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这个BBC播客由英国境外的广告支持。
This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside The UK.
访谈。
The interview.
来自BBC最出色的对话。
The best conversations coming out of the BBC.
历史上最伟大的网球运动员之一，玛蒂娜·纳芙拉蒂洛娃。
One of the greatest tennis players in history, Martina Navratilova.
来自世界各地塑造我们世界的人们。
People shaping our world from all over the
世界。
world.
音乐传奇人物史蒂维·旺德。
Music icon Stevie Wonder.
从全球领袖开始，
From global leaders,
巴西总统路易斯·伊纳西奥·卢拉·达席尔瓦。
the Brazilian president Luis Innacio Lula de Silva.
波兰总统卡罗尔·诺沃茨基。
The president of Poland, Carol Novotsky.
美国总统唐纳德·特朗普。
US president Donald Trump.
到文化偶像。
To cultural icons.
两届奥斯卡获奖演员安东尼·霍普金斯爵士。
Two time Oscar winning actor, sir Anthony Hopkins.
来自BBC世界服务的访谈。
The interview from the BBC World Service.
在您收听BBC播客的任何平台立即收听。
Listen now wherever you get your BBC podcasts.
美国正在变化，世界也是如此。
America is changing, and so is the world.
但美国正在发生的事情不仅仅是全球动荡的原因。
But what's happening in America isn't just a cause of global upheaval.
它也是 everywhere 正在发生的动荡的征兆。
It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere.
我是来自华盛顿特区的阿斯马奇利德。
I'm Asmachalid in Washington, DC.
我是来自伦敦的特里斯坦·雷德曼。
I'm Tristan Redman in London.
这就是全球故事。
And this is the global story.
每个工作日，我们都会为您带来一个世界与美国交汇处的故事。
Every weekday, we'll bring you a story from this intersection where the world and America meet.
请在 bbc.com 或您收听播客的任何平台收听。
Listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts.
四十年前，一百万人在菲律宾的一条高速公路上直面坦克和武装直升机。
Forty years ago, a million people faced down tanks and helicopter gunships on a highway in The Philippines.
这是持续二十年的费迪南德和伊梅尔达·马科斯政权终结的最后一步。
It was the final act of an uprising that ended the two decade long reign of Ferdinand and Imelda Marcos.
这些都是大事，但在上百万人中间，你不可能再感到害怕了。
These were serious things, but you can't get scared in the middle of a million people anymore.
当时就是觉得，好吧。
It was like, okay.
我们在这儿了。
Here we are.
咱们继续吧。
Let's get on with this thing.
突然间，所有的坦克都动了起来。
Suddenly, all of the tanks frumbled into action.
它们伪装得非常好。
They were so camouflaged.
我没看到。
I didn't see.
有数百名士兵躺在地上。
There were hundreds of troops lying on the ground.
当他们站起来时，天哪。
And then when they stood up, oh my god.
这是来自BBC世界服务的纪录片。
This is the documentary from the BBC World Service.
我是希拉·科罗内尔，来自纽约哥伦比亚大学的调查记者，这是重写一场革命。
I'm Sheila Coronel, an investigative journalist from Columbia University New York, and this is rewriting a revolution.
我请求你们让你们的声音被听见。
I ask you to let your voices be heard.
科里亚·基诺领导了反对马科斯的运动。
Coria Kino led the opposition to Marcos.
我请求你们让人民的力量被感受到。
I ask you to let the people's power be felt.
我请求你们用明确无误的语言向法老传达这个信息。
I ask you to send this message to the pharaoh in language unmistakable and clear.
让我们的人民走吧。
Let our people go.
让菲律宾人民走吧。
Let the Filipino people go.
玛丽安·罗斯是位策展人。
Marianne Rosses is a curator.
她加入了位于马尼拉主干道、埃皮法尼奥·德洛斯桑托斯大道（EDSA）的人群。
She joined a crowd along Manila Central Arterial, Epifanio De Los Santos Avenue or EDSA.
真的是汗流浃背。
It is really sweat besides sweat.
真的是身体紧贴着身体。
It is really bodies touching.
我认为你再也不会有这种经历了。
I don't think you have an experience like that anymore.
如果当时不是那样发生，我们现在早就死了。
If it didn't happen the way it did, then we'd be dead.
这很严重。
That is serious.
那可不是玩闹。
It wasn't playtime.
人们手拉着手，念诵玫瑰经，向士兵献花，而士兵们拒绝开火。
People linked arms, prayed the rosary, offered flowers to the troops, and the soldiers refused to fire.
这是一次宗教体验。
It was a religious experience.
这是我们自己的宗教体验。
It's our religious experience.
后来，人们带来了自己的圣人雕像，圣像被用来展现女性力量，因为主要是圣母玛利亚。
Eventually, people came with their own statues of saints, and icons served to show female energy because it's mostly Virgin Mary.
在极端困境中，实际上在古老的南岛世界里，女性力量会成为抗争者。
And when it comes to dire situations, it's the female energy actually in the old Austronesian world that becomes a fighter.
古老的传统文化依然存在。
The old culture is still there.
这不是基督教。
This is not Christianity.
在宫殿内，马科斯先生仍在紧握权力。
Inside the palace, mister Marcos is still clinging to power.
我警告反对派。
I warn the opposition.
不要逼我采取你们早已熟知的极端行动。
Do not compel me to move into extremes that you already know of.
如果有必要，我会这么做。
If necessary, I will do so.
美国人已公开呼吁他下台，以避免流血事件。
The Americans have publicly called on him to step down and avoid bloodshed.
马科斯先生坚持称他将在清晨如期就任总统，但反对派领袖科丽·阿基诺的支持者称，她将在那之前成为总统。
Mister Marcos insists he will be inaugurated president as scheduled in the morning, but supporters of the opposition leader, Correa Kino, say she'll be made president before then.
马科斯先生自两周前虚假选举摧毁了政府公信力后，就已离开宫殿。
Mister Marcos has hardened left his palace since the phony elections destroyed his government's credibility over two weeks ago.
在总统府的大门前，阿基诺夫人的支持者将他们的胆量推向了极限。
And at the president's front gate, missus Aquino's supporters pushed their luck to the limit.
士兵们接到命令，要对保卫政府财产的民众开火，但人群决心拆除铁丝网路障。
The troops had orders to open fire in defensive government property, but the mob was determined to remove the barbed wire barricades.
但这一切对马科斯总统的卫队来说实在太过分了。
But it was all too much for mister Marcus's palace guard.
他们朝天开枪，试图吓退人群。
They fired into the air to frighten off the crowd.
1986年，我是一名年轻记者，报道了这场持续四天的起义。
In 1986, I was a young reporter covering the four day uprising.
人们称它为人民力量革命。
They called it the people power revolution.
当马科斯逃亡、人群涌向总统府时，我就在现场。
I was there when the Marcos fled and the crowd surged to the Presidential Palace.
我被人群裹挟着，进入了这个家族最私密的空间。
I was swept along, entering the family's most private spaces.
伊梅尔达的衣帽间里有上千双即将闻名于世的鞋子，费迪南德病重时使用的透析机所在的卧室，还有装满加仑级香水瓶的华丽闺房。
Imelda's closet with the soon to be famous thousand plus pairs of shoes, the bedroom with the ailing Ferdinand's dialysis machine, the ornate boudoir with gallon sized bottles of perfume.
他们毫无阻碍地涌过大门，进入了一座他们视作希特勒地堡般的宫殿。
They poured through the gates without resistance into a palace which they regard as the equivalent of Hitler's bunker.
几分钟内，阿基诺的支持者们开始从宫殿的窗户扔出 steak papers（牛排纸）。
Within minutes, Aquino supporters began throwing steak papers from the palace's windows.
许多听到马科斯逃离消息的人泪流满面，跪地祈祷。
Many who heard the news of the Marcos' departure wept and knelt down to pray.
街头有人跳舞、燃放烟花、按喇叭、欢笑、哭泣、相拥。
There was dancing in the streets, fireworks, horn honking and laughing, crying, embracing.
漫长的痛苦结束了。
The long agony is over.
我们终于自由了，而且我们可以为前所未有地赢得自由而感到无比自豪。
We are finally free, and we can be truly proud of the unprecedented way we achieved our freedom.
人民力量震惊了世界。
People power stunned the world.
马科斯是美国的人，是亚洲对抗共产主义的堡垒，是自由世界的捍卫者，即使他自己的国家并不自由。
Marcos was America's boy, a bulwark against communism in Asia, a defender of the free world, even if his own country wasn't free.
在马尼拉长大的我，除了马科斯之外，不记得任何其他总统。
Growing up in Manila, I had no memory of any other president but Marcos.
