与The Dice Tower同桌 - 角色点名

我不确定这是年代感使然，还是它更倾向于角色扮演的本源而非桌游本源。

I don't know necessarily if it's showing its age as much as it is leaning into the role playing roots as opposed to the board game roots.

不过这正是我想说的。

But that's what I'm saying, though.

我不认为它在角色扮演方面有引领性，缺乏大量故事性内容。

I don't know that it leads in the the role playing, and there's lot, like, story, and that's not there.

更像是那种掷骰子看结果的类型。

It's more of a just roll dice and see what happens type thing.

这很公平。

That's fair.

Eric，你把法师骑士放在这里了。

Eric, you put mage knight on here.

这个有点那种感觉。

This one's kind of that way.

这个更偏向欧式策略游戏。

This one's more towards a euro game than not.

它有牌库构筑的元素。

It has elements of deck building.

当然。

Sure.

我更多是从确定性战斗的角度考虑。

I'm thinking more of it as the deterministic combat.

比如，你知道自己对某个目标会有特定的攻击数值。

You, like, you know you're gonna have a certain attack stat against something.

在《法师骑士》桌游里有很多数字飞来飞去，这就是我把它归入这个类别的原因。

There are a lot of numbers flying around in Mage Knight, the board game, and that's that's why I put it in this category.

确实有很多游戏，它们总是试图设计新的战斗系统，因为大多数时候你只是掷骰子看是否命中。

There's definitely a lot of games that you know, they're always trying to do a new combat system because, you know, most time, you roll a die, and you see if you hit or not.

非成即败。

It's succeed or fail.

而游戏总是试图绕过这种机制。

And games try to get around that.

《幽港迷城》采用了抽卡机制并将其融入确定性战斗系统。

Gloomhaven did the draw a card and add it to deterministic combat.

所以它基本上是确定性的，但又不完全是。

So it was mostly deterministic, but not quite.

嗯。

Mhmm.

带有修正值。

With modifiers.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

而且就像我说的，目前可能有15款游戏试图成为下一个《幽港迷城》，因为它真正将这个类型转变成了更注重策略的游戏。

And, again, gloom like I said, gloom haven kind of there's probably 15 games out there that are trying to be the next gloom haven right now, because it it really changed the genre into a more thinky thing.

没有人像《幽港迷城》那样破门而入并观察后续发展。

No one is Gloomhaven has not kicked the door down and see what happens.

在《幽港迷城》中，当你进入一个场景时，这几乎就像解谜。

Gloomhaven, when you go into a scenario, you need it's almost a puzzle.

战斗变成了谜题，而非疯狂混乱的事件。

Combat becomes a puzzle rather than a frenzied, somewhat chaotic event.

没错。

Yeah.

正确。

Correct.

假设你的主要吸引力在于你想从一张白纸开始。

So let's say your big draw is that you wanna start with a blank slate.

你想创造一个角色，并将其塑造成你心目中的完美战士。

You wanna create a character and mold them into your perfect warrior.

哪些游戏真正体现了这一理念？

What games what games really embrace that concept?

你把起源故事写在这里了吗？

Did did you put origin story on here?

我没写那个。

I didn't put that on here.

我写了。

I did.

我放的是这款来自Stonemire的新式技巧游戏，随着多轮推进你会获得更多能力。

I put so this is the new one trick taker from, Stonemire where you get more abilities as you go through the multiple rounds.

所以你是在打造一个超级英雄角色。

So you're sort of crafting a superhero character.

没错。

Yeah.

是的，它更偏向边缘类型。

It's, yeah, it's farther on the fringes.

这不会被归类为角色扮演类游戏，但你在塑造角色并赋予其酷炫的超能力。

This isn't wouldn't be considered a role playing style game, but you are crafting your character and turning them into a superhero with cool abilities.

这就是我把它列入名单的原因，天哪。

That's why I put it on the list by golly.

但我也加入了《上古卷轴》和《太多骨头》这类筹码理论游戏，它们让你用骰子构建角色，比如通过添加更多骰子来强化特定能力或增加新类型的骰子。

But I also put Elder Scrolls and Too Many Bones, the the chip theory games that have you, like, crafting your character with dice and, you know, you you add more dice to make a particular ability stronger or adding a new type of die.

这感觉非常像角色构建创作，更接近传统RPG的风格。

That feels very much character building creation that's a little closer to a traditional RPG.

是的。

Yes.

没错。

Yeah.

我最近刚和儿子玩了《英雄任务》，但他不喜欢，他说想玩一个没有运气成分的游戏。

I recently just played HeroQuest with my son, who did not like it because he wanted to play a game with no luck, he said.

我都不知道我在培养什么样的孩子。

I don't know who I'm raising.

我本来打算

I I was gonna

问，那这些游戏里有适合他的吗？

say, are any of these games gonna work for him then?

对。

Yeah.

这些游戏都有随机元素，我觉得没一个符合他的要求。

None of these games I think all of these have some sort of random element.

可以试试抽象策略类游戏和他一起玩。

Of abstract strategy games and playing them with him.

不过话说回来，我注意到《英雄任务》里不同角色之间的差异在很多方面其实非常小。

But, anyway but I noticed in HeroQuest, the difference between the different characters is very minimal in many ways.

巫师会一些法术，每个人掷骰子并加上一些数值。

The wizard has some spells, everyone rolls a die and adds something.

随着游戏进展，差异变得越来越大，就像《Too Many Bones》那样，天哪。

And as as games have progressed, the differences have become more like Too Many Bones is like, holy cow.

那些角色彼此之间毫无相似之处。

Those characters are nothing like each other.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我喜欢这样。

And I like that.

