为什么项目管理正成为每个人的工作

如果找不到导师，那就找一个榜样，这也能帮你不少。

And if you can't find a mentor, find a role model, and that will go some of the way towards helping you.

不过这个话题确实很难，你经常在情绪上来的时候说出或做出一些事，事后才意识到：天啊，我刚才简直像我父母一样，我真不该把父母带进工作里。

It's such a difficult topic though, the amount of times when you feel emotional and you say and do things and you think after, oh my goodness, that was just like a parent, one of the parents, and I shouldn't really be bringing my parents to work with me.

但你之所以会陷入这种状态，情绪失控，往往是因为你把太多自我价值和正在做的事、正在讨论的内容、甚至受到威胁的东西绑在了一起。

But the reason you gain that kind of state usually, and the reason we become emotional in those situations, can often be because we've got too much of our personal self connected to whatever is being engaged with, whatever is being discussed, whatever is being threatened.

你要明白，事情没做好不代表你能力差，也不代表你这个人失败了，别把自我价值和工作混为一谈。有些人太把工作当回事，把它当成自己的孩子，觉得不容有失。

If you go, well it doesn't mean you're not doing well, it doesn't mean you're failing as a person, it doesn't mean any of that take your ego out of this and be, you see these people get too connected to the work and they make it part of themselves and the work is their precious child and it can never be.

可实际上，别人随时可能把你手里的东西拿走。

Someone can come and take that away from you any day.

赞助方一转身，说停就停，资金说没就没。

Some sponsor can just turn off the tap and say there's no more money for it.

抱歉，项目没了。

Sorry, it's gone.

这种事我经历过。

And I've been in those situations.

我亲眼见过这种事。

I've seen that happen.

我见过这种事，还有很多人因此被公司裁掉了。

I've seen that happen, and hundreds of people have been rolled off the company.

你懂的。

You know?

最近这种情况经常发生。

It's happening frequently at the moment.

别让你的自尊心和工作绑得太紧。

Don't allow your ego to be so connected to the work.

工作不顺，并不等于你这个人就不行。

If the work isn't going well, that's not a reflection on you necessarily.

诚实地评估自己，看看有没有什么地方可以改进，比如做个更称职的项目经理，或者做个更好的职场人。

Being honest with yourself if there's something you can do to improve on, and if there's ways that you can be a better project manager as a result, or even just a better corporate citizen.

但事情一出问题，没必要就生气、抵触、情绪失控。

But there's no reason to get upset and angry and defensive just because things start to go wrong.

这话说得在理。

That's fair.

挺有意思的是，这又回到了你之前说的那点——事情本来就会变，这其实不该让人意外。

It's funny because it comes back to the thing you said earlier, which is, like, part of it is things are gonna change, and that shouldn't be a surprise.

这正是项目经理该有的思维，你知道的，风险一直存在，得时刻留意。

That's like the project manager mindset, you know, risk exists and you have to pay attention to it.

说白了，这本来就是项目经理的思维方式。

It's like that's kind of part of the project manager mindset.

有时候，问题确实出在自尊心上。

You know, it does come down sometimes to ego as well.

对吧？

Right?

外界有些事你控制不了，你的表现是该看全部因素，还是只看那些你能掌控和影响的部分？

To be like, okay, things outside of your control, is your performance based on all the things or, you know, is it only the things that you can control and influence?

还有，你又在怎么应对周围的环境呢？

And also, you know, what are you doing to react to the environment around you?

是的。

Yeah.

而且很多这类情况确实也很不公平。

And a lot of those situations that happen as well, they can be unfair.

这个行业里经常会出现不公平的事：有人在组织的其他地方拖了你的后腿，或者做错了决定，结果最后背锅的却是你。

There's a lot of unfairness that comes into this profession where somebody else somewhere in the organization will let you down or they'll make a wrong decision and somehow you end up carrying the blame for that.

你得学会把自我和这些事分开，明白这不过是组织内斗的体现。

Again, you've got to learn to separate your ego from that and see this is just a manifestation of organizational politics taking place.

有时候，公平根本就无从谈起。

And sometimes fairness doesn't work as it should there.

提前做好心理准备吧。

Just be ready for that.

我导师教我的第一课，我提过很多次，书里也反复提到：如果你出门前就知道要下雨，淋湿了也就没那么在意了。

The first lesson that my mentor gave to me, I do mention this, and this becomes a recurring thing in the book, is that if you go out knowing it's going to rain, you don't mind so much when you get wet.

顺便记得带把伞。

Also bring an umbrella.

有时候你得接受，自己总会被淋湿。

You sometimes have to accept that you're gonna get rained on.

在项目管理中，有很多日子都是阴雨连绵。

And in project management, there's a lot of days where it rains.

是的。

Yeah.

说得对。

Fair enough.

也许我们可以换个角度想想，因为我们刚才聊了不少关于如何与赞助方沟通、如何应对利益相关者、如何坚持立场这些事。

Maybe it's a good point to flip it around because we've been talking a bit about, you know, engaging with sponsors, stakeholder communication, pushing back, and that side of things.

但你之前还提到过领导力，我猜你指的是在面对不确定性、动荡和计划外变化时，如何带领团队。对于刚接手项目团队、却没有正式职权的人，你有什么建议？他们可能会忍不住想：‘我是项目经理，你们都得听我的。’

But the other thing you mentioned was around these leadership skills, and I'm assuming to lead the team through uncertainty, through some of the tumult, through some of the things that, you know, are changing or not going to plan, what is one piece of advice you'd give to somebody starting to be leading a project team that they don't really have formal authority over, that they might be tempted to just be like, I'm the project manager.

你们都得按我说的做。

I will command and control you.

照我的命令行事。

You do my bidding.

那他们应该怎么做呢？

What should they do instead?

我之前也遇到过完全一样的情况。

I had exactly that same situation.

我接手了一个团队，他们工作能力不错，但同时还要兼顾自己本职的工作。

And and I inherited a team, and they were good performers, but they also had the rest of their jobs to be doing as well.

他们并没有全职投入到这个项目中。

They weren't dedicated to the project.

