本集简介
双语字幕
仅展示文本字幕，不包含中文音频；想边听边看，请使用 Bayt 播客 App。
我掌握有关杰弗里·爱泼斯坦的内部信息，以及为什么美国政府不愿更加透明。
I have inside information on Jeffrey Epstein and why the the US government is reluctant to be more transparent.
我知道这一点，因为当我还在政府工作时，会议讨论的不是‘我们该如何告诉公众’，而是‘我们该对公众说什么’。
And I know this because when I was working in government meetings were not how shall we tell the public, but what shall we tell the public.
因此，在我们的怀疑中，最好的情况往往只是意识到我们没有被告知真相。
So often the best we can get in our skepticism is to know that we are not being told the truth.
我认为人们需要知道真相。
I think people need to know the truth.
所以系好安全带。
So put on your seat belt.
我会把一切都告诉你。
I'm gonna tell you everything.
美国政府所有高层人士都知道你我今天在这里讨论的每一件事。
And all senior people in the US government know everything that you and I have discussed here today.
所以你一直身处幕后，接触过地球上一些最成功、最富有、最有权势的人，但加文，你到底做什么工作呢？
So you've been behind the scenes with some of the most successful, richest, most powerful people on planet Earth, but what is it you do, Gavin?
所以我做的是保护性防范，你知道的，就是针对富人或知名人士可能遭遇的各种威胁。
So I do protective coverage, you know, any of the ways that wealthy or prominent people might be targeted.
例如，沙特阿拉伯政府获得了一种可以入侵你手机的系统，并用它来攻击杰夫·贝佐斯。
For example, the Saudi Arabian government obtained a system which can get into your phone, used it on Jeff Bezos.
所以我们的工作就是弄清楚这件事是如何发生的。
So our work was to figure out how it happened.
为什么一个政府要黑入亚马逊创始人的手机？
Why would a government want to hack the founder of Amazon's phone?
我稍后告诉你，但我们都还不够谨慎，关于我们说的话、发的短信，你的手机在保密性上根本没有任何有效的保护措施。
So I'll tell you in a second, but we're all not as careful as we could be in terms of what we say, what we text, and there is absolutely no protection viable for the confidentiality of your phone.
你对这一点有怀疑吗？
Do you have any skepticism about that?
我只是对这个世界如何运作一无所知。
I just have a lot of ignorance to how this whole world works.
你真幸运。
Lucky you.
但人类历史上所有的权力中心都在撒谎。
But all power centers in human history lie.
有一些例子表明，它们有时会开始说出某些真相。
There are some examples of this where it will start telling the truth about something.
但多年后，我们会看到像致癌的石棉和婴儿爽身粉、因阿片类药物导致十万人死于心脏病，以及我们将看到的群体疫苗接种事件。
But years later, things like cancer causing asbestos and baby powder, a hundred thousand people dying from heart attacks from opioids, and we'll see it with mass vaccination.
那么，你对如何在当今世界中规避风险和威胁有什么建议吗？
So what advice would you give about how to navigate in the world we're living in today to avoid risk threat.
我有一些核心真理。
I've got some core truths.
首先，各位，在本集开始之前，我想请大家帮个忙。
So First of all Guys, I've got a favor to ask before this episode begins.
有69%经常听这个节目的听众还没有点击关注按钮。
Sixty nine percent of you that listen to the show frequently haven't yet hit the follow button.
这个关注按钮非常有用，因为它能确保你不会错过最精彩的节目。
And that follow button is very smart because it means you won't miss the best episodes.
如果你关注了某个节目，算法会将该节目的最佳集数显著地推送到你的信息流中。
The algorithm, if you follow a show, will deliver you the best episodes from that show very prominently in your feed.
因此，当我们推出本节目最精彩、分享最多、评分最高的集数时，我真心希望你能知道。
So when we have our best episodes on this show, the most shared episodes, the most rated episodes, I would love you to know.
而你了解这一点的最简单方式，就是点击关注按钮。
And the simple way for you to know that is to hit that follow button.
但更重要的是，我认为有41%的常听听众选择了关注这个节目，这正是我们能够不断改进一切的原因。
But also, the fact that, I think, what, 41% of you have chosen to follow the show that listen to it regularly is the reason why we've been able to improve everything.
这是你能为我们让这个节目变得更好而做的简单、轻松且免费的事情。
It's the simple, easy, free thing that you can do to help us make this show better.
如果你现在能花一分钟，在你正在收听的App里点击关注按钮，我会非常感激。
And I would be hugely grateful you if could take a minute on the app you're listening to this on right now and hit that follow button.
真的非常、非常、非常感谢你。
Thank you so, so, so much.
加文，我们有一个共同的朋友，这位朋友昨晚很晚给我发了一条语音消息。
Gavin, we have a mutual friend, and that mutual friend actually sent me a voice note late last night.
这段语音留言是这么说的。
Here is what the voice note says.
我简直不敢相信这么晚还在打电话。
I'm calling it this crazy hours.
我刚得知你即将在两天后，也就是13号，采访我的一位挚友加文·德·贝克尔。
I found out that you're interviewing a dear friend of mine, Gavin De Becker, I think in two days, I think on the thirteenth.
他是个非凡的人，灵魂极其崇高。
He is an extraordinary human being, extraordinary soul.
他出身于非常艰难的背景。
He comes from a a very tough background.
但他从那样的背景出发，成长为可能是世界上顶尖的安全专家。
But what he's done to move from that background to becoming probably the single greatest security expert in the world.
他设计了用于保护最高法院的系统。
He designed the systems that are used to protect the Supreme Court.
我几十年前就认识他了，当时我前女友正面临威胁，我也收到了恐吓信。
Well, I've met him decades ago when there was a threat happening to a former girlfriend of mine, and then I was getting threatening letters.
他几微秒内就破译了那些信件，联系了联邦调查局，并制止了这一切。
And he deciphered the letters in microseconds, got the FBI involved, and put a stop to it all.
他所做的一切真是非同寻常。
It was extraordinary what he did.
哇。
Wow.
这是托尼·罗宾斯，如果你没听出来的话。
That was Tony Robbins for anyone that didn't recognize
我认出他了。
I I recognize him.
是他的声音。
The voice.
是的。
Yeah.
要是有人没听出来就太奇怪了。
It'd be crazy if someone didn't.
但这让我变得极其好奇，因为他提到的许多事情我都觉得非常迷人。
But it got me incredibly, incredibly curious because he said lots of things there that I found fascinating.
我首先要谈的是，他描述了你如何帮助他应对生活中的一个个人困境。
The first one I'm gonna start with is he described you helping him with a personal situation in his life.
这引出了一个问题：你为像托尼·罗宾斯这样的人提供什么服务？
And I guess this begets the question, what is it you do for people like Tony Robbins?
你为名人、世界领袖提供什么服务？
What is it you do for famous people, for world leaders?
你到底做什么，加文？
What is it you do, Gavin?
我公司的主要职能是反暗杀。
The main function of my company is anti assassination.
因此，我们开发并实施反暗杀策略。
So we develop and deploy anti assassination strategies.
在暗杀——你可以将其视为最糟糕的结果——之下，还存在一些较轻的后果，比如其他类型的犯罪、声誉破坏，以及旨在引发焦虑和恐惧的威胁。
Under that, under assassination, which you can consider the worst possible outcome, are lesser outcomes, like other kinds of crimes, destruction of reputation, threats that are designed to cause anxiety and fear.
我们有一个部门专门负责威胁评估与管理。
We have a division that does assessment of threats and management of threats.
我们还有一个部门负责实际的保护工作。
We have a division that does actual protective coverage.
这是最大的部门，意味着实际的保护人员都是年轻力壮、经过专门训练的人，而不是那些退休的前警察，他们体型肥胖，正在从事第二份职业。
That's the biggest division, meaning actual physical protectors fit young capable people, not, retired ex cops who are overweight and on their second career, but, you know, people who are who are really trained for this specific field.
装甲车辆、家居改造，基本上所有能防止或打断造成身体伤害行为的措施都在我们的服务范围内。
Armored vehicles, modifications to homes, basically everything that fits into the category of preventing or disrupting efforts to do tissue damage.
所以，我们的业务是预防身体伤害。
So, we're in the business of preventing tissue damage.
这些年来，你为哪些名人提供过这类服务？
And who are some of the names that you do this for and have done this for over the years?
我为谁提供服务，这些名字我从不对外透露。
All of the names that I do it for are, never spoken by me.
所以我不会透露客户是谁，也不会说谁不是我们的客户。
So, I don't say who clients are, and I don't say who they aren't.
因为如果我对你说某某不是客户，这可能会泄露其他人是客户，或者让你听到的信息成为真或假。
Because if I say to you, so and so isn't a client, that is information that might reveal that somebody else is or something you heard is true or not true.
但我可以这样向你描述：如果你列出你认为属于这一类的20个人，或者50个人，其中大多数都是我们的客户。
The way I can describe it to you though is to say that it's if you took the 20 people you would assume fit into this category or the 50, most of them are clients.
我的意思是，根据互联网上的信息，你之前是否提到过某些事情？因为这些人曾经公开谈论过，或者你曾出现在照片中？
I mean, according to the Internet, had you sort of referenced certain things before because these people have spoken or, you know, you've been seen in photos?
没错。
That's right.
如果客户自己公开了我，或者因为我在法庭上作证等原因导致泄露，那就是另一回事了。
If a client identifies me or it happens because I testify in a court case or something, that's a different animal.
我只是不把自己当作心理医生或医生那样的角色。
It just doesn't come from I view myself as sort of like a a psychiatrist or a doctor.
我不会主动透露这些信息。
I wouldn't be the one revealing it.
那些被他人公开的名字包括杰夫·贝佐斯、伊丽莎白·泰勒、雪儿、麦当娜、芭芭拉·史翠珊，还有更多来自政府官员、王室成员等的人。
And some of those names that have been revealed by others are Jeff Bezos, Elizabeth Taylor, Cher Madonna, Barbara Streisand, and many, many, many more from government officials to royalty, etcetera, etcetera.
托尼说你帮他处理过他女朋友的事情，涉及威胁，后来发现并不是人们以为的那个人，他指的是什么？
What was Tony referring to when he said that you helped him with a situation with his girlfriend, a threat, found out that it wasn't who people thought they were?
是的。
Right.
他肯定指的是我永远不会透露的案子，我甚至不会承认他是我的客户。
Surely, he was referring to a case I'll never reveal, and I won't even acknowledge he's a client.
你连说他是你的客户都不愿意？
You You won't even say he's a client?
唔。
Mm-mm.
即使你从其他渠道得知了，我也不会承认。
I won't say it if you if you have it from some other source.
托尼说过了。
Tony said it.
我明白。
I I understand.
你的质询听起来完全合理，但我就是不会说。
Your your interrogation, it makes all the sense in the world, but I just don't say it.
我从不谈论客户。
I don't talk about clients.
原因有很多，但最重要的是绝对的保密性。
There's a bunch of reasons, but most of all, just absolute confidentiality.
我知道这听起来很奇怪。
I know it's weird.
抱歉。
Apologies.
但我听你谈过杰夫·贝佐斯的事情。
But I heard you talk about the Jeff Bezos situation.
你听到的是我谈论网络安全和手机的漏洞。
You heard me talk about cybersecurity and and the vulnerability of phones.
贝佐斯的情况有点不同，因为我当时是公开参与的，但显然得到了客户的许可，并与客户共同安排的。
And the Bezos situation is a little bit different in that I was involved very publicly in it, but clearly with permission of my client and and organized with my client.
