绳子攀岩的人。
Then at a certain point, I'm like the dude that, you know, I'm like, oh, you're that guy that climbs without the rope.
哦，太酷了。
You're like, oh, cool.
然后你的收入就突然飙升了。
And then all of sudden your earnings are like, phew.
这是你人生中一段艰难的时期吗？
Was this was this a difficult period of your life?
从18岁到30岁？
This 18 to 30?
不，那是我人生最好的时光。
No, it was like the best.
当然，那时候我一直在努力平衡感情生活。
Well, obviously it was like, know, I was like trying to juggle relate.
我想找一个女朋友。
Like, I wanted to get a girlfriend.
你是一个二十多岁的年轻人，独自住在车里，想在某件事上比现在做得更好，却不太清楚该怎么做，也不确定自己人生的方向。
You're a young twenties man living alone in a car, like, wanting to be better at something than you are, but not not quite knowing the way and not knowing what you're doing with your life.
所以，显然，这段时期充满了各种情感上的挣扎。
So, know, so obviously, there's tons of emotional turmoil throughout it.
但并没有。
But no.
我的意思是，回过头来看，
I mean, retrospectively, it's
简直太不可思议了。
like amazing.
你父亲去世了，这在某种程度上，我想，是后来一些变化的诱因。
And your your dad passes away, which is in part, I guess, some of the catalyst future.
说实话，我父亲去世应该是这个转折的起点。
Honestly, my dad passing away should be the beginning of that graph.
它应该从19岁开始算起。
It should be this should basically start at 19.
因为18岁的时候，我上了大学。
Because 18, I went to university.
所以从19岁开始，我想我就踏上了旅途。
And so then starting at 19, I guess, I went on the road.
你父亲的离世，
Your dad passing,
这对你产生了什么影响，除了让你摆脱了他期望的束缚，能够自主做决定之外？
what impact did that have on you outside of it somewhat liberating you to make decisions that outside of his expectations?
嗯，我的意思是，显然这很令人难过。
Well, I mean, obviously, you know, it's sad.
这很难受，尤其是现在，我总觉得可惜，我和父亲没有建立起关系，他没能见到我的孩子们，孩子们也没有祖父，诸如此类的事情，确实挺艰难的。
It's hard, like, and especially now I'm sort of like, oh, it's too bad that I don't have a relationship with my dad and he doesn't, you know, that my kids don't have a grandfather and all that kind of, you know, it's like, yeah, it's tough.
我认为最直接的影响，可能是让我重新意识到自己的生命终有尽头。
I think that the most immediate impact that it had maybe was just reminding me of my own mortality.
你知道，我父亲55岁突然离世，就是在机场倒下，直接因心脏病去世了。
You know, I mean, he died unexpectedly at 55, just fell over in the airport and just fell over dead, like heart attack.
所以，我想，这种对自身死亡的提醒，对我事业、生活、攀岩生涯等等，都产生了深远影响。
And so, you know, I mean, I think that that reminder of my own mortality has had a big impact on my career, my life, you know, my climbing world, whatever.
人们可能不会预期你会去从事所谓的高风险行为，因为
One might not expect you to go, quote unquote, do risky things because of
不，事实上，我认为人们之所以不敢做高风险的事，是因为他们有一个错误的观念，以为自己能永远活着。
Well, no, because the thing is, I think one of the reasons that people don't do risky things is because they have this, you know, mistaken idea that they can live forever, basically.
因为人们不想面对自己的死亡。
And basically because people don't wanna think about their own mortality.
所以他们觉得，哦，我不想冒任何风险。
And so they're like, oh, I don't wanna take any risks.
我会死的。
I could die.
但你知道，无论如何你都会死。
And you're like, you know that you're gonna die either way.
无论怎样，当你死去时，你都会遗憾没有活得更久，因为你知道，美国人的预期寿命是78岁。
And either way, when you die, you're gonna be bummed that you didn't live longer because, you know, it's like, like the life expectant in The US is 78.
你可能会想，真棒。
You're like, great.
就拿男性来说吧，不管怎样。
Say you make it for men, whatever.
就算你活到那个岁数，你还是会想，唉，真希望我能再多活22年，看着孙子孙女们大学毕业什么的。
Like, say you make it that far, you're still gonna be like, man, I wish I had twenty two more years to like watch my grandkids graduate college or whatever.
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感觉还是太短了。
It's like it's still gonna feel like too little.
所以我总觉得，与其活到78岁却一事无成，后悔没做任何想做的事，不如55岁意外去世，但一生做了许多让你自豪的事，过了一段你无悔的人生。
And so I'm kind of like, you're better off dying at 55 in an accident, but having done many things that you're proud of and, you know, like led a life that you're proud of, than dying at 78 and still wishing you had more about having done none of the things that you wanted to do.
这确实很有趣。
It is interesting.
人们似乎活得就像觉得自己会永生一样。
It does appear that people live as if we think we're gonna live forever.
是的。
Yeah.
这简直太疯狂了。
It's totally insane.
每个人都说，哦，我不敢冒险。
I mean, everyone's like, oh, I don't take any risk.
但你想想，就算你这一生从不冒险，该死的时候还是得死。
And you're like, yeah, well, you can take no risk in your life and you're still gonna freaking die.
所以你还不如采取明智的、有计算的风险，去做所有你想做的事，至少在离开时能安心满足。
So you might as well take smart calculated risks and do all the things that you wanna do and at least die happy when you go.
对你来说，有意识地生活意味着什么？
What does this mean to you to, like, live intentionally?
没错，就是这样。
Well, that's exactly it.
比如，选择你愿意承担的风险，做出决定，按照自己想要的方式使用时间。
Like, choosing the the risk that you're willing to take, making choices, like, using your time the way you want to use it.
我刚才在看，我觉得是你做的一个性格测试。
I was looking at I think it was your your personality, a personality test you did.
你说你是迈克，我是不是
You said you were Mike, did I
做过性格测试？
do a personality test?
我在想，你到底有多少素材？
I'm like, how many material do you have?
天啊。
I'm like, Jesus Christ.
你到底有多少东西啊？
Like, how many, like, things do you have?
我有无穷无尽的东西。
I have unlimited things.
我知道。
I know.
我真的很佩服。
I'm I'm so impressed.
在这份性格测试中，显示你在追求刺激和感官体验方面得分较高，同时在冲动性方面也显著高于普通男性，我认为这和你刚才说的做决定有些重叠。
On this personality test, it says you're, you know, higher on thrill seeking and sensation seeking, but then also significantly higher than the average male on urgency, which I think kind of overlays with what you were just saying there of, like, making the decision to do something.
是的。
Yeah.
基本上，因为你的生命短暂，你终将一死。
Basically, because your time is short and you're gonna die.
那赶紧开始吧。
So get on with it.
这里说你的尽责性更高。
It says here you're higher on conscientiousness.
非常有礼貌，你知道的。
Very polite, you know.
追求刺激、寻求感官体验，你对无聊的耐受度很低。
Thrill seeking, sensation seeking, you're low on boredom.