他首次当选总统时，我刚开始上小学。
I started elementary school when he was first elected president.
他和伊梅尔达就像王室成员一样。
He and Imelda were like royalty.
我曾以为他们会统治终身。
I thought they would rule for life.
但在1986年，我们确信就是这次了。
But in 1986, we were sure this is it.
终于，马科斯时代结束了。
Finally, the end of the Marcos era.
所以阿基诺夫人现在是这个国家的统治者了？
So missus Aquino is now the ruler of this country?
我们
We
现在有了自由的媒体、新的宪法和对总统权力的制约机制。
now had a free press, a new constitution, guardrails in the presidency.
在我们七千五百多个岛屿上，地方政府获得了更多权力。
Across our seven and a half thousand islands, local governments were given more power.
我认为，这个国家所期待的是能够带来改革、清廉政府，或许还有公民权利的回归。
What this country is looking forward to, I think, is something which offers them reform, clean government, and perhaps a return to normal civil rights.
然而，四十年后，我们为自由所赢得的成果却鲜有欢庆。
Yet, four decades later, there's little rejoicing about the freedoms we won.
民主并没有为饥饿的人提供食物，也没有为数百万失业者提供工作。
Democracy didn't deliver food to the hungry nor jobs to the millions out of work.
开车穿过马尼拉，你会看到新的财富飞地。
Drive around Manila and you'll see the new enclaves of wealth.
它们就像迷你版的迪拜，是贫瘠海洋中的富裕孤岛。
They're like mini Dubai's, islands of affluence in a sea of poverty.
许多菲律宾人现在说，这场起义不过是富人的权力。
The uprising, many Filipinos now say, was just rich people's power.
我们的领导人靠公款养肥自己，对民众的苦难和生活的不稳定性无动于衷。
Our leaders lived off the public trough, impervious to the people's misery and the precarity of their lives.
这是马尼拉的唐多，人口密集、环境恶劣。
This is Tondo in Manila, overcrowded and squalid.
这里的居民被困在社会与经济的灰色地带，被政府遗弃。
Its residents stuck in a social and economic twilight zone abandoned by the state.
该
The
被遗弃的感觉从未真正离开过一大片菲律宾选民。
feeling of abandonment never really left a swathe of Filipino voters.
而在人民力量运动三十年后，一种强人风格的领导再次回到了总统府。
And thirty years on from people power, a strong man style leadership returned to the Presidential Palace.
2016年，菲律宾人选举了罗德里戈·杜特尔特，这位激进的领导人承诺用杀戮来保障他们的安全。
In 2016, Filipinos elected Rodrigo Duterte, a firebrand who promised to kill to keep them safe.
六年之后，他们投票选举了被推翻的独裁者之子费迪南德·邦邦·马科斯 Jr.，而这正是当年革命旨在阻止的事情。
And then six years after that, they voted for the deposed dictator's son, Ferdinand Bong Bong Marcos junior, just what the revolution was designed to prevent.
那是2022年，正好是他父亲宣布戒严的五十年后。
That was in 2022, exactly fifty years after his father declared martial law.
你可能会说，历史正在重演。
You might say history is repeating itself.
费迪南德·马科斯 Jr.，人称邦邦，赢得了总统选举。
Ferdinand Marcos junior, universally known as Bong Bong, won the presidential election.
他是那位统治了二十多年的前独裁者的儿子，期间反对派遭到镇压，成千上万人被监禁或失踪。
He's the son of the former dictator who ruled for more than twenty years, during which time opposition was crushed and thousands of people were jailed or disappeared.
一个曾向世界展示‘人民力量’的国家，怎么会走到这一步？
How could this happen in a country that gave the world people power?
当年参与起义的人如今不禁问：这一切值得吗？
Those who took part in the uprising now ask, was it worth it?
亚洲第一个共和国、美国在太平洋地区展示民主的典范，怎么会沦落至此？
How did Asia's first republic, America's showcase of democracy in The Pacific, end up this way?
菲律宾总统的基本职责是维持秩序。
The fundamental expectation of a Philippine president is to maintain order.
曼努埃尔·奎松三世是菲律宾总统历史学家，也是《菲律宾每日问询报》的专栏作家。
Manuel Quezon the third is a presidential historian and columnist for the Philippine Daily Inquirer.
他还是菲律宾第二任总统的孙子，名字正是继承自这位先人。
He's also the grandson of The Philippines' second president from whom he takes his name.
如果你追溯自20世纪80年代以来任何一位总统的受欢迎程度，其根源都在于这个基本问题。
If you trace the popularity or lack of it of any president since the nineteen eighties, it has been on that fundamental question.
我们菲律宾需要的是一种开明的独裁。
What we needed in The Philippines was something like a enlightened dictatorship.
1965年，费迪南德·马科斯首次当选总统。
In 1965, Ferdinand Marcos was elected president for the first time.
他当选时承诺将打击腐败、恢复法律与秩序。
He was voted on the promise that he would fight corruption and restore law and order.
马科斯是凭借自己的努力爬上权力顶峰的。
Marcos had fought his way to the top.
他是一名律师，自称是二战英雄，最初当选为代表伊洛克省北部的议员。
A lawyer and self described World War II hero, he was first elected to represent the rural province of Ilocos Norte.
马尼拉精英阶层瞧不起他这个乡下出身的冒牌货，但他却说出了像我父亲这样的人的不满。
The Manila elite looked down on him as a provincial wannabe, but he spoke to the frustrations of men like my father.
我父亲也是来自伊洛克地区一个无名小镇的律师。
My father too was a lawyer from a nowhere town in the Ilokos region.
他们这些人被纳入了新兴的中产阶级，深受中产阶级向上流动的抱负所驱动，却又因缺乏显赫家世而被压制，充满挫败感。
They were people who were made members of a rising middle class, so imbued with the upwardly mobile aspirations of a middle class and the frustrations of a class held back simply because they lacked the pedigree.
因此，我认为，通过自己的人生经历，马科斯能够向他的同代人传达：‘我懂你们。’
And that therefore Marcos, I think, by his own life experience, was able to communicate to his generation that, Hey, I understand you.
我一位与他同龄的叔叔给我讲过一个绝佳的故事。
An uncle of mine who was his contemporary told me the perfect story.
那是在1949年。
This was in 1949.
马科斯即将踏入政坛。
Marcos is about to enter politics.
他被邀请参加一场同代新兴领袖的游泳派对。
He's invited to a swimming party of his generation of up and coming leaders.
所有人都穿着泳裤，他却穿着一件白色鲨鱼皮西装，脚蹬一双亮白色漆皮鞋出现。
And they're all there in their swimming trunks, he shows up in a white shark skin suit with patent leather white shoes.
大家哄笑着把他赶出了房间。
And everyone laughed him out of the room.
我叔叔说，这个故事的讽刺之处在于，当时在场的十个人中有九个最终流亡或入狱。
The punchline, my uncle said, is that nine out of 10 of the people in that gathering ended up in exile or jail.
菲律宾是美国在伊拉克或阿富汗之前首个民主建设项目。
The Philippines was America's first democracy building project long before Iraq or Afghanistan.
美军于1898年入侵了我的国家。
US troops invaded my country in 1898.
他们与要求摆脱长达三百多年西班牙统治的菲律宾起义者展开了残酷的战争。
They fought a brutal war against Filipino rebels demanding independence for more than three hundred years of Spanish rule.
随后是长达半个世纪的美国指导，旨在将菲律宾重塑成美国的翻版。
What followed was a half century of American tutelage designed to remake The Philippines in America's image.
马科斯属于在美治时期成长起来的最后一代年轻专业人士。
Marcos belonged to the last generation of young professionals who reached maturity under the American period.
他们成长的时期正好赶在日本占领前夕。
They did so right on the eve of the Japanese occupation.
因此，你可以说马科斯属于那种善于伪装的菲律宾一代人，他们非常擅长说出美国人想听的话，但同时也清楚现实与官方空话相去甚远。
So you could say that Marcos belonged to that sort of chameleon generation of Filipinos who had it down pat when it came to verbalizing everything that the Americans wanted to hear, but who understood that the reality on the ground is far different from what the official platitudes are.
马科斯非常狡猾。
Marcos was cunning.
他明白，在一个曾是美国殖民地、人民被美国官员称为‘小棕兄弟’的国家，任何领袖都必须使用‘大哥’的语言。
He understood that in a country that had been a US colony, whose people had been labeled little brown brothers by American officials, any leader had to speak the language of their big brother.