这和我在法庭上作证时一样，那里没有任何保密性。
Same thing as when I testify in a court case, there's no secrecy about it.
我确实在做这件事，但这并不意味着我会在任何地方都这么做。
I'm doing it, but it doesn't mean that I'll then do it everywhere.
在你获得杰夫许可的那次情况中，背景是有一家报纸打算刊登他与当时还不是他妻子的劳伦·桑切斯有婚外情的消息。
And and so in that case where you did have Jeff's permission, the the background context was there was a newspaper that was gonna publish that he was having an affair with, I think, his current wife, who wasn't his wife at the time, Lauren Sanchez.
在那种情况下，你被要求查明发生了什么，而你成功解决了这个问题。
And you were called upon in that scenario to figure out what was going on, and you were able to solve that.
是的。
Yes.
关于这件事，你能谈论些什么？
What are you able to talk about there?
我会回想一下哪些信息已经公开了，而我不会透露新的内容。
Well, I'll think back to what what's already been what's already been public, and it won't be, from me.
我不会谈论客户本身，但会谈到当时刚刚获得名为飞马三号系统的沙特阿拉伯政府，这个系统可以远程入侵你的手机。
It won't be anything about the client, but it will be about the Saudi Arabian government, which at that time had just obtained a system called Pegasus three, which can get into your phone remotely.
它不需要任何点击操作，意味着你无需确认任何内容。
It doesn't require a click of any kind, meaning you don't have to acknowledge anything.
它可以直接入侵。
It can get in.
这被称为无点击漏洞。
It's called a no click exploit.
即使手机处于关闭状态，它也能从7000英里外执行你手持手机时能做的所有操作。
And it could do everything in your phone from 7,000 miles away that you could do holding the phone in your hand even if it was off.
可以打开摄像头，也可以打开麦克风。
Could turn on the camera, could turn on the microphone.
这种技术确实存在。
It exists.
这是由以色列人开发的非常真实的技术，而沙特王子穆罕默德·本·萨勒曼刚刚获得了它。
It's a very real thing made by the Israelis, and the Saudi prince, MBS, had just gotten it.
他用它来针对全球各地的一群异见人士。
And he used it on a group of dissidents around the world.
根据联合国以及大量公开的信息，他还用它针对了杰夫·贝索斯。
He also used it on Jeff Bezos according to the United Nations, according to lots of things that have been public.
我们的工作是，首先弄清楚它是如何发生的。
Our work was to, a, figure it out, figure out how it happened.
那时候，我还不知道Pegasus三号是什么。
In those days, I didn't know what Pegasus three was.
我不知道这个系统究竟是什么。
I didn't know what this system was.
但你们和你们的观众绝对需要知道的是：如果一个政府盯上了你，你的手机保密性就完全无法得到任何有效的保护。
But the instrumental or perhaps useful thing for you and your audience to know is that there is absolutely no protection viable for the confidentiality of your phone if a government wants you.
我说无法阻止它的原因在于，即使苹果发布了新解决方案并进行更新来修补某个特定漏洞，全球成千上万的人也会立刻开始寻找下一个漏洞。
And the reason I say there's no stopping it is that even when Apple puts out a new solution, at which they do an update, that, you know, breaks some particular exploit, thousands of people around the world immediately start working on the next exploit.
所以，如果我对你说：喏，这是一部手机，我们已经对它做了修改，效果很棒。
So if I said to you, here's a phone and we've modified it and it's great.
总统先生，给您，您可以拿这部手机进行保密通话。
Mister president, here, you can use this phone for your confidential conversations.
一个月后，它就再也无效了。
In a month, it won't work anymore.
因此，我可以告诉客户、朋友，还有你和你的观众，市面上有许多声称能保护你电话通话或短信机密性的产品。
And so I I'm able to tell clients and friends, and now you and your audience, there are a lot of things being offered for sale that supposedly protect the confidentiality of your phone calls, for example, or your texts.
没有任何东西能可靠地发挥作用。
Nothing will work reliably.
这个问题没有可靠的解决方案。
There is no solution to that problem that is reliable.
真的没有任何办法吗？
Nothing?
是的。
Yeah.
市面上有各种设备在出售。
There is there are devices sold.
各种各样的产品都有。
There's all variety of things.
但现实是，即使某样东西有效，即使我告诉你，这里有款全新的手机可以保护你，它也只会在一段时间内有效，因为针对漏洞的改进一直在持续进行。
But the reality is that even if something worked, even if I said to you, here's this cool new such and such phone that will protect you, It'll only protect you for a while because there's a constant effort to improve the exploits.
而且，我必须说，人们在某种程度上是犹豫不决的，甚至有些懒惰。
And also, I have to say people are somewhat reluctant and maybe even lazy.
我会把自己列入名单，也会把你列入名单，即使我根本不了解你。
I'll put myself on the list, and I'll put you on the list without even knowing you.
我们在说话和发短信时，都没有做到应有的谨慎。
We're all not as careful as we could be in terms of what we say, what we text.
我有一位亲密的朋友和客户，他发送的每一条短信和每一封邮件都会同时抄送给他的执行助理。
And, I have a dear friend and client who every text and every email that he sends also goes to his executive assistant.
而且人人都知道这一点。
And everybody knows it.
结果就是，这控制并影响了他的行为。
And what happens is it controls and influences his behavior.
所以当你发给我那个不适合在电视上播放的黄色笑话时，他的回应方式就会不一样。
So when you send me that off color joke that I wouldn't wanna see on television, he responds differently.
他不会说，‘哦，这太棒了’，然后再加上一句更过分的话。
He doesn't say, oh, that's great, and add another topping line on top of it.
因为他知道，助手就在隔壁房间里看着这些内容。
He because he knows that his assistant in the other room is seeing that.
所以我们能做的最好的就是谨慎言辞，别再幻想什么隐私或保密性了，因为这些根本就不存在，就是这样。
And so the best we can all do is be be watchful what we say and have no pretense of of privacy or confidentiality because it simply does not exist, period.
美国政府曾入侵我们所有盟友的手机，包括德国总理、英国首相和法国总统。
The US government got into the phones of all of our allies, the prime ministers, chancellor of West Germany, prime minister of England, president of France.
这是一直在进行的游戏，而隐私在新世界里根本不存在。
This is a game that's going on all the time, and and privacy is just not part of the new world.
为什么政府要黑入亚马逊创始人的手机？
Why would a government want to hack the founder of Amazon's phone?
再说一遍，根据公开的信息，亚马逊的创始人同时也是《华盛顿邮报》的拥有者。
Well, the again, from what's been public, the founder of Amazon was also the owner of the Washington Post.
而沙特方面杀害了《华盛顿邮报》的记者卡舒吉。
And the Saudis had killed Khashoggi, who was a journalist for the Washington Post.
随后，《华盛顿邮报》推出了阿拉伯语版。
And the Washington Post then started putting out an Arabic edition.
这让沙特人感到不舒服。
That didn't feel good for the Saudis.
于是他们真正针对的是我称之为国家元首的那个人。
And then they really went after the I'll call him the head of state.
他是王子，但他的父亲当时还健在，实际上是国家元首。
He's the prince, but but, his father was alive and was actually the head of state.
但他们真正针对的是穆罕默德·本·萨勒曼。
But they really went after MBS.
我认为，贝索斯在这一点上算是一个对手。
I think, Bezos was a kind of adversary in that regard.
此外，沙特主权基金还开发了一家亚马逊的竞争对手，名字类似‘Noom’之类的。
Additionally, the Saudi sovereign fund developed an Amazon competitor called something like Noom or something like that.
因此，他们对这件事感到担忧。
And so they were concerned about that.
他们还与亚马逊达成交易，因此可以通过查看各高管之间的短信来获得经济优势。
And they were also doing deals with Amazon, and so they could get, economic advantage by seeing what the various executives are texting to each other.
所以这件事涉及很多复杂的因素。
So there was a lot of a lot of moving parts to that.
我刚刚向你们分享的这些事情，都发生在卡舒吉遇害前后，当时世界各国都对这伙暗杀团队四处活动、窃听他人手机的行为表示反对。
So all these things I've just shared with you with high stakes matters going on around the time that Khashoggi was killed and that the western countries of the world were objecting to this assassination team of his going around and and killing people and and getting into their phones.
2019年初，杰夫·贝索斯公开指控美国小报《国家问询报》试图通过威胁发布亲密照片来勒索他，其中包括他与当时伴侣劳伦·桑切斯的裸照自拍。
In early two thousand and nineteen, Jeff Bezos publicly accused The US tabloid, The National Enquirer, of attempting to blackmail and extort him by threatening to publish intimate photos, including what he described as a nude below the belt selfie of him and his then partner, Lauren Sanchez.
贝索斯在一篇博客文章中写道，AMI曾发邮件给他的律师和安全顾问加文·德贝克尔的法律顾问，威胁称除非他和团队公开声明该小报对他的报道并非出于政治动机，否则就要公布他的私人照片和短信。
Bezos wrote a blog post saying, AMI emailed his lawyer and security adviser, Gavin DeBecker's counsel, threatening to publish personal photos and texts unless he and his team publicly stated that the tabloid's coverage of him was not politically motivated.
是的。
Yeah.
他们想让我做的，就是《国家问询报》和我以及我的律师协商的内容：我要公开声明两件事。
What they wanted me to do, the inquirer, and they negotiated with me and my lawyer over this, that I was to go public and say two things.
我要说，这并非出于政治动机，也没有受到外部势力——也就是沙特方面——的影响，并且不存在任何黑客行为。
I was to say it was not politically motivated, and it was not influenced by outside actors, I e, the Saudis, and that there was no hacking involved.
我的问题是，你们为什么偏偏要我讲这两件事？
My question was, why the hell do you want me to say those two things specifically?
而且，我其实早就知道答案了，因为确实存在外部干预，也确实有黑客行为。
And, my I already knew the answer, of course, because there was outside influence and there was hacking.
他们对我的要求太过奇怪，所以我们没有照做。
Their request for me was so strange that we didn't go along with it.
贝佐斯最终在Medium上发表了一篇文章，公开谈论此事，并说：‘如果我都不能站出来对抗这种事，那普通人还能怎么办？’
Bezos ultimately wrote a Medium post talking about it publicly and saying, hey, if if if I can't stand up to this, then where is a regular person?
最终，那些照片根本没被发布。
And ultimately, those pictures were never published.
是的。
Yeah.
我甚至不会评论那些照片是否存在，因为他们的做法其实非常有趣。
I can't I won't even comment on whether those pictures exist because they were doing a fascinating thing, by the way.
他们做的事，就像卖给你一片位于佛罗里达的、根本不存在的沼泽地。
They were it's sort of like selling you land in in Florida that's marshland and doesn't exist.
他们对根本不存在的东西进行勒索。
They were doing an extortion on a thing they didn't even have.
对吧？
Right?
所以这简直是一种双重犯罪。
So it's kind of a double crime.
这既是勒索，又是欺诈。
It's an extortion and fraud.
这很有趣。
It's interesting.
你知道，我们现在在这里谈论数字通信和安全，而就在当下，所有这些爱泼斯坦文件正在引发热议。
You know, we we start talking here about digital comms and that type of security with everything that's going on at this exact moment in time with all these Epstein files.
而且现在有一个巨大的讨论，因为我们能看到三百万份文件，其中很多是人们在不同时间发送的电子邮件。
And there's a big conversation, you know, because now we can see 3,000 3,000,000 documents, and many of them are emails that people have sent at different times.
