皮特·朱利安：执教世界顶尖选手

这不就是五公里吗。

That's just a five k.

这不过是十三分钟跑完五公里。

That's just a thirteen minute five k.

你非得做到这个程度不可。

It's that's what you have to do.

就是跑十二个400米，每个61到62秒，中间不休息，然后——

It's like 12 times 400 at sixty one sixty two with zero rest, and then Right.

对。

Right.

接着再跑个200米。

Then a 200.

你经常提到冠军赛，说要在这种比赛里冲得出来。

So you've referenced championship racing a lot and how you have to close well to to be in these championship races.

假设你生活在跟田径无关的世界里，就单纯做个计时赛。

So let's say that you're you live in a universe independent of racing, and you're just gonna time trial.

你就是单纯冲时间。

You're just gonna go for times.

明白吗？

Okay?

那你会调整训练方式吗？

Would you change your training at all?

会的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

大概吧。

Probably.

如果是男生的话，我会多做很多乳酸阈值训练。

I would do on the men's side, I would do way more threshold stuff.

好的。

Okay.

你看到这种情况，这就是为什么我们会有赛道成绩通胀，还有五公里之类的比赛。

And and you see that, and that's why we have the track inflation and the five k and forth.

因为现在有这么多大学，每周就只练两次阈值训练，然后他们就能去波士顿大学，轻松跑出漂亮的时间。

So because you have all these colleges that are just only doing double thresholds twice a week, and they can go out to BU and they can rip these time trials.

可一旦到了真正需要比赛的锦标赛或赛事，他们就完全不行了。

And then when it comes to any sort of championship or race where they actually have to race, they're just they can't.

他们知道该怎么跑。

They know how to do it.

对吧？

Right?

但他们撑不过这些轮次。

They can't get through these rounds.

他们组不成队伍，也达不到这些要求。

They can't make teams and these sort of things.

所以，如果你真的只想在计时赛里跑出好成绩，而且只看时间不看名次，那我确实会说，尽全力提升体能就行。

So, yeah, if you really if you just want to rip a time trial and just where if time meant everything and place meant nothing, then I would say just get as strong as you possibly can.

你没必要非得在最后52、53秒拼命冲刺。

You don't have to really worry about closing in 52, 53.

把那么多精力浪费在无谓的苦练上。

To put all that energy crap into ton of work.

与其跑11圈60秒2，最后一圈冲到58秒26，不如跑12圈半都保持在60秒1，这样能更好地提升有氧能力。

Do a crap ton of work, and just try to move that instead of going 60 twos for 11 laps and then going fifty eight twenty six, just try to go 60 ones for 12 and a half laps and your last lap, know, so you can just really build that aerobics.

但问题是，到了世界顶尖水平，如果你这么干，肯定会被人彻底甩开。

But the problem with that is at the world class level, if you're that guy, you're just gonna get absolutely freaking torched.

对。

Yeah.

他们会紧紧贴着你。

They're gonna sit on you.

他们会紧紧贴着你。

They're gonna sit on you.

所以至少在世界顶尖水平上，你必须……

So you you have to, at this, at least at the world class level.

现在，我觉得就连大学级别和D1级别的比赛里，你都能看出来。

Now, I think even you see it at the at the collegiate level and the d one level.

我的意思是，如果你最后冲不上去，根本没机会站上领奖台。

I mean, if you can't close, you're not getting on the podium.

所以你必须专门训练最后的冲刺能力。

So you you have to train for the close.

这得成为你训练计划里的一部分。

That's gotta be in your training.

必须得有，而唯一的方法就是从你平时做力量训练的时间里，挤出一点来。

Has to And if if you're in the only way to do that is you are going to have take away a little bit from that time that you're spending on your strength work.

对。

Yeah.

这挺有意思的。

It's interesting.

我之前跟一位参加过全国赛的大学生跑者聊过。

I was talking with a collegiate runner who he was at nationals.

他发挥得没达到自己的预期。

He didn't perform as well as he wanted.

我就问他，到底出了什么问题？

And I'd asked him, like, what happened?

你觉得是什么原因导致的？

Like, what do you think happened?

他说，我们根本没怎么练过高强度。

And he was like, we just never did any intensity.

他没说完全没练过，只是……

Like, we never did he didn't say never.

他说，我们练的强度不够。

He said we did we didn't do enough intensity.

我们就是一遍又一遍地练乳酸阈值。

Like, we just hammered threshold again and again and again and again.

这让他在今年早些时候表现得特别好。

And that made him perform really well early in the year.

但到了年底，他根本就没准备好参赛。

But then late in the year, he just, like, wasn't ready to race.

确实如此。

And Yeah.

那些孩子在面对布莱恩·克莱斯、蒙特·萨克斯和斯坦福邀请赛时，都会表现得特别出色。

Those kids will fly at your Brian Clays and your and your Mount Sacks and your Stanford invites.

那些孩子真的跑得飞快。

Those kids will fly.

但到了赛季后期，很多教练都会犯一个错误，就是开始加练强度。

But when it really comes into the late in the season, and a lot of coaches will make the mistake that they'll start doing the intensity.

