身为LGBTQ群体

你好。

Hello.

我是BBC全球服务的詹姆斯·雷诺兹，这里是BBC地球对话系列，主题是关于LGBT群体。

I'm James Reynolds on the BBC World Service, and this is BBC Earth conversations on being LGBT.

最近几周，社会对LGBT群体的态度关注度显著提升，这在很大程度上得益于关于卡塔尔世界杯的讨论。

Attitudes towards LGBT people have been under increased focus in recent weeks, thanks in large part to debates about the Qatar World Cup.

这促使我们向全球这一群体的成员征集他们的经历，包括来自威胁以及出柜过程中的种种挑战。

It led us to ask members of this community across the globe to share their experiences from threats to the challenges of coming out.

我那小小的自由派会众成员们感到非常不安。

People in my little liberal congregation were deeply uncomfortable.

我说，我们不希望被称为一个有同性恋拉比的同性恋会堂，他们问我是否能不再谈论这件事。

I said, we don't want to be known as a gay synagogue with a gay rabbi, and they asked if I'd stop talking about it.

我说，不行。

And I said, no.

我无法停止谈论这件事。

I can't stop talking about it.

我不能再回到柜子里了。

Can't put myself back in the closet.

如果你和我一样正在观看卡塔尔男子世界杯，你会意识到这远不止是足球比赛。

If, like me, you're watching the men's World Cup in Qatar, you'll be aware that it has been about much more than just football.

它还充满了政治和社会议题，比如几天前有抗议者冲上球场，他T恤上的信息呼吁关注伊朗女性权利和乌克兰战争。

It's also heavily loaded with politics and social issues, such as the protester running onto the pitch during one game a few days ago with messages on his T shirt highlighting concern about women's rights in Iran and the war in Ukraine.

他还挥舞着彩虹旗，支持LGBTQ权利。

He was also waving a rainbow flag in support of LGBTQ rights.

在卡塔尔，同性行为根据伊斯兰教法被视为不道德。

In Qatar, homosexual acts are considered immoral under Islamic Sharia law.

惩罚包括罚款、最高七年的监禁，甚至石刑处死。

Punishments include fines, prison sentences of up to seven years, and even death by stoning.

我的同事卡尼·夏普召集了三位因本国对性取向的态度而更愿意生活在海外的人。

My colleague, Carney Sharp, brought together three people who, because of their country's attitudes towards their sexuality, feel more comfortable living abroad.

他们分别是来自伊斯坦布尔、正在英国求学的列凡塞，以及俄罗斯的阿洛娜。

They are Levanse from Istanbul who's studying here in The UK, and Alona is Russian.

尽管她目前在莫斯科，但她现在住在土耳其。

Although she's currently in Moscow, she now lives in Turkey.

如果你在俄罗斯公开自己的LGBT身份，可能会遭受羞辱。

If you're open about your identity in Russia as an LGBT person, you can be humiliated.

人们可能会对你非常具有攻击性。

People can be really aggressive to you.

他们可能会辱骂你。

They can call you names.

他们可能会给你难看的眼神。

They can give you nasty looks.

他们甚至可能对你进行身体攻击。

And they even can be physically aggressive to you.

我是一名双性恋女性，人们对我不像对男同性恋那样具有攻击性，但公开身份仍然很危险。

I'm a bisexual woman and people tend to be, to me, not so aggressive that they are to gay men, but it's still dangerous to be open.

你能举一些同性恋群体中发生过的例子吗？

Can you give me examples of what happened to people from the gay community?

比如，如果我在街上牵着伴侣的手，人们可能会叫我变态。

If I'm, for example, I'm holding hands with my partner on the street, people can call me a pervert.

他们可能会试图触碰我。

They can try to touch me.

他们可能会对我无礼。

They can be rude with me.

他们可能会出言攻击。

They can be vocally aggressive.

而且，是的，如果我试图亲吻我的伴侣，他们可能会对我施以暴力。

And, yes, if I'm, for example, I'm I try to kiss my partner, they can be physically aggressive.

他们可能会试图打我。

They can try to beat me.

阿洛娜，你见过这些事情发生吗？

Have you seen any of this happening, Alona?

是的。

Yeah.

我见过这种事情发生在男同性恋身上。

I've seen it happening to gay men.

对于女性，人们通常会更温和一些。

To women, people usually are more soft.

但是，是的，我见过有人试图在同性恋情侣牵手时把她们分开。

But, yeah, I saw people trying to disconnect lesbian couple from each other when they're holding hands, for example.

这发生在莫斯科吗？

And this is in Moscow?

