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今天的节目由Apollo Neuro赞助。
Today's episode is sponsored by Apollo Neuro.
Apollo Neuro是医生最推荐的可穿戴科技产品。
Apollo Neuro is the leading doctor recommended wearable technology.
Apollo获奖的Smart Vibes AI技术在后台默默工作，自动融入你的日常生活，通过轻柔且个性化的震动刺激你的迷走神经，帮你更快入睡、睡得更久，每天醒来时状态平衡、专注且充满活力。
Apollo's award winning Smart Vibes AI works effortlessly behind the scenes, automatically integrating into your life to deliver gentle, personalized vibrations that activate your vagus nerve, helping you fall asleep faster, stay asleep longer, and wake up balanced, focused, and ready each day.
不仅如此，Apollo Neuro还是唯一一款能提升你心率变异性（HRV）的可穿戴设备。
Not only that, but the Apollo Neuro is the first and only wearable that improves your HRV.
Apollo用起来毫不费力。
Apollo is effortless.
白天晚上戴着它，剩下的就交给它来完成。
Simply wear it throughout the day and night and let it do the work for you.
它安全可靠，适合所有人使用，没有任何副作用，也是唯一可以佩戴在身体任何部位的可穿戴设备。
It's safe for anyone and everyone with no side effects and is the only wearable that can be worn anywhere on your body.
真正的健康需要身心协调，而Apollo正是建立这种连接的关键。
Optimal health requires both the mind and body to be in line, and Apollo is the key to establishing that connection.
点击下方描述，使用我的专属优惠立省90美元。
Check the description below to save $90 with my special discount.
今天就开始用Apollo Neuro掌控你的健康。
Take control over your health today with Apollo Neuro.
好了，各位。
Alright, everybody.
欢迎回到Dylan Gemelli的播客。
Welcome back to the Dylan Gemelli podcast.
这是我迄今为止最兴奋的一期节目，我来跟你们说说为什么。
Most excited I've been on a show to date, and I'll tell you why.
如果你一直关注我，就知道我经常提到我的嘉宾设备——Apollo Neuro，但其实更让我激动的是他这个人，从我认识他以来的点点滴滴，我们聊过的所有内容，你教给我的那些东西，还有我们共度的时光——虽然对我来说还不够，但也已经很不错了。
If you follow me, then you know I talk about my guest device, the Apollo Neuro, all the time, but it's more so about him himself, everything about him, everything since I met him, everything that we've talked about together that you've taught me personally, the time we've got to spend together, not enough for me, but a good amount.
还有更多内容即将呈现。
But he More to come.
还有更多精彩等着你。
More to go.
百分之百。
A 100%.
没错，就是这样。
That's damn right.
他是每个人最爱的神经科学家。
It's everybody's favorite neuroscientist.
他是Apollo Neuro的联合创始人，这也是你广为人知的原因。
He's the cofounder of the Apollo Neuro, which is what you're well known for.
但今天我最想和你聊的是你即将出版的新书。
But what I'm most excited to talk about you today is the new book that is gonna be coming out soon.
我们会给大家透露一下这本书的内容和涉及的主题。
We're gonna give you some insight on that and the topics that are covered.
书里有些内容让我兴奋得不得了，书名叫《活着的简单指南》。
There's some stuff in there that it just excites me to no end, and it's called A Simple Guide to Being Alive.
不过，这根本不用多说。
But, I mean, it it goes without saying.
你所产生的影响、你所做的事情，还有你内心的温度，正是我喜欢你、把你当家人的原因，能再次和你在一起，真的太好了。
The impact that you have, the things that you do, and the heart that you carry is why I love you and think of you as family, and it's just it's so good to be back with you.
接下来是和我的嘉宾拉宾医生的第二部分对话。
And this is part two with my guest, Doctor.
戴夫·拉宾。
Dave Rabin.
非常感谢你邀请我，戴伦。
Thanks so much for having me, Dylan.
每次和你在一起都特别开心。
It's a pleasure to be here with you as always.
当你把这本书命名为《活着的简单指南》时，你心里想的是什么？
What does it mean to you when you put this together, A Simple Guide to Being Alive?
对我来说，这听起来就像一本生活手册。
Because to me, it sounds like a handbook of life.
作为医生，我经常遇到患者，他们特别困惑，不知道该怎么过好这一生，怎么活得长久，怎么真正享受生活，同时还得赚钱，完成社会期待的那些事。
I think that as a doctor, we often get patients coming to us all the time confused about how to live a good life, how to live a long life, how to just struggling to figure out how to enjoy life and make enough money and do all the things that we feel like we're supposed to be doing.
我去上医学院的时候，说实话，我读书的时间比大多数人长多了。
And when I went to medical school and I, you know, I've spent more time in school than most humans.
对吧？
Right?
大学毕业后，我整整接受了十二年的培训。
I've been in school for like twelve years post college in training.
这时间可不短。
So it's a lot of time.
等到培训快结束时，我发现自己其实还有很多不懂的地方。
And I realized myself, you know, coming through the end of my training, that there were still a lot of gaps.
我学会了怎么治疗严重的心理疾病。
And I learned how to treat people with severe mental illness.
也学到了很多帮助人们康复的方法。
I learned so much about how to help people heal and recover.
但我也发现，对很多人来说，我们学的那些方法还是不管用。
But I also realized that for a lot of people, many of the techniques we were taught to use still weren't working.
根本起不到什么作用。
Like, they weren't making a dent.
人们一辈子都带着症状，得长期吃药，还承受着各种副作用。
And people were still symptomatic for life, on medications for life, having a lot of side effects from medications.
我们被教导说，别用‘治愈’这个词来形容精神疾病，这一点让我特别震惊。
And there were you know, we were taught and I think one thing that was really astounding to me is that we were taught not to use the c word for mental illness.
对吧？
Right?
就是‘治愈’这个词。
The word cure.
其他医学领域都能用‘治愈’来形容各种病症的康复。
Like, all other practices in medicine are able to use the word cure for different things.
唯独我们不被允许用这个词。
We're not taught to use that word.
真的吗？
Really?
因为我们现在的治疗方法并不能让人痊愈。
Because our treatments don't cure people.
我们的治疗只是让症状稳定下来，而且是终身稳定，但患者依然处于病态中。
Our treatments stabilize people, and they stabilize people for life, but people are still sick.
所以这也是为什么，当你看全球范围内的精神疾病统计数据，尤其是美国和西方国家，过去十年里精神疾病的发病率急剧上升。
And so in part, that's why we've seen when you look at the statistics for mental illness around the world, but especially in The US and the Western world, mental illness rates have skyrocketed over the last ten years.
成瘾率在过去十年里也飙升了，而且情况还在恶化，没有好转的迹象。
Addiction rates have skyrocketed over the last ten years, and they're not getting better.
对，确实如此。
Mhmm.
每年情况都在变得更糟，这让我和许多同行都在想，也许我们该换种角度来思考这个问题。
They're getting much worse every year, which makes me think and many of my colleagues think, well, maybe we need to be asking different questions about how we're approaching this.
对吧？
Right?
也许治疗精神疾病还有别的方法，不只是让症状稳定，而是要找到根本原因。
Maybe there are other ways to approach mental illness, not from let's just stabilize somebody, but let's get to the root cause.
所以我开始深入探究根源时发现，无论是看西方医学在临床中对患者的观察，还是去研究西方医学的盲区——比如东方和部落医学中的呼吸法、冥想、瑜伽、正念、植物疗法和致幻疗法——这些其实都是从不同角度切入生命，只是用了不同的视角，对吧？
So when I started to dive into the root cause, I realized that whether you look at Western medicine and what we were seeing in the clinic in our patients, or when I started to look at what where Western medicine had gaps, like in the Eastern and tribal medicine approaches around breath work, meditation, yoga, mindfulness, plant medicine, and psychedelic medicine, I realized that that these are all different disciplines that are approaching life from different angles, but through the different lenses, right?
但我们面对的，其实是同一个问题。
But we're looking at the same thing.
如果你退一步来看，现在全球范围内精神疾病已经成了流行病，想解决这么复杂的问题，如果只靠西方视角，或者只靠东方或部落视角，确实会让人觉得特别棘手。
When you Well, taking a step back, when you look at trying to solve these really complex problems of mental illness that are epidemic worldwide now, and you look at trying to solve those problems from just a Western lens or just an Eastern or tribal lens, it seems really complicated.
人们感到迷茫。
People are confused.
病情也没有好转。
People don't get better.
但如果你真正从一个宏观的角度，比如三万英尺高空俯瞰整个领域，去思考这些不同体系之间有什么共同点时——
But when you actually look at the field taking like a 30,000 foot view and trying to figure out, well, what do these different disciplines have in common?
对吧？
Right?
西方医学和东方、部落医学，到底共享着什么？
What does Western medicine have in common with Eastern and tribal medicine?
那它们怎么才能融合到一起呢？
And how are they all how can they all come together?
当你把所有碎片拼起来，问题的答案自然就清晰了，因为你手里已经有了全部的拼图。
You start to actually be able to put the puzzle pieces together into the solution and solve the puzzle because you have all the pieces.
于是我开始跳出框架，去研究那些比西方医学更古老的其他传统。
So I started to look outside the box and study other traditions in the way they that were much older than Western medicine.
简而言之，当我从整体视角去看生命、心理疾病、健康与病痛，把东方、西方和部落医学这三种视角结合起来，才发现解决方案其实比我们想象的简单得多。
And long story short, I just realized that when you look at the whole view of of life and mental illness and and ease and disease, and you try to and and you look at it from the three perspectives together, eastern, western, and tribal medicine with all the pieces, the solutions are actually a lot more simple than we thought.
我发现医学院根本没教这些，我身边的医生和同行也都没接触过这些内容，于是我意识到：我得写这本书。
And so seeing that we weren't getting taught this in medical school and none of my medical colleagues and practitioners that I worked with were getting taught this stuff, I was I just realized, you know, I need to write this book.
我得把这些碎片整理出来，给人们一个清晰的指南，把所有这些体系的精华整合起来，让大家能自己拼出答案。其实这事儿没那么复杂，就是重新找回童年时的好奇、快乐、纯真、游戏、想象力和直觉，还有那种几千年来东方和部落文化一直谈论的灵性——现在，西方医学和科学终于开始证实这些真的存在。
Like, I need to put all these pieces together for people so that we could have a simple guide that actually pulls from all these different disciplines and gives people all the pieces they need to solve this puzzle on their own, helping kind of reframe this as as actually as simple as it really is, which is really getting back to childhood wonder and joy, innocence, play, imagination, intuition, like spirituality, all the good stuff that has been talked about for thousands of years by Eastern and tribal cultures, we're now finally proving in Western medicine and Western science are real.
