与骰子塔共进晚餐——人群控制

我们不在乎参与的人数多少，只要大家都玩得开心就行。

We we don't care if the group is small as long as everyone's having a good time.

我记得去年我们做过一次，特别精彩。

We I remember we did it last year, and it was a blast.

每次都这样。

It just always is.

是的。

Yeah.

我们曾在其中一场活动中收到过求婚。

We've had a proposal at one of them.

你知道的，发生过各种有趣的事情。

You know, the there's all sorts of fun things that have happened.

虽然有些活动比其他的好，但我不知道我们是否还能重现当初在几届Origins展上那种热闹疯狂的氛围。

And while some of them are better than others, and I don't know that we'll ever reach the raucous, insane level that we had at a couple of the origins.

当然。

Sure.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

但这些都很棒，答题节目做起来就是很有趣。

But these are good, and game shows are just fun to do.

我和埃里克彼此配合得非常好。

Eric and I, we really riff off each other pretty well.

我们每年在邮轮上都会做两场，但这些是答题节目。

We do two on the cruise every year, but these are game shows.

有些人就是靠这个吃饭的。

There's people who this is their job.

我知道至少有两个人靠参加答题节目为生，或者至少作为副业。

I know at least two people who go around and do game shows as a living or at least as a side job.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

而且确实有人可以做这件事。

And there are people you can do that.

你可以请他们来，他们会布置好一切。

You can have them come, and they'll set up stuff.

事实上，当我参加国际游乐园协会（IAPA）会议时，那里有个家伙就在卖运营游戏节目的设备。

In fact, when I was at the IAPA conference, the International Amusement Parks Association, they had a guy there who that's what he was selling, stuff to run game shows.

当年我去的时候，是在奥兰多的尼克儿童频道酒店，愿它安息。

When I went to the back in the day, it was at, state at the Nickelodeon Hotel in Orlando, rest in peace.

他们做了一个类似《双倍危险》游戏节目的版本。

They did, a sort of version of the Double Dare game show.

不完全一样。

Not quite.

没有听起来那么刺激。

It wasn't as exciting as it sounds.

他们把人弄脏了，但也就这样了。

They slimed people, but that was about it.

但我还是去看了，因为不去白不去？

But still, I went and watched it because why not?

你知道的。

You know?

这些活动确实能吸引人，但游戏节目是适合所有人的。

And so these things will bring people in, but game shows are for everyone.

那游戏玩家呢？

But what about gamers?

是的。

Yes.

所以我在想，很多年前，恩格尔斯坦家族在推广他们的游戏《太空菜鸟》，有人提议不如做个现场活动版。

So I'm thinking something along the lines of, oh, many years ago, the the Engelsteins were promoting their game Space Cadets, and somebody along the line said, let's do a live event version of this.

于是他们，你知道的，《太空菜鸟》是一款多人合作游戏，包含很多小迷你游戏。

And so they you know, Space Cadets is the cooperative game with a bunch of little mini games.

你正在驾驶一艘宇宙飞船，武器手正在朝目标射击类似鳄鱼圆盘的东西，另一个人在解谜题，还有人从袋子里摸索出零件。

You're piloting a spaceship, and so the weapons person is shooting, like, croconal disks at targets, and somebody else is doing puzzles, and somebody else is reaching into a bag and finding pieces.

他们都在各自玩自己的小游戏，以完成驾驶宇宙飞船的任务。

And they're all doing their little mini games to perform the tasks of flying the starship.

于是他们把一切都炸飞了。

And so they blew everything up.

他们用的武器是泡沫泳池棒做成的标枪。

The the the weapons used pool noodle javelins.

我们在地板上贴了巨大的数字，人们从大厅另一端朝目标投掷。

We we put giant numbers on the floor, and people were throwing at the targets all the way across a ballroom.

我们安排了十人一组的大团队，共同完成同一个任务，结果演变成了一场盛大的活动。

We had giant, like, 10 person groups all trying to do one particular task, and it blew up into a giant thing.

也许有些难以掌控，但我们把这个桌游变成了持续数小时、容纳百人的体验。

Unwieldy, perhaps, but we turned this board game into a 100 person experience that lasted several hours.

是的。

Yeah.

所以做这些事情的时候，需要考虑很多因素。

And so that's kind of, there's a lot of factors to take into place while doing these.

所以我们先说说我们做过的一些事情，然后再回头讨论这些因素。

So we're gonna mention some of the stuff we did, and then we'll come back and talk about the factors.

我们做过的一个项目是《魔法运动员》，最近它又重新流行起来了。

One of the things we did was Magical Athlete, which has now has a resurgence recently.

有人说，嘿。

Someone said, hey.

你想来一场现场的《魔法运动员》吗？

Do you wanna do a live Magical Athlete?

我说，嗯，我们以前在那儿做过《魔法运动员》，已经做过了。

And I said, well, we did magical athlete there, done that.

骰子塔。

Dice tower.

这大概是2018年或者2019年的事。

This was, like, 2018 or 2019.

那个秘密小团体，是个特别搞笑的播客，我们邀请他们参与这个活动，我觉得这一定会特别搞笑。

The secret cabal, who was a very funny podcast, we invited them to be part of this, and I said this would be hilarious.

我们会让人来扮演魔法运动员中的角色。

We'll have people be the things for Magical Athlete.

他们会按照指示去做任何事情。

They will do whatever it says.

我们会让人来掷骰子。

We'll have people roll the dice.

这一定会特别搞笑。

It will be hilarious.

你知道的吧？

You know?

嗯哼。

Uh-huh.

我现在应该明白，如果我说某件事会很好笑，那它肯定不会好笑。

I should know by now that if I say something is gonna be hilarious, it will not be.

不知为什么，这是咱们做过的最无趣的节目之一。

For some reason, this is one of the duddiest shows we've ever done.

确实很无聊，而且

It is very And

我想说得清楚一点。

I wanna be really clear.

我完全不怪神秘团体。

I'm not blaming Sir Cabal at all.

他们只是有点像：不。

They were just kinda like No.