世界上一些最著名的人曾给爱泼斯坦发过邮件，而现在这些邮件全都公之于众了。
Some of the most famous people in the world have sent emails to Epstein, and now those are all out there in the public to see.
我想知道你对这一切的看法是什么。
I wonder what your take was in all of this stuff.
你一定是通过你职业生涯所建立的视角在关注这些事，一定有很独特的见解。
You must be watching this stuff from, like, through the lens that you've built your career, and, you must have an interesting opinion.
其中一些内容，我不太愿意谈论，因为我掌握了不少内部信息，所以我一直小心，不越界。
Some of it, I I don't talk about because I have a fair amount of inside information, and I'm just watchful about not getting near the line.
你所说的内部信息是指什么？
What do mean by inside information?
我的意思是，我可能从一些政府机构那里获得了信息，这些机构是我的客户，或者因为我的一些客户牵涉其中。
I mean, information that that I might have gotten from, I'm characterizing it carefully, that I might have gotten from government agencies that are clients or that I might have gotten because, clients were, were implicated.
比如今天早上，我来这儿的路上才得知，我的名字也在爱泼斯坦的文件里。
Like, learned today, for example, this morning on the way over here that I'm in the Epstein files.
真的吗？
Oh, really?
我之所以出现在这些文件里，是因为有人给爱泼斯坦发了一篇我写的关于《自我欺骗走向战争》的文章。
And here's the way I'm in there, is that someone sent Epstein an article that I wrote called fooling ourselves into war.
所以有人把这篇文章发给了爱泼斯坦，这篇文章其实是我非常喜欢的，顺便说一句，它当时发表在《赫芬顿邮报》上。
And so, somebody sent that, article, which is an article I really like, by the way, published in in Huffington Post at the time, and, they sent that to Epstein.
这就是我出现在爱泼斯坦文件中的一个例子，但显然，我从未见过爱泼斯坦。
So that's an example of being in the Epstein files and yet, obviously, never having met, Epstein.
但我有几个客户和朋友，爱泼斯坦团伙曾试图接触他们，但失败了，也就是说，他们试图拉拢但没成功。
But I have a few clients who, and friends who the Epstein group made approaches on and failed, meaning they tried to get them and failed.
我给你讲一个故事，当然不会说出那个人的名字。
I'll give you one story without naming the person, of course.
他去纽约会见爱泼斯坦，想为一个慈善机构筹款。
He goes to meet with Epstein in New York, to ask for money for a charity.
而爱泼斯坦被看作是一位超级亿万富翁，但事实上他根本不是。
And and Epstein is perceived as this big billionaire, which he was not by the way.
我稍后告诉你原因。
I'll tell you in a second.
爱泼斯坦穿着一件浴袍。
And Epstein is in a robe.
他们就坐在桌子对面，就像你和我这样。
And they're across the desk just like you and I are.
埃普斯坦说：嘿。
And Epstein says, hey.
他们正在结束会议。
They're finishing the meeting.
他说：嘿。
He says, hey.
我要做个按摩。
I'm gonna get a massage.
所以我就穿着浴袍。
Hence, my robe.
你想做个按摩吗？
You wanna get a massage?
沿着走廊，我的朋友看到一张按摩床、一个房间，以及一位非常漂亮的女按摩师。
And through the hallway, my friend can see a massage table and a room and a very cute girl who's the massage therapist.
对吧？
Right?
穿着像按摩师一样。
Dressed like a massage therapist.
所以他刚好拒绝了。
And so he happened to say no.
事实上，有趣的是，他其实不喜欢按摩，而这本身——你知道的——很多人会答应，甚至可能觉得这能改善我和杰弗里·爱泼斯坦的关系，我觉得他是个有钱人，我想从他那里为我的慈善机构筹钱。
In fact, interestingly, he happens to not like massage, which is itself, you know, a lot of people would say yes and might even think it would improve my relationship with this guy, Jeffrey Epstein, who I perceive as this rich guy that I'm trying to get money from my charity.
如果当时他答应了，那个人的人生会多么不同。
Had that happened, what a different world for that person.
截然不同的人生。
What a different life.
因为那个房间里有摄像头，后来还加了录音设备。
Because in that room is cameras and then eventually audio.
一开始并没有录音，但后来加了音频。
Didn't start off with audio, but audio was added later.
然后你正在接受手淫服务，如果我可以这么说的话，而对方的年龄你根本没想过，结果发现她才17岁。
And then you're getting a handjob, if I'm allowed to say handjob, from somebody who you don't even think about their age, but turns out to be 17.
从此以后，你就陷入了一生的麻烦。
And you are in a world of trouble for the rest of your life.
这正是 Epstein 事件的关键部分——纽约那套公寓里装了摄像头，后来又加了录音设备，到了岛上更是如此。
And that's a big piece of what was going on with Epstein, with cameras in that apartment in New York, and eventually audio cameras and eventually audio at the island.
我的看法，当然也是我公开表达的观点是，这背后存在一场深远的勒索行动，受益者可能不止一个政府，但至少有一个政府。
My take on it, and certainly my public take, is that there was a profound, blackmail operation going on to the benefit of probably more than one government, but at least one government.
我刚才说他不是亿万富翁，他确实不是亿万富翁。
And when I said a moment ago he wasn't a billionaire, he wasn't a billionaire.
首先，他的收入来源非常可疑。
For one thing, his earning path is highly suspect.
我先告诉你他究竟是什么人。
I'll first tell you what he was.
他其实是一个人为构建的假象。
What he was is a construct.
他是一个被构建出来的形象。
He's a created construct.
金钱、财富、私人飞机、私人岛屿、享乐、未婚、年轻女孩，还有许多其他东西。
Money, wealth, private jet, private island, fun, not married, young girls, lots of things.
所以，这是一个被构建出来的形象。
So here was a construct.
钱。
The money.
五亿美元来自莱斯·韦克斯纳，他是个富有的人，拥有或曾经拥有维多利亚的秘密，我不知道他现在在做什么。
$500,000,000 of money came from Les Wexner, who's a wealthy guy who, owns or owned, I don't know what he's doing now, Victoria's Secret.
一笔巨款转入了以色列政府。
Big note entered to the state of Israel.
五亿美元被转移给爱泼斯坦，并授予他全权委托，让他自行决定如何使用和投资这笔钱。
And $500,000,000 was transferred to Epstein along with power of attorney to use it and invest it in the ways he saw fit.
这非常不寻常，你知道，我算有点钱，但我不会给你五亿美元。
Quite an unusual, you know, I'm mildly wealthy, but I'm not sending you $500,000,000.
我来告诉你。
I'll tell you that.
你正在做这件事这个想法本身就非同寻常，但这可能是这个构建体的融资机制。
The idea that you're that you're doing this is itself extraordinary, but it was probably the funding mechanism for this construct.
虽然杰弗里·爱泼斯坦是个真实的名字，他有真实的出生证明，也真实地成长过，但向世人展示的形象并不真实。
While it's a real name, Jeffrey Epstein, and he has a real birth certificate and grew up in a real way, the picture that is presented to the world is not authentic.
这与他真实的身份并不相符。
It is not accurate to who he was.
你越深入挖掘这个故事——当然现在人们正在大量挖掘，因为迄今为止已有三百万份文件，还有视频和照片，材料非常丰富。
And, the more you dig into this story, which of course people are doing so much now because of these, 3,000,000, documents so far, and videos by the way, and photographs, There's a lot of material there.
现在这件事对人们来说非常有趣，还有更多有待发现。
The, it's very interesting to people right now and and and more to be learned.
但，到底实际发生了什么？
But, you know, what was actually going on?
为什么有人会说，这些内容涉及国家安全问题？
Why in the world would anybody say, well, there are national security implications to some of this content.
这就是为什么有些内容被删减了。
That's why some things are redacted.
那会是什么？
What would that be?
为什么那位在佛罗里达州起诉他的检察官，会给出可能是世界历史上最不寻常、在美国历史上也独一无二的认罪协议？想象一下，我是美国检察官，我手上有你犯下的罪行。
Why would the prosecutor who prosecuted him in Florida and provided one of the most unusual plea bargain deals in world history and certainly unique in American history, which is imagine I've got you I'm a US attorney.
我掌握了你犯罪的证据。
I've got you on some crime.
然后你说：好吧。
And you say, okay.
我认罪。
I'm going to plead guilty.
我愿意服刑，但请放过我的会计师，也别起诉我妻子，她只是帮忙送东西，并没有参与任何非法活动。
I'm gonna serve my time, but please let my accountant go and please don't prosecute my wife because all she did was deliver the stuff and she didn't wasn't involved in anything.
这些被称为未被起诉的共犯。
And so those are called unindicted co conspirators.
所以我跟你达成协议，你说好，你去坐八个月的牢，而我们不会起诉那些未被指控的共犯。
So I make a deal with you and I say, okay, you go to jail for the eight months and we will leave the unindicted co conspirators unindicted.
我们不会起诉你的妻子、你的儿子、你的会计师或者其他任何人。
We won't prosecute your wife, your son, your your accountant or what have you.
这是一个非常正常的过程。
That's a very normal process.
这本质上是一种谈判过程。
It's it's a it's a bargaining process basically.
然而，在爱泼斯坦案中，美国检察官给他达成了一项协议，承诺不起诉未指名的共犯。
However, in the Epstein case, the US attorney gave him a deal that said that we would not prosecute unnamed coconspirators.
天哪。
Holy shit.
那是谁？
Who's that?
未指名的共犯是谁？
Who's unnamed coconspirators?
未指名的共谋者可能有50个人。
Unnamed coconspirators could be 50 people.
也可能有75个人。
It could be 75 people.
给出这份优厚交易的人后来成了劳工部长。
The guy who gave that sweetheart deal became the secretary of labor.
当时他是佛罗里达州的美国检察官。
He was at that time the US attorney for for Florida.
有人问他：你为什么给出这份优厚交易？
He was asked, why did you give that sweetheart deal?
因为这个交易太荒谬了。
Because the deal's ridiculous.
未指名的共谋者将免于起诉。
Unnamed coconspirators will be exempt from prosecution.
他说，有人告诉他，这个人属于情报部门，然后他就因为这件事辞职了。
And and he said, I was told he belonged to intelligence, and then he had to resign because of this.
关于爱泼斯坦，发生了很多事情。
There was a lot going on with with with Epstein.
我的意思是，这种事情太多了，但正是这个人把爱泼斯坦带入了权力圈，并帮他获得了在摩根士丹利的工作——我想是这样。
The person who I mean, there's so much of this, but the person who sort of brought Epstein into the world of power and got him his job at, I think, Morgan Stanley.
我可能记错了，但那家大型金融公司之一的负责人是威廉·巴尔的父亲。
I could have that wrong, but one of those big finance companies was William Barr's father.
威廉·巴尔是爱泼斯坦在监狱中死亡或被杀时的美国司法部长——这取决于你接受哪种版本的事实。
William Barr was the attorney general who was The US attorney general when Epstein was killed or died in prison depending on your choice of of reality.
所以这里面涉及的内容太多了，但你请过的嘉宾中，我不会是第一个说这是一场情报行动的人，史蒂文。
So there's so much there, but I won't be the first guest, Steven, that you've had that says that it was an intelligence operation.
为什么美国政府不愿更加透明？
Why the US government is reluctant to be more transparent?
一部分原因是国家安全。
Some of it is national security.
另一部分原因是，假设我们的某个盟友参与了这项行动。
Some of it is let's imagine an ally of ours is involved in that operation.
所以存在一种犹豫，也存在一个问题。
So there's a reluctance and there's a question.