而且它们不只是存在，它们还能改变我们的生理状态。
And not only are they real, they change our biology.
它们能延长寿命，提升心率变异性。
They extend our longevity, they increase our heart rate variability.
对吧？
Right?
这些方法能实现人们花几十万美元注射干细胞和接受疗法才想达到的效果。
They do all the things that people are injecting stem cells and paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for therapies for.
如果你能通过重拾童年的惊奇与玩耍免费获得同样的好处，人们理应知道这一点。
And if you could get the same benefits with reembracing childhood wonder and play for free, people should probably know that.
所以，这就是这本书的核心观点。
So that's kind of the thesis of the book.
我过去只专注于健身和营养，从来没意识到心智对一切事物的主导作用有多强。
I spent so much time only focusing on fitness, nutrition, and I never understood how important and how dominating the mind is over that, over everything.
我发现，越深入探索，跟越多有深度的人交流，比如我还没来得及跟你细聊的那位整脊医生，他做的其实是神经系统调节和修复这类深层工作——如果不先做好这些，其他所有努力都白费。
And what I'm coming to find is the more deeper that I dig and the more intellectual people that I talk to, even the guys that like what I'm going to do now that I haven't really gotten into you with, he's a chiropractor but he's doing like nervous system work and resets and things that go in deep because without doing that, all these other things don't work.
神经系统必须处于一种能接受我们所提供东西的状态。
Like the nervous system has to be in a state that's receptive to what we're offering it.
如果身体的协调性出了问题，而
So the alignment's off and if the
如果身体和心灵的协调出了问题，我觉得是这样，你怎么看？我相信身心是相连的，也不想说哪一方更重要。
alignment's off, it seems to me, now you tell me because I do believe in the mind body connection and I don't wanna say that one is more important than the other.
但我跟你保证，越深入研究，我就越觉得——这想法是慢慢积累起来的，一个月又一个月，心灵才是真正的关键，它决定了能否实现全面的健康平衡。
But I swear to you, the more I look at it, and I say this because now it's just progressed month after month after month after month, the mind is the more dominant part of this, that it really is the key to getting full health alignment.
如果你的心灵状态不对，不管做多少其他努力，都很难真正达到全面协调，因为心灵实在太主导了。
I don't think that if you're not there, you're ever gonna be fully aligned no matter what you do, and it's too dominant over the other aspects.
你觉得呢？
You tell me what you think.
没错，确实如此。
I mean, it's so, yes.
心灵确实占主导地位。
It is the mind is is dominant.
对吧？
Right?
因为心灵才是自我意识的所在地。
Because the mind is where our ego lives.
当我们因为觉得世界不安全而被训练成自我保护的状态时，大脑就会牢牢掌控一切，让身体陷入抗拒改变和学习的状态。
And when we're trained into a state of self protection because we believe the world around us is unsafe for any reason, then the mind The grip of the mind takes hold, and puts our bodies into a state where we resist change and learning.
这其实就是我在书里提到的，医生。
And so this is actually what I call in the book, Doctor.
戴夫的思维颠覆，这些概念其实很简单，但现代教育却一直教错了。
Dave's Mind Blowers, which are these very simple concepts that have been taught incorrectly in in modern education.
我说的现代教育，指的是过去几百年里，我们至今还在错误地传授这些内容。
And by modern education, mean for the last couple hundred years, that we still teach these incorrectly.
比如，我们一直被教导说大脑和身体是分离的、互不相关的。
Like, for instance, we teach that the mind and the body are disconnected, but we know and separate.
但我们很清楚，如果你长期处于心理或情绪困扰中却不加处理，身体迟早会出问题。
But we know definitively that if you are mentally and emotionally ill for an extended period of time and you don't do anything about it, you do become physically ill.
是的，没错。
Oh, yeah.
我们都知道，压力会加快心率、升高血压、加重呼吸频率。
We know that stress increases your heart rate and your blood pressure and and your breath rate.
我们还知道，只要你有意识地放慢呼吸，心率就会下降，思绪也会变慢，大概九十到一百二十秒内，你就会感觉好起来。
And we know that when you slow your breath rate intentionally by choice, your heart rate comes down and your thoughts slow down, and you start to feel better within ninety to a hundred and twenty seconds.
所以，身心之间显然存在着一种紧密而不可分割的联系。
So there's very clearly a mind body in intimate, irrevocable connection.
对吧？
Right?
如果我们从根本上否认这一点，就会错失利用这种联系、主动掌控局面的机会。
And if we deny that at the core, then we we lose out on the opportunity to to engage that relationship and take the wheel.
对吧？
Right?
我们任由环境牵着鼻子走，而不是意识到：其实我有能力影响结果，因为我可以改变自己的想法。
We let the environment steer what like, dictate what happens to us rather than us saying, oh, well, I actually have a say in the outcome because I can change my mind.
是的。
Yeah.
对吧？
Right?
我能决定改变自己的想法，这就是我的力量。
Like, I have the power to change my mind.
这股力量简直不可思议。
That is incredible power.
一旦你意识到，我们选择的言辞其实塑造了现实——因为语言赋予了我们存在以意义，这种力量几乎是无限的。
It's it's like potentially unlimited power when you realize that the way we choose words, for instance, actually dictates our reality because our words apply meaning to our existence.
对吧？
Right?
所以，回到你刚才说的，心和身是紧密相连的。如果我们从小被灌输这个世界不安全，比如经历了极端的困难，父母或榜样在我们面对挑战时从不支持我们，还总说——我们都听过这样的话：‘你怎么能干出这种事？’
And so so that's a so that's like a core piece is that, you know, going back to what you were saying, that the mind and the body are connected so that if we are taught, for instance, that the world around us is unsafe growing up because we're exposed to extreme hardship, lack of support from our from our parents or our role models when we're growing up and facing challenges, people who tell us many times, like we've all experienced, like, what's wrong with you that you did that thing?
‘你怎么会让这种事发生在你身上？’
And what's wrong with you to let that happen to you?
当你从榜样口中听到这些话，就会突然觉得自己根本没法信任自己，没法保护好自己。
And when you hear that from a role model, it all of a sudden makes us think that we can't trust ourselves to keep ourselves safe.
这正是创伤的核心。
And that's the core of trauma.
这其实就是把自己当成受害者。
It's actually like adopting a victim mindset.
就像骨头断了一样。
Like, that's a, it's like a broken bone.
没错。
Right.
这是一种自我信任的破裂。
It's a fractured self trust.
如果我尊重的人告诉我，我做错了事，没能保护好自己，还导致了问题，是我自己的错，那我本可以靠着支持度过难关，现在却只剩下内疚和羞愧。
If somebody I respect tells me that I did something wrong, that I couldn't keep myself safe, and that I caused a certain problem and I'm at fault, then now rather than overcoming the challenge I just had with support, I feel guilt and shame around that situation.
对吧？
Right?
这就会进一步破坏我对自己的信任，以及我相信自己能保护好自己的能力。
And then that fractures my trust in myself and my ability to keep myself safe.
一旦发生这种情况，从心理上讲，身体的反应就是我的杏仁核——大脑里那个负责恐惧的区域，也就是我们常说的爬行动物脑。
So when that happens, psychologically, the biological reflection of that is my amygdala, this fear center in my brain that goes back to ancient we call the reptilian brain.
对吧？
Right?
这可以追溯到远古的爬行动物。
It goes back to ancient reptiles.
它原本是为了帮我们应对危险、维持生存，但现在却总是不停地启动，因为它总觉得我们随时处于威胁之中。
That's there to protect us from threat and keep us alive starts to fire off all the time because it thinks that we are always under threat.
当我们感到威胁时，就不能让身体来主导。
And when we're under threat, we can't let the body lead.
我们不能再依赖直觉，因为我们已经不再信任自己的直觉了。
We can't let our intuition lead because we don't trust our intuition anymore.
重新回到身体，重新连接直觉——直觉通常知道什么是对的、什么是真实的；而我们的头脑却常常怀疑、质疑、评判，虽然这在很多情况下有用，但很多时候它不该做主导。
And coming back to our bodies and coming back to our intuition, which generally knows what's right and what's true, where our minds are often doubting what's right and what's true and questioning and judging, which is useful in many circumstances, but we but it often should not lead.
头脑的职责是跟随身体，对。
The mind is meant to follow the body Mhmm.
直觉才应该做主导。
And intuition should lead.
这一点也完全没有被好好教过。
And that's something that's also very, very much not taught well.
当我们学会不信任自己的身体时，大脑和杏仁核的恐惧控制就会占上风，牢牢抓住我们，让我们开始怀疑自己所有的体验，根本无法活在当下。
When we learn to not trust our bodies, then the fear control of the mind and the amygdala leads, and then that takes such a firm grip and hold on on us that we end up effectively doubting every single experience we have and not being able to be present.
所以你说得对，在现代社会，大脑在自我主导的状态下，已经被训练成要保护我们。
So to your point, yeah, in modern day, the grip of the mind has been trained to, in this ego dominant state, to protect us.
不过它并不是想伤害我们，对吧？
It's not trying to hurt us though, right?
没错。
Right.
很多人其实不明白，我们的大脑并不是想伤害我们。
That's the thing that I think a lot of people don't understand is our minds are not trying to hurt us.
它们也不想让我们的生活变得艰难。
They're not trying to make our lives hard.
它们只是觉得有危险，想保护我们，尽管实际上并不存在什么危险。
They're just trying to protect us because they perceive that there is danger, even though there isn't actually danger.
所以在书里，我从进化角度详细解释了大脑的这部分——杏仁核，它不仅在人类身上演化出来，早在远古爬行动物时期就已经存在，目的就是为了保护我们免受四类威胁，按致命速度排序。
And so in the book, I really help break this down from an evolutionary perspective where people can understand this part of the brain, the amygdala, evolved not just in us, but in all animals dating back to ancient reptiles to really protect us from four things, Lack of air, in in order of what will kill us first.
对吧？
Right?
最快致命的。
And fastest.
缺氧、缺乏人身安全和庇护、缺水、缺食物。
Lack of air, lack of physical safety and shelter, lack of water, and lack of food.
这四样东西是能最快要了我们命的。
Those are the four things that will kill us faster than anything else.
另外还有两样，分别是睡眠不足和与社会群体的联系缺失。
Then the other two are lack of sleep and lack of social connection to our community.
是的。
Mhmm.
所以一旦这前四项基本需求都得到了满足，你就可以说，我这些条件都具备了。
So when but when those first four issues are checked off, you can say, I have all these things.
对吧？
Right?
我有身体上的安全。
I have physical safety.