他是菲律宾社会中一个特殊群体的成员，这个群体对战前和战后的现状充满怨恨。
He was a member of a particular subset of Philippine society that had a lot of resentments against the prewar and the postwar status quo.
他知道每个人的价格是多少。
He knew what everyone's price was.
我认为这就是他与同代人截然不同的地方。
I think that is what set him apart from all his contemporaries.
到1969年马科斯赢得第二个总统任期时，国家已陷入危机。
By the time Marcos won a second presidential term in 1969, the country was in crisis.
他为了资助竞选而掏空了国库。
He had raided the treasury to fund his campaign.
出现了大规模的船只采购和猖獗的腐败。
There was massive boat buying and rampant fraud.
农村的穷人情绪动荡不安。
The poor in the countryside were restive.
而在马尼拉，学生们正冲击总统府。
And in Manila, students were storming the Presidential Palace.
就在此时，年轻的激进分子与上世纪五十年代共产主义农民起义的残余力量联合，组建了新的人民军。
It was then that young radicals teamed up with the remnants of a nineteen fifties communist peasant rebellion and formed the new People's Army.
1971年8月，两枚手榴弹在反对派举行政治集会的讲台上爆炸。
In August 1971, two grenades exploded on the stage where the opposition was holding a political rally.
九人死亡，近一百人受伤，其中包括数名参议员。
Nine were killed, nearly a 100 wounded, including several senators.
中产阶级害怕混乱。
The middle class feared chaos.
许多人渴望秩序。
Many craved order.
我父亲在床边放了一把猎枪，并加入了邻居们在我们郊区村庄的夜间巡逻。
My father kept a shot gun near his bed, and he joined neighbors in nighttime patrols in our suburban village.
马科斯宣布紧急状态，并为一年后实施的戒严法奠定了基础。
Marcos declared an emergency and laid the groundwork for martial law, which he imposed a year later.
我们当时已经无路可退。
We had our back to the wall as it were.
更甚于此的是，马尼拉及周边地区因持续的轰炸和暴力而弥漫着绝望的气氛。
More than this was the atmosphere of despair here in Manila and the surrounding areas because of the continuous bombing and violence.
菲律宾首都马尼拉一直以其令人愉快的夜生活而闻名。
Manila, the Philippine capital, has always been known for its enjoyable nightlife.
但无论这些夜生活爱好者是否真的在享受，他们都要再等三个小时，直到凌晨四点宵禁解除才能离开。
But whether these swingers are enjoying themselves or not, they won't be allowed to leave for another three hours when the curfew is lifted at 4AM.
这些夜总会的停留，是1972年那个夜晚戒严迅速而高效实施后产生的奇特结果。
These stay in nightclubs, as they're called, are a curious result of that night in 1972 when martial law was swiftly and efficiently imposed.
就在那天，民选的国会遭到暂停。
On that day, the elected Congress was suspended.
其成员被拒之于立法大厅之外，只有少数人被关押起来，比如阿基诺参议员，他至今仍被监禁。
Its members were locked out of the legislative chamber, except for a few who were locked up, like Senator Aquino, who's still in jail.
电视和广播电台被停播，报纸也纷纷停刊。
Television and radio stations were taken off the air, and newspapers closed down.
总统马科斯说，那个充满暴力、腐败和分赃政治的旧社会已经死亡。
The old society of violence, corruption, and pork barrel politics, said President Marcos, was dead.
取而代之的，将是一个崭新的社会。
In its place, a new society would arise.
一个以纪律为基础的社会，清洁、秩序与诚实将占据主导。
A society built on discipline, where cleanliness and order and honesty would prevail.
戒严在寂静中降临。
Martial law arrived in silence.
那天没有报纸，电视上除了戒严公告外什么都没有。
There were no newspapers that day, nothing on TV except the martial law announcement.
我记得午夜宵禁、铁丝网路障，以及寂静的街道。
I remember the midnight curfew, the barbed wire barricades, the hushed streets.
活动人士在夜里消失了。
Activists disappeared in the night.
头三年里，有五万人被逮捕。
50,000 were arrested in the first three years.
大赦国际和国际法学家委员会的报告证实了幸存者所描述的种种恐怖。
Reports by Amnesty International and the International Commission of Jurists confirmed the horrors attested to by those who survived them.
所以我被逮捕了，随后被审讯和折磨了大约三到四周，之后被关押在拘留中心超过一年。
So I was captured, and then I was tortured and interrogated for about three or four weeks, then incarcerated in detention center for more than a year.
我们人满为患。
We were overcrowded.
我们一个牢房本该只关十个人。
We had a single cell good only for about 10 people.
那里大约有三十个人。
There were about 30 of us there.
阿马多·门多萨是菲律宾大学政治学与国际研究系的退休教授。
Amado Mendoza is a retired professor of political science and international studies at the University of the Philippines.
在戒严时期，他参与了反对独裁政权的地下抵抗运动。
During the martial law years, he was in the underground resistance to the dictatorship.
他们的一种手段是从心理上摧毁你。
One of the things that they do is really to procure you psychologically.
手段比较原始的，就直接使用肉体折磨。
The less sophisticated ones resorted to physical pain.
他们有一种方法，就是用大瓶装苏打水瓶，不停地敲打。
They have this method of using family size soda bottles, and they would just continue tapping and tapping.
还没反应过来，身上就已经青一块紫一块了。
Before you know it, it's black and blue.
当他们无法达到目的时，就会用藤条抽打你。
When they fail to achieve their objectives, When they will use rattan sticks to beat you up.
当时我们中很少有人知道，酷刑和强迫失踪确保了政权的生存。
Not many of us knew then that torture and disappearances ensured the regime's survival.
我们被费迪南德·马科斯带来的名人和第一夫人伊梅尔达所吸引。
We were distracted by the celebrities first lady Imelda Marcos brought to the country.
玛格特·方丹、穆罕默德·阿里、布鲁克·雪德丝等等，数不胜数。
Margot Fontaine, Muhammad Ali, Brooke Shields amongst many, many others.
伊梅尔达策划了各种盛事，试图与真正的王室媲美，甚至超越他们。
He melda staged spectacles that sought to rival, even that put on by real royals.
她想成为法拉迪巴。
She was wanting to be Faradiba.
因此，无论她在国际独裁者兄弟圈中看到什么，她都会试图复制属于自己的版本。
So whatever she saw in the international band of brothers of dictators, she would try to get her own version.
当时，玛丽安·罗丝正在伊梅尔达的菲律宾文化中心担任策展人。
At this time, Marianne Roses was working as a curator at Imelda's Cultural Center of the Philippines.
紧邻其旁的是1974年为举办环球小姐选美大赛而建造的民俗艺术剧院。
Adjoining it was the Folk Arts Theater built in 1974 for the Miss Universe beauty pageant.
一场盛大的游行，两万人参加了这座建筑的落成典礼，其灵感源自伊朗末代女皇法拉赫·巴列维举办的类似盛典。
A grand parade, 20,000 people inaugurated the building, inspired by a similar spectacle mounted by Faradiva Pallavi, the last empress of Iran.
因此，这种盛典的结构是从古代历史演进到以伊朗沙阿为代表的现代辉煌时代。
And so the structure of the spectacle was evolution from ancient history to the glorious days of modernity embodied by the Shah of Iran in the case of Iran.
在菲律宾，费迪南德·马科斯所构建的新社会被视为演进的巅峰。
In The Philippines, the new society of Ferdinand Marcos was the high point of evolution.
我们绝不能忘记，这一切都是全球性的。
And we really mustn't forget that this was global.
这些杰出的女性与这些阳刚的独裁者，他们彼此是朋友。
These wonderful women and these macho dictators, they were friends.
伊梅尔达是前马科斯宣传人员所称的‘夫妻独裁’的另一半。
Imelda was the other half of what a former Marcos propagandist called the conjugal dictatorship.
伊梅尔达·马科斯被任命为马尼拉总督和人类住区部长，掌管数千万美元的外国援助资金。
Imelda Marcos was appointed governor of Manila and minister of human settlements with millions of dollars of foreign aid at her disposal.
她过着臭名昭著的奢侈生活，她和政权其他成员积累了巨额个人财富。
She developed a notoriously extravagant life style, and she and other members of the regime amassed huge personal fortunes.
正如菲律宾反贪法院所发现的，马科斯及其亲信窃取了日本战争赔款。
As The Philippines stopped anti graft court found, Marcos and his cronies stole money from Japanese war reparations.
当战争赔款结束并转为外国发展援助后，贿赂行为继续存在，促使日本多年后修改了相关规则。
When that ended and turned into foreign development assistance, the bribery simply continued, prompting Japan to change its age rules years later.