是啊。

Yeah.

我觉得，《Artisans of Splendid Veil》是我列入这个清单的游戏之一。

I think, Artisans of Splendid Veil is one I put on this list.

同样的道理。

Same deal.

每个不同的角色类型发展方式都完全不同。

Like, each of the different character types develop totally differently.

它们都有各自的进度表，但运作方式截然不同。

They have different, they all have sort of, like, progression charts, but they operate totally differently.

一个是思维导图式的，另一个是线性发展，还有的只是收集物品进行制作——提到朱莉的制作概念——收集物品然后转化为新东西，从而推动角色成长。

One's like a a mind map, and others is a is a, like, a linear progression, and others just collect stuff and crafts, mentioning Julie's, concept of crafting, collects items and then turns them into new things, which then that advances the character.

嗯。

Mhmm.

角色之间的这种差异性非常棒，让你感觉是在塑造一个真实的人，而不只是一堆电子表格里的数字。

And having that sort of differentiation in characters is really cool as you you feel like you're actually developing a person and not just a bunch of spreadsheet numbers.

所以你没有把这个列为一个类别，我觉得它有点像分支，但总体来说就是故事推进

So you didn't put this down as a category, and I feel like it's a bit of an offshoot of this, but just in in general, storytelling progression

嗯。

Mhmm.

不过类似思路的还有Brotherwise那些游戏，特别是《Call to Adventure》，确实。

Would be on the same kind of thought, though, is things like like all the Brotherwise games, but Call to Adventure specifically, where Yes.

它有更强的叙事推进感。

There is more of a narrative progression.

当时我在看这个的时候就觉得缺了点什么，就是

It was one that I was like so when you were going through this, I was like, there's something missing here, and that's

对。

Yeah.

是叙事性。

It's the storytelling.

是故事本身。

The story.

还有像《天方夜谭》或是Ryan Lockett那些以叙事为主的游戏，机制较少而更像你说的'选择你自己的冒险'。

And even the, tales of the Arabian knights or the, Ryan Lockett games that are very narrative based and and less mechanic and more choose your own adventure, like you said.

嗯。

Mhmm.

虽然我不会具体提我参与过的那些游戏，但确实有很多都属于这个类别。

And I'm not gonna mention any of the number of games I've worked on, but there are many that fall into that category.

是的。

Yeah.

有很多游戏采用这种角色成长机制，有时会让你一开始就拥有一个完整成型的角色，然后可以选择不同的发展路径。

There's a lot of of games with this character progression, and they sometimes they let you start you know, you kinda start with a fully fleshed character, and then you can go divergent paths.

但通常由于是桌游，必须遵循规则，某种程度上还是会把玩家限制在框架内。

But often, they still because it's a board game, because it has to follow rules, they usually still put you in a box in a sense.

这就是你能做的。

This is what you can do.

这些是你能获得的东西。

These are the things that you can get.

但在角色扮演游戏中，地下城主可以允许你做出完全出格的举动——只要剧情需要。

But in a role playing game, the dungeon master can allow you to do something wildly off kilter if if so desired.

对吧。

Right.

比如你可能被狼人咬伤，突然就获得了狼人能力。

Know, you might get bitten by a werewolf, and suddenly you now have werewolf powers.

而桌游很难融入这种受控的混沌机制

And a board game has a harder time incorporating that sort of controlled chaos

这种变故确实会带来困扰，你懂吧？

into the affliction did it, but you know?

没错。

Yeah.

我的意思是，如果要允许这种情况发生，就必须作为规则的衍生机制，这会让游戏变得更加复杂。

Well, I mean, if you do allow for something like that, it has to be like an offshoot of rules, which just makes the game that much more complex.

对。

Right.

最后还有个附录之类的部分。

And there's like an appendix at the end.

如果你被狼人咬了，以下是现在适用于你的新规则体系。

If you've been bitten by a werewolf, here are the new rule systems you now operate under.

但即便你被狼人咬了，确实有...

But even but if you're bitten by a werewolf, there's yes.

他们可能为此预留了空间，但不是现在——我被狼人咬了变成狼人后，就准备去和那边的村民交朋友，然后我们会展开一段古怪的搭档冒险。

They're they've maybe made allotment for that, but not now that I've been bitten by a werewolf and I've become a werewolf, I'm going to go make friends with that villager over there, and we're going to have a wacky, buddy cop adventure.

就像，你不能...你不能那么做。

Like, you can't you can't do that.

还是有规则约束的。

There's still rules.

说到角色创建，这就涉及到战役玩法了。

With character creation, that brings us into kind of a campaign thing.

大多数角色扮演游戏都是战役模式。

So most role playing games are campaigns.

也有单次冒险，但通常是展会特供之类的。

There's one shots, but those are often, say, for conventions or other things.

大多数团队不会每周聚在一起玩单次冒险。

Most groups don't get together and do a one shot every week.

说实话，能加入这样的团体应该会很有趣。

In fact, that would be an interesting group to be part of, I guess.

这就是我们小组现在正在做的事情。

That's what my group is doing right now.

哦，就一个接一个地来吗？

Oh, just one shot after one shot?

不是相同的角色吗？

It's not the same characters?

嗯，

Well,

是相同的角色。

it's the same characters.

好吧。

Okay.

我们是一个雇佣兵公会。

We are a we are a mercenary guild.

嗯，当然。

Well, sure.

但我的意思是，你们可能是在遵循一个广义的战役故事线，而不是这周我们要做雇佣兵主题。

But I'm saying you're probably following this as as a generalized campaign storyline as opposed to this week, we're gonna do mercenaries.