我有空气。
I have air.
我有水。
I have water.
我有食物。
I have food.
当我们完成这个清单，就能真正让杏仁核安静下来。
Then when we run that checklist, we can actually shut down the amygdala.
我们可以告诉自己，这些需求都满足了。
We can say, my these boxes are checked.
我现在可以深吸一口气，回到自己的身体里，知道身体是安全的。
I can take a deep breath right now and come back into my body knowing my body's safe.
然后你就重新开始。
And then you reset.
就这么简单。
And it's just that simple.
但如果我们不学会这么做，这些能力就会变得遥不可及。
But again, if we don't learn how to do that, those skills just become elusive to us.
没错。
Right.
我们忘了该怎么回到身体里。
We forget how to come back to the body.
你刚才说的时候，我想到几点。
So a couple thoughts that I had there while you were talking.
如果你从这个角度看，比如你受伤了，康复了，也挺过来了，假设是挺严重的伤，花了六个月。
So if you look at it from this point of view, if you get injured and you recover and you get over it, let's just say you get a decently bad injury, six months.
对吧？
Right?
但如果你遭受言语上的伤害，那可能会影响一辈子。
But if you get verbally injured, that can last a lifetime.
我正在思考心智和身体之间的区别，也正因如此，我觉得心智更占主导地位。
And I'm I'm correlating this in the difference between mind and body and why I feel like the mind is more dominant.
你想想看。
Then think about this.
当我跑马拉松或者参加什么艰难的赛事时，我的大脑通常会做出两种选择。
If I'm running a marathon or a race or something that's so just difficult, my mind can do one of two things.
要么说‘你做不到，别跑了’，要么说‘你能行，掌控一切，坚持下去’。
You can't do this, stop, or you can do this, run and control everything that we're able to do.
这正是我逐渐明白的原因。
And that's part of the reason why I'm understanding.
明白了。
Okay.
对。
Yes.
我不是说健康和营养不重要，这些当然得重视。
I'm not saying that you you of course, we want to address the health side of the fitness and the nutrition.
但如果你不先解决心理问题，光靠这些是做不到的。
Obviously, that goes without saying, But you're not gonna be able to do it.
如果你不先把心态调整好，真的很难坚持下去。
You're just not if this isn't done first.
反过来，只要心态对了，其他事情总能找到办法去做。
Now vice versa, if your mind's right, you can always go and do the other stuff.
没错。
Yep.
确实可以。
You can.
不保证你一定会做，但至少你有这个能力。
Doesn't mean you're going to, but you can.
对。
Right.
情况正好相反，你根本做不到。
It's the other way, you just can't.
对。
Right.
这根本不可能。
It's impossible.
是的。
Yeah.
我刚刚才想明白。
So it's just dawned on me right now.
赞美主。
Hallelujah.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
这完全关乎协调一致。
It's it's all about alignment.
对吧？
Right?
关键是和谐。
It's about harmony.
是身心协同运作，双方都在认真倾听。
It's about the mind and the body working together where they're both listening.
就像亚马逊原住民和东方传统所说的那样，讲究能量顺畅地来回流动。
There's a there's a clear like, as the as the, Amazonian people talk about the indigenous people and and even Eastern traditions, they talk about clear energy flow back and forth.
对吧？
Right?
所以关键在于清晰的沟通、协调与和谐。
So it's about it's about clear lines of communication and alignment and harmony.
而不是在这两者之间打一场仗。
So not a battle, not a fight between this and this.
这是这种沟通的顺畅流动，发生在 mind 和 heart 之间，mind 和 body 之间。
It's clear communication flow between this and this, between mind and heart, mind and body.
对。
Yeah.
当这些通道畅通时，身体向大脑传递信号，大脑就能直接理解，而不会先去评判。
And when those channels are open, then when the body sends signals to the mind, the mind can understand them without judging them first.
它只是去听。
It can just listen.
当大脑不带评判地倾听这些信号时，它就能通过感受来真正理解它们，而不是在感受之前就直接压抑。
And when the mind listens to those signals without judgment, it can actually understand what they are by feeling them rather than by shutting them down before feeling them.
如果我们不去感受那些情绪——它们只是信号，并不分好坏，这些情绪就会卡在身体里。
If we don't feel feelings, which are just signals they're not good or bad, then those feelings get stuck in the body.
然后它们就出不来，只能不断敲打大脑，仿佛在说：嘿。
And then they can't get out, and they just keep knocking at the mind being like, hey.
你需要感受到我。
I need you to feel me.
我希望你能感受到我。
I need you to feel me.
当你不去感受它们时，它们就像孩子一样。
And when you don't feel them, they're like children.
它们会敲得更响。
They just knock louder.
会大声喊叫：我需要你感受到我。
They scream louder like, I need you to feel me.
我正在试图给你传递信息。
I'm trying to send a message to you.
快接电话吧。
Like, answer the damn phone.
对吧？
Right?
它一直在不停地打来。
And it just keep calling.
是的
Yeah.
我们把这叫做焦虑。
And we call that anxiety.
对吧？
Right?
所以，这就是导致坐立不安的原因。
So, like, that is what causes restlessness.
慢性焦虑和长期压力的根源，不是去关注那些我们无法控制的外部事情。
That's what causes chronic anxiety and chronic stress is not it's paying attention to things we can't that are outside of our control.
更是因为内心和身体之间的不协调，而不是和谐。
It's also dissonance between mind and body, not harmony.
和谐的意思是，当情绪信号出现时，我们不会因为觉得不该有这种感受，或者因为它让人不舒服，或者别人告诉我们不该这样感受，就压抑或抗拒它。
Harmony means signal of emotion comes in, and we don't shut it down or resist it because we think we're not supposed to feel it because it's uncomfortable or because we were told we're not supposed to feel it.
我们只是如实去感受它，你猜怎么着？
We just feel it for what it is, and guess what?
这种感觉通常持续九十到一百二十秒，之后你就能明白它想传达的信息，从中吸取教训。
It passes by in ninety to a hundred and twenty seconds, and then you can take the message that you were supposed to be sending to us, understand what that is, and learn from it.
情绪过去了，你就继续做下一件事。
And feeling goes away, you move on to the next thing.
对吧？
Right?
但如果我们抗拒它，不让自己去感受，就会让身心产生冲突，就像一支乐队演奏得走调又不同步。
But if we if we are resist that and don't allow the feeling to happen, then we create dissonance between the mind and the body, and it's effectively like an orchestra playing out of tune and out of time.
听起来很难受，感觉也很糟糕。
It sounds horrible, and it feels horrible.
所以，这是我找到的最贴切的比喻，用来理解我们正在讨论的事——那就是协调一致。
And so so that so that is kind of the metaphor best metaphor that I found for, like, how to think about what we're talking about, which is it's it's alignment.
是平衡。
It's balance.
是像乐队那样，音准和节奏都合拍，而不是走调，因为走调听起来太难听了。
It's being in tune and in time together like an orchestra, not out of tune because out of tune sounds horrible.
我问你个问题
Let me ask you a
那我问你个私人的事，关于我自己的。
question then, and this is like a personal question about myself.
我想把这跟你刚才说的联系起来。
I I'm gonna correlate this with what you're saying.
在我心里，我有满满的爱，多得都溢出来了。
So in my heart, like, I have this amount of love that's like abounding.
满是同情，满是关怀，有时候甚至温柔得过了头，让别人受不了。
Just full of compassion and full of care and sometimes just maybe even too soft to a point for for others.
但我会经历一些时候，爱明明在那儿，我却没法表达出来。
But I go through these points in time where it's there, but I can't let it out.
我不知道这是为什么。
And I don't know why.
不是我故意压着不让它出来，可就是脑子里有个东西拦着，不让我释放。
It's not like I'm sitting here going Dylan, don't let it out, know, like, but something in my head is not allowing it.
所以我想问的问题和你刚才说的其实是相通的，我觉得它们是一回事。
So my question is correlate with what you're asking because I feel like it falls into line there.
那一个人为什么会这样呢？我相信肯定有不少人也经历过同样的情况。
What would one because I'm sure there's plenty of people that go through the same thing.
是的。
Yeah.
我有时候会跟别人讲自己的遭遇，把自己当成受害者，但问题是——
And I like to victimize myself here to people and tell people how the problems I have, but What?
谢谢你愿意分享这些真实的想法。
Appreciate your vulnerability.
唉，说实话，真是挺难的。
Well, yeah, man shit.
我身上背了太多这种东西了。
I've got a lot of it.
那到底是什么原因导致这样的呢？
So, what causes that?
比如说，到底
Like, what
背后的根本问题是什么？
is the underlying issue there?
每个人的情况都不一样，还是说都源于同一件事？
Is it different for everybody or is it something that happened?
你可以把它想象成阴阳的关系。
I mean, think about it like a yin and yang.
对吧？
Right?
阴代表凉爽、女性化、包容、敏感。
Like yin is cool, feminine, receptive, sensitive.
阳代表炽热、男性化、主动、行动。
Yang is hot, masculine, active, doing.
对吧？
Right?
在阴阳里，这两者始终处于平衡状态。
And in the yin yang, those are constantly in balance with each other.
我们从小被教育，作为男孩，我敢肯定你也和我一样经历过：当男孩表现出敏感时，你第一句被告诉的是什么？
So when we're taught growing up as young men, and I'm sure you experienced this the way I experienced it, which is when we express sensitivity as young men, what was the first thing as a young man that you were told?
那就是软弱。
Well, it's weak.
没错。
Exactly.
于是你就把这种想法内化了。
So you internalize that.
对。
Mhmm.
我也把这种想法内化了。
I internalize that.
世界上每一个在西方文化中长大的男孩，都会潜移默化地接受一个观念：敏感就是不对的，可其实敏感只是阴阳平衡的一部分，而阴阳的本质就是平衡。
Every single young man in the world that grows up in Western or at least in Western culture internalizes this concept that being sensitive, which is really just having a balanced yin yang because the yin yang is about balance.
这并不是说它存在于我们每个人身上。
It's not about it exists in all of us.
对吧？
Right?
我们每个人身上都有阳刚和阴柔的能量。
There's masculine and feminine energy in all of us.
是的。
Yeah.
东方传统里就是这么讲的。
Eastern tradition around them.
不是说我们生来是男人，就只有阳刚之气。
It's not like because we're born men, we're just yang.
不是的。
No.
我们身体上是男性，但体内同样有阴有阳，就像女性体内也有阴有阳一样。
We are physically male, but we have yin and yang in us just like women have yin and yang in them.
所以这两种能量是相互平衡的。
And so the energies balance each other.
