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本BBC播客在英国境外由广告支持。
This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside The UK.
我是尼娜·赫鲁晓娃，1962年苏联领导人尼基塔·赫鲁晓夫的曾孙女。
I am Nina Khrushcheva, the great granddaughter of Nikita Khrushchev, the leader of the Soviet Union in 1962.
我是马克斯·肯尼迪，美国总统约翰·F·肯尼迪的侄子。
And I'm Max Kennedy, the nephew of US president John F Kennedy.
我们将探讨历史上那个令人毛骨悚然的时刻。
We explore what was a terrifying moment in history.
古巴导弹危机的故事。
The story of the Cuban Missile Crisis.
世界曾距离核战争有多近。
How close the world came to nuclear war.
以及他们如何将世界从悬崖边缘拉回。
And what they had to do to pull it back from the brink.
炸弹、肯尼迪与赫鲁晓夫。
The bomb, Kennedy and Khrushchev.
在您获取BBC播客的任何平台搜索‘炸弹’节目。
Search for the bomb wherever you get your BBC podcasts.
《能源宵禁音乐时刻》现已在Audible上线收听。
The energy curfew music hour is available to listen now on Audible.
该节目在纽约市Moneta Lane剧院现场录制， 为您呈现艺术家以前所未录的方式演绎他们钟爱的音乐。
Recorded live in front of audience at the Moneta Lane Theater in New York City, the energy curfew music hour brings you the artist you love making their music in never before recorded ways.
纯原声、全协作，所有音乐人携手共创。
All acoustic, all collaborative, with all hands on the musical deck.
由我和我的搭档Punch Brothers podcast团队主持，随时来聆听世界上最具创意的 的现场音乐。
Hosted by me and my fellow punch brothers, come hear some of world's most inventive live music whenever you wanna listen.
在您获取播客的平台搜索《能源宵禁音乐时刻》，或在Audible上享受无广告收听体验。
Find the energy curfew music hour wherever you get your podcasts or listen ad free on Audible.
祝大家黑暗日快乐。
Happy dark day, y'all.
你好。
Hello.
您正在收听的是BBC国际频道的纪录片。
You're listening to the documentary from the BBC World Service.
我是卡罗琳·斯蒂尔，欢迎来到《工程师探索人体》。
I'm Caroline Steele, and welcome to The Engineers Exploring the Human.
工程学正在改变医学。
Engineering is changing medicine.
在神经科学领域，脑部植入物正将思维转化为语言。
In neuroscience, brain implants are translating thoughts into words.
在药物治疗方面，一项新技术可能通过血液中的气泡将药物输送到身体的特定区域。
In medication, a new technology may deliver drugs to targeted areas of the body via bubbles in the bloodstream.
与此同时，可摄入电子设备正在研发中，旨在通过肠道信号对抗疾病。
Meanwhile, ingestible electronics are being made to fight disease with signals from the gut.
为了深入了解，我们前往伦敦皇家地理学会，并与我们的合作伙伴——1851年皇家委员会一起，汇聚了三位世界领先的开拓者，他们正以新方式探索人体，在生物医学领域开辟新天地。
To find out more, we went to the Royal Geographical Society in London, and with our partners, the Royal Commission eighteen fifty one, we brought together three world leading pioneers who are navigating the body in new ways and breaking fresh ground in biomedicine.
为了帮助我们探索这些杰出工程师的工作，现场观众也加入了我们的讨论。
And to help us explore the work of these fascinating engineers, we were joined by a live audience.
谢谢。
Thank you.
外科手术可能具有侵入性。
Surgery can be invasive.
药丸是一种钝器。
Pills are a blunt tool.
但如果我们能借用身体的神经通路，通过电信号轻微调节它对多发性硬化症或糖尿病的反应呢？
But what if we could borrow the body's neural pathways and electrically nudge its response to MS or diabetes?
如果我们能引导药物通过静脉精确送达需要它们的部位呢？
And what if we could guide drugs through our veins to deliver them to exactly where they're needed?
瘫痪可能导致某些人患上闭锁综合征，使他们无法交流。
Paralysis can leave some people with locked in syndrome, where they can't communicate.
如果有一种非侵入性的方法将他们的思想转化为语言呢？
What if there was a non invasive way to turn their thoughts into words?
多亏了这三位世界领先的工程师们，这些设想正在成为新的现实。
Thanks to our three world leading engineers, these scenarios are becoming new realities.
汤姆·奥克斯利，来自澳大利亚，是墨尔本医学院的神经工程学教授级研究员。
Tom Oxley, originally from Australia, is a neural engineer and professorial fellow at Melbourne Medical School.
他同时是Synchron公司的创始CEO，该公司已成功为全球10名患者植入了脑机接口。
He is also founding CEO of Synchron, which has successfully implanted brain computer interfaces in 10 patients worldwide.
埃莉诺·斯特赖德来自英国。
Elinor Stride is from The UK.
她是牛津大学生物材料学教授，专攻靶向药物递送微型装置的研发。
She is Professor of Biomaterials at the University of Oxford, specialising in the creation of tiny devices for targeted drug delivery.
她创新的通过血流气泡递送药物的技术将于今年晚些时候进入人体试验阶段。
Her innovation of delivering drugs via bubbles in the bloodstream is going to human trials later this year.
哈利勒·拉马迪来自阿拉伯联合酋长国。
Khalil Ramadi is from The United Arab Emirates.
他是纽约大学生物工程学助理教授。
He is assistant professor of bioengineering at New York University.
他设计的电子胶囊药丸可通过肠道向大脑传递电信号刺激，目前正在阿布扎比拉马迪实验室进行先进神经工程与转化医学研究开发。
His electrocuticle pill, designed to deliver nudges from the gut to the brain, is being developed at his Ramadi lab for advanced neuroengineering and translational medicine in Abu Dhabi.
请大家和我一起欢迎他们所有人。
Please do join me in welcoming them all.
埃莉诺，让我们先从你开始。
Eleanor, let's start with you first.
你进入生物医学领域的途径有些非传统，对吧？
You've had a somewhat unconventional route into biomedicine, right?
你最初学的是艺术，后来却进入工程领域并在大学攻读工程学。
You studied art and ended up going into engineering and studying engineering at university.
你最终研究的是气泡的物理学原理。
You ended up ultimately looking at the physics of bubbles.
你是怎么
How did you
怎么到那里的？
get there?
我当时在做超声波成像，不过是对石油管道进行成像，因为那时我在英国海事技术公司实习。
I was doing ultrasound imaging, but actually of oil pipes because I was working, for British Maritime Technology as an intern at the time.
纯属运气，新来的放射科主任当时正在寻找懂超声波的物理学家。
Pure luck, new head of radiology came looking for physicists who understood ultrasound.
气泡被用于超声波成像，它们被注入血流中，因为能显著增强图像效果——气泡比血细胞反射超声波的能力强得多，这样就能看清血液流向。
So bubbles are used in ultrasound imaging, they're injected into your bloodstream because they make the images better because they reflect the ultrasound much more strongly than blood cells so you can see where blood is flowing.
但他们当时有点担心安全性问题，因为大家都知道，如果气泡进入血流可能会造成非常严重的后果。
But they were a little bit worried about safety cause as many people I'm sure know if you put bubbles into the bloodstream it can be very very bad news.
这便成了我的博士课题，直到x年后的今天我仍在研究气泡。
So that became my PhD and I'm still playing with bubbles x years later.
谢谢。
Thank you.
Khalil，你对大脑工程的研究兴趣让你转而关注肠道。
Khalil your interest in engineering the brain led you to look at the gut.
有些人可能会觉得这个跨越很意外。
Some people might find that jump surprising.
我理解这种转变的缘由。
I understand where that comes from.
你知道，我们传统上认为大脑是完全被头骨包裹的器官。
You know, we traditionally think about the brain as being this organ that is completely encapsulated by the skull.
但显然我们的身体各处几乎都有神经元。
But we obviously have neurons pretty much everywhere in our body.
它们支配着我们大部分的组织。
They innervate most of the tissues that we have.
说到你的观点，卡罗琳，实际上这真的很有趣。
And to your point, Caroline, actually, it was really interesting.
我花了五年博士时间试图制造脑部植入物，虽然不如汤姆待会儿要介绍的那种精妙，但我们在努力把植入物做得尽可能小。
I spent five years of my PhD trying to basically make brain implants, not as elegant as the one Tom is gonna tell us about later, but making implants as small as possible.
简单来说，我们目前的脑部植入物大概有筷子那么粗，相当大，所以我们真正专注于如何把它们做得更小。
Just to give you a bit of a sense, our current brain implants are kind of the size of a chopstick, pretty big, and so we were really focusing on trying to make them smaller.
最终我们成功将其缩小到大约一根头发的粗细。
And so we managed to get them down to about the size of a hair.
就在那时，我有过两次谈话，这些谈话确实把我们推向了这个研究方向。
And at that point, I had two conversations that really sort of nudged us in this direction.
第一位患者非常理解地说，我不在乎你把它做得多小。
The first was with patients who very understandably said, I don't care how small you make it.
如果需要在头骨上开洞，那我不要。
If it needs a hole in my skull, I don't want it.
我对此深表同情。
And I sympathize with that.
与此同时，我们去咨询了神经外科医生，得到的答复是：我们不在乎。
And at the same time, we went and talked to neurosurgeons, and we were told, we don't care.
我们正在钻孔。
We're making a hole.
我们不妨把它们做大些。
We might as well make them large.
所以我们基本上持有这两种不同观点，它们本质上都在说：不管你做得有多小都没关系。
So we and so we essentially had these two different viewpoints that basically said, doesn't matter how small you make them.
这反而让我开始思考：人体还有哪些部位拥有大量神经元，可能成为治疗目标？
What that led me to focus instead is thinking, well, where else in the body do we have this huge population of neurons that we might actually be able to target for therapeutic purposes?
这引导我们关注肠道。
And that led us to the gut.
在我们领域，肠道被通俗地称为'小脑'。
And so colloquially, the gut is known in our field as the quote unquote little brain.
它拥有仅次于大脑的人体第二大神经元数量。
It has the second largest number of neurons in our body after our brain.
实际上，即使这些神经元与大脑断开连接，你的肠道仍能正常运作。
And, essentially, you can disconnect these neurons from the brain, and they actually your gut can still function.
你仍然可以消化食物。
You can still digest things.
虽然饥饿感和饱腹感会减弱，但基本功能仍在。
You can still you don't feel hungry quite as well or feel full.
部分反馈机制会缺失，但肠道完全可以依靠自己的'小脑'独立运作。
Some of that feedback is lost, but at least the gut is able to function entirely with its own little brain.