我们非得在这儿吗？

Do we have to be here?

就像，他们是客人。

It's like, they're guests.

但就是没效果。

And it just didn't work.

在我脑子里，这听起来特别搞笑。

In my head, it sounded hilarious.

在我脑子里，有人在场，掷骰子、移动棋子，我觉得会比实际更有趣。

In my head, having people be there, you roll the dice and the people move, I thought it would be funnier than it was.

是的。

Yes.

但那根本行不通。

But that did not work.

然后你在这儿写下了《东京之王》。

And then you wrote down here king of Tokyo.

那款游戏在Origins展上展出过很长时间。

That's been at Origins that was at Origins for a long time.

我记得泽连斯基夫妇以前总是说，

I remember the Zelensky's used to be like,

什么

what are

你在做什么？

you doing?

东京之王和巨无霸版。

King of Tokyo and mega.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

有一年，我的孩子们去参加Origins展会，他们排着队等着玩，迫不及待地要掷那些巨大的骰子。

Well, the one year my kids, came to origins, they were lined up to do it and and couldn't wait to throw the giant dice.

而且那里有四英尺高的东京角色立牌，非常有趣。

And and they were, like, four feet tall standees that were the Tokyo characters, and it was a lot of fun.

而且吸引了很多人围观。

And it drew a crowd.

我的意思是，它只是标准游戏的一个大型版本，但他们把它办成了一个竞技活动，非常精彩。

I mean, it was just sort of a large version of the standard game, but they would run it like an arena event, and it was it was a great time.

那是什么《星际迷航》的东西？

What is a Star Trek thing?

我错过了这个。

I missed this one.

你当时没在场。

You weren't there.

这是在PAX上发生的。

This was at PAX.

我们的朋友Flip Flory组织了这个活动，他已经做过几次了，他做了一个巨大的经典VCR游戏《星际迷航：下一代》的棋盘，企业号被卡沃克或一个克林贡人劫持，那人会大喊‘体验比吉’和各种糟糕的事情。

Our friend Flip Flory put together, and he's done this a couple times now, made a giant board of the classic VCR game Star Trek The Next Generation, where the Enterprise gets, hijacked by Kavok or a Klingon, guy, who who yells, experience bij and all of these these terrible things.

但他把它做成了一个大型竞技活动，我有幸成为嘉宾评委之一，在巨大的游戏板上跑来跑去，掷骰子，并且每当VCR事件发生时都要暂停。

But he did it as a large arena event, and I got to be one of the guest panelists and ran around on a giant game board, rolling dice, and and then having to pause whenever the VCR events would happen.

观众也参与进来，拿着玩家的行动卡，在特定时刻打出这些卡，相当于在观众席里有一个队友。

And and the crowd got involved by, holding the cards, the action cards that the players had, and and playing them at particular times and and sort of having a teammate in the audience.

我最终乘坐穿梭机逃脱，并赢得了整场游戏。

I ended up escaping in a shuttle craft, and and winning the whole game.

这太精彩了，但规模很大，还有人穿着服装。

It was a blast, but it was this large there were costumes.

还有道具。

There were props.

有纸板做的穿梭机。

There were cardboard shuttle crafts.

那真是一段美好的时光。

It was a great time.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯，Flip 还组织过一个《卡坦岛/扭扭乐》游戏，我在这里列出来了，对。

The well, Flip also ran one I put on the list here, the Catan slash Twister game Yes.

我在 TotalCon 上玩过一次，他不知道怎么搞出了这些规则，而且规则糟透了。

That I played at TotalCon where somehow he had these rules, and they're terrible rules.

就连 Flip 自己也会同意这一点。

Even Flip would agree on this.

不知怎么搞的

That somehow

我觉得是的。

I think so.

你当时在掷骰子，但同时还有扭扭乐参与其中，那是将近二十年前的事了，那时我几乎都玩不了扭扭乐。

You were rolling dice, but also then there would be Twister was involved, and this was almost twenty years ago, and I could barely play Twister then.

我记得就是那时我决定再也不玩扭扭乐了，但那个组合也很特别。

I remember this was when I decided I was never playing Twister again, but also the combination.

但那场面 probably 很有趣。

But it was probably funny to watch.

确实是。

It was.

我没玩。

I didn't play.

我忘了你玩过，但我看了，而且玩得很开心。

I had forgotten that you had, but I did watch, and I had a great time.

是的。

Yeah.

那是以前，那时候智能手机的东西已经太多了。

That was before, there was too much smartphone stuff in existence.

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yes.

没错。

That's true.

这些视频 anywhere 都不存在。

These videos don't exist anywhere.

我们在游轮上玩过。

We did on the cruise.

我们玩过一个基于积木的桌面角色扮演游戏，那个游戏到底叫什么来着？

We did a Jenga based RPG that's sort of what's the actual one called?

Dread。

Dread.

有一款游戏叫《Dread》。

There's a game Dread.

但没错。

But That's right.

所以它受到了《Dread》的启发。

So it was inspired by Dread.

我们并没有完全照搬《Dread》。

We didn't quite do Dread.

我们做了一个非常有趣的变体版本，这让我想到一件事——总之，我们当时让Dice Tower团队在舞台上进行各种角色扮演游戏，时不时他们就得做一个测试：从积木塔里抽出一块放到顶部，但他们自己做不到。

We did a very fun variant of it, which leads me to something that well, anyway, what we did was we the the Dice Tower gang was on the stage doing just various RPG stuff, and every once in while, they had to do a test, and they had to take a Jenga block out of the tower and put it on top, but they couldn't do it.

他们必须从观众中找一个人来完成这个动作。

They had to pick someone from the audience to do it.

但在游戏开始前，我从观众里挑了大约十到十五个人，告诉他们他们是外星人。

But before the RPG started, I grabbed, I don't know, ten, fifteen people from the audience and told them they were aliens.

所以一旦被点到，他们就会故意搞砸积木塔。

So if they got called, they were gonna mess up the Jenga.

他们还得主动举手，如果有人问‘谁想来？’

And they also had to volunteer if they would say, who wants to do it?

