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好吧，我们现在被封锁了。
Well, here we are on lockdown.
你怎么样？
How are you?
这里是佩雷斯·希尔顿播客的布克，由克里斯·布克主持。
It's Booker of the Perez Hilton podcast with Chris Booker.
我们明白。
We get it.
我们知道你很无聊。
We know you're bored.
我们还在继续做节目。
We're still doing shows.
我们会持续为你更新所有娱乐资讯。
We're keeping you up to date with everything entertainment.
给你一点喘息的空间，远离外面世界的纷扰。
A little bit of relief from everything that's going on in the world.
你可以在Spotify上收听这档节目。
You could get the show on Spotify.
也可以在Apple Podcasts或者PodcastOne应用里找到它。
You could get it on your Apple Podcasts or the PodcastOne app.
不管你怎么听，记得下载并订阅《Perez Hilton播客》——由Chris Booker主持，所有娱乐资讯都不错过。
Whatever you do, download and subscribe and get the PHP, the Perez Hilton podcast with Chris Booker, and everything that's entertainment will be covered.
大家好。
Hey, everybody.
欢迎来到《神秘博士》播客。
Welcome to Doctor Who podcast.
老样子，废话连篇。
Blah blah blah as usual.
让海盗船的风帆一直鼓满风。
Keep the wind in the sail of pirate ships.
我在Twitter、Twitch还有其他平台等你们。
I'll see you over at Twitter and Twitch and everywhere.
你也可以在医生德鲁和Instagram上的医生德鲁·平斯基那里找到。
It's at doctor Drew and also doctor Drew Pinsky on Instagram.
另外，别忘了访问医生德鲁的官网，也就是 doctordrew.tv，观看我们的直播节目。
And, check out the streaming shows, at, doctor Drew dot TV.
今天非常荣幸能再次邀请到罗伯特·格林，他最新出版的这本书。
It is my privilege to welcome back to the show today Robert Greene, the new book.
其实也不算新了。
Not so new.
已经上市有一段时间了。
It's been out for a little while now.
《人性的法则》，在亚马逊上能买到，讲的是人的驱动力和动机，这一点我觉得在我们当今的文化里被严重忽视了。
The Laws of Human Nature, available Amazon, about, drives and motivations, which is, something that personally I feel is woefully underemphasized in our culture today.
一如既往，罗伯特，能邀请你来真是太好了。
And, as always, Robert, it's a pleasure to
见到你真高兴。
have you.
非常感谢您邀请我做客，德鲁医生。
Thank you very much for having me, doctor Drew.
这本书有趣的是，引起了我那两个千禧一代孩子的注意，他们都是29岁。
So this book, interestingly, caught my children who are millennials, 29 year old Oh.
他们开始着迷于这本书，甚至按照书里的内容生活，就是《人性的法则》？
And started sort of, like obsessing about it and living by it and Plus of Human Nature?
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我当时就想，真没想到，他们之前读过你几本书，一直都很喜欢，但这一本不知怎么特别打动了他们。
And I thought, wow, that's that's because I they've read a couple of your other books and they've always loved them and but this one somehow caught their imagination, I guess.
写得真是结构清晰。
Really structured in such a way.
没错。
Yeah.
你没听到吗？
You're not hearing this?
这本书挺厚的。
Well, it's a it's a long book.
内容比较复杂，说实话，听到有人这么喜欢它，我挺惊讶的，毕竟读起来不轻松。
It's kind of complex and, you know, I'm always surprised to hear people are enjoying it in that way because it's kind of a hard read.
这书不一定适合一口气从头读到尾。
Well, it's not necessarily the kind of book you sit down or read cover to cover.
它需要慢慢琢磨，还得结合背景来理解，是的。
It it's something that it needs contemplation and needs sort of context and Yeah.
你把它分成了几个大块。
And you've you've broken it down into big chunks.
能聊聊这个吗？
Wanna talk about that a little bit?
对。
Yeah.
简单来说，我研究的是人类本性的18个方面。
Well, basically, there are 18 aspects of human nature that I'm looking at.
比如我们容易非理性，容易自我中心、自恋。
You know, some of them are like our tendency towards it being irrational, our tendency to be self absorbed and narcissistic.
什么？
What?
黑暗面。
The dark.
恐怕每个人都有这一面。
All of us have that I'm afraid.
黑暗面也叫阴影，包括我们的短视、嫉妒心、稍有成就就膨胀、攻击性，还有我们面对死亡的方式。
The dark side was known as the shadow, our shortsightedness, our tendency to have feelings of envy, our grandiosity if we have any success, aggression, how we deal with our ideas of mortality.
每一条法则，某种程度上，都是几十万年前在完全不同的环境中演化出来的。
And each law, in some ways, it's it's something that developed evolutionarily hundreds of thousands of years ago in circumstances that are completely different from the world that we live in.
所以它们在今天这个世界上并不完全适用，反而可能变成负面甚至破坏性的东西。
So they're not quite adaptive to to our environments, and they can turn into things that are quite negative and destructive.
所以这本书的目的，就是让你终于看清自己的本性——而第一条人性法则就是：我们总是否认它。
And so the point of the book is to make you finally aware of your own nature, of your own the fact so the first law of human nature is that we deny it.
总是别人不理性。
It's always the other person who's irrational.
总是别人自恋。
It's the other person who's narcissistic.
别人有情绪，可我不会有。
The other person who feels but not me.
不会吧。
No.
我可是圣人。
I'm a saint.
我完美无缺。
I'm wonderful.
我想把这一点拆开说清楚。
I wanna break that down.
我想打破你内心的那道墙，让你意识到你也存在这样的倾向。
I wanna destroy that wall inside of you and make you aware that you have these tendencies as well.
好的。
Alright.
我可能会打断你，但我们一步步来，边聊边深入。
I'm I'm gonna interrupt you Sure, and dig as we go each step.
当然。
Sure.
我最近一直在想，我们是不是都跟瑞安·霍利迪是朋友？
So I've been thinking lately, does you're we're all friends with Ryan Holiday.
瑞安是受你启发的。
Ryan was inspired by you.
我最近开始觉得，这种否认，其实说的就是认知失调，还有情绪上的自我保护机制。
And and I began thinking lately that that denial, and really we're talking about cognitive dissonance, and we're talking about emotional defense strategies.
在我看来，这可以分成两大类。
So there's, to me, there's two broad categories.
一种是情绪防御机制，我们的大脑天生就抗拒痛苦的感受，而这正是自恋的根源。
One is the emotional defenses and how our brain is structured against painful feelings essentially, and that creates narcissism.
而我们在现实中依赖的是认知系统，里面充满了我们不愿承认的漏洞。
And then what we use in the world is our cognitive system, which is full of glitches that we don't acknowledge.
是的。
Yeah.
我最近开始觉得，斯多葛主义某种程度上正是用来对抗这些认知失调的。
And I began thinking recently that stoicism is sort of a a check against some of those cognitive dissonances.
你不觉得吗？
Isn't it?
因为它一直在不断地自我校正。
Because it's it's checking it all the time.
对。
Yeah.
那么在书里，你是怎么建议人们去面对这些认知漏洞的否认的呢？
And so how do you how do you in the book tell people to address the denial of our cognitive glitches?
我基本上就是反复强调，你并不例外，这些特质你也有。
Well, I I basically batter you over the head with the idea that you're not exempt from these particular qualities.
所以我之前说，你提到你孩子也在读这本书。
That's why I said earlier, you mentioned that your children were reading it.
这书难的地方不在于篇幅长——确实挺长的，而在于我要你直面自己的本性，面对自己身上这些倾向。
It's kind of hard, not in the sense of of of the length of the book, which is, you know, it is long, but in the fact that I'm making you confront your own nature and your own tendency to have these things.
这本书的核心是培养一种自我抽离的能力，我认为这才是情感满足、获得幸福、应对复杂社会的关键。
And the point of the book is to develop some a degree of self distance, which I think is the key to any kind to emotional fulfillment, to happiness, to be able to navigate a very difficult complex social world.
我的意思是，你不能一味地被情绪牵着走。
And what I mean by that is that you just don't simply give in to your emotions.
也不能完全认同自己对自身的看法，而是要留出一点空间，保持距离。
You simply don't give in to your thoughts and ideas about yourself, but you create a little bit of distance.
我每天早上都冥想，想象自己从远处看着自己。
I I meditate every morning and I kind of imagine I'm looking at myself from like from here.
我知道，那个视角总是在我的右边。
I know it's always on my right side.
别问我为什么。
Don't ask me why.
如果我能再拉开一点距离，那就再好不过了。
And if I can create a little bit more distance, it's great.
但要能客观地看待自己并不容易，因为我们总是被自己的思绪、与他人的互动和情绪裹挟着。
But the ability to look at yourself and not be cut because we're continually caught up in our stream of consciousness, in in our interactions with people, in our emotions.
我们根本没有任何距离感。
We have no distance.
所以这本书的设计就是一点一点、慢慢来。
So the book is designed slowly inch by inch.
就像用撬棍一点点撬开空间，让你能开始观察自己。
It's like taking a crowbar, creating a little bit more distance so you can begin to observe yourself.
