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嘿，大家好。
Hey, everyone.
我是戴伦·杰梅利。
Dylan Gemelli here.
通常我不会这么做，但今天没有开场白，没有音乐，也没有广告。
And generally, I don't do this, but no intro, no music, no ads.
今天，我只是想给你们分享一点关于这次访谈的见解，因为这非常宝贵和特别。
Today, I just wanna give you a little bit of insight on this interview because this is extremely valuable and special.
我采访过世界各地的专家，特别是那些在肠道和微生物组领域最杰出、最知名的人物。
I have interviewed experts all over the world, specifically some of the most brilliant and well known when it comes to the gut and the microbiome.
李威廉医生、格伦迪医生、布兰德医生，名单可以一直列下去。
Doctor William Lee, doctor Stephen Gundry, doctor Jeffrey Bland, the list goes on and on and on.
这些是世界上最有名的专家。
These are some of the most world renowned experts.
但今天我们要采访的是科琳·卡特克利夫，她是Pendulum公司的创始人。
But today's interview with COLLEEN CUTCLIFFE, and she's the founder of Pendulum.
她是我迄今为止遇到过的最杰出的科学家，尤其是在肠道和微生物组方面。
She is the most brilliant scientist that I have ever yet to speak to, especially when it comes to the gut and the microbiome.
这一集将非常清晰简洁，直接为你提供所有你需要了解的信息，简单易懂，却充满知识与力量。
This episode is going to be so clear and concise to give you every single piece of information that you need to learn straight to the point, easy to understand, yet filled with knowledge and power.
我说的力量，是因为这些知识能让你以正确的方式掌握自己的健康。
And I say power because this knowledge will provide you power to take control of your health in the right way.
我们将深入探讨肠道的每一个方面，她会清晰准确地解释什么是肠漏症，如何治疗和护理，以及更多更多内容。
We get into every single aspect of the gut, and she gives a clear, precise understanding of what leaky gut is, how to treat it, how to take care of it, and so, so much more.
所以我强烈建议你完整听完这次访谈。
So I urge you to listen to this entire interview.
这是一场改变人生、甚至可能挽救生命的丰富知识盛宴。
It is a life changing, and I would argue life saving plethora of knowledge.
我与Pendulum没有利益关联，但我已经使用他们的产品好几个月了，我必须说，这些已经成为我每天的必备品。
I am not affiliated with Pendulum, but I've been using their products for several months and I have to tell you, these are my new daily staples.
他们为本集提供了一个链接，通过它你可以享受订单20%的折扣。
And they gave me a link for this particular episode where you can save 20% off your order.
我并没有与他们合作，但他们是我新最爱的公司，而科琳也是我新最爱的人之一。
I'm not affiliated, but they are my new favorite company, and COLLEEN is one of my new favorite people.
所以请继续关注。
So stay tuned.
你绝对不能错过这一集。
You do not wanna miss this episode.
好了，各位。
Alright, everybody.
欢迎回到《迪伦杰梅利》播客。
Welcome back to the DylanGemelli podcast.
所以今天我有一位非常博学且特别的嘉宾。
So I have a very, very knowledgeable and special guest today.
她在多个领域都给我留下了深刻印象，不仅限于她的专长——肠道和微生物组，我们之前已经有过几次讨论，今天会聊很多内容。
She has impressed me abundantly with all of the different aspects that she's covered, not just on her specialty, which is more gut and microbiome related, but we've had a couple discussions and we're gonna talk about a lot.
我喜欢展示那些在某一领域拥有高深知识的人，他们还能带来多少其他方面的价值。
And I like to show people that have a high level of knowledge in one category how much else they have to offer as well.
我认为今天的节目将最大程度地展现多样性，这正是我感到兴奋的地方，也是我最喜欢做的事情。
And I think today's episode is going to really spotlight and accentuate versatility to the highest degree, and that's what I'm excited about, and that's what I love to do.
所以今天我的嘉宾是Pendulum Therapeutics的联合创始人兼首席执行官，她是一位开创性的微生物组科学家和生物技术领袖，拥有超过二十五年指导学术界、制药业和生物技术领域高性能生物学团队的经验。
So my guest today, she is the cofounder and CEO of Pendulum Therapeutics, and she's a trailblazing microbiome scientist and biotech leader, and she has more than twenty five years of experience guiding high performing biology teams across academia, pharmaceuticals, and biotechnology.
她拥有约翰斯·霍普金斯大学的生物化学与分子生物学博士学位。
Now she has a PhD in biochemistry and molecular biology from Johns Hopkins University.
她擅长众多领域，知识渊博，我们今天会一一探讨。
She's got a slew of different things that she is good at, knows, etcetera, and we are going to get into that all today.
那么，不多说了，今天我的嘉宾是科琳·卡特利夫。
So without further ado, my guest today, COLLEEN CUTCLIFFE.
非常感谢你邀请我。
Thanks so much for having me.
当然，科琳。
Absolutely, COLLEEN.
谢谢你来到这里。
Thank you for coming here.
正如我所说，今天我们将会获得大量知识，我感到非常兴奋，因为之前与你交谈时，我就被你在Pendulum所做事业中的热情所打动，还有我们谈到的其他诸多健康领域。
As I said, we are going to get a lot of knowledge today and I'm excited because when I spoke to you before seeing the passion you had in what you do with Pendulum, but also in many other degrees of health that we talked about.
所以让我们先简单聊聊你的背景，然后再深入探讨，因为我已经多次讨论过肠道微生物组的重要性，但我更想深入细节，而真正能深入讨论的人其实很少，大多数人只是泛泛而谈‘肠道很好’之类的。
So let's just talk a little bit about the background first, and then we're gonna dig deep, because I've I've discussed gut microbiome importance a lot, but I really like to get more intricate into it, and I've really only had a couple people that get into it as opposed to just saying gut and how great it sounds.
那我们先从你的背景说起吧，因为你拥有非常多的资历。
So let's start a little bit with with your background here because you got a lot of credential.
很多头衔和多年的求学经历。
A lot of letters and years of studying.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Yeah.
所以早在二十岁出头的时候，我就决定将健康作为我人生要留下印记的领域。
So I I I sort of decided a long time ago in my early twenties that health is how I wanted to make my mark.
因此，我所做的一切、走过的每一条道路，都始终围绕着这个愿景：探索最聪明、最有意思的方式，帮助全球人群真正改善健康。
And so everything I've done, all the different paths I've taken have all been really focused on that vision, and and what are the most kind of smart or interesting ways that we can really help people improve their health at a at a at a global scale.
于是我获得了约翰斯·霍普金斯大学的博士学位。
And so I got my PhD at Johns Hopkins.
它拥有全美排名第一的公共卫生学院。
It has a the the number one school of public health.
它长期以来都是如此。
It has for a long time.
那里的研究不仅具有极其可信的科学性和研究价值，还关注如何帮助人类，如何帮助所有社群真正提升全球健康水平。
And the work that's being done there is not just incredibly credible science and research, but also how do we help humanity and how do we help all communities to really elevate health around the world.
因此，去那里上学既令人深受鼓舞，也因周围都是如此聪明的人而让人感到压力。
And so that was a very inspiring place to go to school, to be also intimidating with all these smart people around you.
之后，我在西北大学完成了一段相当传统的博士后研究。
And then I did a pretty traditional postdoc at Northwestern.
之后我加入了一家制药公司，担任研究员。
I joined a pharma company after that, working as a researcher.
我们当时正在开发治疗帕金森病的药物。
We were developing drugs for Parkinson's disease.
所以我学到了在农田中开发药物的蓝图。
So I learned kind of the blueprint for developing drugs in in farmland.
之后，我加入了一家初创公司。
And then after that, I joined a startup company.
我在那里负责生物学工作。
I was leading biology there.
我们正在研发一种DNA测序仪器。
We were building a DNA sequencing instrument.
DNA测序是一种非常酷的技术，尤其在微生物组研究和发现新事物方面。
And DNA sequencing is sort of a a really cool technology when it comes to the microbiome and discovering new things there.
在我任职期间，这家公司经历了快速增长。
And so that company went through a lot of growth while I was there.
它上市了。
It went public.
在那之后，我和两位联合创始人共同创立了Pendulum。
And on the other side of that, I started Pendulum with two cofounders.
我们都是科学家。
We're all scientists.
我们都想了解如何利用最新的DNA测序技术，去探索微生物组这一全新的健康领域。
And we all were trying to understand how could we use the latest in DNA sequencing to go after this entirely new area of health called the microbiome.
我非常兴奋能重新投入到干预措施的研发中，过去二十年来，微生物组领域在全球范围内都经历了惊人的指数级学习曲线，因此这是一个令人兴奋的领域。
And I I was super excited about getting back into developing interventions, and the microbiome for the last twenty years has just been this incredible exponential learning curve for everybody around the world, and so it's an exciting place to be.
在我看来，过去三到五年——对你来说当然更久——但就主流而言，有两个话题不断出现：线粒体和肠道，这确实像是一股巨大的潮流，而且是有道理的。
Seems to me, over the past three to five years let's say, and for you obviously longer, but I'm talking mainstream, two things that constantly pop up, mitochondria and gut, is that it is like the biggest craze and rightfully so.
问题是，很多人说了许多缺乏实质内容的话，导致了混乱，我想利用这段时间好好梳理一下其中的真相与谬误。
The problem is is there's a lot of people that say a lot of stuff without a lot of substance and there's confusion and I would like to take some of this time to really get into the the good and the bad.
什么是真正有价值的信息？
Like, what is the good information?
我们需要知道什么？
What do we need to know?
有哪些说法可能是虚假或误导性的？
And what is maybe some of the things that are said that are false or misleading?
因为我觉得这种现象很普遍，有时我认为这并不是故意的。
Because I think it's prevalent and sometimes I don't think it's on purpose.
我只是觉得人们在重复他们听到的东西。
I think it's just people repeating what they hear.
我最想了解的是，尤其是在肠道健康方面，如果要对影响我们健康的重要因素进行排序，哪些是最关键的？
What I would like to know first and foremost is when it comes to the gut especially, if you were to rate things of importance on our health that have the most impact.
嗯，你是在跟我谈话，所以我这个拿着锤子的人，看什么都像钉子。
Well, mean, you're talking to me so I have a hammer that sees everything as a nail.
所以我认为，肠道并不是你身体中最重要的系统。
So I do think that the gut, you know, isn't the most important system in your body.
显然，即使肠道功能不理想，我们大多数人也能生存。
Clearly, of us can live with a deficient gut that isn't optimally performing.
但我们现在了解到的是，通过肠道，实际上可以影响你身体内的全部11个生物系统。
And so but I think that what we're learning is that through the gut, you can actually impact all of the 11 biological systems in your body.
因此，不仅在胃肠道问题上，比如便秘和腹泻，肠道微生物组确实扮演着重要角色。
So when it comes to not just GI issues, like constipation and diarrhea, certainly the gut microbiome plays an important role there.
但它在你的新陈代谢、大脑功能、压力和焦虑，甚至帕金森病，以及免疫系统、过敏和哮喘，还有食物敏感性方面也起着重要作用，比如当你开始对某些食物产生过敏时。
But it also plays an important role in your metabolism, in your brain function, like your stress and anxiety, and even Parkinson's disease, in your immune system, so allergies and asthma, and then in your even your food sensitivities, so when you start to become allergic to certain foods.
随着年龄增长，我们很多人都会对不同的食物变得更加敏感。
Many of us as we age become more sensitive to different foods.