这周我们要做太空主题。

This week, we're gonna do in space.

这周我们要做牛仔主题。

This week, we're doing cowboys.

嗯，是的。

Well yeah.

不。

No.

我们都生活在同一个世界，同一座城市，但在公会里可以扮演不同的角色。

We're all in the same world, in the same city, but and we can play different characters in the guild.

啊。

Ah.

而且还有任务。

And there's a job.

所以我们去做任务，那个任务是一次性的。

So we go do a job, and that job is a one shot.

嗯，我还是觉得可能是我错了。

Well, I still think that's maybe I'm wrong.

好吧，我认为那更像是少数派。

Well, I think that's more in the minority.

很多人喜欢玩战役模式。

A lot of people like to play the campaign.

但战役模式直到英雄任务（HeroQuest）出现才真正进入桌游领域，它算是有了某种战役形式。

But campaigns didn't enter board gaming until, I mean, HeroQuest had a campaign of sorts.

但之后，就基本销声匿迹了。

But after that, it was kind of crickets.

然后是《深入绝地：黑暗之旅》，对。

And then descent, journeys in the dark Yeah.

第二版增加了一个扩展包，那是个两百小时的战役。

Second edition added an expansion, which was a two hundred hour campaign.

这次扩展。

The expansion.

没错。

Yep.

我当时心想，哦不。

And I was like oh, no.

我很抱歉。

I'm sorry.

第一次登顶就那样做了。

The first ascent did that.

第一次登顶就有扩展内容。

The first ascent had expansion.

当时正在建造第二个。

It was building the the second one.

但第一个就增加了扩展内容，这让我震惊不已。

But the first one added an expansion, and it blew my mind.

我说，这太棒了。

I said, this is amazing.

我太喜欢这个了。

I love this.

真希望更多游戏能这样做。

I wish more games did this.

我想收回那句话。

I would like to retract that statement.

他们都希望更多

They all I wish more

游戏做到了这一点。

games did this.

嗯，因为我

Well, because I

确实喜欢那种偶尔能直接玩一局单次游戏的感觉，如今很少有地牢探索类桌游还保留这种玩法。

did like the fact of being able to sometimes just play a one shot, and very few dungeon crawl games these days allow that in board gaming.

是啊。

Yeah.

大多数系统里甚至已经没这个功能了。

Most It's not even in the system anymore.

没错。

Yeah.

多数都做成战役模式了。

Most do a campaign.

比如我提到的玛德拉，就有很长的战役和宏大剧情。

Like, I put on here, Madara has a very long campaign and big story.

是的。

Yes.

确实如此。

It does.

对啊。

Yeah.

而且角色非常独特，可以这么说。

And very unique characters, sort of.

他们非常符合动漫套路。

They're very anime trope.

但他们是，我是说，他们彼此之间很独特。

But they're, I mean, they're unique from each other.

但有时候我就是想打架。

But sometimes I just want to fight.

所以有时候

So sometimes

你只想拿起象征性的剑砍点什么。

you just wanna pick up the metaphoric sword and hit something.

是的。

Yes.

有些游戏允许你这么做。

There are some games that let you do that.

对啊。

Yeah.

所以他们在这里涵盖了各种类型。

So they they run the gamut here.

我是说，我差点把僵尸题材也列进去了。

I mean, I almost put zombie side on the list.

对吧？

Right?

因为差不多就是那样。

Because that's kind of like that.

你们在玩一个单次冒险剧本，对吧。

You're playing a one shot Yeah.

僵尸题材的角色扮演游戏，这类僵尸游戏其实有很多。

RPG against zombies, and there's a lot of zombie games that fall into that genre.

有完整战役模式的僵尸游戏非常少。

There's very few zombie games that are campaign.

有些游戏只让你战斗。

Some, they just let you fight.

龙与地下城桌游系列，《鸦阁城堡》、《碎晶之怒》，到现在大概有十款不同的作品。

The D and D board game series, Castle Ravenloft, wrath of a shardland, there's, I think, 10 different ones at this point.

你们俩玩过吗？

Have either of you played them?

那是很久以前了。

It was a long time ago.

我玩过其中一款。

I played one of them.

最早期的其中一款吗？

One of the first ones?

对。

Yeah.

所以那算是——我完全没有贬义——一个简化版本，用'简化版'这个词可能更准确。

So that was, like, a very I don't mean this in a negative way at all, but a dumbed down version, but a simplified is probably a better word.

《龙与地下城》的简化版，你可以通过某些方式升级一次。

Simplified version of Dungeons and Dragons, you could level up once over the course of something.

虽然它原本不是战役模式，但令人惊讶的是他们后来添加了可玩的战役模块。

And it wasn't a campaign, although shockingly, they've since added a campaign module that you can play with it.

《阿卡迪亚任务》在这方面几乎是王者。

Arcadia Quest is almost the king of this.

虽然是个五级战役，但玩起来像一次性游戏。

It is a five level campaign, if so, but it feels like a one off.

你直接进入游戏。

You just get in there.

里面有怪物。

You have monsters.

设计师埃里克·朗格称它们为行走的战利品袋。

Eric Lange, the designer, called them walking bags of loot.

你本不是去战斗的，结果却开始互相厮杀。

You weren't in there to fight, and then you're fighting each other.

是啊。

Yeah.

有道理。

Fair enough.

对。

Yeah.

不。

No.

这类游戏多到数不清，基本上就是像你说的那样，只保留了RPG中地下城探索的部分，专注于战斗。

There's tons tons and tons of these, which is, you know, taking almost, like you said, the the dungeon crawler aspect of RPGs and just doing the combat.