这并不意味着你的生活会变得冰冷、理性，失去所有情感。
This doesn't mean that your life becomes cold and rational and it's drained of all.
恰恰相反。
Quite the opposite.
恰恰相反。
The opposite.
它会让你感到轻松，甚至能增强这些积极的情绪。
It gives you a feeling of lightness and can even intensify some of these positive emotions.
是的，因为你真正与它们建立了联系。
Yeah, because you connect to them.
你承认它们的存在。
You acknowledge.
你感受它们。
You feel them.
你看见它们。
You see them.
没错。
Yes.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yes.
因为我们花太多时间分心，不去感受情绪。
Because we we spend a lot of time distracted and not feeling emotions.
是的。
Yes.
没错。
Exactly.
所以第一章，我到底写的是什么来着？
So so the first chapter, what do I did I write it down?
是 denial 吗？
It's sort of is it denials?
非理性。
Irrationality.
非理性。
Irrationality.
人们否认的另一件事，就是我们本身就不理性。
And that's the other thing that people deny is that we are irrational.
说白了，柏拉图曾经打过一个比方，说我们就像马车夫，被几匹马拉着走，而这些马代表的是非理性的部分。
And essentially, you know, we we you know, Plato sort of put laid it out there as, the idea that we are charioteers being pulled by these horses and the horses are the irrational system.
没错。
And Yeah.
你脑子里那个理性的部分，就像个车夫，努力想控制住那几匹马。
You're the sort of rational sort of person in the brain trying to control the horses.
对。
Right.
我一直觉得这个说法太简单化了。
I I I've always thought thought that was too just so.
倒也不是错，但太理想化了——其实那个车夫真正做的，是看着那几匹马，琢磨着：好吧，我该怎么理解眼下这局面？
Not not inaccurate, but too just so in the sense that really what the charioteer is doing is looking at the horses and going, okay, how do I make sense of this?
这到底发生什么事了？
What what what what what's going on here?
没错。
Right.
甚至都没意识到他其实就是在这么做。
Without even understanding that that's what he's doing.
对。
Right.
我用一个比喻。
Well, I use a metaphor.
这个比喻来自古希腊。
I got it from ancient Greece.
我觉得这个比喻就像骑手驾驭马匹那样。
I don't think it's played it with somebody else of the rider in the horse.
骑手代表你理性的一面。
And the idea is that the rider is your rational self.
对吧？
Right?
而马代表你的情绪。
And the horse are your emotions.
所以你不想偏重其中任何一方。
And so what you don't wanna do is you don't wanna emphasize one or the other.
你希望两者达到完美的平衡。
You want a perfect balance between the two.
如果你是骑手，却任由马想往哪儿跑就往哪儿跑。
So, if you're the rider on the horse and you just let the horse go wherever it wants.
是的。
Yeah.
那你就会完全失去掌控。
You have no control over it.
这样可不行。
No good.
这些动物力量很强。
These are powerful animals.
对吧？
Right?
但如果你太理性了，比如你紧握缰绳——我年轻时骑过马，
But if you're so rational, if you're holding the, if you go, I've ridden horses when I was younger.
如果你把缰绳拉得太紧，想完全控制它，
If you hold the reins too tightly, you try to control it.
马是不喜欢这样的，
The horse doesn't like that.
它没法发挥自己的力量和能量，
It it can't do, can't use its its power and its energy.
根本动不了，也不会听你的，
It won't go anywhere, won't obey you.
但如果你能和马融为一体，因为马对你的大腿压力等非常敏感，如果你理解自己的情绪，明白情绪才是你力量的源泉——就连爱因斯坦都承认，如果没有那种疯狂的灵感和执着，而这些都源于情感，他根本不可能提出相对论。
But if you kind of blend with the horse, because the horse is very sensitive to your thighs, etcetera, if you understand your emotions, if you understand that your emotions are the source of your power, you know, even Albert Einstein acknowledged that he could not have made his discoveries of theory relativity without this insane sense of inspiration and persistence had an emotional basis to it.
所以，理性背后其实有情感的基础。
So rationality has an emotional base to it.
对吧？
Right?
如果你陷入消极的模式，想摆脱它们，能觉察到这些模式的能力，其实来自你的挫败感——这是一种很强的情绪。
If you're stuck in negative patterns and you wanna get out of them, the ability to recognize them comes from your frustration, which is a powerful emotion.
神经科学发现，那些大脑受损、无法感受情绪的人，往往会变得极度不理性。
And they've discovered in neuroscience, people who've had some kind of damage to their brain where they cannot connect to their emotions become wildly irrational.
对吧？
Right?
没错。
Right.
你要想理性地回应别人，就得理解身边的人，有同理心，能感知他们的情绪。
You need the ability to understand the people in around you and have some empathy and sense what they're feeling in order to react to them on a reaction on a rational level.
所以理性并不是那种极端的自我压抑。
So it's not like rationality is this insane self control.
理性是一种对自身情绪的觉察。
It's an awareness of your emotions.
这是一种对情绪的觉察，让你能更好地驾驭它，利用情绪带来的力量。
It's an awareness of that horse so you can control it better and use the power that your emotions generate.
正如我们所说，要小心对待理性，不仅从控制情绪的角度，还要意识到理性本身也可能
And as we said, be careful with the rationality, not just from the standpoint of controlling emotions, also from the standpoint that it's
不是压抑。
not Repressing.
压抑情绪是这样，但这也是一种非理性。
It's repressing them, but it's also irrationality.
你知道，人的认知是有缺陷的。
You know, cognition is flawed.
你还需要跳出来，站在外面看待它。
You have to you have to stand outside of that too.
对。
Right.
对。
Right.
所以我一直觉得，很多人谈论的AI要创造人类智能，这根本说不通。
So it's why I always think that a lot of the AI systems over they talk about, you know, creating human intelligence.
我真的想不明白，这怎么可能实现。
I don't I don't get I don't see how possible.
我也不觉得可能。
I don't either.
没错。
Yeah.
这其实深入到了安东尼·迪马吉奥所说的‘笛卡尔的错误’。
And and really it really drills down into what, Anthony DiMaggio called Descartes' error.
对。
Yes.
当我们谈到情绪时，你说的是胸口那儿，也就是你的心，其实就是这样。
That it it really is we're talking about the you you when you were talking about emotions, put put on your chest, you know, it's your heart.
真正让我们产生感受的，是身体内部的种种活动。
There's there's stuff going on in our body is what gives us our feelings.
这些感受源自我们的身体。
They come out of our body.
对。
Yeah.
我持这样的观点，我注意到你一直回避这个说法，但我现在要提出来：身体里确实在进行某种实际的处理。
And I'm I'm of the opinion, I noticed you've shied away from this, but I'm gonna take it, which is that that there's actual processing going on in the body.
这不仅仅是灵感、动力或解决问题时伴随的挫败感这些情绪而已。
It's not just the inspiration, the drive, and the frustration, all the feelings associated with trying to solve a problem.
我认为，大脑所能接触到的整个身体状态，能完成某种线性、逻辑性思维难以高效独立完成的处理。
I think I think the holistic landscape of the body that the brain can access does a certain kind of processing that the linear, more, you know, logical brain can't do as efficiently without it.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
这不就是所谓的具身意识吗？
It's like is it called embodied consciousness?
是的
Yeah.
这是一种身体意识或身体推理，就像突然灵光一现——特斯拉。
It's it's body conscious or body reasoning, and it and it's like what, shoot, Tesla.
特斯拉突然间就想象出了白蚁，它们就这么自然地浮现在他脑海里。
Tesla, all of a sudden, imagined the the termites just sort of came to him.
好像他身体里某个部分已经把所有信息整合好了，然后呈现给了他的理性大脑。
It's like if there's some part of him processed it altogether and presented to his rational brain.
我觉得这确实是真实存在的。
I I think that's a real thing.
对。
Yeah.
我觉得我们对自己并没有真正理解到深层次。
I I don't think we understand ourselves on a very high level.
没错。
No.
我们根本没意识到，自己几乎被大脑和它构建的系统困住了。
We don't understand to the degree to which we are almost sort of prisoners of our brains and the system that it has created.
我们也不太懂自己的情绪从何而来，更不明白我们的思维是如何完全被这种系统嵌入的。
And we don't really understand our own emotions and where they come from and how our thinking is completely embedded.
正如你所说，思考和身体是分不开的。
You can't separate thinking from the body as you say.
或者也离不开人与人之间的互动环境。
Or or from the interpersonal context.
没错。
No.
所有这些其实都发生在一种具身的、
The the the all of it's happening in an embodied.
相互关联的世界里。
Interrelational world too.
是的，我在书里经常提到，你和别人的互动会不断改变你的想法。
Yeah, I talk about that a lot in this book, where your interactions with people are continually altering your thoughts.
没错。
Yep.
我们是社会性动物的产物。
We are products for social animals.
完全正确。
Oh, 100%.
是我们与他人互动的产物。
Are products of our interactions with people.
每天都在改变我们的思维方式。
They're every day they are changing how we think.