我发现他们其实已经做得挺远了。

And what I found was they were getting so far.

他们表现得不错。

They were good.

如果催得紧，他们也能交出质量尚可的成果。

And if pressed, they would hand over something that was of good quality.

但很多时候，我都得自己补上差距，把他们的幻灯片提升到下一个水平，修改他们的沟通内容和交付物，有时候甚至是政策和流程，检查错误，必要时进行修正。

But too much of the time I was having to make up the difference and I was having to take their slide right up to the next level, take their communication, their outputs, in some cases policies and procedures, and having to review, find errors, make corrections where necessary.

有时候时间太紧，那种状态根本没法持续下去。

Sometimes time pressures and it wasn't sustainable at the time.

我心里其实也觉得不对劲，知道必须得改，但一直说不清问题出在哪，直到导师来了，我才看到他是怎么做事的——完全聚焦在行动上。

I did question myself as to I knew something wasn't right and something had to change, but I couldn't really put my finger on what it was until the mentor came in and I saw his way of working, which was to be absolutely action focused.

他有个习惯，我管它叫‘哒哒哒’，开会的时候他一进来，就在笔记本上哒哒哒地敲个不停。

The habit he had, and I refer to it as tap tap tap, we're sitting in meetings and he comes in, he's tap tap tap on his laptop computer, tap tap tap.

只要有人一说‘是啊，这事得做’，他立马就接话。

Every action somebody every time somebody says something like, yeah, we need to do that, he'd jump in straight away.

谁来负责这事？

Who's doing that?

什么时候能完成？

And when are they doing that by?

哒哒哒哒哒，一刻不停。

Tap tap tap tap tap.

所有事情都被他一一记下来了。

Captured through everything.

所以根本不会有模棱两可的承诺到处飘着。

So there were no vague promises floating around.

这些事情上从来不会有任何误解。

No misunderstandings around these things.

然后他会在会议结束时，或者会后，把内容再复述一遍。

And then he'd repeat it back either at the end of the session or after the session.

我们会一起核对笔记，问他：我记的这些都对吗？

He'd we'd share the notes and say, have I captured everything correctly here?

这些都是要落实的行动项。

These are all the actions.

以前你参加一些会议，能抓出两三个重点行动项就不错了，可他能带回二三十条。

And you used to go into some meetings capturing two or three big ticket meeting actions, and he'd be coming back with like 20 or 30.

你自己的日程里可能就记了五六条，还忍不住想：我真说过这个吗？

You'd have your day missed decades five or six of them, and you'd feel, oh, did I say that?

这事儿其实特别简单。

It's very easy.

我确实说了，而且这件事必须得办。

I did say that, and that does have to be done.

然后他会盯着你落实这些事。

And then he'd hold you to account on that.

所以他特别执着于会议中的行动和决策，一点不含糊。

So an obsessive drive towards being action and decision focused, especially in meetings.

去开会之前，一定要有明确的行动项或待决事项。

Don't go to a meeting without there being any actions to consider or decisions to be made.

如果去参加了，也要尽可能把所有细节都记录下来。

And if you do go to these meetings, capture every detail you possibly can from it as well.

现在有了这么多AI工具，能录音、能转文字，还能事后做分析和推理，方便多了。

It's a lot easier these days with all the AI tools that we've got and the ability to record and transcribe and all that kind of thing, and even do reasoned thinking afterwards as well and analysis on that.

你甚至可以让AI分析你在会议中的表现，告诉你哪里可以改进。

You can even get those AIs to analyse your performance in the meetings and let you know how you could do better.

把这些工具都用起来，但任何时候都要紧盯行动和决策，一丝不苟。

So utilise all of that, but be action and decision focused at all times, obsessively so.

久而久之，这些事就会变成常态，你的行动清单会变得很长，但因为你会定期跟进，所以它们都能很快被完成。

And eventually, what will happen is they'll just become normal, and you'll have these massive action logs, but they'll be getting completed quickly because you'll be chasing them up on a regular basis as well.

即使是高层人员，这里有个小贴士：对付那些接手了任务的高层，哪怕他们是高管团队的人。

Even senior people, and here's a tip for dealing with senior people who take on actions, even if it's people in the C Suite.

你可能会想，跟他们跟进时绕着弯子说话，比如‘嗨，你好啊’。

You might be tempted to just go tiptoeing around the topic with them when you when you chase them up and say, oh, hello.

不用。

No.

你可以提醒一下，我们之前开过会，你当时说好要处理这件事的。

You might recall we had this meeting, and you might have said you were gonna do this.

不用。

No.

不用。

No.

不用。

No.

不行。

No.

不行。

No.

这是你在这一天认领的任务。

Here's the action you picked up on this date.

能给我更新一下，这项任务完成了吗？

Can you give me an update, please, on whether it's completed?

就这么简单。

That's all it takes.

他们太忙了，没空去翻那些没用的东西。

They're too busy to go filtering through all that nonsense.

他们没精力应付这些。

They don't have the bandwidth to deal with that.

他们会对你的长篇大论感到烦躁，简明扼要才管用。

They'll be annoyed with your long prose, simple to the point message.

这点你放心。

Trust me on that.

别再拐弯抹角了。

No more tiptoeing.

直接说就行。

Be direct.

客气点，但要直截了当。

Polite, but direct.

我喜欢这个说法。

I like that.

再说回那个‘嗒嗒嗒’，我特别喜欢它的地方，跟AI笔记工具不一样，它是一种实时的承诺，能把对话变成你所说的‘决策’。

Coming back to the tap tap tap, what I really like about it versus an AI notetaker is that it's a real time commitment that turns talk into, you said the word, decisions.

对吧？

Right?

开会的人之所以让人讨厌，就是因为很多时候光说不练，大家只是在那儿发散想法，但不转化成决策，事情就一点进展都没有。

Like, people in meetings and are the reason why people loathe meetings, think, is because sometimes it's just talk and people talk to bounce ideas around, but it doesn't move anything forward by talking until it can convert to a decision.