是的。

Yes.

甚至在莫斯科也是如此。

Even in Moscow.

莫斯科是个进步的、现代化的城市。

And Moscow is the progressive, like, modern city.

如果你在某个小城镇，公开表达可能会更危险。

If you are, for example, in some small town, it can be more dangerous to be open.

莱万特，你在听吗？

Levante, you're listening to this.

我想知道你能否回应阿洛娜的说法，并分享一下你在土耳其的亲身经历？

I wonder if you could pick up on what Alona says and perhaps tell us about your own experience in Turkey.

社会已经朝着积极的方向变化，但政府从2015年开始攻击LGBTI+群体。

Society has changed in a positive way, but the government started to attack the LGBTI plus community in 2015.

他们首先禁止了伊斯坦布尔骄傲游行。

They first banned the Istanbul Pride March.

政府公然攻击LGBTI+群体，完全不考虑任何尊重。

The government attacks LGBTI plus community explicitly without considering any respect at all.

因此，我可以说，如今土耳其政府对LGBTI+群体持敌对态度。

So I could say the government is hostile to the LGBTI plus community in Turkey now.

但总体而言，你是否安全，完全取决于你的生活环境、居住地、朋友、家人、社会阶层、种族背景或宗教背景。

But in general, if you are safe or not, it totally depends on your environment, where you live, and your friends and and your family, your social class, your ethnic background, or your religious background.

如果你生活在安卡拉、伊兹密尔、伊斯坦布尔这样的大城市，情况会比其他省份好一些。

If you live in big cities like Ankara, Izmir, Istanbul, it is better than other provinces.

我坦率直言。

I'm open.

我完全公开，因为2014年我发了一条关于LGBTI权利的推文，结果被所有人起诉了。

I'm totally open, actually, public because everyone sued me in 2014 because of a tweet about the LGBTI rights.

所以我不得不公开出柜，从报纸到电视媒体，所有人都知道了。

So I had to come out to everyone, like, publicly from newspapers to the television channel.

我是个活动家，所以早有心理准备。

I'm an activist, so I was expecting that.

对我来说这并不难。

So it was not hard for me.

阿洛娜，对你来说，嗯。

Alona, for you Mhmm.

那么，你现在的土耳其经历与俄罗斯相比如何？

How does your experience then in Turkey now compare to that of Russia?

我觉得更好一些，但取决于你住在哪个地区。

I think it's better, but it depends on what area are you staying in.

我住在奥尔塔科伊。

I'm staying in Ortakoy.

也许列万知道那里在哪里。

Maybe Levan know where it is.

是的。

Yeah.

奥尔塔科伊。

Ortakoy.

是的。

Yeah.

我感觉那里很安全，因为那里有很多游客，而且位于城市的欧洲一侧。

I feel safe there because there are many tourists there and it's European side of the city.

我看到街上有很多同性恋者，他们非常开放。

I see gay people on the streets, and they are pretty open.

但我明白，如果我搬到城市其他更保守的区域，公开身份可能会对我构成危险。

But I understand that if I'm moving to some other area of the city, more conservative, it can be dangerous for me to be open.

当然，在英国做同性恋和在土耳其做同性恋完全是两回事。

Of course, it is totally different being gay in The UK from being gay to in Turkey.

我显然不能在街上亲吻一个男人。

I couldn't kiss a man in in the in the street, apparently.

但在这里，

But here,

我可以。

I can.

而且我这样做时不会遭到攻击或骚扰。

And then I do that without being attacked or without being harassed.

但在土耳其，是的，这取决于你住在哪里，就像阿洛娜说的。

But but in Turkey, yeah, it depends on where you live, as Alona said.

但英国这里的每个人都能接受你是同性恋这个事实吗？

But is everyone here in The UK tolerant of the fact that you are gay?

不能。

No.

不。

No.

当然不是。

Of course not.

我的意思是，法律上根本无法相提并论。

I mean, legally, it's not comparable.

这关乎社会。

It's about society.

顺便说一下，我曾在苏格兰的邓迪，从未见过任何针对LGBTI群体、在街上牵手或接吻的同性恋者的攻击或骚扰。

I was in Scotland, by the way, and in Dundee, I had never seen any attack or any harassment towards LGBTI people, gay people who are walking hand by hand or kissing each other in the streets.

但我认识一些伦敦的朋友，他们在伦敦街头走路时曾遭到骚扰。

But I know some friends from London who were harassed walking in a street in London.

我想播放一下我们收到的一位波兰同性恋者发来的信息。

I want to play the both of your message that we received from someone who is gay in Poland.