它们在改变我们的脑化学，对吧？
They're changing our brain chemistry, right?
一直如此。
Constant.
确实是这样。
So, yeah.
我先快速换一个话题，但你有没有从这本书里对当下这个时刻产生什么新的理解？
Do you have any I'm gonna jump into a different topic really quickly, but do you have any interpretation of the present moment that insight into it, that the book has given you?
因为这本书讲的就是人们太相信自己的想法，容易被当下的社会环境、情绪、恐惧等各种因素牵着走。
Because it is it is about the excesses of people believing their thinking and, you know, and being swayed by the social context and the emotions of the moment and the and the fears and all the things that are going on.
这其实正是我写这本书的原因之一。
Well, it's part of the reason that I wrote the book.
实际上，我是在2013年到2014年左右开始写这本书的。
So, actually, I began the book in twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen.
真的吗？
Wow.
对吧？
Right?
那时候我收到很多人的反馈，我本身也做咨询工作，渐渐感觉到大家正在慢慢失去一种我所说的‘抽离感’。
But I was getting a lot of feedback from people and I do consulting work And and I was getting a sense that people are slowly losing the ability to have what I was calling that distance, right?
他们陷得太深了。
They were so embroiled.
我觉得很大一部分原因在于科技，它加剧了人性中一些负面的特质。
And a lot of it, I think, comes from technology, which is sort of exacerbating some of the negative traits in human nature.
我们总觉得自己是极其先进、高度现代化的科技生物。
So we think of ourselves as these insanely sophisticated, modern technological creatures.
是啊。
Yeah.
但实际上，我们正变得越来越原始。
But in fact, it's making us more primitive by the moment.
没错。
Yes.
那种深植于我们本性中的部落本能，几万年前曾有它的适应意义。
Sort of the tribal instincts that are embedded in our nature that have an adaptive reason going back hundreds of thousands.
而且
And
这一点也体现在这本书里。
that comes into the book.
那种部落本能的内容也体现在书里。
The tribal stuff comes into the book.
没错。
Yes.
确实如此。
Yes.
毫无疑问。
Definitely.
那是单独一章吗？我有点记不清了。
Is that a separate I forget.
那是单独一章吗？
Is that a separate section?
我觉得书里好多地方都提到过这个。
I feel like I read a lot about it in the book.
这部分内容其实是贯穿全书的，不过我专门写了一章讲从众心理，讲我们如何完全被身边的人影响，有种模仿和病毒式传播的倾向，其他章节里我也提到过。
It's, it's kind of embedded throughout, but I have a chapter on conformity, on the conformity nature of us and how we are totally, products of of people that we associate with and that there, you know, there's the the mimetic tendencies and and and kind of the viral tendencies in our nature and and then I talk about it in other chapters as well.
是的，这个主题贯穿了整本书。
Yeah, it's throughout the whole book.
对，我感觉我读到过很多相关内容。
Yeah, I I feel like I read it a lot.
没错。
Yeah.
不过我没怎么注意到关于模仿机制本身的深入展开。
Although I didn't hear, I don't think I read much development of the idea of mimesis per se.
你读过勒内·吉拉尔的书吗？那些内容？
Did you do you read Renee Girard and all that stuff?
我确实读过勒内·吉拉尔的作品。
I do read Renee Girard.
你觉得他提到的这种模仿性激情怎么看？
And what what do you think about that memetic passion that he talks about?
这只是一个奇特有趣的理论，还是他真的抓住了什么关键？
Is that just a weird interesting theory or is he onto something?
我觉得他确实抓住了关键。
Well, I think he's definitely on to something.
我不敢说完全理解了他。
I can't say that I I understand him completely.
他是个非常深奥的思想家。
He's a very complex thinker.
是的。
Yeah.
他还把这和他强烈的宗教信仰联系在一起。
And he ties it in to his very powerful religious beliefs.
对。
Yes.
而且这一切都根植于他对文学和戏剧的深刻理解。
And and and it's all it's all embedded in his deep understanding of literature and and playwriting
以及相关的东西。
and things.
不过我在好几本书里都提到过，人类欲望的模仿特性。
But I I do talk about this in several of my books, the memetic nature of human desire.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我们总是以为，这种无知正是我们不了解自己的表现。
So we go around thinking this is part of the fact that we're ignorant of ourselves.
是的。
Yeah.
总觉得自己的想法是原创的，却没意识到，我们往往想要的东西，恰恰是别人也在想要的。
Thinking our ideas are our own, but we don't realize that we tend to want things that other people are wanting at the same time.
没错。
Right.
这其实就是我们骨子里的灵长类本能。
So, you know, it's it's the primate streak in us.
对。
Mhmm.
对吧？
Right?
这影响很大，力量很强。
Which is a lot, which is powerful.
毕竟我们是灵长类动物。
Well, we are primates.
是的。
Yeah.
如果你留意过孩子，我目前正在写关于童年的内容。
So, I mean, if you've ever observed children, I'm writing right now about childhood.
他们是非常出色的模仿者。
They are incredible mimetic creatures.
对吧？
Right?
他们特别擅长模仿，很多游戏都围绕扮演角色，模仿大人和他人，这也是骗子和骗子特别怕孩子的原因——孩子往往能一眼看穿他们。
They're masters at imitating, and a lot of their play revolves around role playing and imitating adults and imitating other people and it's why liars and con artists hate children because they can tend to see through them very very quickly and easily.
哦。
Oh.
所以，我总说，如果这种行为在孩子身上这么明显，那它一定深深植根于我们人性之中。
And so, if it's in I always say if it's in children, then it's something obviously deeply embedded in us.
当然。
Sure.
一种本能反应。
An automatic.
没错。
Yeah.
我经常思考的一个相关话题，是勒内·吉拉尔提到的这种替罪羊机制，他的逻辑在我看来最终指向了替罪羊现象。
The the thing I've I've I've I think a lot about as it pertains to escape this, medic passion that Renee Gerard talks about is that he he his logic to me leads to the idea of scapegoating.
对。
Yeah.
而替罪羊现象，如今依然普遍存在。
And scapegoating, is alive and well right now.
我其实并不在寻找那些把人类学和心理学结合起来的人。
And I I see, I don't think I'm I'm looking for people that tie together anthropology and psychology.
这一点我早就注意到了。
And I I've been seeing for some time.
上次我来的时候可能跟你说过，但现在情况变得更明显了。
I think I mentioned this to you last time I was in here, but it's it's become more obvious.
童年创伤加上自恋，往往会引发大量无法控制的攻击性。
Which is that childhood injury and narcissism creates a lot of unregulated aggression.
没错。
Right.
要疏导这种情绪，找替罪羊是最完美的方式。
And for that to be channeled, scapegoating is a perfect mechanism for doing that.
人们不会互相攻击，而是聚在一起针对某一个人。
So people don't attack each other, they get together and attack one.
没错。
Right.
而嫉妒是自恋的另一个副作用，它恰恰满足了这种嫉妒心理。
And because envy is the other, sort of, liability of narcissism, it gratifies envy.
换句话说，对我而言，嫉妒就是你拥有我想要的东西，我眼红了，所以就得把你拉下来。
In other words, envy for me is, you know, you've got something I want or I'm jealous of, so I gotta knock you down.
是的。
Right.
对。
Right.
这其实就是一种对待他人时的替罪羊机制。
And that's scapegoating in a sense of what should be doing with other people.
我写那本关于自恋的书时，就开始去翻历史资料。
And, you know, I started looking in history when when I wrote my book on narcissism.
我本来想加几章讲替罪羊现象，结果发现最典型的两个例子，一个是1790年法国的断头台，另一个是阿兹特克人——他们每天早上都会暴力地找个人当替罪羊。
I wanted to put a couple chapters in about scapegoating and I said, you know, the two biggest scapegoating examples I know of are the guillotines in 1790 in France and the Aztecs, where they scapegoated somebody every morning violently Right.
这是一种集中宣泄攻击性的手段。
As a way of focusing their aggression.
当你看阿兹特克人如何抚养孩子时，他们有一套叫《生育法典》的规矩。
And when you look at the the, how they raised children in the Aztecs, they had a thing called the codex for childbearing.
就是把孩子举到火上面，狠狠地虐待他们。
And it was holding your children over fires and just abusing the shit out of them.
你猜怎么着？
And guess what?
结果呢，这种极端暴力真把他们培养成了强悍的战士。
You created these great warriors as a result of this extreme violence.
但为了防止社会内部互相残杀，他们每天早上都会把这种攻击性转向外人，杀掉一个人。
But then to keep the society from not attacking each other, they would focus that aggression every morning on killing somebody Right.
他们用自己发展出来的一套说法来解释，你知道的，随便什么理由。
In the name of this thing that they developed, you know, whatever.
从来没人问过，人类学家只是说：哦，他们就是相信太阳必须升起。
No one ever asks you know, people just anthropologists go, well, they just believe the sun had to come up.
为什么会这样呢？
Why did that happen?
这到底是怎么发生的？
How did that happen?
这有什么进化上的好处？
What's the evolutionary advantage of that?
我觉得这种找替罪羊的现象就属于这一类。
And I think this scapegoating phenomenon is part of that.