但如果你等到会后才做这件事，那就没法在会场上建立这种责任意识，比如：等等，这事谁来负责？

But if you're waiting until after the meeting to do that, then you don't have that sort of accountability in the room to be like, okay, wait, hold on, who's gonna own that?

你吗？

You?

好，没问题。

Okay, great.

我就记下来，这虽然不是正式合同，但算是大家达成的共识。

I'm just gonna jot that down and then that's like part of the not contractual obligation, but the agreement.

对吧？

Right?

已经明确由这个人来负责这项任务，或者这五项任务，形式上是机械的，但决策本身就是进展。

A decision has been made that this individual is gonna own that piece or those five pieces and it's mechanical but decisions are progress.

对吧？

Right?

我们就是这样向前推进的。

That's how we progress.

不然的话，咱们能聊上好几个小时，结果事后啥也没干成。

Otherwise, you we could talk for hours and then nothing will happen afterwards.

所以我特别喜欢这种方式，这其实是个很重要的能力，尤其对那些有误解的人而言。

So I really I really like that and I think that's a great skill for folks who again, these misconceptions.

如果有人误以为自己被任命为项目负责人，就意味着只要记记笔记就行，幸好现在有AI做记录，我可以坐享其成——这根本行不通。

If someone was under that misconception that they have been appointed to be the project leader, but all that means is taking notes and thank God there's an AI notetaker, I'll just sit back and do nothing, Won't work.

即使你只是负责确认截止时间，让记录的人清楚谁该做什么，你也必须全程积极参与。

You still need to be fully engaged even if you are just pressing that point about when will you do it by so the notetaker knows, you know, who's doing it.

一定要说得非常、非常、非常明确。

Be very, very, very specific.

然后要让对方知道：我会跟进这件事的进展，别想躲过去。

And then let people know, I will be chasing you for updates on this.

有时候人们承诺一件事时，会有一种乐观偏见。

The other thing people do sometimes is when they commit to something, they have an optimism bias.

他们觉得，要是能有个完美的周五，完全没打扰，说不定就能把这大块工作做完。

And they think, well, on the best possible day I might be able to get this big piece of work done on if I have all a Friday with no interruptions.

没错。

Right.

你有没有过一整个周五完全没被打扰？

Have you ever had a Friday with no interruptions?

所以要提醒那些做承诺的人，这并不是要束缚他们，而是给他们一些清晰的边界，好让事情有条不紊。

So remind people who are making these commitments, it's not putting you in a position where you're trying to cage people, You are trying to put some guide rails there and you're trying to have some control there.

让他们现实一点，如果你觉得他们太乐观了，而且一向如此，那就跟他们聊聊，说：我不在乎你实话告诉我，本来以为一周能做完，结果需要两周。

Ask them to be realistic and if you think they're being overly optimistic and if they've habitually been overly optimistic, maybe have that conversation with them and say look I'm not going to be mad at you if if you think I wanna hear you say it's gonna take one week and actually it's gonna take two.

我宁愿听到的是需要两周。

I'd rather hear it's gonna take two.

对。

Yeah.

我会帮你确保周五一整天都不被打扰。

And I'll work with you to make sure you have no distractions on Friday.

是的。

Yeah.

就是这样。

There you go.

我会给你一个完全没有干扰的周五。

I I will give you that Friday with no distraction.

不用了。

No.

我喜欢这个主意。

I like it.

我想再回过头说一件事，因为一开始我们谈到，要按正确的方式来做。

I wanted to come back to something because, you know, at the beginning, we were talking about, okay, we'll learn it the right way.

对吧？

Right?

哪怕你接手的是个看似简单的小任务，甚至都不叫项目，也要认真对待。

So like, even if you're given supposedly simple project or small project or maybe it's not even called a project, you know, do it right.

我们之前稍微聊过一点PRINCE2。

We talked a little bit about Prince two.

不过我在想，会不会有人太死守书本上的方法，反而造成一些误解或者障碍呢？

I wonder though, you know, if there are any misconceptions or obstacles that might be created by someone who is too fixated on learning by the book.

那些关于正式流程的误解有哪些？很多时候你一发现项目根本没法按标准来、完全不按教科书走，最先得扔掉的就是这些东西。

What are the misconceptions around the formal process that sometimes don't fly and are are the first things that you have to drop when you realize your project actually doesn't follow all of the standards, doesn't, you know, go exactly textbook perfect?

实际的工作方式总是更乱一点、松散一点，也更灵活多变。

The ways of working are a little bit messier and sloppier and dynamic.

我见过不少人刚入行时都以为自己必须这么做、那么做，结果发现根本行不通，别人都不听你的，这时候你得明白：别纠结这些了。

What are the things that you see people enter the role and be like, but I thought I was supposed to do this, this, and this, but it's just it's not working and everyone's not doing what I say, and you're like, actually, don't worry about that.

书的前半部分讲的都是我自己的这个顿悟过程——我一开始以为所有项目都该这么管、都该这么交付。

The earlier part of the book is all about me making that discovery where, firstly, I assume this is how all projects are going to be managed and all projects are going to be delivered.

但这本书的真正目的，是教我怎么把项目做出来，而不是让我变成一个完人、一个管理者、一个优秀的公司员工，或者精通所有配套的工作。

And the point of the book is to teach me how to deliver projects, not to be a complete person, not to be a manager, not to be a good member of a corporation, and not good at doing all the other kind of work that goes along with that.

它非常聚焦。

It's very focused.

所以你指望别人自然而然地跟着你走，尤其是他们自己根本没接受过相关培训，那是不可能的。

So expecting everyone else to just automatically be going along with it, especially if they've had no training themselves on it, it's not going to work.

这些早期章节让我明白，我之前太依赖流程了。

And that's what I learned in those early chapters where I was overly reliant on the process.

你经常会看到这种情况，尤其是在项目管理办公室里特别明显。

And you see this sometimes where and you see it a lot in PMOs.

有些PMO的人从来没亲手交付过项目，他们只知道规则该怎么做，然后死板地照搬。

When you have a PMO who's never delivered a project, so they know that the rules are this, and they have blind obedience to it.

