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大家好。
Hey, folks.
欢迎来到今天的讨论：项目管理人员是否该持有认证，这对你们来说重要吗？
Welcome to our session on whether or not it should matter to you that your project managers are certified.
如果重要，那哪些认证真的能为你的项目带来实际价值？
And if it does, which ones actually make a difference for your projects?
我们差不多每个月都会举办一次这样的活动，直接与在《数字项目经理》平台贡献和合作的专家们交流。
We do events like this once every month or so as a way to engage directly with the experts who contribute and collaborate with us here at The Digital Project Manager.
还不认识我的朋友，我叫加伦·洛。
For those of you who don't know me, my name is Galen Low.
我是《数字项目经理》的联合创始人，今天还请到了几位认证领域的顶尖专家：来自MindsparQ的克丽丝特尔·理查兹、来自敏捷网络的戴夫·普赖尔，以及来自项目管理协会的卡蒂克·尼瓦斯·拉姆多斯。
I'm the cofounder of The Digital Project Manager, and I've also got with me an all star panel of PM certification specialists, Crystal Richards from MindsparQ, Dave Prior from The Agile Network, and Karthick Nivas Ramdoss from The Project Management Institute.
我们开始吧。
Let's dive in.
今天的讨论，就是要帮你们理清各种项目管理认证的区别，看看它们在不同情境下各有什么优势，方便你们在组建团队时做出明智的选择。
Today's session is all about decoding various project management certifications and seeing how they stack up in different scenarios so that you can make good decisions when adding project professionals to your team.
咱们先来认识一下我们的嘉宾吧。
Let's go and meet our panelists.
第一位是 Crystal Richards，MindsparQ 的创始人兼首席顾问，她是业内最受欢迎、最受尊敬的项目管理培训师之一，从 PMP 考试冲刺营到每月一次的交流活动，她都帮项目经理们紧跟最新技能。
So first up is Crystal Richards, principal and founder of MindsparQ, and one of the most fun and incredibly well respected project management trainers in the business tackling everything from PMP Exam Prep Bootcamps to monthly Playdate sessions that keep PMs up to speed on the latest skills.
Crystal，你当时正全力推进《PMP 考试备考傻瓜书》第二版的撰写，结果却遭遇了邮件钓鱼攻击。
Crystal, you were running full steam ahead on the upcoming second edition of your book, PMP Exam Prep For Dummies, when you were hit by an email spoofing attack.
你有没有觉得，那些黑客可能是想偷你的手稿，好赶在七月考新版本的 PMP？
Do you think that the hackers were maybe after an early copy of your manuscript so that they could pass the new PMP exam in July?
我猜是的。
I believe so.
他们还给我留了勒索信。
They left me a ransom note.
不是的。
No.
我开玩笑的。
I'm just kidding.
他们把杂志里的每个字母都剪了下来。
They cut all the letters out of the magazine.
你知道吗，
You know,
我就在想，你到底想干嘛？
I'm just like, what is your endgame?
这简直太离谱了。
Mean, it was just insane.
你说是吧？
It was you know?
考试是
Test is
确实很难。
hard, though.
真的很难。
It's really hard.
把考试写完。
Write the test.
我的意思是，这简直让人难以置信。
I mean, it was so mind boggling.
我就说当时我正在结束一个电话。
I'll just say I was ending a call.
我是项目管理协会（PMI）当地分会的会员。
I'm a member with the local chapter of PMI, Project Management Institute.
我们正要挂电话，突然间，我看到一堆邮件都退回了，而且主题都一模一样。
And we were ending our call, and all of a sudden, I see all these bounce back emails with the same subject line.
我找了个IT顾问，当时在电话里大喊大叫，像只吼猴一样，说：快停下！
And I got an IT consultant, and I'm, like, on the phone screaming like a howler monkey, like, Make it stop!
然后我就翻了翻我们的风险管理计划，就是那种大家都遵守的那份。
So And then I looked at my risk management plan that, you know, that we all follow.
所以，是这样。
So, yeah.
不是，你知道，他们就是这么干的，非得等到出事了才行动，对吧？
No, you know, that's just their way of getting to the most, you know, it just takes that one, right?
还有我们公司培训里学的那些东西，关于风险管理的种种理论。
And, you know, all the things that we learn in our corporate classes, the things that we talk about from a risk management.
可这次，现实直接给了我一记响亮的耳光。
And this is where real life hit me smack dab in the face.
说到危机处理，还能把这事变成一个教学案例，你处理得真不错。
I mean, in terms of crisis management and just turning it into a teachable moment, like, you handled it very well.
那下一个该找谁开刀呢？
Who can I pick on next?
要不我找戴夫吧。
Maybe I'll pick on Dave.
戴夫·普赖尔，敏捷网络的首席体验官，LinkedIn 上头衔多得能把字母表全用完。
Dave Prior, chief experience officer at the Agile Network, and man who has every letter of the alphabet after his name on LinkedIn.
戴夫，有小道消息说，自从你和斯图尔特·杨合著的《没人会来救你：应对混乱的加速指南》出版后，
Dave, a little bird told me that ever since the release of your book, No One Is Coming to Save You, the Power Ups to Help Surf the Chaos that you co authored with Stuart Young.
你的线下Scrum大师和PMP培训课程最近越来越受欢迎了。
Like, your in person scrum master and PMP training sessions have been gaining popularity.
现在是人们对线下Scrum大师和项目管理培训的需求变多了，还是大家只是发现跟你面对面上课特别有意思？
Is there an increased demand for in person scrum master and PM training these days, or have people just found out how much fun it is to be in the same room as you?
我觉得正在慢慢恢复。
I think it is picking back up.
疫情结束那会儿跌得挺惨，但过去两个月，情况明显好转了。
It took a nosedive at the end of the pandemic, but, I mean, the past two months, I think things have been picking up.
你知道的，毕竟大家读了那本书，每个人都该买一本，在亚马逊或者LeanPub都能买到。
You know, obviously, because they're reading the book, which everyone should buy, available on Amazon or LeanPub.
培训一度受到重创，但现在正在回升。
Now training got hit hard, but it's been coming back.
认证也重新热起来了，我希望这预示着未来还会继续向好。
Certification's coming back, and I'm hoping that that's a sign that it's gonna continue in the future.
去年我们见面时，你跟我讲过‘能力加成’这个说法，我特别喜欢。
I really like that idea of power ups when you explained it to me when we were together last year.
还有那些软技能方面也是类似的。
Like, kind of like the soft skills stuff as well.
你现在培训的内容里也包括这些吗？还是说只是……
Is that part of what you're training on now, Or is it kinda like
在Scrum Master课程里确实有这部分。
It is in the in the scrum master classes.
在我看来，这份工作本质上就是一种社交工程。
To me, that whole job is about social engineering.
你的职责就是去提供支持。
So and your job is to be of service.
整个过程本身其实很简单，关键是……
So everything about that is all I mean, it's the process stuff is simple.
最难也最有趣的地方，在于理解那些不断变化的人，还有认清自己。
Understanding how to figure out people who are constantly changing and how to figure yourself out is the hardest part, and the most fun part, I think.
没错。
Boom.
太棒了。
I love that.
我希望我们接下来也能深入聊聊这个话题。
And I hope we dig into that throughout this as well.
我没Crystal那么有激情，但下次我会跟上的。
I wasn't as fiery as Crystal, but I'll pick it up next time.
太好了。
I love it.
太好了。
I love it.
最后一位是项目管理协会的战略经理卡蒂克·尼瓦斯·拉姆多斯。
And, of course, last but not least is Karthick Nivas Ramdoss, strategy manager at the Project Management Institute.
卡蒂克，我对这个特别感兴趣。
Karthick, I was interested in this.
在你获得CPMAI认证之前，你其实参与合著了PMI早期一份关于人工智能、数据科学和机器学习项目的指南。
Before you got your CPMAI certification, you actually coauthored an early PMI playbook for projects that involve AI, data science, and machine learning.
我想问问你，从你写那本书到现在，做AI项目中有哪些经验是经得起时间考验的？
I thought I'd ask you, what is something about working on AI projects that has actually stood the test of time between when you wrote that and now?
是的。
Yeah.
谢谢你的问题，盖伦。
Thanks for that question, Galen.
很高兴能参加这次对话。
And, glad to be here.
在几位即将上台的嘉宾中间，我们刚好有一本自己写的书。
And in, the midst of some imminent panelists, have a book that we have written.
我还没出过书，不过至少我们有这份指南。
I'm not written a book yet, but at least I have the playbook maybe.
所以，说到这个。
So yeah, about that.
那到底什么才是经得起时间考验的呢？
So what has stood the test of time?
我觉得AI项目一直都很依赖数据，而且我们都知道，它们各有特点。
I would say AI projects have continued to be like data dependent and, you know, we know that they are unique.