我们来听一下。

Let's take a listen.

我叫维克托里·马格内谢夫斯卡，是一名来自波兰的酷儿活动家。

My name is Viktori Magneszewska, and I'm a queer activist from Poland.

自2019年以来，我一直为波兰的LGBTQ权利而奋斗，那时公众话语中对LGBTQ群体的言论开始发生变化。

I've been fighting for LGBTQ rights in Poland since 2019, around the time when rhetoric towards the LGBTQ community changed in public discourse.

总统安吉·杜达声称，他们试图让我们相信，那些人——也就是LGBTQ群体——是普通人，但实际上这仅仅是一种意识形态。

President Angie Duda claimed they're trying to convince us that those, meaning the LGBTQ community, are people when in fact it's just an ideology.

甚至教育部长普雷米斯·卡内克也表示，他们并不等同于正常人。

And even minister of education, premise of Carnek, stated they are not equal to normal people.

目前，我们不仅被描绘成一种意识形态，更被当作一种外部威胁，似乎正在危及国家、宗教和价值观。

Currently, we are not only being painted as an ideology, but as an external threat that is somehow threatening the country, its religion, and values.

全国范围内出现了所谓的‘无LGBT区’。

LGBT free zones appeared across the country.

最近，极右翼活动人士试图禁止LGBT旗帜以及骄傲游行的举办。

Recently, far right activists tried to ban even the LGBT flag and the organization of pride marches.

我自己曾在华沙街头与一位男性朋友同行时遭遇了身体暴力，当时他涂了口红。

I myself have experienced physical abuse after walking on the streets of Warsaw with a friend who was male and had a lipstick on.

我在街上被人从垃圾桶里吐口水，还被骂成左翼渣滓。

I have been spit on the street from a trash on and called a leftist scum.

我想知道，阿隆，维多利亚所描述的波兰经历对你来说是否也熟悉。

I wonder, Alone, if that experience that Victoria is speaking about from Poland is familiar to you.

是的。

Yes.

这非常熟悉。

It's very familiar.

这让我想起俄罗斯正在发生的事情，但这里发生的事情更深刻。

It reminds me of what is happening in Russia, but what is happening here is more deep.

它更激进。

It's it's more radical.

一样。

Same.

绝对如此。

Absolutely.

因为政府只是重演了东欧国家或俄罗斯以前对待LGBTI权利的做法。

Because the government just implicate what the Eastern European countries or Russia did before with regard to the LGBTI rights.

让我印象深刻的是这条信息中的这句话。

What struck me in that message was was this line particularly.

它说有一位部长声称LGBTQ人群不如普通人平等。

It says that one of the ministers says said that LGBTQ people are not equal to normal people.

当你听到这样的话，一定很受触动。

When you hear something like that, that must be triggering.

是的。

Yes.

这太可怕了。

It's awful.

这种事让我深感痛心，但你对这种不容忍已经习以为常。

It upsets me to the very core, but you get used to this intolerance.

你对这种侵略、这种仇恨也已经麻木了。

You get used to this aggression, this hatred.

我们的内政部长就在两年前，在推特上称我们为变态。

Our interior minister, just two years ago, called us perverts on Twitter.

变态，字面意思上的变态。

Perverts, literally.

副总统称我们是对土耳其社会的威胁，而总统本人则称我们是背叛传统土耳其家庭价值观的叛徒。

The vice president called us a threat to the Turkish society, and the president himself called us like a traitor to the traditional Turkish family values.

当然，这让我感到不安。

Of course, it disturbs me.

这让每个人都感到不安，当最高政府官员如此言论时，没人会觉得安全。

It disturbs everyone, and no one feels safe when when the top government official talks like that.

你会觉得自己不再属于那里了。

You feel that you don't belong there anymore.

来自土耳其的莱万特和来自俄罗斯的阿洛娜。

Levant from Turkey and Alona from Russia.

你还听到了来自波兰的维多利亚的发言。

You also heard from Victoria in Poland.

最近几天，日本、美国以及新加坡都将在同性婚姻问题上的考量提上了政治和法律议程，其中新加坡刚刚将男性之间的性行为非罪化。

Considerations in respect to same sex marriage have been on the political and legal agenda in recent days in Japan and The United States, as well as Singapore, which has just decriminalized sex between men.

此时值得一提的是，全球有超过60个国家将同性恋行为定为犯罪。

It is perhaps worth noting at this point that more than 60 countries across the globe criminalize homosexuality.