规则就是这么定的。

The rules are this.

这也没错。

And it's okay.

他们会一遍遍重复这句话。

They'll repeat that.

还会把这话原封不动地讲给所有人听。

They'll regurgitate that to everybody.

但他们根本不懂这些规则背后的真正用意。

But they don't understand the spirit of the rules.

他们根本不懂这条规则为什么存在。

They don't understand why that rule is there.

他们也不知道该怎么为它辩护。

They don't understand how to defend it.

当一个压力爆表的项目经理，被项目逼到极限后突然反问你：我凭什么非得按你的来？

So when some very stressed out project manager who's been pushed to their limits for their project suddenly snaps back at you, why the hell should I do it your way?

当这些流程毫无意义，没人关注，也不在乎这部分工作，又没人能提出异议——因为他们从来没静下心来认真想过这些流程的意义。

When it's pointless and people don't look at it and they don't look at this piece of the work and they don't care, and they've got no way to push back against that because they never sat there and thought it through.

我们到底为什么要这么做？

Why do we really do this?

这种盲目遵从流程的做法，对PMO来说尤其危险，因为你总得不断去解释和捍卫这些规定。

And and this blind adherence to the process is one of the greatest dangers a PMO in particular could ever have because you're constantly going to be called on to defend these things.

而像我这样亲手交付过项目的人，至少有实际经验，能明白：在我身上，这些经验真的帮了大忙。

And as somebody who's maybe delivered a project, you'll at least have some lived experience, and you'll understand, well, in my case, that really helped me.

我当初为什么需要一份干系人档案？

Why did I need a stakeholder profile?

对我来说，真正有帮助的是去仔细想想这些人到底是谁。

Well, it really helped me to try to focus in on who these people are.

只是为了走个过场，好通过阶段评审吗？

Is it a tick boxing exercise so I can get through a stage gate?

确实也有这层意思。

It's that as well.

有时候吧。

Sometimes.

也许对某些从来没做过这事的PMO来说是这样，但对我而言，这特别有启发。

Maybe to some PMO who's never had to do this before, but for me, this is really insightful.

它让我彻底了解了这些人，也决定了我该怎么跟他们打交道。

This tells me everything I need to know about these and informs how I'm going to interact with them.

所以你得从这个角度去看。

So you have to see it that way.

你得明白，你做的每一件事，背后真正的理由和价值是什么。

You to understand the true reason and the benefit for every part of what you're doing.

所以光死守你学过的那些规则是不够的。

So just being adherent to the rules that you've learned isn't sufficient.

其次，我有点自以为是了，总觉得我懂最佳实践，只要有人问‘为啥非得按你的方法来’，我就甩出‘这是最佳实践’这句话。

Secondly, I got a little bit pompous, maybe, I just thought well I know best practice and I will invoke the words this is best practice every time somebody comes along and says well why should I do it your way, because it's best practice.

就像念咒语一样，好像一说‘最佳实践’，事情就自动解决了。

Like their magic words, like abracadabra.

以为只要一提这个词，对方就会立刻改变主意。

It's gonna make this person completely change their mind.

但事实上，效果恰恰相反。

And, yeah, it has the opposite effect.

反而让对方更固执，对你来说有魔力的词，在他们听来毫无意义，你得学会更有说服力的表达。

It will entrench them, and those words of power to you are meaningless to them, and you need to learn better arguments.

书里有两章专门讲我是怎么教一位项目经理改进项目规划的，她看完简直震惊了，因为这个方法让她能把计划表达得清晰多了，之前那套简直一团乱。

And there's two chapters in the book where one where I'm actually showing a project manager how to do project planning better, and it really blows her mind because it helps her to express her plan so much better than it was previously, which is a little bit of a mess.

她后来就说，每个人都该这么干。

And she says, everyone should do it this way.

所以下一章讲的是我努力让大家照这种方式去做。

So the following chapter is me trying to get everyone to do it that way.

但结果并不顺利。

It does not go well.

我喜欢这一点，因为确实如此——教科书里的项目看起来井井有条，可现实中却一团乱麻。我很欣赏那种‘这是最佳实践’的说法，其实就是‘因为我让你这么干’，但正如你所说，这种话根本说服不了人。后来我才明白，和人合作、打交道，本质上就是一种协商，你得学会说服别人，也要愿意接纳别人的想法，说不定人家的点子真不错。

I like that because it's so true that projects look so tidy in a textbook, and in real life, they're very messy and then I love that sort of well, it's best practicing which is basically like saying because I told you to do it that way which of course doesn't land like you say and then realizing again, coming back to that, you know, working collaborating with people and humans like everything is a bit of negotiation and like what you said, you do need to persuade people to do a thing and you need to be willing to entertain somebody else's idea that actually might be a really good one.

那时候我就觉得自己是《PMBOK》第五版的铁粉。

And that's what I found at the time and I'm like, you know, pinbok fifth edition guy.

对吧？

Right?

当时我就觉得，我根本没工具能应对这种情况。

So, like, at the time, I was like, I don't really have a tool for that.

我该怎么判断哪些地方能改，哪些地方不能碰，才不会影响整个项目？

How do I then go and know what I can change and what I, you know, and what I can't change to not impact the rest of the project?

现在呢，大家越来越多地讨论如何灵活调整方法论，用更弹性的方式做事。

Now, you know, there's more dialogue about tailoring, you know, methodologies, and, you know, doing things in a more flexible way.

但那时候我就是想不通，听起来挺有道理，可这跟你所说的最佳实践并不一致。

But at the time, was just like it didn't compute, and I was like, well, that does sound reasonable, but it's not, as you say, best practice.

对吧？

Right?

这招能行得通吗？

Like, is this gonna go?

是的。

Yeah.

确实如此。

It's true.

有时候你会发现，达成同一个目标其实有两种不同的方法，最后你可能会把它们结合起来，或者更偏向其中一种。

And the thing is sometimes you'll learn there are two different ways to achieve the goal that you want, and you'll end up merging them perhaps, or you'll do one more than the other.