他们会举手，而Daystar团队只能从举手的人中挑选。

They would raise their hand, and the Daystar gang could only pick from people raising their hands.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

所以这个办法效果非常好。

So that worked really well.

这太搞笑了，这也让我想起了我过去的经历。

It was hilarious, and this is where I went back to in my past.

我当时就想，你知道吗？

I was like, you know what?

有时候事情只在一次时能成功。

Sometimes things work well once.

你做了一次，然后就结束了，这是一次很棒的临时活动，你会说，我不确定是否想再做一次，因为你不知道能不能再重现那种魔力。

And you do it, and you move on, and it was a great one time event, and you say, not sure I wanna go back and do it again because you don't know if you can recapture that magic.

对。

Right.

就是不知道这些规则，然后被告知之后，才意识到有一部分观众其实是在跟你作对。

It was the the not knowing that these were the rules and then being told that and then realizing that a certain percentage of the audience was working against you.

而那些举手的人，也许他们举手是因为他们是外星人，真的想搞砸你。

And the people raising their hands, maybe they're raising their hands because they're aliens and they really wanna mess you up.

所以每次这种测试发生时，那种紧张感都非常棒。

So that tension every time one of those tests happened was fantastic.

事实上，那个故事我几乎记不清了，但我还记得一些关键时刻——当一个关键行动正在进行时，有人抽出一块积木，直接把整个结构推倒了，因为那个人从头到尾都是外星人。

In fact, the story I barely remember the story, but I do remember some of those moments when a critical action was trying to happen and somebody pulls out a Jenga piece and then just knocks everything over because they were an alien the whole time.

那真是段美好的时光。

That was a good time.

但现在知道了这些，人们参加活动时就会希望成为外星人，或者琢磨策略，而台上的主持人却不知道，他们从一开始就得面对这种潜在的威胁。

But now knowing that, people would come to the event hoping to be an alien or, you know, figuring out strategies, and the, panel on stage would not know would would have would have it approaching differently, because they know, that there's there's that danger from the very beginning.

还有大型游戏。

There's also giant games.

所以我把疫情放在这里，因为疫情实际上我见过两种不同的玩法。

So I put pandemic here because pandemic actually, I've seen it done two different ways.

一种是大型疫情游戏。

One is giant pandemic.

去年在Dice Tower East举办的。

It was at Dice Tower East last year.

巨大的方块。

Huge blocks.

所有人都在玩。

Everyone playing.

你可以随时进来观看。

You could come in, and you could watch.

但还有一种是疫情锦标赛。

But, also, there's then the pandemic tournament.

那是一种锦标赛，而锦标赛有点特别。

Now that's a tournament, so tournaments are kind of weird.

但那个疫情锦标赛是我一直饶有兴致观看的，就是为了看Z和埃里克在试图击败疫情时额头上渗出的汗珠。

But the pandemic tournament was one I watched with great intrigue just to see the sweat bead on Z and Eric's faces as they try to beat pandemic.

每个人手中的牌都是一样的。

Everyone has the same cards and stuff.

但那个比赛，我不知道是否能在现场舞台上很好地呈现，不过也许可以。

But that one, I don't know, would work on a live stage as much, but it could.

我看过，我是黑暗领主。

I've watched, I Dark Overlord.

哦。

Oh.

这个我确实记得。

This was actually, I remember this.

这发生在我们那年做的那个大获成功的音乐节目之前。

This was before the music show that we did that one year, that one that was gangbusters.

我当时对此紧张极了。

And I was so nervous about it.

我提前去了名为iDark Overlord的演出，当时一群其他播客主持人正在现场玩iDark Overlord。

I went early to the show beforehand called iDark Overlord where a bunch of other podcasters were playing iDark Overlord live.

不错。

Nice.

不过，它并没有达到应有的效果。

Well, it didn't work as well as it should have.

我认为部分原因是舞台上的每个人都需要真正投入进节目里。

And I think part of that is everyone on stage needs to get into the show.

所以，你知道，做这类节目时，它们如果有点傻乎乎的，反而效果会更好，这不是玩笑。

So that's, you know, one of the things that you that you do with these is these things work better, no no joke, if they're stupid to some degree.

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yeah.

如果太像一个游戏，就没什么空间去搞怪和娱乐了。

If it's too much of a game, there's not a lot of room for being silly and being entertaining.

是的。

Yeah.

你说得对。

You're right.

你得投入进去。

You gotta commit.

你得投入进去，事实就是并不是每个人都能做到。

You gotta commit, and the the fact of the matter is not everyone can do it.

有些时候，你会提到一些人或者安排一些内容，但你至少需要有几个人来维持局面。

Now some things, you you're gonna bring up people or have stuff, but you need to have at least a few people who keep things going.

这非常重要，我怎么强调都不为过。

It's really important, and I cannot stress this enough.

活动的组织者必须牢牢掌控，主导整个活动，随时准备应对变化。

The people running the event must be firmly in charge, run that event, be ready to maneuver.

如果有什么不行，就直接删掉。

Something doesn't work, you cut it.

有些东西，你知道，拖得太久的话，你就得缩短它。

Something's, you know, something's going too long, you shorten it.

有些东西挺搞笑的，也许值得再做一次。

Something was funny, maybe it's worth doing that again.

你知道，有人做了些你没想到的事，那就把它融入进去。

You know, someone does something you weren't expecting, build it in.

你需要那个人来主导，而且你得带着某种计划进场。

You you need that person to run it, and and you gotta go in with some sort of plan.

因为有时候的想法是，哦，这个会很好笑，我们来做吧，结果计划却行不通。

Because the idea sometimes is, oh, this will be funny, and let's do it, and then the plan doesn't work.

而且，我再举个Magic Lothly的例子。

And again, I'll go back to Magic Lothly.

我脑子里有一些搞笑的点子，但当它们没奏效时，我其实很不确定。

I had some of the funny ideas in my head, and when they didn't work, I wasn't really sure.