在接下来的对话中，我们邀请了几位在信仰或有组织宗教环境中成长的LGBT群体成员。

For our next conversation, we brought together people among the LGBT community who've been brought up within a faith or organized religion.

西村孝道生活在美國，原籍日本，而日本是七国集团中唯一不承认同性婚姻的国家。

Kodo Nishimura lives in The United States and is originally from Japan, the only g seven nation that doesn't allow same sex marriage.

西村是一位佛教僧侣，自认为是同性恋和非二元性别者，同时也是一位艺术家，著有《这位僧侣穿高跟鞋》一书。

Kodo's a Buddhist monk, identifies as gay and nonbinary, and is also an artist and author of the book, this monk wears heels.

马克·所罗门是犹太人，来自澳大利亚。

Mark Solomon is Jewish and from Australia.

他是一名同性恋拉比，目前正在英国牛津郡参加一场自由派拉比静修会。

He's gay and a rabbi, and he's currently at a liberal rabbi retreat in Oxfordshire here in The UK.

而首先发言的切丽·范是基督徒。

And Cherry Van, who you'll hear from first, is Christian.

她也是威尔士蒙茅斯教区首位女性主教，也是首位公开身份的女同性恋主教。

She's also the first woman and the first openly lesbian bishop of Monmouth, which is in Wales.

我从很小的时候就意识到自己是女同性恋。

I had a sense of being lesbian from a very early age.

我记得妈妈和姑姑曾经聊起过，说总有一天我会结婚生子之类的，但我心里清楚，那永远不会发生。

I can remember stories of my mom and my aunt talking about, you know, one day I will be getting married and having children and all that kind of and I knew in my heart that that wasn't going to be the case.

我的生活总体上平淡无奇，只是我发现自己非常被女性吸引，曾爱上过一两位女性。

My life went on fairly uneventfully, except that, you know, I did find myself being very much attracted to women, to falling in love with one or two.

在教会方面，我本能地觉得必须隐瞒这一切，保持低调，可以说几乎过着双重生活。

And I guess in terms of the church, I instinctively felt the need to keep this under wraps, to keep it quiet, to, I suppose, almost live a parallel life, it ended up feeling like.

后来，在我二十多岁的时候，我强烈感受到召唤，希望在圣公会（当时的英国教会）中接受圣职，并于1989年在曼彻斯特大教堂被按立。

Later on, as I was going through my twenties, I felt a strong call to ordination in the Anglican Church, in the Church of England as it was, and was ordained in Manchester Cathedral in 1989.

我依然过着我所说的双重生活。

Still living what I would describe as a parallel life.

作为同性恋者，你渐渐就习惯了这种状态。

And you kind of get used to that as a a gay and lesbian person.

当时正在就同性关系、婚姻等问题进行辩论。

The debates were going on about same sex relationships, about marriage, and and all that.

尽管我觉得自己有必要参与这些讨论，但我内心却极度害怕被曝光，害怕别人知道真实的我。我越是深入参与这些讨论和辩论，就越害怕被人知道我不仅是个女同性恋者，还处在一段关系中。

And although I felt I needed to be part of those conversations there was a real fear in me of being outed, of being known for who I was, and almost the more exposed I got to the conversations and the debates, the more fearful I became of being known as not just a lesbian but as somebody in a relationship as well.

2019年我当选为蒙茅斯主教时，这一切发生了巨大变化——这种变化是必然的，因为选我的人从一开始就清楚他们选的是谁：一个不仅是女同性恋者、而且处于民事伴侣关系中的人。这件事因此公之于众，上了所有媒体。

And that's changed dramatically when I was elected Bishop of Monmouth in 2019, and it changed because it had to change because the people who elected me knew from the outset that this would be what they were getting somebody who was not just a lesbian but in a civil partnership and so it was out and all over the press.

我必须说，虽然一开始这让我感到不适，但我感受到的只有欢迎。

I have to say that although that was uncomfortable to start with, I felt nothing but welcome.

威尔士教会与英格兰教会的情况不同。

The Church in Wales is in a different place to the Church of England.

威尔士教会认可并庆祝同性恋关系，已通过立法允许在教堂内为这些关系祝福。尽管我们尚未达到在教堂内举行同性婚姻的阶段，但对我来说，这里显然更安全。

It celebrates lesbian and gay relationships, it has passed legislation to allow those relationships to be blessed in church And although we haven't got to the point of allowing same sex marriage in church, it feels a much safer place to be for me.

非常感谢您，主教。

Thank you so much, Bishop.

现在和我一起在演播室的是日本佛教僧人西村孝。

And with me in the studio, Kodo Nishimura, Japanese Buddhist monk.