这样一来，你就得在某些方面做出让步。

And that will mean you're compromising on something.

但只要你明白这些方法背后的原理和机制，至少你能清楚自己在做选择时放弃了什么。

But if you understand the why and the mechanics of those things, at least you'll know what you're giving up when you make that choice.

你会意识到自己留下了哪些空白，甚至可能找到办法来弥补它们。

You'll know what gaps you're leaving, and maybe you'll even find ways to compensate for them.

几年前流行过一个词，叫项目交付方式要有弹性，意思是你能更灵活地应对不同类型、不同方式的项目，这对组织来说是个优势。

There was a little bit of a buzz word few years ago about having elasticity in your project delivery method where you can essentially, you're more flexible and more able to do different types of projects and in different ways, and that's considered to be a benefit to your organisation.

没错。

It's true.

确实如此。

It is true.

但同样，如果没有理解这些做法背后的重要性，以及它们真正想达成的目标，而只是换了一条完全不同的路线，那也没用。

But again, having that elasticity without understanding why things are important and what they're truly trying to do, rather than just it's a different roadmap entirely.

这一点非常关键。

That's really important.

如果不花点心思去思考，你就会偏离重点。

Miss the point if you don't invest a little bit of thought in that.

光靠快速翻一遍教科书，是没法获得这种理解的。

And flying through a textbook isn't going to give you that necessarily.

也许吧。

It might do.

确实有不少很好的教材，但我建议你也要留点时间静下心来消化所学的内容，别光为了考试死记硬背，关键是要真正理解。

There's some very good textbooks out there, but I'd suggest that you need some reflective time as well to really absorb what you're taking in and not just cram for the exam, know, just try to understand it.

要弄清楚为什么。

Try to understand the why.

我喜欢这句话。

I like that.

再者，找个导师也很有帮助，这样你有个可以倾诉和探讨的对象，能更深入地理解这些道理。

And again, another sort of for a mentor as well where you actually could have a sounding board for some of these things to better understand why.

你刚才说的那番话让我特别有共鸣，我觉得特别重要。

You said something that really resonated with me that I think is important.

你说过，在一个从没管过项目的项目管理办公室里，人们可能根本想不到项目实际有多混乱，需要多少灵活应对和协商，根本不是教科书里那种井然有序的样子。

You said, in the context of a PMO who's never run a project, that it might not occur to them how these things go, how messy they are, how much we need to flex and negotiate and it's not so tidy.

我觉得，这一点几乎每个人都该有所体会。

I think that is actually something that almost everybody should gain an appreciation of.

至于你之前提到的，也许不一定要亲自带项目，只要参与其中，亲眼看看项目实际有多混乱、有多不完美，就够了。

And to your earlier point, maybe not just by leading projects, maybe just by being part of them and, you know, seeing how they are actually not tidy and not perfect.

我有个想法，想跟你探讨一下。

But I've got this theory I wanted to test with you.

我的观点是，迟早每个人都会被要求去领导一个项目。

This theory that sooner or later, everyone is going to be asked to lead a project.

我的依据都是个人观察，我也知道你可能会说，其实每个人多多少少都带过项目了。

And, you know, my evidence is anecdotal and I'm sure you could argue that maybe everyone has led a project in some way shape or form.

但我也在观察整个市场正在发生的巨大变化——比如人工智能、宏观经济、地缘政治这些因素，感觉项目正成为企业应对这些变化的关键抓手。

But I'm also looking at all this change in the marketplace in response to things like AI, to macroeconomics, to geopolitics, And it seems like projects are that growth lever that are helping businesses and organizations keep pace with all this change.

我的判断是，项目数量会越来越多。

And my theory is that projects are gonna grow in number.

项目会变得更复杂，团队也会由各种不同背景的跨职能人才组成，这些专家现在都配备了AI等技术工具，能让他们更快地工作。

They're gonna increase in complexity and they're gonna be staffed by a wide variety of cross functional talents, you know, subject matter experts who are all gonna be armed with technology right now, namely AI that helps them work fast.

这会让沟通变得更加棘手。

It's gonna make the communication more complicated.

这会让事情的分量重得多。

It's gonna make the stakes much higher.

我想问你的是，这种无意中或非正式地成为项目负责人的现象，是不是正逐渐从偶然变成未来所有专业人士的必经之路？

And my question to you is, is perhaps this notion of accidentally or informally becoming the project manager starting to be actually less of an accident and more of a rite of passage for all professionals going forward?

这对他们只有好处。

Well, it wouldn't hurt them.

我之前说过，这是一种非常实用的可迁移技能，掌握了项目管理能力，他们在这些领域成功的几率会大得多。

As I said earlier, this is a very, very useful transferable skill, and they'll have a much greater chance of succeeding in all of those endeavors by having useful project management skills.

现在放眼整个世界，要保持乐观真的很难，除非你正好在运营一家人工智能初创公司。

People look at the world at the moment, it's hard to feel optimistic, unless you happen to be running an AI startup.

其他人呢？你看到的是地缘政治动荡、国家层面的不稳、自我认同的困惑、人工智能，还有各种各样的问题。

Everyone else, you're seeing there's, say, geopolitical instability, national instability, questions of self and identity, AI, and all these things.

我以前有个上司，可惜他已经不在了。

I had a manager who, sadly, he's not with us anymore.

他几年前不幸去世了，我和他其实并不算特别熟。

He unfortunately passed away a few years ago, and I didn't know him particularly well.

但有一次，我们一起去吃早午餐，他跟我分享了这个观点。

But on one occasion, we went for brunch, and he gave me this perspective.

我不清楚他是从哪儿得来的，但就凭这句话，我会记他一辈子——你总是被扑面而来的各种信息搞得心烦意乱。

I don't know where he picked it up from, but I'll remember him for the rest of my life for this, which was you get distracted by all these things coming at you so fast.

就像每天看新闻头条，你多半会感到沮丧。

It's like you look at the headlines of the news every day and you'll feel a certain negative way usually.

退一步想想。

Take a step back.

上个月的头条是什么？

What was the headline for the month?