哇。
Wow.
从工程学角度来看，这确实很吸引我们，因为突然间就不存在漏洞了。
From an engineering standpoint, that's also really attractive to us because all of a sudden, there is no hole.
对吧？
Right?
我们每天都会吞服治疗性药丸，这些药丸会直接接触布满神经元的肠道内壁。
You we swallow pills every day for therapeutic purposes, and those pills basically come into contact with the gut lining, which has all the neurons.
于是我们想，或许这正是我们能接触到这些神经元的途径之一。
And so we thought maybe that's one way that we could actually get at these neurons.
非常巧妙。
Very clever.
谢谢。
Thank you.
汤姆，你首次接触闭锁综合征患者的经历启发了后续所有研究。
Tom, your first experience of a patient with locked in syndrome went on to inspire the rest of your work.
能详细说说吗？
Could you tell me a bit about that?
是的。
Yeah.
我从事脑机接口（BCI）领域的研究，具体是可植入式BCI。
So I work in the field of brain computer interfaces, BCI, implantable BCI.
有一家非常著名的公司你可能听说过。
There's a very famous company you've probably heard of.
虽然有一位著名企业家在推动这个领域发展，但实际上我们从事这项工作的时间要稍长一些。
We're a famous entrepreneur driving this field forward, but we've actually been doing this, a little bit longer.
正如卡利尔所说，通过颅骨钻孔进入大脑存在挑战，部分原因是人们不愿意这样做，但更重要的是能做这种手术的地方不多，而且侵入性更强。
And pulling on what Kalil said, which is there are challenges with getting into the brain through a hole in the skull, partly because people don't want that, but probably more importantly because there aren't many places that you can get that done and it's more invasive.
因此我们开始了一项使命，寻找一种在不干扰头部和身体的自然结构的情况下将电子设备送入大脑的方法。
So we set out on a mission to find a way to deliver electronics into the brain without disturbing the local natural architecture of of the of the head and the body.
没错。
And yeah.
在我早期的临床职业生涯中，接受神经科培训时，我遇到了一位与我现今年龄相仿的四十出头的年轻男性，他有一个三口之家，
So I in my early clinical career, in my neurology training, I had a young man around my age now, early forties, who had a family of three, and he had a stroke.
这次中风实际上是脑干中一个名为脑桥的微小区域发生了小中风，该区域负责传递所有运动神经纤维离开大脑。
And the stroke was actually a tiny stroke in a part of the brain stem called the pons that carries all the motor fibers out of the brain.
大约20%的大脑功能用于控制肌肉运动。
About 20% of your brain is made up around controlling the movement of your muscles.
我正在用嘴说话。
I'm using my mouth.
我正在用身体动作。
I'm using my body.
如果切断这些神经纤维，你就无法控制身体，但大脑的其他部分仍在正常工作。
And if you cut that fiber, then you can't control your body, but the the rest of your brain is is working.
这种情况非常可怕，而且至今仍在发生。
And it was horrific because and that's still happening now.
对于严重中风患者，目前还没有有效的治疗方法。
There's no therapy for people who have major strokes.
对于受损的神经系统，目前也没有治疗手段。
There's no treatment for broken nervous systems.
因此我认为脑机接口技术的最大希望在于，它能绕过已经失效的身体部位，直接连接仍然活跃的大脑。
So I think the great hope with BCI is that this technology can bypass the failed body where the brain is still active.
非常聪明。
Very clever.
谢谢你，汤姆。
Thank you, Tom.
埃莉诺，你开发了一种新的药物递送方法，因为传统的药片和注射方式效率不高，是这样吗？
Eleanor, you've developed a new approach to drug delivery because the conventional pills and injections isn't super efficient, is that right?
没错。
That's right.
如果你服用药物或接受注射，药物会遍布全身。
So if you take a pill or you have an injection, you are putting the drug everywhere in your body.
血液负责输送物质，对于食物和氧气来说是好事，但不幸的是这意味着真正到达特定靶点的药物量不到1%。
Your bloodstream is there to carry material around, if it's food and oxygen is a good thing, unfortunately that means the amount of a drug that actually makes it to a particular target site is less than 1%.
这个剂量可能不够，而且显然其他组织也在吸收药物，对于治疗癌症等毒性很强的药物来说，这会导致非常严重的副作用。
That aim might not be enough and obviously the rest of your tissue is absorbing that drug and with very toxic drugs such as the use for treating cancer that can give you very severe side effects.
针对这个问题，气泡可能是一种解决方案，对吧？
And one solution for that might be bubbles, right?
为什么气泡能成为解决方案呢？
Why are bubbles a solution?
这正是我们所期望的。
Well that's what we're hoping.
实际上我们正在将气泡重新设计为药物递送系统。
So what we're actually doing is repurposing bubbles as drug delivery systems.
这些是微小的气体泡泡，尺寸约为人类发丝的五十分之一，因此能安全通过血管。
So these are tiny little bubbles of gas, they're about a fiftieth of a human hair so they can safely go through your blood vessels.
由于它们极其微小，我们需要通过蛋白质外壳或生物相容性材料来稳定结构，同时用这种外壳包裹药物。
Because they are so tiny we have to stabilize them so they've got an outer coating of a protein or some very biocompatible material And we use that to also encapsulate drugs.
这种气体小球会随血液流动，药物暂时不发挥作用，直到我们用超声波在靶向位置爆破气泡释放药物——这样就能让更多药物精准到达目标区域，同时降低对身体的伤害风险。
So you've got this little ball of gas, it travels through the bloodstream, the drug doesn't do anything, and then we focus the ultrasound at the target site to break the bubble open and we release the drug just in that So we're hoping to get much more of the drug to the right spot and minimize the risk to the rest of the body.
明白了，气泡会随血液循环流动，但你们只在精确位置爆破，这样就不会让潜在有害物质扩散到全身各处。
Okay, so the bubbles travel all the way around the body but you just burst them at the exact right point so you're not sort of exposing everywhere something potentially harmful.
正是如此。
Exactly.
非常巧妙。
Very clever.
汤姆，你的脑部植入物叫做Stentrode，它能检测大脑活动的变化。
Tom, your brain implant is called Stentrode, and it detects changes in brain activity.
和埃莉诺一样，你也在利用我们的血管系统。
And like Eleanor, you're making use of our blood vessels.
你能告诉我你们是如何以非侵入方式将这个植入物放入人脑的吗？
Could you tell me about the noninvasive way that you get this implant into people's brains?
好的。
Yeah.
运动皮层是大脑的控制中枢，大脑控制运动的方式已被充分研究。
So the motor cortex command center of the brain, the brain is pretty well understood in the way it controls movement.
如果在特定脑区上方放置足够小的传感器——有些区域控制嘴巴，有些控制手部，有些控制脚部，还有些控制身体其他部位。
So if you have a small enough sensor above a certain region of the brain, there's a part that controls your mouth, part controls your hand, part controls your foot, part controls various parts of your body.
如果你在大脑那个区域放置一个传感器，你会看到大脑的电压电位看起来像一场闪电风暴。
So if you have a sensor over that part of the brain, you see the brain looks like a lightning storm in voltage potential.
所以这是大脑中的电活动。
So it's electrical activity in the brain.
通过电压传感器检测到这些信号后，你可以训练一个算法来识别：哦，在那个瞬间，你正试图说‘张开和握紧你的手’。
So detected with a voltage sensor, you can then train an algorithm to know that, oh, in that moment, you're trying to say open and close your hand.
一旦你训练好算法，就能提取这些信号并通过蓝牙发送指令，比如控制屏幕上的光标移动或进行屏幕选择。
Once you've trained an algorithm on that, you can then pull it out and send commands, like, through Bluetooth to a system that would push a cursor around a screen or make selections on a screen.
我想每个人都体验过丢失手机的感觉。
I think everyone knows what it feels like to lose your phone.
你会突然变得手足无措。
You suddenly become incapacitated.
当一个人瘫痪时，就会变得非常依赖他人。
When you become paralyzed, you become very dependent on other people.
所以我们正尝试用这项技术帮助他们重获生活自主权。
So we're trying to use the technology and able to restore that independence in their life.
你们如何以非侵入性的方式实现这一点？
How do you do that in a not very invasive way?
因为直觉上听起来，在大脑顶部的静脉中植入设备，这听起来相当具有侵入性。
Because sort of instinctively hearing, you know, device in a vein on the top of your brain, that sounds like it's gonna be pretty invasive.
你们采用什么方式植入它？
What's the way that you insert it?
我们的第一代产品仅针对最安全、最大且最易接近的血管——上矢状窦，即位于大脑中央的那条血管。
So our first generation is just targeting the safest, largest, most accessible blood vessel, which is called the superior sagittal sinus, the one running down the middle.
所以我们有点像在血管中投放卫星，以在大脑内部建立通信系统。
And so we're kind of almost like dropping satellites in the blood vessels to create telecommunication systems inside the brain.
但你们不需要直接将设备穿过颅骨植入，对吧？
But you don't have to put the device sort of directly through the skull, do you?
你们可以通过身体的其他部位进行操作。
You can go through a different part of the body.
是这样吗？
Is that right?
是的。
Yeah.
。
So we enter the jugular vein in the neck, thread the device up through a catheter, and then connect the lead that's coming out of the neck to a device that looks like a pacemaker box that sits under the skin in the chest and communicates the brain information out of the body.
我听过你称它为大脑的后门。
I've I've heard you call it the backdoor of the brain.
嗯，这个领域正在开创神经介入的新方法。
Well, there's this field of neuro intervention being pioneered.
这在医学领域相当新颖。
It's quite new in medicine.
事实上，过去十年间的一项突破意味着，如果你中风并需要清除导致中风的脑部血栓，现在可以通过导管直达脑部进行治疗。
And in fact, there's been a breakthrough in the last ten years that has meant that if you have a stroke and you need to get the blood clot out of your brain that's caused the stroke, you can now have that therapy done through a catheter that's fed up into the brain.
因此这项技术在最近十年迅速发展，令人难以置信地成为有史以来最有效的中风治疗方法。
So that has exploded over the last ten years and incredibly the most effective therapy for stroke ever.
但这也催生了成千上万名能够实施这些手术的专业人员。
But what that's now created is a whole many thousands of people who can now perform these procedures.
这正是七八十年代心脏医学领域发生的事——用支架治疗心脏病，现在治疗瓣膜问题也不再需要开胸手术。这种革命花了些时间才进入脑科领域，但现在它终于来了。
And so this is exactly what happened through the seventies and eighties with cardiac medicine for treating heart disease with stents, treating valves now that previously required open heart surgery, that kind of revolution took a while to come to the brain, but now it's coming to the brain.