所以，我们在那本指南里发现的是，大多数企业都需要一些框架，然后根据自己的项目做调整。
So I think what the depth of time, which we actually discovered in that playbook was, you know, majority of organizations are in need of some frameworks that they would need to tailor to their project.
事实上，有76%的企业访谈了超过25个团队，发现他们都在用自己定制的框架来推进AI项目。
In fact, 76% of those organizations, like, had interviewed over 25, and they they found that they are using their own form of framework to for AI projects.
所以我觉得，这种认知经得起时间的考验。
So I think that appreciation has stood the test of time.
对吧？
Right?
不过，要补充一点，变化也确实发生了——随着AI投入大幅增长，尤其是生成式AI的出现。
And what has, however, changed, though, to add on to what I just said, as the AI spend has increased dramatically, right, like generative AI came in between.
那本指南是在生成式AI兴起之前写的。
So that playbook was returned before Gen AI.
现在呢，人们对AI的期望更高了，同时对纪律的要求也更迫切了，得把上千亿美元的投入真正转化成实际价值。
And now you see, like, there is even more inflated expectations and there is even more need for discipline to turn that spend that like hundreds of billions of dollars into actual value.
所以我们希望更多的项目专业人士能参与进来，推动这些价值的实现。
So, and we want more, you know, project professionals to play a role in that to drive that value.
这一点我很认同。
I love that.
工具、方法和思维方式其实没变，但现在一切都像光速一样在推进。
Like, the the tools and the methods and the mindset are the same, but now we're, like, moving at the speed of light.
技术发展得太快了，样样东西都在随之改变。
Like, everything is is is is changing by virtue of the pace of technology.
完全正确。
Absolutely.
没错。
Yeah.
所以这就是为什么
That's why
这一点我很认同。
I love that.
感谢大家今天参与我们的活动。
Thank you all for joining us, today.
我特别兴奋。
I am super excited.
这个小组讨论太棒了。
What a great panel.
我可能有点偏心，但这场讨论一定会非常精彩。
I'm biased, but this is gonna be great.
我想我可以先简单铺垫一下。
I thought maybe what I could do is just tee this up a little bit.
在我看来，项目管理这个行业里，各种认证多得数不清。
So the way I see it is that project management is an industry that is chock full of certification.
实在太多了。
There's so many.
而且很多时候，这些认证都是有充分理由的。
And a lot of the time, it's for really good reasons.
举个例子，像那些在受监管行业里、需要高度透明责任和跨国团队协作的高关注度项目，这还用说吗？
As an example, you know, high visibility projects in regulated industries that require very clear accountability and international team collaboration, like, that's a no brainer.
但对于其他行业的招聘经理来说，我觉得认证不该只是招人时用来免责的护身符。
But for hiring managers in other industries, I feel like certification shouldn't just be that, like, cover your butt insurance policy when you're hiring new talent.
它在实际工作中也得有真正的价值。
It should mean something on the job as well.
问题是，面对一堆让人眼花缭乱的项目管理认证缩写，你往往搞不清楚到底该看重哪一个，才能真正实现这个目标。
But the trouble is, when you're waiting through that, like, alphabet soup that is PM certifications, it's not always clear what to ask for to make that a reality.
所以今天我们要做的，就是把认证这个问题掰开揉碎了讲清楚。
So what we're gonna do today is we're going to unpack the certification question.
我们会梳理几种最主流的项目管理认证，帮你掌握所有关键信息，无论团队成员有没有认证，都能让你的项目飞起来。
We're gonna decode some some of the most popular PM certifications and get you all the insights you need to make great decisions that give your projects wings whether your PMs are certified or not.
明白我刚才的意思了吗？
See what I did there?
好了。
Alright.
我想咱们不如从头说起，慢慢理一理。
I thought I'd dive in and, like, you know, maybe we can start from way back.
我想听听你们怎么看，拿到认证到底意味着什么。
I thought maybe I'd just get from each of you your take on, like, what does it mean to have a certification?
但反过来，它又不代表什么？
But also, like, what does it not mean?
Crystal，要不你先说说？
Crystal, can I pick on you for that one?
当然可以。
Yeah.
我觉得认证至少能提供一些背景信息。
I think it helps to kind of give context.
我当初拿证的时候，老板说这是为了让我能列在政府合同的关键人员名单里。
So for when I got the certification, it meant I was gonna be listed as key personnel on a government contract.
他就是这么跟我说的。
Like, that was what my boss said.
你得把PMP证书拿到手。
You need to get your PMP.
我就问，那是什么东西？
And I said, What's that?
那费用你出吗？
And are you going to pay for it?
他说，就是这个。
And he's like, It's this.
你必须得有这个。
You need it.
我要把你列在这份美国联邦政府合同的关键人员名单上。
I'm going to put you as key personnel on this government federal, you know, US federal government contract.
对，费用我来付。
And yes, I'm going to pay for it.
但我只报销一次考试费，所以你得一次通过。
And I'm only going to pay for the exam once, so you need to make it count.
我当时就说，好吧。
I'm like, Okay.
你知道的，他出钱报了那个集训班。
And being in, you know, he paid for the boot camp class.
他说，你必须得参加完这个集训。
He's like, You just got to go through a boot camp.
我永远都忘不了。
And I'll I'll never forget.
嗯，也许我不该说这个。
Well, maybe I shouldn't say this.
我先不细说了，但你可以想想，现实和PMI的世界完全是两码事。
I'll I'll save it for later but let's just say he there's reality and then there's planet PMI.
就这么说吧。
We'll just say.
天哪。
Wow.
是的。
Yeah.
香料的味道出来了。
The spice comes out.
对，没错。
It yes.
是的，他确实这么做了。
Yes, he did.
我待会儿再说。
I'll say it later.
我等再有点儿火候的时候再说。
I'll wait till we get a little bit more spicy.
不过在培训过程中，我发现自己还挺喜欢这些东西的。
But, you know, through the training, I'm like, I kind of like this stuff.
一开始，前十分钟我就觉得这事儿真挺酷的。
Well, first say, in the first ten minutes, I'm like, this is really cool.
我们在项目里从不搞这些玩意儿。
We don't do any of this stuff in our projects.
不是的。
Mm-mm.
像我们这些刚来的，都觉得，既然要求这么做，那就照做吧。
And, you know, those of us who were, you know, newish, we were like, We take it as we need to take it.
而那些老员工则很不满。
And others who were OGs were like, Angry.
这根本就不是正确的做法。
Like, This isn't how you do it.
我觉得认证的价值在于，如果职位明确要求，那你确实需要它，那就有意义。
Where I see the certification being valuable is that if it's requested, if it's required, and that is what you need for the job, then yes, it makes sense.
我觉得有点争议的是，有人觉得只要拿到证，工作就自动到手了。
Where I see it being a little controversial, I'll say is, Oh, if I get it, then I'll automatically get a job.
很多人都掉进了这个陷阱。
And a lot of folks have fallen into that trap.
那我就不多说了，把这个问题抛给 panel 上的同事们。
So I'll stop and hot potato it to my colleagues on the panel.
我算把问题答清楚了吗？
Did I answer the question?
我觉得是的。
I think so.
我当时说的是，怎么算时间？
I'm like, I said, how times?
我后面还想再深入聊聊这个，因为有人会觉得这纯粹是走形式，但本质上，这是为了政府合同的问责制。
And I do wanna unpack that later because, like, there is this sort of, like, you know, some might say a box ticking exercise, but fundamentally, it's about accountability for a government contract.
并不是说，这就要成为我管理项目的方式。
Not necessarily, oh, this is the way I run projects.
而是说，你名字旁边有个数字，我可以拿它来追责，要是你违背了职业道德，就能把你给拉下马。
But it's like, you've got a number next to your name that I can go after and have you, you know, quote unquote, disbarred if you kind of go against the code of ethics.
没错。
Exactly.
这真的很有趣。
That's really interesting.
Karthick，我想听听你的看法。
Karthick, I wonder if if I can get your take
关于这一点。
on it
也说说你的想法。
as well.
当然可以。
Yeah, absolutely.
我很赞同Crystal提到的，这件事为政府承包领域带来了新的机会。
And I love what, Crystal mentioned in terms of how it opened up an opportunity in the government contracting space.
我想谈谈它如何为我本人打开了机会。
So I would just talk about how it opened up opportunities for me.
我2020年考取PMP时，正处在从个人贡献者转向团队管理的阶段。
So with the PMP, which I did back in 2020, I was at a situation where I was moving from a individual contributor to managing a team.
没错。
Right.
所以我希望掌握一套通用的表达方式，不仅能更好地带领团队，还能跟利益相关方顺畅沟通。
So I wanted to get that common language that I can speak that not only gets me to guide my team better, but also now start speaking to stakeholders.
对吧？
Right?