再退远一点，今年的头条又是什么？

Take a bigger step back, what's the headline for the year?

如果每年只能选一个最重要的头条，它是说事情在变好，还是在变糟？

If there's one headline every year, is it saying that things are getting better or is it things are getting worse?

如果确实在变糟，那真的是每况愈下吗？

And if things are getting worse, is it entirely worse?

还是说其中也藏着机会呢？

Or are there opportunities in there as well?

里面有没有什么积极的一面？

Is there something good in there?

继续保持这种宏观的视角。

And keep taking that distant view.

那时候，这番话真的让我振作了起来。

And at the time that really lifted my spirits.

我跟他吃早午餐的时候，正是我们刚从新冠疫情中缓过来的时候。

We were just coming out of COVID actually when I had that brunch with him.

这句话一直留在我心里。

That one stayed with me.

所以我后来也试着用这种抽离的视角来看问题。

So I tried to take that step back view.

当你被这些外界因素搅得心烦意乱时，就反复提醒自己这么做。

And when you are feeling a little bit distracted by all of those external factors, just keep doing that.

就算今年过得不好，整个十年大概也没那么糟。

Even if this year has been a bad year, the whole decade most likely hasn't.

整个世纪更不是这样。

The whole century hasn't.

所以再往后退一步看看。

So take a nerve of a step back.

明白了。

Okay.

我们可能只是处在低谷。

We might be in a dip.

情况总会好起来的。

Things will improve.

我很喜欢这种宏观的视角，说实话，我觉得这跟一个观点是一致的：只要你职业生涯中有机会带一个项目，你就会学到关于领导力、商业和人际交往的很多东西。

I like that sort of zooming out perspective, and honestly, I think it ties into the idea that, yes, if you are given the opportunity to lead a project at any point in your career, you're going to learn things about leadership, about business, about people.

但同时我也觉得，你还能学到很多韧性方面的本事。

But also just there, I think it's also true that you'll learn some resiliency skills.

也许算不上韧性大师，但听你这么一说，我真觉得项目本来就是这样。

Maybe not a master of resilience, but definitely when you're describing that, I'm like, that's also how projects go.

对吧？

Right?

每天推进的时候，都觉得特别煎熬。

You know, like day by day, it feels like a slog.

总会遇到一些特别糟心的时刻。

There's some terrible moments.

可要是往后退一步看，就会发现，虽然中间那段特别难，但开头我们其实走得挺稳的。

When you zoom out, you're like, okay, well, there was this terrible section but we started off on the right foot.

最后大概也会有个不错的收尾。

We'll probably end on the on the right foot.

再往远了看，你就会想，我们到底在忙些什么？

Zoom out even further and you're like, what are we doing here actually?

但其实我们是在改善生活——哪怕只是给客服系统里那个自动回复邮件，让客户知道他们的投诉不是石沉大海，而是真的有人在处理。

And we're like improving lives even if it's that, you know, auto email responder for a complaint in a customer support portal that's improving someone's life, you know, realizing that they didn't just check a ticket into a a black hole never to be seen again.

这其实是在建立一种对话，就连对范围的误解，反而还让客户关系变得更好了。

It's establishing this dialogue and then, you know, even the sort of misunderstanding of scope was actually building better relationships with customers.

你一直往外看，再往外看，再往外看，就会发现，没错，我们确实在通过项目取得进展。

And you keep zooming out, zooming out, zooming out, you're like, actually, yeah, We're making progress through projects.

这是我从项目管理的角度来看的。

That's me as my with my project management lens.

项目确实在改变世界，而且我真的觉得这是事实。

Projects are changing the world, but genuinely, I do think that's true.

我觉得这种视角特别好，如果有机会带一个项目，真该好好抓住。

And I think that's a really good perspective to look at it from and to actually embrace an opportunity if given the chance to lead a project.

哪怕你是个副总裁，第一次带项目，这些道理也完全适用。

Even if you are a VP and you're leading your first project, all of these things still apply.

对吧？

Right?

停下来，对齐目标，有合适的机会就大胆提出来。

It's like pause, align, you know, push back where there are opportunities to push back.

想想最终的目标是什么。

Think about what the outcome is.

为这个目标发声。

Advocate for that.

和你的团队协商。

Negotiate with your team.

支持你的团队。

Support your team.

确保目标切实可行，这样我们才能实现它们。

Make sure that they are realistic so that we can achieve these goals.

当然，有些日子会比其他日子好过，但这一路上你会学到很多。

And yeah, some days are gonna be better than others, but you're gonna learn so much along the way.

也许别一个人硬撑，找个导师吧。

And maybe don't do it alone, maybe find a mentor.

说到韧性，顺便提一句，这里有个重要的面试建议。

Speaking of resilience, by the way, here's a major job interview tip.

如果你去参加一个PMO岗位的面试，面试官第一个问题就是：你能说说你什么时候展现过韧性吗？

If ever you find yourself in a job interview for a PMO role, and the very first question in the interview is, can you tell me about a time you've had to be resilient?

那这可能就是个信号，说明你即将进入的环境是什么样的。

Maybe just take that as a hint as to what kind of environment you're heading into.

这确实没错，毕竟这份工作不容易，但很有成就感。

Which is fair, know, it's not easy work, it's rewarding.

我觉得这话挺中肯的。

I think that's fair.

有时候是这样。

Sometimes.

有时候是这样。

Sometimes.

是的。

Yeah.

说到这点，有时候工作环境真的特别压抑，得留心那些危险的信号。

And to your point, sometimes it's totally toxic and just watch out for the red flags.

好的。

Okay.

有时候你需要退一步。

Sometimes you need to step back.

你需要把眼光放得更长远，超过一年以上。

You need to zoom out more than a year.

对。

Yeah.

要把视野扩展到你当前这家公司之外。

Zoom out beyond your current employer.

我想我们能不能最后聊聊未来的事？

I wonder if we can round out just by talking about the future.

你之前在休息室跟我提过，你的人生和PM职业即将迎来一些转变。

You had mentioned something to me in the green room that you're gonna be making a bit of a shift in your life and in your PM career.