我认为脑机接口将成为首个证明，展示如何利用这些技术以可规模化推广的方式植入传感器。
And I think BCI is going to be the first demonstration that you can use those techniques to deliver sensors in a way that is attractive for scale.
你说的BCR是指脑机接口吗？
And by BCR, you mean brain computer interface?
是的。
Yes.
好的，谢谢。
Great, thank you.
Khalil，如果Tom用了进入大脑的后门，你的方法同样出人意料。
And Khalil, if Tom used the backdoor to the brain, your way is sort of similarly surprising.
能谈谈早期那些显示通过消化系统影响大脑潜力的实验吗？
Could you tell me a bit about the early experiments which showed potential for influencing the brain via the digestive system?
电疗并不新鲜。
Electricity is not new.
在六七十年代，心脏起搏器取得巨大成功后，科学家们对还能将这些电刺激器用于哪些领域感到非常兴奋。
In the sixties and seventies, after cardiac pacemakers became quite successful and scientists were all excited about where else could they put these electrical stimulators.
他们将目标锁定在一种名为胃轻瘫的特定疾病上。
And they targeted a specific disease called gastroparesis.
胃轻瘫是指胃排空延迟。
So gastroparesis is delayed gastric emptying.
简单来说，就是你的胃蠕动不足。
Basically, your stomach is not pumping enough.
于是他们想，既然能让心脏跳动，或许也能让胃部蠕动。
And so they said, well, if we can make the heart pump, maybe we could make the stomach pump.
他们确实做到了，但此后反复验证发现，这并不能加速胃部蠕动。
And they did it, And repeatedly since then, we have found that it does not do anything, that it does not make the stomach pump faster.
然而，这确实让患者感觉好转。
However, it makes people feel better.
所谓感觉好转，是指患者报告恶心呕吐症状减轻——这两种症状都与神经传导机制有关。
And when I say feel better, it means they were reporting lower symptoms of nausea and vomiting, and both of those are sort of neural mediated symptoms.
我们大脑中有一个微小区域主要负责调节这个功能。
There's a tiny zone in our brain that basically regulates that.
对我们来说这很有趣，因为我们想到，或许不需要植入整个起搏器就能产生这种效果，也许可以通过药丸来实现。
For us, it was interesting because we said, well, maybe instead of having a whole pacemaker implanted that could elicit this effect, maybe we could do it through a pill.
这个区别相当重要，因为你基本上是在讨论从不同侧面作用于同一组织。
The difference is kinda significant because you're basically talking about targeting the same tissue but from different sides.
如果从内部进入，你会接触到黏膜表层。
So if you go on the inside, you have your sort of mucosal surface.
那里面的环境有点脏。
Things are kind of dirty in there.
如果通过手术进入，你会到达肌肉层。
If you go in surgically, you get to the muscular side.
于是我们做了一系列早期实验，开始对小块胃组织进行电刺激，然后观察不同胃肠激素的血液浓度。
And so we did a series of early experiments, and we started just zapping little pieces of stomach, and then we looked at blood levels of different GI hormones.
结果非常有趣地发现，有一种叫做胃饥饿素的激素出现了显著增长。
And the one that popped out really interestingly was this robust increase in a hormone called ghrelin.
所以胃饥饿素是一种促进食欲的激素。
So ghrelin is a hunger promoting hormone.
你只要咬一口食物，它的水平就会直接降到零。
The minute you take a bite of something, it tanks all the way to zero.
然后随着你越来越饿，或者距离上一餐的时间越来越长，胃饥饿素水平会上升，提醒你去进食。
And then as you get hungrier and hungrier or more time has elapsed since your last meal, ghrelin goes up telling you to go eat.
我们能够向胃部施加这种刺激，在短期内使胃饥饿素水平反复且显著地升高，这确实...我想这验证了我们的一些方法。
We were able to deliver this stimulus to the stomach and get repeated and robust increases in the short term of this hormone ghrelin, which was really, you know, I think validating some of our approach.
所以这就促使你们创造了那个药丸，那个叫Flash的小装置？
And so that led you to create your pill, your little device called Flash.
那它长什么样？
So what's it look like?
能给我们描述一下吗？
Could you kind of paint a bit of a picture for us?
好的。
Yeah.
我相信观众中有些人会服用补充剂。
So if you I'm sure some people in the audience take supplements.
如果你们有人服用过omega-3胶囊，可以想象它大概就是那个尺寸，只不过里面装的不是化学物质，而是电子元件。
If any of you take your omega three capsules, then think of it as about that size, but instead of containing chemicals, it contains electronics.
外部环绕着圆周状缠绕的电极，其实就是些细小的金属线。
And so on the outside are circumferentially wound electrodes, basically tiny metal wires.
内部装有电池和一些电子元件，主要用于调节你接收到的脉冲波形。
And inside, we have a battery, some electronics to basically shape what the pulse that you, receive.
这些微电流刺激基本上感觉不到。
There are, like, micro zaps that you basically can't feel.
你吞下这个装置。
You swallow this.
它储存的能量大约能维持三十分钟的刺激，之后就会自然排出体外。
It has about enough energy to stimulate for about thirty minutes, and then it passes along its way.
确实非常令人印象深刻。
I mean, very impressive.
它真的很小。
It's really small.
我听说它在肠道液体方面遇到了一些问题。
And I hear it sort of ran into some problems with the fluid in the gut.
是这样吗？
Is that right?
你们在一种澳大利亚蜥蜴身上找到了解决方案？
And you found a solution in an Australian lizard?
我们的肠道很恶心。
Our gut is disgusting.
就这么说吧。
Let's just put it that way.
我们的胃基本上是一个不断有少量液体流动的酸液池。
Our stomach is basically this vat of acid that constantly has little levels of fluid.
有时还会有固体。
Sometimes it has solids.
即使在空腹状态下，胃也会持续分泌液体。
Even in the fasting state, the stomach constantly is secreting fluid.
所以胃底部总是积着一小滩酸液。
So you have this little puddle of acid that sits at the bottom of the stomach.
当你吞下药片后，药片最终就会落入那滩酸液中。
And after you swallow a pill, this pill ends up in that little puddle.
如果有人听过'洗完澡后千万别碰电'的老话，就知道水和电本不该混在一起。
And if anybody knows the old advice of never touch electricity after a shower, you know You know that water and electricity shouldn't necessarily go together.
水是极佳的导体。
Water is a fantastic conductor.
这就是我们最初遇到的主要问题——水分会分流大量电刺激，导致电流无法真正作用于组织。
So that was the main problem that we were getting initially is that the water was shunting away a lot of the electrical stimuli and it wasn't actually going into the tissue.
大自然其实已经为我们解决了很多难题。
And so we nature has figured out a lot of our problems.
我们基本上发现了这种非常有趣的生物。
We essentially found this really interesting creature.
这是一种生活在澳大利亚干旱沙漠中的蜥蜴，名为棘蜥。
It's a lizard that lives in the arid deserts of Australia, and it's what's called the thorny lizard.
它的皮肤实际上有许多沟槽。
Its skin actually has a bunch of grooves.
这些沟槽的作用是能够从沙地表面积聚水分，通过爪子一直输送到嘴里。
And what these grooves do is that they allow it to wick water up from the, basically, the surface of the sand where their paws are all the way up to their mouth.
所以它实际上不需要低头饮水。
So it doesn't actually have to go down and drink.
基本上只需将存在的水分吸入嘴中。
It basically just kinda aspirates whatever water is there into the mouth.
这对我们极具启发性，因为它展示了如何在不需主动泵送或消耗能量的情况下引导水分，将水输送到需要的位置，同时远离电极与组织之间的接触面。
And so this this really was inspiring for us because it was an example of how can you channel water in ways that don't require active pumping or active energy, delivering basically the water to where it needs to go and away from the surface between the electrodes and the tissue.
这个灵感太令人着迷了。
That's fascinating inspiration.
埃琳娜，你的任务是在用于输送药物的气泡中加入氧气。
Elena, you were tasked with including oxygen in the bubbles which you're using to deliver drugs.
为什么氧气如此重要？这又为何成为一大挑战？
Why is oxygen important and why was that such a challenge?
其中一个
One of
实际上在许多疾病中，尤其是癌症中面临的挑战是，由于肿瘤生长速度极快，最终导致血液供应不良。
the challenges actually in a lot of diseases but cancer particularly is because tumours grow very quickly you end up with a rubbish blood supply.
肿瘤内部血管不足，导致某些区域完全缺氧。
There aren't enough blood vessels in the tumour and so areas get completely starved oxygen.
当细胞缺氧时，问题在于它们会开始表现异常，实际上进入一种类似僵尸的状态，这时极难杀死它们——药物失效，放疗无效，连我们自身的免疫系统也无法清除这些癌细胞。
The problem when you starve cells of oxygen is they start behaving very strangely, they start going effectively into a zombie state and it's very, very difficult to kill them so drugs don't work, radiotherapy doesn't work, our own immune system can't kill these cancer cells.
因此，如果我们能在给药的同时输送氧气，就能暂时逆转这种状态，有望使癌细胞更容易被消灭。
So if we could deliver oxygen simultaneously with the drug we could temporarily reverse that and hopefully make the cancer cells easier to kill.
这听起来有点反直觉，某种程度上你是在增强癌细胞，让它们活跃起来以便更好地对抗它们。
That's sort of counterintuitive because in a way you're sort of trying to boost the cancer cells, weight them up in order to fight them.
没错，正是如此。
Yes, exactly.
所以困难在于氧气是一种非常非常小的分子。
So the reason it's difficult is that oxygen is a very, very small molecule.
它的溶解性极强。
It's very soluble.
我们体内有一套极其高效的氧气输送系统，这与我们通常注入气泡的气体类型完全相反。
We, have a very, very good way throughout the body of distributing it, which is exactly the opposite from the types of gas we usually put in our bubbles.
我们通常使用极其惰性、极其沉重的气体，确保它们不会扩散。
We usually use something incredibly inert, incredibly heavy that isn't gonna go anywhere.
当与我们合作的药物研发同事询问'你们能把氧气装进气泡里吗'时
When we were asked by my colleagues who were they developed the drugs that we're working with they said oh could you put oxygen in the bubbles?
我们回答'可以啊，
Went yeah,
不
no
成问题'
problem.
我可怜的博士生在实验室里遭受了数月的折磨，因为我们拼命尝试将这种气体保留在气泡中，却始终未能成功。
I gave my poor PhD student many months of misery in the laboratory as we desperately tried to keep this gas inside our bubbles and they didn't.
每次我们制造出气泡，它们都会立即破裂。
Every time we made them they just fell apart immediately.