当你进入一个更高层次的角色，自然就想推动结果，也得知道该怎么跟高层和决策者对话。
So you're now in a more elevated capacity and then you want to be able to drive outcomes and you know what the language you need to speak to your senior stakeholders and the executive audience.
这正是我想要的，同时也希望把我的经验系统化一下。
So that was what I was looking for and definitely looking to formalize my experience as well.
在那之前，我已经参与过好几个项目，但我也想证明自己的能力，顺便拓展一下知识面。
So I had been involved in several projects until that point, but I wanted to also showcase, my credibility and expand my knowledge a bit.
这也是其中一部分原因。
So that was part of there.
另外一点是，我后来从印度搬到英国，又搬到美国，这一步其实完全没料到会这样。
The other piece, kind of unintendedly happened in the back of it is that I relocated from India to The UK and then to The US, and I did not think of it to happen that way.
但拿到PMP认证后，我在全球团队里一下子有了更广的认可度。
But having the PMP gave me a global credibility just given our community across the globe.
这部分原因，也算是其中之一。
So that was, some of it.
除了PMP，去年我还考了CPMAI，因为2024年我负责PMI的AI项目管理，觉得这一步很关键。
And then beyond the PMP, I did my CPMAI like last year, and, I figured it would be an important thing to do with my journey because I was the program manager for AI initiatives at PMI in 2024.
干了一年左右，我就意识到得赶紧补足自己对AI的了解——这领域变化太快了，根本追不上。
And about a year into that, I felt like I should, know, further, build on my, awareness and, you know, with the AI just changing at the speed of light, you're always, you know, trying to catch up on it.
所以后来我考了CPMAI，这个认证后面我会详细聊，它帮我系统性地提升了对AI的认知和专业度。
So, CPMAI, which I'll, you know, talk about later in the, you know, in this podcast was something that helped me build my, you know, maturity in that in a very disciplined way and a structured way.
我觉得这真的特别有帮助。
So I think that kind of really helped.
如果我是招聘经理，那这应该就是我今天想说给的主要听众听的。
So if I were a hiring manager, which has, I think that's the target audience for this call.
对吧？
Right?
所以我觉得，如果团队能使用统一的语言，就能更快地释放价值，提升整体效率。
So I believe that by having that common language in your team, you can actually unlock, value faster and help your team be more productive.
对吧？
Right?
这其实也在推动他们更好地融入团队，还有类似这样的好处。
So you're kind of driving like them into better onboarding and, things of that nature.
另一点呢，我们经常说要让项目管理这个职业面向未来，保持竞争力。
The other piece, which I would say is kind of like, we talk about future proofing the project profession and all of that.
我觉得创新也能让项目本身更具前瞻性，因为工作方式正在飞速变化，你需要一支紧跟前沿、熟悉各种方法，并且能随时灵活应用的团队。
Would say innovate kind of future proofs your project as well, because the world is rapidly evolving various ways of working, and you need a project team who is, like, at the cutting edge, aware of all the ways of working and able to deploy that at a moment's notice.
我觉得这些都算是实实在在的好处。
So I think that those are kind of benefits, I would say.
我特别赞同。
I love that.
我很喜欢这种共同的语言和国际认可。
I love the sort of shared language and international recognition.
当你能快速达成共识、一起高效推进时，这些其实是相辅相成的。
Like, those go hand in hand when you have to be able to, like, you know, get on the same page quickly and, like, run fast together.
没错。
Exactly.
对。
Yeah.
太棒了。
Love that.
戴夫，你怎么看？
Dave, what are your thoughts?
获得认证意味着什么？
What does it mean to be certified?
它又不代表什么？
What does it not mean?
我很久以前就考了PMP认证。
So I pursued PMP certification a really long time ago.
那是2002年的事了。
It was, like, 2002.
那时候我是想多了解一点，毕竟我刚决定好自己要从事什么职业。
And that was because I was trying to learn more about what I decided I was gonna do professionally.
除了CSM之外，我拿的每一个认证，都是我自己主动去追的，因为我对那些东西感兴趣。
And and I think with the exception of my CSM, every cert that I have, it was me chasing stuff I was interested in.
我现在正在考CPMAI，同时也在跟IC Agile一起学另一个AI认证。
Like I'm going for CPMAI now, I'm going for another AI certification from IC Agile at the same time.
我这么做，就是想把知识挖得更深一些。
And that is I'm trying to deepen my knowledge.
唯一不是我主动去拿的，就是CSM。
The only one that didn't happen that way was CSM.
那是因为我有个开发人员硬拉着我去上课，说我觉得我需要被‘纠正’一下。
And that was because one of my developers forced me to go take the class with them because they decided I needed to be fixed.
对我来说，有些人考认证就是为了拿个证，这我无所谓。
For me, some people take it just to get to cert and I don't care.
有人来上我的课，就只想拿个证，行吧。
Somebody shows up in my class, you just want a certification, fine.
但我有两天时间让你改变想法。
I got two days to change your mind.
我是说，让你明白你到底为什么来这里。
I mean, about why you're here.
但我觉得，要是为了真学点东西而去学，收获会大得多。
But I think if you pursue it for knowledge, it's a lot more rewarding.
作为雇主，我绝对不会雇一个连PMP都没有的项目经理。
As an employer, I would never hire a project manager that didn't have a PMP ever.
连面试我都不会给他。
I wouldn't even interview him.
因为我最不想做的，就是得坐下来从头教人工作和工期的区别。
And that's because the one thing I don't want to have to do is I don't want to have to sit down and explain the difference between work and duration to somebody.
我也不会雇一个连CSM或CSPO都没有的人进Scrum团队，我不想把时间浪费在那些你该一来就懂的基础东西上。
I wouldn't hire somebody for a scrum team that didn't have a CSM or a CSPO because I don't want to spend my time on the really basic stuff that you should walk in knowing.
当我看到有人通过了我的CSM课程，我是这么跟他们说的：在敏捷圈里，你通过考试，就好比一个16岁孩子刚从车管所拿到驾照那天。
When I have people that get through my CSM class, the way I explain it is when you pass the test in the Agile community's eyes, it's equivalent of a 16 year old that just walked out of the DMV with a driver's license on your sixteenth birthday.
但这并不意味着你真有多厉害。
It doesn't mean you're any good.
我也没指望你一上来就有多厉害。
Now I don't expect you to be good.
我知道你得改不少地方，但我希望你知道怎么系安全带、怎么启动车子。
I expect to have to fix a lot of stuff, but I expect you to know how to put on your seat belt and turn on the car.
我特别喜欢这个说法。
So I love that.
这个比喻太贴切了——你刚起步时的状态，根本不代表你已经是顶级司机。
That's, like, such a good analogy in terms of, like, yeah, where you're at coming out of the gates doesn't mean you're an expert level f one driver.
它只说明你能打转向灯，至少不会被说成不合格。
Means, yeah, you can use the blinkers and, you know They can't call
你只能算是个合格的认证敏捷从业者。
you like certified scrum adequate.
这样恐怕行不通。
Like, that wouldn't probably work.
我太喜欢这个说法了。
I love that.
这里面有很多非常棒的观点。
I think there's amazing points there.
戴夫，我特别喜欢你那句干脆的话——不会雇一个没认证的人。
And Dave, I love your mic drop about like, yeah, I wouldn't hire someone who's not certified.
我确实不会。
I wouldn't.
我不希望你还得花时间解释这些事。
I do not wanna you have to explain this stuff.
我想我们能不能直接举几个例子，让听众更清楚地理解这一点。
I wonder if we can like maybe just dive into like a few examples that like anchor this for the audience.
我们刚才在谈共同的语言。
You know, we're talking about shared language.
我们说的是要懂游戏规则。
We're talking about knowing the rules of the road.
我们说的是要满足某些合同的要求。
We're talking about meeting the requirements of certain contracts.
Karthick，要不我先问你吧，主要是因为现在AI简直是无处不在的问题。
Karthick, maybe I can pick on you first, mostly because I think AI is the elephant in every room these days.
CPMAI到底是什么意思？
What does the CPMAI stand for?
它具体是干什么的？
Like, what is it all about?
它是不是只适用于团队里有数据科学家的项目？
And is it actually only for projects where there are data scientists on the team?
是的。
Yeah.
那我先说说CPMAI到底是什么。
So I'll talk about what CPMAI first.
CPMAI这个缩写，我知道现在术语很多，但这个其实很简单。
So CPMAI, I know there's a lot of acronyms, but this one is really simple.
就是认证人工智能管理专家。
It is certified professional in managing AI.
对吧？
Right?
这就是它的全称。
So that's what it stands for.
这是一种专业认证。
So it's a specialized certification.
对吧？
Right?
它主要面向那些人工智能项目的负责人，或者那些虽然没被正式称为项目经理、但实际承担着项目领导角色的人，比如数据科学家、软件开发人员等等。
So it is ideally for those, AI project leaders or even project leaders who don't see themselves as, like, a project manager, not seen by their title, but they're often, like, data scientists, software developers, etcetera, and are expected to play that role and, you know, step up to lead that project.