菲律宾政府审计人员还发现，马科斯挪用了美国军事援助资金。
Philippine government auditors also found that Marcos siphoned off US military aid.
这对夫妇在世界银行和国际货币基金组织的帮助下，使菲律宾陷入债务泥潭。
The couple mired The Philippines in debt with the help of the World Bank and the IMF.
他们的帮凶遍布全球，包括美国律师、曼哈顿房地产经纪人、瑞士银行家和日本高管，他们在长达二十一年的统治期间协助他们掠夺国家财富并隐藏资产。
Their enablers spanned the globe, American lawyers, Manhattan realtors, Swiss bankers, and Japanese executives who helped them loot the country and hide their wealth over the course of their twenty one year rule.
当革命政府开始追查他们的赃款时，估计马科斯家族在1980年代积累的财富高达100亿美元。
When the revolutionary government started tracing their loot, the Marcoses were estimated to have amassed up to 10,000,000,000 in nineteen eighties US dollars.
这相当于今天的280亿美元。
That's around 28,000,000,000 today.
我是鲁本·卡兰扎。
I'm Ruben Carranza.
我是非政府组织国际过渡正义中心的高级专家，该组织致力于处理腐败独裁者、战争罪犯，而腐败的战争罪犯也是独裁者。
I am a senior expert at a nongovernment organization called the International Center for Transitional Justice, ICTJ, which deals with corrupt dictators, war criminals, and corrupt war criminals are also dictators.
这是富尔顿街。
This is Fulton Street.
鲁本带我参观了伊梅尔达的纽约。
Ruben took me on a tour of Imelda's New York.
在戒严期间，她过着曼哈顿社交名媛的生活。
During the martial law years, she lived the life of a Manhattan socialite.
第一夫人在蒂芙尼购物，在Studio 54派对，还与沙特军火商阿德南·卡舒吉等人来往。
The first lady shopped at Tiffany's, partied at Studio fifty four, and hung out with the likes of the Saudi arms dealer, Adnan Khashoggi.
戒严结束后，伊梅尔达掌握了多座摩天大楼的钥匙，比如我们参观起点的华尔街40号。
Once martial law ended, Imelda had the keys to several skyscrapers, like 40 Wall Street, where our tour started.
从1981年到1982年，费迪南德赠予伊梅尔达·马科斯四栋建筑。
So four buildings were gifted from 1981 to 1982 by Ferdinand to Imelda Marcos.
这栋楼是其中之一，于1982年12月以约7000万美元购得，当然，产权登记在一家加勒比控股公司名下，该公司仅有一名股东。
This was one of them, acquired for about $70,000,000 in December 1982 and, of course, titled in the name of a Caribbean holding company, which is one shareholder.
这七千万来自不同渠道，既有菲律宾的资金，也有马科斯家族其他借贷所得，但最终都以用菲律宾资金购置的资产作为担保。
The 70,000,000 came from different sources, both Philippine money as well as money that came from other borrowings by the Marcoses, but ultimately secured with assets acquired with Philippine money.
他们获取资金购买这些大楼的另一种方式，就是直接从菲律宾国家银行在纽约的分行提取现金。
One other way that they obtained capital to buy these buildings was to literally withdraw money from the branch of the Philippine National Bank here in New York.
根据美国众议院的一份证词，她曾想把买下这栋楼所花的七千万再取出来，用于购买其他东西。
According to one testimony before the US House of Representatives, she wanted to pull the same 70,000,000 it cost to get it later from this building and buy something else.
因此，这些大楼对她来说也是一种投资。
So it was an investment for her as well, these buildings.
通过化名，费迪南德和伊梅尔达成为了世界上一些最大银行的常客。
Under aliases, Ferdinand and Imelda became regular customers of some of the world's largest banks.
瑞士的银行明知是马科斯的钱，仍予以接受，并以此作为马科斯在巴拿马、加勒比地区及离岸账户设立的控股公司的担保。
And they were knowingly accepted Marcos' money in Switzerland and then used that as a security for the Marcos created holding companies created in Panama, in The Caribbean, in offshore accounts.
这些银行明知马科斯家族的所作所为，仍积极参与向这些空壳公司放贷，使其能够在此购置房地产，并且这种行为持续了数十年。
And so these banks knowingly participated in the process of lending to these dummy corporations so that they could acquire real estate here and allowed that to keep going for decades knowing what was going on with the Marcoses.
当伊梅尔达购物派对时，菲律宾人却在挨饿。
While Imelda was shopping and partying, Filipinos were going hungry.
例如在1981年或1982年，蔗糖产业已经崩溃。
In 1982 or 1981, for example, the sugar industry had collapsed.
菲律宾中部地区出现了营养不良。
There was malnutrition in the Central Philippines.
由于甘蔗种植户家庭无力供养，孩子们正在死去。
Children were dying because sugarcane farmer families could not feed them.
因此，1982年菲律宾的债务约为260亿美元。
So the Philippine debt in 1982 was approximately $26,000,000,000.
你能想象吗？
Can you imagine?
你们的国家欠外国债权人260亿美元，但你们却在同一年决定购买一栋价值7000万美元的建筑。
Your country owes $26,000,000,000 to foreign creditors, but you decide to buy a $70,000,000 building that same year.
你正在收听这部纪录片，这是来自BBC世界服务的革命重述。
You're listening to the documentary, and this is rewriting a revolution from the BBC World Service.
库库，你知道现在几点了吗？
Kuku, guess what time it is?
该到季了
Time for season
六。
six.
该到
Time for
第六季。
season six.
我们进入第六季了。
We're season six.
我是达穆兰塔·孔博，我的女儿可可启发了我创作了这部获奖播客《亲爱的女儿》，来自BBC世界服务。
I'm Damulanta Kombo, and that's my daughter, Coco, the inspiration for my award winning podcast, dear daughter from the BBC World Service.
我们回来了。
And we're back.
我将与一些了不起的人交谈，收集你们来信讲述的故事。
I'll be speaking to some amazing people as I collect your letters telling your stories.
《亲爱的女儿》，做你的妈妈让我对自己有了很多新的认识。
Dear daughter, being your mom has taught me so much about myself.
并且为世界各地的人们提供建议。
And giving advice to people everywhere.
我希望他们能够拥有我深知他们应得的空间，我非常希望赋予他们完全的自主权去实现这一点。
I want them to be able to take the space that I know that they should have, and I would love to give them the complete agency to do that.
在您收听BBC播客的任何平台搜索《亲爱的女儿》。
Search for Dear Daughter wherever you get your BBC podcasts.
《亲爱的女儿》。
Dear Daughter.
美国正在变化，世界也是如此。
America is changing, and so is the world.
但美国正在发生的事情不仅仅是全球动荡的原因。
But what's happening in America isn't just a cause of global upheaval.
它也是正在全球各地发生的动荡的征兆。
It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere.
我是来自华盛顿特区的阿斯马奇利德。
I'm Asmachalid in Washington DC.
我是来自伦敦的特里斯坦·雷德曼，这里是《全球故事》。
I'm Tristan Redman in London, and this is the Global Story.
每个工作日，我们都会为您带来一个关于世界与美国交汇点的故事。
Every weekday, we'll bring you a story from this intersection where the world and America meet.
请在 bbc.com 或您收听播客的任何平台收听。
Listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts.
采访。
The interview.
来自BBC最精彩的对话。
The best conversations coming out of the BBC.
历史上最伟大的网球运动员之一。
One of the greatest tennis players in history.
玛蒂娜·纳芙拉蒂洛娃。
Martina Navratilova.
来自世界各地塑造我们世界的人们。
People shaping our world from all over the world.
音乐传奇人物史蒂维·旺德。
Music icon Stevie Wonder.
从全球领导人
From global leaders
巴西总统路易斯·伊纳西奥·卢拉·达席尔瓦。
The Brazilian president, Luis Ignacio Lula da Silva.
波兰总统卡罗尔·诺沃茨基。
The president of Poland, Carol Novotsky.
美国总统唐纳德·特朗普。
US president Donald Trump.
到文化偶像。
To cultural icons.
两届奥斯卡获奖演员安东尼·霍普金斯爵士。
Two time Oscar winning actor, Sir Anthony Hopkins.
来自BBC世界服务的采访。
The interview from the BBC World Service.
在您收听BBC播客的任何平台收听本节目。
Listen now wherever you get your BBC podcasts.
您正在收听BBC世界服务的纪录片。
You're listening to the documentary from the BBC World Service.
这是一场正在重写的革命。
This is rewriting a revolution.
我是希拉·科罗内尔，纽约哥伦比亚大学新闻学教授。
And I'm Sheila Coronel, a professor of journalism at Columbia University in New York.