因此，所有这些不同的系统——你的新陈代谢、大脑功能、心血管健康——实际上都可以通过肠道微生物组联系并受到影响。
And so all these different systems, your metabolism, your brain function, your cardiovascular health, actually can be tied and impacted through the gut microbiome.
从这个意义上说，因为它与一切都有联系，所以它非常重要。
So in that sense, because it's connected to everything, it's so important.
因此，可以说它对我们健康的许多不同方面都有巨大影响，如果它出了问题，我们可能会因为肠道问题而导致多个功能异常。
So it's fair to say that it has a drastic impact on so many different aspects of our health that if it is off, that we could have several functions that are off because of a gut issue.
没错。
That's right.
我认为这其实是最重要的发现之一：你原本归因于其他原因的问题，现在可以开始追溯到肠道，也许正是它导致你感觉记忆力变差、新陈代谢变慢、总是疲惫不堪，或者饭后出现脑雾。
And I think that's actually one of the biggest learnings, which is that things that you might have been attributing to other stuff, you can start to point back to the gut as maybe the reason why you're not feeling like, oh, man, my memory is just getting worse, or oh, my metabolism is slowing down, or I'm just more tired all the time, or I have that post lunch brain fog.
而我们常常把这些都归咎于只是年龄增长。
And a lot of these things we chalk up to just aging.
随着年龄增长，情况就是这样。
Well, as you age, that's just how it is.
生活本来就是这样。
That's how it goes.
但这种情况并不一定非得如此。
And that it that doesn't necessarily have to be the case.
这就是肠道微生物组的巨大机遇。
And so that is the huge opportunity of the gut microbiome.
你刚说出了我想说的话，我本来想告诉你，我最受不了的就是‘这不可避免，因为你老了’，或者‘这是特发性的’，意思是我们根本不知道你到底哪里出了问题。
Well, you just took the words out of my mouth because I was gonna say to you, one of the things that I can't stand is it's inevitable because you're aging, or it's idiopathic, meaning we just don't know what the hell is wrong with you.
你认为有多少人其实正在遭受肠道问题，而全科医生却根本不去关注呢？
And how often do you think that people are suffering a gut issue where general practitioner doctors really don't look at it?
经常发生，如果你去看医生，有这些症状并寻求帮助，医生们并没有接受过关于肠道微生物组的培训。
All the time, if you're going to a doctor and you've got these symptoms and you're trying to get help, they are not trained in the gut microbiome.
从某种意义上说，这是一门相对较新的科学，而且这些干预手段还没有像某些药物那样得到充分验证，但医生们确实都没有接受过相关培训。
Mean, in some senses, it's a relatively new science, and the interventions are not proven out, you know, in the way that they are for some of these pharmaceutical drugs, but they're certainly not trained.
他们并不常规使用诊断测试。
They're not using diagnostic tests regularly.
他们不了解你的肠道微生物组参与产生的不同代谢物，也肯定不了解非药物类干预手段。
They're not learning about what the different metabolites are that your gut microbiome is involved in, and they're certainly not learning about interventions that are non pharmaceutical drugs.
所以，如果你正在接受传统医生的治疗，我并不想过分贬低医生——我丈夫就是一名医生——但如果你找的是传统医生，你是得不到这些信息的。
And so when you're if you're working with a traditional medical doctor, and I don't wanna slay medical doctors too much, my husband is actually one, but if you're working with a traditional medical doctor, you're not getting that.
所以，如果你找的是更注重整合医学和功能医学的医生，你可能会获得更多的这类信息，对身体有更全面的审视。
So if you're working with a practitioner who's more thinking about integrative and functional medicine, you're probably getting a lot more of that information, a much more holistic look at your body.
但总的来说，你是得不到这些的。
But generally speaking, you're not getting that.
而且正如你所说，你被开的药物虽然可能解决一个问题，却可能引发各种其他问题，包括严重破坏你的肠道健康。
And to your point, the things that you're being prescribed, while they may solve one problem, they could be creating all kinds of other problems, including wreaking havoc on your gut.
你的肠道实际上会适应你摄入的一切，包括药物。
And your gut will actually adapt to everything that you're ingesting, including drugs.
因此，如果你在服药，你的微生物组可能会有所不同。
So you can have a different microbiome if you're taking drugs.
但如果你在思考这个问题，其中一个明显的迹象是，很多人在开始服用新药后都会出现肠胃问题。
But one of the telltale things for you, if you're wondering about this, is many people when they go on a new medication, they experience GI issues.
所以如果你曾经服过药，最常见的是抗生素，那时你会觉得：天啊，
So if you've ever gone on a medication, most commonly antibiotics is where people experience it, and you're like, oh, man.
突然间，我的胃总是特别不舒服。
All of a sudden, my stomach is, like, really upset all the time.
你确实已经影响到了你的肠道。
You've you've definitely impacted your gut.
是的。
Yeah.
接着你刚才说的，我在这里提出这些观点，从来不是为了针对任何人，但如果你有一辆高端进口车，你不会把它送去普通修理店吧。
And to follow-up on what you said, when I make points on here, it's never to take a shot at anybody, but if you have a high end foreign car, you're not taking it to a regular mechanic.
对吧？
Right?
每种东西都有其专门的维修方式。
There's a specialty for everything.
所以对我来说，当我有心脏问题时，我不会去找我的全科医生，我会去找专科医生，这就是为什么他们被称为全科医生，因为他们只处理普通医学，而像你这样的人是专科医生，所以你们才做你们的工作。
So when we have a like for me, when I had a cardiology problem, I wasn't going to my general doctor for that, I'm going to a specialist, that's why they're called general because they just work on general medicine and then there's people like yourself that are specialists and that's why you do what you do.
一般来说，全科医生通常会把你转介给其他人，这也是他们工作的一部分。
And so general whatever just normally sends you to somebody else, and that's part of their job.
当然。
Definitely.
而且我希望全科医生能开始了解这一点，因为这与许多不同的症状都有关联。
Well and what I hope is that the general practitioners will start to learn about this because it is connected to so many different symptoms.
而且很多时候，你的全科医生、你的内科医生是你唯一了解你所有用药和情况的人，对吧？
And and oftentimes, your generalist is the only one your internal medicine doc is the only one that knows all the different stuff you're taking and doing Right.
他们负责把所有这些信息整合起来。
And is there to pull it all together.
所以我认为，让这个群体开始接受相关教育非常重要。
So I think that's an important group to to start to get educated.
我同意。
I agree.
你知道吗，当我最沮丧的时候，我去了梅奥诊所，那里是终极权威。我去那里是因为我有腰椎穿刺方面的问题，虽然这跟我们现在聊的无关，但当他们告诉我：‘我们对这个问题了解不够，给你开这种药是不合适的’时，我坐在那里看着我妻子和我妈，给了她们一个眼神，心想：真的吗？
You know, when I got the most discouraged, I went to the Mayo Clinic, end all, be all, and went in there and I had an LP problem, which is off topic here, but when they told me, well, we don't have enough information on that and it would be bad practice to give you this medication, and I sat there and I looked at my wife and my mom and kinda gave them that look and was like, you know, like, really?
因为我这里积累了大量的信息，我一直在研究。
Because I have mounds of information here I've been studying.
是的。
Yeah.
这让我很灰心，所以我特别喜欢专家、功能医学医生，还有我们统称为替代医学的理念。
And that was disheartening to me, and that's why I love specialists so much that and functional doctors and alternative we'll just call it alternative medicine and ideas.
当人们对此感到愤怒、完全排斥时，我会说：嘿，老兄。
And when people get so angry and so turned off by it, like, hey, man.
你做你自己就好。
You do you.
你知道的。
You know?
没人强迫任何人做任何事。
Like, nobody's forcing anybody to do anything.
我们只是提供我认为——我相信你也这么认为——能改变人生的资讯。
We're just providing what I feel, and I'm sure you do, is life changing information.
当然。
Absolutely.
而且，你知道，医疗领域——我们可以暂时跳出肠道微生物组的范畴。
And, you know, the medical field and we can we're stepping into outside of gut microbiome territory here.
但每一位医生都曾宣过誓。
But the medical field, you know, each of those doctors has taken an oath.
他们真的在努力促进我们的健康，尽他们所能帮助我们所有人。
They really are trying to benefit our health, and they're really trying to help all of us in the best way that they can.
但他们所学的一切，都是制药公司研发出来的干预手段。
But all they have been taught are things that have been interventions that have been created and developed by pharmaceutical companies.
而在美国，这种情况尤其严重。
And and here in The United States, it's particularly egregious.
因此，制药公司制造药物。
And so, pharmaceutical companies make drugs.
只有这些才是FDA会批准的。
Those are the only things the FDA will approve.
如果你看到‘FDA批准’，那就意味着它是一种药物。
If you see FDA approved, that means it's a drug.
否则，FDA不会批准补充剂之类的产品。
Otherwise, the FDA doesn't approve approve, you know, supplements and things like that.
因此，FDA批准了由制药公司开发的药物，这些药物随后由保险公司承保，而这些正是医生在医学院学习时接触到的产品。
And so the FDA approves drugs that are developed by pharmaceutical companies that are then covered by insurance companies, and those are the products that doctors learn about when they're in medical school.
是的。
Yeah.
那么他们花多少时间学习营养学呢？
So how much time do they spend even learning about nutrition?
他们花多少时间学习补充剂呢？
How much time do they spend learning about supplements?
他们花多少时间学习肠道微生物组呢？
How much time do they spend learning about the gut microbiome?
他们花多少时间学习任何天然产品呢？
How much time do they spend learning about any natural products?
因此，他们不了解这一点，其实是整个体系的结果。
And so the fact that they don't know it is is a kind of a consequence of the system.
但这并不是借口。
It's not an excuse.
我希望随着我们获得更多信息，他们都能够学到这些知识。
I hope they all learn it as as we start to get more information.
但当你去看全科医生时，你应该明白，他们所学的就只有这些。
But when you go to your general practitioner, you should know that's all they learned.
是的。
Yeah.
我知道，因为我跟几位上过医学院的朋友聊过，我还有一个非常要好的朋友做医药销售。
I I know because I've talked to several friends that have gone through medical school, and I also have a close friend that does pharmaceutical sales, like a very close friend.
所以我了解所有这些人们常常因此生气的事情，他们总说‘这只是说说而已’，但其实不是这样的。
So I know all of this stuff that people like to get angry about that say, they're just saying that, no, no, no, no.
我们知道是因为我们认识这些人，正如你所说，制药销售人员会去诊所，发表长篇大论——那部电影叫什么来着？
We know because we know these people personally and to your point, pharmaceutical sales, they go into clinics and they give their long speech just what's the movie?
《认识混蛋们》？
Meet the Fuckers?
就像他们看了其中一部之后。
Like when they just watch one of those.
那就是真实的情况。
That's actual reality.
事情就是这么发生的。
That's what happens.
他们进去后，发表演讲，试图向诊所推销他们的产品；另外，我要提一下，你不必回答，但我知道这些信息，因为我有一位在制药销售行业的亲密朋友，他实际上参与了这些药物的研发。
They go in there, give their speech, try to sell their stuff to whatever the clinic is, and also, and I will bring this up and you can don't have to answer this, but this I know I'm privy to this information because I have a close friend in drug sales that actually develops them.
他提到过，因为我会问：为什么他们不开某些药？
And he's talked about if they because I say, why don't they prescribe certain medications?
为什么医生不开这些药？
Why don't doctors prescribe these?
为什么获取Repatha这么难？我得费这么大劲才能拿到。
Why is it so hard to get Repatha, like that I had to go way out of my way to get?