我觉得对无聊耐受度低意味着你不会感到无聊。
I think low on boredom means that, you know, you don't get bored.
坚持性？
Perseverance?
你的坚持性非常高？
You're very high on perseverance?
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得这和低无聊感是一回事。
I think that's the same as low on boredom.
还有低神经质。
And low on neuroticism.
这肯定没错。
That's for sure.
那神经质这个词的定义是什么？
And so what's your what is what's the definition of the word neuroticism?
是不是像，嗯，
Is it like Well,
像这种，我确信有临床定义，但我认为它指的是那种普遍的焦虑类型，比如人们脑子里不停地纠结一些无关紧要的事情。
things like the well, I'm sure there's a clinical definition, but I think of it as sort of general anxiety type stuff, like, you know, people spinning in their heads about things that don't matter.
当你回顾自己的一生，回想小时候和青少年时期得到的反馈时，这种情况一直如此吗？
And has that always been the case when you look back through your life and the feedback you've had as a kid and a teenager?
有点吧。
Kind of.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我觉得是的。
I think so.
我觉得我从未太在意过，我不会胡思乱想。
I think I've never been too concerned about I I don't spin.
我的意思是，当然，偶尔我也会为一些事焦虑，但那不是大多数人的方式。
I mean, obviously, you know, occasionally I stress about things, which but is not the way I think a lot of people do.
我想弄清楚，这是后天习得的行为，还是部分习得、部分来自成长环境或基因的影响。
I'm trying to figure out if that's a learned behavior or maybe a little bit learned and a little bit from your upbringing genetics, whatever it might be.
因为，这种特质能学会吗？
Because can can one learn that?
人能学会减少神经质吗？
Can one learn to be less neurotic and
嗯，大概是这样。
Well, presumably.
我的意思是，像冥想之类的事情。
I mean, like meditation, things like that.
我认为人们可以找到方法放下某些事情。
I think people can sort of find a way to let go of certain things.
这不是很有趣吗？
Isn't this quite quite interesting?
当人们不可避免地问你关于恐惧的问题，以及你是如何面对像我这样的人觉得恐怖的挑战时，这其中有一部分原因是你确实有一种天性，嗯。
When people ask you questions inevitably about fear and how you take on such, you know, to muddles like me, terrifying challenges, there's an element of all of this, which is you do have a nature and Mhmm.
还有后天环境，而这一点对我来说几乎不可能复制，因为你的大脑和我的大脑完全不同。
And a nurture, which somewhat is impossible for someone like me to replicate because your brain and my brain are diff completely different.
你的父母，你大脑在形成和发育初期的早期经历，都和我的完全不同。
Your parents, your early contacts, when your brain was being wired and malnated, are completely different to mine.
所以，我知道，每当给人建议时，这种困难就在于我们面对的是截然不同的天性。
So, you know, I always find this as the, like, this trouble of giving people advice is, we're dealing with different Different natures.
不同的天性。
Different natures.
但我觉得在我的情况下，天性上最大的区别是我一直都非常热爱攀岩。
But I I do feel like in my case, the biggest difference in nature is the fact that I've just always loved climbing.
你知道，我认为后天因素才是这其中的主体。
Know, because I basically, I think that nurture is is the majority of this.
就像你花了三十年去训练一件事，你肯定会越来越擅长这件事。
Like, you spend thirty years training a thing, you're gonna get better at the thing.
是的。
Mhmm.
所以我认为，我和那些对攀岩不感兴趣的人之间最大的区别在于，我超级热爱攀岩。
And so I think that the biggest difference between me and and somebody who's not into rock climbing is I freaking love rock climbing.
我如果能的话，一周练十天都没问题。
I could go I could do it ten days a week if if I could.
你明白我的意思吗？
You know what I mean?
但遗憾的是，我会太累。
But sadly, I get too tired.
我的身体会垮掉。
My body breaks down.
所以，你知道，我基本上拥有无限的精力去做这件事。
And so, you know, I could I basically have, a limitless capacity to to do the thing.
我只是非常喜欢做这件事。
I just love doing the thing.
我认为这可能是天性上最大的差异。
And I think that that is probably the biggest difference in nature.
因为其他所有东西你都可以某种程度上克服。
You Because everything else you can kind of overcome.
如果你像我热爱攀岩那样热爱攀岩，不管你的基因倾向如何，比如神经质之类的，你都会设法克服这一切，找到属于自己的攀岩高手之路。
If you loved rock climbing as much as I love rock climbing, no matter what your genetic disposition towards neuroticism and all that stuff, you would just kind of work through all that stuff and you'd find your own path to getting good at climbing, basically.
如果你的两个女儿来找你，
If your kids came to you, you have two girls.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yep.
如果他们来找你，说爸爸，你能给我点关于人生目标的建议吗？你会
If they came to and said, dad, like, give me advice on what I should aim at in life, would you
告诉他们吗？
tell them?
我不会给他们建议。
I wouldn't I wouldn't give them advice.
我会说：做你自己。
I'd be like, you do you.
找到你热爱的事情，全力以赴，掌握一些技能，变得擅长某件事。
You find the thing you love to do, go hard, you know, basically, like, some skills, get good at something.
你最喜欢做什么？
Like, what do you like to do?
我的意思是，对我来说，尤其是攀岩，如果有人告诉我，你这辈子都要训练攀岩，我会觉得，哦，这听起来挺枯燥的。
I mean, that's kind of the thing for me, especially with climbing is like, if someone had told me like you're gonna train climbing for the rest of your life, I'd be like, oh, that sounds like kind of a grind.
懂吗？
Know?
因为说实话，这确实很辛苦。
Because I mean, it is it is hard work.
你就像背着沉重的背包在爬山，天气又冷又刮风。
You're like hiking uphill with a heavy backpack and it's cold and it's windy.
基本上就是身体上很不舒服。
It's like it's basically physically uncomfortable.
我的意思是，作为一名职业攀岩者，你几乎总是处于身体不适的状态。
I mean, being a professional rock climber means that you're physically uncomfortable all the time, pretty like like often.
你知道吗？
You know?
就是，你知道的，这很难。
Like, it's, you know, it's hard.
是的。
Yeah.
但如果你是因为真心热爱才做这件事，就不会觉得很难。
But if you're doing it because you freaking love doing it, it doesn't feel very hard.
所以，我认为对孩子来说，关键是要找到那种不像是在辛苦干活的事情。
And so, I mean, I think the key for a kid is to find the thing that doesn't feel like hard work.
那你刚开始的时候，会害怕高大的岩壁之类的东西吗？
And when you started, were you scared of of big tall rock faces and stuff like that?
我的意思是，是的。
I mean, yeah.
我当时对那些岩壁确实有一种健康的敬畏感，比如我第一年在优胜美地，第一次以攀岩者身份看到酋长岩时，我才19岁，那看起来根本不可能完成。
I had, like, a healthy intimidation of the I mean, like, my first season in Yosemite, the first time seeing El Cap as a climber, I was 19, and it looks impossible.
它看起来完全疯狂。
It looks completely insane.