我没有备用方案来应对和调整。

I didn't have any backup plans of how to how to maneuver it.

是的

Yeah.

好的

Okay.

是的

Yeah.

是的

Yeah.

我知道

I know.

你需要顺应局势，但这也是这类事情的奇妙之处。

You need to, to go with the flow, and and but that's also the magic of these sort of things.

当中间发生意想不到的事情，并演变成一个持续的笑点时。

When something unexpected happens in the middle, and it becomes a running gag.

它就变成了一种主题。

It becomes a theme.

你接纳它，而现在它成了这件事中最令人难忘的部分，而你原本根本不知道它会成为其中一环。

You you embrace it, And and now now it's the memorable aspect of this thing, that that you didn't know was going to be part of it.

这一切都关乎灵活应对。

It's it's all about being agile and reactive.

你必须牢牢把握整体方向，但也要愿意接纳那些让这一切如此奇妙的元素。

You have to keep a a firm control in the general direction of things, but be willing to embrace those things that make it such a magical thing.

是的。

Yeah.

有时候，某些事情就会自然而然地出现。

Sometimes and some sometimes things just present themselves.

比如，埃里克和我玩‘智慧与赌注’游戏，我不记得具体是什么时候了，但有一次，我们决定加入一个前十名榜单之类的元素，作为前十内容放了进去。

So for example, Eric and I do the wits and wagers game, and I don't remember when it was, but one time, we were like, we'll throw a top 10 list or something we threw in there as a top 10 thing.

结果效果特别好，成了节目最精彩的部分之一，所以我们一直保留了下来。

And it worked so well and became one of the best parts of the show that we kept it in.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为，北星实际上把这个问题作为附加题来做了。

Well, I think, that was something that North Star actually did as a bonus question.

这一直都是其中的一部分，但我认为它并不一定是一个前十名列表。

That was that was always part of it, but I don't think it was necessarily a top 10 list.

它的结构并没有那么明确，但他们确实在中间加入了前十名或附加题，试图为系统注入一些奖金，让游戏更热闹。

It wasn't quite structured that way, but they did work top or, bonus questions into the middle to try and infuse some cash into the system and make it a more raucous game.

好的。

Okay.

那让我来给他们应有的认可，我们可不能把功劳据为己有。

Well, then let me give them the credit so we don't steal it for ourselves.

我还有一个想法，也许这听起来有点奇怪，但我想要做点属于我们自己的东西。

I also have the maybe this is weird, but I wanna do something that I'm doing, you know, that is us.

就像‘赌输赢’，我们就是这么做的。

So like whits and wagers, we do that.

我肯定别人也玩‘赌输赢’，但我们有自己的系统。

I'm sure other people do whits and wagers too, but we have our own system.

我们当然了。

We Sure.

我们得到了北星的许可来使用这个玩法，然后就一直延续了下来。

We've we got the permission from North Star to run with it, and then we just never stopped.

我们知道，我们已经做了将近二十年的‘Whits and Wagers’了。

And we know we've been doing whits and wagers for almost twenty years now.

这已经成了一种传统。

It's it's a thing.

但如果我知道别人在做某件事，我就不愿意直接照搬。

But if I know someone else does something, I'm I'm hesitant to copy them.

举个好例子，埃里克在清单上列出了我们喜欢玩的游戏，他列了‘Hot Streak’。

So a good example, Eric put on the list games we like to do, and he put Hot Streak.

我同意，埃里克。

So I agree, Eric.

Hot Streak 真的很棒，以至于卡米拉和我为了《Dice Diaries》还专门上网去查了。

Hot Streak would be amazing to the point where Camilla and I for Dice Diaries, we went online.

我们核算了所有服装的价格。

We priced out all the costumes.

顺便说一下，熊的服装可能非常贵。

By the way, a bear costume can be very expensive.

哦，哇。

Oh, wow.

好吧。

Okay.

但确实可能很贵。

Well, it can be.

你可以买便宜的服装之类的东西。

You can buy cheap costumes and stuff.

但我们当时在核算价格，然后我决定去看看TantrumCon的照片，他们已经做过这个了。

But we were we were pricing it out, and then I decided to go look at the pictures from TantrumCon, and they did it.

他们已经做过了。

They did it already.

他们是在Hot Street上现场做的，我当时就想，好吧。

Live They did on Hot Street, and I was like, alright.

那我就拖着不干，明年再做吧。

Well, I'll drag my feet and do it another year then.

因为我不想看起来是在抄袭他们，尽管我们根本没抄。

Because I don't wanna look like I'm copying them even though we weren't.

当然。

Sure.

但而且，这本质上是个为此设计的游戏。

But and, again, it's kind of a game built for that.

你可以玩《骆驼赛跑》。

You could do camel up.

你可以，你知道的，玩一些竞速类游戏，有些游戏似乎就是为此而设计的。

You could you know, some racing games, some games seem to be built for this.

我的意思是，那样是没错，但你同时也要避免我们之前讨论的《魔法运动员》里的那些坑。

Well, I mean, that's the then but then you're also trying to avoid the pitfalls that we were talking about with Magical Athlete.

你知道，现场看比赛可能很有趣，但如果你只是站在那里，也可能有点无聊。

You know, watching a race live can be entertaining, but it can also be sort of dull if you're just standing there.

你知道，如果人们只是像棋子一样站在那里等待轮到自己移动，那会让进程变得很慢。

You know, if if people are just pawns and they're standing there waiting for their turn to move, that can slow things down a lot.

魔法运动员桌游版之所以如此有趣，原因之一是它进行得非常快。

One of the things that made magical athlete in board game version so entertaining is that it moves so fast.

当你实际进行赛跑回合时，掷完骰子后，一大堆事情会接连发生，所有人都在笑。

When you're actually doing the racing turns, you roll the dice, then a whole bunch of things cascade, and everyone's laughing.

然后你再掷一次骰子。

And then you roll the dice again.

但当你必须等待真人移动时，这就拖慢了节奏。

And when you have to wait for humans to move, then that that slows it down.