因为如果他们开这些处方太频繁，保险公司就会把他们踢出名单，然后呢？
Because if they start writing these scripts too often, the insurance places will drop their ass from the and then what happens?
是的。
Yep.
他们就完了。
They're done.
是的。
Yep.
他们就倒闭了。
They're out of business.
如果他们一直开他汀类药物处方，抱歉，他汀爱好者们，这没问题。
Now if they write statin prescriptions all the time, and sorry, statin lovers, that's okay.
这才是被鼓励的做法。
That's what's encouraged.
所以他们陷入了困境。
So they're kind of in a jam.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，保险公司深度介入了制药行业，决定了哪些药物会被推荐、谁能够获得覆盖，甚至包括医院的医保覆盖，最终导致了利益冲突或严重的激励错位，而作为患者或消费者，我们最终成了受害者。
I mean, because insurance companies are so heavily involved in pharmaceuticals and what get recommended and who gets covered and even hospitals, you know, getting their coverage, it ends up being sort of a conflict of interest or a gross misincentivization that, you know, we as the patient or the consumer of that stuff end up being on the short end of the stick.
是的。
Yeah.
说得客气点。
To put it nicely.
那么，我对血液检查的简单化感到困惑，你对此怎么看？
Well, and how do you I'm curious how you feel about the lack of intricacy when it comes to blood panels.
因为我一直很困惑，为什么我们不进行心脏健康全套检测？
Because I've always been so bothered of why aren't we taking cardiac IQ panels?
为什么我们不去检测重金属、寄生虫以及其他我们确知会严重危害生命的因素？
Why aren't we looking for heavy metals and parasites and other things that we know for sure can absolutely destroy lives?
嗯，我觉得你知道为什么没有更多的检测项目。
Well, I think you know why there's not more tests.
谁来付这笔钱呢？
Who's gonna pay for that?
这确实是真的。
That's true.
但你不觉得这纯粹是一种极度缺乏关怀的表现吗？
But don't you think that's a, like, a just gross lack of care?
首先我认为确实是这样，但我同时也抱有希望，因为现在涌现出许多新的诊所，它们专注于整合各种类型的检测和不同的医疗方式。
I think it is, first of all, but I also feel hope because there are a lot of new clinics that are coming out that really have a focus on integrating all the different types of tests, and then integrating all the different kinds of care.
我认为，如果这些诊所成功了，我们就会看到它们被整合进更大的医院系统，而且我相信它们会成功的。
And I think we'll start to see those if they are successful, and I I think they will be, then we'll start to see that integrated into larger hospital systems.
但像梅奥诊所这样的大型医院系统——我非常欣赏他们——他们也是我们的投资者，并且在那里进行着前沿的研究。
But the large hospital systems like Mayo Clinic, who I love, they are investors in us, and they they really are doing cutting edge research there.
但他们将是最后采纳新方案的人。
But they're gonna be the last adopters of new protocols.
所以我们所有人，都得从这些最前沿的地方开始，然后慢慢渗透到大型诊所。
So we kind of, you know, for all of us, we have to start with the more cutting edge places, and then it's gonna trickle down to the large clinic.
当然。
Of course.
是的。
Yeah.
就像那个固守旧法的老教练，从不更新，最终因为不再有效而被解雇。
And it's like the old coach that is stuck in his ways that never looks and then gets fired because it doesn't work anymore.
没错。
Right.
科学是什么？
What's science?
我的意思是，你是个非常出色的科学人才。
I mean, you're you're a brilliant science person.
科学是什么？
What's science?
科学难道不是我们提出问题、寻找新方法，审视那些我们可能曾经错误的认知，并试图找到更好的方式吗？还是我疯了？
Isn't science us asking questions, looking for new ways and things that could we may have been wrong about and trying to see if there's a better way, or am I crazy?
是的。
Yeah.
不是。
No.
当然。
Absolutely.
我认为，有趣的一点是我们一直谈论个性化医疗和每个人的个体差异，但至今尚未真正实现任何有意义的进展。
And I think, you know, one of the interesting things is we've talked a lot about personalized medicine and your own individual, but it hasn't really come to fruition in any sort of meaningful way.
肠道微生物组最神奇的一点在于，它几乎像是每个人独一无二的指纹。
And one of the amazing things about the gut microbiome is it is almost a fingerprint of every person's.
当人们刚开始研究微生物组时，他们感到困惑：为什么所有人都拥有基本相同的菌株，却又略有不同？
When people started researching the microbiome, they're like, why do all these why does everyone have basically the same strain but slightly different?
这背后的目的是什么？
Like, what is the purpose of this?
我们现在发现，你和我可能拥有相同功能的微生物组，但你的微生物组指纹却与我的截然不同。
And we're now discovering that you may have the same functions in your microbiome that I do, but you have almost a a fingerprint of your microbiome that's different from mine.
因此，思考我们是谁、我们生来如何、我们如何演化，以及我们所做的所有选择如何体现在肠道中，实际上非常有趣。
And so it's actually really interesting to think about how who we are, who we were born as, how we've evolved, all the choices we've made kinda show up in your gut.
真的吗？
Really?
所以，我现在要问你一个问题。
So here, I'm gonna ask you.
这听起来可能对你来说很疯狂，甚至有点愚蠢，但这很重要。
This is gonna sound crazy to you and maybe a little stupid, but this is important.
你能因为我们都一直在说微生物组吗？
Can you because we say microbiome all the time.
你知道有多少人根本不知道这个词是什么意思吗？
You know how many people don't know what that means?
你能简单地解释一下吗？
Can you just give a simple just explanation?
什么是微生物组？
What is microbiome?
是的。
Yeah.
微生物组这个词来源于微生物。
So microbiome is comes from the word microbes.
所以，回想一下七年级的生物课，它指的是所有那些微小的细菌、病毒和真菌。
So if you think back to seventh grade biology class, it's all the little bacteria and viruses and fungi.
它们实际上生活在我们体表和体内。
They actually live on us and in us.
我们的肠道、鼻腔、皮肤上都有大量的微生物。
And there's a ton of them in our guts, in our nasal passages, on our skin, everywhere.
我们与它们共同进化，它们在我们的健康中扮演着至关重要的角色。
And we've coevolved with them, and they play a massive role in our health.
我们总是试图通过抗生素、消毒湿巾、抗菌肥皂来杀死它们，但事实上，它们大多数对我们极其有益。
We are constantly trying to kill them through antibiotics, antiseptic wipes, antibacterial soaps, but they're actually mostly incredibly beneficial for us.
因此，举例来说，我们每个人都应该身上带着一层微生物，这些微生物构成了我们的免疫系统与环境中各种刺激物之间的屏障。
And so, for example, we are all supposed to be walking around with a layer of microbes on our skin, and those microbes are a barrier between our immune system and all of the kind of triggers in the environment around us.
比如花粉、草屑和灰尘。
So think like pollen and grass and dust.
所以我们进化出了这些微生物。
And so we've evolved these microbes.
它们本该存在于我们的皮肤上，这样当我们的身体接触到灰尘时，微生物就会分解它。
They're supposed to be on our skin so that when our body encounters dust, for example, the microbes are metabolizing it.
它们在某种程度上为我们充当了屏障。
They're kind of a barrier for us.
但大多数人每天只洗一次澡。
But most of us are showering once a day.
有些人甚至一天洗两次。
Some people, twice a day.
大多数人还有护肤习惯，会经常彻底清洁皮肤。
Most people have skincare routines that involve clearing off your skin on a, you know, very regular basis.
我们是一个注重卫生的社会，所以这就是我们所做的。
We're a hygienic society, and so that's what we do.
实际上，每次你这样做时，你都在把那些微生物从身上洗掉。
And effectively, what you're doing is every time you do that, you're stripping those microbes off of you.
然后我们就会奇怪，为什么大家都过敏了呢？
And then we wonder, gee, how come everyone's, like, getting allergies?
为什么我年纪越大，对越多东西过敏？
How come as I get older, I'm allergic to more things?
你不断地让免疫系统接触它本不该接触的东西。
You're constantly barraging your immune system with things it's never supposed to be seeing.
我明白了。
I see.
哇。
Wow.
好的。
Okay.
嗯，说实话，这对我来说是全新的。
Well, see, I didn't that's brand new to me.
我只是觉得护肤就是
I'm like skincare just
即使人们知道这一点，也很难让他们改变护肤习惯，但这只是‘知道’而已。
It's impossible to get someone to change their skincare routine even when they know that, but it's just sort of knowing it.
这确实会让你三思，尤其是从新冠热潮中走出来之后。
It makes it does make you think twice, especially, you know, coming out of the COVID craze.
这确实会让你思考，我真的需要在房子的每个房间都放抗菌凝胶吗？
It does make you think twice about, do I really have to have antibacterial gels in every room of my house?
我的意思是，我们根本不需要。
I mean, we really don't.
不需要。
No.
我完全同意。
I would agree thoroughly.
好的。
Okay.
所以现在明白了这一点，我会把这个类比到脂肪上，比如认为脂肪会让人发胖。
So now understanding that, and and I I'll relate this to fats, like, thinking fats make you fat.
所以我们觉得没错。
So we think that Right.
细菌就是坏的。
Bacteria is just bad.
我的意思是，这种假设很容易成立。
I mean, it's easy to assume.
对吧？
Right?
那么它到底有多好呢？
So how good is it?
尤其是对我们肠道来说。
Like, especially for our gut.
我的意思是，它有多重要、多好呢？
I mean, how important and good is it?
它极其重要。
It's it's incredibly important.
确实有一些细菌是坏的。
And and some bacteria are definitely bad.
没错。
So Sure.
那是对的。
That that's true.
但有趣的是，很多那些有害细菌，比如大肠杆菌。
But, you know, interestingly, a lot of those bad bacteria so E.
大肠杆菌是很多人知道的，如果我问你，你对大肠杆菌有什么看法？
Coli is something a lot of people know, and we you would ask if I asked you, what do think about E.
大肠杆菌？
Coli?
有益的细菌还是有害的细菌？
Good bacteria or bad bacteria?
对。
Yeah.
你会觉得：有害的。
You'd be like, bad.
有害的。
Bad.
但事实上，我们每个人体内都携带着一些大肠杆菌。
But the fact is we all walk around with, like, some E.
而它并没有造成任何危害。
Coli in us, and it's not doing anything bad.
它是生态系统的一部分。
It's part of an ecosystem.
它被控制在安全范围内。
It's being held held at bay.
它实际上会产生对我们重要的小分子。
It actually produces small molecules that are important for us.
因此，当它存在于生态系统和社会中时，其实是无害的。
And so when it is in the ecosystem and it's in society, it is actually fine.
只有当你把它从社会中分离出来，让它自由泛滥时，才会引发问题。
It's when you kind of take it out of society and you let it go wild and free that that's when it causes problems.
所以我们都应该把我们的微生物组看作一个包含有益和有害成员的生态系统。
And so we should all be thinking about our microbiome microbiome as an ecosystem that has both these good and these bad players.
但当你特别考虑肠道微生物组时，它就像一个庞大的制造工厂，拥有多个部门，正在完成各种工作，将你摄入的所有食物转化为对你至关重要的多种物质。
But when you think about your gut microbiome in particular, it's like this massive manufacturing plant, this factory that has all these different departments that are doing all this work and converting everything that you eat into all these different things that are important for you.
其中一些物质会刺激你的GLP-1。
Some of those things are it stimulates your GLP one.
它会刺激免疫系统。
It stimulates immune, system.