这有点像UFO。
It's a little bit like UFOs.
公众能承受得了吗？
Could the public handle it?
这总是这类情况下被提出的问题。
Is the question that's always asked in these cases.
意思是，如果例如英国在美国境内开展一项情报行动，控制参议员、国会议员、高级高管、重要人物和科学家，公众能承受得了吗？
Meaning, could the public handle it if, for example, The UK was running an intelligence operation inside The United States to control senators and congressmen and powerful executives and powerful figures and scientists?
我们能承受得了吗？
Could we handle it?
美国公众能承受得了吗？
Could The US public handle it?
我个人的看法呢？
My take personally?
当然
Absolutely,
对
yes.
所以你认为他是一名情报人员，听起来你还认为他可能是某个美国盟友的情报资产。
So you believe that he was an intelligence asset, and it sounds like you believe he was an intelligence asset potentially by a US ally.
是的
Yes.
那么这个盟友是谁？
So who is that ally?
以色列。
Israel.
你认为爱泼斯坦是以色列的情报资产吗？
You believe that Epstein was an Israel intelligence asset?
是的
Yes.
是的。
I do.
还有，吉赛尔·马克斯韦尔，作为额外的背景信息，但每个人都能查到。
And, and Ghislain Maxwell, just for additional background, but everybody can find it.
她的父亲是一名以色列情报特工，备受尊崇。
Her father was an Israeli intelligent asset who was so revered.
他的葬礼在以色列举行，总理、我认为最后四到五位领导人，以及每一位在世的摩萨德负责人均出席了。
His funeral ceremony was held in Israel, was attended by the prime minister, by I think the last four or five, by every living head of Mossad attended.
在悼词中使用了这样的措辞：他为以色列做了些世人永远无从知晓的事情。
And there were words used in eulogies like he did things for Israel that, the world will never know about.
那里有很多良好的关联和紧密的联系，其中一些我已经与你分享了，因为是公开信息，还有一些我没有分享，但那确实就是我的信念。
There's a a lot of good connection there and a lot of good connective tissue, some of which, I've shared with you because it's public and some of which I'm not sharing, but that is, that is indeed what I believe.
是的。
Yes.
而且，顺便说一句，不只是我这么认为。
And and Not just me, by the way.
你可能已经在那里了，而且你肯定让另一位嘉宾坐过这里，那位前中情局的人，基拉·高，他姓怎么读？
I, you might already be there, and you've certainly had another guest sit here and and, former CIA guy, Kira Kao, how do you say his last name?
是的
Yeah.
我猜得对吗？
Am I close?
我是不是
Did I
你猜得很接近了。
just You're close.
比我能猜得更接近。
Closer than I would get.
好的。
Okay.
很好。
Good.
他明确地指出了以色列。
And he was point blank in saying Israel.
所以并没有直接的证据，但人们本质上是在把各种线索拼凑起来，形成一个完整的图景。
So there's no there's no direct evidence, but what people are essentially doing is putting the pieces together to make a picture.
有直接证据。
There is direct evidence.
只是我此刻没有分享直接证据。
There's just not direct evidence I'm sharing at this moment.
但已经有很多公开的证据，其中一些我已经分享过了。
But there's the there's plenty of evidence that that has been public already, some of which I've shared.
我的意思是，我可以讲四十分钟，但每个人都可以直接去问ChatGPT。
I mean, I could I could do it for forty minutes, but everybody can just go to ChatGPT.
你知道，如果你问ChatGPT，最好地论证一下——这对观众来说是个值得记住的观点。
You know, if you ask ChatGPT, make the best case for it's a good thing for viewers to remember.
最好地论证一下……不管它是什么。
Make the best case for dot dot dot, whatever it is.
如果你问一个直截了当的问题，得到的第一个答案总是官方说法。
If you ask the first answer you get if you ask a straight question will always be the official narrative.
我正是这么做的。
I've done exactly that.
正如你所说，我问了ChatGPT：为艾泼斯坦是以色列间谍这一观点做最好的论证。
As you said, I I asked Chad Gboty, make the best case for Epstein being an Israel spy.
以下是它的回答。
Here is what it said.
杰弗里·艾泼斯坦作为以色列情报资产的论点，基于一种模式上的吻合，而非直接证据。
The case that Jeffrey Epstein functioned as an Israeli intelligence asset rests on a pattern alignment rather than direct proof.
他运营的性勒索活动与已知的情报勒索手段相似。
He ran a sexual sexual compromise operation resembling known intelligence compromat tradecraft.
勒索材料。
Compromat.
是的。
Yeah.
这其实是个俄语词，意思是我们会让你陷入困境。
Like, it's a Russian word that means we compromise you.
他拥有的财富和资源远超其正式职业范围，并多年来享有非同寻常的法律保护。
Had wealth and access far beyond his formal career and operated with unusual legal protection for years.
他与格伦·麦克斯韦尔关系密切，而麦克斯韦尔的父亲有明确的情报背景，这引发了怀疑；此外，有记者报道称，埃普斯坦的活动曾在与情报相关的圈子里被讨论过。
His close partnership with Glenn Maxwell, whose father had documented intelligence ties fuel suspicion as does reporting by journalists who say Epstein's activities were discussed in intelligence adjacent circles.
他公寓和家中隐藏的摄像头和麦克风，我们怎么知道它们存在，又为什么会被安装？
The cameras and the microphones hidden in his apartment and his home, how do we know they were there and why?
嗯，怎么
Well, how
我知道它们在那里，和大家怎么知道它们在那里，是两回事。
I know they were there is a little bit different from how everybody knows they were there.
我对FBI这一整段历史了解得不够，但我可以告诉你FBI这件事里一个有趣的部分。
And I don't know enough about the entire history of the FBI piece, but I'll tell you a funny part of the FBI piece.
在他最近被捕后，他们去执行搜查令时，发现并拍下了许多标有标签的CD-ROM或其他光盘，但他们并没有把这些东西带走。
When they went to execute a search warrant at that apartment after his more recent arrest, they found and even photographed a bunch of CD ROMs or discs of some kind that were labeled, but they didn't take them.
他们说我们会申请搜查令，然后回来拿那些东西。
They said we'll get a warrant and we'll be back for those.
结果他们仅仅六天后就回来了，但那些东西全都不见了。
And they came back after a mere six days, and it was all gone.
所以它们现在在哪里，我不知道。
So where it is, I don't know.
是美国政府拿走了吗？
Does the US government have it?
是别人拿走了吗？
Does somebody else have it?
我真的不知道答案。
I just don't know the answer.
但我对那个岛和公寓的情况有非常直接的信息。
But, I know from very direct information regarding the island and the apartment.
我不知道关于新墨西哥州的事。
I don't know about New Mexico.
展开剩余字幕（还有 480 条）
我只是恰好不知道。
I just don't happen to know.
他拥有的另一处房子。
Another house that he owned.
那里有摄像头，后来 eventually 添加了音频。
That there were cameras and then eventually audio audio was added.
哦，顺便说一下，还有证词。
Oh, also testimony, by the way.
抱歉。
Pardon me.
来自一些女孩的证词，她们说曾在那工作并经常去那里，称在前门右侧的一个小房间里，有一整套录制视频的设备。
Testimony from girls who said girls who worked there and visited there a lot who said that in a small room near to the right of the front door was a whole thing of videos where the recording was done.
你能向我解释一下，为什么记录人们进行这类行为的视频和音频，会成为这个外国对手的有用资产吗？
And can you explain to me why recording videos and audio of people getting those kinds of, doing those kinds of things would be a useful asset for this foreign adversary to have.
当然。
Sure.
你知道，勒索并不总是通过打电话说，嘿，史蒂文，
Know, blackmail is not always done by calling you up and saying, you know, hey, Steven.
如果你不做A、B或C，我就要这样伤害你。
I'm gonna hurt you in the following way if you don't do a, b, or c.
另一种方式更好，一些已公开的材料中甚至也提到了这一点：他打电话说，史蒂文，有个坏消息。
The other version is is far better, which there's is even alluded to in some of the now released material, which is he calls and he says, Steven, I've got terrible news.
你还记得你那次找辛迪做的按摩吗？
You remember you had that massage from Cindy?
你记得那个女孩吗？
You know that girl?
辛迪？
Cindy?
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我记得。
I remember.
她录了点东西。
She recorded something.
她包里有东西。
She had something in her bag.
她录了音，而且我听到了更糟糕的消息，史蒂文。
She made a recording, and I got worse news, Steven.
那女孩才16岁。
The girl's 16.
而且，顺便说一下，你现在胃部不适，拉肚子。
And now, by the way, you are stomach drops, diarrhea.
光是听到这个，你现在就已经陷入巨大的压力中了。
You are in a world of stress right now just hearing that.
而他没有成为勒索你的人，反而成了救你的人。
And he, instead of being your blackmailer, becomes your rescuer.
他说，我能处理。
He says, I can handle it.
我能处理。
I can handle it.
我能处理。
I can handle it.
她有那些录音。
She's got the recordings.
我不知道它们在哪里，但我能处理。
I don't know where they are, but I can handle it.
我能处理。
I can handle it.
我能处理，别担心。
I can handle Don't worry.
别担心。
Don't worry.
别担心。
Don't worry.
现在他永远掌控着你。
And he owns you now, forever.
如果你曾与未成年人发生过裸露行为，并且有视频和音频记录，那么只要要求合理，你就会做任何被要求的事。
If you were involved in a naked experience with someone who's underage, and there's a video of it and audio of it as well, you will do anything that you are asked to do that is within reason.
很少有人具备你所描述的贝佐斯那样的品格和毅力，他写了一封公开信，说最近发生了一件非常不寻常的事。
Very few people would have the character and the stamina to do what you described Bezos doing, which is that he wrote a public letter saying a very unusual thing happened to me the other day.
我正被《国家询问报》勒索，以下是他们对我说的话。
I'm being blackmailed by the National Enquirer, and here's what they said.
这非常非常罕见。
That's very, very rare.
所以，你知道，一位参议员或国会议员，他掌控着很多人。
And so, you know, a senator or a congressman, he owned a lot of people.
你对这一点有怀疑吗？
Do you have any skepticism about that?
我
I
我没有怀疑。
don't have skepticism.
我只是对这个世界如何运作一无所知。
I just have a lot of ignorance to how this whole world works.
你真幸运。
Lucky you.
我还有很多无知，你知道的，因为你会在电影里听到这些事，而似乎我们正在亲眼见证一些本该只存在于电影中的事情发生。
And I just have a lot of ignorance, like you know, because you hear about these things in almost like movies, and, it appears that we're all kinda witnessing something we we might have reg regulated just to the movies happen before our eyes.
而且，当你看到一些埃普斯坦发给别人的邮件出现在我的信息流中时，他似乎不断邀请人们和他聚会，是的。
And even when, you know, I saw some of the emails coming up on my feed of things that Epstein had emailed people, he seemed to be continually inviting people to hang out with him Sure.
这种方式非常不寻常。
In a way that is quite atypical.
也许我只是个内向的人，但他确实很主动地联系别人，催促他们来和他聚会。
Now maybe I'm just an introvert, but I'm not he he was, like, aggressive in his comms to people saying, come and hang out with me.
我正在办一件事，或者说是晚宴。
I'm doing this thing or this dinner party.
来我的岛吧。
Come to my island.
你附近吗？
Are you in the area?
他成功地让很多人来参观他的房子和岛屿。
And he was succeeding in getting a lot of people to come and visit his his homes and his island.