对吧？
Right?
这对那些还不太了解AI及其技术细节的项目人员来说，其实也很有帮助，只要他们参与了AI的落地过程。
It's also, I would say, a benefit for project professionals who don't yet see themselves as, like, very conversant in AI and the technicalities of it, but are involved in a rollout.
比如现在每个机构都在推生成式AI工具，像CoPilot这样的，我们公司也加入了这个行列。
For example, every organization right now is, you know, kind of rolling out the generative AI tools like CoPilot, and, our organization was part of that as well.
我当时参与了一个课程团队，负责在全公司范围内推广CoPilot。
And, I was involved in, like, a course team that was, looking to roll out CoPilot throughout the organization.
我觉得，有了CPMAI的知识，我确实受益不少，因为我明白其中涉及的环节，不可能一上来就急着全面上线。
And I think with my knowledge of, CPMAI, I kind of benefited from that because I know what are the status involved, and you can't really just cut to the chase and the and have a rapid rollout.
你得先跟技术团队沟通，搞清楚技术限制，以及必须建立的治理框架，才能真正推进整个部署。
You need to be able to, talk to the technology team, understand the limitations and the governance frameworks that you have to put in place, before you do the entire rollout.
所以我说，打个比方，CPMAI就像一种专业认证。
So I would say that, you know, just to give you an analogy, you know, the CPMAI is kind of like a a specialized certification.
对吧？
Right?
就像你盖房子请了个总包，但你真会让他去负责核电站或者风洞这种专业项目吗？
So in the case of, like, a a general contractor that you involve for building a construction project, like, maybe a residential project, right, would you really put them in charge of a specialized, project, like say a nuclear reactor or like a wind tunnel or so on?
对。
Right.
所以这里面涉及各种各样的风险因素，你得在具体的方法里把这些都规划进去。
So there are different sorts of risk factors involved and you need to plan for that in that particular method.
你可以拿 CPMAI 来这么想。
So think of that in how CPMAI is.
它是一项专业认证，是在 PMP 打下的基础上建立的，而 PMP 是面向所有项目管理人员的基础认证。
It's a specialized certification that builds on the foundation that is given by the PMP, which is like a project management, you know, for anybody sort of a a context.
太棒了。
That's awesome.
关于专业化这部分，真的很有意思。
It's really interesting about the specialization part of it.
我知道你的一些同场嘉宾对AI有些独到的看法。
I know that some of your co panelists here have some spicy opinions about AI.
Dave，我可以把话题抛给你吗？
Dave, can I throw to you?
是的。
Yeah.
对我来说，CPMAI以及这个领域最大的好处之一，就是让我搞清楚自己作为项目经理到底该往哪儿走——我可不想当那个天天写提示词的人。
So for me, like one of the biggest benefits with CPMAI and just that space in general, I don't know where I fit as a project manager, because I don't want to be the prompt guy.
我永远不可能在这一行达到专家水平，也没打算靠这个去应聘，因为这根本不是我想干的工作。
I'm never going to be the expert enough in that that I can be like, that's what you should hire me for because I don't want that job.
但我现在还不知道该做什么。
But I don't know what to do yet.
所以目前，尤其是这方面，我正在努力寻找自己在这个领域里的位置。
So a lot of it right now, specifically with that, is trying to find my place in that world.
我知道他们需要项目经理，也知道我必须得懂行，可具体该怎么做，我还是没想明白。
Because I know they need project managers and I know I have to be fluent, but I don't know what to do yet.
不过现在还早，我觉得你完全来得及去摸索出自己的方向。
So it's early enough, I think, that you can still try to figure that out.
但我确实学到了很多需要关注的重点，这才是我觉得最有价值的地方。
But I'm learning a ton about things I have to pay attention to, and that's where I find it really valuable.
我觉得CPMAI认证的背景挺有意思的，卡蒂克，你刚才其实提到了这一点。
What I find interesting about the, like, heritage of the certification, the CPMAI certification, is that in some ways, Karthick, you touched on it.
它原本并不是专为项目经理设计的。
It was, like, not necessarily project managers.
我们说的是那些做AI的數據科學團隊，他們根本沒把自己當成项目经理。
Like, you know, we're talking about, you know, teams of data scientists building AI where they didn't necessarily self identify as project managers.
所以這個認證給了他們一個基礎，教他們怎麼向利益相關者提對的問題，怎麼在某些事情上堅持立場——畢竟在AI建模這類事情上，後果實在太重大了。
So giving them that sort of baseline of, like, how to ask the right questions of stakeholders and how to, you know, push back on certain things because the implications are huge when it comes to, like, AI and building models and things like that.
我們得停下來好好想想倫理問題。
We need to pause on the ethics.
也得停下來關注數據治理這塊。
We need to pause on, like, the data governance side of things.
但戴夫，你說的這點特別有意思，這到底會怎麼影響項目的角色呢？
But, Dave, I think it's really interesting what you're saying, right, which is, like, how does this impact, you know, the role?
我看到聊天裡有人說，這根本不是一個頭銜。
And I think I saw it in the chat that it's not a title.
项目管理是一种角色。
It's a role, project management.
我看到一些组织，特别是PMI，正在朝这个方向走：不是每个人都会拥有‘项目经理’这个头衔，但人们会不会需要去领导某些项目呢？
It's an angle that I see some organizations, especially PMI going in, where it's just like, yeah, not everyone's gonna be a title project manager, but are there projects that people will need to lead?
当然会。
Hell, yeah.
这些项目会涉及人工智能吗？
Are they gonna involve AI?
会的。
Yes.
所以我觉得这很有意思，就像大卫你说的那样。
So I think that's really interesting in terms of, like, you know, David, you're saying, like, yeah.
我们这些拥有‘项目经理’头衔的人，又该往哪儿站呢？
Where do we fit as title project managers?
我能插一句吗？
Can I interject for a sec?
是的。
Yeah.
我看到那个评论，我想用善意的方式回应那个人。
So I saw that comment, and I'm gonna say this with love to the person.
像这样的评论，确实会让我有点不舒服。
So, comments like that, I think, they kind of trigger me a little bit.
这其实也是一样的，对吧？
The same thing, too, right?
当人们说项目经理不能懂敏捷，或者敏捷专家不能当项目经理时，情况也是一样。
It's the same thing, too, when people say, Oh, a project manager can't be an Agileist and vice versa.
你想想招聘经理，他们根本不在乎这些头衔。
When you think about the hiring managers, they don't care.
他们根本不懂这些概念，只关心你能不能把活儿干好。
They don't know what the they just want you to get the work done.
所以当我们陷入这种争论——这到底是不是一个角色时……
And so, when we get into this debate about, is it a role?
这算是一种职业吗？
Is it a profession?
他们根本不在乎。
They don't care.
你得满足他们的需求。
Like, you want to meet their needs.
比如，你想跟戴夫合作，但他非得你有证才肯雇你。
So, knowing if you want to work with Dave, Dave ain't going hire me until I have a certification.
这种要求才是让你介意的关键。
Like, that's the trigger for you.
所以，大家如果找工作，或者看公司要求，只要一再强调‘优先考虑PMP’，那就去考一个。
So, for you all, when it comes to looking for the positions or when it comes to the companies, if they consistently say PMP is preferred, get it.
如果他们要求Scrum或者SAFe，而你又想做这个岗位，那就去拿证。
If they say scrum or safe, and that's the job that you want, get it.
我挺欣赏这次PMP考试的新版本的，说白了，他们这是冲着竞争对手来的。
And what I do appreciate about this latest iteration of the PMP Exam, I mean, they're coming for their competitor.
我不会天天提他们的名字。
I'm not going say their name daily.
他们正冲着他们去的。
They're coming for them.
他们占了敏捷方法的六成。
They have it is 60% of Agile.
他们说的是，你知道吗？
And what they are doing is saying, you know what?
组织需要的是能灵活应对的项目经理。
The organizations need an adaptable project manager.
我们都知道，传统的瀑布模式未必总适合，毕竟项目变化这么快。
And we know the traditional waterfall may not always be the right approach, given how dynamic our projects are.
所以我们就在回应这个问题。
So, we're answering that.
我们要满足这个市场需求。
We are going to meet that market demand.
如果招聘方或公司明确要求PMP证书，我的建议就是去考一个。
And if the recruiters, the organizations say PMP preferred, get it, is my recommendation.
我确实看到它的价值。
And I see the value.
所以我不仅拿了ACP，还拿了CSM。
So, I not only have this ACP, but I also have the CSM.
说实话，经常有人问我：我该选哪个？
And I'll be honest, like people will like, which one should I get?
我会反问：你们团队用的是哪个？
I'm like, what does your team have?