你刚才听到了主教谈到，多年来他一直过着双重生活。

You heard the Bishop there speaking about having a parallel life for so many years.

你的情况也是这样吗？

Is that how it's been with you?

情况有点不同，因为当我向我的赫蒙族社群出柜时，人们非常欢迎我，甚至为我感到骄傲。

It's a little bit different because I think that when I came out to my Hmong community, people were pretty welcoming and they were kind of proud of me.

他们邀请我分享我的经历。

They invited me to talk about my experiences.

日本佛教联合会资助我印制了彩虹贴纸，可以贴在寺庙门口。

And Japan Buddhist Federation, they funded me to print rainbow sticker, which can be displayed at the temple gates.

他们还在报纸和研讨会上讨论LGBT平等议题。

And they talk about LGBT equality in their newspapers and symposiums.

让我们请犹太教的自由派拉比马克·所罗门谈谈，他正在聆听其他嘉宾的分享，听听他的想法。

Let's bring in rabbi Mark Solomon, a liberal rabbi in the Jewish faith, listening to our other guests, your thoughts.

我的经历与主教的有许多美妙的交集，但也有一些有趣的差异。

There's so many wonderful intersections between my experience and that of the bishop, but also some interesting differences.

我从小在正统犹太教环境中长大，当时同性恋是完全禁忌的话题。

I grew up in the Orthodox Jewish world where, at the time, being gay was utterly taboo.

人们几乎从不谈论这个话题。

It wasn't really talked about.

《圣经》命令男人不可与男人同寝。

The Bible commands that a man shall not lie with a man.

人们普遍认为这类事情在犹太社区中不会发生。

And, it was assumed that that sort of thing didn't happen in the Jewish community.

但我在成长过程中知道自己被男性吸引，同时也相信自己最终会结婚。

But I knew as I was growing up that I was attracted to other men, but I also believed that eventually I'd get married.

有一段时间，我参与了一个正统犹太教团体，那里的婚姻大多是包办的。

For some time, I was involved with an ultra Orthodox Jewish group where marriages are mostly arranged.

我会结婚，会有孩子，一切都会自行解决，一切都会好起来的。

I'll get married, I'll have children, everything will sort itself out and be fine.

我多年来一直用这种信念欺骗自己。

I fooled myself with that sort of belief for years.

但当然，这种自我欺骗不可能永远持续下去。

But, so of course, that can't last forever, that sort of self deception.

于是我来到了英国。

And I came over to Britain.

我来自澳大利亚。

I'm from Australia.

我来英国是为了完成我的正统派拉比学业。

I came over to Britain to complete my rabbinic studies as an Orthodox rabbi.

在伦敦的学院期间，我开始越来越公开地出柜，但我无法向任何人倾诉。

And while I was in the college in London, I was beginning to come out more and more, but I couldn't talk to anyone about it.

我开始承认，这是我无法再忽视的现实。

I was beginning to acknowledge to myself that this was my reality that I could no longer ignore.

但在那个世界里，我没有任何人可以倾诉。

But I had no one to talk to in that world.

如果我向任何人坦白，我立刻就会被赶出去。

I would have been out on my ear immediately had I told that to anyone.

我联系了已故的杰出拉比莱昂内尔·布鲁，他是英国改革派运动中第一位公开出柜的拉比。

I did contact the late wonderful rabbi Lionel Blue, who was the first openly gay rabbi in the reform movement in Britain.

他多年来一直是我绝佳的支持者、导师和朋友。

He was a wonderful support and mentor and friend for many years.

他鼓励我继续前行并接受任命，我最终成为了一名正统派拉比，并在一座犹太会堂工作。

And he encouraged me to carry on and be ordained, which I was, as an Orthodox rabbi and I was working in a synagogue.

但我在公开宣扬的教义与价值观，和我内心的真实感受，以及我越来越频繁接触的犹太同性恋群体和更广泛的同性恋圈子之间，产生了越来越强烈的冲突。

But the conflict between the laws and values that I was openly espousing and the way I felt within myself, and the friends and the circles I was moving in more and more, gay, Jewish gay circles, and general gay circles, the conflict just became so intense.

这一切都让人非常沮丧。

It was all very depressing.

最终，我下定决心要公开出柜。

And ultimately, I reached the decision that I had to come out.

我并没有完全准备好被公开出柜，而事实上，这几乎就是《犹太纪事报》所做的事情。

I wasn't quite prepared to be outed, which is more or less what happened, the Jewish Chronicle.