顺便说一下，史蒂文，在你目前的处境中，
And, yeah, it's By the way, Steven, in the circumstance you are
你很可能已经从杰弗里·爱泼斯坦那里听说过什么。
in today, you might well have heard from from Jeffrey Epstein.
你很可能已经认识的人告诉你，嘿。
You might well have had somebody who knows you, who says, hey.
纽约有个人，特别喜欢你的节目，简直太棒了。
There's this guy in New York, loves your show, just terrific.
然后，你突然收到了邀请。
And and all of a sudden, you're getting that invitation.
而且你是通过一个你认识并有点喜欢的人收到这个邀请的。
And you're getting that invitation through someone you know and kind of like.
就像乔·罗根那样。
Like Joe Rogan did.
我不知道。
I don't know.
但像这么多人。
But like so many people.
乔·罗根也说过。
And Joe Rogan said it.
哦，如果他的话是
Oh, if he's
公开说过的，我就不打算当那个说出来的人，但我确实收到了。
been public about it, I I'm just not gonna be the one to say it, but I I got it.
哦，好吧。
Oh, okay.
是的。
Yeah.
乔·罗根上周公开表示，这一点在文件中有记录：他节目的一位前嘉宾，我认为是劳伦斯·克劳斯，邀请他去见杰弗里·爱泼斯坦。
Joe Joe Rogan publicly last week said that, and it's in the files, that a former guest, I think it was Lawrence Krausz, of his show, invited him to come and meet Jeffrey Epstein.
邮件显示，杰弗里·爱泼斯坦正试图让劳伦斯带乔·罗根过去。
And the email showed that Jeffrey Epstein was trying to get Lawrence to bring Joe Rogan in.
乔·罗根说，绝对、绝对不可能——这就是乔·罗根说的，绝对他妈的不行。
Joe Rogan said, like, absolutely absolute well, this what Joe Rogan's said, absolutely fucking not.
对。
Right.
我对这件事感到很不舒服，所以从未去过，也从未参与过。
I was creeped out about it and never went and was never involved.
我刚才想说的是，在你目前的情况下——你拥有庞大的观众群、这档节目的广泛影响力，以及你做的那些短视频等等——当然你是个很棒的人，因为现在我可以直接给你打电话，说：嘿，你能请这个人来吗？
Well, point I was just making is that in your present circumstance with the, you know, enormous audience and and the reach of this show and and all your work, the small videos, etcetera, Of course, you're a terrific person because now I can call you up and say, hey, will you have this person on?
或者我可以问：你对这个话题会持非常怀疑的态度吗？
Or I can say, hey, will you be really skeptical about this topic?
你会说：别相信它吗？
And will you say, don't believe it?
你会说：我觉得这是错的吗？
And will you say, I think it's wrong?
你会说：我觉得这是反犹太主义吗？
Or will you say, I think it's antisemitism?
你会说：某某某吗？
Or will you will you say such and such?
兄弟，你肯定会的。
And, brother, you will.
当我开始阅读一些 Epstein 发给自己的特定邮件时，我才真正明白了勒索这一层面。
The the moment where I started to, you know, really understand the blackmail angle, was when I started reading some of the particular emails that Epstein had sent to himself.
其中有一封特别的邮件，是他发给自己关于比尔·盖茨的内容。
One in particular where he sent himself an email regarding Bill Gates.
他声称比尔·盖茨与人发生过关系，还给自己发了一封邮件，是的。
He's alleging that Bill Gates has slept with he's sending himself an email Yes.
声称比尔·盖茨与某位俄罗斯妓女发生过关系，染上了性病，还有婚外情等各种指控。
Alleging that Bill Gates has slept with someone, some some Russian prostitute, and that he got an STD, an extramarital affair, all of these allegations.
当我读到这封邮件时，我就想，哦，原来他是个勒索者。
And when I read that email, then I thought, oh, you know, he was an he was a blackmailer.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
他绝对是勒索者。
He was definitely a blackmailer.
他收集了所有这些富人和名人，现在都掌控在自己手里。
And he's collected all these rich and famous people, and he has them in his pocket now.
在我们继续之前，先就埃普斯坦这个话题做个总结，你提到他们已经公开了一些文件，但还有其他文件没公开。
Just to close off then on this point of of Epstein before we move on, you said they they've released some of the files, and you said they hadn't released other files.
是的。
Yes.
而且你暗示过，这是因为它们实际上无法释放这些其他文件。
And and you have implied that was because they basically can't release these other files necessarily.
嗯，我不确定是否还会再有更多内容出来。
Well, I don't I don't know what I think more is coming.
我觉得还会释放更多内容。
I think more will be released.
但肯定还有一些文件，包括即使到现在、甚至是昨天的文件。
But there are certainly files, including files even right now, even yesterday.
不过你知道，国会已经投票通过了一项法律，要求无删减地公开所有文件。
Though there's a law, as you may know, congress voted for a law to release everything unredacted.
但仍然有很多被删减的内容。
There's still a lot of redacted stuff.
所以还会有更多内容陆续公布。
So there's more to come.
而且，会不会有些内容仍然被删减？
And, will some be redacted?
当然。
Sure.
有谁会像我今天这样坐在这里，说：嗨，我是某某部长。
Is anybody gonna sit here like I did today and say, hi, I'm the secretary of blah blah blah.
让我来告诉你真正发生了什么。
And let me just tell you what was really going on.
你知道，我是中央情报局局长，让我告诉你真正发生了什么。
You know, I'm the head of the CIA, and let me tell you what was really going on.
不太可能。
Not likely.
但特朗普知道。
But Trump knows.
他知道杰弗里·杰弗逊·爱泼斯坦到底是谁。
He knows who Jeffrey Jeffrey Epstein really was.
我认为美国政府的所有高层人士，以及许多普通人都知道你我今天讨论的全部内容。
I would say all senior people in the US government and and many many people in general know everything that you and I have discussed here today.
没什么秘密。
No secret.
顺便问一下，你怎么看？
By the way, what do you think?
让我们想象一下，有个人站出来 saying，这个国家被描述为我们最亲密的盟友。
Let's imagine somebody came forward and said, this country described as our greatest ally.
我认为，基于历史，我们最亲密的盟友是英国。
I would say our greatest ally is The UK based on on history.
但以色列是中东地区的重要盟友，它是一个民主国家，更接近西方政府模式。
But, Israel's an important ally in the Middle East, and it's a it's a democracy, and it's more of a western government.
我明白。
I get it.
但是，你怎么看？
But, what do you think?
这个国家出面，有人正式说，好吧。
The the the country comes out and somebody officially says, okay.
让我告诉你当时发生了什么。
Let me tell you what was going on.
你认为美国公众能承受得了吗？
Do you think the American public can handle it?
我认为，无论如何，他们现在都有权知道真相。
I think they, either way, now deserve to know the truth.
无论他们能否承受，可能都次于我认为人们需要知道真相。
Whether they can handle it or not is probably secondary to whether they I think people need to know the truth.
我觉得，问题在于人们一直被这些事情部分地创伤了。
We've I think, like, the problem is people have been, like, partially traumatized by all of this stuff.
所以现在我认为解决办法是完全透明。
And so now I think the remedy is full transparency.
我同意。
I agree.
顺便说一下，这很接近了，因为我们得到了很多信息。
And by the way, this is close, because we we got a lot of information.
但你知道，五周前或八周前，人们还说，没什么别的了。
Whereas, you know, five weeks ago or or eight weeks ago, people were saying, oh, there's nothing more.
就这些了。
That's it.
就这些了，没有别的了。
That's all there is.
我的意思是，这是一个巨大的进展。
I mean, this is a big step.
我认为这是一个巨大的进步，是我在一生中见过的政府在透明度方面最重大的举措之一。
And I think it's a big step as big a step toward transparency as probably as I've seen in my lifetime by a government.
唯一的例外不是政府行为，而是埃隆收购推特后发布的推特文件。
The exception would be, and it's not a government, what Elon did after buying Twitter, the release of the Twitter files.
让三位记者进来彻底查阅所有资料，这是一件非常令人印象深刻的事。
That was a very impressive thing of letting three journalists come in and just go through everything.
我认为，如果美国政府——政府通常很少这么做——能这样做，那就太棒了。
I think it would be awesome if the US government ever governments don't do this very often.
但如果他们曾经说过：‘好了，大家都系好安全带。',
But if they ever said, okay, everybody put on your seat belt.
我会告诉你们关于肯尼迪总统遇刺事件的全部真相，或者关于参议员罗伯特·F·肯尼迪竞选总统时遇刺的全部真相。
I'm gonna tell you exactly what happened with the JFK assassination or exactly what happened with the assassination of Robert f Kennedy, senator Robert f Kennedy when he ran for president.
在美国历史上，有一些例子表明，大约二十五年后，我们才会开始说出关于某件事的真相。
There are some examples of this in US history where it feels like after about twenty five years, we'll start telling the truth about something.
五十年前，强生公司去找了FDA，说：‘看，我们生产的婴儿爽身粉，就是你们用来给婴儿擦身、大人也会吸入的那种，里面含有石棉，会导致癌症。'
Fifty years ago, Johnson and Johnson went to, to the FDA and they said, look, our baby powder, you know, that stuff that you put on the baby and you breathe and the mother breathes, well, it's got asbestos in it and it causes cancer.
FDA回应说：‘谢谢你们向我们提出这个问题。',
And the FDA said, well, thanks for bringing this to our attention.
我们会开始研究允许的石棉含量是多少。',
We'll begin to study how much asbestos is an allowable amount.
但他们从未考虑过零含量——这正是我希望、或你们希望在婴儿用品中看到的水平。
Now, they never considered zero, which is what I'd want on my baby or you'd want on your baby.
于是他们开始进行研究。
And they began to study.
然后他们研究了一段时间，又研究了一段时间。
And then they studied for a while and they studied for a while.
结果，四十年过去了。
And lo and behold, forty years had gone by.
他们一直没有出台规定，说强生婴儿爽身粉中不应该含有石棉。
And they hadn't come out with a ruling to say there shouldn't be any asbestos in in Johnson and Johnson baby powder.
顺便问一下，他们是什么时候出台这项规定的？
When did they come out with that ruling, by the way?
去年。
Last year.
2024年，也就是五十二年后。
2024, after fifty two years.
所以一开始，政府说：石棉？
So at the beginning, the government is saying, asbestos?
没有。
No.
你在说什么？
What are you talking about?
橙色剂，同样的故事。
Agent Orange, the same story.
橙色剂是越南战争中用于清除植被的化学物质。
Agent Orange is a material used in Vietnam for defoliation.
它伤害了人，夺走了生命，并导致他们的孩子出现出生缺陷，包括美国士兵。
Hurt people, killed people, and caused birth defects in their kids, including American soldiers.
很多人因此受害。
Lots of them.
政府早就知道这一点。
The government knew it.
他们曾用40只实验鼠进行过测试。
They had tested it on 40 lab mice.
而且实验鼠本身的生活条件通常就很差。
And lab mice don't have a good life generally anyway.
它们的预期寿命并不长。
They don't have good life expectancy.
但这次，三十八只在五天内就死了。
But in this case, thirty eight died within five days.
政府对这些信息做了什么？
What did the government do with that information?
哦，把这放进绝密文件里，然后销毁掉。
Oh, put that in a top secret file and get rid of that.
然后它被搁置了很长时间，直到医学研究所表示：橙剂正在伤害人们。
And then it sits for a long, long time, and the Institute of Medicine says, Agent Orange hurting people.
你在说什么？
What are you talking about?
不。
No.