法国大革命时的断头台，到今天所谓的‘取消文化’，都是一回事。
And then the guillotines in France, and now cancel culture today.
是的。
Yeah.
这全都是在逃避。
It's all escape.
这全是那种原始的替罪羊机制。
It's all that primitive scapegoating mechanism.
我就知道这事迟早会来。
And I I knew it was coming.
我就知道会这样。
I knew it.
我不确定会以什么形式出现。
I didn't know what form it would take.
但我就是知道这事迟早会发生。
I just knew it would happen.
我的意思是，如果这确实是人类本性中根深蒂固的一部分——我同意你的看法，这其实是我们把内心的恶魔、阴暗面和阴影投射到外部的表现。
Well, I mean, if it is something that's deeply embedded in human nature, which I agree with you and it is, it's part of our projecting outward our own demons and our own darks and our own shadow.
没错。
Yep.
你看看社交媒体的结构就知道了。
Just look at the structure of social media.
把某人当替罪羊，实实在在地找出来、伤害他、送上断头台，这是一种非常原始直接的体验。
So to scapegoat somebody literally to to find them and hurt them and put them in a guillotine is very visceral experience.
你看着国王的头被砍下来，而如今我们已经不太能接受这么激烈的事情了。
You're watching the king have his head cut off and you know, we we've become more we can't really tolerate such strong things these days.
是的。
Yeah.
但在网上，确实是这样。
But on the Internet Yeah.
在那儿没人认识你，你完全匿名，可以尽情释放内心那些阴暗的冲动。
Where nobody sees you, where you're completely anonymous, you can you can give vent to all of those dark sides of your impulses.
没人知道你其实是个躲在房间里胆小怕事的人。
Nobody will know that you're actually a very timid little guy in a room.
你就像个键盘侠，不管别人怎么叫它。
You're like a keyboard warrior, whatever they call it.
对吧？
Right?
但这其实就是找替罪羊。
But that's scapegoat.
这就是为什么我说，原始的冲动和最精巧的文明，在某个点上其实是同一种东西。
This is why I say the the primitive and the most sophisticated kind of kind of kind of meat at a certain point.
所以现在，在社交媒体上，你可以尽情发泄这种找替罪羊的行为，却不用付出任何代价。
So now, you know, on on in social media, you can give vent to all of that scapegoating and never pay a price.
对。
Right.
没人看得到你。
Nobody ever sees you.
你根本不用亲眼看到那些被你抵制的人，不用看见你给他们带来的伤害，而他们可是有血有肉、有自己的生活的普通人，可能被你彻底毁掉。
You don't have to actually witness the people that you're canceling, the pain that you're causing, because these are human beings with their own lives who can be completely wrecked.
而且，
Well, and
你和这一切已经完全脱节了。
and You're so alienated from it.
你根本看不到这些后果。
You don't even see it.
不只是看不到，他们还觉得自己在做一件高尚的事，甚至有种宗教般的正义感，好像自己是在惩罚一个罪人。
Well, not only they don't see it, they they feel a moral superiority and justification in doing it, almost a religious, you know, like, I'm punishing a sinner.
这本来就是你应该做的。
This is what you're supposed to do.
我这么做是对的。
I'm right in doing
没错。
this.
对。
Right.
真怪。
Weird.
那本书里是怎么说的？
What does the book tell you about that?
什么？
What is what?
你的书里有没有提到怎么解决这个问题？
Does it your book, does it solve that in some way?
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我不记得有解决这个问题的方法。
Don't remember a solution to that problem.
我的意思是，你并不是什么圣人。
Well, I'm trying to say you're not a saint.
这其实一直是我写作的核心观点，从1998年第一本书就开始了。
I'm really it's been the point of my books going back to my first book in 1998.
最终接受你作为动物的本性吧。
Come to terms with your animal nature finally.
明白吗？
Okay?
别再理想化自己了。
Stop idealizing yourself.
别总觉得自己比别人高尚，比别人道德，比别人理性，比别人更能掌控自己——你只是在骗自己。
Stop thinking that you are better than others, that you're morally superior, that you're more rational, that you're more in control of yourself because you're deluding yourself.
过去二十多年，我一直在用我的书反复强调这一点。
And I've been beating people over the head over it for twenty some years with my various books.
所以关键在于，你得意识到，你并没有自己想象的那么了不起。
And so the idea is you have to become aware of the fact that you are not as great as you think you are.
写这本书的时候，我也经历了这个过程——不是问题，而是这个过程。
And I had that problem as I was writing the book, not problem, but that that process.
我正在写第二章，讲的是自我中心和自恋。
So I'm writing a chapter, the second chapter on self absorption and narcissism.
我深入研究这个主题，虽然肯定没你书里写得那么透，但我读了很多相关资料，然后突然意识到：罗伯特，你其实挺自恋的。
I'm going deep into the subject, not as deep as you did in your book, I'm sure, but I'm going into the reading a lot about it and I'm going, wow, Robert, you're actually quite narcissistic.
你身上有各种自恋的迹象。
You have all kinds of signs of narcissism.
对吧？
Right?
你特别自我沉迷、自我中心，这个想法真让人难受。
You sort of you are very much self obsessed and self absorbed, and it was a painful thought.
这并不是某一天突然醒悟的。
It didn't hit me at one day suddenly.
这是一个过程，突然间你意识到，自己并没有想象中那么高尚、无私或超然。
It was a process, and it's suddenly becoming aware that you're not as as noble and altruistic and and disinterested as you think.
对吧？
Right?
这很痛苦，但非常重要。
And it was painful, but it was very important.
现在，有了这点自我觉察，每当我在与妻子、母亲等人相处时，发现自己又陷入自我中心，就能稍微抽离一点，提醒自己：你又在屈服于那种根植于人性中的自我沉迷了。
And now with that little twinge of self awareness, when those moments come where I realize I am being quite self absorbed in my personal relationships with my wife, my mother, etcetera, I have that little bit of distance and I can say, alright, you're giving into that self absorption that's embedded in our nature.
咱们得跟它保持点距离，试着改变这种模式。
Let's have some distance from it and let's try and alter that pattern.
自恋最危险的模式，就是像你说的那样，把所有问题都归咎于外界，觉得一切都是别人的问题。
The the really dangerous pattern in narcissism is the tendency to, as you say, project out and to blame everything out here for whatever's going on with me.
没错。
Right.
这种心态很难让人跳出来看清楚。
And and that's a hard people It's hard for people to get distance from that.
他们就是死活不肯接受。
They just They're just rigidly resistant to it.
当我看到事情快要爆发时，就是他们把自己的生活搞砸了，这才不得不面对。
And and, you know, when I see it coming to a head is when it, you know, they create a mess in their life and it breaks through.
然后一瞬间，现实扑面而来，有时候简直让人喘不过气。
And then all of a sudden there's like a a rush of reality which is overwhelming sometimes.
但即便如此，还是
And it still doesn't still doesn't
这并不一定真能改变他们。
It it doesn't necessarily change them.
确实如此。
That's true.
要改变，他们得付出大量努力。
They have to a lot of work to change.
我是说，我明白。
I mean, I know
我曾经在一家叫美国服装的公司工作过。
I worked together, at a company called American Apparel.
我当时是董事会成员。
I was on the board of directors.
他是市场部的负责人。
He was the head of marketing.
而那位首席执行官，因为我在书里谈到了自恋型领导者。
And the CEO, because I talk in the book about narcissistic leaders.
对。
Mhmm.
历史上有一种奇怪的现象，就是人类特别容易被自恋型的领导者吸引。
And it's a strange phenomenon in history, how we humans are very much attracted to narcissistic leaders.
在商业领域我们就能看到这种现象。
We see it in business.
在政治领域就更明显了。
We see it certainly in politics.
对吧？
Right?
没错。
Yep.
所以这个管理公司的人，多夫·查尼，他其实跟我挺熟，甚至主动跟我交朋友，但这个人极度自恋，完全缺乏自我认知。
And so this man who ran the company, Dove Charney, who actually was kind of a friend of mine or he befriended me, was incredibly narcissistic, but he had no self awareness at all.
每当中出现任何问题，公司一年一年地走下坡路，他总是不停地找替罪羊。
So whenever any problem arose and the company was slowly going down the toilet, you know, year by year by year, It was always, he was scapegoating continually.
问题永远都是别人的错。
It was always other people.
他从来不肯正视自己，承认正是自己制造了这些混乱。
He can never look at himself and say, I am the source for the chaos that I'm creating.
最后，公司彻底垮了。
And finally, the company tanked.
破产了。
It went bankrupt.
他失去了自己一生的心血，却依然不肯承认。
He lost control of his life's work, and he still was in denial.
他到现在还在打官司，说我们解雇他是找错了理由。
He still is trying to have lawsuits and say, we fired him for wrong reasons.
他做的每一件事都是对的。
Everything he did was correct.
这些防御机制，其实早在童年就形成了，用来避免面对那种痛苦的自我觉察。
So these are defenses that are built in early childhood, right, for protecting people from having that kind of painful self awareness.
感到渺小。
Feeling small.