所以我很想知道，他们在现场版的Hot Streak中做了什么来保持节奏流畅。

So I'm I'm curious what they were able to do to keep things moving in a live version of Hot Streak.

是的。

Yeah.

我们做过类似《准备好了吗，下注吧》这样的游戏，或者它的巨型版本，埃里克在这里写下的就是观众参与。

And we've done games like Ready, Set, Bet, or it's a giant version of that, but that's something Eric wrote down here is audience participation.

第六代骰子一直在这方面做得很好。

The d six generation has always done a good job at this.

他们做过很多不同类型的观众参与式角色扮演游戏。

They've done a lot of audience participation RPGs in various sorts.

我想你过去可能参与过其中一个。

I believe you've been involved with one in the past, maybe.

有可能。

It's possible.

是的。

Yeah.

总之。

Anyhow.

这可能已经淹没在时光的迷雾中了。

It may have been lost to the fog of time.

但我听的时候会发现，这些内容听起来比看下去更难。

But I listen to them, you know, and and it they're harder to listen to than than watch.

但我注意到一件事：当你做一档节目时，观众来看这个节目，他们需要满足其中一种需求。

But there's one thing I noticed is that when you're doing a show, if someone's coming to watch that show, there's they need one of two things.

他们要么需要能够参与，或者有很高的参与可能性，要么就需要被娱乐。

They either need to be participating or have a very good chance of participating, or they need to be entertained.

所以，你可以同时做到这两点。

And so you can do both.

比如，当我做我的游戏节目时，我会选择其中一种方式。

Like, when I do my game shows, I do one of the two.

这就像是一个游戏节目。

It's like a game show.

每个人都会拿到一张表格。

Everyone gets a sheet.

每个人都在填写答案。

Everyone's filling out the answers.

每个人都在参与。

Everyone's participating.

或者嗯。

Or Mhmm.

我们努力让我们的回答搞笑有趣，让大家笑起来，享受节目。

We're trying to be hilarious and funny with our answers and stuff so that everyone's laughing and just enjoying the show.

他们不在乎自己是否参与其中。

They don't care if they're part of it or not.

所以这有时很棘手，因为如果你从观众中邀请人上台参与节目，他们可能并不有趣。

And so that's tricky sometimes because if, again, if you bring up people from the audience to be part of the show, they may not be entertaining.

是的。

Yes.

尽管有那样一个角色，即使没有让所有观众都参与，只邀请几位参与者也能让观众感觉他们某种程度上参与了进来。

Although having that, avatar, even if they're not involving everyone in the audience, bringing up a few participants makes the audience feel like they're involved in in some way.

我认为，只要有一个好的主持人引导节目，让观众参与者短暂露个面，无论他们是否有趣，都不如让观众成员参与这一新鲜感重要。

I I think just having a nice guide, for the people running the show and make it a short appearance of of the audience participants, whether they're entertaining or not, doesn't matter quite as much as just the novelty of having an audience member involved.

是的。

Yeah.

而且，再次提醒，你需要始终牢记这个理念。

And, again, you need to just keep that that concept in mind.

关于游戏节目，当你制作这类节目时，你会看到有人离开房间，因为通常这些活动是免费的，他们不必非得留下。

So one thing about game shows when you're doing or doing these shows, and you can see people leave the room Because usually these things are free, so they don't have to be there.

我很久以前就学到的一点是，当你去游戏展会时，绝大多数人去那里是为了玩游戏。

And that's one thing I've learned a long time ago is that when you go to a gaming convention, the vast majority of people there are there to game.

即使我提供免费的钱，人们可能也不会来。

I could be offering free money, and people would probably not show up.

但我已经提过服装了，你知道，当我们为《Hot Streak》核算服装费用时，还需要一些道具之类的东西来让场面更盛大。

But I already mentioned costumes and, you know, when we we priced out the the outfits for Hot Streak, but there's props and things like that that you might need to make things bigger.

要想让场面更宏大，又不显得廉价，是非常困难的。

It's very difficult to make things bigger and not make them look cheap.

当然。

Sure.

是的。

Yeah.

但与此同时，也许这并不重要。

But at the same time, maybe that doesn't matter.

我的意思是，我们一开始聊过这个，那个新的冰壶项目，真的很棒。

I mean, I got this we talked about this at the beginning of the episode, this new, you know, curling thing, and it's awesome.

而且它看起来不廉价。

And it doesn't look cheap.

它看起来很棒，但价格也不便宜。

It looks great, but it also wasn't cheap.

明白吗？

Know?

我计划在我们的展会场地长期保留这个东西，至少十年。

This is something I plan to have for a decade at our convention site.

你知道的，我就是为此购买的。

You know, I purchased with that.

但如果你只是为一次性的演出做，比如我们需要给观众展示一张卡片，那就用硬纸板吧。

But if you're just doing it for a one time show, and I'm like, well, we need to show a card to the audience, and it's gonna be on poster board.

我没时间请艺术家，花400美元请他画这张图。

Well, I don't have time to hire an artist to, you know, pay him $400 to draw this picture.

我就直接让乔拿支记号笔，让他画出来就行。

I'm just gonna be like, give a give Joe a magic marker, and he's gonna draw it out.

你知道吗？

And you know what?

有时候，这种廉价和滑稽反而增添了乐趣。

Sometimes that cheapness and that silliness adds to the fun.

是的。

Yes.

这就是它的魅力。

That's the charm.

每个人都知道，制作一个巨大的东西很难。

Everybody knows that it's hard to make something giant.

除非你谈的是《价格猜对了》的预算，否则你不可能用一次性活动的薪水做出这么大的道具。

Unless you're talking like the Price Right budget, you're not gonna be able to make giant props on on this, on a a onetime event salary.

说到这个，我一直想知道，《价格猜对了》里的道具近距离看是不是挺廉价的？

Well, on that note, I've always wondered, like, are the Price Is Right things kinda cheap if you see them up close?

我敢肯定，电视上很多东西近距离看都很廉价。

I'm sure a lot of things on TV are cheap if you see them on up close.