这非常令人满足，因为策略性——不是战术上的，而是触感上的——掷骰子本身就是件很愉悦的事。

And it's a very satisfying because tactic tactic not tactically, but tactilely, rolling dice is a very satisfying thing.

所以它保留了这部分玩法，让你能享受掷骰子的乐趣，看数字是否如你所愿那样累加起来。

So it's taking that part of it and just getting to do the rolling the dice and seeing if the numbers add up to, you know, type of thing

对。

Right.

这种物理触感很让人满足。

Which is physically satisfying.

当你真正成功时感觉棒极了。

It's it's great when you actually pull it off.

确实。

Sure.

游戏中有大量随机元素，所以很多机制都要考虑如何用卡牌来抵消掷骰子带来的不确定性。

There's a lot of randomization, so a lot of them have to do deal with the whole mitigation of do I have cards to offset this dice rolling piece of it?

没错，这些游戏是我最喜欢的类型之一，当然还有很多其他佳作。

But, yes, that's this is these games are some of my favorites, but also so many others.

比如那个叫什么来着？

Like, what is it?

《流浪者：藤壶湾邪教》就是我的最爱之一。

Wander, Cult of Barnacle Bay, is one of my favorites.

对。

Right.

它给人一种相似的感觉。

It has a similar feel to it.

我最喜欢的是《无尽黑暗》第二版。

My favorite is massive darkness, the second edition.

有时候就是随便掷掷骰子。

Just like chucking dice sometimes.

有时候你就是想要这种体验。

That's sometimes just what you're in the mood for.

虽然你知道可能是翻牌之类的机制，但有时候我就想打打小怪然后赢。

It doesn't mean even though you know, it could be flipping cards or whatever, but I just wanna sometimes fight some baddies and win.

还有剧情 是啊。

And story Yeah.

呃。

Meh.

或者输掉，但要输得轰轰烈烈。

Or lose, but lose epically.

对。

Right.

嗯，那些打BOSS的游戏 是啊。

Well, the the boss battlers Yeah.

我们之前提到的那些也属于这类。

That that we were mentioning as well also fall into this.

那个基于电子游戏的叫什么来着？

What was the one based on the video game?

《怪物猎人》有一个桌面版本，就是直接把你扔进场景，告诉你：这就是怪物。

Monster Hunter has a, a a tabletop version where you just get thrown into, here's the monster.

大家要设法周旋，基本上就是解谜如何击败这个坏家伙。

Everybody try and maneuver around it and figure out basically the puzzle of how do we defeat this baddie Yeah.

不太注重故事情节或探索元素。

Without a whole lot of emphasis on storytelling or exploration.

对。

Yeah.

汤姆，我想是你把搞笑类别加到我们清单里的。

Tom, I think you added the silly category to our list.

有时候，角色扮演玩家就是想胡闹一下。

Sometimes, role players just wanna get goofy.

根据我小儿子的冒险经历——青年冒险者协会的冒险，我觉得这完全正确。

Based on my youngest's adventures, Young Adventurers Guild, adventures, I think that's absolutely true.

当然也有很多游戏允许你这样做。

And there are certainly plenty of games that let you do that.

我想到一个游戏，清单上应该有，《地牢战士》，需要你把骰子扔到目标上，有时候还得从腿下扔。

I'm thinking of the one, I think have you it on the list, Dungeon Fighter, that has you, like, tossing dice onto a target, like, sometimes under your leg

没错。

Yeah.

试着

Try and

得分。

score points.

开始。

Starts.

我曾与别人手牵手，跳起来转身，把骰子掷向目标。

I have held hands with someone else, jumped up, and turned around, and threw the dice onto the target.

哦，哇。

Oh, wow.

是啊。

Yeah.

这真的就是一堆傻里傻气的东西。

It really it's really just kind of a bunch of silliness.

但我把地牢任务放进来，因为我知道有些人并不觉得它傻，可我觉得傻。

But I I put dungeon quests on here because I know that some people don't consider it silly, but I I do.

这是个你只需穿过地牢看看能找到什么的游戏，而且你只有16%的几率存活。

This was a game which you just went through a dungeon to see what you could find, and you had a 16% chance of surviving the game.

嗯。

Yeah.

不错。

Nice.

是啊。

Yeah.

挺有意思的。

That's fun.

比如，你要翻开一张牌。

Like, you would turn over a card.

就像是掷骰子一样。

It'd be like, roll a die.

一到三。

One to three.

你死了。

You're dead.

是啊。

Yeah.

酷。

Cool.

我一点都不喜欢，但我看到人们玩的是更现代的版本。

I don't like it at all, but I I see people do the more modern version.

我玩过《逃离黑暗城堡》，就是随机翻牌，然后掷骰子看会发生什么。

I have the escape the dark castle where you're just flipping over cards randomly, and then you roll dice and see what happens with them.

整个《Munchkin》系列都是基于这个的。

And then the whole Munchkin genre is based on this.

《Munchkin》确实是基于这个的。

Munchkin was based on That's true.

DND里发生的那些蠢事。

The silly things that happen in D and D.

有个桌游版本叫《Munchkin Quest》，依然保留了那种胡闹风格并增加了更多规则。

There's a a board game version, Munchkin Quest, which still has that silliness and put more rules.

但如果你喜欢这类东西，我不会...我不会对此指手画脚。

But if you like that sort of thing, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna, you know, get down on this.

如果你有孩子，可以试试《科拉的任务》，它也有这个功能。

And if you have kids, you could do Cora's Quest, which also does that.

是的。

Yes.

《科拉的任务》完全就是这样。

Cora Quest is very much this.