美国里根总统的支持只会让马科斯家族更加肆无忌惮。
US president Reagan's support only emboldened the Marcoses.
华盛顿方面认为，只有马科斯能确保美国继续使用在菲律宾的基地，这些基地是全球最大的美国军事设施之一。
Washington believed only Marcos could assure continued access to US bases in The Philippines, which were among the largest US military installations in the world.
1981年，马科斯为安抚反对派和美国政府中的自由派，取消了戒严令，但他仍保留着颁布法令的权力。
In 1981, Marcos lifted martial law to appease the opposition and the liberals in the US government, but he continued to have decree making powers.
总统历史学家兼记者曼努埃尔·奎松三世。
Presidential historian and journalist Manuel Quezon the third.
到1981年他第三次就职时，他已经无人能挑战，所有人都被镇压了。
By the time he had his third inaugural in 1981, he was completely unchallenged and and everyone had been whipped.
接着，他犯下了重大误判。
Then came the great miscalculation.
他赢得了另一个任期，但政府仅存的公信力在1983年遭到重创——当时反对派领袖贝尼尼奥·阿基诺一从美国流亡归来，就在几分钟内遭到暗杀。
He won another term, but what remained of his government's credibility was crippled in 1983 when Benigno Aquino, the opposition leader, was assassinated within minutes of his return from exile in The United States.
马科斯的亲信被广泛认为
Marcos' associates were widely held
是
to be
凶手。
responsible.
这起谋杀案将此前分散的反对力量团结到了一起。
The murder brought together most of the previously disparate forces opposed to the regime.
有两百万人参加了阿基诺的葬礼。
2,000,000 marched in Aquino's funeral.
我当时就在那里，与人群肩并肩地站在一起。
I was there, standing shoulder to shoulder with the multitudes.
沿途看不到警察，人群跟随着灵柩，许多人举着反政府标语，高唱自由之歌。
There were no police to be seen along the route as the crowds, many carrying anti government banners and chanting songs of freedom, followed the coffin.
尽管官方否认，但许多人认为马科斯总统的政府是马尼拉机场刺杀事件的幕后黑手。
Despite official denials, many believe the government of president Marcos was behind the killing at Manila Airport.
菲律宾人民已准备好迎接变革。
Filipinos were ready for change.
马科斯已接受过两次肾脏移植手术。
Marcos had undergone two kidney transplants.
他正在失去控制。
He was losing control.
共产党人的力量正在增强。
The communists were gaining strength.
曾经支持马科斯的中产阶级现在希望他下台。
The middle class that once supported Marcos now wanted him out.
在美国的压力下，马科斯于1986年2月7日宣布举行紧急选举。
Under pressure from The US, Marcos called a snap election on the 02/07/1986.
他在电视摄像机和来自16个国家的44名选举观察员面前公然作弊。
He cheated brazenly in full view of TV cameras and 44 election observers from 16 countries.
回到马尼拉，局势必须有所突破。
Back in Manila, something had to give.
因此，在2月23日，由国防部长和一名高级陆军将军领导的军事叛变者密谋发动政变，但计划败露。
So on the February 23, military rebels led by the defense minister and a top army general plotted a coup but were discovered.
他们担心生命安全，于是聚集在军营并寻求帮助。
Fearful for their lives, they gathered in the military camp and asked for help.
抗议者纷纷前来，许多人手中拿着念珠和宗教圣像。
Protesters came, many with rosary beads and religious icons in their hands.
我立刻给我的电台打了电话。
And immediately, I called my radio station.
因为大家都收听天主教电台，我就成了元帅。
And since everybody was listening to Radio Veritas, I became a field marshal.
马尼拉总主教海梅·辛枢机主教通过天主教电台回应，发出呼吁。
Cardinal Jaime Sin, the archbishop of Manila, responded by making a plea on Veritas, the Catholic radio station.
神父和修女们成功阻止了暴力事件。
The priests and the nuns were able to stop violence.
他们在那里，并不是因为对政治感兴趣，而是为了拯救人们的生命。
They were there not because they're interested in politics, but they were interested in saving the lives of people.
在接下来的三天里，一百万菲律宾人涌上了著名的埃萨大道。
In the next three days, a million Filipinos filled the now famous highway called Edsa.
马科斯和他的家人被困在宫殿里，除了少数忠臣外，已无人相伴。
Marcos and his family were holed up in their palace, abandoned except by a few loyalists.
决定性的一刻是：昨天马科斯给参议员保罗·拉克萨尔特打了个电话，拉克萨尔特是里根的密友，劝他离开。
The decisive moment, a phone call yesterday from Marcos to senator Paul Laxalt, a close Reagan friend who advised him to leave.
电话那头出现了漫长的沉默。
And there was the longest pause on the other end of that phone.
看起来像是最后几分钟。
Seemed last minutes.
最后我终于说：总统先生，您还在吗？
And he finally I said, mister president, are you still there?
最后他回来了，说：是的。
And, finally, he came on, and he says, yes.
我在这里，参议员。
I'm here, senator.
他说：我非常、非常失望。
He says, I'm so very, very disappointed.
第二天，两架美国军用直升机将独裁者及其家人从总统府空运至菲律宾的一个美国空军基地。
The next day, two US military helicopters airlifted the dictator and his family from the Presidential Palace to an American airbase in The Philippines.
从那里，他们被送往檀香山流亡。
From there, they were flown into exile in Honolulu.
人民力量是将她推上台的力量，也是她很大程度上摆脱军方控制的基础。
People power was the force that swept her in and upon which her independence from the military largely depends.
随着胜利后的狂喜逐渐消退，国家根深蒂固的问题再次浮现，阿基诺总统的首要目标必须是应对经济问题。
As post victory euphoria ebbs away and the country's endemic problems loom once again, president Aquino's first objective must be to tackle the economy.
国家的财政空空如也。
The country's coffers were empty.
有人敦促阿基诺拒绝偿还沉重的外债，但她拒绝了。
Some urged Aquino to repudiate the crushing foreign debt, but she refused.
她希望国家能获得世界银行和国际货币基金组织的好感。
She wanted the country to be in the good graces of the World Bank and the IMF.
相反，她成立了总统良政委员会（PCGG），以追回马科斯家族窃取的财富。
Instead, she created the Presidential Commission on Good Government or PCGG to reclaim the Marcos' stolen wealth.
这一努力持续了数十年，至今仍未完成。
The effort took decades unfinished even today.
鲁本·卡兰扎曾在那里担任委员。
Ruben Carranza worked there as a commissioner.
这是独一无二的，因为它是唯一一个专门被授权追查一个家族及其亲信的机构。
It's unique because it's the only agency that is specifically mandated to go after one family and their cronies.
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这是法律规定的。
It's in the law.
我认为，菲律宾为问责制做出的贡献之一，就是能够专门成立一个委员会来追查前腐败独裁者。
And I think it's one of the contributions of The Philippines to accountability that you could just actually create a commission to go after a former corrupt dictator.
你们并没有诉诸常规的问责手段。
You don't resort to normal means of accountability.
独裁是异常的。
Dictatorship is extraordinary.
对他们的正义也应该是异常的。
Justice for them should also be extraordinary.
在流亡期间，马科斯家族利用他们的财富来 destabilize 阿基诺政府。
In exile, the Marcoses used their wealth to destabilize the Aquino government.
有一次，费迪南德·马科斯本人被录音记录下，讨论为他的军事支持者购买坦克和导弹。
In one instance, Ferdinand Marcos himself was caught on tape discussing the purchase of tanks and missiles for his military supporters.
然后在1989年
Then in 1989
统治菲律宾二十年的费迪南德·马科斯在檀香山去世。
Ferdinand Marcos, the ruler of The Philippines for twenty years, has died in Honolulu.
他流亡夏威夷，仅因健康状况不佳才免于因涉嫌贪污巨额资金而受审。
He'd lived in exile in Hawaii, and only his ill health saved him from standing trial on charges of embezzling vast sums of money.
一年后，伊梅尔达在纽约一家法院被裁定无罪，该案涉及艺术品、珠宝和曼哈顿房产的购买。
A year later, Imelda was acquitted on racketeering charges in a New York court, which involved purchases of art, jewelry, and Manhattan properties.
我父亲是伊梅尔达·马科斯的律师。
My father was Imelda Marcos' lawyer.
他长期以来一直是马科斯的支持者，是众多在旧政权下飞黄腾达并继续忠于该家族的人之一。
He had been a longtime Marcos supporter, one of many who had thrived in the old regime and continued to be loyal to the family.
曾经与马科斯家族的关联是一种荣耀，但如今已不再是。
Association with the Marcos' used to be a matter of pride, but no longer.