我当时就想，这也太大了。
I was like, that's so big.
但过了几个赛季，我爬了一些更大的岩壁，学会了攀爬技巧，然后我和一个朋友设定了一个赛季目标——整个赛季都在优胜美地攀爬，最终目标是在一天内登顶酋长岩。
But then, you know, within a couple seasons, you know, I climbed some bigger walls, learned how to climb, and then a friend and I had sort of season goal, like we were gonna climb in Yosemite all season with the aspiration at the end to climb El Cap in a day.
所以对于酋长岩来说，基本上有一个漫长的进阶过程：从最初只是尝试登顶，到尝试更快地登顶，再到只用手脚攀登，但仍使用保护装备。
So basically there was this long progression on El Cap specifically where it's like you go from just trying to get up it, to trying to get up it faster, to trying to get up it with just your hands and feet, still using protection.
但事实上，你可以一步步地前进。
But basically there's like all these steps you can take.
于是在多个赛季里，我总共登顶酋长岩约60次，走了不同的路线，尝试了各种方式。
And so over a bunch of seasons, you know, climbed to a cap like 60 times, different routes, all these different things.
然后有一天，你突然开始想：也许我可以尝试无保护独攀，这就是电影《徒手攀岩》的由来。
And then eventually you're sort of like, oh, maybe I can start thinking about free soloing it, which is where the film Free Solo comes in.
最终，你完成了这件事。
And then eventually you do this thing.
但人们会问：你难道不害怕吗？
But then people are like, well, aren't you scared?
而你只会惊讶地想：天啊，我已经花了十年时间一步步积累到这一步。
And you're kind of like, woah, I've spent ten years like building up on this thing.
我想这就是人们看不到的部分。
I guess that's what people don't see.
是的。
Yeah.
所以他们只是，我的意思是，
So they just I mean,
比如纪录片《自由独攀》很好地展示了完成那次特定攀登所需的直接准备和训练，但它并没有展现之前那八年的过程。
like the documentary Free Solo, think does a pretty good job of showing the direct preparation, like the training involved in doing that specific climb, but it just doesn't show the, like eight years before that, I guess.
因为这部纪录片拍摄了两年，而我想我从2006年就开始去了。
Because the documentary was filmed over two years and I guess I've been going since 2006.
所以在那之前九年，我就一直在优胜美地，每年大概花三个月时间攀爬岩壁。
So it was nine years before that, that I've been going to Yosemite and I've been spending maybe three months a year climbing walls.
我想这就是人们对那些成就非凡的人——比如运动员、短跑选手之类的——产生的错觉，像C罗或梅西，你看不到他们背后
I guess that's the illusion of like all people that do great things and become like athletes or sprinters or whatever, Ronaldo or Messi, is you don't get to see the
是的，他们为做这件事所投入的整个人生。
Yeah, the whole life that they put into doing the thing.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
所以当我们看到结果时，它看起来就像一个魔术。
So it looks it looks like a magic trick when we see the outcome.
当我们打开Netflix观看你攀登台北时，我们会说：哇。
When we show up show up on Netflix to watch you climb Taipei, we're like, woah.
是的。
Yeah.
他仅用一条腿吊着身体。
He's hanging with it from his leg.
是的。
Yeah.
人们看这些节目时，会觉得他只是走上去就完成了。
Mean, people watch some of those programs and they're like, he just walked up and did it.
然后你就说，嗯，经过三十年的练习，我就是走上去就完成了。
And you're like, well, yeah, after thirty years of practice, like, I just walked up and did it.
不，这可不是简单地走上去就完成了。
No, it's not like just walking up and doing it.
那什么是
What are the
有趣的是，是的。
interesting yeah.
我 literally 每周爬五天，已经持续了三十年。
Like, I've literally been climbing five days a week for thirty years.
这可是大量的攀爬啊。
Like, that's so much climbing.
我真的超爱攀爬，而且我爬得非常多。
Like, I freaking love climbing, and I I climb a lot.
关于这种暴露疗法，涉及到恐惧、焦虑以及直面让人害怕的事物，早期的时候是不是这样？我想理解一下。
On this on this idea of, like, exposure therapy as it relates to, like, fear and anxiety and confronting one's things that terrify them, was that in the early days where you I'm trying to understand.
你有没有在某个时候感到害怕？
Were you, like, scared at some point?
哦，一直都在。
Oh, all
一直都是。
the time.
这其实是我认为你做过很多关于恐惧和应对恐惧的采访，对吧。
That's actually something that I think I've you obviously done so many interviews around fear and managing fear and all that.
多年来，我以各种方式谈论过恐惧。
And I've talked about fear a lot of different ways over the years.
随着年龄增长，我逐渐意识到，作为攀岩者，你其实一直都在害怕。
And I think as I've gotten older, I've sort of come to realize that actually you're just scared all the time as a climber.
一种低强度的恐惧，但攀岩本质上就是令人害怕的。
Low level fear, low but climbing is fundamentally scary.
因为它总是伴随着后果，所以一直都有点吓人。
Like, it's always kind of scary because there always consequences.
比如，即使你系着绳子攀爬，你还是会不断想象，如果绳子断了会怎样？
Like, even if you're climbing with a rope, you're still always visualizing, like, what happens if the rope breaks?
比如，你知道的，这安全吗？
Like, what if, you know, like, is this safe?
比如，你知道的，装备靠谱吗？
Like, you know, is the gear good?
这真的安全吗？
Like, is this actually safe?
所以你总是有点害怕。
And so you're always a little bit scared.
经过这么多年一直处在恐惧中，你就会变得非常擅长处理这种情绪。
And so after years and years of always being scared, you get pretty good at managing that kind of stuff.
因为关于你做的那个脑部扫描，外面有很多误解在流传。
Because there's a lot of sort of misconception swirling around this brain scan you've
是的。
Yeah.
我知道。
I know.
我讨厌所有这些东西。
I hate all that stuff.
这完全是来自电影《徒手攀岩》的内容。
That's just all from the film Free Solo.
是的。
Yeah.
电影里的这个场景太短了。
It was like too short of a scene in the film.
他们需要再多一点内容。
They needed a little more.
他们应该让节奏慢一点，你知道的，解释得更清楚些，我
They need to let it breathe, you know, explain things a little better, I
觉得。
think.
所以他们扫描了一名对照组受试者。
So they scanned a control subject.
另一个人扫描了你，观察了你大脑中的杏仁核。
Another person scanned you, looked at the amygdala in your brain.
许多人得出的结论是，你不会感到恐惧，因为当他们查看这两张脑部扫描图时，你在看到恐怖图像时，杏仁核的活跃度较低。
And the the conclusion that a lot of people have arrived at is that you don't experience fear because when they look at these two brain scans, your amygdala is lighting up less when you're shown scary images, basically.
对吧？
Right?
但比如说，只展示这张图像，这到底意味着什么？
But, like, shown just this image, like, what does that even mean?
我的大脑是紫色的，他的大脑是橙色的。
Like, my brain's purple and his brain is orange.
你就会想，呃，这到底代表什么？
You're like, you know, like, what does that mean?