如果我们从小被教导，表达敏感是软弱、不被接受的，那我们就会把这种感觉压抑下去。
So if we're taught expressing sensitivity is weak or not okay, then we shut it down.
当我们开始感受到那种敏感涌上来，身体和心里涌现出强烈的情绪时——哪怕在本可以安全表达的时候，我们内心早已被几十年的训练塑造成了这样。
So when we start to feel that sensitivity come up and we start to feel those powerful emotions in our bodies and our hearts at any time, even when it normally would be safe to express them, there's a part of us that has been trained now for decades Mhmm.
它在提醒我们：表达这些情绪，就不是男人该做的。
That says, it's not okay to express that you're a man.
男人就得有男人的样子。
Be a man.
对。
Yeah.
对吧？
Right?
别表现出来，别展示这种所谓的软弱，其实那根本不是软弱。
Don't show that don't show that weakness when it's not weakness.
对吧？
Right?
那你总不能在董事会开会时突然哭起来吧？
And so do you wanna necessarily start shedding tears in the middle of a board meeting?
当然不能。
No.
有些场合确实可以坦诚说：我现在情绪挺敏感的，但不是合适的时候。
And there are certain situations where it's totally okay to say, you know, I'm feeling really sensitive right now, but this isn't the right time.
但之后得找时间回来处理，对吧？
But to come back to it later, right, to make time.
是的。
Mhmm.
等之后再回来，重新找回平衡，因为也许在董事会那会儿，你更需要阳刚的一面。
To come back to it later and restore the balance, because maybe in that board meeting, you need more yang.
等开完会，回到家跟家人在一起，或者独自一人，陪着宠物，或者在海边，你就可以再把阴柔的一面放出来。
Maybe when you come back after the board meeting, and you're chilling in your home with your family, or by yourself, with your pets, or at the beach, you can bring that yin out again.
没错。
Right.
对吧？
Right?
关键就在于理解这种动态平衡，然后去调整它。
And so it's all about just this dynamic understanding this dynamic balance and then balancing it.
对吧？
Right?
如果我们不承认这些都不是软弱，真正软弱的是压抑它们。
And if we don't acknowledge that none of it is weak, it's actually weak to shut it down.
对吧？
Right?
拒绝平衡，才是软弱。
It's the rejection of the balance is weakness.
正是这种拒绝造成了软弱——当我们说，我敏感的部分是弱的，所以我永远不许它们露面。
And that's what creates weakness because when we reject the balance, if we say like, my sensitive parts are weak, I won't allow them to come out ever.
对吧？
Right?
于是那些敏感的部分就开始试图掌控整个系统，它们会想：你为什么不理我？
Then those sensitive parts start to try to take over the system because they're like, why are you ignoring me?
我也是你的一部分。
I'm part of you.
对吧？
Right?
然后它们就开始变得操控性强、咄咄逼人，想方设法控制局面，因为它们一直被压抑，没法表达自己。
And then they start to become manipulative and overbearing and start to like try to control and take over the situation in different ways because they're not allowed to express themselves.
没错。
Right.
我们每一个部分都需要被表达，都需要在整体中感到安全。
And all of our parts need to express themselves and feel safe within the whole.
所以这也是我们开发Apollo的重要原因——当我们讨论这些话题时，固然很重要，但我们称之为自上而下的学习方式。
So that's actually a big part of why we developed Apollo, because when we talk about this stuff, it's really important to talk about, but we call that top down learning.
这是另一件在教学中被严重忽视的事，我在书的开头就提到过：我们学习的方式其实有两种。
This is another thing that's really poorly taught, that I talk about at the beginning of the book, is that there are two ways we learn.
对吧？
Right?
比如听这个播客、读这本书，或者在学校里上课，这些都是自上而下的学习方式。
There's people listening to this podcast and reading the book, and reading the books we're learning in school and all that, and that's top down learning.
从大脑到身体。
Cognitive brain to body.
通过大脑去理解，再试着通过练习把理解传递给身体。
Understanding through the brain, we try to pass that down to the body through practice.
还有一种同样重要的学习方式，如果说要讲平衡的话，那就是自下而上的学习。
Then there's the other kind of learning that is equally important, if not speaking of balance, right, which is body first learning.
从身体出发的体验式学习。
Bottom up experiential learning.
看着别人做一件事，然后自己模仿着去做。
Watching somebody do something and then trying to imitate it.
去感受一种感觉，然后凭着这种感受去重现它，而不是靠理解。
Feeling a feeling and then trying to re like recreate that feeling based on feeling, not based on understanding.
你有没有试过光看说明书学骑自行车？
Have you ever tried to ride a bike by reading an instruction manual?
不可能吧。
Negative.
对吧？
Right?
那得多难啊？
How hard would that be?
简直难到不行。
It would be so hard.
没错。
Right.
或者光看说明书学任何一项运动，像这种事，我们根本就不会这么做。
Or to play any sport by reading an instruction manual, like, like, we just don't do that.
不太靠说明书
Not much of
我可不是那种依赖说明书的人。
an instruction manual guy.
没错。
Exactly.
但你其实一直在学。
But you're still learning.
对。
Right.
你之所以能精通，是因为身体在主导学习过程。
And you're mastering because your body's leading the learning in those cases.
所以我们学任何东西，都是自上而下和自下而上同时进行的。
And so we learn everything by top down and bottom up together.
我明白了。
I see.
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这就是我们最大化学习效果的方式。
That's how we maximize learning.
但这一点通常教得特别差。
That's very poorly taught.
如果我们只靠理解来学习，而不从身体出发，那就错过了50%的可能性。
But you're we're missing 50% when we only try to learn by understanding and not from the body.
所以Apollo是一种自下而上的工具，它教会身体如何同时在阴和阳中感到安全。
So Apollo is the bottom up tool that's like that teaches the body how to feel safe with yin and yang at the same time.
如何在敏感时感到安全，如何在强势时感到安全，如何在各种合适的情境中都感到安心。
How to feel safe being sensitive, how to feel safe being dominant, how to feel safe in all these different situations where it's appropriate.
对吧？
Right?
还有如何在表达自己、表达和感受情绪时，既感到安全，又不显得软弱。
And then how to feel safe and not weak expressing ourselves and expressing and feeling our emotions.
而这本书则是自上而下的部分，解释了这一切背后的原理。
And then the book is the top down, which is the explanation of how it all works.
但这两者我们都需要。
But we need both.
所以身体始终需要它自己的指引。
And so the body always needs its own instructions.
因此，当我们思考一般意义上的学习时，撇开Apollo和这本书不谈，关键其实就在于平衡，就像我们刚才谈感受时说的那样。
And so it's really when we think about learning in general, aside from like Apollo in the book, just learning in general, it's really about balance, similar to what we're talking about with feeling.
这就是为什么，由于我们在这个文化中从小被教导的方式，我们才压抑了这么多东西，导致长大后这些情绪以各种奇怪的方式爆发出来。
And so that's why because of what we're taught growing up as young men in this culture, that's effectively why we shut a lot of that stuff down and why it comes out in all these weird ways as we get older.
老兄，说真的，我也不确定我现在是处在阴还是阳的状态，但你这种新氛围让我感觉特别踏实。
Man, I'll tell you what, I don't know what part of yin or yang I'm in with this new vibe you put on, but it feels pretty solid, man.
我感觉真的非常好。
I I feel pretty damn good.
是的。
Yeah.
我刚来的时候还有点累，但现在完全不一样了，老兄。
Because I was a little tired when I got here, but I don't feel like that anymore, man.
这感觉真不错。
I've this is nice.
是的。
Yeah.
我们现在俩人都沉浸在这种新氛围里，就是我们刚推出的那种充满活力、专注社交的节奏。
So we're both rocking the conference vibe right now, which has a brand new vibe we just put out, which is, like, energizing social focus flow.
对。
Mhmm.
就像你一样，我每周得熬三个通宵，家里有十六个孩子，白天根本没安静时间写书，这种创作必须全神贯注才行。
And, you know, just like you, you know, like, I've been I've been, like, staying up, like, three nights a week all night, you know, because I have 16 olds at home, and so I can't write the book during the day then finish because I don't have any quiet time, and it requires all of my focus to do this kind of work.
白天我还要经营公司、看病人，忙得不可开交。
And then I'm running a company during the day and seeing patients and all that.
所以书只能晚上写。
And so I have to do the book stuff at night.
我现在严重缺觉。
And so I'm super sleep deprived.
今天特地飞过来见你，录这个播客。
Flew here today to see you and do this podcast.
所以我们俩现在终于搭上同个节奏了，感觉特别对味。
And and so, you know, we just got on the same vibe, now we're rocking.
这感觉真不错。
It feels good, man.
我打算每天都这么干。
I'm gonna start doing this every day.
我跟你说过，我向来最守规矩，每天做的都一样，但我觉得这一套对整周都会特别有帮助。
I told you, like, I'm the most same regimented guy, so I do the same ones every single day, but I think this is gonna be super helpful throughout the week.
我特别欣赏你做的，就是不断推出新点子，我们聊想法、聊创意，但你总能在一个系统里触发各种不同的可能性，让它往新方向走。
And that's what I love that you do is the innovation coming out with new ones, and we talk about ideas and everything, but there's so many different things that you can trigger within a system to to get it going in a different direction.
没错。
Right.
我以前根本想不到这一点，刚接触这东西的时候，觉得挺神奇，但从来没想过，原来还能有二十种不同的走法。
I would have never dreamed of thinking because in my mind it was like, man, this is when I first got learning about it, it's amazing, but I I never really thought about, well, you could go 20 different routes.
现在是三十种不同的路径，而且还能一直继续下去。
Now 30 different routes and just keep going and going and going.
没错。
Right.
你到底是怎么不断想出这些点子的？要创造出完全不同的感觉，让它们真正融入身体，这有多难？
How do you keep coming up with these ideas and and how difficult is it to create a different feel for what you're trying to like push through into a body?
这是个好问题。
Yeah, it's a good question.
我觉得，
I mean, I think
要是我跟你说，有一种分子能同时帮助身体排毒、增强免疫力、保护细胞，你会怎么想？
What if I told you that one molecule will help keep your body system cleansed, support immune health, and cellular protection all at once.
我说的是谷胱甘肽，也就是身体的主抗氧化剂。
I'm talking about glutathione, aka the body's master antioxidant.
它存在于几乎每一个细胞里，帮助保护DNA、蛋白质和细胞膜免受氧化应激，同时在肝脏解毒、线粒体产能和免疫平衡中发挥关键作用。
It exists inside nearly every cell, helping to protect DNA, proteins, and cell membranes from oxidative stress, as well as playing a major role in liver cleansing, mitochondrial energy production, and immune balance.