当你需要时，它会刺激你的炎症系统。
It stimulates your inflammatory system when you need it.
所以你有这么多不同的部门，每个部门都承担着非常特定的工作。
And so you have all these different departments that are doing very specific jobs.
因此，如果你某个部门人员不足，就会从那里开始出现健康问题。
And so if you are under staffed in a department, you will start to have health issues coming coming out of that.
所以我认为，理解这个生态系统到底是什么，真的非常重要。
And so that's really, I think, the importance of understanding, what is that ecosystem?
我哪个部门人员不足？
Who am I understaffed in?
我该如何开始，嗯，重新充实这个团队呢？
And how do I start to, you know, buff that team back up?
好的。
Okay.
那我们现在就深入探讨一下这个话题。
So let's I wanna really get into this now.
我想聊聊所有与微生物组相关的内容，先从你谈谈哪些是导致问题的主要因素开始。
I wanna talk everything microbiome related and I wanna start with you kind of getting into what are some of the biggest culprits that cause a problem.
有哪些食物、日常习惯是我们会做的呢？
What are some of the foods, daily habits, things that we do?
我猜炎症是因为它涉及方方面面，但如果你能详细说明一下就好了。
I'm assuming inflammation is because it's everything, but, I mean, expound upon that if you would.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为我们对自己做的两件大事对我们的微生物组非常不利。
So I think there's there's two big things that we do to ourselves that are that are not great for our microbiome.
第一，每当你服用抗生素时，它就像对你的微生物组投下了一颗核弹。
The first is anytime you take an antibiotic, it's like a nuclear bomb to your microbiome.
它会杀死所有东西。
It kills everything.
所以如果你有感染，你应该服用抗生素。
So if you have an infection, you should take an antibiotic.
但不要随便去问医生要抗生素，除非他明确告诉你有细菌感染，而且你需要开这种药。
But don't go ask your doctor for an antibiotic unless you've he said you have a bacterial infection and you and you need to be prescribed that.
我们很多人得了病毒感染，却想要吃你的Z包抗生素。
A lot of us get viral infections, we want, you know, our Z Pak.
所以当你服用抗生素时，你完全摧毁了你的微生物组。
And so when you take antibiotics, you are completely decimating your microbiome.
当你的微生物组恢复时，通常已经不再是当初的那个微生物组了。
And when your microbiome recovered, it's oftentimes not the same microbiome you started with.
有趣的是，农民们几十年来早就知道这一点。
And so what is interesting is farmers have known this for decades.
他们一直给牛喂抗生素，并不是因为牛有感染，也不是担心它们的肠道微生物组，而是他们发现，如果给牛大量使用抗生素，它们就会增重。
They've been feeding their cattle antibiotics, not because they had some kind of infection or because they were worried about their gut microbiome or anything like that, but they observed that if you give your cows lots of antibiotics, they gain weight.
它们变得更容易肥胖。
They become more obese.
嗯。
Mhmm.
所以这基本上是一种廉价地让牛更肥胖的方法。
And so that is basically a cheap way to create more obese cows.
如果你是个农民，这可是个好消息。
And if you're a farmer, that's great news.
但这不仅适用于牛。
Well, it's not just true in cows.
在人类身上也是如此。
It's also true in people.
研究表明，儿童如果在成长过程中大量使用抗生素，日后更容易患上肥胖和糖尿病。
And so studies have shown in children who take a lot of antibiotics later on in life, they're more prone to obesity and diabetes.
因此，请意识到当你服用抗生素时，你正在彻底改变你的微生物组，而且你可能无法恢复到最初的状态。
So just be aware that when you take antibiotics, you are completely altering your microbiome, and you might not get back what you started with initially.
我们做的第二件大事是吃某些食物。
The second really big thing that we do is eat certain foods.
当你思考你的微生物组时，它没有其他获取营养的途径，只能依赖你。
And so when you think about your microbiome, it doesn't have a way to get any nutrients except you.
你完全决定了它吃什么。
You're completely in charge of what it eats.
所以你吃的东西就是你在喂养它。
And so what you eat is what you're feeding it.
所以所有显而易见的东西都是这样。
And so all the obvious stuff.
比如，你应该多吃富含纤维、多酚、水果、蔬菜、豆类这些好东西，但加工食品可能会对微生物组造成损害。
Like, you wanna be having a diet that's high in, you know, fibers and polyphenols and all your fruits and veggies and all that good stuff and lentils and and but, you know, processed foods can be detrimental for the microbiome.
我们知道，实际上当你去超市时，中间区域的食物对你的微生物组并不好。
We know that I mean, effectively, when you go to the grocery store, the middle part is not great for your microbiome.
外围区域的食物才是有益的。
The outer part is good.
因此，当我们谈到微生物组时，这两点是我们能够部分掌控的。
And so those are the two things that we have some level of control over when it comes to microbiome.
但还有其他因素会导致你的微生物组减少。
But there are other things that can cause your microbiome to become depleted.
我们常说某个部门人手不足。
So we talk about understaffed in a department.
这种耗竭是有问题的。
That depletion is problematic.
当我们随着年龄增长，我们的肠道菌群会自然耗竭。
And that can happen when we literally, as we age, our microbiome becomes depleted.
当我们经历强烈压力时，我们的肠道菌群会耗竭。
When we go through periods of intense stress, our microbiome becomes depleted.
当我们旅行、昼夜节律被打乱，白天变黑夜、黑夜变白天时，我们的肠道菌群会耗竭。
When we travel and our circadian rhythm changes, day becomes night, night becomes day, our microbiome becomes depleted.
当我们经历荷尔蒙变化时，比如青春期，或者女性更年期，我们的肠道菌群会耗竭。
And when we have hormonal changes, so when we go through puberty or when we women go through menopause, our microbiome becomes depleted.
这些都只是作为人类、生活和生存过程中不可避免的一部分，会导致菌群耗竭。
So those are things that are just part of being a human and and life and living that cause you to become depleted.
所以，这些原因可能是你自身行为造成的，但也可能是完全超出你控制范围的因素。
And so it may be things you've done, but it may be things that are completely outside of your control.
但无论如何，好消息是，你可以改变你的肠道菌群。
But either way, the good news is that you can change your microbiome.
所以你消耗了它们，造成了混乱，做了所有这些不良的实践和行为——你刚才提到的那些事情——但即使如此，如果你停止这些行为并加以纠正，它仍然是可以修复的，还是说会永远带来问题？
So you deplete them, you cause havoc, you do all of these bad practices, behaviors, all of the things that you talked about, it's still something that if you stop, correct it, it is fixable, or is it something that is gonna be problematic forever?
你可以修复它。
You can fix it.
这就像一个终极救赎的故事。
There it's like the ultimate redemption story.
你可以修复它。
You can fix it.
所以，不管你过去做了什么，你的肠道菌群都是可以修复的。
So, you know, whatever you've done in the past is that, but you can fix your microbiome.
你可以从今天开始决定：我要专注于这件事，我要想办法让我的肠道菌群具备我想要的所有多样性功能，你真的可以改变自己的未来健康。
You could today decide, I'm gonna focus on that, and I am gonna work on figuring out how do I get my microbiome to have all the diverse functions I want, and you can literally change your future health.
好的。
Okay.
接下来我要这么做。
Here's what I'm gonna do.
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我快速问你几个问题，你只需要回答是或不是，最好解释一下为什么这些事不影响肠道菌群，因为刚才突然想到。
I'm gonna rapid fire you a couple things, and you're gonna tell me yes or no, and maybe get into why or why not they don't affect the microbiome, because it's just popped into my head
天啊。
right Oh, man.
好的。
Okay.
不。
No.
这也太简单了。
That's so simple.
我就是这么做事的，明白吗？
This is just how I roll, okay?
因为我知道你马上就知道答案。
So, because I know you know right away.
所以，酒精。
So, alcohol.
天啊，我从不阅读关于酒精如何影响肠道菌群的研究。
Man, I don't read any studies on what alcohol does to your microbiome.
我觉得这对菌群没什么好处。
I don't think it's good for it.
我只是觉得酒精可能造成巨大伤害，所以我心想，嗯，它肯定和肠道菌群有关。
I just, I think that alcohol can do so much damage, and that's why I thought, man, I bet it relates to microbiome.
它确实有影响。
It it does.
那吸烟呢？
What about smoking?
有趣的是，说实话，我也没读过太多这方面的研究。首先，有很多相关性研究显示，吸烟者，尤其是肺部菌群，和不吸烟者看起来很不一样。
Interestingly, you know, I don't know that I've read too many so first of all, there are a ton of correlative studies out there where, gee, people who smoke a lot have a different looking, especially, you know, in the lung microbiome than than people who don't.
但这和‘吸烟导致你的菌群发生变化’是两回事，这需要在两者之间建立某种功能性的联系。
But I don't that's different from saying that your smoking is what led you to have a different microbiome, and that requires you to have some functional link between the two things.
所以吸烟是个很有趣的话题。
So smoking is an interesting one.
我不太清楚有没有关于吸烟对肠道微生物组影响的研究，但肺部微生物组确实有相关研究。
I don't know that I've seen anything about smoking in the gut microbiome, but certainly the lung microbiome.
那过度训练呢？
What about overtraining?
运动呢？
Exercise.
多做运动。
Do much exercise.
当然有影响。
Definitely.
这确实会，因为你的微生物组也参与产生一些有助于肌肉修复的小分子，所以它确实会对微生物组产生影响。
That will because your your microbiome is also involved in helping, you know, creating small molecules that help rebuild your muscle, and so, certainly, that does have an impact on the microbiome.
那睡眠不好呢？
What about bad sleep?
睡眠不足、作息不规律，就像你之前提到的昼夜节律问题？
Lack of sleep, uneven sleep patterns, like like you mentioned about circadian rhythm?
是的
Yeah.
这两者确实密切相关。
The two are definitely tied to each other.
所以当你睡眠不好时，会影响你的肠道菌群，而你的肠道菌群也会影响你的睡眠。
So when you get bad sleep, that impacts your microbiome, but your microbiome can also impact your sleep.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
所以这两者 definitely 是串通一气的。
So they those two are definitely in cahoots.
好的。
Okay.
所以肠道菌群失调会导致你的睡眠模式紊乱。
So microbiome being off is gonna throw your sleep patterns off.
是的
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
如果我们想深入探讨的话，我们可以更详细地讲，但其中一个重要方面是身体如何代谢糖分。
And we can we can get more deeply into it if you want to, but one of the big things is about how your body metabolizes sugars.
所以，如果你在本该睡觉的时候，经历了很多——我不想称之为功能失调——但你确实经历了血糖飙升和骤降的情况。
And so if you are experiencing a bunch of kind of I don't wanna call it dysfunctional, but you're you're experiencing, you know, glucose spikes and crashes when you're supposed to be sleeping.
血糖水平本该更稳定一些。
It's supposed to be a little bit more stable.
很多这种情况实际上是因为你的肠道菌群失衡，导致它在你睡觉时进行一些不该有的活动，从而引发问题。
A lot of that can actually be because your microbiome is sort of off kilter, and so it's creating performing activities and creating problems that you really shouldn't be having in sleep.
我本来想说糖分。
I was gonna say sugar.
是的。
Yeah.
我知道。
I know.
糖是另一个问题。
Sugar's sugar's another one.
这不太理想。
It's not great.
如果我告诉你，有一种分子能同时帮助清洁你的身体系统、支持免疫健康和细胞保护，你会怎么说？
What if I told you that one molecule will help keep your body's system cleansed, supported immune health, and cellular protection all at once?