感到渺小或者羞耻。
A feeling small or shameful.
渺小又脆弱。
Small and vulnerable.
是啊。
Yeah.
这些防御机制是多年积累起来的。
And they're built up over years.
就算面对像失去公司这样的现实打击，那些心理高墙也不会轻易倒塌。
There are walls that are wrecked, and those walls aren't gonna come down easily even with a blast of reality like losing your company.
没错。
Yep.
确实如此。
That's absolutely true.
我想，我们其实都多多少少敬佩这种坚持。
And and I guess we all kind of admire that.
天啊。
Woah.
你看，我们还在拼命抗争。
Look how we still fight.
如果你说，我觉得好像有人说过这话，好像是科罗拉。
If you It's like it's somebody I think Corolla said this once.
他说，你知道，枪要是对着你，那确实是个问题。
He goes, well, know, guns are a problem, if they're pointed at you.
但如果你用它来保护自己，那就会觉得有它真好。
But if you're using them to defend yourself, you're kinda glad you got them.
也许这就是我们对这些东西着迷的原因。
And so that maybe that's why we're attracted to that stuff.
但他有没有做过那种事？就是在他那个世界里，专门挑你出来，说‘你是我唯一信任的人’，‘只有你能做这个’，‘你最棒’之类的？
But it's did he do that thing where, he would anoint people like you in his in his world like, you're my man, only you can do this, you're the best at this.
他有没有用这种方式，来慢慢操控你？
You know, did he do that kind of stuff to sort of grooming?
是的。
Yeah.
他确实对我进行了操控。
He did groom me.
他一直在刻意吸引我。
He was definitely seducing me.
他说，他们这么做真的很特别。
He said It's really interesting the way they do that.
他们总是说，只有你，只有你才能成为我生命中的那个人，
They're always like, oh, only you are only you could be the one for me in
在这份工作上。
this job.
人们对自恋，尤其是病态自恋者，常常存在误解。
Misunderstanding It's people have of narcissism and people who were toxically narcissistic.
他们确实具备某种程度的病态共情能力。
They do have a degree of a kind of pathological empathy.
他们能看透你，尤其擅长捕捉你的脆弱和弱点。
They're able to see into you and to see your vulnerable mostly focused on your vulnerabilities and your weaknesses.
没错。
Yes.
而且他们还特别擅长营造魅力和吸引力。
And they've developed a degree of charm and charisma.
哦。
Oh,
当然。
sure.
因为他们从小就知道，可以任性妄为。
Because they learn in childhood that that they can act out.
他们可以表现得非常戏剧化，因为自恋者往往极其夸张，同时又充满自信，这对他人的吸引力很强。
They can be dramatic because narcissists can be incredibly dramatic, and they can have this level of confidence, and it can be very appealing to other people.
对吧？
Right?
所以他明显是想组建一个完全忠于他的团队，好让他为所欲为。
So he was definitely he he wanted to create a board that would protect him, that would be incredibly loyal so that he could do whatever the hell he wanted to.
所以，我从很早就被他操控了。
So, yeah, I was being groomed early on.
他读过我写的《权力的48条法则》，管它叫自己的圣经。
He was I wrote a book, The 48 Laws of Power, which he called his bible.
他真的叫我耶稣。
He actually called me Jesus.
哎，这下可说中了。
Oh, there you go.
这正是我想说的。
That's the stuff I'm talking about.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
他们会为自己的核心圈子加冕。
You're you're they anoint their their inner circles.
但讽刺的是，当我开始看到他垮掉时，我也开始批评他。
But the irony is, as I began to see him crumble, I started trying to criticize him.
我试着对他说：‘多夫，你得改改你的做法了。’
I tried to say, look, Dove, you need to try to alter your ways.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
你知道的，在这个行当里，品味每分钟都在变，你没法死守一种风格。
You know, you're in a business where tastes are changing by the minute you can't hold on to this one style.
是的。
Yeah.
你还得学会更好地管理，身边得有能帮你分担各种琐事的人。
You also have to, you know, manage better and have people around you that can take off some of the etcetera etcetera.
他就是不听我的。
He would not listen to me.
就算我是耶稣，就算我是主，可一旦我开始批评他，我就成了反派。
Even though I was Jesus, even though I was the Lord, when it came to the point where I was starting to criticize him, I I turned into the villain.
本节目由BetterHelp在线心理咨询赞助。
This podcast is sponsored by BetterHelp online therapy.
你也知道，我之前已经说过好多次了。
And, you know, you've heard me talk about this many times.
人们应该在出现严重症状之前就考虑接受心理治疗，真正阻碍大家关注心理健康的原因，其实是社会对心理问题的偏见。
People need to think about therapy before it's later, before they start having really significant symptomatology, and it is stigma that gets in the way of people taking care of their brain the way they would take care of any other organ.
现在有了BetterHelp，一切都变得简单多了。
And now with BetterHelp, it is so much easier.
BetterHelp提供定制化的在线心理治疗，支持视频、电话，甚至实时聊天，随时和你的治疗师沟通。
BetterHelp has customized online therapy that offers video phone, even live chat sessions with your therapist.
如果你不想露脸，完全不用开摄像头，也不用再忍受去诊所候诊的那种尴尬，很多人都特别害怕这个。
You don't have to see anyone on camera if you don't want to, and you certainly don't have to suffer the indignity of running to somebody in the waiting room, which I think people are very frightened about.
这些通通都不存在。
And there's none of that.
它的费用比面对面咨询便宜多了。
It's much more affordable than in person therapy.
我们能在48小时内为你匹配到合适的治疗师。
We match with a therapist in under forty eight hours.
顺便说一句，那些在候诊室里的顾虑，其实也是偏见造成的，朋友们。
And by the way, all that waiting room stuff is just more stigma, guys.
不过，好吧。
So but but okay.
那就试试BetterHelp吧。
So use BetterHelp.
去体验一下。
Give it a try.
看看为什么已经有两百多万人选择了BetterHelp的在线心理服务。
See why over 2,000,000 people have used BetterHelp online therapy.
《Doctor Drew》节目的听众，现在注册betterhelp.com/drew，首月可享九折优惠。
And for the Doctor Drew show listeners, you can get 10% off your first month at betterhelp.com/drew.
网址是 betterhelp.com/drew。
That is better,help,.com/drew.
BollAndBranch。
BollAndBranch.
我们特别喜欢BollAndBranch和他们所有的产品。
We love BollAndBranch and all their products.
床单是丝滑柔软、轻盈透气的有机棉缎纹面料。
Buttery, soft, lightweight, organic, cotton, satin weave for sheets.
你听我说。
You I'm listen.
这礼物真的太棒了，要是有人送我BollAndBranch，那他立马就是我最好的朋友。
I this is such a great gift too, but I if somebody gave me BollAndBranch, they are now my best friend.
不热不冷，刚刚好。
It's not too hot, not too cold.
BollAndBranch注重品质，而不是数量。
BollAndBranch focuses on quality over quantity.
采用更高标准制作，100%有机棉。
It's made to a higher standard, a 100% organic cotton.
生产过程合乎道德，再没有什么比不合身的床单更让人头疼的了。
Ethical production, nothing worse than fitted sheets that don't fit.
BollAndBranch 的床单深度有17英寸，特别深。
With BollAndBranch, they offer 17 inch deep fitted sheets.
没错。
That's right.
而且边角都有标签，帮你每次都能整齐地铺好床。
And labeled sides to help you make your bed beautifully every time.
最重要的是，价格公道，还提供30天无风险试用，包邮且可免费退换。
Best of all, BollAndBranch gives you a fair price, plus a thirty day risk free trial with free shipping and returns.
BollAndBranch 真的是最好的。
BollAndBranch are the best.
我每晚都睡在上面。
I sleep on them every night.
我们用的是那种奶油色的。
We have the just we have sort of a creamy colored one.
你听好了。
Listen.
我买来当礼物送人，舒适、环保，品质好，价格也公道。
I bought them as gift, and they are comfortable, sustainable, quality at a fair price.
没错。
That's right.
如果你也想入手一套BollAndBranch的床单，结账时输入优惠码drew，首单立减15%。
And for those of you out there that want some BollAndBranch, get 15% off your first set of sheets when you use promo code drew at checkout.
网址是bollandbranch.com，优惠码drew。
That is bollandbranch.com, promo code drew.
结账时输入优惠码Drew，就能享受床单15%的折扣。
You can get 15% off your sheets when you use promo code Drew at checkout.
BollAndBranch，网址bollandbranch.com，记得用优惠码Drew。
That is BollAndBranch, bolland,branch.com, promo code Drew.
我来跟你分享一个关于自恋型人格的有趣观察。我这一辈子，从职业到家庭，接触过不少这样的人，尤其是我父亲，他特别典型。
So here's an interesting Let me give you an interesting insight of a narcissist, as somebody who's dealt with some my whole career and my whole life really, because, my parents were fairly narcissistic and my my dad particularly.
是啊，你也是。
Yeah, you too.
其实我们很多人都经历过，嗯，咱们不妨说实话。
And and, all a lot of us, it's been a Well, let's be fair.