可惜的是，污染、毒素和压力会迅速消耗体内的谷胱甘肽，而且随着年龄增长，身体合成谷胱甘肽的能力也会下降。
Unfortunately, pollutions, toxins, and stress can rapidly deplete glutathione levels, and as we age, glutathione production decreases as well.
而且很多传统的谷胱甘肽补充剂吸收效果很差，很难真正提升细胞内部的谷胱甘肽水平——而那里才是它真正起作用的地方。
And many traditional glutathione supplements do not absorb well, making it extremely difficult to raise intracellular levels where glutathione actually works.
所以我才用 Glutaril，这是由杰出的纳扬·帕特尔医生研发的多专利外用谷胱甘肽产品。
And that's why I use Glutaril, the multi patented topical glutathione developed by the amazing Doctor.
纳扬·帕特尔。
Nayan Patel.
它不靠消化吸收，而是通过皮肤渗透，提供一种方便又稳定的方式，来支持身体最重要的抗氧化系统。
Instead of relying on digestion, glutaril absorbs through the skin, helping provide a convenient and consistent way to support the body's most important antioxidant system.
所以请用简介里的链接，输入代码 DYLAN，今天就能省15%。
So use my link in the description and code DYLAN to save 15% off today.
生活中有无数种状况都会让我们失去平衡。
So there are infinite states and situations that knock us out off balance.
是的。
Yeah.
对吧？
Right?
所以并不是说有无数种情况让我们陷入失衡，而是我们可以为这些情况创造相应的氛围。
So it's not so there are there are infinite situations that we can create vibes for.
Apollo发出的振动，其实是为你的身体谱写的乐曲。
The vibrations that come out of Apollo are songs for your body.
它们就是实实在在的音乐。
They're literal music.
这是我们团队在匹兹堡大学发现的一种声波算法，由声波构成。
It's sound waves that we discovered in the University of Pittsburgh that is a sound wave algorithm that my team and I discovered.
我们在这本书里第一次深入讲述了这个故事。
And we talk about the story in the book for the first time really in-depth.
这个发现源于我们对音乐以及音乐对神经系统影响的研究。
And it was from studying music, and the effects of music on the nervous system.
明白了。
Okay.
还有温和的触觉对神经系统的影响，以及MDMA对神经系统的作用。
And soothing touch effects on the nervous system, and MDMA's effects on the nervous system.
结果发现，至少在我2014年刚开始做这项研究的时候，所有这些方式——温和的触觉、舒缓的音乐等等——对创伤和抑郁患者都有显著效果。
And it turns out that at least back in 2014 when I started doing this work, all of these things, soothing touch and soothing music and all these things had great effects for our patients with trauma and depression.
他们都在用这些方式来自我疗愈。
They were self medicating with these things.
对吧？
Right?
他们还靠服务动物来自我疗愈。
They were self medicating with their service animals.
他们也总是靠自己最爱的歌来调节情绪。
They were self medicating with their their favorite songs all the time.
对吧？
Right?
但你在工作的时候，总不能一直听音乐吧。
But you can't always listen to music when you're at work.
你也不可能随时带着宠物去上班。
You can't always have your animal with you at work.
于是，当这些安慰方式被剥夺时，他们就开始失去平衡。
And so that's when they started to get knocked off balance.
所以我们开始研究，当你在情绪低落时，被一个你亲近的人拥抱，或者突然听到一首最爱的歌，你的神经系统到底发生了什么变化。
So we started to look at, you know, well, what's actually happening in the nervous system when you get a hug from somebody you like on a bad day, or when you hear your favorite song come on by surprise on a bad day.
那时候，我正在研究MDMA辅助疗法，因为这是当时最有效、对创伤治疗效果最显著的疗法，短期和长期疗效都远超以往任何方法。
And when I was at this time, I was studying MDMA assisted therapy because this was the best, most effective treatment that had short and years long lasting benefits to trauma treatment, better than anything we'd ever seen before.
只需要在十二周内接受三次药物治疗，配合心理治疗，就像用抗生素治疗感染一样高效。
Like, just three doses of medicine in twelve weeks of psychotherapy, and like an antibiotic protocol effectively.
治疗后，很多人不再符合创伤后应激障碍的诊断标准，一年后依然保持良好状态。
And people were better, no long better as in no longer meeting symp like diagnostic criteria for PTSD at one year out.
有些人甚至只用了三次药物治疗，效果就持续了五年。
And some people, the benefits were lasting five years with just three doses of medicine.
这跟我们以前的治疗方法完全相反——那些疗法里，患者往往终身受苦，一旦停药，绝大多数都会复发。
This is the opposite data statistics we were seeing with our our treatments where people are sick for life and you stop medicine, most of them relapse.
对吧？
Right?
这比我们之前看到的成果强太多了。
So this was, like, leaps and bounds better than what we were seeing.
没错。
Right.
这彻底改变了整个领域的认知。
It's paradigm shifting for the field.
所以我心想，我们得弄清楚这东西在大脑里到底是怎么起作用的。
And so I thought, well, we need to figure out how this thing's working in the brain.
对。
Right.
对吧？
Right?
MDMA确实在起作用，这一点在双盲、随机对照、最严谨的临床试验中都得到了无可辩驳的证实。
Like, MDMA is really doing this, which it was in the trials, in double blind, randomized, incredibly the most rigorous form of clinical trial, it was undeniable it was working.
这些患者跟我临床上看到的是一样的，都在苦苦挣扎。
And these were the same patients I was seeing in the clinic that were struggling.
我就想，我们得弄清楚这种药到底激活了大脑的哪些部位，为什么它能起效，这样我们才能找到自然激活这些区域的方法。
And I'm like, we have to figure out what parts of the brain this medicine's activating and why it's working so we can figure out how to how to activate these parts of the brain naturally.
是的。
Yeah.
结果你猜它激活了大脑的哪些部位？
Turns out, guess what parts of the brain it activates?
岛叶皮层和杏仁核。
The insulate cortex and the amygdala.
正是这些部位，跟温柔的触碰、或者在心情糟糕时听最爱的那首歌有关。
The same parts are involved in soothing touch and hearing your favorite song on a bad day.
于是我突然明白，以前我一直说不清，为什么那种感觉会这么好。
And so I was like, wow, I never had a good explanation for why that felt so good.
基拉，你有过这种体验吗？
Kira, have you?
没有。
No.
对吧？
Right?
我的意思是，你怎么可能不知道，这是人人都有的体验。
I mean, how would I You know, the universal human experience that
我们都默认这是真实的。
we just all accept is real.
是的。
Yeah.
我们都在做，但根本不知道为什么有效。
And we do it, but we have no idea why it works.
我当时就想，我得弄明白这背后的原理。
And I was like, I need to figure out how this works.
后来我开始研究MDMA，研究它激活的神经通路，那一刻我恍然大悟。
Then it was like a light bulb went off when I started studying MDMA, and the neural pathways that it activates, I was like, oh my god.
这和朋友给你一个拥抱，或者听到你最爱的那首歌时激活的脑神经通路是一样的。
This is the same neural pathways that getting a hug from a friend or hearing your favorite song activate.
于是我们开始尝试不同的振动模式，不再只是作曲，因为我们知道，音乐几千年来一直被证明能针对不同情境引发特定的情绪和心理状态。
So then we started to play around with these different vibration patterns and started rather than composing, knowing that music has been proven for thousands of years to induce different mood and emotional state for any situation.
当然。
Of course.
对吧？
Right?
我们就是默认这是真的，因为它是一种普遍的人类体验。
Like, we just accept that it's true by fact because it's a universal human experience.
是的。
Yeah.
我当时就想，既然音乐能做到这一点，那如果我们为其他感官系统专门创作‘音乐’会怎么样？
I was like, well, if music can do this, then what if we just compose music for a different sensory organ system?
对吧？
Right?
那如果音乐是穿在身上的，而不是通过耳朵听的，这样就不必一直戴着耳机也能获得效果了，毕竟总不能时刻戴着耳机吧。
So what if the music is wearable on your body rather than through your ears, and then you don't have to have headphones on to get the benefits, which you can't have headphones on all the time.
你一直戴着耳机，对周围的人显得特别不礼貌。
You seem, like, really disrespectful to the people around you when you're wearing headphones on all the time.
你我都明白这一点。
You and I know it.
我们经常看到Z世代的人这么做，比如在做客户服务的时候，你明明应该专心接待客户，却还在戴耳机。
We see Gen Z people doing it all the time Like, when they're supposed to be like in a customer service role and you're
你是不是戴着耳机呢？
like, are you wearing headphones?
真的吗？
Seriously?
他们可能只是压力太大了。
They're probably just really stressed out.
我理解他们的处境，但到了二十一世纪，我们完全能做得更好。
And so like I feel for them, but like, we can do better now in the twenty first century.
对吧？
Right?
既然我们已经知道皮肤也能接收音乐，这正是Apollo诞生的由来。
Like, now that we know that that that the skin can receive music, that is what led to the creation of Apollo.
所以我们现在能为各种场景打造专属的氛围。
And so we can create vibes for anything.
现在我有更多时间来做这件事，我们就定下了一个每月发布一种新氛围的节奏。
So now we're in a pattern that since we I have more time a little more time to do this, we're in a pattern of releasing a vibe a month for people.
每一种氛围，都是根据用户反馈来的——他们告诉我们，他们需要什么。
And each vibe is basically whatever our people reach out to us and they say, this is what we need.
我们想在疲惫的时候更有自信。
We wanna feel more confident when we're tired.
我们想更有活力。
We wanna feel more energized.
我们想能沉下心来，哪怕面对特别枯燥的内容，也能坚持学很久。
We wanna feel like we can dive in and study something that bores the crap out of us for extended periods of time.
我们希望下班后能更平静、更专注地陪伴家人。
We want to be more calm and present with our loved ones after work.
所以我们直接问大家的意见。
So we just just survey everybody.
我们就说：你希望有什么样的情绪体验？
We're like, tell us what vibes you want.
于是我们开始自己创作这些情绪体验。
And so we just started composing them.
我们一直在实验室里创作，然后陆续发布，你现在就能试一试最新的一个。
And so we've been composing them in the lab and releasing them and and you get to try the one of the latest ones right now.
我太喜欢了。
I love it.
而且这真的很棒，因为它能让你清楚地感受到自己当下真正需要的是什么。
Well, I mean, and it's it's cool because it it does give you that different sort of feel for what you need and what you want.
就像你刚才说的，我以前一直不明白，直到最近才明白，我们生来就是为了去爱。
Because I, you know, like you said, no, I never really understood why until recently that when you understand that we were made and created to love.