最好用同一种语言沟通。
Like, speak the same language.
我之所以去考CSM，是因为我实在受不了别人总问这个问题，太烦人了。
But I went and got the CSM because I'm like, I need to be able to answer this question because it's driving me nuts.
现在我能清楚地说出两者之间的关键区别和不同之处。
And now I can speak to the key differences and the distinction between the two.
我不打算再占太多时间了。
I'm not going to take up too much more time.
所以，这个问题大家可以私下交流。
So, that's an offline question for anyone.
但我建议别太纠结于它算不算一种职业。
But I think try not to get caught up in, is it a profession?
算不算一个职位？
Is it a role?
你能不能自称是敏捷专家？
Should you can you be an agileist?
他们叫我‘蜂蜜布布’我也无所谓。
I don't care if they call me honey boo boo.
只要有人愿意付钱让我当项目专业人士，能灵活应对，认证能打下基础——就像戴夫说的，掌握共同的语言，好跟团队对上话，这就够了。
If they're going to pay me to be a project professional that can be adaptable and the certifications can provide the foundation, just as Dave said, the language so I can speak the same language as my team, get it.
这就是我的观点。
That's my stance on it.
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所以，我们都同意。
So the whole agree.
头发打理得很顺滑。
Slick of hairs.
我认为这些界限正在消失，真正把这当作专业技艺的人，必须精通所有形式。
I think those lines are going away, and people who practice this as a professional craft will have to be expert in all forms.
我也喜欢这种适应性正在融入其中。
I like that adaptability is coming into it as well.
而且，确实，我觉得这个比喻会贯穿整个对话。
And, like, yeah, I feel like this analogy is gonna, like, thread through the whole conversation.
但说到共同语言，你去一个国家，那里的人说什么语言？
But, like, that shared language, you go into a country, what language do they speak?
如果你想好好沟通，就得学他们的语言。
If you wanna be able to communicate, learn that language.
说白了，就是这个道理。
That's kinda the thing.
我想稍微聚焦一下CSM这个话题。
I did wanna maybe zero in a little bit on the CSM.
戴夫，我能不能跟你多聊两句，因为确实如此。
And Dave, if I can pick on you a bit, because Sure.
之前你提的那点，我完全同意。
Earlier, like, your point is well taken.
如果我们是个Scrum团队，那我只会招那些真正懂行、会干的人。
If, you know, we are a scrum organization, I'm only gonna hire people who know what they're talking about and know how to do it.
认证就能告诉我这个人是不是真懂。
Certification tells me that.
但说实话，我有时候也见过相反的情况。
I actually have sometimes, I've seen the opposite.
我见过有人在根本不做Scrum的公司里，硬要找一个CSM。
I've seen folks looking for a CSM in an organization that doesn't do scrum.
也许，你知道的，也许
Maybe, you know, maybe
大多数时候
Most of
都是这样。
the time.
是的。
Yeah.
他们到处挥舞着手
Where they're waving their
还总把“冲刺”挂在嘴边。
hands and using the word sprint a lot.
是的。
Yeah.
是不是因为我们自己都不清楚该用什么术语交流？
Is it is it because of, like, we're not sure what language we speak here.
我希望你至少有某种认证。
I hope that you have some kind of certification.
还是说这是一种理想化的期待？
Or is it aspirational?
或者说，有没有一些领域，客户成功经理真的能合理地应用到非Scrum的环境中？
Or, you know, are there some areas where the CSM actually does translate legitimately into non scrum contexts?
我觉得过去十五年里，这已经发生了很大变化。
I think it's changed a lot over the past fifteen years.
现在，人们因为觉得传统方法太难而放弃了，结果导致规划能力全面下滑。
Right now, there's this sort of systematic collapse of people's ability to plan because they bailed on traditional stuff because it was too hard.
他们只是对敏捷比划两下，并没有真正落实。
They kind of waved their hands at Agile and didn't really do it right.
现在问题来了，根本行不通。
Now it doesn't work.
很多人于是来找客户成功经理或产品负责人，想学正确的做法。
And a lot of people come to a CSM or a CSPO to learn the right way to do it.
他们花两天时间学怎么用一套方法，结果就像教你在咸水池里游泳，然后把你扔进淡水里。
And they spend two days learning how to use something that it's like, I'm going to teach you how to swim in a saltwater pool and then throw you back into freshwater.
因为他们的环境根本支撑不了，也从来没打算支持这套东西。
Because their environment can't support it and wasn't designed to support it.
或者他们只是假装在用SAFe或者其他方法，想学怎么正确操作，但可能所在的组织根本没为这种模式做好准备。
Or they're pretending to do SAFE or some other form, and they want to know how to do it right, but they might be trying to do it in an organization that isn't built for it.
我觉得这正是个大问题。
And I think that's the such a, like problem.
这真是个有意思的信号。
What an interesting signal.
就连和敏捷教练聊的时候，也会发现他们一进来，马上就得证明自己存在的价值，就像逆流而上的鲑鱼，撞上一个没搞懂、却还想试试、又记不清当初为啥请他们的组织。
And I think even talking with, Agile coaches as well, where, like, you know, they get brought in and then almost immediately need to, like, justify their own existence because they're, you know, they're like, you know, salmon swimming upstream in an organization that hasn't gotten it right but wants to, but also can't remember why they hired
他们根本不想做变革该做的事。
They don't wanna do the work of the change.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
他们想要无脂的脂肪。
They want fat free fat.
我的意思是，这种东西根本不存在。
I mean, they can't you can't have that.
真的不存在吗？
That doesn't exist?
这其实是
It's
就像那种生酮饮食，天天去塔可钟吃东西。
part of that keto diet where you eat at Taco Bell every day.
太棒了。
Love it.
克里斯特尔，我想再回头问问你，你之前提到，你之所以考了PMI的敏捷认证，主要是因为客户要求。
Crystal, I wonder if I could swing back to you because you mentioned, you know, you got your ACP, your Agile Certified Practitioner, from PMI mostly because a client asked for it.
你认为，到底该由谁来决定雇用持有ACP认证的人呢？
Like, what's your take on who should be looking to hire folks with an ACP certification having sort of gone through that?
说实话，我也不知道该怎么回答这个问题。
I don't know how to answer that, to be honest.
这事儿太复杂了，戴夫和卡蒂克，你们也说说看。
It's such a and, you know, Dave and Karthick, please chime in.
说到敏捷，传统项目管理我们都知道PMP，欧洲还有PRINCE2，对吧？
I find with the Agile, it's you know, with traditional, right, PMP project management, we know of PMP and PRINCE too, right, in Europe.
但敏捷认证太多了，五花八门的。
But with Agile, there's so many certifications.
我邀请他一起参加。
I asked him to join.
我带过一个学生。
I had one student.
他跟我一起备考了ACP考试，
He took the ACP Exam with me,
然后他就说，好吧，我又拿了SAFE。
and then he's like, Okay, I got the SAFE.
然后我又拿了另一个SAFE认证，
And then I got this other SAFE,
接着我又拿了CSM，然后又去考了
and then I got the CSM, and then I
拿了CF，我就问他：你怎么拿了这么多证？
got the CF I said, Why did you get so many?
他说：每次面试，人家都说，你这个证不错，但能不能再拿一个那个？
He's like, because every time I interviewed, they were like, Oh, that's nice you have that, but can you get this one?
其实他们自己也不清楚，在敏捷领域，公司们还没搞明白到底要什么，对吧？
It's like they don't know at that point with Agile, organizations aren't quite sure what they Right?
今天流行这个，明天又换那个。
It's the flavor of the month.
我真的希望他们能跟着Dave上课，真正理解这些认证教的是什么，而不是只盯着证书本身。
And I really do wish they're taking classes with Dave so that they understand the differences of what the certifications are teaching you, not just that you have the certification in and of itself.
你是真想推行Scrum框架，还是只是想要个证？
You know, is it that you want to implement the Scrum framework?
你是想实现像XP这样稍微不同的方法吗？
Is it that you want to implement something a little different like XP?
我的意思是，ACP认证里正好会讲到这些内容。
I mean, that's what we touch on in the ACP certification.
关键区别就在于，ACP的范围更广，而Scrum只专注于Scrum框架本身。
And that's the distinction is that it's more broad with ACP versus the Scrum is specifically the Scrum framework.
我跟别人说的就是这一点。
And if and that's what I'll tell people.
如果你和那些接受过相同训练的人一起工作，拿同样的认证自然更合理。
If you work with other folks who are trained in that, it just makes sense to get the same certification.
但不，不，不。
But no, no, no.
我得到的回应是：我想显得不一样。
The response I get is, well, I wanna be different.
什么？
What?
咱们根本说不到一块儿去。
We don't speak the same language.
你现在已经完全误解了拿证的真正目的。
Like, you're you're now you're missing the point of why you're getting the certification.