他们撒谎，撒谎，再撒谎。
And they lie, and they lie, and they lie.
然后，二十、二十五年之后，好吧。
And then finally, twenty, twenty five years later, okay.
是的。
Yeah.
抱歉。
Sorry.
我们错了。
We were wrong.
它确实会导致出生缺陷。
It does it does cause birth defects.
你看到同样的故事发生在乳房植入物、硅胶乳房植入物上。
You see that same story with, breast implants, silicone breast implants.
你看到同样的故事发生在婴儿配方奶粉、含有砷的婴儿食品上。
You see that same story with baby formula, with baby food, which has arsenic in it.
我不希望婴儿食品里有任何砷。
I don't want any arsenic in baby food.
但是否认、否认、再否认，我们在大规模疫苗接种上也会看到这种情况。
But deny, deny, deny, deny, and we'll see it with mass vaccination.
因为几年后，情况就会明朗了。
Because after some years, there will be okay.
是的。
Yes.
它很可能导致心肌炎，这一点已经得到了承认；还有心包炎，以及年轻人中的癌症。
There is a a good chance that it causes myocarditis, already been admitted by the way, pericarditis, cancer in young people.
这是一个糟糕的产品。
It was a bad product.
抱歉。
Sorry.
但在事情发生前一年，他们也不会采取行动。
But they won't do it a year away from a thing.
而显然，正如我们每天都能看到的，他们在五年后也不会采取行动。
And they obviously, as we can see every day, they won't do it five years away.
很容易看出，当美国政府或任何权力中心如此行事时——我是个美国人。
It's very easy to see and to locate when the US government or any power center this is I'm an American.
我完全支持美国。
I'm all for America.
但人类历史上所有的权力中心都会撒谎。
But all power centers in human history, lie.
然而，知道他们在撒谎，并不等于你就知道了真相。
Knowing that they are lying does not tell you the truth, however.
意思是，知道奥斯瓦尔德并非单独一人从德克萨斯书库大楼六楼开枪，即使他真的是开枪者的话。
Meaning, knowing that Oswald did not act alone as a shooter from the 6th Floor of the Texas Book Depository, if he was a shooter at all.
知道这一点，并不能告诉你真正的开枪者是谁。
Knowing that does not tell you who was the shooter.
因此，在我们保持怀疑时，最常能得到的只是知道我们没有被
So often, the best we can get in our skepticism is to know that we are not being
告知真相。
told the truth.
我小时候觉得，自己对这个世界的真实运作方式非常天真。
When I grew up, I felt I feel like I was very naive to the nature of how the world really operates.
我做了越来越多的播客，坦白说，你会被邀请参加一些有趣活动，见到富人、名人和亿万富翁。
And the more I've done podcasts and frankly, you know, you you you get invited to interesting things and you meet, like, rich people and famous people and billionaires.
今年我去了达沃斯，我想人们可能觉得这让我成了某种……我不知道的人。
And I went to Davos this year, which I think people think makes me some kinda, like I don't know.
如果共济会的人在达沃斯，他们也没邀请我进那个房间。
I wasn't if there was if they Illumina are at Davos, they didn't invite me into that room.
但我确实见到了真正有权力的人、世界领袖，以及诸如此类的人物。
But I got to, like, I got to see, like, really powerful people and world leaders and all those kinds of things.
我在这里采访过这么多中情局特工，我了解到，有些事情正在我们视线之外发生。
And I've sat here and interviewed so many CIA spies, and I've learned that there are things going on out of plain sight.
因此，普通人一生中所认知的现实版本，与你过去几十年职业生涯中所了解的现实版本，究竟有何不同？
So the version of reality that the average person has as they go through their life, how has the work you've done over the last several decades of your career shifted your belief about the version of reality that actually exists?
它们到底哪里不一样？
Like, how how are they different?
所以我可以轻松回答，因为我以前就和你一样。
So I I can I can answer it easily because I was just like you?
我会说，我那时很天真。
I would say I was naive.
顺便说一下，我想快速承认，即使听了你刚才说的，我今天可能依然很天真，因为可能还存在更高一层、再高一层、再高一层的真相，是我没看到的，或者我选择不去看的。
And in fact, by the way, I wanna quickly acknowledge that I'm probably naive today even with what you've heard, because there may be a level above the level above the level above that that I'm not seeing or I'm choosing not to see.
我可以告诉你我自己的确切转变过程，和你很相似。
I can tell you the exact evolution for me, not dissimilar to you.
我是在五十年代和六十年代长大的。
I grew up in the fifties and sixties.
我一直相信法院总会做出公正的裁决。
I believe the courts will always come up with a fair decision.
我相信国税局只会因为正当理由才征税、毁掉别人，绝不会无端行事。
I believe that the IRS will only collect, money and destroy people with good reason, and they won't do it with bad reason.
我曾经相信一切。
I believed everything.
而且，在COVID之前，很多情况都是如此——直到我亲眼目睹了大规模疫苗接种和通过恐惧进行大规模管控的发生。
And the a lot of it right up until COVID, by the way, right up until seeing what went on with both mass vaccination and the the mass control through fear.
我想告诉你们我学到的东西。
Here's what I wanna tell you I've learned.
我认为这并不罕见。
It's not that unusual, I think.
我认为很容易接受这一点：人类和一千年前相比有什么不同吗？
I think it's easy to to embrace, which is that are human beings the same as they were a thousand years ago?
人类和凯撒时代相比有什么不同吗？
Are human beings the same as they were in Caesar's time?
顺便问一下，凯撒做了什么？
What did Caesar do, by the way?
一位凯撒。
A Caesar.
随便选一个罗马皇帝。
Pick a a Roman emperor.
他们想干什么就干什么。
Whatever the fuck they wanted to do.
他们想和谁发生关系就和谁发生关系。
They had sex with who and what they wanted.
八岁、十岁，男孩、女孩，随便什么都可以。
Eight years old, 10 years old, boy, girl, whatever it may be.
甚至在埃及的法鲁克国王时代，那是埃及最后几位国王之一。
Even in king Faruk's time in Egypt, one of the last kings of of Egypt.
如果你是客人，他们会告诉你，我们六点吃晚饭。
If you were a house guest, they'd say to you, you know, what we're gonna have dinner at six.
我们可以派人到你房间。
We can send somebody to your room.
你想要小男孩还是小女孩？
Do you want a young boy or young girl?
不要。
No.
这没什么可羞耻的。
No shame to it.
完全没问题。
No no problem whatsoever.
像你在达沃斯描述的那些富人和有权势的人，常常会想：我已经拥有了所有的钱。
The rich and powerful people, like the ones you were describing at Davos, often go from, I already have all the money.
我已经享尽了所有的名声。
I've already had all the fame.
我已经拥有了所有的影响力。
I've already had all the influence.
现在我还想做什么？
What do I wanna do now?
有时候，他们想做一些禁忌的事。
And sometimes they wanna do forbidden things.
出轨。
Have an affair.
让一个女孩住在公寓里。
Keep a girl in an apartment.
这些都很简单。
These are easy.
对吧？
Right?
欺骗我的妻子。
Cheat on my wife.
这些依然很简单。
These are easy still.
14岁的女孩。
14 year old girl.
哎呀。
Uh-oh.
越来越难了，但我已经做过其他所有事情了。
Not getting so easy anymore, but I've done all the other stuff.
而这就是Epstein事件吸引人的地方——那就是禁忌。
And that's what the Epstein piece appeals to, which is the forbidden.
我想在回答这个关于我的观点发生了什么变化的问题时尽量简洁，谈谈我是如何从起点走到今天的。
And I wanna be very concise in in answering this question about what changed, in terms of my view, how I've gotten you know, started where I started.
首先，我曾在政府工作，效力于里根政府。
First of all, I worked in government, worked in the Reagan administration.
我撒过谎。
I lied.
在我的职业生涯中，我多次做过欺骗性的事情。
I did things that were lies that were deceitful several times in my career.
如果你愿意，我稍后可以给你举几个例子。
I can give you examples in a minute if you want.
但为了促成起诉，我有时会勉强推进，只为把那些试图伤害客户的坏人绳之以法，或让他们被羁押更长时间。
But, you know, to to make a prosecution work, I I reached a bit, to get somebody, some bad guy who was trying to kill a client, you know, prosecuted or or in in custody for a longer period of time.
我参加过许多会议，会上讨论的问题不是‘我们该如何向公众说明这件事’，而是‘我们该对公众说什么’。
I was in many meetings where the questions were, this thing happened, not how shall we tell the public, but what shall we tell the public?
我们该怎么包装这件事？
How shall we spin this thing?
这在美国每一个企业的董事会里都是常态。
This is the norm in every corporate, boardroom in America.
并不是说，哦，婴儿爽身粉里含有致癌的石棉。
It's not, oh, there's there's a a cancer causing asbestos in the baby powder.
我想我们最好让所有人都知道。
I guess we better let everybody know.
那不是会议的重点。
That's not the meeting.
会议的重点是，通知FDA说这还在研究中。
The meeting is, let's notify the FDA and say it's under study.
这样如果有人问起，我们就能应付过去。
And so if we get asked, we'll get get through this thing.
顺便问一下，这些公司里谁会因为他们的所作所为而坐牢？
Who goes to jail, by the way, in these corporations for the shit they do?
阿片类药物等等。
Opioids, etcetera.
天啊。
My god.
比如，每年有十万人因止痛药引发心脏病而死亡。
A hundred thousand people dying from heart attacks from from a pain pill, for example.
Vioxx，天哪。
Vioxx, for god's sake.
我的意思是，这简直难以置信，却没人因此受罚。
The I mean, it's it's unbelievable, and nobody gets in trouble.
对吧？
Right?
公司会被罚款。
Companies are fined.
你知道在那本新书里，这些罚款对这些公司意味着什么吗？
You know what the fines mean to these companies in in that new book?
我给了你那些被禁止的事实。
I gave you Forbidden Facts.
我详细列出了所有制药公司被处以的刑事罚款、它们的支出以及尽管如此它们仍赚取的利润。
I I lay out what all the pharma companies have been fined criminally, what it cost them, and what they made nonetheless.
对吧？
Right?
当然，它们做出了正确的决定，因为从财务上看，它们赚得盆满钵满。
And of course, they made the right decision because financially, they they did very well.
但我想进入简洁的部分。
But I wanna get to the concise part.
把世界历史看作一个饼图。
Look at world history as a pie chart.
对吧？
Right?
整个历史就是以专制作为政府手段和控制方式。
The entire thing is tyranny as a government method, as a control method.
只有一小部分是代议制民主。
Just a tiny sliver is, representative democracy.
一小部分始于希腊、西欧和美国。
A little bit starting in Greece, Western Europe, The United States.
非常小的一部分。
Tiny sliver.
所以，我们的常态，史蒂文，是专制。
So our norm, Steven, is tyranny.
这对人类来说才是常态。
That is the norm for human beings.
那我所描述的这一小部分会怎样呢？
And what happens to that tiny sliver that I'm describing?
这一小部分总是趋向极权主义。
That tiny sliver always moves toward totalitarianism.
那意味着什么？
What does that mean?
这意味着我们所谓的代议制民主，比如在英国，目前在言论自由方面正面临巨大压力，或者在美国，这种制度正朝着极权主义发展，因为它始于立法。
It means that the the representative democracy we have, let's say, in The UK, which is pretty stressed right now in terms of of, freedom of speech, or in The United States, moves toward totalitarianism in that it says, it starts with we pass a law.
而美国宪法规定，如果没有法律禁止，你就可以做。
And if The US constitution says, if there isn't a law prohibiting it, you can do it.