这本来就是创造的初衷。
I mean, that's the whole point in creation.
圣经里的一切，最终都回归到爱。
It anything in the Bible always reverts back to love.
我读过整本新约，记得第一次读的时候，我就觉得，这整本书说的其实就是爱，只是你得慢慢领悟它真正想表达的意思，核心始终围绕着爱。
I read the I read the whole New Testament and it I remember the first time I read it, I said, well, this essentially is just talking about love the whole time until you then you grasp what it's really saying, but it revolves around that.
我们被造就是为了做这件事。
That's what we were created to do.
所以不用说，我们都明白这一点。
So it goes without saying, we get that.
我们一感受到它，立刻就觉得舒服，因为这正是我们被设计成该有的感觉。
We feel good instantly because that's what we were designed to feel.
但再说一遍，圣经的教导是自上而下的。
But again, the Bible is top down learning.
没错。
Right.
对。
Right.
对。
Right.
所以很多人在这方面有困难，确实如此。
So that's why so many people have trouble Yeah.
要真正学会并活出这种爱，确实不容易。
Learning and actually manifesting that in being Right.
因为这完全是自上而下的方式，没错。
Because it's just top Yeah.
我们缺少的是那种真切感受到的爱。
We're missing the felt love.
对吧？
Right?
我们缺少的是那种感觉——爱到底是什么样的体验？
We're missing like, oh, what does that love feel like?
哦，我给忘了。
Well, I forgot.
所以我只能凭自己在圣经里读到的内容，去猜那种感觉应该是怎样的。
So I'm just gonna do what I think it feels like based on what I'm reading in the bible.
你漏掉了一半。
Well, you're missing 50%.
对。
Yeah.
爱至少有一半是感觉。
Like 50% at least of love is feeling.
是的。
Yeah.
起码是一半。
At least.
这需要付诸实践。
It takes implementation.
你再怎么读都没用。
You can read all you want.
我是说，我读再多，就算变成世界上最聪明的人，也不代表真能用得上。
I mean, I could read and become the smartest in the world, but it doesn't mean it's working.
没错。
Right.
如果你光读别人说拥抱是什么感觉，却从没真正抱过一次，你真能懂吗？
And if you just read about what hugs feel like, but you never actually get one, are you actually gonna know?
不能。
No.
差远了。
Not even close.
对。
No.
对。
No.
不行。
No.
不行。
No.
不行。
No.
不行。
No.
那些词根本解释不了那种感觉。
You can't ex those words can't explain that.
对吧？
Right?
词最多也就到这个程度了。
Word they're at best.
词，顶多也就这样了。
Words are best at best.
即使有最好的词汇和最出色的作家，语言对现实的描述也总是不完美的。
Even with the best words and the best authors, words are are an imperfect description of reality.
对吧。
Right.
现实大部分是种感受。
Reality is mostly feeling.
是的。
Yeah.
对吧。
Right?
没错。
Yeah.
所以语言试图描绘的是人的体验。
So words are trying to describe human experience.
人的体验就是现实。
Human experience is reality.
对。
Right.
文字只是一种隔层。
Words are one layer of separation.
它们可能暂时让你有某种感觉，但这种感觉绝不会持久或稳定。
They may make you feel something for the time being, but that's not gonna be a constant or consistent at all.
就是当下是什么样就是什么样，仅此而已，过后就没了。
It's just it is what it is in the moment, that's it, and then it's gone.
对。
Right.
这事儿没完没了，你想什么时候做都行，白天黑夜都行。
This is nonstop, and you can do it day and night or however you want.
我是说，我尽量让它一直开着。
I mean, I try to keep it on as much as I can.
那些我没开的日子，我压根没想过这事，直到我开始想它。
The days I don't, I never really thought about it until I thought about it.
你懂我的意思吧？
You know what I mean?
比如说，今天到底发生了什么？
Like, what's going on today?
我总是赶得太急了。
I've said such a hurry.
有些日子我根本就忘了。
It's like some days I just forget.
是的。
Yeah.
你明白的。
You know?
你就会这么做的。
You just do.
你知道这情况是怎么样的。
You know how it is.
有些日子你一醒来，就觉得手机上有事等着你，整个人瞬间就乱了套。
Some days you get up and it's like you just are immediately something's on your phone and you just like, everything goes AWOL.
没错。
Yep.
你懂的。
You know?
那会儿真是。
That was
火都烧到你这儿来了。
a fire spread out to you.
是啊。
Yeah.
天哪。
Oh, shit.
从来没停过。
Never stops.
不过呢。
But yeah.
好吧。
So okay.
咱们来聊聊书里别的内容吧。
Let's dig into some other stuff in the book.
好，来吧。
Let's do it.
我还想聊聊一些关于MDMA疗法的事。
And then I wanna talk about some MDMA therapy too.
我想深入讲讲这个，但先得谈谈书里的内容。
I wanna get into that, but I wanna get into something on the book.
我特别欣赏你的一点是，你谈到‘我们能用科学证明灵性确实有实际影响’时，那种兴奋劲儿。
One of the things that I loved about you was when I saw the excitement when you were talking about we can prove spirituality through science has this real effect.
对我来说，这简直是世界上最棒的事，我愿意为这个观点一直争论下去，我才不会坐在这儿说‘我有大量科学证据’。
To me, that's like the greatest thing in the world to hear because I'll fight that all day, I won't sit here and go, got all the science to prove it.
我并不是非得靠这个不可，但我希望从真正懂的人那里学到它。
I don't feel like I need to, but I want to learn it from somebody that does.
你明白吧？
You know?
我更多是带着对神同在的坚定信心在说话，但我同样需要科学的支撑。
I I speak more in the confident understanding of God's with me, but I want the science too.
我想听你讲，而且非你不可，没人比你更擅长把这些讲清楚了。
I wanna hear it and I want you because nobody is better ready to rattle that off.
所以，告诉我你发现了什么，好吗？
So tell me what you found, please.
嗯，这不只是我一个人的发现。
Well, so again, this is not this is not just what I found.
这是数百年的西方科学研究的综合成果，凝聚了无数前辈科学家的艰辛付出，他们和我有着同样的追求。
This is like a a synthesis of hundreds of years of Western science research that from backbreaking labor of of incredible scientists that came before me that were in search of the same mission.
对吧？
Right?
事实上，人类试图证明神的存在，可能已经持续了更久，甚至上千年。
Like, that arguably for even longer, for thousands of years, we've been trying to prove the existence of God.
小时候，我们很多人——包括我自己——都曾深深挣扎，对是否相信神感到困惑。
And, you know, growing up, many of us, myself included, I think, really struggle and wrestle with belief in God.
我小时候就听说神是存在的，那时候我还很小。
Because when you actually learn about like, I learned that God existed when I was a kid, a really little kid.
但后来我开始了解大屠杀的历史，每天在电视上看到战争，新闻里全是悲剧。
But then I started to learn about, like, Holocaust history and, like, like, started to see war on TV every day and, like, the news and, like, all the tragedy.
当世界上每天都有这么多可怕的灾难发生时，要相信神的存在，真的很难。
And it's, like, hard to believe that there could be a god when there is so much awful stuff that happens in the world every day.
我觉得很多人都有这种挣扎，只是我们很少公开谈论它。
And I think a lot of us wrestle with that but don't talk about it enough.
人们总觉得信仰必须是盲目的，但我不这么看。
And I think that there's this idea of faith that faith has to be blind faith.
我在书里重新定义了信仰：信仰其实有它的科学基础，它不必是盲目的，完全可以建立在认知、感受和倾听之上。
And I kind of reframe that in the book where there's actually a science of faith and that faith need not be blind, but it actually can be based on evidence of knowing and feeling and listening.
当我们静下心来，真正提醒自己：身体是安全的居所，我们就开始注意到周围那些暗示着某种更高存在真实性的迹象。
And when we listen, when we literally learn that our and to remind our our minds that our bodies are safe places to inhabit, then we start to listen to all of the signs around us that are evidence that God is real.
对吧？
Right?
或者你怎么称呼它都行。
And that or whatever you wanna call it.
对吧？
Right?
你不必非得叫它上帝。
You don't have to call it God.
你可以称它为本源，称它为神圣，或者用任何对你有意义的词。
You can call it the source, you can call it divinity, or you can call it whatever words work for you.
没错。
Mhmm.
但关键在于，我们会渐渐意识到，每一个当下都充满了灵性存在的深刻证据。
But the point is that we start to realize that there's profound evidence in every moment that that spirituality exists.
其实大部分时间我们只是心不在焉。
And it's really just that we're distracted most of the time.
我们根本没在听。
We're not listening.
可能是被手机分心了。
It could be distracted by your phone.
也可能是责任太多，压得喘不过气。
It could be distracted by too many responsibilities.
也可能是小时候别人告诉你，你的身体是个不安全的地方，这些想法一直缠着你。
It could be distracted by thoughts that your your body is an unsafe place to be because people told you that growing up.
对吧？
Right?
或者现在的创伤，甚至是从上一代传下来的。
Or trauma now even we know from past generations that gets passed down.
这些因素，还有无数其他事情，都在让我们听不见内心的声音。
Any of those things, infinite things distract us from listening.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我们逐渐意识到，在西方科学中，从我的角度来看，有些内容简直太精彩了——作为一名科学家、神经科学家，我会想：当你对身体抱有某种信念时，究竟会发生什么？
And so what we start to realize is that in Western science, and this is some of the coolest stuff from my perspective, what I think as a scientist, a neuroscientist, I start to think about like, well, what happens when you believe in something to the body?
对吧？
Right?
当你祈祷的时候，会发生什么？
What happens when you pray?
当你怀着感恩之心，仅仅因为自己还活着，就表达感激时，又会发生什么？
What happens when you express gratitude for being alive as a simple first step?
对吧？
Right?
当你开始测量人们的生理状态，发现他们表达感恩，或者真正抱有信念时——那种发自内心的信念，比如我相信某件事会发生，我相信自己，或者我相信一个真实存在的更高力量，而我本身就是其中的一部分——
And you start to realize that when you measure people's bodies and they're expressing gratitude or they're expressing active belief, like real belief, like I believe that something is going that I believe in myself or I believe in a higher power that is actually there and I'm actually a part of it.
或者当你祈祷时，真的相信你所祈祷的对象是真实存在的。
Or I pray as if I actually know that I'm praying to something real.
你去看看那些人的身体变化，真的会不一样。
And you actually look what happens to those people's bodies, their bodies change.
他们康复得更快。
They recover from illness faster.
寿命也更长。
They live longer.
心情也更愉快。
They are happier.
在做这些事的时候，他们的心率会明显下降。
They their their heart rates come down during the act.