你听说他们要推出新版《小白》了吗？就像重启版那种？

Had you hear they're coming out with a new there's, like, a reboot of Munchkin?

他们要用一套新规则重新开始。

They're starting over with a new rule set.

有意思。

Interesting.

听起来像是营销手段。

That sounds marketing to me.

但是

But

总得卖游戏啊，汤姆。

Gotta you gotta sell the games, Tom.

这就是运作方式。

That's how it works.

不。

No.

不。

No.

不。

No.

不。

No.

我知道，但我是说重启往往是营销手段，不一定意味着会有翻天覆地的改变。

I know that, but I'm I'm I'm saying that it a reboot is often marketing, not necessarily it not necessarily it's gonna be this whole big change.

比如，《Munchkin》的粉丝们完全不必担心。

Like, Munchkin fans, I would not be worried.

大概率还是你们熟悉的那款《Munchkin》，只是做些小调整。

Still gonna probably be the Munchkin you love with some minor tweaks.

是啊。

Yeah.

所以没错。

So Yeah.

这种滑稽元素也可以说是随机性因素。

The silly factor can also be said the random factor.

如果你要回归《Dungeon Quest》的话——毕竟我觉得《Talisman》也是同样的情况。

And I if you're if you're going with going back to Dungeon Quest, because also I feel like Talisman was the same thing.

对。

Yes.

根本不可能通关。

It's impossible to beat.

完全随机，但你确实可以...我早年玩过很多次，刚发售时就玩过，结果输得很惨很沮丧。

It's totally random, but you can do I've played many a game early, you know, when it first came out and just lost and been sad.

但当我们以锦标赛模式玩时，一个角色死了就换另一个继续，结果在到达中心前又死了三四次。

But when we played it as a tournament style where when one character died, you just picked up another and just kept going and still died, like, three or four more times before you could get to the center to the yeah.

这个模式我觉得还带点搞笑成分。

That's that's one that also I feel like has a silly factor.

是啊。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

我在角色扮演中最喜欢的部分就是探索。

One of my favorite things in in role playing is the exploration.

你永远不知道下一扇门后有什么，这在桌游中很难实现。

You don't know what's behind the next door, and that's harder to do in a board game.

比如《幽港迷城》在这方面做得就不太好——至少初代是这样，因为你能看到整张地图，知道会有什么。

For example, Gloomhaven does not do it particularly well because you at least with the first Gloomhaven because you can see the whole map, and you can see what's gonna be there.

当年的《英雄无敌》这点就做得很好。

HeroQuest did this well back in the day.

只有地下城主知道。

The only the DM knew.

你面前有张大地图，但不知道每扇门通向哪里。

You you had this big map, but you didn't know what doors led where.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我觉得这方面做得最好的其实是《疯狂诡宅》第二版。

And I think one of the best examples of this is actually Mansions of madness second edition.

同意。

Agreed.

太好了。

So good.

因为你真的不知道会发生什么，因为应用程序某种程度上控制着它，你会觉得，什么情况？

Because you really don't know what's gonna happen because the app kind of controls it, you're like, what?

打开这扇门。

Open this door.

房间。

Room.

然后你会发现，哦，只是有几具尸体。

And you're like, oh, there's just a couple dead bodies.

等等。

Wait.

它们站起来了。

They're standing up.

等等。

Wait.

什么？

What?

你甚至不知道门后是什么类型的房间，因为应用程序知道门后是什么地图板块。

You don't even know what type of room is behind that door because the app knows what map tile is is behind the door.

所以你实际上是在探索这扇门后面有什么。

So you literally are exploring what's behind this door.

这是个衣柜，还是藏着整个剧情大反派的巨型舞厅？

Is it a closet, or is it a giant ballroom that contains the big bad for the entire scenario?

只有打开那扇门你才会知道。

And you don't know until you open that door.

小规模的版本，《Clank》就是这么做的，不过不是传统意义上的《Clank》。

Smaller versions of this, Clank does this, not not traditional Clank.

《Clank地下墓穴》。

Clank Catacombs.

对。

Right.

《Clank地下墓穴》让你外出探索。

Clank Catacombs lets you go out and explore.

甚至有很多游戏根本不是地牢探险类。

And there's a lot of games even if you that aren't even dungeon crawls.

你知道，就是翻开板块看看能发现什么。

You know, you're just going and flipping tiles to see what you find.

嗯哼。

And Mhmm.

说实话，这对我来说是游戏中最吸引我的部分。

Honestly, for me, that's one of my favorite things about games.

如果有游戏能让你翻开板块时心想'哦，不知道另一面藏着什么'。

If there's something where you can flip a tile and be like, oh, I wonder what's on the other side of this.

我超爱这种感觉。

I love that.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯，回到《开拓者》这个话题，它确实包含了角色扮演游戏的一个要素——使用代表地点的卡牌组。

Well, circling back to Pathfinder, that's that's one element of role playing games that it does do is you have these decks of cards that represent locations.

这后面藏着什么？

What is behind this?

是怪物吗？

Is it the monster?

还是我能获得的战利品？

Is it a piece of loot I can get?

或者是陷阱？

Is it a trap?

只有翻开卡牌才知道答案。

You don't know until you flip that card.

确实。

True.

不过，我也见过桌游以多种方式成功运用这种机制。

But, also, I've seen this used in in board games to great success in a lot of different ways.

我在回想去年推出的那款游戏。

I'm trying to think of the one that was, came out last year.

那是款吸血鬼主题游戏——翻牌后你可能被咬，然后规则就会改变。

It was a vampire game where you if you flip it over, you become you can be bitten, and then the rule set changes.