这真有趣，因为你会觉得往气泡里充氧气比装入复杂药物更容易，但实际上这才是真正棘手的地方。
That's so interesting because you'd think putting oxygen in a bubble is easier than putting some complex drug in a bubble but that's actually where things got really difficult.
是的，幸运的是经过数月努力和团队集思广益，我们终于意识到需要彻底改变涂层材料。
Yep and luckily after many months and a lot of brainstorming in the entire team we figured out well right we need to completely change the coating.
我们必须让涂层具备更强的气密性才能留住气体。
We've got to make it much more gas tight so we keep that.
最终我们采取的方法是：先用传统方式注入重气体制造气泡，然后用氧气进行部分置换。
And actually in the end what we started doing was making the bubbles the old way with our very heavy gas and then partially substituting it with the oxygen.
结果发现我们使用的气体其实是极佳的氧气溶剂，正是它将所有成分稳定结合在一起。
And actually it turned out the gas we've been using is a really, really good solubilizer of oxygen and it was holding it all together.
你说制造气泡时，具体是在进行什么操作？
When you say make the bubbles, what exactly are you doing?
我正担心你会问这个，因为这方法简单得令人尴尬。
I was worried you're gonna ask me that because it it is it's it's embarrassingly simple.
如果你见过卡布奇诺咖啡机，原理非常相似。
If you've seen a cappuccino machine, it's it's very similar.
哦。
Oh.
我们有时会用一点超声波来加强震荡。
We sometimes use a bit of ultrasound to shake it harder.
这是快速制造大量气泡的最佳方法。
That's that's the best way to make lots of bubbles very quickly.
另一种极端情况是，当需要精确制造气泡时，我们可以使用微流控技术，但那样就是逐个制造气泡了。
At the other end of the spectrum, if we need to make bubbles very precisely, we can use microfluidics, but then you are literally making bubbles one by one.
这不是一个
It's not a
高效的生产方式。
great consuming.
是的。
Yeah.
汤姆，你的团队成为全球首个获得永久植入式脑机接口人体试验批准的团队。
Tom, your team became the first in the world to receive approval for human trials of the permanently implanted brain computer interface.
正如你提到的，它是嵌入在单一静脉中的。
And as you mentioned, it's embedded in a single vein.
这个设备是如何记录大脑活动的？
How does that device record brain activity?
它具体在寻找什么信号？
What exactly is it looking for?
系统在植入后启动，我们会进行一个训练阶段，要求你活动身体的不同部位。
The system turns on after the after the implant, and we go through a training paradigm where you have to move different parts of your body.
基本上是对身体进行映射。
You basically map the body.
然后我们会确定，比如说，控制手机所需的最小输入量是多少？
You then say, well, what's the minimum amount amount of input needed to, say, control your phone?
基本上，你可以通过基本的方向控制来操作手机，上下左右、菜单、选择。
And, basically, you can get around your phone with basic levels of directional control, up, down, left, right, menu, select.
这就是我们所做的。
So that's what we do.
你能给我举个例子，说说你合作过的病人以及你们能实现的功能吗？
Could you give me an example of a patient that you've worked with and what you've been able to do with them?
这是一个不同用户实现不同功能的探索过程。
It's been a journey of different users doing different things.
最近罗德尼和匹兹堡的马克一直在使用最新的蓝牙配置文件，这是我们与苹果合作开发的，实际上我认为本周就会发布一个新的HID（人机接口设备）标准，这是蓝牙的一种通信语言。
Rodney has most recently been, as well as Mark in Pittsburgh, been using the latest Bluetooth profile, which we have worked on with Apple, which was is actually, I think, being released this week, a new HID, human interface device, which is a language for Bluetooth.
所以有键盘的HID标准。
So there's an HID for a keyboard.
有鼠标的HID标准。
There's an HID for a mouse.
还有眼球追踪系统的HID标准。
There's an HID for an eye tracking system.
现在将会有一种用于脑控的蓝牙HID协议。
There's now gonna be an HID Bluetooth for brain control.
到目前为止，我们一直在让电脑误以为输入的脑信号来自键盘或鼠标。
Up to this point, we've been tricking the computer into thinking the brain signals coming in were coming from a keyboard or a mouse.
现在我们有能力构建真正源自大脑的不同功能。
Now we have a ability to build different features that are truly brain derived.
谢谢你，汤姆。
Thank you, Tom.
这里是BBC世界服务的《工程师探索人类》节目。
This is The Engineers, Exploring the Human from the BBC World Service.
稍后我们将讨论生物医学的未来及其社会影响。
We'll be talking about the future of biomedicine and its social impact later.
但首先，观众朋友们，轮到你们了。
But first, audience, it's your turn.
有人对我们目前讨论的内容有什么问题吗？
Does anyone have a question about something that we've discussed so far?
好的，我们看到有不少人举手了。
Okay, we've got quite a few hands.
让我们从中间那位穿蓝色上衣、稍微靠左的女士开始。
Let's start with the lady in the middle, slightly to the left with the blue top.
你好，我叫谢丽尔。
Hello, my name is Cheryl.
我想知道，除了癌细胞，你们是否也将气泡技术应用于身体的其他细胞？
I would like to know if with the bubbles you've targeted them at other cells in the body besides cancer ones?
埃莉诺，这个问题应该由你来回答。
Eleanor I think that's one for you.
是的，我们正越来越多地研究用于治疗中风。
Yes, we're increasingly looking at treating stroke.
实际上是在输送溶栓药物，因为这些药物同样具有极强的毒性。
So actually delivering the drugs that are clot busting because those are also horribly horribly toxic.
我们还有一个关于输送抗生素的重大项目，因为抗生素虽然效果显著，但会消灭体内所有细菌——而我们体内大部分细菌其实非常关键且有益，所以如果能实现精准输送。
And we've got a big project on delivering antibiotics because again antibiotics are fantastic but they wipe out all the bacteria in your body and most of the bacteria in our body are really, really important and really useful so if we can target that delivery.
所以希望明年我们能在慢性伤口治疗中实际试验这种抗生素疗法。
So hopefully next year we're actually going to be trialing this in chronic wounds with antibiotics.
有人想向Khalil或Tom提问吗？
Anyone got a question for Khalil or Tom?
请那边的女士提问，然后是左边这位。
The lady there and then the person over here on the left.
谢谢。
Thank you.
非常感谢。
Thank you very much.
我叫Rishi。
My name's Rishi.
我想向Khalil提问。
It's a question for Khalil.
你们研发的药丸，假设在排出时能回收，你们是否预见到未来能通过某种方式溶解它们或类似的处理方法？
You've got the pills, presuming you recover them as they come out, do you foresee a time when you're they're going to be able to be dissolved in some way or something like that?
是的。
Yeah.
这是我最喜欢的问题。
That's my favorite question.
没错。
Yes.
回收是个难题。
Retrieval is a problem.
目前我们使用的大部分电子元件都是无机材料，它们在体内很难有效降解。
So right now, most of the electronics that we have are very much inorganic materials that don't necessarily degrade very well in the body.
基本上，你只能选择回收它们或者冲进马桶。
And essentially, you either have to retrieve them or flush them on the toilet.
这显然会带来问题，特别是考虑到规模化应用时。
And so that obviously poses issues, especially when you think about scaling up.
现在还有另一项并行研究，致力于开发不仅可吞咽还可食用的电子设备。
There's a sort of parallel push towards making electronics that are not just ingestible but edible.
因此，你正试图用食品级材料来制造这些相同的工具。
And so there, you are trying to sort of make these same tools, but from food grade materials.
所以你可以想象，这对你所描述的情况更为有利。
And so you can imagine how that is a lot more conducive to what you're describing.
目前，这两个领域开始相互交流。
Right now, those two fields are starting to talk to each other.
太好了。
Great.
谢谢。
Thank you.
下一个问题。
And next question.
你好。
Hello.
你提到每个人都有相同的大脑部分控制左臂和右臂，但对于像跑步和走路这类无意识行为，是否存在类似自动调谐的机制？
You mentioned that everyone has the same brain part for left arm, right arm, but is there like a auto tune for like running and walking stuff you don't realize you're doing?
这对所有人来说都是相似的吗？
Is that similar across everyone?
是的。
Yeah.
自动调节通常发生在脊髓层面。
The auto tune happens often at the spinal cord level.
实际上，那里有内嵌的——我是说，你刚才提到肠道有自己的迷你大脑。
Actually, there's there's embedded I mean, you were talking about the the gut having its own mini brain.
脊髓有一系列功能，比如，你知道，我认为五年内我们家里就会有家用机器人了。
The spinal cord has a range of like, you can you know, I think in five years, we'll have domestic robots in our houses.
所以我们一直在思考让我们的用户控制一个家用机器人可能意味着什么。
And so we've been thinking what it might mean to have one of our users controlling a domestic domestic robot.
最初你会想，哦，你会让它控制它的手臂。
And initially, you think, oh, well, you'd have it controlling its arms.
但实际上，不是这样的。
And, well, actually, no.
你可能不会这么做。
You probably wouldn't.
你会让它控制更高层次的目标设定，认知层面的目标设定。
You'd have it controlling higher orders of goal setting, cognitive goal settings.
是的。
Yeah.
你将始终保持在目标设定这一层面。
It's going to you'd always stay at the at the goal level.
事实上，大脑的每个区域都有其特定目标。
In fact, every domain of the brain is has got some goal.
大脑始终在试图为你实现某种与生俱来的需求。
There's an inherent thing that you want to do that the brain is trying to, achieve for you.
非常感谢你的提问。
Thank you so much for your questions.
我们必须稍作休息。
We must take a short pause.
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我们稍后将回来了解更多关于生物医学的先锋探索。
We'll be back shortly to find out more about pioneering biomedicine.
您正在收听的是BBC国际服务频道的纪录片。
You're listening to the documentary from the BBC World Service.
我是尼娜·赫鲁晓娃，1962年苏联领导人尼基塔·赫鲁晓夫的曾孙女。
I am Nina Khrushcheva, the great granddaughter of Nikita Khrushchev, the leader of the Soviet Union in 1962.
我是马克斯·肯尼迪，美国总统约翰·F·肯尼迪的侄子。
And I'm Max Kennedy, the nephew of US president John F Kennedy.
我们将探讨历史上那个令人毛骨悚然的时刻。
We explore what was a terrifying moment in history.
古巴导弹危机的故事。
The story of the Cuban Missile Crisis.
世界曾距离核战争有多近。
How close the world came to nuclear war.
以及他们如何将世界从悬崖边缘拉回。
And what they had to do to pull it back from the brink.