尤其是这个国家，近年来出现了一种明显的趋势，越来越多的人表现出自恋型人格特征。
There's been this there's been a massive, sort of shift towards narcissism as a general personality style in this country particularly.
我在八十年代就注意到了，刚去精神病院工作的时候，那是八十年代初。
And I saw it in the eighties, I was working in a psychiatric hospital, early eighties when I first got there.
那时候，病人要填一张单页纸，用来做人格诊断。
They'd fill out this one page where you put the personality diagnosis.
我刚去的时候，诊断结果五花八门，各种类型都有。
And when I first got there, it was all over the place, all kinds of different personalities.
但到了八十年代末、九十年代初，几乎全是B类人格——自恋型、反社会型、边缘型。
And by the late eighties, early nineties, it was all cluster b, narcissist, sociopath, borderline.
再也没有其他类型了。
Never anything else ever.
我当时就觉得，肯定有什么变化发生了。
And I thought, oh, something's happening.
这太奇怪了。
This is weird.
我一开始还以为是他们诊断过度了，或者只是赶时髦什么的，但不是，完全不是。
And first I thought it was sort of they were over diagnosing or over, I don't know, there was a fad or something, but oh, no, no, no.
这确实是一种现象。
It was a thing.
当你在自恋者身边长大，孩子其实对一切都看得清清楚楚，对吧？
And so when you grow up with a narcissist, you are children pick up on everything, right?
当然。
Sure.
所以我特别能感受到我爸内心深处的痛苦，我得时刻保护自己。
And so, I was acutely aware of my dad particularly, very painful inner core that I had to protect.
你得保护他。
You had to protect him.
我得保护他，免得他
I had to protect him from, And
所以，当你在保护那个有自恋倾向的父母时，不知不觉就配合了他们的所有自恋防御机制，因为你能感受到他们内心深处的创伤——那种我们称之为自恋性伤害的痛苦，你只想替他们挡住它。
so, you end up cosigning all the narcissistic defense as a participant in protecting that individual because you sense that deep wound, that deep narcissistic injury, we call that, and you wanna protect them from it when they're your parent.
问题是，自恋型的领导者 somehow 能察觉到这一点，然后利用这点把你牢牢绑在他们身边。
The problem is the narcissistic leader somehow senses that and then uses that to keep you engaged with them.
我遇到过这样的人，因为我爸的关系，我对自恋型领导者特别了解。
I had one, and I'm really good with narcissistic leaders because of my dad.
我清楚地知道他们正在做什么。
I'm aware of what is happening.
没错。
Right.
尽管我根本控制不了自己的反应。
Even though I can't really stop what I do.
我还是会去迎合他们、保护他们，做所有那些事。
I still gratify them and protect them and all that stuff.
当然。
Sure.
但最后，你总会走到那么一个时刻。
Except what happens is eventually you reach a point.
我讲这个故事，是想让大家明白，如果你遇到自恋型上司——这种情况其实很常见，该怎么办。
This is I'm I'm going down this story so people can understand what they do to do if they have narcissistic bosses, which is common.
总有一天，他们会完全无视你的需求。
You will There will be a point where they just don't listen to your needs.
你们的优先级和你真正需要的东西，开始出现分歧。
They There's a divergence in your priorities and what you need.
我曾经遇到过一种情况，我多年向一位我非常敬重的上级抱怨，一遍又一遍。
I I was in one situation where I complained, complained, complained for years to a to a superior that I admired greatly.
最后我终于意识到，我得突破他们的自恋防御机制。
And finally, thought, oh, this I have to I have to blow through the narcissistic defense.
我得请律师。
I have to hire an attorney.
我得闹个天翻地覆。
I have to raise holy fucking hell.
是的
Yeah.
对
Yeah.
然后伤口就暴露出来了。
And then the wound emerged.
你受伤了，我本来以为你是靠得住的，结果我伤得这么深。
Wounded, you were my man, I'm so wounded.
是的
Yeah.
没错
Yeah.
然后我当然就出场了，去救他一回
And then of course, then I come in and rescue him a
稍微帮了点忙。
little bit.
我实在受不了这个。
Like I can't tolerate that.
真的受不了，这
Can't tolerate It's
是之前形成的模式。
pattern that was developed.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
That's right.
但伤口，伤口就在这儿。
But the wound, there comes the wound.
那时候我终于被听见了，也做出了一些改变。
And I was able then to be heard and make some change.
虽然我后来把一切都修补好了，我们又回到了原来相处的方式，我也挺接受的。
Even though I was able to sort of glue everything back together again and we were off we went in our original strategy with each other, which was okay with me.
我明白当时发生了什么。
I understood what was going on.
我们遇到了一个大问题，但我就是说不上话。
I just had to We had a massive problem, and it just I couldn't get heard.
所以我不得不彻底拆掉你和对方之间建立起来的那套东西，这会让他们特别困惑。
And so, I had to You have to literally dismantle the structure that you've built with the individual and it's very confusing to them.
是的。
Yeah.
尤其是如果你从小在自恋型父母身边长大。
Particularly if you grew up with narcissistic parents.
如果你没接受过心理治疗，根本做不到。
What's if what's if you haven't had therapy, it's impossible to do.
我接受了大量的心理治疗，所以才终于看清楚了。
I had lots lots of therapy and that's why it came clear to me.
我当时就想，天啊。
Was like, holy shit.
当你有一个自恋型父母时，最后你几乎也会变得像自恋者一样。
And you end up when you have a narcissistic parent almost being to narcissists.
哦，完全没错。
Oh, what 100%.
试图去修复最初的关系。
Trying to kind of repair the original
确实有心理学家会明确这么说。
You're people there are psychologists that would say that explicitly.
我觉得这背后更深层的原因是进化和生物层面的，就像弗洛伊德说的创伤重演，或者叫强迫性重复。
I think it's something more deeply evolutionary biological in the sense that it's what Freud called traumatic reenactments or or Freud called repetition compulsion.
没错。
Sure.
现在人们管这叫创伤重演。
Now today call traumatic reenactment.
对。
Right.
换句话说，我五岁之前就深受创伤，那种伤口的感觉让我一遍又一遍地被类似的东西吸引。
So in other words, it was so traumatic to me early under age five to sense that wound magically, I'm attracted to that same stuff over and over.
如果你在关系中总是反复回到这样的人身边，那背后一定有原因。
So if you're in relationships where you keep going back to that kind of person again, there's a reason for it.
这就是所谓的创伤重演。
It's a traumatic reenactment.
这种内在的模式很难改变，需要大量以情感为中心的治疗才能真正扭转。
And that internal landscape is really hard to change and takes a lot of emotionally focused therapy to really
确实很难改变。
change it.
我在想，这里会不会有什么关联。
I think it's I'm wondering if there's any connection here.
你听说过心理学家罗纳德·费尔贝恩吗？
Do you know Is the psychologist Ronald Fairburn?
费尔贝恩是最早提出这套理论的人之一。
Fairburn is is one of the original theorists about this stuff.
客体。
Object.
客体关系理论。
Object relations theory.
是的。
Yeah.
但后来这个理论还继续发展了。
But there But they But that evolved even from there.
我还研究过科胡特和其他这些人。
I went to Kohut and and all these guys.
但这些都是关于自恋的理论。
But but it's all theories of narcissism.
想用理论框架来理解这些事，其实挺难把握的，因为它们根本没法被理论完全框住。
But really to try to understand these things in a theoretical framework is a little bit slippery because it doesn't fit theoretical frames.
那是一种源于情感和身体体验的东西。
That was an emotional bodily based thing.
没错。
Definitely.
实际上，更有意义的方向是所谓的主体间神经生物学。
And it really is about I I think the more fruitful area is what's called intersubjective neurobiology.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
这真是令人兴奋的研究。
It's very exciting stuff.
人们学会相互调节情绪和状态。
Where people learn to regulate each other.
你的书是讲儿童的吧。
I mean, is your book on children.
去看看艾伦·肖尔和史蒂文·波吉斯的研究。
Check out Alan Shore and and Steven Porges.
我得把这个记下来。
I'll have write this down.
我们做过几期，也许你可以聊聊我和他们做的那些对话。
We did a couple maybe you can tell them the pods I did with them.
你可以听到他们谈论自己的理论。
You can hear them talking about their theories.
我发现这对所有事情都至关重要
I have found that to be fundamental to all
这些东西。
this stuff.
在费尔伯恩的研究里，我特别感兴趣的是道德防御这个概念。
Well, the the one thing in Fairburn that I I was interested was the concept of moral defense.
意思是，当你还是孩子的时候，如果父母没能给你想要的关注，你会觉得被抛弃了。
And the idea is that when you're a child and your parent is not giving you the attention that you want, you feel kind of abandoned.
是啊。
Oh, yeah.
你的反应不是生他们的气，而是觉得问题出在自己身上。
Your reaction is not to get angry at them, but to think something is wrong with you.
没错。
Correct.
但你要明白，这是童年时期非常普遍且自然的体验。
But understand that's a natural and universal experience of childhood
这种感受
that is
属于原始自恋，也就是觉得世界上所有事都跟自己有关。
part of primary narcissism, which is everything in the world is because of me.