但正如主教所说，一旦事情发生，就没什么好担心的了。

But as the Bishop said, once that's happened, there's far less to worry about.

秘密已经公开了。

The secret's out.

总的来说，我发现人们以极大的善意接受了这件事。

And by and large, I found people dealt with it with great generosity of spirit.

我事先已经解决了这个问题，宣布我要离开正统派犹太教世界。

I'd already solved the problem by saying beforehand that I was gonna leave the Orthodox world.

我很幸运地在自由派犹太教中找到了归宿，多年来我一直担任拉比。

And I was very lucky to find a home in liberal Judaism, where I've been a rabbi now for many years.

你知道，即使在早期，当一家犹太杂志刊登了我与当时男友的专题报道，并配有大幅照片时。

You know, even in the early days of that, when a Jewish magazine did a spread on me and my partner, my boyfriend of the time, with a big photograph.

我位于伦敦市中心的小型自由派会众中，人们感到非常不安。

People in my little liberal congregation in Central London were deeply uncomfortable.

他们说：我们不希望被看作是一个有同性恋拉比的同性恋会堂。

They said, we don't want to be known as a gay synagogue with a gay rabbi.

他们要求我不要再谈论这件事。

And they asked if I'd stop talking about it.

我说，不行。

And I said, no.

我不能停止谈论这件事。

I can't stop talking about it.

我不能把自己再关回柜子里。

Can't put myself back in the closet.

但除了那次经历之外，整体上环境非常包容，比如那位主教，他积极参与了推动同性伴侣仪式的活动。

But apart from that experience, it's mostly been extremely welcoming, like the bishop, involved in the campaigning for same sex commitment ceremonies.

我是2005年全球首部犹太教同性仪式祷文的主编。

I was the editor of our the very first liturgy for Jewish same sex ceremonies published in the world in 2005.

此后，自由派犹太教接纳了同性婚姻，成为最早这样做的宗教派别之一。

And liberal Judaism has since embraced equal marriage, one of the first religious denominations to do so.

西村宏道，你的佛教信仰对LGBT议题有何看法？

Kodo Nishimura, what does your Buddhist faith say about LGBT issues?

我来自一个叫净土宗的流派，意思是纯净土地佛教。

Well, I come from school called Jodoshi, which means Pure Land Buddhism.

他们强调的是，每个人都能获得同等的解脱。

And what they emphasize is that everybody can be equally liberated.

就像月光普照所有人一样，任何愿意抬头欣赏月光之美的人，都能因佛陀的慈悲而获得解脱。

Just like the moonlight is shining onto everybody, anybody who decides to look up and appreciates the beauty of the moon can be liberated by the mercy of Buddha.

我认为，实际上在我的学校或日本，真的没有人敢公开出柜，但因为我了解到，LGBTQ身份并没有错。

I think, actually, nobody really dared to come out in my school or in Japan, really, but because I learned that being LGBTQ is nothing wrong.

我成长过程中，作为日本人，我们看了很多动漫，而LGBTQ人物常被描绘成反派或变态。

When I was growing up, I you know, I'm from Japan, we watch a lot of animes, and LGBTQ people were portrayed as villains or perverted.

所以我非常害怕，也感到极度孤立。

So I was very afraid, and I felt very isolated.

但当我21岁去纽约时，我在帕森斯设计学院学习美术。

But when I went to New York at the age of 21, I studied fine arts at Parsons School of Design.

在帕森斯，学生们非常多彩，教授们也大多是同性恋。

And at Parsons, they are, like, really, really colorful students, and the professors are also gay.

于是，随着我对LGBTQ权利和历史的了解越来越多，我感到自己有责任传递自我肯定的火种。

And so the more I learned about LGBTQ rights and the history, I felt that it is my responsibility to spread the fire of self validation.

这就是我决定问自己的问题：我是同性恋，这可以吗？

That's how I decided to ask, is it okay that I'm a homosexual?

我喜欢给自己化妆、穿高跟鞋，这可以吗？

Is it okay that I like putting makeup and heels on myself?

我的导师告诉我，在佛教中，我们说有一个净土，就像天堂一样，那里有各种颜色的莲花盛开，象征着所有的多样性与个性都应以自己的色彩绽放，佛教接纳并庆祝多样性。

And my master told me that in Buddhism, we say that there is like a Pure Land, which is like heaven, and there are many colors of lotus flowers blossoming, which means all diversities, all personalities, they should shine in their own color, and Buddhism accepts and celebrates diversity.