炸弹、肯尼迪与赫鲁晓夫。
The bomb, Kennedy and Khrushchev.
在您获取BBC播客的任何平台搜索《炸弹》。
Search for the bomb wherever you get your BBC podcasts.
《能源宵禁音乐时刻》现已在Audible上开放收听。
The energy curfew music hour is available to listen now on Audible.
该节目在纽约米内塔巷剧院现场录制，为您呈现艺术家们以前所未录的方式创作音乐。
Recorded live in front of an audience at the Minetta Lane Theatre in New York City, the energy curfew music hour brings you the artists you love making their music in never before recorded ways.
全原声乐器演奏，全员协作，所有音乐人共同参与创作。
All acoustic, all collaborative, with all hands on the musical deck.
由我和我的搭档Punch Brothers主持，随时聆听世界上最具创意的现场音乐。
Hosted by me and my fellow Punch Brothers, come hear some of the world's most inventive live music whenever you wanna listen.
在您获取播客的任何平台查找《能源宵禁音乐时刻》，或通过Audible享受无广告收听。
Find the energy curfew music hour wherever you get your podcasts or listen ad free on Audible.
各位黑暗日快乐。
Happy dark day, y'all.
想知道如何成为世界首富吗？
Want to know how to become the richest person in the world?
从我们最新一期的播客《善恶亿万富翁》开始了解吧。
Start with the latest episode of our podcast, Good Bad Billionaire.
我们将讲述埃隆·马斯克如何积累5000亿美元财富的故事
We're telling the story of how Elon Musk amassed half $1,000,000,000,000
从他童年时期在南非的坎坷经历说起
From his troubled childhood in South Africa
到收购推特和发射火箭进入太空
To buying Twitter and launching rockets into space.
以及这一路上所有的董事会斗争
With all the boardroom dramas along the way.
在《善恶亿万富翁》中了解他是如何做到的
Find out how he did it on Good Bad Billionaire.
在BBC播客平台随时收听
Listen wherever you get your BBC podcasts.
我是卡罗琳·斯蒂尔，这里是《工程师探索人类》。
I'm Caroline Steele, and this is The Engineers Exploring the Human.
今天与我同台的是三位生物工程领域的世界顶尖工程师。
I'm joined by three world leading engineers in the field of bioengineering.
汤姆·奥克斯利是墨尔本医学院的教授研究员，同时也是Synchron公司的首席执行官。
Tom Oxley is professorial fellow at Melbourne Medical School and CEO of Synchron.
埃莉诺·斯特莱德教授（获授OBE勋章）是牛津大学生物材料学教授。
Eleanor Stride OBE is professor of biomaterials at the University of Oxford.
哈利勒·拉马迪是纽约大学生物工程学助理教授，同时担任阿布扎比拉马迪实验室负责人。
And Khalil Ramadi is assistant professor of bioengineering at New York University and head of the Ramadi lab in Abu Dhabi.
埃莉诺，你的气泡技术将于十月进入人体试验阶段。
Eleanor, your bubble technology is going to human trials in October.
你对此有何期待？
What are you hoping for?
计划是这样的。
That's the plan.
这还需要走常规的文书流程。
This is subject to paperwork as always.
我们已经测试过气泡的安全性，所以相当有信心，但这将是首次实际结合化疗药物使用。
We have tested the safety of the bubbles already, so we're fairly confident, but this will be the first time actually with a chemotherapy drug.
我们会进行三重检查确认。
We're going to be looking just to triple check.
但首要目标是确保没有任何副作用。
But first of all, no one toward effects.
然后我们会实际量化成功递送的药物剂量。
And then we are actually quantifying the amount of drug we've managed to deliver.
针对乳腺癌患者——这些患者本来就要接受手术。
So in breast cancer, so these are patients who are going to have surgery anyway.
手术取出肿瘤后，我们将量化是否成功递送了更多药物，并希望这能导致更多癌细胞死亡。
So they take the tumors out and actually quantify whether we have succeeded in delivering more drug and hopefully whether that's led to more cancer cell death.
所以让我们拭目以待。
So that's fingers crossed.
所有临床试验中，安全永远是第一要务。
All clinical trials, the first number one is safety.
所以这确实是我们首要关注的结果。
So that's really the primary outcome for us.
这非常令人振奋，可能会挽救无数生命。
And it's very exciting and could save many, many lives.
你认为这项技术距离向公众普及还有多远？
How far off this being available to the general public do you think we are?
这是个超级棒的问题。
This is a super question.
所以我认为十五年前，我们离五年还有五年五年。
So I think fifteen years ago, I thought we were five years away.
至少现在差距正在缩小。
At least now the gap is closing.
所以你们进行了第一次试验。
So you do your first trial.
患者数量很少。
It's a small number of patients.
祈祷一切顺利。
Fingers crossed.
一切进展顺利。
Everything goes well.
然后你需要进入第二阶段，接着是第三阶段，患者数量、成本和时间都会增加。
You then have to go to phase two and then you have to go to phase three and the number of patients and the cost and the time increases.
之后，假设一切进展顺利且效果足够好，那时你就可以申请获批用于国民医疗服务体系或其他医疗体系。
After that, provided everything has gone well and everything has worked sufficiently well, that's when you would then apply to get it approved for the NHS or in different health care.
所以我们可能还需要十年时间。
So it's we're probably looking at ten years.
还要再等十年。
Another ten years.
好的。
Okay.
太好了。
Great.
非常感谢。
Thank you very much.
卡里尔，你的发明进展稍慢一些，但其潜在影响可能非常巨大。
Khalil, your invention is slightly less far along, but the implications of it could be huge.
你能简单介绍一下这种药片可用于治疗哪些不同病症吗？
Could you tell me a little bit about the different conditions that this pill could be used to treat?
肠道是一个令人着迷的器官，它与众多其他器官系统有着密切的关联。
So the gut is this fascinating organ that so many other organ systems overlap in.
我们有我们的代谢系统、内分泌系统、饥饿与饱腹感系统，还有免疫系统。
We have our metabolic system, our endocrine system, our hunger and satiety system, our immune system.
因此从疾病影响来看，这意味着如果我们观察胃部这个主要器官——正如你之前听到的——它是向大脑传递饥饿信号的主要器官。
And so what that means from a disease implication, it means that if we look at the at the stomach, for example, that's the primary organ which relays hunger, as you heard earlier, to the brain.
因此不同的病症、不同的饮食失调症，以及潜在的肥胖问题，这些都是我们正在研究的适应症方向。
And so different conditions, different eating disorders, potentially obesity, those are all sort of indications that we are we are looking at.
Ozempic，小心了。
Ozempic, watch out.
如果你再往下走一点到肠道，就会到达小肠。
If you go a little bit further down in the gut, you get to the small intestine.
那里更多是代谢发生的地方，因此潜在的相关病症，比如糖尿病，就显得更为相关。
That's a little more where metabolism happens, and so there indications potentially, like diabetes, become slightly more relevant.
显然，这是极其复杂的疾病。
Obviously, super complex disease.
实际情况不像我描述的这么简单，但这些就是我们体内存在的回路及其重叠之处。
It's not as simple as I'm describing it, but these are the types of circuits that we have in our body and where they overlap.
再往下看结肠，那里是水分调节发生的地方。
And then the colon, if you look a little further down, that's where water regulation happens.
有研究表明，你可以通过某种方式增强免疫力，取决于你是想抑制炎症还是想上调免疫系统，使其处于高度警觉状态。
There some are studies to show that you can sort of boost immunity one way or the other, depending on if you want to tone down inflammation or if you want to sort of upregulate the immune system, put it on hyper alert.
因此根据目标区域不同，我认为适应症也会有所变化。
And so depending on where we go, I think the indications are a little varied.
谢谢。
Thank you.
汤姆，到目前为止，我们主要讨论了支架电极如何帮助治疗闭锁综合征等病症。
Tom, so far, we've focused on how stentrode can help with conditions like locked in syndrome.
它还有哪些其他潜在应用？
What are the other possibilities for it?
你认为支架电极未来的发展方向是什么？
Where do you see stentrode going in the future?
如果第一代可植入脑机接口主要应用于运动控制领域，那么各种导致运动功能障碍的病症都可能从中受益。
So if if the first wave of implantable BCIs is in the domain of motor control, then the spectrum of conditions that cause motor impairment could potentially benefit.
比如神经退行性疾病、运动神经元疾病、中风、多发性硬化症、脑瘫、脊髓损伤、头部外伤、严重关节炎等，许多病症都会阻碍患者与物理世界和科技世界的互动。
So neurodegeneration, motor neuron disease, stroke, multiple sclerosis, cerebral palsy, spinal cord injury, head injury, severe arthritis, there are many conditions that stop you being able to engage in the physical and technological world.
因此我认为第一代运动系统设备将主要解决这些问题。
So I think the first wave of motor system devices will affect that.
但随着技术向其他大脑皮层功能区域发展，它将逐步拓展到语言、视觉和听觉领域。
But I think as the technology moves towards other cortical domains, it will move into the domain of speech, into the domain of vision, hearing.
而我认为真正有趣的是情感内容。
And then what I think is really interesting is emotion emotional content.
你的大脑额叶很大一部分用于对世界的反应——什么让你烦恼、什么让你快乐、什么让你沮丧，所有这些都嵌入在非语言交流中的情绪。
So a lot of a large portion of your frontal lobe is made up of reacting to the world, what annoys you, what makes you happy, what frustrates you, all of those emotions that are embedded in nonverbal communication.
大脑在控制这种无言的交流上消耗了惊人的神经元活动量。
The brain takes up a surprising amount of neuronal activity controlling that unspoken language.
还有许多病症，比如自闭症等，患者在表达情感状态方面存在困难，这项技术可能真的能帮上忙。
And there are many conditions, such as autism and many others where the, challenge of, communicating your emotional state is could potentially this technology could really help.
那么在情感方面，这项技术能否发展到这样的程度：比如我感到沮丧却难以表达时，
So with emotions, could it get to a stage where maybe I'm feeling frustrated, but finding it hard to articulate it?
可能有某种方式能将这种感受从我体内提取出来并传达给他人？
There might be a way of sort of getting that feeling out of my body and communicating it to someone else.
这正是我认为将会实现的场景。
That's exactly what I think will happen.
当然也许你并不想这样，可能你不希望伴侣知道，或者对方难以察觉你的情绪。
And maybe you don't want that, maybe you don't want your partner knowing, or maybe they're having trouble picking it up.
但我认为，如果你正在使用那些即将在未来五到十年内具备实体交互能力的技术，那么这项技术能即时感知你的情绪状态将变得至关重要。
But I think if you're engaging with technology that is now physically able, which think is coming in the next five to ten years, then it could be really important that that technology knows how you just how you feel in that moment.