在我的理解里。
So in my mind.
我就说到这儿吧。
So I'll stop there.
我太喜欢这个说法了。
I love that.
这里面信息量真大。
There's so much in there.
说实话，我完全同意。
Like, in terms of, like I I agree.
我觉得很多人就是想显得与众不同。
Like, I I think a lot of people, they wanna stand out.
你懂的。
You know?
他们想要拿一个别人没有的证书，就为了能炫耀自己有。
They wanna get the certification that maybe no one else has so that they can say that they have.
但问题是，这真的有价值吗？
But also, is that where there's value?
我刚才跳过一个问题，其实就是说，加入一个圈子，到底是为了戴个徽章，还是说这本身就是目的？
I skipped over a question, but it was kinda like, you know, being part of a club, you know, is it just a badge or actually is that the point?
对吧？
Right?
你其实说的是，你跟其他人用的是同一种语言，你并不特别。
Is that, you know, you do speak the same language that you are like all these other people, that you're not like different.
重点就在于，你跟他们是一样的。
The whole idea is that you're the same.
你现在连证明自己特别的机会都没有，因为得先通过那些烦人的筛选。
Now you can't even get to the part where you get to prove you're different because you have to get through the stupid screening thing.
所以这些证书，我连个面都见不到，根本进不了谈话的房间，因为ATS一看到我，就直接把我筛掉了，就因为我缺了那么一两项东西。
So all those certifications, like, I can't even get into a room to talk to somebody and explain who I am because the ATS screams me out every time because I'm missing whatever thing I'm missing.
我在想，我们能不能往深了聊聊这个？
I wonder, like, can we go there?
其实这倒是个不错的过渡，因为我们刚才在谈招聘经理，他们在要什么，他们自己到底知不知道自己要的东西有没有道理，或者到底懂不懂这些要求意味着什么。
Actually, it was, like, maybe a good segue because, you know, we're talking about hiring managers, you know, what they're asking for, whether they know if, what they're asking for makes any sense or whether they know what it means.
所以，Crystal，你提的这点特别好，而且是出于好意。
So and then I think you raise a good a good point, Crystal, like, you know, with the best intentions.
Dave，我同意你的看法。
Dave, I agree with you.
有些人去考一堆证书，是因为好奇，想学真本事，而不是单纯为了拿个牌子好绕过ATS。
Some people will go and get a bunch of certifications because they're curious, because they want the knowledge, not because, you know, they are they just wanna wear badge that gets them around the ATS.
但对那些要招产品经理的人来说，他们怎么分辨一个人只是在刷证书、凑数量，却没有真本事呢？
But for folks who are hiring a PM, like, how can they tell if someone's just, like, gaming the system and, like, collecting certifications without the skills to back
他们怎么知道这些证书背后是不是空的？
them up?
好问题。
Oh, great question.
或者说，证书能不能说明一个人的用心和追求呢？
Or, like, is there a case to be made for certifications telling a story of, like, you know, intention.
对吧？
Right?
就像戴夫说的，你刚从车管所拿到驾照。
Like Dave, you said, like, you just came out of the DMV with your driver's license.
你才十六岁。
You're 16.
某种程度上，有些证书可能也是这个意思。
That's in some ways, some of the certifications may be saying that.
我懂这些。
I know stuff.
请雇我吧，我想成长。
Please hire me so I can develop.
别因为我有驾照就雇我。
Don't hire me because I'm an f one driver.
你要雇我，是因为我懂得怎么开车。
You know, hire me because I know how to drive a vehicle.
说到这个问题，你怎么让招聘经理看穿那些只会堆证书、玩字母游戏，实际上啥本事都没有的人呢？
Somewhere in there to the question, yeah, how can we how can hiring managers kinda, like, cut through people who are, like, gaming the system, you know, alphabet soup, but actually nothing to back it up?
戴夫，要不我先听听你的看法？
Dave, maybe I'll throw it to you first.
我以前雇过一个人，他有PMP认证，还自己编PMP培训材料。
I hired a guy one time because he was a PMP, and he had been building his own PMP training materials.
我当时就想，这家伙肯定懂行。
And I was like, well, damn, this guy's got to know his stuff.
结果呢，他可能是我见过最差的项目经理。
Probably one of the worst project managers I've ever met.
我拿到PMP认证后，回到原来公司，就跟团队说：咱们把PMP里每一步都从头到尾走一遍。
When I got my PMP, I went back to where I worked, same company, And I said, all right, we're going to do every step in the PMP front to back.
他们让我停手之后，我花了两年时间才重新赢得信任。
And it took me two years to recover my credibility after they told me to stop.
我觉得理论知识和实际能力之间差别很大。
So, I think there's a big difference between the theoretical practical knowledge.
你可能没有证书，但照样是个出色的项目经理。
I mean, you might not have a certification, you might be an amazing project manager.
我觉得任何证书都不代表你真懂行——这点大家都会同意。
And I don't think any certification I I think anybody would tell you this, it doesn't mean you're good at it.
它只说明你掌握了那套基本术语而已。
It just means you have developed a basic understanding of that language.
所以，真正能看出来的是你能不能跟人好好交流。
And so the only way they're going to get that is if they actually talk to you.
因此，在面试时，你或许该设法筛掉那些根本没法深入对话的人，也许还该设个门槛。
So maybe in an interview process that you're trying to screen out people you think won't be able to have the conversation, and you're hoping that if, you know, maybe there should be like a limit.
如果你拿了八张以上证书，那就直接出局吧，因为你根本专注不了任何一件事。
If you have more than eight certifications, you're washed out of the system because you can't commit to one.
我不知道。
I don't know.
反向ATS系统。
Reverse ATS.
是的。
Yeah.
关键词堆得太满了。
Stuffed too many keywords.
是的。
Yeah.
你直接出局了。
You you do not pass go.
是的。
Yeah.
这不就是个悖论吗？要是连ATS都过不了，你又怎么积累经验呢？
You know, the catch 22, how do you get experience if you can't even get past the ATS to begin with?
认证要求成了道门槛，真正有潜力、需要积累经验的人根本进不来。
Like, the certification requirement becomes the gate where there's no like, the right people getting in to build their experience aren't getting in.
他们连展示自己的机会都得不到。
They're not even getting to that stage where they can explain themselves.
戴夫，你说得对，这些人连面试都进不了，因为系统只看证书，而这些证书在实际工作中可能根本没那么重要。
Dave, to your point, you know, they're not at they, like, won't even get to the interview stage because the screen on it, the filter is about certifications that frankly might not even matter in that, like, employment context.
所以我想补充一点，确实应该去考那些真正相关、含金量高的认证。
So just to add to that, I mean, I think it's important to pursue those certifications that are really relevant and, you know, high quality.
对吧？
Right?
这其实既是求职者的责任，也是招聘方的责任，毕竟这是一种双向的互动。
So it's kind of the onus on the candidate as well as the hiring manager in, in, in a way, because it's an exchange that's happening.
对吧？
Right?
如果一份职位描述里随便提了个证书，而你根本没打算把它当硬性要求，那就别写上去。
If there is a a job listing where you don't, you barely mentioned some certification, which you're not really considering as a qualification, then don't put it there.
或者反过来，如果你确实希望候选人具备某项技能，觉得认证能帮到他们，那就把它写进去。
Or, you know, on the other hand, if you do want somebody to do a particular task, which you think they would benefit from a certification, then do feature in there.
反过来，作为求职者，你也该关注那些真正能帮你拿到面试机会的要点。
And on the flip side or the candidate, you want to advertise or, you know, look at those aspects that are going to really get you to that ADS.
对吧？
Right?
所以这确实是个重要的筛选标准。
So that's definitely a, important screen.
别堆一堆字母缩写，只挑那些你真正具备的、相关的认证就好。
And so let's not put a alphabet soup there, but really focus on the ones that you can have.
你知道的，你只需要选择展示简历里最贴合职位描述的那部分就行了。
You know, you only have to choose to show which, you know, portions of your resume you think would best fit that, you know, job description.
我太赞同了。
I love that.
如果从头追溯，一直回到源头，你就能看清问题到底出在哪里。
When you trace it all the way back up the mountain to where the river starts, like, you can see where the problems begin.
对吧？
Right?
你就像是个招聘经理。
It's like, you might be a hiring manager.
你在招一个项目经理。
You're bringing on a project manager.
但你自己可能根本不是项目经理。
You might not be a project manager.
你就会想，那我该提什么要求呢？
You're like, oh, well, what should I ask for?
你上Indeed看看。
You go to Indeed.
找个模板照着用。
You get a template.
再跟HR聊聊。
You talk to HR.
HR会说，嗯，上面写的是你应该要求这些条件。
HR is like, well, it says you should ask for this.
然后你就想，行吧。
And you're like, okay.
那我就把这些都加上吧。
I guess I'll put it in there.