佛教僧侣西村宏堂、蒙茅斯主教谢里万，以及拉比马克·所罗门。

Buddhist monk, Kodo Nishimura, the bishop of Monmouth, Cherivan, and rabbi Mark Solomon.

另一个将同性恋定为非法、最高可判处三年监禁的国家是摩洛哥。

Another country where it's illegal to be gay with punishments of up to three years in prison is Morocco.

阿尤巴·巴克里扬认同为非二元性别，是来自摩洛哥的LGBT活动家。

Ayuba Bakeryan identifies as nonbinary and is an LGBT activist from Morocco.

阿比尔·巴赫尔迪安是双性恋者，目前在布达佩斯求学，但原籍约旦。

Abir Bakherdian is bisexual and a student in Budapest, but is originally from Jordan.

她首先谈到了自己和当地LGBT群体的生活状况。

She began by discussing what it's like for herself and the LGBT community there.

我来自一个在约旦被视为开明的家庭。

I come from a family that would be considered open minded in Jordan.

我有机会过一种隐秘的生活，而约旦的许多人却做不到，因为父母在孩子的生活中参与度非常高。

I had the chance to kind of have a hidden life, which a lot of people in Jordan cannot, because parents are very involved in children's lives.

但到了某个时候，这已经不够了。

But at some point it wasn't enough anymore.

我想要一种真正的生活，可以拥有伴侣，公开地生活，并且真正地建立家庭。

I wanted an actual life where I can have a partner, I can be open about it, and I can actually have a life and build a family.

这正是我想离开祖国的最主要原因。

That's the hugest part of why I want to leave my country.

在约旦，你能做多少真实的自己？

How much could you be yourself in Jordan?

我在首都安曼长大。

I grew up in Amman, in the capital.

我们的社会中有许多社交圈层，比如中上层阶级的圈子，他们上特定的学校，做特定的事情，在这些圈子里，你或许能有更多空间去找到理解你、接纳你的人。

We have a lot of social bubbles inside our society, so you have this middle higher, middle class bubble that go to specific schools, do specific things, and there maybe you would have a little bit more flexibility on being able to find people who would understand you, who would be accepting.

但即便在那些圈子中，即使人们表面上更开明、更包容，同性恋仍然是一种禁忌。

But it's still not widely accepted, like even in those circles, even the circles where people are presumably more open minded and more accepting, it's still kind of a taboo.

我找到了一群接纳我的朋友，可以向他们出柜。

I was able to find a circle of friends that was accepting that I could come out to.

但在我的工作场所，我根本不敢向同事出柜。

But for example, in my workplace, wouldn't have dared to come out to my colleagues.

会发生什么？

What would have happened?

我会担心，比如和女同事之间会不会变得尴尬，或者别人会不会用异样的眼光看我。

I would worry, for example, with female co workers, if it would make it weird between us, or if people would look at me in a different way, like in a different light.

我们请艾尤巴谈谈吧。

Let's bring in Ayuba.

跟我们说说你在摩洛哥的生活。

Tell us about your life in Morocco.

我住在摩洛哥首都拉巴特，但我出生并成长在一个非常小的城镇。

I live in Rabat, Morocco, the capital, but I was born and raised in a very small town.

好吧，作为酷儿群体，我们总会找到一些方法来保护自己，去那些让我们感到安全的地方。

Okay, you know, there are ways as queer people we find our strategies to stay safe and to go to places that we feel safe somehow.

但总的来说，生活在摩洛哥的LGBT群体面临诸多问题。

But in general, there are so many issues for LGBT people living in Morocco.

人们如果与同性发生性关系，最高可被判处三年监禁。

People can go up to three years in prison for having sexual intercourse with other person in the same sex.

此外，还有社会层面的问题。

Also there is the social level.

在学校、工作场所、社会、政府机构，甚至在医疗服务中，处处都充斥着严重的恐同和恐跨情绪。

There are so much so many homophobia and transphobia on all levels in schools, in working space, in society, in administration, also in health services, in all aspects of society.

我想更深入地了解你们两人与自己家庭的关系，可以吗？

I'd like to understand more the relationship you both have with your own families, if that's okay.

跟我谈谈你和你的家人吧。

Talk to me about you and your family.

我和我的家人没有关系。

I don't have a relationship with my family.

我不必向他们解释我是谁、我做什么，因为在现实生活中，我知道如果他们知道了，我就永远失去他们了。

I didn't have to explain to them who I am and what I do, like, in my real life, Because I know that if they knew, I'm gonna lose them forever.

所以我只想保留对家人的这份爱，于是我搬出了父母的家。

So I just want to keep this love for my family, and I just moved out from my parent's house.