我不懂。
Like, I don't know.
但不是这样的。
But, no.
我的意思是，关键在于，我真希望这部电影能更好地解释这一点：我们正在fMRI设备里看到的是黑白照片。
I mean, the the thing is though, and this is what I wish was explained in the film better, is that this is we're being shown black and white photos inside an fMRI.
所以你身处一个封闭的金属管中。
So you're inside a sealed metal tube.
你完全安全。
You're totally safe.
你身体上安全又舒适，同时正看着黑白照片。
You're physically safe and comfortable, and you're being shown black and white photos.
所以对我来说，显然这不会激发我大脑的恐惧反应，因为你只是在看图片，心里想：这有什么大不了的？
And so to me, obviously, that's not gonna light up the fear response to my brain because you're looking at pictures, you're like, who cares?
我完全安全。
I'm totally safe.
但在对照组受试者身上，他们的大脑似乎会对这些图像产生某种反应。
But in a control subject, apparently, your brain sort of responds to images one way or another.
但我其实想说，我爬了二十年的山，早就吓过很多次了。
But I'm kinda like, I've been climbing for twenty years, so I've been scared quite a lot.
而你可能会想，如果你二十年来一直处在恐惧中，黑白照片的冲击力就会逐渐减弱。
And you're kind of like, well, black and white photos start to lose lose their edge if you've been scared all the time for twenty years.
所以很明显，这不会引发多少反应。
So it's like, obviously, that's not gonna trigger much.
是的。
Yeah.
而且我想象每个人在生活中都能想到一个自己已经驾轻就熟的场景，比如一个脱口秀演员站在舞台上，可能并不会像我这么害怕。
And I imagine everybody in their life can think of it as a scenario where they have mastery that would like a stand up comedian looking out at a stage probably wouldn't be as scared as me.
对。
Yeah.
因为那场面真的会把我吓坏。
Because that would that would terrify me.
所以，这并不一定是一种神经学上的
So, again, this is not necessarily some sort of neurological
不。
No.
我的意思是，真正的启示是我有杏仁核，而且它在正常工作。
I mean, I think the real takeaway is that I have an amygdala, and it works.
嗯。
Mhmm.
你明白我的意思吗？
You know what I mean?
因为我觉得，如果结果表明我缺少杏仁核，那我早在年轻时就该死了，因为我根本无法像普通人一样正常生活。
Like, because I think if if the results had shown that I was missing my amygdala, then I would have all kinds of I would have died already at youth because I wouldn't be able to function as a as a human, basically.
但你知道，如果结果显示出某种结构性差异或重大变化，那倒还说得通；但这个结果其实只是表明，经过二十年的训练，我的反应和普通人不一样。
But, you know, had it shown something like that where there are, structural differences or, some real change, But this is basically just showing that after twenty years of conditioning, I respond differently than an average person.
然后你就说，是啊，这有什么奇怪的。
And you're like, yeah, no kidding.
比如，如果你让一个僧人去做功能性核磁共振，他的大脑反应也会和普通人完全不同。
Like if you put a monk into an fMRI, their brain responds totally differently than an average person as well.
我觉得这是一个非常鼓舞人心的结论，因为它意味着我们都能更好地掌控自己的恐惧。
Which I actually think is a really inspiring conclusion because it means that we can all grasp our fears better.
而且，你知道，人们可能不知道这一点，但十年前，我坐在朋友阿什的公寓里，对着摄像机录了一段两分钟的视频。
And even, you know, people won't know this about me, but ten years ago, I sat down on camera with my friend Ash in his apartment to record a two minute video.
当我坐在那里时，我太害怕了，根本说不出话来。
And as I sat there, I couldn't I was so scared I couldn't get the words out.
所以在最终发布的这段两分钟视频里，你能看到背景从白天变成黑夜，因为我们为了让我讲完这两分钟，反复剪辑了七个小时。
So you actually in this two minute video that comes out, you see it go from night and day in the background just because we did that many cuts over seven hours trying to get me to say two minutes on camera.
显然，经过十年的镜头前经验，我现在已经能从容不迫地讲话了。
And obviously, after ten years of being on camera, I can now speak without shitting myself.
我想象我的大脑状态因为这种暴露疗法而发生了显著变化。
And I imagine my brain state looks significantly different because of our exposure therapy.
完全正确。
Totally.
是的。
Yeah.
你应该去做个fMRI。
You should do the fMRI.
你，是的。
You Yeah.
你十年前就该做了，那样你就有对照数据了，现在再做一次，结果肯定会完全不同。
You should have done ten years ago because then you'd have your control, and then you do it now and it'd be totally different.
但我也找过一些心理学家交流，他们会证实这一点。
But also the psychologists I've sat with will confirm this.
他们谈论的是暴露疗法。
They talk about exposure therapy.
是的。
Yeah.
我在公众演讲方面也经历了完全相同的过程。
And and I went through exactly the same thing with public speaking.
我一直都非常害怕公众演讲。
Like, I was always so afraid of public speaking.
我当时也很害羞，简直让人害怕得要命。
I was also very shy and like, just not like it was terrifying.
但自从免费攀登纪录片巡演以来，还有之后我做过的所有公开活动，我现在基本上已经没问题了。
And now because of the free solo film tour and, you know, all the public things I've done since then, I'm like, basically fine.
你懂的？
You know?
所以你还是会有点紧张，但现在已经基本不费劲了。
So you still got a little nervous, but it's like basically easy now.
你就会觉得，这真是天翻地覆的变化。
And you're kind of like, well, that's a total change.
显然，人类拥有巨大的学习能力。
It's like, obviously, there's a tremendous capacity for humans to learn.
人们总是跟你谈论恐惧，因为你的工作
People talk to you about fear all the time because I mean, your work
毕竟气候变化真的非常吓人。
because climate's really freaking scary.
这说得通。
It makes sense.
完全可以理解。
It's totally understandable.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为，他们在内心深处也意识到，阻碍他们成为自己理想中或渴望成为的人的，往往是恐惧。
They also realize, I think, at some deep level that the thing holding them back from who they think they wanna be or who they aspire to be is fear often.
是他人的评判。
It's judgment of someone else.
是冒险。
It's taking a risk.
完全正确。
Totally.
所以你已经成为许多人眼中的‘告诉我’型人物。
So you've become, for many people, the like, tell me.
告诉我如何克服恐惧。
Tell me how to overcome.
是的。
Yeah.
我想每个人都想知道，你克服恐惧的秘诀是什么？
Well, I think that everyone's like, what's your hack to overcome fear?
而你的回答是，根本没有秘诀。
And you're like, there's no hack.
你就是一遍又一遍地感到极度恐惧，持续很长时间，直到最后它不再那么可怕了。
You just get really freaking scared over and over for so long, and eventually it's not that scary anymore.
但我要说的是，这是一种非常持久的克服恐惧的方式。
But I will say that that's like a very enduring way to overcome your fear.
如果你愿意经历这个过程，那你实际上就已经无所畏惧了。
It's like if you're willing to go through that process, then you are actually unafraid.