而对于政府来说，宪法规定，如果没有法律允许，你就不能做。
And for government, it says, if there isn't a law allowing it, you cannot do it.
这就是美国宪法。
That's the US constitution.
这就是美国的方式。
That's The US method.
看看它现在变成了什么样子。
Well, look what it's become.
一旦法律通过，监管机构——那些非选举产生的官员——就会疯狂地按照自己的意愿解释和执行这项法律。
A law gets passed and then regulators, unelected officials, go fucking nuts on interpreting that law the way they want to and applying it the way they want to.
因此，它正朝着极权主义发展。
And so the the it moves toward totalitarianism.
美国每年通过四万条新法律。
40,000 new laws passed in The United States every year.
废除了多少条？
How many rescinded?
几乎一条都没有。
Almost none.
那我们现在在哪里？
So where are we now?
就在我们所在的美国，还是在英国？我们在历史的长河中处于什么位置？
Here in The United States where we both are sat or in The UK, where are we in the arc of history?
因为这似乎确实呈现出某种周期性。
Because it kinda does seem to move in sort of cycles.
现在，如果我们谈论的是我们当前所处的位置，比如西方社会或正在衰落的美国帝国。
Now, the we, if you're talking about where are we now, like Western society or The US, empire in decline.
首先，这算不算一个帝国？
And first of all, is it an empire?
显而易见。
Obviously.
对吧？
Right?
我们在海外有760个军事基地。
We have 760 military bases overseas.
760个。
760.
我们的国防预算（现在更准确地应称为战争预算，因为特朗普已将其更名为战争部）比其他国家都高。
We have a larger budget for what we call defense, now called war, since Trump has changed the name to Department of War more accurately.
我们的军费开支比世界上所有其他国家的总和还要高。
We have a larger budget than every other country in the world combined for military spending.
中国在海外有多少个军事基地？
How many overseas bases does China have?
我认为只有一个。
I think it's one.
现在，我不是说中国一切都很好。
Now, I'm not saying China's all lovely.
我只是说他们有另一种方法。
I'm just saying they have a different method.
他们的方法更接近我们六十年代的做法，那就是带着有益的帮助介入。
They have a method closer to what we had in the sixties, which was to come in with with beneficial help.
我们会重新修建你们的道路等等。
We'll redo your roads, etcetera, etcetera.
所以我们是一个帝国，而且是一个正在衰落的帝国。
So we're an empire, and we're an empire in decline.
刚才我说，暴政是人们被治理、权力如何行使的常态，这到底是怎么回事？
And a moment ago when I said that that tyranny is the normal state of affairs for, how people are governed, how is it exercised?
通过恐惧。
Through fear.
始终通过恐惧。
Always through fear.
恐惧是导致分裂的手段，而分裂正是权力的燃料。
Fear is the method that causes division, and division is the fuel of power.
也就是说，你希望民众彼此分裂。
Meaning, you want the population to be divided.
你希望有左派和右派。
You want the left and the right.
你希望有特朗普支持者、民主党人、永远的特朗普支持者、永不支持特朗普的人。
You want the the, Trumpers and the and the and the Democrats and the forever Trumpers and the never Trumpers.
分裂是所有世界领导人乐见的燃料。
Division is the fuel that all world leaders relish.
我用最清晰的方式给你举个例子。
I give you the example in the cleanest terms.
国王和王后俯瞰城堡城墙，当看到他们的臣民互相争斗时，就会彼此击掌庆祝。
The king and the queen look over the castle wall, and when they see their subjects fighting, they high five each other.
因为如果他们彼此争斗，就不会翻过城墙来反抗了，而墙总是存在的。
Because if the if they're fighting with each other, they're not coming over the wall, and there's always a wall.
但如果他们不互相争斗，那就是个大问题，因为那样的话他们就会翻过墙来。
And but if they're not fighting with each other, that's a big problem because then they're coming over the wall.
因为每个人心里都明白，等等。
Because everybody knows in their heart, wait a minute.
这些混蛋过着奢华到极致的生活，而我连孩子的饭都快吃不上了。
These fuckers are living in absolute luxury while I don't I can't afford to feed my kids.
他们的车队，无论是今天还是过去，那些华丽精致、由一群马拖着的马车从街上驶过，溅得我满身泥水。
That their their motorcades today and in those days, their, you know, beautiful ornate, wagons pulled by by a bunch of horses go by and splatter mud on me in the street.
到底有什么区别？
What really is the difference?
我的意思是，王室根本就是一场荒谬的骗局。
I mean, royalty is such a bullshit scam.
如果我们正处于一个衰落的帝国中，西方世界会怎样？
So what happens to the Western world if we're in a declining empire?
我来给你讲个乐观的版本，因为我有个好朋友住在开普敦，他有时会帮我分析这个问题。
I'll give you the the optimistic version, because I have a dear friend, happens to live in Cape Town, who helps me with this sometimes.
因为就像任何人一样，当我过多关注发生的事情时，我会感到沮丧。
Because like anybody, when I look a lot at, at at what happens, I can get discouraged.
我会变得愤世嫉俗。
I can get cynical.
这不是个适合居住的地方。
It's not a good place to live.
我认为托尼，也许他甚至在你的节目中说过，托尼·罗宾斯，你知道，你关注什么决定了你生活的质量。
I think Tony, maybe even he said it on your show, Tony Robbins, which is, you know, that what you focus on will determine, the quality of your life.
所以我可以选择关注制药公司和他们做的那些烂事，也可以选择关注自然的美，多花时间在大自然里，多陪陪我的孩子等等。
So I can focus on the pharma companies and all the shit they're doing or I can focus on on the beauty of of nature and spend more time in nature and spend more time with my kids, etcetera.
所以我的乐观答案，来自我在开普敦的挚友尼克·哈德森，是即使帝国衰落、社会衰退发生在演播室之外，
So my optimistic answer, which comes from a dear friend Nick Hudson in in Cape Town, is that even if empires decay and and social decay is is outside this studio.
它在伦敦。
It's in London.
它在纽约。
It's in New York.
它也在洛杉矶。
It's in Los Angeles.
它也在西雅图。
It's in Seattle.
它也在波特兰。
It's in Portland.
这是不可避免的。
It's unavoidable.
开车去洛杉矶看看。
Take a drive in Los Angeles.
你心里清楚。
You know it.
每一条高速公路的入口匝道。
Every freeway on ramp.
不是某些，而是全部。
Not some.
每一条高架桥下方都搭着帐篷，有人住在里面。
Every single one of them has tents underneath it with people living there.
这可不是什么好消息。
That is not good news.
但这里有个好消息。
And so but here's the good news part of it.
乐观的一面是，生存与繁荣始终会胜出，而且并不依赖这些体系。
The optimistic part of it is that survival and thriving always prevails and it does not rely on these systems.
也就是说，无论从精神层面还是科学层面来看，你就是你——本质上是一团能量，顺便说一句，这团能量并不需要这具身体。
Meaning, you are who you are as a in the spiritual sense or in the scientific sense, whatever way you wanna look at yourself as a as a collection of energy that doesn't need that body by the way.
对吧？
Right?
当这具身体消亡时，能量并不会消失。
The energy doesn't go anywhere when that body is done.
也就是说，能量依然存在。
Meaning, it's the energy is still there.
它是不可摧毁的。
It's not destructible.
因此它是不可摧毁的。
And so it's indestructible.
所以，你就是这个存在，这种觉知，这种意识。
So, you are this this being, this awareness, this consciousness.
如果我们今天走出去，周围所有的建筑都消失了，社会衰败加剧了，我们还会好吗？
And if around us, when we go outside here today, all the buildings are gone and social decay has accelerated, are we gonna be okay?
答案是肯定的。
And the answer is yes.
会发生什么？
What happens?
现在我们生活在森林里，我说，史蒂文，你木工技术不错，对吧？
Now we're living in the forest and now I say, Steven, you're pretty good at carpentry, right?
来加入我们吧。
Come join us.
你还会说，你很擅长种红薯吗？
And you say, you're good at planting sweet potatoes?
我们需要一些这种能力。
We need some of that.
我们来干吧。
Let's do that.
一小群人会重新开始，再次兴起，即使在核战争之后，或在各种灾难之后。
And small populations of people begin again, commence again, even after nuclear war, after a variety of things.
我知道对一些人来说这听起来很疯狂，但我从这个事实中获得希望和乐观：它并不依赖于电力是否正常运行。
And I know it's crazy to some people, but I take my my hope and my optimism from that fact, which is that it doesn't rely upon the electricity working.
它也不依赖于水管或污水处理系统是否正常运作。
It doesn't rely upon the plumbing working and the sewage system working.
最终，地球上仍有足够的自然土地，让我们能够像以前那样重新开始。
That eventually, there's enough of the earth, natural earth, for us to do what has happened before, which is start again.
我给你快速说一下这一点。
Give you a very fast aspect of this.
一千年前，有一千个小小的政府。
Thousand years ago, there's a thousand little governments.
日本有幕府将军。
There's shoguns in Japan.
有村庄。
There's villages.
有个人手下有三百人，他就是首领。
There's the guy has 300 people, and he's the chief.
然后就变成了你我生活中那样的情况，大约有190个国家。
Then it becomes what it was in your life and my life, which is about a 190 countries.
但这190个国家实际上主要围绕着五个权力中心。
But those 190 countries are really about five power centers.
对吧？
Right?
有北约。
There's NATO.
还有英国脱欧。
There's there's Brexit.
还有石油生产国。
There's the the, oil producing countries.
最终，这五个权力中心将缩减为两个。
And eventually, that five power centers will come to two power centers.
西方、美国和中国，这是我的预测，但未来可能会有其他人做出不同的预测。
The West, US, and China is my prediction, but it'll be somebody else's prediction who can do it differently.
然后这两个家伙站在同一个房间里，必须有一个杀死另一个。
And then those two fuckers are standing in a room together, and one has to kill the other.
这就是历史的进程。
That's the course of history.
事情一向如此。
That's how it goes.
历史上每个地理区域都是这样发展的，比如我们有三十个村庄。
That's how it goes in every geographical area in history, which is we've got 30 villages.
如果我能找到你的村庄，我们就抓走女人和孩子，杀死所有男人。
And if I can find your village, we'll take the women, we'll take the children, and we'll kill the men.
这只是一个数学问题。
And it's just a matter of math.
你们有多少人，我们这边又有多少人？
How many of there are of you, and how many are there of of our group?
我认为，尤其是对于我们这一代人来说，难以想象美国某天会与中国开战。
It's I think it's somewhat inconceivable, especially for people of my generation, to think that The US is at all at some point gonna be at war with China.
因为我们从未经历过世界大战。
Because we've never, you know, we never experienced a world war.
但由于如今核武器的存在，战争的代价如此之高，理论上它将不同于以往的战争。
But because the stakes are now so high with nuclear weapons, a war theoretically wouldn't be like previous wars.
那将是一场灾难。
It would be catastrophic.
这简直无法想象。
It's it's unimaginable.
有些人说，现在核战争已经让人感到抱歉了。
Some people say, now nuclear wars have sorry.
核武器现在阻止了我们轻易陷入第三次世界大战，如果它不会发生的话。
Nuclear weapons have now stopped us from getting into World War three as easily, and if it won't happen.
是的。
Yes.
有些人相信相互确保摧毁这一普遍概念，即任何一方都不会发动攻击。
Some people believe in that general concept of mutually assured destruction, which is that neither side will will do it.