我说的是谷胱甘肽，也就是身体的主抗氧化剂。
I'm talking about glutathione glutathione aka the body's master antioxidant.
它存在于几乎每一个细胞中，帮助保护DNA、蛋白质和细胞膜免受氧化应激，同时在肝脏解毒、线粒体能量产生和平衡中发挥重要作用。
It exists inside nearly every cell, helping to protect DNA, proteins, and cell membranes from oxidative stress, as well as playing a major role in liver cleansing, mitochondrial energy production, balance.
不幸的是，污染物、毒素和压力会迅速耗尽谷胱甘肽的水平。
Unfortunately, pollutions, toxins, and stress can rapidly deplete glutathione levels.
随着年龄增长，谷胱甘肽的生成也会减少。
And as we age, glutathione production decreases as well.
许多传统的谷胱甘肽补充剂吸收效果很差，因此很难有效提升谷胱甘肽真正发挥作用的细胞内水平。
And many traditional glutathione supplements do not absorb well, making it extremely difficult to raise intracellular levels where glutathione actually works.
这就是为什么我使用 Glutaril，这是由杰出的医生纳扬·帕特尔开发的多专利外用谷胱甘肽。
And that's why I use Glutaril, the multi patented topical glutathione developed by the amazing doctor Nayan Patel.
Glutaril 不依赖消化系统，而是通过皮肤吸收，为支持人体最重要的抗氧化系统提供了一种便捷、持续的方式。
Instead of relying on digestion, Glutaril absorbs through the skin, helping provide a convenient consistent way to support the body's most important antioxidant system.
所以，请使用描述中的链接并输入代码 DYLAN，今天可享受 15% 的折扣。
So use my link in the description and code DYLAN to save 15% off today.
太棒了。
Awesome.
好吧。
Alright.
嗯，我想我已经给你讲了足够多的随机内容了，但我认为我提到的这些事情，如果人们静下心来照镜子，都会发现这些问题确实普遍存在，而且确实应该被重视。
Well, I I I think I gave you the the randoms there enough, but I think that all of those things are I think if people sit down and look in the mirror, lot of those things I mentioned, they're problems, you know, that people do, and and I think it should be addressed.
关于大麻，你有什么看法吗？
Marijuana, anything on that at all?
我没见过相关的内容，但这并不意味着它不存在。
I don't think I've seen anything on That doesn't mean it's not out there.
我觉得我没见过关于这方面的内容。
I don't think I've seen anything on that.
我之所以问，是因为它越来越被广泛接受，使用也越来越普遍。
I only ask because it's gotten more prevalently accepted, more prevalently used.
我不会讨论街头毒品，这一点应该很明显。
I'm not gonna get into street drugs, think that's pretty obvious.
只是几种经常使用的药物。
Just a couple medications that are used quite often.
其中之一是布洛芬或类似药物，因为这是一个问题。
One would be ibuprofen or sed type because that is a problem.
这些药物的使用量远超人们的认知，有时甚至超出了他们自己的意识到的程度。
Those are used way more than people, I think, sometimes even realize they're using.
那你怎么看这个？
So what about that?
因为我知道肝脏、肾脏，非常糟糕，非常糟糕。
Because I know liver, kidneys, bad, bad, bad.
那微生物组呢？
But what about microbiome?
我认为没有看到什么证据表明布洛芬会对微生物组造成显著的负面影响。
I don't think I've seen anything to really show a large detrimental impact from on ibuprofen.
但呃。
But k.
我得先说明一下，我们对这个身体部位的了解还处于非常早期的阶段。
I'll just say this with the caveat that, you know, we are still in the very early phases of learning about this body part.
所以，正因为还没有被研究，并不意味着它将来不会被研究。
And so because it hasn't been studied yet doesn't mean that it's not going to be.
而且，仅仅因为我还不知道，并不意味着它不存在
And just because I don't know it doesn't mean it's not
在某个地方。
out there.
对。
Right.
那关于补充剂呢？比如粉状物，像蛋白粉、肌酸之类的，有没有哪种东西摄入过多会产生负面影响，会让人惊讶地损害肠道菌群？除了维生素过量带来的毒性之外？
And what about are there any supplements or, you know, powders or anything like that, protein powders, creatine, anything that too much of or anything that would be shocking that has a actually a negative effect on microbiome that you could point out aside from toxicity from too much vitamins or something like that?
我的意思是，一般来说。
I mean, just generally.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为，通过大量摄入来改变你的肠道菌群生态系统其实相当困难。
I think it's actually relatively difficult to change the ecosystem of your microbiome by kinda like overdosing.
是的。
Yeah.
因为首先，如果你服用的是天然益生菌，而人体本身就有天然的机制来调节和控制菌群水平。
Because, you know, there's a lot of because first of all, if you're taking natural probiotics and so because your body has natural systems for curbing and and controlling the levels.
但话说回来，市面上所有的补充剂都必须经过经典的毒性研究。
So but that being said, you know, all the supplements that are out there have had to gone go through toxicity studies, your classic tox studies.
但我还没见过任何因过量服用而对肠道菌群造成持久性影响的案例。
But I don't know that I've seen a case of a overdose situation that impacted the microbiome in a sustainable way.
有没有哪些食物会让人惊讶，它们其实对肠道菌群有害，但我们却以为它们对健康有益？
And are there any foods that would surprise somebody that are bad for the microbiome that we just assume are like good for you foods?
我知道那些加工食品之类的，但有没有什么特别让人震惊的，或者你了解的？
I think, you know, we know the process and all of that crap, but is there anything that would shock somebody or that you know of?
还是说，其实都是我们已经知道的那些常见东西？
Or is it more or less the common stuff that we already know?
我觉得可能让人惊讶的是香料，就是整个香料区。
Well, I think one of the things that might be surprising is that spices, so all those the whole spice section.
如果你喜欢辣味食物，喜欢尝试各种香料，这其实对你的肠道菌群非常有益。
If you like spicy food and you like playing around spices, that's actually really great for your microbiome.
明白了。
Okay.
所以你可能会觉得，咦，我吃辣的时候胃其实挺不舒服的。
So that might be a little bit you might feel like, oh, but when I eat spicy food, that really, like, upsets my stomach.
但事实上，这些不同的香料对你都是有好处的。
But actually, all those different spices are are good for you.
好的。
Okay.
行吧。
Alright.
你看，我不太能吃辣，但我最近一直在尝试加入一些辣味调料，确实能感受到身体状态的变化。
See, I I'm not as, like, I can't do spicy and I've really been trying to do a few and like implement them and I I can see differences in how I feel.
就是这样。
It's is.
关键是适度，适度。
I just moderation, moderation.
好的。
Okay.
那有哪些东西对肠道菌群有益呢？
So how about some things that will benefit the microbiome?
我光顾着看那些负面的东西了。
I'm looking at all the negative.
我们来漱口吧。
Let's swish it.
让我们在这里保持积极的态度。
Let's be positive people here.
有哪些不太明显但你可能会推荐的事项呢？除了我们待会儿要聊的益生菌、后生元之类的东西之外？
What are some things that maybe aren't so obvious and maybe are that you would recommend aside from when we'll get into, like, probiotic, postbiotic type of stuff?
但我现在更关注的是食物和天然的方法，人们可以在服用补充剂之外额外做的。
But I'm I'm looking more food and natural stuff right now that people can do on top of supplementing.
是的。
Yeah.
首先，你并不一定非得服用补充剂。
Well, first of all, you don't necessarily have to supplement.
许多研究显示，仅通过饮食，如果你体内某些微生物不足，或者只是数量不够，单靠营养摄入就能显著提升它们的数量。
A lot of studies have shown that through food alone, if you're low or, you know, just don't have enough of certain microbes, food alone, nutrition alone can really ramp them up.
所以，我不认为任何人应该把补充剂作为首选解决方案。
So I don't know that anyone should jump to supplements as your first solution.
我会说，让我们从食物开始。
I would say, let's start with food.
总是如此。
Always.
因此，你的蔬果区是最好的起点。
And so your your produce section is your best starting point there.
所有水果和蔬菜，那些富含纤维的食物，还有那些含有天然糖分但与纤维混合的水果。
So all of your fruits and veggies, things that are high in fiber, those fruits that have natural sugars, but they're mixed with fibers.
对吧？
Right?
所以不是喝果汁，而是真正地吃水果。
So not the juice, but but, like, actually eating the fruits.
这些对你来说都非常非常好。
Those are all really, really fantastic for you.
整个这一类食物，每个人都在吃，都非常棒。
That whole section is every everybody's in there is great.
这些都非常好。
So those are wonderful.
然后你可以看看豆类区，比如扁豆、黑豆，这些对你都非常好。
Then if you kinda go over into your bean section, so lentils, black beans, all of those are really great for you.
它们富含纤维。
They're high in fiber.
如果你喜欢豆类，那太棒了。
So if you if you love beans, that's awesome.
这些对你很有益。
Those are great for you.
还有绿茶。
And then green tea.
绿茶非常好，是多酚的良好来源。
Green tea is really great for it's a a good source of polyphenols.
还有所有的香料。
And then all your spices.
这些都很棒，如果你能多在蔬果区和豆类区逛逛，再喝点茶、加点香料，那就完美了。
These are all really you know, if you can have if you can hang out in your produce section and your beans section and then have some tea and spices added in there, you're great.
在很多方面，你几乎可以通过饮食 alone 来改善任何肠道问题。
And in a lot of ways, you can cure any gut issues almost through diet alone.
但问题是，要一直、全天候、每天都长期保持良好的饮食实在太难了。
Now the caveat is that it's really hard to have a good diet all the time, all day long, every day, forever.
因此，有些因素会促使你的肠道菌群变得贫瘠。
And so there are things that are gonna push your microbiome towards being depleted.
所以补充剂是一种简便的方式，嘿。
So supplements are an easy kind of, hey.
让我来补充一下这个东西吧，因为我实在很难在饮食中摄入足够多的量。
Let me let me supplement this thing because, like, I can't get I'm not really gonna get that into my diet at the levels I need to.
另外，我们之前提到的那些因素——压力、荷尔蒙变化、旅行等等，也会对你的肠道菌群产生影响。
The other thing is that all those other things that we talked about, you know, stress, hormonal changes, travel, I mean, those can also push your microbiome in one direction.
所以，虽然你很可能主要通过食物来实现这一点，嗯。
So while you can do it likely through food as the major way Mhmm.
补充剂可以帮助你应对这双重打击。
Supplementation can just help you with that one two punch.
当然。
Absolutely.
对。
Yeah.
我特别强调的一点是，尤其是因为我来自一个训练过很多健美运动员的背景，他们都只想找到最快的答案和解决方案，但每一件事都应以食物为先。
One of the things that I really, really drive home, and especially because I come from this background of training so many bodybuilders that just want the quickest answer and fix and everything, it's every single thing should start with food first.
是的。
Yeah.
‘补充剂’这个词，顾名思义，就是用来补充你已有的摄入。
The term supplement, just say it, It means to supplement what you're using.
没错。
Right.
不要依赖或指望。
Don't depend or rely on.
没错。
Exactly.
对吧？
Right?
我的意思是，它是一种工具，但现在每个人在做任何事时都过度使用了。
I mean, it's there as a tool, but there's so much abuse in everything everybody does anymore, especially.
总是觉得越多越好，而且我们想要立刻、立刻、立刻得到，但这并不现实。
More is always better, and we want this right now, right now, right now, and it's just not reality.
我知道。
I know.
不幸的是，得慢慢来。
Unfortunately, gotta work at it.
是的。
Yeah.