忠诚发生了转变，友谊破裂，家庭四分五裂，我的家庭也不例外。
Loyalties had shifted, friendships dissolved, families fractured, mine included.
家庭聚会变得越来越紧张。
Family gatherings became increasingly strained.
我不太高兴父亲在纽约和马尼拉之间来回奔波，为伊梅尔达的回归铺路，并确保她回国时不会被逮捕。
I wasn't thrilled that my father was shuttling between New York and Manila, laying the groundwork for Imelda's homecoming and making sure she wouldn't be arrested upon her return.
新政府不希望伊梅尔达回来，但他们也想追回马科斯家族藏在瑞士银行的数百亿美元。
The new government didn't want Imelda back, but they also wanted to recover the hundreds of billions of dollars the Marcoses had squirreled away in Swiss banks.
1986年，瑞士政府下令冻结了马科斯家族的资产。
In 1986, the Swiss government had ordered a freeze on the Marcos assets.
这是一个具有历史意义的决定。
It was a historic decision.
此前，他们曾拒绝冻结被推翻的伊朗沙阿的资产。
They previously had refused to freeze the assets of the deposed Shah of Iran.
1990年，瑞士法院交出了与马科斯家族秘密账户相关的文件，但只有当菲律宾法院能证明这些资金是非法获取时，才会归还资金。
In 1990, the Swiss courts handed over documents related to the Marcos' secret accounts, but they would only give back the funds if Filipino courts could establish these were criminally acquired.
而要做到这一点，菲律宾需要一名被告亲自出现在菲律宾法庭上。
And to do that, The Philippines needed a defendant in person in the Philippine court.
历史学家兼记者曼努埃尔·基松。
Historian and journalist Manuel Quezon.
人权帮助促成了他们的回归，因为瑞士政府的条件要求马科斯夫妇必须返回菲律宾，以应对瑞士政府提出的要求。
Human rights helped make their comeback possible because it was a condition of the Swiss government that meant that the Marcoses could come back to The Philippines to face their charges according to the demands of the Swiss government.
1991年4月11日，距离菲律宾人高呼‘再也不让马科斯回来’几乎六年之后，他们乘坐包机、带着200人的随行队伍风光归来。
And on 11/04/1991, almost six years after Filipinos said never again to the Marcoses, they were back in style in a chartered jet and a 200 person entourage.
在马尼拉机场的停机坪上，马科斯夫人轻抹了一点香槟在耳后以求好运，随后走下舷梯，受到了热烈的欢迎。
To a tumultuous reception, missus Marcos stepped onto the tarmac at Manila Airport after dabbing a little champagne behind her ears for good luck.
她归来是为了面对70项逃税和腐败指控。
She returns to face 70 counts of tax evasion and corruption.
我被定罪不是因为我
I am convicted not because I
我偷窃，而是因为我给予，因为我去爱。
have stolen, because I've given and I have loved.
在这个世界上，我的罪过是什么？
What what is my crime in this world?
我究竟做了什么？
What have I done?
伊梅尔达一踏上祖国的土地，就开始为家族的复出奠定基础。
As soon as Imelda touched home soil, she laid the foundation for her family's restoration.
所有这些在1992年达到了顶点。
All of this comes to a head in 1992.
那是我们第一次后埃德萨总统大选。
That was our first post EDSA presidential election.
这是一场多党选举，前所未有。
It was a multi party election, the first of its kind.
伊梅尔达·马科斯参选了。
Imelda Marcos ran.
马科斯的主要亲信埃杜阿尔多·丹金科·黄参选了。
Eduardo Dandinko Hwangco, the principal lieutenant of Marcos, ran.
但如果他们联手参选，或其中一人退出让位，他们的总票数将超过任何一位代表反马科斯联盟的候选人。
But if they had run together or one had given way to the other, they would have gotten more combined votes than any of the other candidates representing the anti Marcos coalition.
这表明早在1992年，他们的支持基础就已经十分稳固。
It shows you that as early as 1992, their constituency was strong.
现在这本该自然地随着时间推移而消亡。
Now it's one that should naturally have aged itself into extinction.
那发生了什么？
So what happened?
马科斯家族被允许参与政治进程。
The Marcoses were allowed to participate in the political process.
他们做的第一件事，当然是巩固艾米·马科斯在私底下常称作‘伊洛克省大公国’的势力范围。
And the first thing they did, of course, was fortify what what Amy Marcos likes to call in her private moments, the Grand Duchy Of Ilocos Norte.
艾米·马科斯是伊梅尔达的女儿，如今担任菲律宾参议员。
Amy Marcos is Imelda's daughter and now sits as a Filipino senator.
她和她的弟弟费迪南德·马科斯 Jr. 都曾担任过菲律宾北部一个小省——伊洛克省的省长。
Both she and her brother, Ferdinand Marcos junior, have served as governors of Ilocos Norte, a small northern province of The Philippines.
我们多次尝试安排对艾米的采访，但她的团队以日程冲突为由，未能满足我们的请求。
We tried repeatedly to organize an interview with Amy, but her team were unable to meet our requests over what they say were scheduling conflicts.
当然，还有一个深思熟虑、有纪律、跨代际的复兴计划。
And, of course, there was a well thought out, disciplined, multigenerational rehabilitation program.
这一切始于艾米·马科斯建立马科斯总统中心，该中心仅致力于收集马科斯的所有著作，并向学校分发副本。
It started with the establishment by Amy Marcos of the Marcos Presidential Center, which was simply dedicated to collating all the works of Marcos and giving school copies of it.
一位记者给我看了一本练习册，里面的学生在学习书写连笔字，而这些提供给马尼拉大都会以外省份学校的练习册中的例句，没人会注意到。
One journalist showed me a thing where there's exercise books in which students learn to write cursive, and the example sentences in these exercise books that were given to provincial schools outside Metro Manila, so no one notices.
马科斯总统是菲律宾历史上最伟大的总统。
President Marcos was the greatest president The Philippines ever had.
没有人比费迪南德·马科斯更热爱菲律宾。
No one has loved The Philippines more than Ferdinand Marcos.
诸如此类的事情。
Things like that.
我通过YouTube证实，在邦邦·马科斯竞选总统两年前，不知为何，突然开始出现大量视频，显示学校乐队自发演奏1972年独裁时期的国歌。
I I was able to show with YouTube that two years before Bongbong Marcos ran for president, somehow, spontaneously, you start seeing videos of school bands suddenly playing the anthem of the dictatorship from 1972.
在多年无人演奏之后，突然间，全国各地的视频中，年幼的孩子们在城镇广场游行时演奏这首曲子。
After years that no one had played it, but all of a sudden, videos all throughout the country, little children parading in town plazas playing this song.
随后，马科斯 Jr. 竞选团队的首个举动就是推出这首曲子的重金属版本，因为整整一代人已经被灌输得熟悉了这段旋律。
And then the first act of the Marcos Junior campaign is they release a heavy metal version of it because a whole new generation had been primed to recognize the tune.
这首 anthem 或新诞生的歌曲，成为马科斯‘新社会’的听觉宣传工具。
That anthem, or new birth, served as sonic propaganda for Marcos' New Society.
你可以在 YouTube 上找到多个版本，包括高中乐队的演出，或与马科斯家族怀旧视频搭配的混音版。
You can find multiple versions of it on YouTube, featuring performances by high school bands or remixes paired with nostalgic videos of the Marcuses.
这对许多参与人民力量运动的人来说，是完全无法想象的现实。
It's a reality many who participated in People Power never could have imagined.
人民力量之后的几年，不仅仅是马科斯家族的复辟。
What happened in the years after people power was not just a restoration of the Marcoses.
而是一个让其最初得以掌权的体系的复兴。
It was the revival of a system that had allowed them to rise to power in the first place.
一种仿照美国模式的战后精英民主制度。
The postwar elite democracy patterned after that of The United States.
当时，马科斯与科拉松·阿基诺之间，由美国人居中斡旋，进行了一场实质性的谈判；同时，各路领导人也必须各自达成协议，因为很明显，旧政权已不可持续，但新政权仍需保留旧体制的某些元素以推动重启。
There was a negotiation literally on one hand between Marcos and Cory Aquino with the Americans as the brokers, but also between all the different leaders who had to make their own bargains because it was clear that one regime was no longer viable, but there needed to be elements of the old regime to kick start the new one.
这是一场时光倒流。
It was a turning back of the clock.
阿基诺总统任期于1992年结束后，政治家族为争夺权力而出现派系分裂。
After Aquino's presidency ended in 1992, factional fissures emerged as political families vied for power.