你知道的。
You know?
因为你可以用一些技巧。
Because like you can do like hacks.
我的意思是，你可以放点震耳欲聋的摇滚乐，然后直接冲上去。
I mean, you can you can, like, crank up loud rock music and just go for it.
你知道的。
You know?
比如在我所谓的借助重力的运动中，就有不少这样的例子。
Like and there are plenty of examples of that in in what I'd call gravity assisted sports.
比如说，你要从悬崖上滑雪跳下去，快到边缘时会想：这太吓人了，然后心里数三、二、一，直接跳出去。
Like, say, if you're gonna jump a cliff on skis, like, can get to the edge and be like, this is really scary, and then be like, three, two, one, do it, and just, like, go.
在攀岩中，你很难这么做，因为过程太慢了。
In climbing, you can't really do that as much because it's so slow.
当你攀岩时，你做一个动作，然后再做下一个动作。
Like when you climb, you make one move and then you make another move.
然后你就想，我还想待在这儿吗？
And then you're like, Do I still want to be here?
基本上，恐惧会更多地渗透进来。
Like basically fear creeps in a lot more.
但在重力辅助运动中，你可能会有更多这样的时刻——直接战胜恐惧，然后事情就发生了。
But sort of in gravity assisted sports, can have more of that moment where you just like overcome your fear and then it happens.
比如在皮划艇或滑雪时做一次大落差，类似这样的情况。
You know, like making a big drop in a kayak or like skis or things like that.
一旦你下定决心，事情就只能朝一个方向发展了。
Where it's like once you commit, it's happening one way or another.
总之，这里面有很多值得探讨的地方，
Anyway, there's a lot to get into it,
不。
No.
但我是真的想深入了解。
But I mean, I wanna get into it.
我看过一段你攀登酋长岩的视频，我想是那个。
I watched a video of you climbing Half Dome, I think it was.
是的。
Yeah.
看起来你爬到一半时害怕了，是吗？
And it looks like you got scared halfway up or?
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
其实那段视频是后来拍的。
Well, so that video is actually filmed later.
视频里的旁白是我讲述自己独自自由攀登时的经历。
So the voice over in that video is me talking about the experience of me free soloing when I was totally alone.
我在酋长岩上真的非常害怕，快到顶峰时还经历了一次相当创伤性的心理冲击。
And I did get really scared on Half Dome and I had this whole somewhat traumatic climate experience near the top of the wall.
但当我们回去拍摄时，在拍摄过程中我经历了另一次创伤性事件。
But then when we went back to film it, I had a different traumatic experience while we were filming.
没那么严重，但那一刻确实非常吓人。
Less traumatic, but, but like very scary for a moment.
他们把那个场景拍了下来。
And they got that on camera.
所以他们在电影里基本上把这两个片段剪辑在一起了，因为这展现了我非常害怕的样子。
So they basically, in the film, they just cut the two together as like, because it shows me like being really scared.
Half Dome是什么？然后那次悲剧性经历是什么？
What's Half Dome to And start then what was the tragic experience?
是的。
Yeah.
对于没看过的人，Half Dome是优胜美地里一面令人惊叹的岩壁。
So Half Dome, for anyone who hasn't seen, is this just totally amazing wall in Yosemite.
它是一面2000英尺高的花岗岩峭壁。
It's a 2,000 foot granite face.
实际上，那是北面品牌的标志。
Actually, it's the North Face logo.
哦，天哪，那就是半圆顶。
It's a Oh, it's freaking it's That's Half Dome.
哦，明白了。
Oh, okay.
是的。
Yeah.
所以它是优胜美地一个标志性的岩壁。
So it's like an iconic wall in Yosemite.
它看起来像半个圆顶，但其实更像一个被塞进去的曲棍球 puck。
It looks like half of a dome, but actually it's more like a hockey puck just shoved in.
实际上，从某个角度看，它是一个完整的圆顶。
It's actually a full dome, depending how you look at it.
但西北面垂直高度达2000英尺。
But the Northwest face is vertical for 2,000 feet.
这太不可思议了。
It's incredible.
于是我进行了无保护独攀。
And so I free soloed.
这是我在2008年完成的首批重大无保护独攀之一。
Was one of the first, like, major free solos I did in 2008.
这也某种程度上让我成为了一名职业攀岩者。
And one of the things that sort of made me a professional climber in a way.
但当我进行这次攀登时，我只做了最少的准备。
But when I did the climb, I did the bare minimum preparation.
我基本上什么都不知道。
I basically, like, didn't know.
这是我迄今为止进行过的最大的一次无保护独攀。
It was it was the biggest thing I'd ever free soloed.
我并不太清楚该如何为它做准备。
I didn't quite know how to, like, go about getting ready for it.
总之，我爬了上去，但根本没练够。
Anyway, I I climbed it and basically hadn't practiced enough.
我吓得要死。
I was really freaking scared.
偏离了路线，搞混了，跳过了一些部分。
Got off route, got confused, skipped some stuff.
到了顶端时，我经历了一整段极度恐慌的时刻，你知道的？
And then at the very top had this whole moment of extreme panic, you know?
基本上，我爬到上面时，心理完全崩溃了，勉强才完成了这段上部岩壁。
Basically, I got up into some stuff and all sort of, like, crumbled mentally and, like, sort of barely managed to finish this upper slab.
整段攀爬最难的部分就在快到顶的时候。
Like the hardest part of the climb was like right near the top.
我正试着走过这条岩架。
I was trying to walk across this ledge.
我基本上是面朝内和面朝外都走过这条岩架。
Basically, I've walked across that ledge face in and face out.
通常人们会横向移动过去，或者爬过去。
And normally people hand traverse it or they crawl across it.
跨越这个 ledge 有好几种方式，我都试过所有方法。
There are like different ways to go across the ledge and I've done it every which way.
然后我们在上面拍摄时，我想：好吧，我要面朝外走过去。
And then we were up there filming and I was like, oh, I'm gonna walk it face out.
但事实上，当你面朝外走时，真的特别吓人。
But it turns out when you walk it face out, it's really freaking scary.
所以我走到一半左右，心想：天哪，然后就退回来了。
And so I made it kind of halfway and was like, oh my gosh, and then bailed.
当你说到你内心出现危机时，那到底是什么意思？
And when you say you're having like a like a crisis in your your mind, what does what is that?
是那种‘天啊，我这是在干嘛’的感觉吗？你的意思是，那听起来是怎样的？
Is that just, oh my god, what am I like, how does that sound when you Well, mean,
在这种情况下，走过这条 ledge 时，它一开始可能只有脚那么宽，你的脚完全踩在 ledge 上，然后你慢慢挪过去。
so in this case, so walking across this ledge, it's like it starts maybe as a foot wide, so your foot is fully on the ledge and you're shuffling across it.
但到了某个点，是的，我的意思是，那就是那个
But then at a certain point, yeah, I mean, that's that's Put the
给正在观看的观众把视频放到屏幕上。
video on the screen for anyone watching.
是的，那就是那个 ledge。
Yeah, that's that's the ledge.