所以无论是人类还是吸血鬼，玩家最终目标都是逃出房子，但遵循不同的规则集，我正努力回忆那款游戏的名字。

So if you're a human getting out either human or vampire, you're trying to get out of the house by the end, but with different rule sets, and I'm trying to remember what the name of it was.

这是一款欧式桌游。

It's a euro game.

我一时想不起来。

It's not coming to me.

但那种踏上新地点、通过翻牌或翻板块触发事件的设计，确实很妙。

But that whole step on a new spot, see what happens by flipping a card or a tile is Yeah.

这种制造紧张感的行动机制非常成功，玩起来超级有趣。

Is a very successful, action thing that creates that tension, which is super fun.

是啊。

Yeah.

战役类游戏的一个优势就是能让你深度沉浸于故事中，体验多章节的冒险。

One of the things that a campaign game, does allow you to do is get really deep into the story, to tell a multi chapter adventure.

我们清单上有几款游戏确实做到了这点。

We've got a couple things on our list, that that certainly do that.

《老鼠与神秘客》是早期典范，它配有完整的故事书，包含角色成长、新剧情，同样的板块会根据故事需要以不同方式使用，最终通过10或12个章节呈现完整的冒险历程。

Mice and Mystics is one of the earlier, examples where you had an entire storybook you were working through, character development and new scenarios and the same tiles being used in different ways based on what the story is and really telling a full fledged adventure by the end of whatever it was, the 10 or 12 chapters of the entire game.

我感觉是什么来着？

I feel like what is it?

《寓言物语》在这方面做得相当不错。

Stuff fables did this pretty well.

确实。

Sure.

我认为至少杰瑞·霍桑早期的游戏都做到了这一点。

I think almost all of the, at least the early Jerry Hawthorne games certainly did this.

说到这个，Plaid Hat公司整体而言，我认为这确实会影响游戏体验。

Well, I mean, speaking of that, the Plaid Hat in general, I believe this this really affects games.

我不想专门点名批评游戏中糟糕的文本，但当你遇到出色的文本时，你会注意到。

I'm not gonna call out necessarily poor writing in games, but when you come across excellent writing, you notice.

我觉得文本质量是主观的，但有些就是让人感觉很棒。

And I guess writing is subjective, but some it just feels good.

比如我玩《污痕圣杯》时，里面的文本就写得特别好。

Like, when I play the tainted grail, the writing in that is so good.

《誓约者》也很不错。

Oathsworn is good.

更现代的是像Foreteller这类应用，它们进一步提升了体验。

And what even enhances this is something that's more modern is Foreteller and other apps like that.

我在玩《誓约者》时用了Foreteller，由《权力的游戏》里扮演莫尔蒙伯爵的演员朗读文本，效果非常棒。

I was I was using Foreteller for Oathsworn, and they have the guy who plays Lord Mormont on the Game of Thrones reading it, and it's really good.

哦，不错啊。

Oh, nice.

我在玩Agamonia时也用它。

I use it for agamonia.

如果故事本身写得好，别人朗读确实能让故事活起来。

And it if the story's well written, this someone else reading it can really bring it to life.

但我玩过很多桌游，明显能感觉到故事是事后补的，或者由游戏设计师兼写故事，这并不意味着写得好。

But I have played a lot of board games where the story is clearly an afterthought or the same person designed the game wrote the story, and that doesn't mean it's good.

你不一定是个好作家。

You're not necessarily a good author.

是的。

Yes.

如果是优秀的写作，它会让你渴望完成冒险，以获得听到故事下一部分的奖励。

If it's good writing, it makes you want to complete the adventure to get the reward of hearing the next piece of the story.

但我要说Plaid Hat，我认为他们的写作水准几乎无人能敌。

But I will say Plaid Hat, I'll put their writing up against almost anyone.

无论他们做了什么，他们都做得非常出色。

They they whatever they've done, they've they've nailed it.

确实如此。

That's very true.

我之前提到过，很多角色扮演实际上是通过电子游戏实现的。

Now I mentioned earlier that a lot of, role playing actually happens through video games.

《最终幻想》系列，日式角色扮演游戏是其中一部分，但还有很多。

The Final Fantasy series, the JRPGs is one aspect of it, but there's a lot.

我是说，《上古卷轴》系列中的《天际》以及所有不同的作品。

I mean, Skyrim and the whole all the different ones in the in the Elder Scrolls lands.

没错。

Yep.

没错。

Yep.

这些都是角色扮演游戏。

Those are all role playing games.

是的。

Yes.

游戏里有战斗和其他内容，但那些游戏包含的东西远不止这些。

There's combat and things, but there is so much in those games.

把电子游戏带入现实，尽情享受吧。

And bringing video games to life, have fun with that.

这真的很难做到。

It's really hard to do.

这是个棘手的问题。

It is a tricky proposition.

但确实有游戏做到了。

But there is games that do it.

事实上，你知道的，《艾尔登法环》最近才刚推出。

And in fact, you know, there's Elden Ring just came out recently.

《上古卷轴》已经被几家公司改编过几次。

There's the Skyrim has been done in a couple by a couple companies.

嗯。

Mhmm.

如果你喜欢这类游戏的话，还有《血源诅咒》。

Bloodborne, if you like that sort of thing.

就像我说的，电子游戏有时很难被替代，比如《上古卷轴》，你永远无法在桌游中获得那种体验。

The video game, like I said, sometimes it's hard to like Skyrim, you're never gonna get that experience in a board game.

你知道的，百分之百不可能。

You know, 100%.