但你说对你来说，想象这种情况几乎是不可能的，或者类似的意思。
But you said it's almost impossible for you to imagine or words to that effect.
我想帮助你进行这种想象。
I want to help you, with that imagining.
事情是这样的。
And it goes like this.
我们目前正与俄罗斯处于战争状态。
We are currently at war with Russia.
我们支持的不仅仅是乌克兰战争。
We are not supporting the the war in Ukraine only.
我们正在与俄罗斯交战，因为我们提供了卫星信息、电子战策略、无人机策略以及目标定位信息，这就是现代战争。
We are at war with Russia because we are providing satellite information, electronic warfare strategies, drone strategies, providing targeting information, and that is war today.
这就是战争。
That is war.
战争不仅仅是战场上拿着步枪的士兵。
War is not just the guys on the battlefield with rifles.
那只是低端的组成部分。
That's the low end element.
高端的组成部分是高超音速导弹，俄罗斯拥有它们；高端的组成部分还包括情报和卫星技术，以及各种正在发生的行动。
The high end element is supersonic missiles, which Russia has, and the high end element is intel and satellite technology and the wide variety of things that are going on.
其中一些甚至没有登上新闻，但发生在俄罗斯时，他们会说：‘天哪。’
Some of which aren't even in the news, by the way, that go on in Russia and they say, oh, shit.
或者发生在乌克兰时，他们会说：‘天哪。'
Or that go on in Ukraine and they say, oh, shit.
俄罗斯人已经明白了这一点。
The Russians have figured out that thing.
但美国在技术上远远超越了世界上其他国家。
But The US is so far beyond other countries in the world in terms of technology.
因此，这就是我们与俄罗斯的战争。
And so that is war with Russia.
你可以说，我们与北越的战争实际上是与中国的战争。
And you could say that our war with North Vietnam was war with China.
但现在，这已经毫无疑问了。
But now, there's just no question about it.
所以，史蒂文，我刚才说了这么多，是想让你的想象力更贴近现实。
So, that was a long answer, Steven, to say I wanna get you your imagination closer.
我们已经与俄罗斯处于战争状态。
We're already at war with Russia.
许多公司都会经历一个阶段，在这个阶段，他们不再专注于最重要的事情——销售，而是被大量的行政事务拖累。
There's a phase a lot of companies hit where they're no longer doing the most important thing, which is selling, and they get really bogged down with admin.
这往往是一个缓慢渗透的过程，等你察觉时，已经发生了。
And it's often something that creeps up slowly, and you don't really notice until it's happened.
慢慢地，动力开始流失。
Slowly, momentum starts to leak out.
我们自己就遇到过这种情况，而我十年前发现的Pipedrive正是解决这个问题的办法。
This happened to us and our sponsor Pipedrive was a fix I came across ten years ago.
从那以后，我在不同公司里的团队一直持续使用它。
And ever since, my teams across my different companies have continued to use it.
Pipedrive是一款简单但功能强大的销售CRM系统，能让你清晰掌握销售漏斗中的所有交易进展。
Pipedrive is a simple but powerful sales CRM that gives you the visibility on any deals in your pipeline.
它还能自动化销售过程中大量繁琐、重复且耗时的环节，从而每月为你节省大量时间，让你能重新专注于销售工作。
It also automates a lot of the tedious, repetitive, and time consuming parts of the sales process, which in turn saves you so many hours every single month, which means you can get back to selling.
尽早决定转向Pipedrive是一个真正的转折点，它帮助我们始终聚焦于正确的事情。
Making that early decision to switch to Pipedrive was a real game changer, and it's kept the right things front of mind.
我最喜爱的功能是Pipedrive能够将CRM与多个邮箱账户同步，让整个团队都能在一个平台上协同工作。
My favorite feature is Pipedrive's ability to sync your CRM with multiple email inboxes so your entire team can work together from one platform.
而且我们并不是唯一受益的人。
And we aren't the only ones benefiting.
超过十万家公司使用Pipedrive来推动业务增长。
Over a 100,000 companies use Pipedrive to grow their business.
所以，如果你觉得我所说的有共鸣，请前往 pipedrive.com/ceo，你可以获得三十天的免费试用，无需信用卡或任何付款。
So if something I've said resonates, head over to pipedrive.com/ceo, where you can get a thirty day free trial, no credit card or payment required.
我刚刚投资的这家公司正在疯狂增长。
This company that I've just invested in is growing like crazy.
我想亲自告诉你关于它的事情，因为我相信它能为你带来巨大的生产力优势。
I wanna be the one to tell you about it because I think it's gonna create such a huge productivity advantage for you.
Whisper Flow 是一款可以在你的电脑和手机、所有设备上使用的应用，它让你能够与科技对话。
Whisper Flow is an app that you can get on your computer and on your phone on all your devices, and it allows you to speak to your technology.
所以，我不用写邮件，只需在手机上点一个按钮，就能直接口述生成邮件。
So instead of me writing out an email, I click one button on my phone and I can just speak the email into existence.
它利用人工智能来优化我所说的内容。
And it uses AI to clean up what I was saying.
当我完成后，我只需点击这里这个按钮，整封邮件就自动生成了。
And then when I'm done, I just hit this one button here and the whole email is written for me.
它每天为我节省了大量时间，因为Whisper会学习我的写作风格。
And it's saving me so much time in a day because Whisper learns how I write.
所以在WhatsApp上，它知道我比较随意；而在邮件中，它知道我更专业一些。
So on WhatsApp, it knows how I am a little bit more casual, on email a little bit more professional.
而且，他们最近还做了一件非常有趣的事。
And also, there's this really interesting thing they've just done.
我可以创建一些小短语，让系统自动为我完成工作。
I can create little phrases to automatically do the work for me.
我只需说‘Jack的LinkedIn’，它就会自动复制Jack的LinkedIn个人资料，因为它知道Jack是谁。
I can just say Jack's LinkedIn, and it copies Jack's LinkedIn profile for me because it knows who Jack is in my life.
这为我节省了大量时间。
This is saving me a huge amount of time.
这家公司正在疯狂增长，这就是我投资这家公司的原因，也是他们现在成为本节目赞助商的原因。
This company is growing like absolute crazy, and this is why I invested in the business and why they're now a sponsor of this show.
而WhisperFlow frankly正成为商业生产力和创业领域最不成秘密的秘密。
And WhisperFlow is frankly becoming the worst kept secret in business productivity and entrepreneurship.
现在就去WhisperFlow查看吧，网址是wisprflow.ai/steven。
Check it out now at WhisperFlow, spelled wisprflow.ai/steven.
它将会为你带来革命性的改变。
It will be a game changer for you.
说到疯狂的武器，我读到一个故事，说你曾与中情局一起进行了一次参观，他们给你展示了一只机械蜻蜓，是的。
Speaking of crazy weapons, I was, I was reading about a story where you did a a tour with the CIA, and they showed you a mechanical dragonfly Yeah.
它还配有电池。
With a battery.
他们给你展示了什么？
What what what did they show you?
嗯，我多年来一直与这家机构有大量合作，这一点早已公开。
Well, I've given a a I've had a lot to do with with the agency that's been that's been public over the years.
我当时正在做一场演讲，之后他们带我去参观了中情局博物馆。
And I was giving a talk, then afterwards, they took me on a tour to a CIA museum.
他们给我看了很多东西。
They showed me a lot of things.
哦，这是那位在俄罗斯上空被击落的飞行员鲍尔斯戴过的头盔。
Oh, here's the helmet that was worn by that pilot who was shot down over Russia named Powers.
各种有趣的纪念品。
All kinds of interesting memorabilia.
其中有一个像蜻蜓大小的机械蜻蜓。
And one of them was a little dragonfly, the size of a dragonfly, and it was mechanical.
我仔细看了看，心想，哇，这真是太棒了。
And I looked at it real closely and thought, wow, that that's really fantastic.
非常有趣。
It's very interesting.
他说：你一点问题都没有吗？
And he said, you don't have any questions at all?
我说：没有。
I said, no.
我的意思是，我明白。
I mean, I I get it.
他说，你为什么不问我这是什么时候制造的？
And he said, why don't you ask me when it was built?
我说，好啊。
And I said, okay.
它是什么时候制造的？
When was it built?
1967年。
1967.
在1967年，那时我们还没有任何微型电子设备或电动装置，中央情报局就已经制造出了这个小东西。
In 1967, before we had any miniaturized electronics or motorization, the CIA had built that little thing.
它是一个小型相机，能像蜻蜓一样在这里飞行，然后飞回家，我不知道它能拍多少张照片。
And, and it was a a little camera that would fly around in here as a dragonfly and then, and then, you know, fly home and I don't know how many pictures it held.
但我想和你分享一个关于人工智能的有趣故事：人们常常好奇，人工智能到底有多先进，它又在哪里？
But it's an interesting piece that I wanna share with you about AI, which is people wonder, you know, how sophisticated is AI and and where is it?
我相信，我们所能接触到的一切，比如人工智能，很可能都是美国情报机构十年前就拥有的东西。
My belief is that everything we have access to, like AI, we probably have something that the US intelligence had ten years ago.
我们可能已经在使用一些相当老旧的技术了。
We're probably dealing with something quite old already.
我正在看这只蜻蜓的照片。
I'm just looking at the a picture of this Dragonfly.
哦，我都不知道这东西已经公开了。
Oh, it's I didn't even know it was public.
这就是那个家伙。
This That's the fucker.
他在这儿呢。
There he is.
就是这个小东西。
This little thing here.
是的。
Yeah.
而且，你知道，正如你所说，这个东西是差不多50年前制造的。
And, you know, this was made, as you say, what, almost 50 ago.
所以人们只能想象他们现在拥有的技术会是什么样子。
So one can only imagine the type of technology they have now.
当然。
Oh, of course.
我的意思是，他们根本不需要真的飞一架蜻蜓进来，因为我们已经有这么多电子设备了。
I mean, they they don't even need to fly a dragonfly in because we have all these electronic devices.
当然。
Of course.
他们可以远程开启我们的设备，可能是你的苹果手表，但肯定能操控你的手机。
They can they can turn on our devices, probably your watch if it's an Apple Watch, but certainly your phone.
而且，是的，我们正在参与一个过程——我甚至都不愿称之为实验，你肯定读过《1984》，你的大部分观众也读过。
And yeah, we are participating in, I won't even call it an experiment, but a process that you read 1984, I'm sure, and most of your audience did.
在新冠疫情初期，我很欣慰地看到《1984》成为全球英语畅销书第十七名，这告诉我：啊，人们真的在关注了。
I was very heartened during the beginning of COVID that 1984 became the seventeenth best selling book in the world in the English language, telling me, ah, people are paying attention.
他们意识到，自己在这里所经历的，带有一定的《1984》色彩。
They see that what they're experiencing here has a degree of '19 84 to it.
我认为所有的科幻故事最终都会成真。
I think all science fiction stories come true.
我真的这么认为。
I really do.
我一次又一次地看到这种情况。
I see it time after time.
你有什么建议给
What advice would
我的听众，关于如何在我们当今所处的世界中应对？
you give to my listeners about how to navigate in the world we're living in today?
你知道的，如何规避风险和威胁，无论是像你所说的软组织方面，还是我们的隐私或整体生活安全。
You know, to avoid risk, threat, you know, whether that's of our soft tissue, as you said, or just with our privacy or lives generally.
那么，这些建议该从哪里开始呢？
Like, where does the advice start?
关于 Bayt 播客
Bayt 提供中文+原文双语音频和字幕，帮助你打破语言障碍，轻松听懂全球优质播客。