书出版之后，除了写续集，你接下来有什么打算？能跟我们说说你为什么要做这个改变吗？

Can you tell us about what you're planning to do next now that the book is out other than moving on to the sequel and maybe why you're making that change?

是的。

Yeah.

我目前正在计划离开英国，搬到阿联酋，可能是阿布扎比，但更可能是迪拜。

I'm currently planning to leave The United Kingdom to move to The UAE, either to Abu Dhabi or to, most likely, Dubai.

这个计划我从去年年底就开始考虑了，现在我已经拿到了阿联酋的签证和居留许可。

This was something I was planning since the end of last year, and I now have a visa and residency for UAE.

现在我走进他们的机场都不用跟任何人打招呼，AI摄像头一识别我就知道我是合法居民，直接放行。

So I can just stroll through their airport now without even talking to anybody because the AI cameras will detect me and will recognize me as a good resident, and I'm allowed in.

简直像在澳大利亚一样。

Literally Australian.

那边的世界真的完全不一样。

It's a different world out there, honestly.

完全是另一种感觉。

It's something else.

我打算在那里成立一个项目管理办公室和保障咨询公司，帮助机构先明确项目中真正该优先推进的工作，再通过有效的保障机制把它们守护好。

But my goal there is to set up a PMO and assurance consultancy service over there, helping organizations to, firstly, to prioritize the kind of work that they need to really be doing in their project space and then to protecting it with effective assurance.

所以，没错，这事儿挺大的。

So, yeah, it's big.

风险很高。

Big risk.

最近两三个月伊朗局势的变化，显然也影响了这一点。

And obviously, the events of the last two or three months with the the Iran war has had an impact on that.

我能说什么呢？

But what can I say?

说到地缘政治，我最近才意识到，我根本猜不准。

When it comes to geopolitics, I've come to realize recently I am the worst at predicting geopolitics.

我昨天还跟一个采访者聊过这事。

I was talking to a interviewer the day about this.

我每次都猜错。

I get them all wrong.

说实话，我之前真信了他们说的那些大规模杀伤性武器的借口。

Honestly, I believed in the weapons of mass destruction story of why they're acting.

我真觉得我们该干预利比亚，也该干预叙利亚。

I really thought we needed to intervene in Libya, thought we needed to intervene in Syria.

我从来没想过俄罗斯会再次入侵乌克兰。

I never thought that Russia was going to go into Ukraine again.

我当时想，伊朗这事肯定一周内就结束了。

And, you know, I thought, well, no, Iran, the whole thing will be over in a week.

所以这次我不会再做任何预测了。

So I'm not going to make any predictions on this.

显然，这根本不是我的专长。

This is not my area of expertise, clearly.

也许我总是按事情该怎样来判断，而不是按实际情况来看，我不确定，但我确实不擅长预测这些。

Perhaps I judge things on what they should be rather than what they shouldn't be, I don't know, but I'm not very good at predicting that.

但就目前情况来看，我在冲突期间去过迪拜，那里的人们生活基本照常，只是偶尔会拉警报，有时还能看到天上飞过极快的东西。

But as things currently stand, I have been to Dubai during the conflict, and they seem to be going on with life as normal, with the exception of every now and again having an alert and sometimes seeing something flying through the sky very fast above them.

我对这个地区还是持乐观态度的，其中一个最重要的原因，就是希望我的孩子能安全，也有好的未来。

I'm optimistic for the region, and one of the biggest drivers for me is safety for my children and their prospects as well.

从项目角度来看，这个地区最吸引我的地方，也是我最看重的一点，就是几乎我过去十年参与的每一个项目，核心都是提升效率。

And from a project perspective, what is really enticing about the area, and this is perhaps the biggest draw for me, almost every project I've been involved with, I'd say certainly for the last decade, has been focused on efficiency.

我们还能不能再从这一英镑里挤出一便士来？

And can we squeeze another penny out of this pound?

那边关注的却是增长和扩张，想着去干点疯狂的大事。

Over there, the focus is on growth and expansion and let's go and do this crazy thing.

你懂的吧？

Like you know?

他们在那边建了一座靠场面撑起来的城市。

They built a city on spectacle over there.

现在他们开始考虑怎么把整座城整合起来。

Now they're thinking about trying to integrate the whole city.

因为目前交通问题太严重了，我觉得他们根本没想到会这么快就这么成功。

Because at the moment, they've got all these traffic problems and because I I think they didn't expect it to be so successful so fast.

所以他们正拼命加快建设社区，好跟上发展的步伐。

So they're trying to build communities fast enough to keep up.

长辈们决定在那里建一座新机场，建成后单是机场本身就能提供四十万个就业岗位。

The the elders decided they're gonna build a new airport there that's gonna the the airport on its own, when it's opened, is going to employ 400,000 people.

真惊人。

Wow.

我懂，对吧。

I know.

这简直相当于一座城市了，是不是？

That's a city in its own right, isn't it?

没错。

Right.

那边的人就是有这种雄心和干劲。

It's the ambition and the drive over there.

我去过那里，见到了当地的项目专业人士，还结识了一群非常出色的项目团队，还有不少创业者，都在努力追求成功。

And when I've been there and I've met the people who are there, project professionals, I met some people from a really nice project community over there as well, And just entrepreneurs, people who are just trying to make a success.

那种积极的态度简直具有感染力。

Such a positive attitude to the point that it's infectious.

就像我之前说的，多和你想成为的那种人在一起，你也会慢慢变成那样。

And then as I said before, surround yourself with people that you want to be like, and you'll be more like that.

所以，保持乐观，追求成长，拥抱冒险。

So optimism, growth, adventure.

现在这个阶段，也许吧，我特别期待下一次冒险。

At this point in my life, maybe, you know, I'm looking forward to that next adventure.

瞧好了。

There go.

希望这一次能成功。

Hopefully, that'll be a successful one.

这肯定是一场项目，哪怕没人这么说过。

And, yes, it will be a project even though nobody said it was.

就是这样。

There you go.

就是这样。

There you go.