你不想看一千份简历，因为现在这行情，你一发招聘广告，肯定会有大量人投递。
You don't wanna review a thousand resumes because in this current economy, you put up a job posting, you better believe you're gonna get a lot of people submitting.
你确实想筛掉一些，但话说回来，我们现在又走得太远了，非得要求一堆东西不可。
You do kinda wanna whittle it down, but, you know, we've almost gone too far now to be like, okay, well, have all these things.
要MBA学位，要ACP认证，还得有各种各样的资格证书。
Have an MBA, have an ACP, have, you know, have, like, all of these accreditations.
这样理论上，我只看那些确实符合岗位要求的人。
And that way, in theory, I'm only looking at a subset of people who are qualified for the job.
然后就不必一个个面试那么多人了。
And then I don't have to, you know, interview a lot of them.
但与此同时，这种做法可能把真正适合你公司的人才全都筛掉了。
Meanwhile, that may have just filtered out everybody who was actually gonna be great in your organization.
一是因为这些条件的组合太苛刻了。
A, because of the combination.
二是，有些人才很有能力，也有经验，只是没凑齐所有证书。
B, because, you know, there's folks who are very talented, who have a bit of experience, who don't necessarily have all the certifications.
你可能会看一份职位描述，觉得简直完美，就差那一条要求，可你连面试的机会都拿不到。
And you might even look at a job posting and be like, it sounds perfect other than that thing that they're asking for, and I'm never gonna get to that table.
还有，戴夫，你说得对，这确实是招聘经理最容易犯的错误。
And Dave, to your point, right, like and and that that can actually be the biggest misstep for a hiring manager to be like, okay.
没错。
Yeah.
我本来想挑那些大家都说该找的人，把他们当成候选池，可这不代表他们就真的合适。
I was gonna, you know, filter up the top because that's what everyone says I should be looking for, and then that's my candidate pool, which doesn't mean they're gonna be good.
你想想那个例子。
Look at that story.
对吧？
Right?
就算没有证书，你看那些要求，我要是把所有这些技能都攒齐了，哪来的工夫去积累十年机器学习经验？
Even without the cert like, I mean, I look at some of them and be like, to get all the stuff that I have, when would I have had time for ten years of machine learning?
他们还指望一个人同时精通项目管理、PMO、敏捷转型、软件开发、人工智能，全塞进一个年薪十五万美元的职位里，这根本不可能。
Like, there's no space in there for they want, like, years of project management, PMO, agile transformation, software development, AI, like, all in one person for, like, a $150,000.
真要有这样的人，谁也请不起。
If that person existed, nobody could afford them.
没错。
Mhmm.
我觉得这个问题挺关键的，因为如果放宽来看，这不只是项目管理的问题。
It's I like that it's going here because, like, if we zoom out, it's not just project management.
我觉得，现在的就业市场就是这个样子。
I think, like, you know, the job market is this.
团队在招聘时承受着巨大的压力，必须招对人。
There's a lot of pressure on teams to make the right hire.
招聘人才成本太高了。
Mishires are expensive.
没人有这个时间。
Nobody's got time.
技术发展得太快了。
Technology's moving fast.
那真是太好了。
It'd be great.
对。
Yeah.
咱们找一个有十年机器学习经验的人吧，而且还得……
Let's get somebody with ten years of machine learning experience, and and and.
如果能找到一个
And if we get Four
有四年经验的25岁年轻人。
years of experience than a 25 year old.
是的
Yep.
对
Yeah.
没错
Yeah.
确实
Yeah.
要是你还在娘胎里就开始写代码，那就是我们要找的人。
Exact if you were coding in the womb, that's who we want.
但我也不确定。
But, I don't know.
Crystal，要不我来问问你的看法？
Crystal, maybe I could throw this at you.
你觉得怎么样？
Like, what do you think?
如果现在有人要招聘项目经理，根据我们刚才说的，你建议他们怎么才能找到真正优秀的人才，而不是因为要求一些未必必要的证书，就把好苗子给筛掉了？
If someone was hiring a project manager today, based on what we've said, like, what would your recommendation be to get a really good talent pool and maybe not just, like, filter out some of the good noise, some of the good candidates by asking for certifications that may or may not make sense?
我希望招聘经理们能记住，他们自己当初也是从零开始的。
I really want hiring managers to remember they had to start somewhere too.
我觉得很多人，我理解，确实压力很大。
I think a lot of people, I get it, were overwhelmed.
但就像你说的，我们总希望找一个全能的超级英雄，什么都不用教就能上手。
But it's like, just as you said, we want someone to be the superhero, and I don't have to train them anything.
有时候，关键是要看这个人有没有正确的态度和潜力。
And sometimes it's thinking if they've got the right spirit right.
但很多时候，你根本见不到本人，因为简历都是招聘专员在筛，他们太忙了，只能按清单逐个过。
But sometimes you don't even get to meet that person because your recruiter is the one who's looking through it, and they're going through the list because we're so busy.
有时候，我们需要多给一点宽容。
Sometimes I just it's giving grace.
要保持开放的心态。
It's being open minded.
我知道这话说起来容易做起来难，因为我几年前自己找实习的时候也经历过这些。
And I know that's easier said than done because I went through my own hiring process a couple years ago for an internship.
我觉得如果能找到实习机会，像谷歌那种学徒项目就更好了。
I think internships, if you can find them, apprenticeships like Google apprenticeships.
说白了，你得像我们以前说的那样，搞点游击式营销。
I mean, you just have to be, you know, what we used to say, guerrilla marketing.
就是给自己搞点游击营销，或者叫胶带营销，反正就是跳出常规套路。
I mean, guerrilla marketing for yourself and just or duct tape marketing, like, just outside of the box.
我想再深入聊聊刚才提到的几个点。
I mean, there's a couple things I want to unpack with what was said.
迪安娜之前在聊天里也说过，有些职位非得要你有PMP认证不可。
I think Diana said it earlier in the chat about, you know, some of these jobs, they're like, they require us to have the PMP certification.
就像你刚才说的，这其实就是为了缩小人选范围，因为招聘经理实在忙不过来。
Exactly what you said, it's the way to whittle it down because hiring managers are overwhelmed.
每天有太多简历堆到我们桌上，用这种方式筛选一下，也算是一种捷径。
There's a lot of resumes that are coming across our desk And that's just a way to, like, filter out.
有些人觉得，我管孩子烧烤也算项目管理。
Because some people are like, you know, I manage my kids' barbecue, so I'm a project manager.
但你总不能因为管过孩子，就给你一千万的合同去管项目吧。
And it's like, I cannot, like, give you a $10,000,000 contract to manage based on you managing your kid.
我需要的是真正认真对待这份工作的人。
Like, I need people who are serious.
所以，证书就是一个信号，说明你愿意为自己投资，也真正投入这个行业。
So that's also an indicator is that the certification or two is an indicator that you are making an investment in yourself and a commitment to the profession.
说到这些职位，我也想聊聊。
I also want to say about when we see those jobs, right?
那种职位简直就是天方夜谭。
They That's the unicorn, right?
他们想要的是一种根本不存在的超人。
Like, they want this superhuman person that does not exist.
我想对团队里的女性朋友们说点实在话。
And I will say this real talk for my women in the group.
别觉得自己必须满足所有条件。
Do not think you have to meet 100% of the bullet points.
我们在这方面特别典型。
Like, we are notorious for that.
有个男朋友跟我说，只要满足前三条，他就投简历。
I had a guy friend tell me, If I meet the first three bullet points, I apply.
我当然觉得他这么做没错。
And I'm like, Of course you do.
没错，他这么做完全合理。
Like, Of course you do.
我老是想，天啊，这个条件我都没有。
I'm like, Oh my God, I don't have this one thing.
你知道吗？
And it's like, You know what?
那只是他们的理想清单而已。
It is their wish list.
所以这是我的观点，也是给大家的建议。
So that is my and this is for everybody.
我不只想针对女性，也包括年轻人。
So I don't want to just make it women specific, but even youth.
我们总觉得自己得把每一条都满足才行。
Like, we feel like it's we've got to meet every item.
有时候他们会说，那先看看能不能尽量靠近这些要求吧。
And sometimes they're like, Well, let's see if we can get the closest to it.
第三点，戴夫，你说得对，关于PMI。
The third thing, Dave, you're right on with the PMI.
我跟你说个小秘密。
Let me tell you a little secret.
我们PMI的本地分会，正需要人来做项目管理的工作。
Our PMI local chapters, we need people to do project managements.
真的需要帮手，可惜他们自己也都是全职的。
Like, we need help because they are full time too, unfortunately.
你可能会想，哎呀，我有点害怕。
And you think like, Oh, I'm intimidated.
每个人都有PMP证书。
Everyone has their PMP.
我们确实有，但在分会里却没人用。
We do, but we're not using them in our chapters.