不过，现在有了高清画质，这种情况没那么明显了。

Although, that's less the case now with HD.

你想要《价格猜对了》的转盘吗？

Do you want the price is right wheel?

我想要《价格猜对了》的转盘。

I want the price is right wheel.

哦。

Oh.

我一直都想要转一下那个转盘。

I've always I that's one of those things I've always wanted to spin.

我知道那个转盘非常重。

I I know the wheel is very heavy.

是的。

Yeah.

不过，这是他们在每期节目中都会用到的东西，对吧？

Though that's I mean, it's a thing that they use in every show.

对吧？

Right?

但确实如此。

But Yeah.

所以归根结底，我觉得这些东西很棒。

So at the end of the day, I think these things are great.

你得明白，它在你脑海中的印象可能比实际体验要好得多，因为游戏本来就是这样。

You have to realize it might be greater in your head than it actually turns out to be because that's just that's just how games work.

对吧？

Right?

你得明白，你是在玩一个游戏。

You have to you're you're taking a game.

我们没有ESPN Nuebe是有原因的。

There's a reason we don't have, know, ESPN Nuebe

那个老节目。

The old show.

人们观看桌游。

Where people are watching board games.

人们会在我们的频道上观看我们实时玩桌游，但这仍然不是最热门的内容，因为人们更想亲自玩桌游。

People watch us play board games live on our channel, but it still isn't the biggest thing because people want to play board games.

桌游本质上通常并不适合观看。

Board games by very nature aren't usually fun to watch.

当然也有例外，比如派对游戏和社交推理游戏。

There are exceptions, party games, social deduction games.

但即使如此，如果有一群人在观看——我的意思是，如果你去展会，你会看到很多跑团游戏之类的东西，有些人喜欢看，因为他们几乎是在看一场戏剧或故事。

But even that, if there's a crowd watching I mean, if you go to convention, you'll see there's a lot of RPGs and stuff, and some people love watching it because they're they're watching a play almost, a story.

但当你去Gen Con时，并没有很多人来看别人玩这个游戏。

But when you go to Gen Con, there's not a lot of come watch people play this game.

即使我们直播桌游世界大赛，观看量也远不如我们直接播放四个有趣的人玩Balderdash的视频。

Even when we broadcast the World Series of board gaming stuff, it doesn't get as many views as if we just said, here's four funny people playing Balderdash.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

它需要有比单纯观看人们玩普通游戏更广泛的吸引力。

It needs to have a little bit more appeal a wider appeal than just watching people play the game normally.

这并不意味着我会停止尝试寻找实现的方法，因为总有一些有趣的事情可以做。

And it doesn't mean I'm gonna stop trying to figure out ways to do it because there's always fun things to do.

我非常热衷于吸引观众参与这类活动，一起开心地玩游戏。

I am I'm a big fan of getting an audience into something like that and having fun playing games together.

所以尽管去做吧。

So go for it.

只是，你知道的，做好准备。

Just, you know, be prepared.

你永远不知道会发生什么。

You never know what's gonna happen.

问题。

Questions.

问题。

Questions.

问题。

Questions.

好了，各位。

Alright, folks.

今天，我们来混合一下内容。

Today, have a mix of a thing.

这封来信原本像是一个恐怖故事，但其实也像是一个问题。

It was sent in sort of as a tale of horror, but it's sort of also a question.

是的。

Yes.

所以这是来自里克的，里克说，他和妻子每周都会和她的朋友们一起玩桌游。

So this is from Rick, and Rick says, my wife and I have a weekly game night with her friends.

他说这可能更像是一种爱好，但他的妻子也非常喜欢玩游戏，而且玩得非常好。

He's he says probably deeper in a hobby, but his wife also loves playing games, and she's also very good.

而大多数情况下，都是她把他打败了。

And more often than not, she whoops him.

我想这基本上就是他在这里说的意思。

I think that and that's pretty much what he said here.

他不是这么说的，但对。

That's not the way he phrased it, but yeah.

好的。

Okay.

是的。

Yeah.

他说，最近我出去旅行时，他想和她玩几局游戏，于是他们开始使用Board Game Arena，这是一个可以在线玩游戏的绝佳平台。

He said when I went on a recent trip, he wanted to play a few games with her, and they started using board game arena, a place you can play games online, a very good place to play games online.

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

能够分开时依然共享这项活动，感觉真好。

It was nice to be able to share that activity when apart.

我回来后，我们继续保持每晚玩游戏的习惯。

We kept playing nightly when I returned.

然而，与现实生活中不同，在Board Game Arena上，总是我赢，现在她不太愿意和我玩了。

However, unlike in real life in Board Game Arena, I kept being the one to win the game, and now she is becoming unwilling to play me on Board Game Arena.

她当然还是会玩，但心里有点不爽。

She still will, of course, but there's a little chip in her shoulder.

他说，我不知道他是不是过度解读了这件事。

I don't know that maybe he's reading into this, he said.

我要这么说。

I will say this.

你必须仔细看看这位写信人的偏见。

You have to def look at the the bias of of the letter writer here.

是的。

Yeah.

顺便说一句，我觉得这太好笑了。

On a side note, I think it's hilarious.

Board Game Arena 真是太棒了。

Board Game Arena is fantastic.

如果你们还没用过，我强烈推荐，它每天都变得更好。

I very much if you haven't used it, folks, it just gets better every day.

他们一直在持续添加新游戏。

They they are consistently adding new games to it.

这些游戏都是完全授权的。

These are all fully licensed games.

你可以选择免费账户或付费账户，但我认为如果你是付费账户，就可以和使用免费账户的人一起玩游戏。

If you can have a free account or a paid account, but I believe if you have a paid account, you can play a game with people who have a free account.

我觉得应该是这样的。

I think that's how it works.

如果你有高级账户，可以创建任何游戏；如果你有免费账户，可以加入任何游戏。

You can start any game if you have the premium account, but you can join any game if you have the free account.

是的。

Yeah.

所以上面有很多有趣的游戏，而且玩起来也很流畅。

So it's really there's a lot of neat games on there, and it and it plays well.