也许你正产生细微的情绪反应，而周围的技术正在对此作出响应。
So maybe you're having small emotional reactions and the technology is is reacting around you.
我说不清这到底会解决问题还是引发更多争执。
I can't tell if that's gonna solve or cause lots of arguments.
肯定是两者之一。
Definitely one of the two.
埃琳娜，我们讨论了很多关于化疗的话题，但你认为你的气泡技术能应用于其他医疗领域吗？
Elena, we've talked a lot about chemotherapy, but do you see your bubbles helping with other areas of medicine?
当然可以。
Absolutely.
正如我之前提到的，抗生素耐药性是个非常非常可怕的问题，我们必须尽快采取行动。
So I think I mentioned earlier, antimicrobial resistance is a really, really terrifying problem that we need to do something about quickly.
抗生素滥用正是这类问题之一。
Overuse of antibiotics is one of those problems.
因此，如果我们能更精准地靶向使用抗生素，或采用其他药物，就有望减缓目前观察到的耐药性加速趋势——因为当前人类和动物都过度使用抗生素。
So if we can target the antibiotics much more effectively, or we can use other drugs, hopefully we can reduce the acceleration of resistance that we're seeing because at the moment we give antibiotics far, far too much to humans and to animals.
如果能找到靶向治疗的方法，那就太好了。
If we can find a way of targeting it, that would be great.
细菌感染相关的另一项挑战是细菌会形成这些可怕的结构——生物膜，比如你刮牙时粘在指甲上的那层恶心黏液。
The other sort of allied challenge with bacterial infections is bacteria grow these horrible things called biofilms, so if you scrape your teeth it's the horrible goo that comes off on your fingernail.
细菌就藏在这些生物膜里，药物很难渗透进去真正杀死它们。
Bacteria live in these biofilms and it's really hard to get the drugs into them to actually kill them off.
而利用气泡产生的机械效应，我们实际上可以破坏生物膜结构，让药物进入并杀死细菌。
So again, using the bubbles you get this mechanical effect, You can actually break up the biofilm to get the drug into the bacteria and kill them as well.
这是我们非常期待的研究方向。
So that's something we're very excited about.
我们计划明年进行测试，希望能顺利推进。
I say we're hopefully testing this next year, so fingers crossed.
祝你们成功。
Fingers crossed.
汤姆，你一定意识到了解读人脑电波涉及的伦理问题。
Tom, you must be aware of the ethical issues with interpreting people's brain waves.
我的意思是，很大一部分人已经认为我们大脑里植入了微芯片。
I mean, a large proportion of the population already think that we have microchips in our brains.
你如何应对这些伦理担忧？
How do you deal with those ethical concerns?
我经常思考这个问题。
I think about this a lot.
我认为确实存在一些担忧。
I think there are concerns.
首先我要说的是，我思考问题时会遵循三个原则：隐私权、自主权和反歧视。
The first thing I'll say so and I think about things in three three principles, privacy, autonomy, and discrimination.
关于隐私权我要说的第一点是，如果谁看过《黑镜》，我认为英国人应该为《黑镜》负责。
The first thing I'll say on privacy, if anyone's watched Black Mirror, I think it's that the Brits are to blame for Black Mirror.
关于脑机接口在社会中发展的反乌托邦叙事，确实包含了一些真实的成分。
The dystopic narrative on where BCI goes in society has some elements of truth to it.
我认为这是一个长期问题，但关于BCI隐私问题的讽刺之处在于，当前急需帮助的人恰恰有着完全相反的需求。
I think it's on a long horizon, but the irony around the privacy concern with BCI is that the people in need right now have the exact opposite requirement.
如果你瘫痪了，你就会失去隐私，因为你将依赖他人照料，而这正是他们讽刺性寻求的东西。
If you if you become paralyzed, you lose your privacy because you now become dependent on someone else, and that's ironically what they're looking for.
因此你必须放弃大脑访问权限才能实现这一点。
So you have to give up your, brain access to enable this.
但在未来状态下，问题就变成了：特别是当你进入潜意识交互领域时，如果技术开始干预大脑在潜意识层面的活动。
But in a future state, the question becomes, well, how do you especially if you move into the domain of subconscious engagement, if it starts to engage with things that your brain is doing at a subconscious level.
所以我认为如果发生这种情况，就存在一个关于如何处理隐私和同意的现实问题，你开始放弃可能是自己非常复杂的部分。
So I think if that happens, then there's a real question around how you handle privacy and consent, and you're starting to give up what could be very intricate parts of yourself.
因此我认为这是一个主要考量因素，系统必须具有代理权和自主权。
So I think that's a major consideration, and there has to be agency and sovereignty to the systems.
当你说BCI系统时，为了澄清，你指的是部分植入人脑的设备对吗？
And when you say BCI system, just to clarify, you're referring to part of you're partly referring to the device that you're implanting into people's brains.
我指的是这样一种场景：你有一个植入体，它能理解你的某些认知过程，并与周围的技术层进行交互。
I'm talking about a situation where you have a implant and it's able to understand some of your cognitive processes and it's engaging with layers of technology around you.
好的。
Okay.
这说得通。
That makes sense.
回到《黑镜》那集，我看到过这样的例子：某人脑中出了个小问题，却带来毁灭性后果。他们被植入芯片——我想和你的研究差别不大——这芯片能彻底改造他们的大脑，让中风患者恢复正常生活。
And just back to that Black Mirror episode, I've seen, there are examples where something goes something small goes wrong in someone's brain, it has hugely devastating consequences, and they have a chip put into their brain, I guess not massively dissimilar to what you're doing Tom, and it is able to completely transform their brains and people are able to live as normal after having had a stroke.
但问题在于，人们会依赖这项他们无法完全掌控的技术。
But the issue is people become reliant on a technology that they don't have total control over.
我想这应该在你的考虑范围内。
And I guess this is probably something that you're considering.
你会让人们依赖这项技术。
You're going to have people dependent on this technology.
有什么保障措施？
What safeguarding is in place?
如何确保他们在五到十年后仍能使用它？
How do you ensure that they're still able to use it in five, ten years' time?
这个问题在其他医疗设备应用中已经存在了几十年。
So this issue has come up over several decades in other medical device applications.
最早可能是心脏起搏器，七八十年代刚出现时需要多次迭代和大量支持。
The first one was probably the cardiac pacemaker, which in the seventies and eighties when it first appeared needed multiple iterations and needed lots of support.
更近期的例子是一家被广泛报道的公司，他们研发了皮质视觉植入装置。
Probably more recently, there was a widely reported company that was doing a cortical vision implant.
由于种种原因，这家公司无法继续运营，导致患者体内的植入装置失去技术支持。
And the company, for whatever reason, wasn't able to continue and was people were left with implants that were no longer supported.
鉴于这些新兴企业并非政府资助，这是个颇具挑战性的问题。
So it's a challenging issue given that the companies emerging are not government funded.
这些公司必须自力更生，建立成功的商业模式。
They're they're companies that are having to stand on their own two feet and create successful businesses.
存在公司不复经营的风险。
There is the risk that the companies no longer exist.
所以这个问题没有简单的解决方案。
So there's no easy solution.
在征得患者同意时，我们会讨论这个问题。
When we consent people, we talk about it.
所以我们会在知情同意书中提及这一点。
So we talk about it in the consent.
可能需要强调的重要一点是，你们承诺提供一定水平的功能。
Probably an important thing to mention is that you offer a certain level of functioning.
那么如果出现升级版本，后续会怎样处理？
And then if there are upgrades, well, what happens?
之后如何持续进行系统升级？
Then how do you continue to upgrade?
对已植入体内的系统进行升级确实具有挑战性。
It's it's challenging to upgrade systems that have been implanted in the body.
关键在于，在当前阶段你们已向用户承诺提供的性能水平优于他们之前的状态。
What's what matters is that at the moment in time, you've talked about the user that you're offering a level of performance that is better than what they had before.
是的，技术会持续进步，但这是生活中不可避免的发展规律。
Now, yes, things are gonna keep getting better in front of you, but that's that's an h that's an aspect of life that's unavoidable.
但我们有过这样的对话。
But we have that conversation.
而最令人谦卑又鼓舞的是，与我们合作的大多数人都患有危及生命的疾病，主要是运动神经元疾病。
And what's what's been extremely, humbling and inspiring is that most of the people we've worked with have a life threatening disease, mostly motor neuron disease.
他们这样做的动力是相信，自己将为帮助后来者的系统做出贡献。
And their motivation to do this is the belief that they're going to have made a contribution to a system that's going to help people after them.
你提到了歧视问题。
And you mentioned discrimination.
能否详细谈谈这个担忧？
Could you tell me a little bit more about that concern?
关于歧视，我认为在未来，如果技术...我上周听到Scale AI的Alex Wang说，他不想在孩子能植入脑机接口前生育，否则孩子会处于劣势。
So discrimination, I think, a future state, if the technology I heard Alex Wang, the Scale AI last week made a comment that he didn't wanna have children until they could get an implantable BCI because otherwise they'll be disadvantaged.
Steve Bannon在提及Neuralink时也谈到，未来可能出现一个选择通过技术增强的人类新阶层。
And Steve Bannon has been talking about this a little bit when he's referenced Neuralink that in the future, the question is, will there be a subclass of humans not a subclass, a a different class of humans that have elected to take a technology for the purpose of augmentation?
这是否意味着他们能以某种优势方式更高效地参与社会？这对社会又意味着什么？
And does that mean they can then participate in society at a level superior, in some way advantageous relative to not, and what will that mean for society?
太好了。
Great.
谢谢。
Thank you.
Khalil，我最后再问一个问题。
Khalil, one last question from me.
如果你的药片主要被用作食欲抑制剂，用来帮助人们减肥，你会有什么感受？
How would you feel if your pill went on to be used as an appetite suppressant, as something to help people lose weight as its sort of primary function?
这正是我们渴望能够发现的机制，因为目前我们只能实现相反的效果。
That is a mechanism that we would love to be able to identify, because right now we can do the opposite.
而且我认为
And I think
那会让我们非常饥饿。
It would make us really hungry.
你会
You get
它？
it?
它
It
将会
would be
如果我们能抑制食欲就太好了。
great if we could suppress appetite.
生物学机制并非如此简单。
The biology is not so simple.
我们有一些假设，或许能激活某些抑制食欲的神经回路。
And we have some hypotheses about maybe how we might activate certain appetite suppressing circuitry.
目前尚未完全实现，尽管初步数据看起来很有希望，我们拭目以待。
We're not quite there yet, although some preliminary data looks promising, so we'll see.