对。
Right.
所以，无论发生什么事，你都会自然而然地责怪自己、感到羞愧、情绪低落。
Therefore, I automatically blame, shame, feel bad for whatever is happening.
因为你根本无法接受父母是软弱、脆弱、有缺陷的，这种想法太难承受了，毕竟你活着全靠他们。
Because you don't wanna believe that your parents are weak and vulnerable and flawed because that's an intolerable sensation because you're dependent on them for your survival.
对。
Correct.
不过我在想，听你这么说，当我们年纪大了，面对一个自恋型的领导者，陷入这种处境时，是不是依然在维持某种道德上的自我保护？
I'm wondering though, as I'm as I'm listening to you, whether that's something that happens as we get older dealing with a narcissistic leader where you're embroiled in this, where we're still having that bit of a moral defense.
我们不愿意相信他们有缺陷，这跟特朗普和他的追随者之间的现象其实是一回事。
But we don't wanna believe that they're flawed because we put you know, it's the same thing kind of with, like, Trump and the phenomenon of his followers.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我们不愿意相信这个人有缺陷或软弱，因为我们已经把自己的认同投射到他身上了。
We don't wanna believe that this person is flawed or weak because we've invested in them almost like their apparent figure.
我只是在猜测。
I'm just speculating.
不是的。
No.
不对。
No.
我想是的。
I I think yes.
但当我仔细想想，这更多是一种情绪反应，而不是能用理性说清楚的冲动行为。
But but it as I ruminate about it, it feels more emotional than something sort of rash that you can describe rationally
就是这样。
like that.
是的。
Yeah.
当然。
Of course.
所以你其实正处于一种创伤重演的状态，这正是你为什么会在这里。
And it so you're in a traumatic reenactment which is why you're there already.
顺便说一句，大多数陷入这种创伤重演的人，并不清楚自己为什么会出现，也可能完全记不起当初父母的脆弱，这层关系也不明显，所以他们只是单纯地想：这个人会保护我。
And by the way, most people that are in these traumatic reenactments aren't really aware why they're there or may not have any conscious memory of the early vulnerability of the parent, also it's not apparent to So their thing is just, no, this guy's gonna protect me.
这算是比较表面的现象，但本质上是一回事。
It's a more superficial kind of a thing, but it's the same phenomenon.
那个自恋的领袖会保护我。
The grandiose leader is gonna protect me.
对。
Yeah.
我在《人性》这本书里专门写了一章关于性格的内容。
Well, I have a chapter in the human nature about character.
人的核心部分有一部分是遗传决定的。
And the idea is that, there's an a core to us that is partially genetic.
我们的大脑天生就以某种特定方式运作。
Our brains are wired in certain particular way.
这还跟童年经历、依恋模式这些因素有关。
It also comes from our early childhood, from our attachment patterns, etcetera.
你现在应该正在深入探讨童年相关的部分了吧。
You must be getting deep into that stuff now with the childhood stuff.
是的。
Yeah.
其实，我的书有点不一样。
Well, actually, my book is a little bit different.
我稍后可以详细说说。
I could describe that later.
我正在写一本关于崇高的书。
I'm writing a book on the sublime.
哦，真厉害。
Oh, wow.
我想探讨儿童的大脑实际上是如何不同于成人大脑的。
And I'm trying to go into how children's brains are actually wired different than adult brain.
这确实如此。
Which is true.
而且我们通常完全不记得三岁、四岁、五岁时对生活的体验。
And how actually we don't have any consciousness of how our experience of life when we were three, four, five, we don't even remember usually.
没错。
Right.
但那是一个情感极其强烈的时代。
But it was a time of incredibly intense experiences.
对。
Yes.
我把崇高感和我们情绪的强烈程度联系在一起。
I connect the sublime to the intensity of our of our emotions, etcetera.
但我们对此毫无觉察，因为成年人的大脑结构完全不一样。
But we have no awareness of that because the adult mind is is wired completely differently.
所以我正在深入探讨这一点。
So I'm really going kind of deep into that.
像《哲学婴儿》这样的书。
Books like The Philosophical Baby.
我不太清楚。
I don't know
如果你读过这本书的话。
if you ever read that.
没读过。
No.
挺有意思的。
Interesting.
听起来很棒。
Sounds fantastic.
是的。
Yeah.
不过，咱们还是回头说说你提到的个性问题。
Anyway But but let me go back to you so the character thing again.
彼得·福尼吉对依恋和先天遗传特质的解读非常独特。
I, Peter Foenigie has a really interesting way of of framing attachment and constitutional genetic qualities.
对吧？
Right?
这正是我们正在讨论的内容。
It's what we're talking about.
他 basically 是这么总结的，我觉得特别有见地。
He said essentially between he said he formulated it like this, which I thought was pretty insightful.
他说，在基因和环境之间，起作用的是依恋关系。
He said between the genes and the environment is attachment.
依恋是一种很特别的适应机制，能起到缓冲作用，真的很耐人寻味。
Attachment is an interesting sort of adaptive That's buffering very interesting.
我以前从来没这么想过。
I never thought of forming.
这确实挺有意思的。
It's an interesting.
对吧？
Right?
没错。
Right.
就算你天生有各种倾向，只要依恋关系是安全的，这些倾向都能被妥善处理。
You you could have all kinds of proclivities constitutionally, if the attachment is secure, all those proclivities can be managed.
你基因再完美，要是依恋不安全，那也就完了。
You can be a perfect genetic specimen, you have an insecure attachment, you're fucked.
所以关键是
So it's
真的很有趣。
really interesting.
我之前说的角色设定，其实是想表达，因为你根本没意识到自己内心深处的这部分，才会被困在这些重复模式里，这些强迫性的行为模式中
So what I was getting at in the character idea is that because you're not aware of this this this really hardcore part of yourself, you're trapped in these repetition pattern, these compulsive patterns that
你
you
之前提到过弗洛伊德说的那些。
talked about with Freud.
你总是不停地重复同样的事情，一遍又一遍。
And you're continually repeating the same things over and over and over again.
你正在吸引一些负面的情况到自己身边。
You're drawing to you certain negative situations.
我倒觉得，是你被这些情况吸引。
I would argue you're attracted to.
你确实被吸引。
You're attracted.
这一点从来没人提过。
Which is something no one ever talks about.
吸引力到底从何而来？
Where do attractions come from?
你为什么会偏偏被这种东西吸引？
Why would you be attracted to that?
这背后是有原因的。
Well, there's a reason.
没错。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
所以你生活中一直重复着这些模式。
And so you have these patterns in your life.
对吧？
Right?
赫拉克利特说过，性格就是命运。
And Heraclitus wrote character is fate.
所以你的性格决定了你的人生走向。
And so your character determines your fate in life.
唯一的希望就是意识到这一点，就像我这本书的主题是自我觉察，要觉察到这些模式，觉察到你的性格，也就是里希所称的‘性格盔甲’。
And the only hope is to be aware of this as I talk about the the subject of the book is self awareness, is to be aware of these patterns and to be aware of this character, you know, and what Reich called character armor.
这某种程度上是在保护你，让你免受世界的伤害。
It's kind of protecting you from the world.
有了这种觉察，你就可以开始了。我觉得，这种性格是改变不了的。
And with that, you can begin You can't alter this character, I don't think.
我的意思是，就算到了晚年接受治疗，也很难真正改变它，但你可以把它引导到不同的方向。
You know, I don't think even later in life with therapy, you can't alter it, but you can channel it in different directions.
你可以让它变得更有效率。
You can make it more productive.
你可以把它整合起来。
You can integrate it.
对。
Yes.
你可以让它更加整合。
You can make it more integrated.
我同意你的看法。
I agree with you.
经过多年的治疗之类的过程，我发现我并没有变成另一个人，只是有些事不再让我困扰了，有些情绪更稳定了，做决定的能力提升了，也能更自由地摆脱一些束缚，比如重复强迫这类东西。
Having, again, years of therapy and stuff like that, I've noticed that I'm not different, just certain things don't bother me, or certain things are regulated, or certain things are improved in terms of decision making or ability to be free of certain encumbrances like the repetition compulsion and stuff.
是的
Yeah.
但性格本身深深植根于我们的基因，以及成长过程中的经历和环境。
But the character itself, is deeply embedded in our genetic makeup and then our experience and context of growing up.
是的
Yeah.
还有他人，很多人——我觉得我在这方面强调得还不够。
And it's other people, and people don't I don't think I emphasize that enough.
我的意思是，从出生那一刻起，我们就置身于一个社会环境中。
I mean, we are embedded from the moment we are born in a social context.
自我是在人际互动中形成的。
The self emerges in an interpersonal context.
自我和他者，都是在这种互动中产生的。
That's where That's what generates the self and the other.
而情绪的整个调节机制，也是在主体间交流中逐步建立起来的。
And then the whole regulatory landscape of feelings is worked out in intersubjective exchange.
没错。
That's right.
对。
Yeah.
我记不得书里提到过这个。
I don't remember that come up too much in the book.
结尾那里有提到吗？
Did that come up towards the end?