所以，现在如果你愿意帮忙，人家就会说：‘你来负责吧。’
So, this is an opportunity for you to now just know if you volunteer, they're like, Oh, you do it.
然后你就一直被安排做下去。
Oh, you keep doing it.
但正是这样，你才能积累经验。
But that's where you get the experience.
还有人脉。
And the network.
没错，还有人脉。
Exactly, and the network.
所以我真的想鼓励大家，不管是你的敏捷小组、本地的PMI，还是敏捷组织
So, I do want to encourage people, whether it is your Agile group, it is your local PMI, Agile
联盟，都行。
Alliance, whatever.
没错。
Exactly.
敏捷联盟现在和PMI合并了，我得说一句，因为我住在华盛顿特区，所以免费打个广告。
Agile Alliance is now with PMI and, you know, shameless plug because I'm in the DC area.
今年七月，敏捷联盟大会就要在华盛顿特区举办了。
The Agile Alliance Conference is going to be here in DC in July.
你可能会想，哎呀，我负担不起。
So, you know, try to and you're like, oh, I can't afford it.
那就去当志愿者，这才是你得做的‘胶带式营销’。
Volunteer like, you know, do that's the duct tape marketing that you're going to have to do.
你得主动去了解，想办法参与进来。
You have to go and, you know, figure out.
我知道这招管用，你已经上线了。
I know it's working, and you're on.
你说到点子上了。
You said it.
找工作本身就是一份工作。
Finding a job is a job.
对。
Mhmm.
你得给自己挤出时间来干这个。
You just have to carve it out for yourself.
所以，这就是我的一点浅见。
So that those are my 15¢.
你们刚才只是随便说说而已。
You guys were just throwing it on there.
我很认同Crystal说的那些。
I kind of love what, Crystal is saying.
我的意思是，经验当然至关重要。
So, I mean, experience is, you know, critical, obviously.
如果真有什么能一锤定音，那就是你正好有做这个项目所需的全部经验，但话说回来，其他经验也一样关键。
I mean, if anything is perfect, if you have the exact experience to do a project, I think that, trumps everything, but you know, to get in there, the other that experience is so critical.
我觉得这对招聘经理来说也不容易。
And I think it's a tough job for hiring managers as well.
我们特别想找那些掌握前沿技能的人。
Like we are keen for people who have the cutting edge skills.
他们通常觉得，得懂AI工具和解决方案之类的。
They often think that, you know, they need to be aware of AI solutions and tools, etcetera.
我昨天刚看到，埃森哲，这家咨询界的巨头。
I just read yesterday that, you know, Accenture, you know, eminent name in consulting.
对吧？
Right?
他们说，现在光有大学文凭，已经不够在咨询行业找到工作了。
They say that, a college degree is not just enough for getting a job in consulting anymore.
这部分是因为他们期望候选人能用AI解决过去那些仅凭大学学历的人就能完成的任务。
Part of that is because they expect, like, what I read is that, the, you know, the candidates might be able to use AI to, you know, solve for things that earlier they would have expected in a person with just a college degree to be able to do.
所以这在一定程度上降低了门槛，但也扩大了人才池的范围。
So it kind of lowers the barriers for everyone, but now it kind of broadens the talent pool right now.
招聘经理现在得在更广阔的人才市场里做判断了。
The hiring manager has to make a, you know, bet on even an even wider, market there.
所以作为求职者，你得靠实际经验和岗位技能脱颖而出。
So you have to kind of be able to, you know, shine through with your experience as a candidate and choose skills on the job.
我觉得这时候认证特别有帮助，尤其是那些要求严格的认证。
I think that's where certifications would give you an edge, you know, especially the, rigorous ones.
它们能证明你掌握的技能得到了业内权威机构的认可。
You know, they show that you have, skills that are validated by, you know, a trusted authority in the space.
这对求职者在如今竞争激烈的市场中脱颖而出非常重要。
So that's, I think, an important, you know, support for the candidate to get to this, tough job market.
而且反过来想想，Crystal，你提到的那种‘胶带游击营销’，我觉得特别有意思。
And even, like, just to flip it around, like, Crystal, I like what you said about, like, the duct tape guerrilla marketing on that side.
但话说回来，Karthick，作为招聘经理，我也同意你的看法。
But, But, like, even for the hiring manager, Karthick, like, I agree.
对他们来说，这也不容易。
Like, it's tough for them too.
就像我们常对求职者说的，别以为简历被ATS系统扔进黑洞就是唯一出路。
They that but, like, just like a job seeker, we always tell them, like, okay, yeah, that, like, ATS, throw your resume into a dark hole is not the only way to do it.
我们也要反过来想，招聘经理得主动一点，多参加活动，多接触年轻的新锐人才，或者转行的资深人士，总之就是多跟人打交道。
I think we also need to flip the script as well for hiring managers to be open, to, like, be networked with, to, you know, attend these events, to meet young emerging talent, or even, like, older, more senior pivoting talent, or just the people.
对吧？
Right?
多跟人聊聊，建立对话。
Like, have a dialogue with people.
我最后的感受是，有时候并不是故意的，只是因为人总会不小心把事情搞复杂，结果我们搞出了一个认证体系，这玩意儿其实对谁都没好处——你要求的那些东西，自己根本不在乎，真正合适的人反而因为觉得你们太死板，根本懒得申请，或者连ATS都过不了。
I think, like, the the thing that I'm coming away with here is that sometimes, and not by design, just by accident, and because, you know, humans have this way of kinda screwing things up, we we've created this, like, great filter of certifications that's not good for anybody because suddenly, you're asking for things that you don't even really care about, and then the candidates that you want aren't applying or getting through the ATS because they're like, wow, you sound really stodgy.
你就像那种非得要PMP证书才肯招人的老派老板。
You're, you know, like a buy the book PMP spot.
我也得把其他那些证书都备齐。
I need to have my other, you know, certifications as well.
其实我根本不想来你们这儿工作。
I don't even wanna work for you guys, actually.
不过说真的，你们俩说不定还挺配的，你说呢？
Whereas, actually, that might have been a good pairing, you know?
这就像是那种让人不舒服的约会软件游戏——明明两个人特别合适，却因为咱们设计的这些机制，根本连不上。我们本意是想减轻负担，只筛选最合格的人选，节省时间，招到理想的人才，可结果反而把机会弄丢了。
It's like the icky game of, like, you know, the dating apps where you're like, actually, people who would have been very compatible, like, might not be connecting with one another for all these things we designed to try and help ourselves out, to, like, not be overwhelmed by candidates, to, you know, only get the most qualified people, to be mindful of our time and to make, like, a really good hire, that's what's at stake.
可我们用证书来筛人的一些做法，明明没什么道理，却让所有人都更难了。
And yet, some of the things that we do, some of the things that we use the certifications for to, like, exclude people actually, even if there's not necessarily a good reason are some of the things that actually make it even more challenging for everybody.
对。
Yeah.
还有一点，我们总在说ATS怎么筛选求职者，但招聘经理这边呢？
And just a note on that that, you know, for hiring managers, we talk about ATS filtering candidates and that side of the pool, but how about for hiring managers?
现在求职者都知道怎么用ChatGPT和Claude这类工具，专门在简历里堆关键词。
Candidates now know how to use tools like chattypd and Claude to just force with a keyword in their resume.
你根本不知道候选人是不是真有这技能，还是简历全是AI生成的？
And you don't even know whether that candidate really possesses that skill, or is it just like a AI generated resume?
对吧？
Right?
那你怎么能相信呢？
So how do you trust it?
不过，我个人要是看到简历上有个我信得过的名字，心里会踏实一点。
Though, I mean, I would personally feel more sort of assured if I see a a name that I trust in their resume.
通常是名校。
Like, often it tends to be colleges.
也可能是某些认证。
It could also be certifications.
对吧？
Right?
就是那些你确信跟岗位高度相关、含金量高的认证。
So it could be ones that you trust are highly relevant and high quality for doing that job.
太棒了。
Love that.
完全同意。
Totally agree.
非常感谢大家今天抽出时间来参与。
I wanted to say a big thank you to everybody for volunteering their time today.
各位，今天真的特别开心。
Guys, I had so much fun.
谢谢你们分享的专业见解。
Thank you for sharing your expertise.
谢谢你们带来的精彩观点。
Thank you for bringing the spice.
谢谢你们抛出一个个重磅问题、留下一个个金句，还有那些实实在在的真话。
Thank you for all the gauntlet dropping and mic dropping and just, like, legitimate truths.
我觉得今天的讨论特别有启发性。
I think this is really insightful.
非常感谢你。
So thank you.
谢谢你，罗斯。
Thanks, Rose.
谢谢您。
Thank you
真的非常感谢。
so much.
感谢你。
Thanks for.
谢谢你陪我一起梳理这些，加文。
Thanks for walking through this, Gavin.
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