我的意思是，不是说桌游不好，但你永远无法做到一比一还原，因为电子游戏的体量可以非常庞大。

You'll I mean, it I'm not saying the board game's bad, but you're just never gonna get a one to one matchup there because a video game can be gigantic and huge.

事实上，他们正在用《艾尔登法环》尝试这种做法。

And in fact, they're trying this with Elden Ring.

等到你玩完《艾尔登法环》并买齐所有东西时，我估计你最终会花费5000到1万美元，然后收获满屋子的菜鸟玩家。

And by the time you're done playing and buying everything for Elden Ring, I think you're gonna probably end up spending 5 to $10,000 and have an entire room full of amateurs.

埃里克，我一点都没夸张。

I'm not exaggerating there, Eric.

不。

It's No.

他们已经为此发起过两次众筹，但我觉得他们可能只完成了游戏的三分之一。

They've they've done two Kickstarters for it, and they I think they have maybe one third of the game done.

哇哦。

Oh, wow.

电子游戏改编桌游的挑战在于，电子游戏能隐藏数学运算。

The challenge of of video games to to board games is video games can hide the math.

所有维护工作和耗费的时间都由系统自动处理。

So all the upkeep and all the time it would take to do upkeep is just done for you.

要把这些机制移植到桌游里，永远都是个难题。

And that and translating that to a board game is just always gonna be a challenge.

再加上你说的，NPC数量庞大，所有你遇到和操控的角色——这不仅要烧钱，还得花费大量时间。电子游戏里不用考虑的事，在桌游里都得转化为玩家要付出的时间和精力。

Plus, like you said, the amount of NPCs and and so all the characters that you come across and play, it's it's a lot of money, but it's also taking a lot of time that you don't have to think about doing stuff in a video game that you then have to implement as time and effort for the players in a board game.

所以...我也不好说。

So I I don't know.

确实很难。

It's hard.

你几乎需要缩小范围，专注于这个电子游戏世界中较小的一部分，并将其打造成一款好游戏，你无法在后台完成电子游戏所做的所有事情。

You almost have to dial it down and focus on a smaller portion of this video game world and and make that a good game, you just can't do everything that a video game is doing in the background.

对。

Right.

比如，整个《巫师》游戏与刚推出的《昆特牌》对比。

Like, the whole Witcher game versus Gwent that just came out.

嗯，那个确实是。

Well, that that's yeah.

我想那是一个相当宏大的冒险，或者说是一个只选取其中一小部分内容的例子。

I guess that's a pretty big adventure or or example of of something that's just taking a small piece

是啊。

Yeah.

并将其做成游戏。

And making it a game.

我认为RPG粉丝真正、真正喜欢的最后一个方面是那种开放性，能够不受传统桌游限制地做任何事并讲述故事。

One last aspect of RPGs that I think RPG fans really, really like is that openness, the ability to just do whatever and tell a story without the constraints of traditional board gaming.

也有少数游戏试图捕捉那种疯狂、亢奋的能量。

And there are a few games that, that that try to capture that frantic manic energy, as well.

我们提到过一些Plaid Hat公司的游戏。

We mentioned some of the Plaid Hat games.

一些较新的作品更像是自由形式、荒诞的叙事风格。

Some of the more recent ones are much more like free form, wacky storytelling.

谁知道接下来会发生什么？

Who knows what's going to happen?

比如《自由职业者》和《流浪银河》。

Like Freelancers and Wandering Galaxy.

我们就做个决定看看会发生什么，然后随机应变。

Let's just make a decision and see what happens, and we'll deal with it as it comes.

这种风格不那么烧脑，不用想太多，更像是即兴发挥，让事情自然发生的感觉。

That sort of less less puzzly, less thinky, less more just from the hip, let's make this happen sort of aspect.

我列出的一个是Smirk and Dagger最近出的《冒险派对》。

One I put on the list, is is a recent one from Smirk and Dagger called adventure party.

对。

Yeah.

你们俩玩过这个吗？

Have either of you played this one?

玩过。

Yes.

我玩过。

I have.

它本质上是个即兴表演游戏。

It's it's basically a trying it's an improv game.

大家都在屏幕后掷一个d20骰子，然后会给出一个情境，比如你正试图开锁。

Everybody's rolling a d 20 behind their screens, and they're given a situation like you're trying to unlock a door.

根据你掷出的结果——无论是成功还是失败，以及骰子显示的成功或失败程度——你需要即兴描述这个过程。

And based on the result that you got, whether it's a success or failure and how big of a success or failure it is on your die, you then have to narrate the experience.

我觉得他们称之为骰子大师（DM）的人会听每个人的解释，并试图猜出他们掷出的数字。

And the I think they call it the dice master, the DM, is listening to everyone give the explanation and trying to guess what number they rolled.

正确。

Correct.

基本上，你如何用故事讲述一个1到20点的骰子结果？

Basically, how do you story tell a one through 20 die result?

而且这是个即兴游戏。

And it's an improv game.

但每个场景都是由不同的RPG游戏主持人编写的。

But the setup for each of them was written by various, RPG, GMs.

当然。

Sure.

是的。

Yeah.

所以

So

是的。

Yeah.

不过埃里克，我觉得你刚才说的有区别。

I I feel like there is a difference between what you just said, though, Eric.

你说了格子帽然后冒险小队。

You said the Plaid Hat and then the adventure party.

冒险小队是真的可以随心所欲。

Adventure party is that true do whatever you want.

格子帽是哦，没错。

Plaid Hat is Oh, yeah.

它们非常不同。

They're very different.

这里有几个选择。

Here's a couple decisions.

选一个。

Pick one.

现在你看到会发生什么了，这再次体现了桌游的规则限制。

Now you see what happens, which, again, is kind of in the constraints of board gaming.