对吧？
Right?
关于感恩的研究，我觉得特别有意思，因为感恩这东西实在太……我能在这节目里说脏话吗？
And the studies of gratitude to me because gratitude is so Can I swear on this show?
当然可以。
Yeah.
当然了。
Absolutely.
感恩真的太棒了。
Gratitude is so fucking fantastic.
因为它是一个正向循环。
Because it is a positive feedback loop.
对。
Yeah.
对吧？
Right?
就连科学研究也证实了这一点，只是我不明白为什么我们不多教这个，这也正是我写这本书的原因。
Like, even the science studies show this, that when you and I don't know why we don't teach this more, but this is again why I wrote this book.
当你实践感恩的时候，几千年来人们都知道这是真的，但西方科学却忽略了，因为最初它没经过双盲随机对照试验的验证。
It's like, when you practice gratitude, thousands of years of knowing that this thing is real, we forget in western science because it wasn't originally proven in double blind, randomized, placebo controlled trials.
但现在已经被证实了。
Now it is.
太好了。
Yay.
我们正在证明它是真实的。
We're showing it's real.
恭喜。
Congratulations.
但几千年来，我们早就知道，当你对任何事情心怀感恩时——感恩其实就是对好事说声谢谢，无论是你努力得来的，还是偶然遇到的，只要你留意到了好事。
But we've known for thousands of years, right, that when you practice gratitude for anything, which is gratitude is we can define gratitude as the act of saying thank you for something good, for noticing something good that could be earned or unearned.
对吧？
Right?
就是一些简单的好事，比如你现在还活着，能呼吸，感受到阳光洒在脸上，暖暖的，任何你能想到的小确幸都行。
Just something good, like just being alive right now, being able to take a breath, feeling the sun shining down on your face, and feel the warmth, and just anything, anything you can find.
当你对这些事表达感谢时，你会感觉更加感恩。
When you express thanks for that, you feel more grateful.
没错。
Absolutely.
当你长期心怀感恩时，就会逐渐展现出一种从容的气质。
And when you feel more grateful over time, you start to embody graciousness.
对吧？
Right?
这种从容，其实就是人们常说的耐心、慈悲、专注、淡然和谦逊。
And graciousness is like what people identify as patience, compassion, presence, inaction, humility.
对吧？
Right?
这些全都是我们高度推崇的、非常积极的人性品质。
All these, like, very positive human characteristics that we kind of up hold up as, very, very positive things.
它不仅能提升情绪，增强韧性，还能减轻压力和焦虑。
And, and that increases mood and that increases resilience, and it decreases stress and anxiety.
是的。
Mhmm.
现在，临床研究已经证实了这一点。
And we see this now in clinical trials.
当我们花时间不断练习，逐渐培养出温厚的气质时，这种气质就会慢慢变成一种自然的优雅。
And when we when we spend time practicing practicing this and we get to graciousness, then as graciousness over time becomes gracefulness.
而这种优雅，正是我们追求的最终状态。
And gracefulness is the goal state.
对吧？
Right?
真正优雅的人，懂得顺应自然的节奏。
To be graceful means to flow with nature.
就像李小龙说的，要像水一样。
Like as Bruce Lee said, it's like be like water.
对吧？
Right?
水在杯子里，就变成杯子的形状。
Water doesn't when water is in a cup, it becomes the cup.
水在溪流里，就变成溪流的样子。
When water is in a stream, it becomes the stream.
水不会进了杯子还问：我怎么在这儿？
It doesn't enter a cup and be like, why am I in a cup?
我不愿意待在这儿。
I don't wanna be here.
对吧？
Right?
水从来不会这样。
Water doesn't do that.
水只是在哪儿，就顺应哪儿的样子。
Water just is what it is wherever it needs to be.
如果我们和水一起在溪流里，还硬要对抗它，就会被冲垮。
If we are in a stream with water and we push back against it, we get overrun.
对吧？
Right?
那会很痛苦，最后你肯定会撑不住的。
And it's painful, and you eventually will die Yeah.
抗拒嘛。
Resisting.
对吧？
Right?
那样的话，你这一路都会很痛苦。
And it's you'll suffer the whole way.
这其实又回到了古老的东方哲学。
And this is, you know, again, going back to like ancient eastern philosophy.
所以，感恩就是顺应自然的节奏。
And so, gratitude is about like flowing with the flowing with the rhythm of nature.
而优雅，就是感恩——是对恩典的觉察。
And gracefulness is gratitude is the recognition of grace.
对吧？
Right?
它意味着意识到那些本来就存在的美好，不管我们是否配得上。
It's the recognition of good things that are there regardless of whether we earn them or not.
所以我们越是练习感恩，就会越有感恩之心，越有优雅的气质，也越接近那种内在的恩典。
And so it creates this feedback loop of the more we practice gratitude, the more gracious the more grateful we feel, the more gracious we are, and then the closer to grace we become.
恩典就是一种神圣的境界，这是一辈子的修行。
Grace is godliness, and it's a lifelong journey.
我们做得越多，就越能让身边的人也感受到感恩的力量。
And and the more we do it, the more it helps other people feel gratitude around us.
这就像一种向外扩散的能量波。
It's like an energy that ripples out.
现在科学研究已经证实了这一点。
And now studies have shown this.
对我来说，这太棒了，因为神经科学和灵性竟然能彼此呼应，说着同一种语言。
So it's like for me, this is so cool because it's neuroscience and spirituality coming face to face and being like, we're speaking the same language.
对吧？
Right?
我们真的能用数据证明这一切是如何发生的。
Like we actually can show how this works.
这简直太棒了。
That is so freaking cool.
确实如此。
Oh, it is.
真的太棒了。
It is so freaking cool.
生活不全都是恐惧、危险、保护、对抗和战斗。
It's not all about fear and danger and protection and and fighting and battles.
也不必非得如此。
It doesn't have to be.
对吧？
Right?
你真正关注的是什么？
It's just what are you paying attention to?
你是不是一直把注意力都放在坏事和危险上？
Are you paying attention to what's bad and what's dangerous all the time with your time?
因为你这一生能关注的东西时间是有限的。
Since you only have limited time on this earth to pay attention to anything.
还是你更愿意关注好的那一面？
Or are you paying attention to what's good?
是的。
Yeah.
对吧？
Right?
而这一点，是我们自己能掌控的。
And that is something that we have control over.
就像你刚才说的，大脑在很多方面都能主导结果，它是更强大的部分。
So like you were saying, the mind can govern the outcome in a lot of ways as the stronger part.
我们
We have
有决定注意力方向的力量。
the power to decide where our attention goes.
我现在偶尔会这么做，但花了我四十四年才明白这个道理。
Sometimes I do this now, and it took me forty four years to figure this out.
是的。
Yeah.
我也花了很久才想通。
It took me a long time.
顺便说一句，佩里，你也能把这事儿想明白。
Perry, been able answer this shit out too, by the way.
所以。
So
对你我来说，要明白这些，都得经历很多痛苦、犯很多错、走过很多弯路。
And and and and for you and me both, it take it takes a lot of suffering, a lot of mistakes, a lot of things to go through to figure this out.
但有时候，你只要静下来，把想法说出来，认真想想，就会觉得特别通透，比整天浑浑噩噩地过日子强多了，这也就是为什么时间这么重要。
But sometimes if you sit there and you say something out loud and think about it, it makes a hell of a lot more sense as opposed to just going through your day and and that's where that comes into time.
所以我非常看重时间，毕竟我曾经浪费过很多。
So I hold a high value on time, obviously, with I've lost
我们最宝贵的资产。
our most valuable asset.
就是它。
It's it's it.
买不到的。
You can't buy it.
也重来不了。
You can't recreate it.
一旦没了，就真的没了。
Once it's gone, it's gone.
彻底没了。
It's gone.
对吧？
Right?
所以，如果你算一算，花在友善、感恩、谦逊上的时间，跟花在焦虑、恐惧、自大、贪婪这些负面情绪上的时间相比——
So if you factor in the time that you spent being gracious, having gratitude, being humble as opposed to the time you were stressed, fear, cocky, greedy, all of these negative things.
保护自己。
Protecting yourself.
是的，不用承担责任。
Yes, non accountable.
然后你想想，浪费在这些事上的时间，你到底得到了什么，又伤害了谁。
And then you look at the time that you wasted doing that and what you got from it and who you hurt because of it.
再看看另一面：喜悦、从容，还有其他所有正面的东西。
And then you take the other side, the joy, the grace, everything else.
想想看，这些能让你的时间变得更充实。
Think about how that expands your time.
没错。
Exactly.
因为这样会让时间更有价值。
Because it makes it more valuable.
对。
Right.
让你更专注于当下。
It makes you more present.
所以，当你心怀感恩时，时间真的会变慢。
So time actually literally slows down in gratitude.
是的。
Yes.
真正能延长你时间的，只有你投入的品质。
You actually, that's the only way to increase your time is by the quality that you spend in
就在于此。
it.
没错。
Exactly.
对吧？
Right?
而你花在争执、焦虑或类似事情上的时间，会飞快流逝，还让你老得更快。
And the time you spend arguing or stressing or whatever, it makes it go like this and it ages you faster.
对。
Yep.
对吧？
Right?
如果我们能教人们一点点这个道理就好了，我平时就践行这些祷告中的美德，从不祈求金钱和各种物质东西。
So if we could just teach people a little bit of that, and I practice the prayer virtues, so I don't pray for all this money and all this everything.
我的意思是，那些东西其实都不重要。
I mean, do you you know, those things, they're insignificant.
如果你能真正掌握你所说的这些美德——谦逊、坚韧、毅力，这些才是真正延长生命的方式。
If you can get what you're talking about, all of these virtues, the humility, the perseverance, the endurance, all of these things, that's how you add the time.
这才是唯一能买到时间的方法。
That's the only way to buy the time.
对吧？
Right?
因为这才是真正让时间更有价值的方式。
Because it enhances it.
是的。
Yeah.
而且这其实正是书里的一些精彩之处，当你开始读的时候，就会发现他们提到的一个概念叫‘时间旅行’。
And and that's actually that's actually one of the there's these little gems in the book that come out as you as people, you know, start to read, they'll see that one of the things they talk about is like time traveling.
对吧？
Right?
但这种‘时间旅行’并不是指造出一台机器，让人能回到过去或前往未来。
And like time traveling is not about inventing a machine that allows us to go back a time or forward in time.
没错。
Right.
过去已经不存在了。
The past no longer exists.
未来也还没到来。
The future has not yet come to be.
所以它也不存在。
So it also doesn't exist.
我们唯一拥有的时间，就是此刻。
The only time we have is right now.