一位军事将领、一位电影明星，以及各种政治背景的继承者相继登上最高职位。
A military general, a movie star, and various political heirs of all persuasions rose to the top job.
到2001年，爆发了第二次起义，导致广受欢迎的电影明星总统约瑟夫·埃斯特拉达被推翻。
By 2001, there was a second revolt, which led to the ousting of the popular Joseph Estrada, a movie star turned president.
我和我的同事们曾对他的行为进行过报道，追踪了他用来为多名情妇建造多处豪宅的空壳公司和代名人。
My colleagues and I had reported on him, tracing the shell companies and nominees he had used to build multiple mansions for multiple mistresses.
我们的报道被引用在弹劾指控中，同时还结合了一名举报人的证词，他说曾向总统送去过装满非法赌博大亨现金的公文包。
Our reporting was cited in the impeachment charges along with the testimony of a whistleblower who said he had delivered to the president brief cases of cash from illegal gambling lords.
当弹劾程序陷入僵局时，科拉松和天主教会再次号召人民力量。
When the impeachment proceedings broke down, Corriacchino and the Catholic church once again summoned people power.
人群再次回到EDSA——当年反对马科斯起义的原址。
The crowds returned to EDSA, the site of the original anti Marcos uprising.
这些来自社会底层、愤怒而执着的人群，要求埃斯特拉达下台。
Most limited class, angry and relentless, they demanded Estrada's resignation.
这位前总统已经退出权力舞台，而新总统甚至还没来得及搬进总统府。
The old president has already vanished from power, and the new one hasn't even had time to move into a presidential palace.
我身后这座空置的建筑，应该给其他陷入困境的亚洲领导人敲响警钟。
The empty building behind me should serve as a sobering warning to other embattled Asian leaders.
数月后，那些曾深爱并支持他的穷人再次走向EDSA。
Months later, the poor who loved and supported him marched on EDSA.
警方镇压了这次起义，但分裂已显而易见。
Police quelled the uprising, but the division was clear.
短短五个月内发生了两次政变。
Two revolts in barely five months.
第一次推翻了民粹主义者埃斯特拉达。
The first removed the populist Estrada.
第二次却希望他重新掌权。
The second wanted him back.
最后一次起义标志着我们对人民力量的幻想破灭。
The last revolt marked the end of our illusions about people power.
穷人意识到，人民力量只属于富人和中产阶级。
The poor saw that people power was only for the rich and middle class.
这不过是一个虚构的叙事，用来合法化精英统治。
It was a fiction to legitimize elite rule.
另一方面，富裕阶层也意识到，人民力量同样可以用来对抗他们。
The affluent, on the other hand, realized people power could be wielded against them too.
对于那些幻灭的人而言，移民成了一条出路。
For the disillusioned, migration provided an escape route.
旧中产阶级因无法推动改革，从九十年代起就开始移民。
The old middle class, frustrated by the inability to reform things, emigrate from the nineteen nineties onwards.
这些人曾是七十年代和八十年代反马科斯运动的中坚力量。
These are people who were the backbone of the anti Marcos movement in the seventies and eighties.
他们如今都在海外，他们的孩子也去了国外。
They're all abroad, and their children have gone abroad.
教会俱乐部、学校以及所有那些旧有的社团，如今在菲律宾境外比在菲律宾境内更活跃，因为它们在这里已经不再相关了。
The church club and school, all the old associations are more active outside The Philippines than they are in The Philippines now because they're no longer relevant here.
所以当罗德里戈·杜特尔特出现时，我说他的选民基础就在这里。
So when Rodrigo Duterte came along, I said that's where his constituency comes on.
这些人根本不尊重任何旧有规范，他们认为这些规范不再能提升他们的尊严或赋予自由，反而恰恰相反。
These are people who respect none of the old norms, which they view no longer as means to make them enhance dignity or give liberty, but as the opposite.
是的。
Yes.
出现了一个新的中产阶级。
There is a new middle class.
这个新中产阶级对1986年以来发生的一切都充满蔑视和愤世嫉俗，因为自1986年以来，再也没有能力实现任何重大变革。
It is one profoundly contemptuous and cynical of everything that has happened since 1986 because since 1986, there has been no ability to accomplish any significant change.
然后，有一件事改变了所有局面：互联网。
And then one thing changed everything, the Internet.
因此，他们成功地通过培养新一代人来替代老忠诚派的流失，这一代人不再依赖老忠诚派，而仅仅依靠教科书的分发、YouTube视频的投放，以及在年轻人聚集的地方进行渗透——但真正掌权的人却因年迈而未能意识到，这已是新的战场，直到为时已晚。
So they were able to transition the attrition of the old loyalists by creating a new generation not dependent on the old loyalists, but simply on the placement of textbooks, insertion of videos on YouTube, and again in places where you knew the young people were going, but those actually in power are too old to recognize is the new battlefield until it's too late.
一个90%人口都在线的国家，是模糊历史记忆、为威权复兴铺路的沃土，就像2016年罗德里戈·杜特尔特的当选，他的民粹主义迎合了渴望变革的大众。
A country where 90% of the population is online is fertile ground for fogging historical memory and priming the ground for autocratic resurgence, Like the election of Rodrigo Duterte in 2016, whose populism appealed to the masses craving change.
他向选民承诺，马尼拉湾的鱼会因吞食罪犯的尸体而长得肥壮。
He promised voters that fish in Manila Bay would grow fat feeding on the corpses of criminals.
他是一位迎合许多菲律宾人对民主失望情绪的候选人。
He was a candidate who spoke to many Filipinos' disaffection with democracy.
他承诺要严明纪律。
He promised discipline.
数百万人听进了他的话。
Millions listened.
如果你毁了我的国家，我就杀了你。
If you destroy my country, I will kill you.
菲律宾前总统罗德里戈·杜特尔特将抵达荷兰海牙，面临国际刑事法院发出逮捕令后与其禁毒战争相关的杀人指控。
The former president of The Philippines, Rodrigo Duterte, will be arriving in the Hay in The Netherlands where he will face charges related to killings during his war on drugs that follows the issuing of an arrest warrant by the International Criminal Court.
杜特尔特先生在担任达沃市市长以及总统期间，对毒贩和吸毒者实施了残酷的镇压。
Mister Duterte led a brutal crackdown on drug dealers and users during his time as mayor of the city of Davao and then as president.
他认为在此期间多达三万人被杀，人权组织则指责警方实施了无差别的暴力行为。
He thought as many as 30,000 people were killed during this time with human rights groups accusing the police of indiscriminate violence.
菲律宾总统很少面临问责，但他依然很受欢迎。
It's rare for a Filipino president to face accountability, but he remains popular.
他的女儿兼政治继承人莎拉，目前担任副总统。
Sarah, his daughter and political heir, is currently vice president.
在许多方面，她都像她的父亲。
In many respects, she's like her father.
她现在是接任的头号候选人。
She's now the top contender to succeed.
如今，大多数菲律宾人并没有走上街头，而是在网上表达对当前政治的不满。
And today, rather than take to the streets, a vast majority of Filipinos voice their displeasure with the politics of the day online.
这些正在主导网络的平台，只是放大了人们本已存在的焦虑。
These networks that are taking over online are only amplifying already existing anxieties that people already have.
尼科尔·科拉托是英国伯明翰大学民主治理学教授，专门研究菲律宾这种脆弱和冲突影响环境下民主的运作方式。
Nicole Corrato is a professor of democratic governance at the University of Birmingham in The UK and specializes in how democracy works in fragile and conflict affected environments in The Philippines.
当人民力量运动席卷全国时，她还是个幼儿。
She was a toddler when people power swept through the country.
我们看到，在菲律宾，随着强人总统罗德里戈·杜特尔特上台，这些平台如何被操纵，如何被用来操控影响行动，放大特定信息以说服选民采取某种行为。
What we've seen, especially in the context of The Philippines, in the rise of the strongman president Rodrigo Duterte to power, we've seen how these platforms can actually be gamed, how they can be controlled by influence operations that amplify particular kinds of information that can persuade voters to act a certain way.
为了推行他的禁毒战争，杜特尔特重启了马科斯警察国家遗留下来的死亡小组和监控网络。
To fight his war on drugs, Duterte cranked up the death squads and surveillance networks that remained from the Marcos police state.
他和他的女儿莎拉还支持了费迪南德·邦邦·马科斯 Jr. 的总统竞选。
He and his daughter, Sarah, also supported the presidential campaign of Ferdinand Bong Bong Marcos junior.
通过这样做，他们帮助完成了马科斯家族的复辟。
In doing so, they helped complete the Marcos restoration.