如果我遇到一个人，我会说，嘿。

And but if I meet someone and I say, hey.

你想玩这个游戏吗？

Do you wanna play this game?

他们说：天哪。

And they're like, oh my word.

我在棋盘游戏竞技场上玩过这个几百次了。

I've played that hundreds of times in Board Game Arena.

我说，我们在玩另一个游戏。

I go, we're playing a different game.

是的。

Yeah.

因为我们都知道，他们会把我绕得团团转。

We're Because I know that they are just gonna run circles around me.

我们以前提到过这一点，我觉得杰夫·恩格尔斯坦曾经做过一个小片段，讲的是人们以为自己玩的游戏比实际多。

We've mentioned this in the past, and I think Jeff Engelstein did a little vignette on it one time about people think they play games more than they do.

所以如果埃里克说，我去年玩了这个游戏50次，实际上可能只有六次。

So if Eric says, I played, you know, this game 50 times last year, it might be six.

这可不是开玩笑。

And that's not a joke.

人们玩棋盘游戏的次数远比他们自己以为的要少。

People play games a lot less than they think they do.

是的。

Yeah.

不过在棋盘游戏竞技场上，你可以玩很多局游戏。

On board game arena, though, you can play games a ton.

这非常容易。

It's very easy.

你玩完一局，就可以立刻开始下一局。

You play you start the next game.

你玩完一局，就可以立刻开始下一局。

You play start the next game.

你一个晚上可以玩四局《Ark Nova》。

You can play four games in a night of Ark Nova.

你可以。

You can.

是的。

Yeah.

而且因为所有维护工作都已自动处理，游戏节奏更快了。

And it moves faster because every all the upkeep is taken care of.

只要每个人都按时行动，你就能比现实中快得多地完成这些游戏。

And as long as everybody's taking their turns, you can churn through these games a lot faster than you can physically.

不过，你有没有觉得，当人们可以移动棋盘、在电子屏幕上查看信息或在回合间暂停时，有些人会天然更擅长这种玩法？

Do you feel, though, like there's a different set of skills that some people might just naturally be better when they can move the board around and see stuff electronically or pause between turns?

所以，是的，我确实这么认为。

So, yeah, I I think so for sure.

这正好涉及到里克的问题。

And that's getting down to Rick's question here.

我认为，当你在屏幕上玩一个游戏，而不是看到整个棋盘时，你的感知方式是不同的。

I I think there is a different different perception that you have when you're looking at a game on a screen versus seeing the entire board.

如果棋盘是实体的，就更容易关注其他玩家回合中发生的事情。

It's much easier to pay attention to what is happening on other people's turns if it's physically there.

你看到他们伸手越过桌子。

You see them reaching across the table.

你看到他们打出一张牌。

You see them playing a card.

他们说：我出这张牌。

They say something like, I'm playing this.

我做这个，然后你能立刻看到所有结果。

I'm doing this, And you can immediately see all the results of that.

当你在桌游竞技场玩时，他们一动，事情就迅速发生，然后叮的一声，轮到你了。

When you're playing on board game arena, they make a move and stuff happens real fast, and then ding, it's your turn.

现在就变成了：好吧。

And now it's like, okay.

我该轮到我了，但我并不一定跟得上刚才发生了什么。

I now need to take my turn, but I don't necessarily follow what just happened there.

如果你玩的是回合制游戏——这正是我在桌游竞技场上玩很多游戏的方式——我一上线，就轮到我了。

And if you're playing turn based, which is how I play many of my games on board game arena, I show up and it's my turn.

现在我必须回看日志，追踪每个人做了什么，才能大致了解他们的行动，但要掌握整个游戏状态的变化就困难多了。

And now I have to go back through the log and follow what people did so I have some idea of what they're doing, but it's a lot harder to keep track of what is happening in the entire game state.

因此我会错过一些事情，比如汤姆快要完成一个目标了，我根本没意识到这件事正在发生，本来我可以阻止他，但我当时没在board的另一边关注这些。

And so I will miss things like, oh, Tom is about to score one of the objectives, and I didn't realize that that that was happening, and I could have stopped him, but I wasn't really thinking about that on the other side of the board.

而如果我们面对面玩，我就看到他伸手去够board的另一边。

Whereas if we were playing in person, I saw him reach over to that side of the board.

我看到他狡黠地把那块棋子摆到能得分的位置，于是我知道我得阻止他了。

I saw the look in his eye as he slyly put that piece in position to to score the objective, and now I know I need to stop him.

但你看，这里我就和你看法不同了，我觉得电子方式反而更清晰。

But see, this is kind of where I I flip with you here, and I I I can see electronically better.

昨晚我玩了一局游戏，当时我想：好吧，我就拿这张牌吧。

I was playing a game last night, and I was like, I guess I'll take this card.

我一看，发现有人已经在那张牌上放了三个方块。

And when looked over, and someone had three cubes on the card.

我当时就想：等等。

And I was like, wait.

什么？

What?

我以为我会赢那一局。

I I I thought I thought I was gonna win that.

等等。

Wait.

那是什么时候发生的？

When did that happen?

但在游戏中，它会很快告诉我我控制和未控制的区域。

But in a in on the game, it will show me very quickly what I control and don't control.

所以有时候反而更容易。

So sometimes it's easier.

我能做什么动作？

What actions can I do?

这些动作你根本不能做，因为它们是灰色的。

You can't even do these actions because they're grayed out.

因此它能让你更专注一些。

And so it lets you focus a little better.

你不必那么费力地学习游戏。

You don't have to learn the game as hard.

你只需直接玩这个游戏。

You can just play the game.

所以我觉得这是不同的风格。

So I think it's I think it's different styles.

是的。

Yeah.

我同意。

I agree.

而且，玩在线游戏也有助于你学习所有规则或强制执行所有规则，而且你很难犯错。

And, you know, playing online also helps you learn all the rules or enforce all of the rules, and it's, you know, it's much harder to make mistakes.

事实上，如果你在棋盘游戏竞技场上面跟着玩，你是做不到的。

In fact, you can't, if you're following along on board game arena.