所以真正的问题是，如果你真想时间旅行，或者把这当成一种可能，那你想延长或拓展自己的时间，办法就是更专注于当下——因为唯一真实存在的，就是现在。
So the real question is if you want to time travel, then or you you want to consider that as a thing that could be, then if you want to if you want to grow your time or expand your time, the way to do that is to be more present in the moment, the only moment that exists, which is right now.
没错。
Yes.
对吧？
Right?
就是现在。
Right now.
我们越能安住于此刻，注意力就越少被过去或未来牵走。如果你的注意力总量是有限的，只有百分之百，那当这份注意力更多地集中在当下、集中在我们此刻的共处中时，你就能在当下吸收更多。
The more of us that is here right now, meaning the less of our attention is on the past or on the future, the more of our attention, if you only have a 100% of your attention as a finite resource available to us at any time, the more of that that's right here right now with us together, then the more we take in in the moment.
你在当下吸收得越多，这个时刻就越能延展、越慢下来。
The more we take in in the moment, the more the moment expands and slows down.
我在书里提出，爱因斯坦其实早就明白这一点，这也正是我所理解的相对论的核心：我们对时间的感知，取决于我们的状态和位置，而不仅仅是物理上的运动和位置。
And I argue in the book that Einstein actually knew this, and that is kind of the root of what I would consider the theory of relativity, which is our motion and position, not necessarily just physical motion and position that dictates our perspective of time.
这是我们的心理状态和注意力方向。
It's our mental motion and position.
如果我们的心思总停留在过去或未来，时间就会变快、变紧凑。
So if our mental motion and position is in the past or the future, time speeds up and contracts.
对。
Yeah.
如果我们的心思和情绪都安住在当下，时间就会拉长、变慢。
If our mental emotional position is our mental motion and position is in the present moment, time dilates and slows down.
我知道这不只是感觉，而是有科学依据的——很多接受迷幻药物治疗的人报告说，他们感受到强烈的感恩、更深的意义感和爱意，而这三点中最常见的一条就是：时间变慢了。
And the reason why I know this to be true is fit like, actually, actually scientifically true is because one of the most common reports of of people who take psychedelic medicines for therapy or for whatever purposes is that they've experienced dramatically increased gratitude, significantly increased meaning and love as two of the most common reports, and the third is that time slows down.
是的。
Yeah.
对吧？
Right?
这三者根本是紧密相连的。
Those don't exist independent of each other.
它们是同时发生的。
They exist at the same time.
感恩增加了，爱增加了，专注和意义也增强了，时间却变慢了。
Gratitude increases, love increases, presence and meaning increase, and time slows down.
这种现象并不仅仅是由致幻物质的分子作用引起的。
That is not an effect that is limited to a molecular action of a psychedelic substance.
这是我们可以通过自己的注意力主动创造出来的内在体验。
It is something that we can create ourselves endogenously with our own attention.
你这么说真是说到点子上了。
So you're like spot on there.
老式维生素G。
Old vitamin G.
前几天我还就这个做过一次演讲。
I gave a speech on it the other day.
没错，我确实做过。
I did.
我提到过，那才是关键所在。
I talked about 's the one thing that is the key.
是的。
Yeah.
就是这个关键。
The key.
如果你想达到全面的健康状态，我总说要把信仰放在第一位，但归根结底还是感恩。
If you wanna get in full health alignment, I I always say it's God first, but it comes down to gratitude.
心怀感恩，能改善心理状态，心理好了，身体自然也会跟着好。
The gratitude will fix the mental, which will then fix the physical.
我特别喜欢这个‘维生素G’。
I love vitamin G.
确实如此。
It is.
它带来的好处太多了
It has the great
这个东西买不到，得自己去培养。
one that you can't buy, you gotta create it.
你懂我的意思吧？
You know what I mean?
对。
Yeah.
这才是最好的。
That's the best.
它是免费的。
It's free.
它是免费的。
It's free.
是的。
Yeah.
最好的东西都是免费的。
The best stuff is free.
真的吗？
Really?
别逗了。
Come on.
真的是
It's really
确实是。
It is.
好吧。
Let okay.
所以我想说的是，我自己其实真的很想知道，你和我以前除了在播客里，从来没认真聊过这个话题。
So what I wanna do then, because I'm genuinely curious myself and you and I have never really gotten into this discussion other than on the podcast.
我们从来没谈过一些私密的事。
We never talked about some private stuff.
是的。
Yeah.
关于MDMA治疗，已经好几个人跟我提起过，都想聊聊，但我其实一直躲着这个话题，因为我打算先跟你讨论，再听别人说。不是说你就是权威，但你是我最信任、最想先请教的人。
So the the the MDMA treatments, like, I've had multiple people bring it up, wanna talk about it, and I honestly kinda, I I avoid the conversation because I wanna save it for talking to you first before I get into it because I feel like not that you're the end all be all, but I feel like you're the most that I trust and the most well versed that I want to learn from first before I go listen to anybody else's shit.
这确实像你的风格。
That's kinda you.
对。
Yeah.
这确实是我的舒适区，但我还是想听听你的看法，因为这话题每个人都有自己的说法。
It's my comfort zone, but I do want a little bit of insight on that because that is one of those topics that you're gonna get a million different viewpoints on.
你从来不会动不动就说‘这是政府干的’或者‘都是钱搞的鬼’。
And you're always good about never saying, oh, it's government this or money that.
你一向不是这样的人。
That's not your thing.
我特别欣赏你这一点，你总是实话实说。
And I love that about you because you just keep it real.
现在政府也支持了。
Now the government's on board.
你看看那个边境。
Well, you see the I the border.
我知道。
I know.
真让人惊讶。
It's amazing.
当年那个共和党政府在七十年代把它关闭，现在又给翻过来了。
The same Republican government that shut it down in the nineteen seventies just reversed it.
所以咱们看看这到底会怎样——真是不可思议。
So we'll see how that actually Well, it's crazy.
我们终于走到这一步，简直难以置信。
It's pretty incredible that we're finally getting there.
我第一个问题是，为什么当初大家对它有那样的看法？
My first question is, why was it something that was viewed a certain way?
其次，咱们聊聊它的益处吧，它是怎么起作用的，具体有什么效果。
And then secondly, let's just talk a little bit about the benefits, how it works, what it does.
给那些还不太清楚的人简单讲讲基础。
Just some basics for people that are wondering.
你一听到这个词，大多数人第一反应都是：天哪。
Because you hear that and most people are like, oh, shit.
他们可能想着去体验一下，却根本不知道那到底是什么，还以为是某种非法街头毒品。
I'm gonna go trip or whatever, and they don't even understand what it is, or they think it's some illicit street drug and everything.
你能不能详细解释一下？
Please break it down.
首先，'致幻'这个词根本不是指药物。
So first off, so psychedelic, the word psychedelic is is not about drugs at all.
它描述的是一种状态。
It's about a state of being.
'Psychedelic'这个词是奥尔德斯·赫胥黎创造的，就是《美丽新世界》的作者。
Psyche, psychedelic as a word was coined by Aldous Huxley and the, you know, the author of Brave New World.
对。
Yeah.
汉弗莱·奥斯蒙德，上世纪五十年代著名的医生，大概是1953年吧。
Humphrey Osmond, famous physician in nineteen fifties, 1953, I think.
他们创造了这个词，用来描述一种自然存在的状态，这种状态可以通过LSD、麦司卡林或其他致幻物质引发。
And they came up with this word to describe a specific state that is a natural state of being, but it's a state that can be induced by medicines like LSD or mescaline or other psychedelic molecules.
因为当时还没有一个合适的词来表达这个概念。
Because we didn't have a word that was appropriate at that time.
语言是活的。
And language is a living thing.
他们认为语言是活的，所以决定要找一个最贴切的词来形容这种体验。
They saw language as a living thing, and they said, we're gonna figure out the right word to describe this experience.
对吧？
Right?
他们清楚语言的局限性。
Knowing the limitations of language.
于是他们创造了‘psychedelic’这个词，‘psyche’在拉丁语里是‘心灵’的意思，‘delos’则是‘显现’或‘揭示’的意思。
And they developed this word psychedelic because psyche means mind in Latin, and delos means to show or to reveal.
所以，抛开药物不说，致幻状态其实就是一种让我们得以看清自己内心的状态。
So what psychedelic states are, taking a step back from drugs, psychedelic states are states of being where our mind is revealed to us.
明白了。
Okay.
对吧？
Okay?
这就是一切的起点。
So that's where it starts.
跟七十年代疯狂的舞会毫无关系。
And it has nothing to do with crazy seventies dance parties.
跟理查德·尼克松也没关系。
It has nothing to do with Richard Nixon.
跟越南战争无关。
It has nothing to do with the Vietnam War.
跟反主流文化运动也扯不上任何干系。
It has nothing to do with the countercultural revolution.
这跟一种存在状态有关，而这种状态是每个人与生俱来的。
It has to do with a state of being, and that state of being is innate to all human beings.
嗯，
Well,
我过去所知道的一切全都崩塌了。
it just everything I ever knew just got blown up.
对吧？
Right?
咱们先抛开所有政治和那些乱七八糟的东西。
So let's forget about all the politics and the bullshit.
把这些全扔一边，咱们回到语言本身。
Let's just throw that away, and let's come back to language.
对吧？
Right?
语言在这方面其实特别有帮助。
Language is is very helpful in that way.
所以每次我讲这个话题的时候，都觉得特别有意思。我一提到致幻剂，台下的人就开始凑近朋友，小声说：‘我从来没试过那玩意儿。’
So so, whenever I give lectures on this, I think it's really funny because I start talking about psychedelics, and I see people in the crowd being like, listen, leaning in, leaning into their friends, and they're like, I have never tried that.
然后我就说：猜猜怎么着？其实你早就体验过了——因为你做过梦。
And then I'm like, guess what, by the way, you already have because you've had a dream.
梦，其实是我们每个人最早经历的致幻体验。
Dreams are the very first psychedelic experiences we all have.
做梦的时候，到底发生了什么？
What happens when you dream?
白天那个一直保护着你、主导你自我认知和决策的自我意识，到了夜里觉得安全了，就放松下来，这时候，潜意识和无意识里的内容就开始浮上表面。
Your ego protective mind that's protecting us and involved in all of our self identity decision making stuff during the day feels safe enough to relax, and then all the material from our subconscious and unconscious becomes aware.
它们进入了你的觉知。
It enters awareness.
对吧？
Right?
这其实就是你的大脑在向你展示自己，因为你足够安全，藏在觉知下面的东西才敢冒出来。
That is our mind revealing itself to us because we're safe enough for what's underneath awareness to come out.
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