我的意思是，这对我来说就是个证明：如果你有机会当上项目经理，并且干得出色，迟早你能挑项目，而不必非得做那些枯燥又耗人的运营效率改造。

I mean, you know, that's evidence to me that if you have the opportunity to start being a project manager and get really good at it, eventually you get to pick the projects and it doesn't have to be the, you know, maybe boring soul sucking operational efficiency transformations.

其实世界上有很多项目是在创造全新的东西，推动创新、改善生活，任何职业阶段的人，只要成为项目经理或开始带项目，都能投身到这样的工作中。

It, you know, there's projects out there creating net new things, driving innovation and improving lives and that is something that folks anywhere in their career who become a project manager or who start leading projects can get themselves stuck into as well.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思不是说完全否定这一点。

I mean, don't get me wrong.

做效率类项目，也还是有让人兴奋的地方，还是有值得投入的亮点。

With efficiency based projects, there's still something to get excited about, and there's still things to be interested in.

但我的职业生涯里一直缺的，可能是这本书能帮我弥补一点的就是那种能持续留下遗产的长期项目。

But what's been missing from my career so far, maybe the book itself might contribute a little bit towards filling this gap for me, is the ongoing legacy project.

我曾经申请加入伦敦奥运会的项目团队，但那时候我入行太早了。

I applied to be a part of the London Olympics project team, but I was too early in my career at the time.

连那封拒信都没人回我。

I didn't even get a reply to that line of rejection.

我真觉得自己错过了这个机会，毕竟我在伦敦有这么深的根基。

And I really felt that I missed out on that because I had a quite a legacy in London.

本来我不想满世界追着奥运会跑，结果接下来冒出来的是筹建一家新银行的项目，但最后这项目黄了。

And, you know, rather than just go chasing Olympics around the world of flying, the next thing that came along was the creation of a new bank, and that project ended up being canceled.

就是我之前提到的那个，有人直接说不行。

That was the one where that where I mentioned earlier where somebody just said, no.

太难了，我们不干了。

It's too difficult.

结果所有人都撤了。

We're walking away, and then everybody got leg up.

我就想要这样的一个能留下遗产的项目。

So I want that kind of a legacy project.

在那之前，我只能靠写书了。

And until then, it's gonna have to be the books.

书得成为我的遗产，或者我的YouTube频道，但主要是书。

The books are gonna have to be my legacy or my YouTube channel, but especially the books.

就是这样。

There you go.

我喜欢这种想要有所作为的劲头，还有那种在每个机会里都能找到亮点的乐观态度，直到找到真正让你热血沸腾的事。

I like that sort of drive to make a difference and honestly, the optimism too of just finding silver lining in every opportunity until you find the ones that you're really passionate about.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Absolutely.

我觉得这种心态对我们这个行业特别重要，因为坏日子肯定会来，这是难免的。

And I'd say that's an important mindset for anybody in our profession because you'll get the bad days, but they're they're gonna come along.

你完全可以预料到。

You can count on it.

有个方法，我不确定你有没有听说过。

There's a technique called I don't know if you've heard about this.

叫‘存钱罐’技巧。

The cookie jar technique.

我没听说过。

I haven't.

所以每当有好事发生，比如有人夸你，说你那项工作做得不错，或者在我们的人际关系中，每天都会发生很多互动，成百上千次。

So when something good happens, whenever somebody gives you a compliment or says, well done on that piece of work, or you have in all of our relationships, we have multiple transactions, hundreds of them every day.

当这些互动顺利时，当你收到正面反馈，就把它记下来。

And when they go well, when you get that positive one, make a note of it somewhere.

找个地方记录下来，因为当糟糕的一天来临时，你就能从这个‘饼干罐’里拿出一条，提醒自己。

Keep track of it somewhere, because when that miserable day comes along, can then reach into the cookie jar and you can take one of those I see.

这不是你对着镜子强行给自己灌输的空洞鼓励，而是别人真实给你的肯定。

It's not some bizarre affirmation you're making into the mirror to telling yourself that you you are a good person, it's somebody else's share that.

这是一种实实在在的成就，你可以指着它说：没错，我今天状态确实不好，但你看，我之前还做过这些事，要不是翻了翻‘饼干罐’，我都忘了。

There's a success that you can point and say, yeah, you know what, I'm having a bad day on this at the moment but look what I accomplished before, which I completely forgot about until I just filled the cookie jar.

我喜欢这个说法。

I like that.

说得对。

There you go.

斯图尔特，非常感谢你今天抽出时间跟我聊。

Stuart, thank you so much for spending the time with me today.

如果有人想更多地了解你、你的书或者你的YouTube频道，他们该去哪里呢？

For folks who wanna learn more about you, your book, your YouTube channel, where can they go?

好的。

Okay.

书的话可以在亚马逊上找到，叫《成为项目经理》。

Amazon for the book, Becoming The Project Manager.

我有一个YouTube频道，现在叫Stuart Taylor项目管理。

I've got a YouTube channel, which is now called Stuart Taylor Project Management.

如果你在伦敦或迪拜想找我合作，可以访问influentialpmo.com。

And if you're thinking about working with me in London or Dubai, go to influentialpmo.com.

我经常在领英上活跃。

And I'm on LinkedIn all the time.

当然了。

Yeah, of course.

是的

Yeah.

就是这样

There you go.

没错

Yes.

是的

Yeah.

所以，再次恭喜你出书了

So, you know, again, congrats on the book.

这本书在很多畅销项目管理书籍榜单上都名列前茅

It's been topping a lot of lists of best selling project management books.

祝你在迪拜一切顺利，也谢谢你分享这些见解

Good luck to you in Dubai, and thank you for sharing your insights.

非常感谢你

Thank you so much.

和你聊天真的非常愉快。

It's been a real pleasure to talk to you.

好了，各位。

Alright, folks.

今天的《数字项目经理》播客就到这里了。

That's it for today's episode of the Digital Project Manager podcast.

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If you enjoyed this conversation, make sure to subscribe wherever you're listening.

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下次再见，感谢收听。

Until next time, thanks for listening.