但我确实认为这可能是我们能让这项研究发挥作用的最大潜在方向。
But I do think that that's probably the biggest indication that we might be able to have this work for.
谢谢。
Thank you.
这里是BBC国际频道的工程师们对人类科技的探索。
This is the engineers exploring the human from the BBC World Service.
我们已经讨论了气泡药物递送、用于交流的脑部植入物，以及从肠道治疗疾病的电子药丸。
We've discussed bubble drug delivery, brain implants for communication, and electrical pills which tackle disease from the gut.
现在又轮到我们的观众了。
It's the turn of our audience again.
有谁对我们目前讨论的内容有问题吗？
Who has a question on anything we've discussed so far?
前排这里有个问题。
We've got a question down here at the front.
你好。
Hi.
我叫蒂姆。
My name's Tim.
这其实是一个普遍性的问题。
It's a general question, really.
过去十二个月里，我们听到很多关于人工智能呈指数级增长的讨论，我想依次向三位专家提出这个问题。
We've heard a lot in the last twelve months about the exponential growth in artificial intelligence, and I just wanted to pose the question to the three experts in turn.
你们认为人工智能会在多大程度上对你们各自的研究领域产生积极影响，或者可能带来负面影响？
To what extent do you think AI will have a positive impact on your relative areas of research or possibly even a negative one?
那么我们希望每位嘉宾都能给出简短精炼的回答，可以吗？从埃莉诺开始。
So we'll have really quick, short, snappy answers from everyone, if that's okay, starting with Eleanor.
我认为一个非常积极的领域是快速诊断。
So I think a very positive area is in rapid diagnosis.
通过快速高效处理海量医学影像，放射技师不会感到疲劳。
So I think in being able to process lots and lots of medical images very quickly, very efficiently, the radiographers don't get tired.
我们能更早发现疾病。
We can detect the diseases earlier.
治疗也能更加有效。
We can treat them much more effectively.
我认为这是所有AI存在的问题——如果没有优质数据且使用了错误的统计处理方法，就会得到垃圾答案。
I think that's where the problem with all AI, if you don't have good data and you are using the wrong statistical processing, you will get rubbish answers.
而这正是危险所在。
And that's, think, where the danger lies.
所以我们必须对应用场景格外谨慎。
So we just gotta be super careful where we apply it.
汤姆，该你了。
Tom, next.
从好的方面看，AI与脑机接口（BCI）的整合在某种程度上是必要的，因为只有AI才能最好地解析大脑中海量数据，这将实现脑活动与技术间的交互。
In the good instance, integration with AI and BCI is in a sense needed because the ability to make sense of the huge amount of data in the brain will be best served by AI, and it will enable interaction between brain activity and technology.
但另一方面，从我们已观察到的情况来看，那些从企业商业角度取悦人类的算法，已经开始操控人类非常脆弱的系统——主要是多巴胺系统，因为它们具有成瘾性。
But on the flip side, from what we've already seen, the algorithms that start to please humans from a corporate commercial perspective have already playing on human systems that are very vulnerable, and they're primarily dopaminergic because they're addictive.
所以我担心的是这种情况长期发展下去的后果。
So what I worry about is how that plays out over time.
最后，请卡里尔发言。
And finally, Khalil.
我将非常实际地回答你的问题，作为一名研究者，这些大语言模型对于探索想法、起草内容非常有用。我认为它们正在极大地改变研究者生成想法和集体头脑风暴的方式。
I'm gonna answer your question very practically, which is that as a researcher, these LLMs are fantastic for exploring ideas, drafting things, And I think it's very much changing the way that researchers sort of start to generate ideas and collectively brainstorm.
所以我认为这确实是一个积极的方面。
So I think that's sort of a really positive one.
消极的一面可能是我们最终都会产生相同的想法。
Negative is that maybe we'll all end up having the same ideas.
我不知道。
I don't know.
我想埃琳娜有些想补充的。
I think Elena has something she wants to add.
我认为我们还需要关键意识到的一点是这些东西消耗了多少能源。
I think another thing we also need to be crucially aware of is just how much energy these things take.
所以我再次强调要谨慎选择应用场景，因为它们消耗的电力和水资源远超地球上任何已有的事物。
So again, I'm being very careful what we apply them to because they consume electricity and water like nothing we've had on the planet.
还有其他问题吗？
Any more questions?
我们从过道这位先生开始提问，之后会请后排的那位女士发言。
We'll start with the man over here in the aisle and then afterwards we'll go to the lady at the back.
谢谢。
Thank you.
作为一名左额叶癫痫患者，你们一直将药物输送与大脑和肠道联系起来，那么植入物、气泡和肠道之间是否存在关联？
As someone who lives with left front lobe epilepsy, the delivery of drugs you've always put with the brain and the gut, is there a correlation between implants, bubble and the gut?
这三者能否协同作用？
Could the three work together?
现在是合作的时机吗？
Is this a moment for a collaboration?
你觉得呢？
What do you think?
谁想来接手这个问题？
Who wants to take this one?
Khalil？
Khalil?
我们能合作吗？
Could we work together?
当然可以。
Absolutely.
我是说，我们几小时前才刚认识，这里要完全坦诚相告。
I think the I mean, we met each other a few hours ago, just full full disclosure here.
只能说时间飞逝，当你把极客们聚在一起时，总会产生有趣的对话。
And and let's just say time flew by, just in terms of when you put geeks together, just end up having interesting conversations.
我不想代表所有工程师发言，但我要说真正让我兴奋的是那些尚未解决的问题。
I don't wanna speak for sort of all engineers, but I will say that one thing that really excites me is where there is a problem that is unsolved.
我觉得这大概就是工程师的本性吧。
And I think that's sort of just kind of the engineering hat.
所以我们开展的大部分项目都始于一个当前未被充分解决或存在影响机会的问题。
So most of the projects that we embark on start off with what is a problem that is currently underserved or where there is an opportunity to have an impact.
然后我们会评估自己是否有足够新颖的想法来真正产生影响。
And then do we think that we have a novel enough idea to actually think that we can make an impact?
谢谢。
Thank you.
接下来我们要请中间这位女士发言。
And we're gonna go to the lady in the center here.
你好。
Hello.
这个问题是提给埃莉诺的。
This is question for Eleanor.
那些未被靶向器官击破的气泡及其内部药物会怎样处理？
What happens to the bubbles and the drugs inside them that aren't burst when they're targeted at the target organ?
谢谢。
Thank you.
不，这是个非常好的问题。
No, it's a very good question.
最终气体会逐渐泄漏，剩下的基本上就是一个皱缩的微型气囊，由肝脏进行代谢处理。
So the gas eventually just leaks out and you're left with a tiny little crumpled balloon essentially, which gets processed by the liver.
这意味着并非所有药物都能到达目标器官。
Now that does mean not all of the drug is getting to the target.
这方面我们需要考虑两个因素。
There are two things we have to take into account there.
首先，我们使用的药量通常比全身给药少100倍，因此副作用风险仍大幅降低。
First of all, we are typically using a 100 times less drug than you would normally give systemically so that the risk of side effects are still quite substantially reduced.
另一方面，我们尝试通过工程化包膜使药物保持钝化状态。
The other thing though is we try and engineer the coating so that the drug stays passivated.
药物不会产生任何作用并会被排出体外。
It doesn't do anything and it's passed out.
希望这就是我们的解决方案。
So hopefully that's how we're dealing with that.
很好，谢谢。
Great, thank you.
下一个问题。
Next question.
大家好，各位专家组成员。
Hi there panel.
主要是想请教Tom。
Primarily for Tom.
关于使用植入物治疗这些退行性疾病的讨论已经很多了。
There's been a lot of discussion about the use of the implants for treating these degenerative diseases.
有没有可能利用它来追踪病情发作和恶化情况？
Is there any way it could be potential for tracking onset and worsening of the conditions?
将植入物用于诊断目的的想法非常吸引人。
The use of the implants for diagnostic purposes is fascinating.
尤其在癫痫领域具有巨大潜力。
Very lots of potential, especially in epilepsy.
但挑战在于它们非常昂贵，而且存在风险。
The the challenge is that they're very expensive, and they're they've got risk.
所以在诊断领域，特别是使用永久性植入物时，需要面对
So the the field of diagnostics, especially with a permanent implant, you've got
非常
a very
植入该设备需要极高的合理性论证。
high burden for justification for putting it in.
我认为目前最具吸引力的新兴应用领域之一是癫痫发作周期检测。
I think probably the most one of the most compelling areas that is emerging is in the domain of epileptic seizure cycle detection.
因为除此之外，神经科医生除了依赖患者自述外，几乎无法了解癫痫发作时间——而发作本身会导致记忆丧失。
Because otherwise, neurologists have very little way of understanding when seizures are happening apart from the patient recounting, but the seizure makes you lose memory.
目前尚无机制能判断大脑是否进入异常活动模式，而这些信息本可以指导治疗。
So there is no mechanism right now of knowing when your brain is going into abnormal patterns or not, and that can inform therapy.
谢谢。
Thank you.
我看到观众中有几张年轻的面孔。
I see a few young faces in the audience.
我们年轻的成员中有谁想提问吗？
Does any one of our younger members want to ask a question?
后排穿连帽衫的那位看起来很积极。
There's someone keen over there in the back wearing a hoodie.
这是个比较轻松的问题，但你们能用神经植入技术来实现更逼真的VR游戏吗？
This is quite a lighthearted question, but could you use neural implants to do more realistic VR gaming?
哦，好问题。
Oh, good question.
我认为这将成为最早采用这项技术的群体之一。
I think that'll be one of the first groups that are early adopters for this technology.
我没开玩笑。
I'm not joking.
而且我认为其吸引力在于——顺便说，这也是美国国防部感兴趣的原因——因为你能以比身体更灵敏的方式操作系统。
And and I think the reason it's gonna be attractive is and it's, by the way, US defense that's why the US defense is interested because you can engage with systems in a more responsive way than what your body can.
这样能缩短技术控制的反应时间。
So you get down your reaction times for technology control.
所以游戏玩家可能会是早期用户。
So gamers, maybe.
美国国防部对此有何兴趣？
What interest has it been from US defense?
请详细说说这方面的情况。
Tell me a little bit more about that.
实际上，BCI领域最初就是由美国国防部DARPA投入数亿美元启动的。
Well, actually, field of BCI started with several 100 millions of dollars from US defense from DARPA.
这是我们获得的第一笔资金来源。
That was where our first funding came from.
随后在十到十五年间，这笔资金逐渐撤出。
Then over the course of ten to fifteen years, that that funding went away.