当然。
Of course.
所以现在我要说，每条规则都有其破坏者，因此总会存在例外。
And so now I'll say for every rule there is a rule breaker, so there's an exception.
有一种菌株实际上从未在任何食物或饮料中被发现过，而全球的研究人员一直在寻找它。
So there is one strain that has actually not been found in any foods or beverages, and and people have been looking for it around the world.
它被称为阿克罗曼西娅黏蛋白降解菌。
It's called acromancya mucinophila.
这种菌株只在一种食物来源中被发现过，那就是母亲的母乳。
And this strain has only been found in in one food source, and that is mother's breast milk.
因此，人们认为你的母亲将它传给你，而你一生都在努力不失去它。
And so the idea is that your mom gives it to you, and then you spend the rest of your life trying not to lose it.
在这种情况下，如果你体内这种菌株含量低或完全缺失，补充可能是你首要的选择。
And so in that case, if you're low or completely missing achromanxia, supplementation might be the primary way you wanna go.
好的。
Okay.
这说得通。
Well, that makes sense.
那你可就麻烦了。
You're kinda screwed there.
你在商店里找不到这个东西。
You're not finding that in the store.
好的。
Okay.
不。
No.
这太好了。
That's great.
那好吧。
So alright.
所以我们已经讨论了共同点、哪些有帮助、哪些没有帮助。
So we've addressed commonalities, what helps, what doesn't help.
所以接下来我想聊聊让我自己也经常感到困惑的事情，说实话，那就是：我们到底该吃什么算是益生菌、后生元、益生元？
And so what I would like to do then is kinda get into what I find to be extremely confusing, even for myself sometimes, honestly, and that is what do we take for a probiotic, postbiotic, prebiotic?
这三者之间的区别是什么？我们需要全部三种吗？
What what is the differentiating factor between the three, and do we need all three?
很好。
Great.
我们先从基础讲起。
We'll do the the one zero one here.
好的，请讲。
Yes, please.
益生菌就是我们之前提到的细菌、病毒和真菌。
So probiotics, that's the bacteria and the viruses and fungi that we've talking about.
那就是活的生物体。
That's the living organism.
益生菌就是活的生物体。
The probiotic is the living organism.
益生元是这些微生物所摄取的食物。
The prebiotic is the food that those organisms eat.
而后生元是它们产生的物质。
And the postbiotic is the stuff that they produce.
所以你可以想象一下，比如你是一个生物，你吃的食物，以及你产生的东西。
So if you think about, like, you know, you're an organism, the food you eat, and then the stuff you make.
所以细菌是一样的。
So the bacteria are the same.
它们是益生菌，它们的食物是益生元，它们产生的物质是后生元。
So they're the probiotics, their food is the prebiotics, and the stuff they make is the postbiotics.
是的。
Yeah.
唉，真糟。
Well, shit.
这容易吗？
Is that easy?
这个原理很简单。
The principle is easy.
那你能对此做些什么呢？
Now what do you do about it?
这才是困难的部分。
That's the hard part.
是的。
Yes.
请谈谈我们需要什么、应该摄取什么，以及为什么。
Please discuss what we need, what we should be taking, and why.
我认为，像我们之前讨论过的那些纤维类食物，就是益生元。
Well, I think, you know, prebiotics, this is the foods we've been talking about, these fibers and things like that.
这些对你真的非常好。
You know, those are really great for you.
所以首先，你每天应该摄入的纤维量其实很多。
And so you can do so first of all, the amount of fiber you're supposed to eat in a day is a lot.
如果你真的尝试过吃下那么多纤维，我想只有大约5%的美国人达到了推荐的纤维摄入量。
And if you've ever tried to actually eat that amount, I think only 5% of us Americans are eating the amount of fiber we're supposed to eat.
要弄清楚如何摄入这么多纤维其实挺费劲的。
It's actually work to figure out how to get all those fibers.
而且你还得摄入多种纤维，这就像是全职务农一样，得想办法把各种蔬菜都吃进去。
And then you're supposed to have a diversity of fibers, so that becomes like a full time farming job if you're, like trying to find how do I get this diversity of vegetables into me.
所以在很多方面，补充纤维是有道理的。
And so I think in a lot of ways, supplementation of fibers makes a lot of sense.
完全正确。
Absolutely.
我也这么做，因为我是个营养师，对食物特别着迷，所以已经掌握了如何在饮食中摄入足量纤维，但这真的一点都不容易。
I I do the same thing, and I've mastered how to get the right amount of fiber in my diet because I'm a nutritionist and my obsession with everything food, but it's not easy at all.
而且它会让你很快就有饱腹感。
And it fills you up extremely fast.
是的。
Yes.
而且它也不总能很好地填满你的胃。
And it doesn't always fill well in your stomach either.
没错。
That's right.
对。
Yeah.
有趣的是，很多人对自身所需的特定纤维（即益生元）有着敏感的肠道菌群。
And interestingly, you know, a lot of people, they they have sensitive microbiomes to the exact fibers that they need that are their prebiotics.
因此，这确实是个难题。
And so that's a real conundrum.
事实上，肠易激综合征的发病率正在上升。
And and actually, you know, the incidence of IBS is getting worse.
我的意思是，在美国，我认为有三分之一的人患有肠易激综合征。
I mean, here in The US, I think a third of people have irritable bowel syndrome.
有些人症状非常严重，比如他们会说：
And so and some people have a really extreme case of it where they're like, okay.
我出门前必须先查好所有洗手间的位置。
When I go out of the house, I need to know where all the bathrooms are.
而其他人则症状较轻，他们会说，好吧。
And then other people have mild cases of it where they're like, okay.
我得小心一点。
I I have to be thoughtful.
我和朋友外出吃饭前，得先吃一片佩普替德。
I have to take Pepcid before I go eat a, you know, a meal out with my friends.
但肠易激综合征是个大问题。
And so but IBS is a huge problem.
所以有一种低FODMAP饮食。
And so there's a low FODMAP diet.
如果你知道什么是低FODMAP，抱歉。
So if you if you know what low FODMAP is, I'm sorry.
那说明你很可能正在遭受肠易激综合征的困扰。
That means you probably are struggling with IBS.
但这实际上关乎人们在摄入纤维时遇到的问题。
But it but it's really about a problem that people have with actually eating fibers.
所以其中一件事，我们之后可能会谈到这个。
And so one of the things and and we'll we might talk about this later.
但当我们考虑纤维补充时，也需要考虑到低FODMAP的要求，因为确实存在一些低FODMAP的纤维。
But one of things for us when we think about the supplementation of fibers is to also take into consideration this low FODMAP requirement because there are fibers that are low FODMAP.
所以你可以用那些不会彻底搞坏你肠胃的东西来填补纤维缺口。
So you can close that fiber gap with things that aren't gonna totally wreck your stomach.
如果你不介意的话，我想深入聊聊这一点。
I wanna get into a little bit of that, if you don't mind.
我们先把关于益生菌、益生元和后生元的话题说完，但我想谈谈纤维，因为这个话题根本没人讨论。
Let's finish what we were talking about with the pro and pre and post here, but I wanna discuss fiber because that does not get talked about at all.
我知道有些人甚至建议别人不要吃纤维，我完全无法理解这一点。
I know people that are like even telling people to not eat fiber, and I'm just completely lost on that.
但我想先把这一点说完。
But but but I wanna finish this one.
在你看来和建议中，你建议大多数人该怎么做？
So in your view and recommendation, what do you recommend that most people do?
当然，首先要关注你吃的食物，但补充方面也很重要，你说得对。
Obviously, address the foods that you're eating, but then supplementation wise, because I I do think that it's important to implement that in you're right.
你永远不可能在饮食上做到完美。
You're never gonna be perfect with diet.
不管你是谁。
I don't care who you are.
我希望能尽可能完美，但这并不现实。
And I like to be as perfect as I can, and it's just not it's not reality.
你建议怎么做？
What would you recommend?
好的。
Okay.
我自己就很不完美，所以我们做的所有产品都是为了弥补我糟糕的生活方式。
And I'm highly imperfect, so all the products we make are just to, like, supplement for my bad lifestyle.
所以，填补纤维缺口真的很重要。
So I think the closing the fiber gap is really important.
正如我所说，我们大多数人摄入的纤维都不够。
As I said, most of us are not eating enough fiber.
所以需要补充纤维。
So fiber supplementation.
如果你肠胃敏感，要留意这些不同纤维产品上标注的低FODMAP标识。
If you have a sensitive stomach, look for that low FODMAP, you know, on these different fibers.
市面上这类产品不多，但这是一个值得考虑的因素。
There's not a lot of things out there that have that, but it's just something to consider.
当你开始服用纤维补充剂时，不要一开始就直接吃下全剂量。
And then when you start on a fiber supplement, do not go whole hog into the full serving right away.
我的意思是，我想给所有人提个醒。
I mean, I just wanna give everyone that warning.
因为如果你那样做，你以后就再也不想碰这种纤维产品了。
Because if you do that, you're gonna never eat that fiber thing again.
没错。
No.
所以要循序渐进。
So just ease into it.
一开始先少量补充纤维。
Microdose your fiber to begin with.
是的，我认为补充纤维非常重要。
So, yes, I think fiber supplementation is super important.
至于其他补充剂，比如不同的益生菌，这主要取决于你想解决什么问题。
And then the other supplementation, you know, with these different probiotics has a lot to do with, you know, what is the problem you're trying to solve?
你觉得自己的身体在哪些方面缺乏菌群？
Where do you think that you have a depletion?
这可以通过肠道菌群检测来判断。
That could come through microbiome testing.
也可能是因为你希望改善消化功能。
That could come through I'm trying to have, you know, better digestion.
我真的很希望能够有效代谢我摄入的这些纤维。
I wanna really be able to metabolize these fibers that I'm eating.
我想能够有规律的排便。
I wanna be able to have be have regular bowel movements.
可能是我想提升我的新陈代谢。
It could be I'm trying to boost my metabolism.
说实话，市面上绝大多数益生菌只被证实对肠胃问题有帮助。
You know, to be honest, the vast majority of probiotics that are out there have only really shown that they can help you with GI issues.
是的。
Yeah.
这正是我们非常感兴趣的一点。
And that's one of the things that we were really interested in.
你能开始探索新陈代谢，开发帮助人们改善代谢的产品吗？
Can you start to explore metabolism and create products that can help people with their metabolism?
所以目前市面上的选择并不多。
So there's not a lot of options out there.
尽管微生物组有着巨大的潜力，但至今尚未真正实现。
Even though there's this big promise of the microbiome, it hasn't come to fruition quite yet.
所以存在这个问题。
So there's that issue.
然后是后生元。
And then postbiotics.
后生元对我来说是个难题，因为我总觉得它们有点扯淡。
Postbiotics are a tough one for me because I kinda think they're a little bit of bullshit.
不。
No.
请详细说说。
Please expound.
因为我不反对。
I because I don't disagree.
事实上，如果你用益生元来促进益生菌的生长，并补充你所缺乏的益生菌，它们自然会产生后生元。
Because the fact is that if you're using your prebiotics to grow your probiotics, and you're supplementing the probiotics you don't have, they're gonna make the postbiotics.
它们会完成这项工作。
They're gonna be doing the job.
你在这里拥有所有的制造工厂。
You've got all the manufacturing plant in here.
你正在喂养它们所有。
You're feeding all of them.
它们会完成自己的工作。
They're gonna do their jobs.
此外，后生元的递送是一个巨大的问题。
Moreover, the delivery of postbiotics is a huge problem.