费迪南德·马科斯 Jr. 特别有趣的一点是，他并非那种老派的民粹主义煽动者。
What's particularly interesting about Ferdinand Marcos junior is it's not old school type populist demagoguery.
因此，他的主要主题是团结。
So its main theme is unity.
他真正利用的是当下流行的数字文化中的‘有毒正能量’，对吧？
What it actually takes advantage of is this very popular digital culture of toxic positivity right?
当人们指责马科斯家族篡改历史、进行历史修正主义，回避戒严时期的人权侵害和腐败问题时，我们观察到的不仅是虚假信息，而是他们实际上在转移注意力，说：‘不不，我们必须向前看。'
Like it's all about good vibes and so when people accuse the Marquesses of changing history, of historical revisionism, of not talking about the human rights abuses and the corruption during martial law, what we observed is it's not just disinformation, but what they actually do is to distract people and just say no no but we have to move on.
我们需要向前看。
We need to look forward.
我们需要愈合。
We need to heal.
这是一个非常引起共鸣的主题，尤其是在经历了如此两极分化的杜特尔特时代之后。
And that was such a resonant theme especially coming from the Duterte era which was so polarizing.
那段时期太黑暗了。
It was so dark.
我认为这是马科斯竞选团队的高明之处。
So I think that was the genius of the Marcos campaign.
他们非常敏锐地把握住了政治氛围。
It really spotted the political mood quite cleverly.
对马科斯独裁时期暴行的全面清算至今尚未完成，更不用说它遗留下来的国家暴力遗产了。
A full accounting of the abuses of the Marcos dictatorship has yet to be made, not to mention the legacy of state violence it left behind.
在我这一代，甚至比我更年轻的几代人中，我们对暴力的经历是毒品战争，是杜特尔特的毒品战争，而这场战争得到了许多菲律宾人的支持。
In my generation and actually generations younger than me, our experience of violence is the drug war, is Duterte's drug war, which was supported by many Filipinos.
从这个意义上说，这再次体现了菲律宾的矛盾之处。
So in that sense, again this is the contrasting story of The Philippines.
一方面，我们为自己国家和平更替领导人、未发一枪而自豪。
On one hand we pride ourselves as coming from a country that changed leaders peacefully without a single shot fired.
但另一方面，我们也是那个选举、支持并继续爱戴一位总统的国家，他公开宣称要杀死所有吸毒者。
But on the other hand, we are also the country that elected, supported and continued to love a president who basically said he will kill all addicts.
在我们国家对暴力的认同上，存在着一个尚未解决的矛盾。
There's a contradiction there in terms of how we appreciate violence in our country that is still unresolved.
去年三月，我在纽约家中观看了杜特尔特在马尼拉被捕的视频。
Last March, I watched from my home in New York video footage of Duterte's arrest in Manila.
我简直不敢相信。
I couldn't believe it.
自1965年马科斯首次掌权以来，从未有人因严重侵犯人权而被起诉，更不用说自1965年以来有人因此定罪或入狱。
Since 1965, when Marcos first took power, no one had been charged with gross human rights violations, much less convicted or spent time in jail for any gross human rights violations since 1965.
那已经有多少年了？
So how many years has that been?
三十五加二十五。
Thirty five plus twenty five.
查克·克里斯安塔是人权侵犯受害者纪念委员会的执行主任，这是一个由政府资助的机构，旨在更好地理解和纪念菲律宾历史上专制统治下的暴行。
Chuck Crisanta is executive director of the Human Rights Violations Victims Memorial Commission, a government funded body designed to better understand and commemorate the abuses of autocracy in Philippine history.
这造就了一种有罪不罚的文化——你可以公然杀人、掠夺而不受惩罚，直到2025年3月11日，我国第一位前总统被送往海牙。
And that creates a culture of impunity, that you can get away literally with murder, with plunder, except last 03/11/2025 when the first person, first former president of our country was sent to The Hague.
这是第一次有人因严重侵犯人权而被追究责任。
That's the first time that someone is now being held accountable for gross human rights violations.
费迪南德·马科斯所承诺的，以及四十年后杜特尔特所承诺的，并不新鲜。
What Ferdinand Marcos offered and what Duterte offered forty years later were not new.
通过恐惧维持秩序，通过暴力实现纪律。
Order through fear, discipline through violence.
这是一种旧殖民时代的承诺：用铁腕驯服混乱。
This was the old colonial promise that the unruly could be tamed by a firm hand.
菲律宾的民主是一种殖民强加的产物。
Democracy in The Philippines was a colonial imposition.
美国人将此作为独立的条件强加给我们。
The Americans decreed it as a condition for independence.
我们的精英利用它来维持自己的统治。
Our elites used it to perpetuate their rule.
这就是为什么我们对民主的关系如此混乱。
That's why our relationship to democracy is so messed up.
它一直是我们既鄙视又渴望的东西。
It's always been something we both disdained and desired.
这确实是一件非常不幸的事，因为我们试图在菲律宾推行美国式的民主，但这完全行不通，因为我们这里贫富差距极大，中间阶层极少。
It was really a very unfortunate thing because we tried to adapt here in The Philippines the American democracy, which didn't work at all because we have the very rich and the very poor and very little in between.
卡洛斯·皮罗莫洛，马科斯时期的前外交部长，1974年接受BBC采访时说。
Carlos Piromolo, a former foreign minister under Marcos, speaking to the BBC in 1974.
十多年后，我愿意相信民主事业。
More than a decade later, I was willing to believe in the democracy project.
但自那以后，一场旨在推动政治与社会变革的革命，已被我们国家长期深陷的旧问题——家族统治和寡头权力——所掩盖。
But since then, a revolution designed to usher in political and social transformation has been eclipsed by the same old problems our country has been mired in for too long, dynastic and oligarchic power.
腐败、不公和有罪不罚依然盛行。
Corruption, injustice, and impunity still prevail.
然而，尽管如此，无论我们身在何处，都不能忘记这一点。
Yet despite all that, wherever we are, we cannot forget this.
1986年是一个充满惊奇与可能的年代。
1986 was a time of astonishment and possibility.
我们感受到历史正在被创造，而我们自己也参与其中。
We had a sense that history was being made and that we had a hand in its making.
在EDSA，我被普通人的勇气与创造力深深打动。
On EDSA, I was moved by the courage and creativity of ordinary people.
我亲眼见证了人民力量的解放潜力。
I saw for myself the liberating potential of people power.
我愿意相信，这种潜力依然存在。
I like to think that potential is still there.
尼科尔·库拉托属于人民力量之后成长起来的第一代人，如今她自己也有了孩子。
Nicole Kurato belongs to the first generation to grow up after people power and now has a child of her own.
我问她，她为我们国家设想了怎样的未来。
I asked her what future she imagined for our country.
我们可以想象一种更具创造力、更富响应力的民主，它不一定依赖政治精英，而是由更多基层参与推动，因为我们从1986年后的菲律宾民主中学到的主要教训是：我们不能信任我们的政治精英。
We can imagine a democracy that is more creative, that is more responsive, that is not necessarily reliant on political elites but one that is driven by more grassroots type participation because the main lesson that we should learn from post nineteen eighty six democracy in The Philippines is that we cannot trust our political elites.
因此，我对未来的理想化解读是，也许到那时，菲律宾的民主将真正由普通人掌控。
So my idealistic interpretation of the future is maybe Philippine democracy, hopefully, by then will be genuinely controlled by ordinary people.
‘重写革命’由我，希拉·科罗内尔呈现。
Rewriting a revolution was presented by me, Sheila Coronel.
制片人是艾伦·韦登，音效设计由罗文·毕晓普负责。
The producer was Alan Wedon, and sound design was by Rowan Bishop.
本节目是由2 Degrees West为BBC世界服务制作的。
This has been a 2 Degrees West production for the BBC World Service.
Koko，你知道现在几点了吗？
Koko, guess what time it is?
该是第六季的时候了。
Time for season six.
该播第六季了。
Time for season six.
该播第六季了。
Time for for season six.
我是达米兰塔·康博，这是我的女儿科科，她是我
I'm Damilanta Kombo, and that's my daughter, Koko, the inspiration I'm
如果我自己都不确定的话。
if not sure myself.
并向各地的人们提供建议。
And giving advice to if people everywhere.
我希望他们能够拥有我深知他们应得的空间，我非常希望赋予他们完全的自主权来做到这一点。
I want them to be able to take the space that I know that they should have, and I would love to give them the complete agency to do that.
在您收听BBC播客的地方，搜索《亲爱的女儿》。
Search for dear daughter wherever you get your BBC podcasts.
亲爱的女儿。
Dear Daughter.
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