所以，我基本上还是保持着某种与家人的联系，尽管我们之间并没有深厚的关系。

So basically, I'm keeping, like, a familial somehow linkage with them, even though we don't have a deep relationship between us.

但总的来说，尤其是来自我们的背景和文化，家庭很难接受或理解这一点。

But yeah, in general, it's really hard for families to accept or understand, especially coming from our background and our culture.

是的，我完全能理解尤巴刚才说的。

Yeah, can perfectly relate to what Yuba just said.

当你住在他们屋檐下的时候，他们会觉得你不会离开，你需要他们。

When you're living under their roof, they kind of have the security that you're not going to leave them, that you need them.

所以他们觉得可以更多地介入你生活的细节。

So they feel like they can be more involved in the details of your life.

但当你搬出去，向他们展示你有能力独立生存时，这种关系就变了。

But when you leave and you show them that you have this capability of surviving on your own, then it changes the dynamic.

我妈妈是通过一件事发现的。

My mom found out through an incident.

我和父亲从未直接谈过这件事，但我确定他知道。

With my father, we never really talked about it head on, but I'm sure he knows.

但他喜欢假装没这回事。

But he likes to kind of ignore it.

我的兄弟姐妹都知道。

My siblings do know.

我向他们出柜了。

I did come out to them.

我的兄弟姐妹非常支持我。

My siblings were pretty supportive.

但对我来说也是一样。

But it's the same for me.

现在我住得远了，和他们聊天时，他们只想表现得愉快友好，希望我回家探望。

Now that I'm living far away, when I talk to them, they just want to be pleasant and be nice, and they want me to come and visit.

因此，独自生活并居住在另一个国家，为我建立了一个良好的个人界限。

So this created a good personal boundary for me living on my own and living in a different country.

也许我们并没有亲密到无话不谈，但我仍然觉得我们能维持一种充满爱的关系。

Maybe we don't have the closest relationship where we talk about everything, but I still feel like we can maintain some sort of loving relationship.

你什么时候最开心？

When are you at your happiest?

我最快乐的时候，就是有爱和友谊的地方。

I'm happiest wherever there is love, when there is friendship.

当我看到来自我们地区的人们能够表达自我、创造安全空间，希望有一天我们的国家也能如此时，我感到最幸福。

I'm the happiest when I see people, especially from our parts of the world, be able to express themselves and create safe spaces in hopes that we can do this one day in our own countries.

所以，当我身处人们能安心表达自我的圈子里，而我自己也感到同样安心时，我最开心。

So I'm the happiest when I'm in circles where people feel safe to express themselves, and I feel the same.

来自约旦的艾尤巴·贝克里安和来自摩洛哥的阿比尔·贝克里安，谈到了作为LGBT群体成员所面临的挑战以及他们对未来的期望。

Ayuba Bakeryan from Jordan and also Abir Bakeryan from Morocco talking about the challenges of being within the LGBT community and also their hopes for the future.

我是詹姆斯·雷诺兹，您正在收听BBC OS关于LGBT身份的对话。

I'm James Reynolds, and you've been listening to BBC OS conversations on being LGBT.

你好。

Hi.

我是曼尼，《世界杯在卡塔尔》播客的主持人，这个播客引领着关于全球足球的讨论。

I'm Manny, host of World Football in Qatar, the podcast leading the conversation on the global game.

2022年男子世界杯正在举行。

The twenty twenty two Men's World Cup is underway.

当

As

32个国家梦想着赢得世界杯冠军时，我们将深入卡塔尔幕后，采访球队、球迷以及所有参与本届赛事的人。

32 nations dream of World Cup victory, we're going behind the scenes in Qatar, talking to the teams, the fans, and people there for the tournament.

我觉得球队从这种氛围中获得了动力。

I think the team fed off the energy.

那里有很多厄瓜多尔球迷。

There was a lot of Ecuador fans there.

我的意思是，这太重要了。

I mean, it's huge.

你代表的是一些比你自己更宏大的东西。

You you represent someone that's bigger than yourself.

这是一场梦想，

It's a dream for

对我们所有人来说。

for all of us.

所以我们全力以赴在球场上，让他们感到骄傲。

So we give everything on the pitch to make them proud.

这是来自BBC世界服务的‘卡塔尔世界足球’。

That's world football in Qatar from the BBC World Service.

现在是世界杯的时候了。

It's a World Cup time.

一切准备就绪。

It's ready to go.

在你收听BBC播客的任何平台都能找到它。

Find it wherever you get your BBC podcasts.