但在最狭窄的部分，你的脚会悬在边缘外，而墙壁会略微向外凸出，迫使你的背部稍微后倾。
But basically at the narrowest part, your feet are sticking out over the lip of it and the wall bulges ever so slightly, so it forces your back out a little.
所以你基本上是用脚后跟摇晃着，下面就是大约1700英尺或1800英尺的垂直悬崖。
And so you're basically like rocking on your heels with, I don't know, like a 1,700 foot drop or something or 1,800 foot drop, like straight down below you.
所以，你知道，这感觉非常强烈。
And so, you know, it's like pretty, it's pretty intense.
总之，我本来打算那样走过去，但走到凸出部分时，突然意识到：天啊，这不适合我，于是赶紧侧身挪了回去，改变了策略。
Anyway, and so I thought I was going to walk across it like that and I made it to the bulging part and was suddenly like, oh my God, this isn't like, this isn't for me, and then managed to, like, shuffle back and and change my strategy.
是那种在脑子里恐慌的感觉吗？
Is it, like, panic in your head?
这不是恐慌，但你会想，哦，天啊，我选错了。
It's not panic, but you're like, oh, oh, I made the wrong choice.
这下糟了。
Like, this is bad.
这下糟了。
This is bad.
你知道的？
You know?
我的意思是，这并不是那种五级警报式的、彻底的恐慌。
I mean, it's not like full, like, five alarm bell, like, panic panic.
但没错，你会想，我完蛋了。
But, yeah, you're like, oh, I'm so screwed.
你以前也从很远的地方摔下去过。
And you have fallen a long long way before.
我听说你小时候从一座山上摔下去，还设法给妈妈打了电话。
I was hearing it by the time when you were young and you fell off a a mountain and managed to call your mother.
是的。
Yeah.
那就像滑下一座结冰的滑道一样。
That was like sliding down an icy cooler type thing.
这和从悬崖上自由坠落不太一样，更像是滑下一座山。
It's a little different than like free falling off of a cliff that's like sliding down a mountain.
但没错，我伤得挺严重的，而且确实如此。
But yeah, I got totally messed up and yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
我小时候从各种东西上摔下来，胳膊都断过好几次。
And I've like broken my arm several times as a kid falling off things.
作为攀岩者，当你有保护装置时，经常要经历大摔落。
And then with a rope as a climber, you take big falls routinely when you have protection.
这基本上就是这项运动的一部分。
That's part of the sport, basically.
我的意思是，想象一下从700英尺高处坠落确实很容易。
I mean, it's certainly easy to visualize falling 700.
当你站在一个小平台上，身体前倾，往下看时，很容易就会想：天哪。
When you're standing on a little ledge and you're just bulging and you're looking down, know, it's easy to be like, oh my god.
你知道，只要你稍微往前一倾，就会像跳水一样直接摔下七百英尺到地面。
You know, it's like if you just bend forward a little bit, you're just gonna take a swan dive, like, seventy hundred feet to the ground.
这项运动的死亡统计数据，我的意思是，死亡率如何？
The stats in this sport are, I mean, of of fatalities.
和其他运动相比，它的死亡率怎么样？
How do they compare to other sports?
比你想象的要安全。
Safer than you would think.
大家都觉得这很疯狂，但实际上没那么可怕。
That's the is everyone thinks it seems crazy, but it's not that crazy.
我不知道确切的统计数据，但我猜它和滑雪之类运动的危险程度差不多。
I don't know actual statistics, but I suspect that it's actually pretty comparable to skiing or something.
你知道，业余滑雪者经常出事，比如掉进树穴或者从悬崖背面摔下去之类的。
You know, because recreational skiers die all the time, like falling in tree wells or going off cliffs backs and things like that.
攀岩实际上出人意料地安全，这也是我喜欢攀岩的原因之一。
Climbing is actually surprisingly safe, which is one of the things I love about climbing.
我的意思是，攀岩非常二元化，要么你完全安全，要么你就死定了。
I mean, climbing is very it's very sort of binary where it's like either you're totally safe or you're gonna die.
而你丧命的概率非常、非常、非常小。
And the odds of you dying are very, very, very small.
但因为这些风险确实存在，它们总能让你保持警觉。
But because they're they're there, they always keep you on.
你明白我的意思吗？
You know what I mean?
它基本上能让你保持警觉，但你实际上根本不会受伤。
Like, it basically keeps you alert, but you're never really gonna get hurt.
这包括自由独攀吗？
Is that including free soloing?
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，大部分情况下是这样。
I mean, for the most part.
我的意思是，确实有几个人在自由独攀时丧生。
I mean, couple people have died free soloing.
我的意思是，确实偶尔有人在自由独攀时丧生。
I mean, people occasionally die free soloing for sure.
但实际上，大多数前沿的自由独攀者并没有在独攀中丧生。
But actually most of the sort of cutting edge free soloists have not died soloing.
他们是在其他事情中去世的。
They've like died in other things.
我认为在Netflix纪录片《自由独攀》中，你的一个同事确实提到过。
I think it was then in the the documentary on Netflix, Free Solo, where one of your colleagues Yeah.
汤米说，现在大多数自由独攀者都死了，这在某种程度上是对的，但表述有点偏差。
Tommy Tommy is like, most free solos are dead now, which is kind of true, but it's slightly miss misstated.
我的意思是，你知道，他只是随口一说，并不完全准确。
I mean, you know, he's just, like, speaking off the cuff, and it's not, like, strictly true.
尽管一些最顶尖的自由攀登者确实是在自由攀登时去世的，但他们死在了非常简单的岩壁上。
Like a couple of the best free solos have died free soloing, though they died on very easy terrain.
但其他许多伟大的自由攀登者其实死于与攀岩相关的意外，比如翼装跳伞，还有一位是在海边悬崖边站立时，被突如其来的巨浪卷入大海。
But then the majority of other great free solos have died in sort of climbing adjacent accidents, like wingsuit base jumping and like one got swept to sea by a rogue wave, like while he was out climbing a sea cliff, but he was like standing on shore and got swept out to sea.
你知道，类似这样的情况，显然他们一生都在冒险，最终丧生，但并不是人们以为的那种方式。
You know, things like that where you're kind of like, you know, obviously they're taking risks in their lives and they wind up dead, but it's not the way that people think.
你看到那样的照片，就会想，自由攀登路线。
Know, you see a photo like that and you're like, free soul line.
你肯定会死。
You're gonna die for sure.
但他们其实会说，人们并不真的那样死去。
And they're kinda like, well, people don't actually really die that way.
我的意思是，他们确实死过。
I mean, they they have.
我的意思是，不是说这种情况不会发生，而是发生的频率远低于人们想象的。
I mean, not to say that it doesn't happen, but way less frequently than people would suspect.
如果我要故意，比如说，专业地折磨你，当然我不是在说极端情况，但我会让你过怎样的生活？
If I was to try and, like, you know, professionally torture you, and, again, I'm not talking in extremes here, but what life would I prescribe you to live?
哦，就像个金融圈的家伙之类的。
Oh, being like a finance bro or something.