主体间性？
Intersubjectivity?
对，我
Yeah, I
没看到，是结尾部分吗？
didn't Is that towards the end?
哦，整本书里都有涉及。
Oh, it's completely in the book.
我想不起具体是哪一章了。
I can't think of which particular chapter.
我有一章讲的是说服和影响力。
I have a chapter on persuasion and influence.
哦，对，我想聊聊这个。
Oh, yeah, I wanna talk about that.
讲的是我所说的如何应对自我认知。
On what I call dealing with your self opinion.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
说说这个。
Talk about that.
所以问题是，你每天在外面走动，看到别人对你的反应，却没意识到其实是你自己的行为引发了这些反应。
So the idea is that, you don't realize because you're going around in the world and you're seeing people react to you, but you don't understand that you're causing their reaction.
对吧？
Right?
没错。
Yep.
你对人的态度决定了别人怎么对你，而别人的反应又反过来影响你如何回应他们。
So your attitude towards people determines how they react to you, which determines how you react to them.
因此，你和他人的互动体验，正在不断改变你对自己的看法。
So your intersubjective experiences are altering your own opinion.
是的。
Yes.
而且这通常是一个反馈循环。
And you're often It's a feedback loop.
反馈。
Feedback.
你常常只是在确认自己本来就想相信的东西。
You're often confirming what you wanna believe in the first place.
对。
Mhmm.
有些最有意思的研究，比如那个叫什么来着，皮格马利翁效应——老师在课堂上，只要他们觉得学生能上大学、有潜力、聪明，
And some of the most interesting studies were things like, I can't remember the word, the Pygmalion complex or whatever it's called, where teachers in a classroom, if they've they've done studies, if they simply think that their students are going to college and are worthwhile and are, you know Smart.
聪明。
Are smart.
是的。
Yeah.
他们根本不用说出口。
They don't have to say it.
连一句话都不用说。
They never say a word.
但学生的行为就会因此改变。
It alters how the students react.
对。
Yep.
是吧？
Right?
对。
Yep.
如果连没说出口的想法都能影响人，那说出来的想法影响力该有多大啊。
So if thoughts that are not even expressed have an influence on people, imagine what the power is of thoughts that are expressed.
是吧？
Right?
没错。
Yes.
没错。
Yes.
我们其实完全被他人所影响，这种影响甚至超越了语言本身。
So we're completely embedded in other people in ways that go even beyond language.
当然了。
Oh, for sure.
可能就是那些连我们自己都没意识到的力量在起作用。
That's probably who even knows how we we're not even aware of how powerful that is.
我们根本看不清楚。
We can't really, really see it.
但说服力这东西挺有意思的。
But persuasion is an interesting thing.
我觉得在一个充满非理性因素的世界里，说服力往往起着主导作用。
I feel like in in a world with lots of irrationality, persuasion, holds sway.
我们得留意它在哪些地方发挥作用，还要学会以负责任的方式去影响他人。
And we have to kind of be aware of where it's operating and really understand how to use it on other people in responsible ways.
没错。
Right.
对吧？
Right?
也就是说，说服总是承认我们非理性的一面，然后顺着它来。
Mean, persuasion is always acknowledging our irrational nature and sort of going with it.
加里，你
To Gary, do you
顺便问一下，你有什么问题想问罗伯特吗？
have any questions for Robert, by the way?
我有点陷得太深了。
I'm getting deep in.
我都能感觉到你那边在认真思考。
I kinda feel you thinking over there.
我正在努力跟上。
I'm trying
有点应接不暇。
to keep up a little overwhelmed.
明白了。
Okay.
好吧。
All right.
行了。
Okay.
没错。
Right.
唉，真烦人。
So so, damn it.
我本来打算说，每小时我都会有个从新冠时期遗留下来的空档。
I was gonna go So people Every hour, I have a block left over from COVID.
加里每小时都听这个。
Gary hears this every hour.
你说什么？
You have a what?
我每小时都会觉得新冠对我的大脑造成了点影响。
I have a Once an hour COVID has done something to my brain.
你得过吗？
You had it?
是的，我得过。
Oh, yeah.
我得的是重症新冠。
I had bad COVID.
哦，我还不知道呢。
Oh, I didn't know that.
对，确实如此。
Oh, yeah.
耳朵里现在还嗡嗡响，我学语言就是为了摆脱那种头脑发昏的感觉。
It's still ringing in my ear, and I I learned languages as a way of getting over the fog and stuff.
这过程特别有意思。
So it was very interesting.
先学了希腊语，然后又回头把法语重新打磨了一遍，那股昏沉劲儿才慢慢散了。
A Greek, and then I went back to my French and really perfected it, and my my fog lifted.
我的
My
希腊语现在有点生疏了，
Greek is a little weak right now,
不过，确实如此。
but Well, yeah.
我得重新捡起希腊语，因为之前我掌握得还不错，但后来专心学法语，就全放下了。
I I Greek, have to go back to because I I was actually doing okay and then just gone when I went and focused on French.
哦，真的吗。
Oh, wow.
以前我每小时、每走一段路，不管想说什么，话到嘴边就突然忘了，真的，正要开口，念头就没了。
It once an hour, a block, whatever I was gonna say, it just I mean, something literally I'm about to say something, it just will go.
年纪大了，也会这样。
Now, aging does that too.
我也有这个问题。
I have that problem.
但是但是
But but
但要是和衰老有关，那就会消失。
when it goes with with aging, it goes away.
而且不会再回来。
It doesn't come back.
是的。
Yeah.
但要是感染了新冠，大概一百二十秒后就又回来了。
With COVID, it comes back in about a 100 and twenty seconds.
真的吗？
Oh, really?
这太奇怪了。
It's very weird.
大概每小时一次，加里以前也听过我说这个。
It's once an hour, and, Gary's heard me say this before.
好的。
Okay.
让我试试能不能把它找回来。
So let me see if I can get it back.
说服自己，没错。
Persuade yep.
在这儿呢。
Here it is.
所以是动机状态。
So motivational states.
这正是我在成瘾领域工作时经常遇到的问题——动机崩溃了。
That that's one of the the things that, you know, having worked in the field of addiction, of broken motivations.
对吧？
Right?
在某种意义上，动机是我们最深层的生物本能。
The motivations are, in some sense, our deepest biology.
对吧？
Right?
这关乎生存、繁衍和营养。
I mean, it's survival, it's reproduction, it's nutrition.
说白了，就是这些。
I mean, that's essentially it.
没错。
Right.
确实如此。
Right.
还有愤怒和攻击性，这些其实都跟防御机制有关。
And then anger and aggression, other things get, you know, it's defense and things get wound in there.
但我有幸，也饱受困扰地接触过那些动机系统受损的大脑。
But but I I've had the privilege, and the frustration of dealing with brains whose motivational systems are broken.
所以我亲眼看到，当生存不再是首要动机，而吸毒成了唯一驱动力时，大脑会怎样反应。
So, get to I get to see how the brain responds when the one when survival is no longer the motivational priority and using a drug is the motivational priority.
我明白了。
I see.
因为动机本身并不是有意识的，对吧？
And because motivations are not conscious, right?
它们更像是某种情绪基调或色彩。
They're just sort of tones, colors.
是的。
Yeah.
当事人其实根本没意识到自己处于这种状态。
The individual is really not aware that they're in that state.
如果他们有渴望，那他们是能察觉到的。
If they have cravings, they're aware of it.
但在我看来，渴望反而是好事。
But cravings to me are a good thing.
在成瘾研究领域，人们现在对渴望这件事太过执着了。
I've with the field of addiction has gotten obsessed with cravings.
渴求其实是个好信号。
Cravings are a good thing.
真的吗？
Really?
它是在提醒你，你的病还在活动，得采取行动了。
Lets you know your disease is active and well, and you need to do something.
我明白了。
I see.
动机失调开始影响你的思维、判断和情绪，其他一切都会为这种扭曲的动机服务。
The motivational disturbance starts affecting your thinking, your judgment, your feeling states, everything else starts to serve broken motivation.
我明白了。
I see.
他们常常会冒出一些看似完全合理的念头，却根本没意识到这些念头其实正推着他们走向使用。
And so they will often come up with these ideas that seem perfectly rational that they don't understand are pushing moving them towards using.
当然。
Of course.
当然。
Of course.
对。
Yeah.
因为那种动力确实存在。
Because that that movement is there.
动机就在那里。
The motivation is there.
是的。
Yeah.
尽管他们感觉不到。
Even though they don't feel it.
他们自己都没意识到。
They're not aware of it.
所以这真的很有意思。
And so it was really interesting.
看着这个崩溃的系统影响到其他所谓更高层次的功能，真的很有趣。
It's interesting to watch, you know, broken the broken system affecting all the other higher so called higher functions.
对吧？
Right?
你觉得我们每个人也都有这个问题吗？
Do you think that we all have that problem as well?
我们都受到它的影响。
We all are under the sway of it.
我们都得留心注意。
We all need to pay attention.
我能看出来
I can see
就连我自己，在某种程度上也是如此。
that even in myself to some degree.
没错。
Right.
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