我们以丁酸盐为例。
So let's take butyrate as an example.
你可以买到丁酸盐。
You can buy butyrate.
几乎每个供应商都出售丁酸盐。
Almost every vendor sells butyrate.
已有大量研究表明，丁酸盐有助于结肠健康，并能帮助小鼠代谢葡萄糖。
And there have been a lot of studies showing that butyrate can help you with colonic health and with, metabolizing glucose in mice.
让我再重复一遍。
Let me just repeat that.
有很多令人惊叹的研究表明，它对结肠健康和小鼠的血糖有帮助，但这些成果尚未真正转化到人类身上。
A lot of amazing studies on how it can help you with colon health and your blood glucose in mice, and they have not really translated into humans.
比如，找一个关于人类丁酸补充剂的优秀临床试验，能真正显示出在动物模型中观察到的那种效果。
Like, find me a great clinical trial of butyrate supplementation in humans that actually shows that kind of efficacy that they've seen in animal models.
这样的试验根本不存在。
It does not exist.
我一直在寻找。
And I have been looking.
我非常希望能找到这样的研究。
I would love to find that.
我们面对丁酸的问题在于，它是个递送难题。
And my the problem that we have with butyrate is it's a delivery problem problem.
你的结肠细胞是你体内唯一以丁酸作为主要能量来源的细胞。
So your colonic cells are the only cells in your body that use butyrate as their primary energy source.
其他所有人都使用葡萄糖，但你的结肠细胞使用丁酸盐。
Everybody else uses glucose, but your colon cells use butyrate.
所以当你服用丁酸盐补充剂时，要明白，所有那些结肠细胞都会争相争夺它，而在它真正到达目标之前就被抢光了。
And so when you take a butyrate supplement, just realize that all those colonic cells are fighting for it before it actually gets to its target.
所以这就像我说，我要送你一百万美元。
So it would be sort of like if I said, I'm gonna give you a million dollars.
你是希望我装在一个箱子里，敲开你的门，亲手把箱子交给你，还是希望我打电话给你说：嘿。
Would you rather I put in a suitcase, knocked on your door, and handed the suitcase to you, or would you rather me call you up and say, hey.
我把钱撒在了101号高速公路的各处。
I scattered it all over Highway 101.
你想要的话，自己去捡吧。
You just go pick it up if you want to.
你肯定会说：你能不能直接把钱给我啊？
You'd like, are you gonna give it to me, please?
而把钱撒在101号高速公路上，就相当于你服用补充剂时的做法。
And scattering it over Highway 101 is like what you're doing when you take the supplement.
一路上，每个人都在下车拿走你的钱。
All along the way, everyone is getting out of their cars, taking your dollars.
所有那些结肠细胞都在但丁酸到达受体之前就把它抢走了，而真正产生所有这些益处的正是这个受体。
All those colonic cells are grabbing all that butyrate before it gets to the receptor, which is actually what's gonna have all these beneficial effects.
因此，由于这种递送方式，但丁酸根本无法到达受体。
And so the butyrate is not getting to the receptor because of that delivery.
另一方面，如果你吃那些能增加你的但丁酸产生微生物的食物，那你就是在真正利用你身体的天然系统。
On the other hand, if you're eating the foods that are going to increase your butyrate producing microbes, then you're really using your body's natural system.
这些微生物存在于肠道菌群中。
Those microbes are in the microbiome.
它们产生但丁酸，并直接传递给附近的受体。
They are producing the butyrate and handing off right to the receptor right there.
所以这就像直接递给你一 suitcase 的一百万美元。
So that is the suitcase of a million dollars.
这太棒了。
That's beautiful.
谢谢你解释这一点。
Thank you for explaining that.
这对一些人来说是当头一棒，我喜欢这样。
That's a slap of reality to some people and I love that.
这正是我所追求的。
That's what I'm all about.
不。
No.
你说得对。
You're right.
而且这些东西被包装和销售的方式听起来很棒。
And things get marketed and sold a certain way and it sounds great.
确实如此。
It does.
确实如此。
It does.
但没有人剖析你刚才所做的，这正是我想要解释的原因，因为当这样解释时，它完全说得通。
But nobody breaks down what you just did, and that's why I wanted the explanation because it it makes total sense when it's explained that way.
但人们不会这么做，也不会提问。
But people don't do it, and they don't ask.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，对某些人来说，这确实有一定效果，但这是一种很弱的方式。
I mean, for some people, there is some efficacy, but it's a weak way to go about it.
我们可以谈谈安慰剂效应。
And we can talk about the placebo effect.
它是真实的。
It's real.
所以，如果你觉得它对你有效，我就直接说，你应该继续做下去。
And so if you're getting let me just say if it's working for you, you should keep doing it.
但安慰剂效应确实对身体有良好的影响，所以。
But the placebo effect still has a good effect on the body, so.
在安慰剂效应的世界里生活了太久。
Lived in the world of placebo effects for so long.
你能解释一下这是什么意思吗？
Could you just explain what that means, please?
这意味着你的心理状态会影响你的健康。
Well, it just means that your psychological state can affect your health.
谢谢。
Thank you.
好的。
Okay.
如果你相信它有效，它可能在短时间内有效，或者至少让你感觉它有效了一阵子。
If you believe that it's working, it may for a little while, or it may feel like it does for a little while.
我多年来一直处理这个问题，比如当我跟健美运动员合作时，他们告诉我这很棒，我就说，不，这根本没用。
I've I've dealt with this for years, like when I said working with bodybuilders and them telling me that this is great, I said, I'm like, no, it's it's not.
但好吧。
But okay.
只要你感觉良好就行。
As long as you feel good on it.
但如果你相信它有效，而且它确实对你有用，那就是真实的。
But if you believe and it's working for you, that's real.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，已有大量证据表明，如果你总是感到悲伤或抑郁，你更容易生病。
I mean, like, it's been very much shown on the other side of it that if you're sad all the time, or you're depressed, you're more likely to get sick.
我的意思是，你的大脑可以通过多种方式影响你的健康。
I mean, your brain can impact your health in so many ways.
所以如果你觉得这让你感觉良好，而且你认为它有积极效果，那就去做吧。
So if you're like, this makes me feel good, and I feel like it's having positive go go for it.
继续做下去。
Keep As doing
只要它不会伤害你，当然可以。
long as it's not hurting you, by all means.
是的。
Yeah.
我只是希望人们感到健康并且保持健康，所以这个方法是有效的。
We just I just want people to feel healthy and to be healthy, so that worked.
不。
No.
我在听。
And I listen.
我对你的态度、信念和体系完全支持，我确信这一点。
I am a million percent behind you on the the attitude and the bleep set and system, I know for a fact.
是的。
Yeah.
抱怨的人越多，他们越总是悲伤或低落，他们的血液检查结果肯定比那些不这样的人差得多。
And the more people complain and the more that they are always sad or down, guaranteed their blood panels are a mess compared to somebody that's not.
这是确定无疑的。
It's a certainty.
是的。
Yeah.
但从机制上讲，它们都是胡说八道。
But mechanistically, they're they're bullshit.
是的。
Yeah.
百分之百。
A 100%.
所以关于纤维的问题。
So the fiber thing.
我想谈谈这个。
This is what I wanna talk about.
纤维有不同的种类，就像你所说的，比如可溶性纤维。
There's different kinds of fiber, like you said, like soluble fiber.
我的意思是，它们是益生元纤维。
I mean, they're the prebiotic fiber.
膳食纤维的种类五花八门。
There's all kinds of different fibers.
你能不能和我聊聊我们人体必需的那些重要膳食纤维？另外我虽然已经做过好几期关于高纤维食物的内容，但还是很想听听你这样的专业人士的见解。
Can you kinda discuss the ones that we need that are important and maybe some kind of foods that I've done several pieces of content on high fiber foods, but it would be nice to hear from somebody like you.
好的。
Yeah.
嗯，我觉得，你知道的，可溶性膳食纤维和不可溶性膳食纤维都是人体需要的。
Well, I think, you know, you want both soluble and insoluble fibers.
我们会经常研究不可溶性纤维，因为这类纤维会和相当多的微生物产生相互作用，你懂的。
We think a lot about the insoluble fibers because those are the ones that, you know, interact with a fair number of microbes.
另外我们也会经常研究可溶性纤维，因为这类纤维会和另一类微生物产生相互作用。
And then we also think a lot about the soluble fibers because those interact with kind of another set of microbes.
所以在我看来，这两种纤维你都需要摄入。
And so I think so you want both.
也就是说如果你看到资料里提到不可溶性和可溶性纤维，那这两种你都得补充。
So if you're reading about insoluble and soluble, you want both of them in there.
不溶性纤维能帮助你产生饱腹感。
The insoluble fibers can really help you with that feeling of fullness.
是的。
Mhmm.
我们之前谈到过，天啊，你可以吃大量的纤维，比如那些蔬菜之类的东西，然后很快就感到饱了。
So we talked earlier about, oh, man, you can eat all the fiber, you know, all those vegetables and things, and then you just feel full really fast.
正是这些不溶性纤维让你产生饱腹感。
It's those insoluble fibers that give you a feeling of fullness.
因此，如果你正在努力控制食欲、减少食量和进食总量，这会很有帮助。
And so that can help you if you're trying to work on, you know, reducing your cravings and trying to work on reducing how much food you're eating, the volume of it.
如果你在用餐开始时先吃这些不溶性纤维，这简直就像一个小窍门。
If you start your meals with those insoluble fibers, that that can be a a, like, a little bit of a life hack.
有些纤维已被证明对心血管和代谢健康有益。
There are fibers that have been shown to have benefit to your, you know, cardiovascular and metabolic health.
比如抗性土豆淀粉，属于RS2家族，已被证实对心血管健康有好处。
So resistant potato starches, which are part of this RS two family, those are have been shown to have healthy benefits for cardiovascular health.
另外还有一个比较有意思的是燕麦β-葡聚糖。
And then one of the other ones that is sort of interesting is oat beta glucan.
对。
Yeah.
而且也有不少不错的研究证实了它对心血管健康有益。
And so that also has some pretty good studies showing its benefit to cardiovascular health.
确实是这样。
Definitely.
那可溶性膳食纤维和不可溶性膳食纤维有什么区别呢？
So what's the difference between soluble and insoluble fibers?
其实从字面上基本就能理解啦。
Well, it's almost exactly like what it sounds like.
那不可溶性膳食纤维，哦对了，它能帮你产生饱腹感，一部分原因就是它会延缓整个消化过程。
So insoluble, mean, part of the reason that it helps you with the feeling of fullness is that it it kind of it slows everything down.
要不我们先理一理，从头说起吧。
It's not so let's take a step back.
当你试图把糖溶解到热茶里时，非常容易。
When you are trying to dissolve sugar into hot tea, it's super easy.
它是可溶的。
It's soluble.
是的。
Yeah.
当你试图把糖溶解到冷茶里时，它就不可溶了。
When you try to dissolve sugar into cold tea, it's insoluble.
所以这就是可溶性和不可溶性的定义。
So those are just the definitions of soluble and insoluble.
明白了。
Got it.
对于任何尝试过的人，我从小在南方长大，那里经常制作甜茶。
For for anybody who's tried to I grew up in the South, so there's a lot of making of sweet tea.
当然。
Sure.
所以，纤维的情况也类似，你其实是在思考哪些物质容易溶解，哪些不容易溶解。
So so and the fibers are sort of similar in that you're really thinking about things that dissolve well versus don't dissolve well.