特朗普上台后，更关注士兵武器装备方面。
Trump came in, and there was more of a focus on soldiers' weapons.
所以现在美国国防部的投资减少了，但最初的国防需求是帮助从沙漠战场归来的伤残军人——那些失去手臂或腿部的士兵恢复对假肢的控制，同时研究头部创伤导致的创伤后应激障碍。
So there's less investment now from US defense, but there's been the initial the initial defense interest was helping people who are coming back from desert warfare who'd lost arms, legs and arms, to restore control of prosthetic limbs, and then also to understand post traumatic stress from head injuries.
这就是整个项目的起源。
So that that was that's the origin.
非常感谢。
Thank you very much.
非常好的问题。
Fantastic question.
谢谢。
Thank you.
那边的先生。
Gentleman there.
哦，你好。
Oh, hi.
我是Clarity的Michael。
Michael at Clarity.
这实际上是一个关于工程的问题。
It's a question about engineering, really.
吞下电池从来都不是个好主意。
Swallowing in a battery is never a good idea.
你们是否考虑过使用替代能源为胶囊供电？
Have you looked at alternative sources of energy to power your capsule?
是的。
Yeah.
好问题。
Great question.
郑重声明，吞食电池绝不是个好主意。
Swallowing a battery for the record is not a good idea.
我不建议这么做。
I don't recommend it.
千万别尝试。
Do not try that.
我完全同意这一点。
I absolutely agree with that.
我们会将其封装起来。
We encapsulate it.
所以这样就没问题。
That's why it's okay.
但我认为除此之外你只有两种选择：要么本地发电，要么无线传输电力。
But I think the the two options that you have otherwise are you either generate the power locally or you deliver it wirelessly.
无线充电——如果有人用过它给手机充电就会知道，近距离效果很好，但只要超过几厘米距离就失效了。
Wireless powering, if anyone has obviously used it to charge your phones, you know that it's really good up close, the but minute you go more than a few centimeters away, it doesn't work.
随着技术进步，这可能会成为一个可行方案。
As that gets better, that could be an option.
显然，人体本身也拥有大量的能量来源。
And then, obviously, the body has tons of sources of energy too.
你可以利用化学原理，通过局部离子和酸来发挥作用。
You have chemistry, so you can play around with local ions and acids.
你可以收集机械能。
You can harvest mechanical energy.
这里的关键在于，如果你从收缩中提取能量，那么收缩实际上就无法产生效果。
The catch there is that if you take the energy out of a contraction, then the contraction doesn't actually do its effect.
所以这里也有一个最佳平衡点。
So there's a sweet spot there as well.
不过确实，我认为你提出了一个极好的观点。
But yes, I mean, I think you bring up a fantastic point.
有几种不同的选择。
There's a couple of different options.
我认为随着电子和电气工程领域的同行们在供电技术上的进步，我们可用的选项也会随之增加。
I think as our colleagues in electronics and electrical engineering also get better at powering things, so too will some of the options we have available to us.
很好。
Great.
谢谢。
Thank you.
下一个问题。
Next question.
很好。
Great.
我叫马修。
My name is Matthew.
你们在BCI领域的工作是否正朝着《终结者》那样的世界迈出一小步？
And does your work with BCIs be the a very small step towards a world of Terminator?
《终结者》里是机器人被天网控制四处行走，这与人类系统中植入电子设备的情况有些不同。
Terminator was robots walking around controlled by Skynet, which is a little bit different to a human system that has a, you know, electronics implant.
所以不会。
So no.
我换个方式问这个问题。
Just rephrase the question.
好的。
Okay.
这是否会建立一个由计算机控制的人类与普通生物人类对立的世界？
Will it set up a world where you have computer controlled humans versus your regular biological human?
是的，就像你看到的，如果一个人没有这种植入设备，可能会处于劣势。
Yes, like you see could someone maybe being at a disadvantage if you're not one of the people with this implant.
是的。
Yeah.
明确一下，这个技术的理念是将大脑的控制权向外传递，而不是让外部控制侵入大脑。
So just to make the point, the idea is to send the control of the brain out, not to have the control coming in.
虽然如此，但我认为我们已经生活在一个计算机开始控制人类的世界里了。
So there's that, but I think we're already in a world where computers are beginning to control us.
以TikTok为例，它的算法极易让人上瘾，对文化产生巨大影响，但这种影响并不总是积极的。
TikTok is an example of an algorithm that is very addictive, that has a huge influence on, culture in a not always positive way.
我相信脑机接口能让我们比现在更深入地了解自己。
I believe that BCIs will enable understandings of ourselves better than what we have right now.
所以我希望这项技术实际上能帮助我们变得更有人性。
So my hope is that actually this technology helps us become more human.
很棒。
Great.
谢谢。
Thank you.
哈立德，类似地，你认为你研发的药丸有可能被用于恶意目的吗？
Khalil, similar to that, could you see your pill ever being used for nefarious purposes?
我认为就像我们拥有的所有药物或技术一样，总是存在某种安全层面的问题。
I think as with all medicines or technologies that we have, there's always sort of the security component.
可能简单到假冒药品，标签标注的是某种成分，实际上却含有其他物质。
It can be as simple as counterfeit medications that we are are labeled in one way, but in fact carry something else.
而一旦引入电子元件——我们姑且说这些元件在生产后是可被修改的——我认为这就为主动操控打开了大门，而不仅仅是源头生产环节的操控。
And the minute you introduce electronics, are, let's just say, adaptable after they are manufactured, I think that also opens the door towards active manipulation as opposed to just source manufacturing manipulation.
所以，是的，我认为安全性是其中非常重要的组成部分。
So, yes, I mean, I think security is a huge component of it.
老实说，部分原因在于这些东西开发成本如此之高，是因为你必须把所有安全和保障因素都考虑进去。
And honestly, part, some of these things are so expensive to develop is that you have to take all of this safety and security into account.
谢谢。
Thank you.
是的。
And yes.
嗨。
Hi.
这是给汤姆的问题。
This is a question for Tom.
我想知道，就你目前正在开发的脑机接口技术而言，你最期待体验或看到哪些未来的发展？这些技术又将如何进一步演进？
I was wondering in terms of what you're most excited to experience or see coming forward from the technologies you're developing now in terms of brain interfaces and where where that will develop from there?
从长远来看，让我感到兴奋的是这项技术——假设它是安全有效的——它提供了一种从大脑各个认知领域传输信息的机制。
What I'm excited about on a long term perspective is this technology, assuming it's safe and it's effective, you've got a mechanism to transmit information from the various cognitive domains of your brain.
我认为在未来状态下——这可能需要几十年的时间——如果我们有设备能够从大脑的多个区域获取数据流，我们将会意识到，就像你知道的那样，你的头脑中可以同时进行多个想法。
And I think in a future state, this is probably a couple of decades away, but if we have the device streaming from multiple domains of your brain, I think we're going to realize, like, the you know that you can have multiple ideas going in your head.
你可以同时处理多项任务。
You can multitask.
你的大脑中可以并行处理多个信息流。
You can have parallel streams of things happening in your brain.
实际上你可能只在有意识地专注于其中一个。
You might actually be only actively, consciously working on one of them.
但如果这项技术能够将大脑多个区域的信息流同时传输到不同的技术层，那么你就有可能同时处理多个意识流。
But if this technology enables streams from multiple domains of brain into various technology layers, then you could potentially be working in multiple streams of consciousness in at once.
谢谢。
Thank you.
是的。
And yes.
非常感谢。
Thank you very much.
你好。
Hello.
我是莎拉。
My name's Sarah.
我是一名影像诊断专业的学生。
I'm a diagnostic radiography student.
我的问题是：如果作为乳腺X光检查的一部分，你们是否会考虑将这项技术引入我们的科室，并最终使其成为我们日常检查的常规项目？？
My question would be as part of mammography in the section that we do there, would rolling out your ultrasound be something that you would look to put in within our department and something eventually we would be able to do as a routine course that we do?
我发誓我没有在观众中安插她。
I promise I didn't plant her in the audience.
绝对是的，我们一直非常热衷于尝试确保使用现有的临床超声系统，这样我们就不必使用非常高功率的设备或开发任何新东西。
Absolutely and something we've been really keen to do is try to ensure we're using existing clinical ultrasound systems so that we don't have to use very high powered devices or develop anything new.
所以绝对可行，我们的设想是这将非常用户友好，当你发现病灶时，可以用同一套系统非常快速地进行治疗。
So absolutely, and the idea is this will be user friendly and something that you see the disease, you can treat very, very quickly with the same system.
谢谢。
Thank you.
非常令人兴奋。
Very exciting.
非常感谢大家的提问。
Thank you so much for your questions everyone.
很遗憾我们时间有限无法回答更多问题。
I wish we could take more but we are out of time.
以上就是来自伦敦皇家地理学会的工程师们对人体探索的分享。
That's it for the engineers exploring the human at the Royal Geographical Society in London.
我是卡罗琳·斯蒂尔。
I'm Caroline Steele.
我代表BBC国际广播电台、我们的合作伙伴——1851年皇家委员会，以及我的制作人查理·泰勒，请大家一起为我们的先锋工程师埃莉诺·斯特赖德、哈利勒·拉马迪和汤姆·奥克斯利献上热烈的掌声。
On behalf of the BBC World Service, our partners, the Royal Commission eighteen fifty one, and my producer, Charlie Taylor, Please join me in giving a warm round of applause for our pioneering engineers, Eleanor Stride, Khalil Ramadi, and Tom Oxley.
非常感谢。
Thank you very much.
您正在收听的是BBC国际广播电台纪录片《工程师探索人类》。
You've been listening to The Engineers Exploring the Human for the documentary from the BBC World Service.
我是尼娜·赫鲁晓娃，1962年苏联领导人尼基塔·赫鲁晓夫的曾孙女。
I am Nina Krusheva, the great granddaughter of Nikita Khrushchev, the leader of the Soviet Union in 1962.
我是马克斯·肯尼迪，美国总统约翰·F·肯尼迪的侄子。
And I'm Max Kennedy, the nephew of US President John F Kennedy.
我们将探索历史上那个令人恐惧的时刻。
We explore what was a terrifying moment in history.
古巴导弹危机的故事。
The story of the Cuban Missile Crisis.
世界曾离核战争有多近。
How close the world came to nuclear war.
以及他们不得不采取什么行动来悬崖勒马。
And what they had to do to pull it back from the brink.
炸弹、肯尼迪与赫鲁晓夫。
The bomb, Kennedy and Khrushchev.
无论你在哪里收听BBC播客，都可以搜索《炸弹》。
Search for the bomb wherever you get your BBC podcasts.
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