当然。

Sure.

嗯。

Mhmm.

当然。

Sure.

当然。

Sure.

但它们更像是那种即兴讲故事的桌游。

They but you have, like, this more of just on the fly storytelling games.

比如，叫什么来着？

Like, what was it?

《从前从前》。

Once Upon a Time.

两千年代初同时涌现了一大批这类游戏，全都是关于集体叙事讲故事的。

There were there were a bunch of them in the early two thousands that came out all at the same time, that are all just about the group narrative storytelling.

是啊。

Yeah.

那会变得非常滑稽，特别是当你和孩子们一起玩的时候，我当时就是这么做的。

That can get very silly, especially if you play them with kids, which is what I was doing at the time.

没错。

Yeah.

一个更古老的卡牌游戏，是Fantasy Flight早些时候推出的。

An older, card game, that Fantasy Flight came out with some time ago.

我觉得它现在还在印刷出版。

I think it's still in print.

《黑暗霸主之眼》，这个游戏需要你出牌并向大反派编造借口，解释为什么你最近的任务失败了。

Eye Dark Overlord, which has you playing cards and and giving excuses to a big bad about why you failed your latest mission.

那个游戏很棒。

That was good.

你得，你知道的，编个故事说明为什么你手里的这张牌是导致事情没办成的重要因素。

You you have to, you know, come up with a story for why this card in your hand was an important aspect of why things didn't work.

如果只是机械地玩，游戏就失去意义了，因为有人可能会随便说，然后突然出现一个地精，接着我被自己的脚绊倒了。

If it's just played mechanically, it doesn't it doesn't work because somebody could just like, and then a goblin showed up, and then I tripped over my own feet.

而且，如果你不这样做，游戏就玩不下去。

And, like, if you're not doing it, the game doesn't work.

但如果你投入其中，发挥主题和角色扮演的部分，就会变得相当搞笑。

But if you embrace it and come up with the the theme and the role playing aspect, it becomes quite hilarious.

当然。

Sure.

这就是为什么这些游戏大多是派对游戏。

And that's why most of these games are party games.

你必须以这种方式融入其中。

You have to get into them that way.

但也有游戏可以围绕你正在做的事情构建故事。

But there are also games you can build the story around what you're doing.

比如《最终女孩》和《复仇女神》，当你进行这些操作时，它是机械性的，这些事情正在发生。

So Final Girl, Nemesis, as you're doing this stuff, it's mechanical, and these things are happening.

但你可以说，看，我正在做这个。

But you can say, well, here I'm doing this.

现在我躲到垃圾桶后面。

Here I head behind the garbage can.

你可以...我不知道该怎么解释，但游戏机制让整个游戏活了起来。

Here I you know, you can kinda I don't know how to explain it, but the mechanisms make the game come to life.

没错。

Right.

在《最终女孩》中，我们使用恐怖片的套路来解释所有角色。

Well, with Final Girl, we're using horror tropes for all all of them to explain them.

所以如果你看过电影，就能利用那些套路拼凑情节，你会联想到电影场景，因为我们采用了那些套路

So if you've watched a movie, you know like, you can use that trope to piece together, and you're thinking of a movie as it's playing out because we use those tropes

为每个角色。

for each them.

一部电影。

A movie.

我以前见过这个。

I've seen that before.

我可以整天谈论这个话题，但遗憾的是，我们剩下的时间不多了。

I I could talk about this all day, but, unfortunately, we don't have much time left.

埃里克，你在这里列了一个反向发展的RPG清单。

Eric, you put a list here of RPGs that go the other way.

是的。

Yeah.

好吧，我想我们留到下次再讨论吧，因为我刚刚想到...

Well, I think we're gonna save that for next time because I was thinking of alright.

我们已经讨论过会吸引角色扮演玩家的桌游，但肯定也存在能吸引喜欢特定机制的桌游玩家的角色扮演游戏。

So we've talked about board games that would appeal to role players, but there have to be role playing games that appeal to board gamers who like certain mechanisms.

好的。

Alright.

准备好了。

Ready.

我已准备好下周的事了。

I'm ready for next week.

而且朱莉简直迫不及待了。

And and Julie is practically pouncing.

她她已经准备好了。

She's she's ready.

呃呃。

Uh-uh.

比如，有没有卡组构建类的角色扮演游戏？

Like, is there a deck building RPG?

有的。

There is.

有没有接取和运送类的角色扮演游戏？

Is there a pickup and deliver RPG?

有的。

There is.

真的有吗？

There is?

有的。

There is.

好吧。

Okay.

那么下次将推出《金星商人》角色扮演游戏。

So Merchant of Venus, the role role playing playing game coming up next time.

从技术上讲，我觉得它们都属于接取和运送类。

I think, technically, they're all pickup and delivery.

把这封信送给国王。

Take this message to the king.

不过话说回来

But anyway

是啊。

Yeah.

你可能是对的。

You're probably right.

不过，无论如何，我们下次会听到更多细节，但现在我们应该进入一些游戏评测环节。

But, anyway, we're gonna hear more details next time, but now we should get into some game reviews.

他们说每朵玫瑰都有刺，但并非每朵玫瑰都有呼啦圈。

They say that every rose has its thorn, but not every rose has a hula hoop.

好吧。

Alright.

我想直接进入我的游戏环节，因为第一个是地牢探险类游戏。

I wanna jump right into my games because my first one is a dungeon crawl.

哦，协同效应。

Oh, synergy.

游戏名叫《漫游》。

Game called rove.

《漫游》出现时，它的尺寸就是那样。

When rove showed up, it came in the size.