所以如果你买了纤维补充剂，心里想：为什么这个东西不溶解呢？
So if you're buying a a fiber supplement and you're like, why isn't this thing dissolving?
那是因为它很可能是不溶性纤维。
It's because it's likely an insoluble fiber.
比如车前子壳或Metamucil，就是不溶性纤维的典型例子。
So, you know, psyllium husk or Metamucil is a good example of an insoluble fiber.
试着把它混进水里。
Try to mix that thing in water.
你知道的吧？
You know?
你一边搅拌一边喝。
You're you're mixing and drinking at the same time.
那你对车前子壳有什么看法？
What is your opinion then on psyllium husk?
你觉得我们应该使用它吗？
Do you find it to be something that we should be using?
我只是想问你这个问题，因为很多人强烈推荐它。
Or because I I was just gonna ask you that because it's very, very highly recommended by many people.
是的。
Yeah.
它是研究最充分、最传统的纤维之一，就像你奶奶用的Metamucil一样。
It's one of the most well studied and old school fibers that is It's like, you know, your grandma's Metamucil.
是的。
Yeah.
事实证明，它对你仍然很有好处。
Turns out it's still good for you.
所以我认为人们重新发现了车前子壳，它对你非常有益。
And so I think there's been sort of a rediscovery of psyllium husk, and it's great for you.
它太棒了。
It's fantastic.
由于它不溶于水，喝起来或吞下去并不容易，但它对你很有好处。
It's not easy to drink or ingest because of that insoluble thing, but it's great for you.
我一向喜欢把它加在食物里。
I've always liked it when I put it in stuff.
你喜欢吗？
You like it?
我有点怪。
I'm weird.
是的。
Yeah.
我有点怪。
I'm weird.
我的意思是，基尼总是会说，而我则会说，我不知道。
I mean, Queenie would always be like, And I'd be like, I don't know.
该死。
Shit.
我喜欢它。
I like it.
我用它来维护心脏健康，这确实是其中一个原因，但它对肠道菌群健康也 definitely 有好处，毫无疑问。
I use it for heart health, really, is one of the reasons that I used it for, but it definitely for microbiome health as well, for sure.
它真的很好。
It's really good.
而且很多人对它敏感，所以again，最好慢慢开始使用。
And and a lot of people are sensitive are sensitive to it, so, again, like, just ease into it.
是的。
Yeah.
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
现在我会把它加到酸奶里，以前吃燕麦片的时候，我总是会混进去。
Now I put it in yogurt, or when I used to eat oatmeal, I used to mix it in all the time.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得这太棒了。
I thought it was tremendous.
我疯了。
I'm crazy.
我不知道。
I don't know.
不。
No.
不。
No.
对你来说很好。
It's great for you.
是的。
Yeah.
我把它加到饮料里，你知道的，但你说得对。
And I put it in drinks that I, you know, just but you're right.
你知道吗？
You know what?
这很有趣，因为当我把那种东西放进去时，我总是最后才放进摇杯里，结果冰块很少，或者都粘在底部。
It's funny because when I do put stuff like that in there, it's the last thing I put in the shaker cup, and man, you got very little ice or it clumps at the bottom.
是的。
Yeah.
而且你只会搞得一团糟。
And it you're just it's gonna be a big mess.
你会错过
You're gonna miss
它。
it.
嗯，就是那种情况，你喝到杯底时，会发现有一大块黏稠的东西，你知道的，是的。
Well, it's one of those you get to the bottom of your glass and there's just this, you know Yes.
厚乎乎的一团，你会想：我到底有没有吃进去任何东西？
Thick thing you're like, did I eat any of it?
我有吃到它吗？
Did I get any it in?
没有。
No.
然后我总是会——这听起来有点恶心，但我就会加一点水，然后迅速摇晃一下。
And then I would always this is gross, but I just put a little bit of water then and just slam it real quick.
我就是这个意思。
That's what I'm saying.
你就是这样。
You're Yeah.
一边搅拌一边喝。
Mixing and and drinking at the same time.
是的。
Yeah.
你必须这么做。
You have to.
你要确保别在里面弄一大杯东西。
It's you wanna make sure you're not making a large glass of stuff in there.
但燕麦片或者酸奶这个主意很棒，真的很好。
But it's great in I mean, the oatmeal or the yogurt idea, that's that's great.
是的。
Yeah.
完美。
It's perfect.
是的。
Yeah.
而且说实话，就像我说的，我喜欢它在里面的味道，但我加了蛋白粉之类的东西来让它更好喝。
And and honestly, like I said, I like the taste of it in there, but I put protein powders and stuff in there to make it palatable.
对。
Yep.
好的。
Okay.
所以我想做的就是，我在这里从不搞大牌产品，我真的不搞。
So what I would like to do then, and I I don't do big product stuff here, I just don't.
这并不是我的风格，除非是我真正、真正相信的东西。
That's not what I'm about, unless it's something I really, really believe in.
我不会点名一大堆品牌，但我只想说，我曾经合作过，或者可能合作过一些品牌，因为我希望在我所相信和代表的产品系列中，能有像TimeLine这样的东西——关于线粒体的产品，我认为它们是顶尖中的顶尖，我会永远为此背书。
I'm not gonna name a bunch of names, but I'm just gonna say that I've been worked, potentially worked with, because I really want in my repertoire of stuff that I believe in and represent, I want something like I have with TimeLine, which is mitochondria, and I think they are the best of the best of the best, and I'll stand by that forever.
我喜欢我的神经科学领域，这就是我为什么与Dr.合作的原因。
I like my neuroscience stuff, which is why I work with Doctor.
Dave，你知道的，所有关于迷走神经模拟之类的事情。
Dave, you know, and everything that it comes to simulating vagus nerve, and things of that nature.
所以我合作的人，都是经过深思熟虑的，都是我真正相信的东西。
So the people that I work with, it's very calculated, it's something I believe in.
我在益生菌、益生元这些微生物组领域已经历过重重考验，接触过你能想到的所有顶级品牌。
I've been through the wringer with microbiome stuff, with probiotics, with prebiotics, biggest names that you can think of.
正如我所说，我不会现在说出来，我们稍后再讨论。
Like I said, I'm not gonna say it, I'll have the discussion with you later.
但我确实想聊聊你们公司，因为我对你们在血糖控制方面的创新感到非常感兴趣。
But I do wanna talk about your company because I find the innovation glucose control, for example.
而且你们有一个新产品，我想请你稍微介绍一下。
And and you have a new product I'd like you to talk about a little bit.
正如我所说，这原本并不是我计划要做的事情，但在我认识你之后，进一步深入了解，尝试了一些产品，并与那些拥有巨额资金和强大营销的行业巨头进行对比后，我意识到了其中的差异。
And like I said, this was not something I even planned on doing, but I find through after I met you and then looking into it more, trying some of the stuff, realizing the differences, comparing against some of your biggest names out there that have all kinds of money and marketing and everything else.
能跟我讲讲你们产品的独特之处吗？你们具体在解决什么问题？尤其是血糖控制，这立刻引起了我的注意，因为这种东西并不常见。
Tell me a little bit about the why you have a differentiation in products, what you're addressing, specifically the glucose control, which really drew my attention immediately, because that's not something that is seen.
但我很好奇你们的研发过程是怎样的，为什么选择了这些方向？
But I'm curious as to the development process here, and why you picked what you did.
是的。
Yeah.
首先，非常感谢你的认可。
Well, first of all, we thank you for that.
我们最初从肠道微生物组入手，试图理解如何通过微生物组影响人类健康。
We approached the microbiome initially to try to understand where you could affect human health through the microbiome.
而且，正如我之前告诉过你的，我刚开始创办这家公司时，对保健品一无所知。
And we almost because of, I think I told you earlier, I didn't know anything about supplements when we when I started this company.
我知道的是，我不想做任何已经有人做过的東西。
And and what I knew is I didn't wanna do anything that had already been done.
结果发现，那只是你肠道菌群中非常小的一部分，所以实际上，我不需要在整体中做太多改变。
Well, it turns out that only represents a very small fraction of your microbiome, so it's like, actually, I didn't have to move very much in the pie.
还有大量的空间可以探索。
There's a lot more left.
但我也不想做任何已经有人做过的東西，而且我们知道，有机会去涉足各种不同的领域。
But I didn't wanna do anything that had already been done, and I we knew that there was gonna be opportunity to go after a wide variety of things.
我们选择了代谢领域，不仅仅是因为我自私，想提升自己的新陈代谢，而是因为那项研究告诉我，经常使用抗生素的孩子更容易肥胖和患糖尿病。
And we chose metabolism, not just that I'm selfish and I wanna boost my own metabolism, but we chose metabolism because of that study that I told you about that showed that kids who were on a lot of antibiotics were more prone to obesity and diabetes.
梅奥诊所做了这项研究。
The Mayo Clinic did that study.
这项研究最初是由纽约大学的马蒂·布拉泽完成的。
It was first done by Marty Blazer at NYU.
我的大女儿早产两个月，在重症监护室时接受了大量抗生素治疗。
And my first daughter was born two months prematurely, and she was on a lot of antibiotics while she was in intensive care.
她出生时，我对微生物组一无所知。
I didn't know anything about the microbiome when she was born.
他们给她用了这么多抗生素，并不是因为她有感染，而是因为早产儿的常规做法——她出生时只有四磅半重，他们担心如果感染了，她可能无法存活。
They gave her all these antibiotics, not because she had an infection, but it's a it's a protocol for preemies because she was born at four and a half pounds, and they worry if they get an infection, they're gonna they're not gonna be able to survive it.
是的。
Yeah.
于是她接受了所有的抗生素治疗。
And so she got all these antibiotics.
我们带着这个 tiny little baby 回了家。
We went home with this, like, you know, tiny little baby.
随着她长大，我意识到她对某些食物有我们都没有的敏感反应。
And as she got older, I realized she had food sensitivities that the rest of us did not have.
哦。
Oh.
她消化食物的方式和我们其他人不一样。
And she wasn't metabolizing her foods the way the rest of us could.
所以对我来说，我觉得，好吧。
And so for me, I felt like, okay.
我想了解肠道微生物组是什么，她经历的这种消耗到底是什么？
I wanna understand how the gut microbiome, what is that depletion that she experienced?
缺少了什么？
What's missing?
肠道微生物组如何帮助人体进行代谢？
How can the gut microbiome help you with their metabolism?
我们能做些什么？
What can we do here?
因此，我们才真正开始研究代谢。
And so that's why we really started studying metabolism.
当然，作为科学家，当你想到研究代谢时，你不会去担心那些正在优化自己代谢的人。
And, of course, as scientists, when you think about studying metabolism, you don't worry about, oh, the person who's optimizing their metabolism.
你会直接走到光谱的末端。
You're like, go all the way to the end of spectrum.
患有二型糖尿病的人，他们有代谢综合征和代谢功能障碍。
People with type two diabetes, they have metabolic syndrome, metabolic dysfunction.
我们能帮助这些人吗？
Can we help these people?
因为如果我们能帮助他们，就能帮助整个光谱上的所有人。
Because if we can help them, we can help all the way through the entire spectrum.
所以我们从二型糖尿病开始研究。
And so we started with type two diabetes.
你患有严重的二型糖尿病，我们开始研究健康人和糖尿病患者之间的差异。
You have full on type two diabetes, and we started looking at what's the difference between healthy people and people with diabetes.
我们研究了不一致的双胞胎。
We looked at twins who are discordant.
你们基因完全相同，但一个人代谢良好，另一个人却不是。
So you're genetically identical, but one of you has a great metabolism and one of you doesn't.
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