我发现自己过去几次玩《银河巡航》时都玩错了。

I found out I was playing Galactic Cruise wrong for the past couple times I had played.

我在为我的巡航船支付食物费用时，把其中一个成本算错了。

I just had one of the costs incorrect as I was paying for food for my cruise.

我忘了给飞行员付钱，但当我玩《棋盘游戏竞技场》时

I forgot to pay for the pilot, but when I'm playing on Board Game Arena

别为埃里克工作。

Don't work for Eric.

是的，没错。

It it yeah.

Exactly.

Exactly.

我没有给我的飞行员提供餐食。

I I didn't have a a meal for my pilot.

但当我玩VGA时，系统强制执行了这条规则，我这才意识到：糟了。

But when I'm playing on VGA, it enforced that rule, and I went, uh-oh.

好的。

Okay.

所以我需要，你知道的，多收集一些食物，才能让他们去冒险。

So I needed to, you know, collect some more food before I could send them on an adventure.

这些就是你慢慢学到的东西。

These are the things you you learn.

我不确定我们能不能真正弄清楚为什么里克的妻子在现实中玩和在BGA上玩不一样，但确实有区别。

I don't I don't know if we can really get to the bottom of why Rick's wife is playing differently in person versus BGA, but there's definitely a difference.

我们会

We'll

每种来一个

do one of each

这就是接待处。

and that's reception.

这是我的建议。

This is my recommendation.

玩一局BGA，然后再玩一局现实中的。

Play one BGA and then play one in real life.

是的。

Yeah.

就是这样。

There you go.

或者输的人来决定下一局的玩法。

Or whoever loses the game gets to choose the format of the next one.

哦，埃里克真聪明。

Oh, Eric is wise.

谢谢，所罗门。

Thanks, Solomon.

人们说每朵玫瑰都有刺，但不是每朵玫瑰都有呼啦圈。

They say that every rose has its thorn, but not every rose has a hula hoop.

好了。

Alright.

我们来聊聊一些游戏吧。

Let's talk some games.

好的。

Alright.

我今天每样都放了一个，Eric。

I put I put one of each today, Eric.

哦，我这里也每样都有一个。

Oh, I also have one of each.

一个呼啦圈，一朵玫瑰，和一根刺。

A hula hoop, a rose, and a thorn.

我先从刺开始。

I'll start with the thorn.

先把不好的事情解决掉。

Let's get the bad one out of the way.

这个游戏叫《银河纪元》。

So this is a game called Age of Galaxy.

好的。

Okay.

《Age of Galaxy》最初于2022年发布，但就在去年，由Portal Games重新发行。

Age of Galaxy originally came out in 2022, but just last year was re released by Portal Games.

设计师是Jeffrey CCH，我对他的作品评价不一。

The designer is Jeffrey CCH, and I have mixed feelings with his stuff.

我非常喜欢他设计的《TerrorScape》。

I love TerrorScape, which he did.

我也喜欢他设计的《Ella and Something Shiny》。

And I like Ella and something shiny also from him.

风格差异很大的游戏。

Very varied games.

这些游戏差别非常大，我还玩过他的其他作品，每一款都截然不同。

Those are very different games, and I've played others of of his, and they are all all very different.

是的。

Yes.

他绝对是符拉迪沃斯托克类型的设计师。

He's definitely a Vladivostok type designer.

不过，这款游戏完全没打动我。

This game didn't do it for me at all, though.

在这款游戏中，你扮演一个星系，需要完成各种不同的任务。

In this game, you are a galaxy, and you have to do a bunch of various things.

在整个游戏中，你会获得七张卡牌。

You get seven cards over the course of this game.

抱歉啊。

Well, I'm sorry.

游戏开始时，你会抽到七张手牌。

You draw a hand of seven cards at the beginning.

你需要从这些卡牌中选择一张作为你的特殊能力。

You will pick one of those cards to be your special power.

这些卡牌可以以多种不同方式使用。

Cards can be used in many different ways.

它们可以作为资源使用。

They can be used as resources.

它们可以作为特殊能力使用。

They can be used as a special power.

其中三张会成为你的特殊能力。

Three of them will become your special powers.

整个游戏就是这样。

That's it for the whole game.

而且过程中有很多来回互动，规则也相当繁琐。

And there's a lot of back and forth, and there is a lot of rules overhead.

不知为什么，伊格纳西奥觉得，尽管这些符号本身并不直观（再次强调，我们真希望每个人都能共享一张参考卡）。

And for some reason, Ignacio thought that with all these symbols, which by the way are not particularly intuitive, once again, we would love it if we could all share a single reference card.

我玩任何游戏时都会提出这个建议。

I will always ping that on a game.

我还是觉得迟早会有出版商来找我。

I still someone is gonna have publishers have to come to me.

我公开挑战你。

I challenge you publicly.

我呼吁宇宙中所有出版商告诉我，为什么你们只在游戏里放一张参考卡，而且。

I call it every publisher in the universe to tell me why you only put one reference card in a game and Yeah.

不为每位玩家提供一张参考卡，这对你们公司造成了多大的伤害。

How it hurts your company to not have one for each player.

即使你觉得游戏中的所有内容都非常简单，也该为每位玩家提供一张参考卡。

Even if you think everything in a game is very simple, you have a reference card for everyone in the game.

抱歉。

Sorry.

这是百分之百的，我绝不会在这个规则上让步。

It is a 100 per I I will never waver on this rule.

抱歉。

Sorry.

我讨厌这样。

I hate it

太多了。

so much.

不。

No.

我明白了。

I get it.

但再说一遍，这很不符合直觉。

But, again, it's unintuitive.

整个游戏都感觉不符合直觉。

The whole game feels unintuitive.

游戏中有一种攻击机制。

There's sort of attacking in the game.

游戏中有一种收集资源的机制。

There's sort of collecting resources.

有时在你揭示事物并攻击时，运气成分还挺大的。

There's a decent amount of luck sometimes when you reveal things and attack them.