一辈子就得对着电子表格工作。
Having to, like, just work spreadsheets my whole life.
你是指这个吗？
Is that what mean?
我的意思是，我最糟糕的处境会是什么样，我不知道。
Like, what what is my, like, worst I don't know.
类似那样的生活。
Something like that.
或者老实说，当个舞蹈编导之类的。
Or honestly, being like a choreographer for dance or something.
我是说，我根本没法当歌剧歌手，那样我会
Like, I just couldn't do like or or being like an opera singer, like, I would
直接去死。
just kill myself.
我根本做不到那样。
I just couldn't do that.
为什么当个金融精英会是亚历克斯最糟糕的处境呢？
Why why would being a finance pro be, like, the worst thing for Alex?
就是想象自己坐在隔间里，对着电脑不停地打字。
Just the idea of sitting at a computer in a cubicle, just, like, typing.
我的性格有点反叛。
I mean, I'm kind of contrarian.
我不喜欢规则。
I don't like rules.
我不想总去迎合那些繁文缛节。
I don't want to like jump through hoops.
我不想做那些随意的事情。
I don't want do arbitrary things.
比如，我不希望有个经理跑来告诉我，嘿，你得再交一遍这份报告。
Like, I don't want some manager to come and tell me like, oh, you got to file that report again.
你漏掉了一行。
You like missed a line.
我会想，你去追吧，你知道的，我直接就走出大楼了。
I'd be like, you go after so, you know, I'd just like walk out of the building.
就是，我觉得，我不确定自己能不能忍受那样。
Like, it's just, I was like, don't know if I could take that.
就是，不行。
Be like, no.
但那正是世界上大多数人生活的方式。
But that's like how most of the world live.
我们其实都活在这样的环境中，你知道的
We kinda we all live in like, you know
我只是不确定这是否适合我。
I just don't know if it's for me.
我不知道。
I don't know.
我的意思是，这难道不就是感觉吗？我有过这样的时刻。
I mean, doesn't that just seem I mean, I had this moment.
我在纽约待了几天，然后坐地铁下去见了一些朋友。
I've been in New York a couple days, and I I took the subway down to see some see some friends.
我刚从隧道出来，里面挤满了人。
And I was like coming out of the tunnel and it's like packed with people.
我只是低头看着地面，跟着别人的脚步，走上这条被踩得坑坑洼洼的楼梯。
And I was just like looking at the ground and I was like, just, you know, following someone else's footsteps up this like beat down path of stairs.
我当时就想，我无法这样生活。
And I was like, I couldn't live like this.
不是日复一日、天天如此地生活。
Like not day in and day out every day.
就像这种感觉，你觉得自己和周围的人在做着完全相同的事情。
Like this is just like, feeling like you're just doing the exact same thing as everyone else around you.
我觉得，哦，这看起来太无聊了。
I'm like, oh, it seems so so boring.
这很有趣，因为这么多人看着你的生活都会说，哇。
It's funny because so so many of us look at your life and go, wow.
这并不寻常。
That's not very normal.
但事实上，也许在根本层面上，你过着比我们更正常的生活，我是说，你身处大自然中，身体也在活动。
But actually, maybe at a foundational level, you're living a much more normal life than, I mean, you're out in nature, you're moving your body.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
从那个角度来看，确实如此。
In that in that way, for sure.
我就是去经历一些酷炫的冒险，出门走走，我不知道怎么说。
I'm like going on cool adventures and going out and I don't know.
我认为这也是你的生活如此吸引人的原因之一，尤其是当你看了《徒手攀岩》之后，你确实给人一种自由自在的感觉，而我们大多数人本质上并不自由。
I think that's also part of what the the sort of attraction allure with your life, especially when you watch Free Solo is, you do seem to be a free man in a way where most of us aren't free, essentially.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，某种程度上，我们所有人都在向往这种状态。
I mean, I think we're all sort of aspiring to that to some extent.
但大多数人会认为，这不过是他们一年一次的假期罢了。
I mean, most people see that though as, like, they get their vacation for the year.
他们计划着某天退休，然后才能获得自由。
They they're planning to retire at some point, and then they're going have their freedom.
而你可能会说，嗯，我不确定。
And you're kind of like, well, I don't know.
我的意思是，也许你得尽可能地这样生活。
I mean, maybe you got to try to live that way as much as possible.
如果你的两个女儿，琼和爱丽丝，跑来问你：爸爸，什么是富有意义的人生？
If your young girls came up to you, June and Alice, and said, Dad, what is a meaningful life?
比如，过一种充实而有意义的生活，其基本原则是什么？
Like what are the principles of living a fulfilling, meaningful life?
你会给她们什么建议吗？
Would you give them advice there?
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我的意思是，我会和她们进行一场漫长、零散、持续好几天的对话，但我想，追求自己的目标无疑是拥有有意义人生的核心之一。
I mean, it'd be a long, rambling, multi day conversation with them about but I mean, following your own goals is is, I think, you know, certainly one of the the cores of having a meaningful life.
比如，拥有你认为有价值的东西。
Like, having things that you find valuable.
我的意思是，真正地按照你的价值观生活，找到对你重要的事情，并尽你所能去追求它们。
I mean, really, like, living in line with your values, finding things that are important to you and pursuing them with as much as you can give them.
当你回顾自己二十多岁到三十多岁的那段时光，看起来你有点像在过一种佛教式的生活。
You when you look at your early you see twenties to thirties, it kinda looks like you're living like a Buddhist a little bit.
我的意思是，是的，我曾经有一次旅行，他们叫我和尚。
I mean, yeah, I went on a trip once where they called me the monk.
那只是因为我过着一种非常静坐的生活方式。
It's just because I was living such a sort of a seated lifestyle.
我当时一直在读书，我从不喝酒，也不喜欢派对，纯粹是个人偏好，不管怎样。
I was like reading I've never I don't drink and I don't like party and I don't just for personal preference, whatever.
所以我只是住在自己的小房车里，不停地读书和攀岩。
And so I'm just like living in my little van and reading books and climbing all the time.
这些就是我喜欢做的事情，你知道的。
Those are the things that I'm into doing, know?
就是，嗯，就是做那些
It's like, it's, yeah, it's just doing what
你想做的事情。
you wanna do.
你曾经感到过抑郁吗？
Have you ever been depressed or?
是的。
Yeah.
可能不是那种严重的临床抑郁症，但确实会时不时地陷入一种状态，比如：我在做什么？为什么？我的目标是什么？
Probably not like deep clinical depression, but there's certainly periods from time to time where you're just like, what am I doing or why or what are my goals?
你知道，对我来说，最让人沮丧的是，我把整个人生都押在了追求卓越上，时刻都想做到最好。
You know, what's and I think to me, the most depressing thing is that, you know, I've put like my whole life in a climate, like trying to be the best you can be all the time.
有时候你付出了巨大的努力，却看不到任何成果。
And sometimes you put tons of effort in and you just don't see results.
不知为什么，你就是表现得很差。
Like, for whatever reason, you just suck.
你会想：我这么努力，却还是达不到我想成为的样子。
You're like, I'm trying so hard and I'm just like not as good as I wanna be.
这确实很有挑战性，但我想，每个人都会在某种程度上遇到这种情况：你努力做一件事，却始终得不到想要的结果。
And like, that's challenging, you know, but that's I mean, everybody faces that to some extent where you're like, I'm working hard at a thing, but I'm just not achieving the results that I want.
在二十到三十岁之间，那段事业尚未起步的空白期，你的纪录片还没上映，你也没登顶台北，靠攀岩你到底能挣多少钱？
And between the between that the sort of that period of no man's of 20 and 30 where your career hasn't taken off yet, the documentary is not out, you've not climbed Taipei, how much money are you earning from climbing?
我的意思是，最初几年……
I mean, the first
我头几年的收入来自北面公司赞助，我记得第一年大概是每年一万美元。
my first couple years my spouse showed through The North Face was, like I think my first year was, like, 10 k a year.
我当时觉得这太棒了，因为我住在车里。
I was like, this is amazing because I was living in my car.
当你一个人住在房车里时，每年赚一万美元，基本已经绰绰有余了。
And, you know, making $10 when you live by yourself in a van is, more than you need, basically.
当然，后来收入肯定涨了，但头几年，收入基本就在一万到十万这个区间。
It obviously went up beyond that at some point, but it was, you know, like in the 10 to 100 range for the first, for the whole, yeah, for years.
然后某一天，收入开始增加了。
And then at some point it increases.
是的，之后收入就增加了。
Yeah, and then it increases.
我的意思是，自由独攀显然是个大事。
I mean, then free solo is obviously like a big thing.
这打开了各种机会，因为我开始做企业演讲之类的事情。
And that sort of opened up all these opportunities because then I started doing corporate speaking and stuff like that.
我相信你也很清楚，这完全是另一个世界。
And I mean, as I'm sure you know, that's just like a whole different world.
所以你从仅仅靠赞助商赚钱，转变为从其他公司赚钱。
And so then you go from just like making some money from sponsors to like making money from from other corporations.
于是你就想，好吧。
So then you're like, okay.
现在你开始赚钱了。
Now you're making some money.
当我听你讲述一些令人惊叹的攀岩故事时，我一直在思考，想象和准备在其中扮演了什么角色，以及这些经验如何能应用到我的生活中。
One of the things when I was I was hearing you talk about some of your incredible climbing stories is I was trying to understand what role visualization or or your preparation plays and how that's, like, transferable to to me and my life.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我们之前稍微聊了聊你为LCAP做了多少准备。
We talked a little bit about just how much preparation you did for something like LCAP.
但听起来你真的把挑战分解成了更小的部分，对。
But you you it sounds like you really break down the challenge into smaller bits Mhmm.
然后逐一完成这些步骤。
And then really go through those those individual steps.
很多人一看见酋长岩就会说，天哪。
A lot of people would just look at El Cap and go, oh my god.
他们会感到恐惧，觉得这根本不可能。
They'd be terrified, and that's impossible.
是的。
Yeah.
这很合理。
Which is fair.
我的意思是，我花了好几年看着酋长岩，觉得它太庞大了。
I mean, I spent years looking at El Cap and being like, that's too big.
这根本不可能。
That's impossible.
然后，你知道吗，在经历了这么多年之后，我一直希望有一天我看它时，它会突然变得简单起来，我会想，太棒了。
And then, you know, after years of that, I kept hoping that I would look at it and it would, like, look easy somehow, I'd like, cool.
现在我要去做了。
Now I'm gonna do it.
但它就是从来都不显得简单。
And it just never looked easy.
所以最后，我想，好吧。
And so then finally, was like, okay.
我必须真正下功夫去完成它。
I'm gonna have to, like, put some real work into it.
然后我开始慢慢把它分解。
And then I started slowly breaking it down.
一旦你把它拆成小块并开始逐一攻克，你就会觉得，好吧。
And and and then once you, like, break it into pieces and start working on pieces, then you're kinda like, okay.
它开始显得更合理了。
It starts to feel more reasonable.
把它分解成小块，然后逐个处理。
Break it into pieces and start working on the pieces.
这在攀岩中意味着什么？
What does that mean in terms of climbing?
所以，我的意思是，我这里有个模型，是的。
So if we I mean, I've got this this model here of Yeah.
类型一。
Type o one.
所以
So
而且，你知道，这也适用于我生活中的任何挑战。
and, you know, and this is also a metaphor for any challenge I have in my
生活。
life.
但这其实很完美，因为它就在这里。
But this is actually perfect because it's right here.
是的。
Yeah.
我在去年九月就考察过这个地方。
So I scouted this in September year.
我在一月或者差不多的时候完成了攀登。
I did the climb in January or whatever.
在九月，我们去了一趟，嗯，我们必须先确认这件事是否可行，然后再决定是否要为此拍摄整个电视节目。
In September, we went and, well, we had to, like, make sure it was possible before you sort of, like, commit to it doing a whole TV program.
你得先确保我们真的能做到。
You're kinda like, let's make sure we can do this.
而且他们还得准备所有这些宣传素材。
And then they also had to get all this sort of marketing material.
你需要拍下大楼的照片，所有那些最终会用作预告片的内容。
You'd like get the photos of the building, like all the stuff that becomes the trailer and whatever.
所以我们九月份去做了些准备工作。
And so we went in September to sort of like do the prep.
我们基本上检查了所有不同的部分。
And so we basically checked out all the different pieces.
所以你看到任何看起来有点不一样的地方，都知道整个底部区域是一个低角度的岩壁。
And so anywhere where you see it looking a little bit different, you know, it's like this whole bottom part is like a low angle slab.
它被这两处小小的鲁伊斯点点缀着。
It's like punctuated with these two little Ruiz.
这些像硬币一样的小东西，或者那边的云朵。
These little like coin things or whatever the clouds are over there.
然后角落里还有龙的装饰。
And then there are the dragons on the corners.
这些全部都是悬挑结构，这八个区块每一个都是巨大的悬挑部分。
These are all overhanging like each of these eight blocks is like a big overhanging thing.
感觉有点不一样。
It feels a little bit different.
然后你上来这里，会看到一些阳台。
Then you get up here, there's like these balconies.
这些实际上是悬挑出来的。
These are actually overhanging.
基本上，这里的每一个小部分都截然不同。
Like basically each little segment of this is quite different.
你知道，在这个模型上，看起来都一样，但每两个部件之间的过渡都别有讲究。
And you know, obviously on this model, like looks looks the same, but each transition between the different pieces is like a thing.
所以我用绳子逐一检查了所有部分。
So I checked out all of them with ropes.
而且没错，你就这样一块一块地一直爬到顶端。
And and yeah, you just go piece by piece all the way up the whole thing.
在我们通过Netflix直播看到它之前，你从来没爬过吗？
And you hadn't ever climbed it before we saw it on Netflix live?
嗯，我之前没自由攀登过，但我确实爬过。
Well, I hadn't free soloed but I had climbed it.
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