明白了。

Okay.

好的。

Alright.

距离比赛还有四周了。

We're four weeks out.

咱们该开始提升强度了。

Let's start sharpening up and do intensity.

但如果你真不想让身体承受太大的压力，全年都应该少量多次地加入一些强度训练，让身体慢慢适应，对吧？

But if you really don't want it to be this toxic event for your body, you should really be having small doses of intensity throughout the entire year so that your body becomes adjusted and adapted to it, right?

这样做的确没问题。

It's okay to do that.

全年都进行速度训练，哪怕是在越野跑期间，也没问题。

It's okay to do speed work year round, even in cross country.

这些越野跑选手，过一两个月就转成田径选手了。

All these cross country runners are track runners just a month or two later.

做两百米、四百米的训练完全可以，就用轻松的速度，大概相当于一千五百米的配速就行。

It's okay to be do two hundreds and four hundreds at just a nice gentle speed pace that's maybe just a 1,500 meter pace.

你应该始终在整体训练计划里加入这些小剂量的强度训练，贯穿全年。

You should always be adding in these small dosages of your entire training system So throughout

所以，如果有人做一次大强度的乳酸阈值训练，比如六到八英里，中间休息一分钟，你会在训练末尾加几组两百米或四百米来维持这种感觉吗？还是说你会把这类训练安排在完全不同的日子？

the So would you say that you're if you have someone doing a threshold workout, big threshold workout, maybe six to eight miles, with a minute rest, that you're a fan of doing something like four hundreds or two hundreds on the tail end just to touch that, or is that something that you'd hit on a totally separate day?

这得看每个运动员和他们所参加的项目。

I that's individual for the athlete and what event they're in.

有时候我们确实会这么做。

Sometimes we'll do that.

通常我会尽量保持训练的能量系统一致。

Usually, I try to keep the fuel systems the same, generally.

如果我们练乳酸阈值，那就专心练乳酸阈值。

So if we're gonna be working on the threshold, we're just gonna be working on the threshold.

以前我可能会在最后加五组200米之类的。

I used to maybe add like, okay, five times 200 at the end or something.

现在我基本不这么做了。

Now I don't really do that anymore.

可能是因为我有几个运动员在练双阈值，我知道他们过五六个小时还得再来一次，而且48小时后还要做速度训练。

And maybe that's because just because of I do have a handful of athletes doing some double threshold that I know they're just gonna be coming back in five or six hours anyway, and we're gonna be doing a speed workout forty eight hours later.

这倒是个不错的例子。

And, yeah, here's a good example.

今天早上，咱们聊聊艾米丽的训练吧。

This morning here's a here's if we wanna talk about Emily's training.

她显然……

So she obviously She

她是跑800米的。

an 800.

如果你给我一周艾米丽的训练安排……

If you give me a week of Emily

艾米丽在洛杉矶的日落赛上刚跑了个1分58秒1。

Emily just ran an 800 at the Sunset meet in Los Angeles, one fifty eight one.

赛后她做了一组训练。

Afterwards, she did a a workout.

主要是提升最大摄氧量的，比如三次五分钟的长段落，强度比乳酸阈值稍高一点，但还没超过阈值。

It was more v o two based, some longer repeats, like three times, five minute type stuff, but just a little more aggressive, not faster than threshold.

对吧？

Right?

好的。

Okay.

她今天早上回来了，咱们今天就做八组一公里配速跑。

She came back this morning, and we're just gonna do eight times a k tempo.

对她来说，配速大概在每公里3分30秒到3分20秒之间，每组之间休息一分钟。

So for her, that's chill is anywhere from three thirty to three twenty per k off a minutes rest.

今天她就只做这个，别的都不用干。

She does nothing else today.

就这些。

That's it.

今天就安排这些了。

That's that's the day.

但如果你看过去72小时的训练量，其实已经不少了。

But when you look over the last seventy two hours, that's a lot of work.

对吧？

Right?

因为她比过赛，

Because she raced,

她

she

做了点赛后恢复。

did a little post race.

我的意思是，我平时已经很少做赛后训练了，但这次对艾米丽来说，就只是跑了800米。

I mean, she won't ever well, you don't I don't do a lot of post race workouts anymore, but this was just an 800 for Emily.

反正我们也没必要特地飞去洛杉矶，搞什么21%的高氧环境，对吧？

It's like, okay, we're not gonna fly all the way out to LA and get some actual 21% oxygen, you know, and do have all these

别让这些努力白费了。

Let it go to waste.

是啊。

Yeah.

至少得把这三天和花的这些钱的价值榨出来。

Like, let's at least get something out of the three days and all the money we spent on this goddamn thing.

所以我们只是做了一点训练，然后她接下来两天会休息，再过两天我们再练1500米的专项内容。

So, you know, so we'll we did a little work, but then she and then so and then but we'll come back in just two days, and then we'll do some 1,500 specific stuff.

也就是说，她周六比赛完之后，

So when you that's from she raced on Saturday.

比赛周六结束，当晚或者刚比完就直接练了一次。

So race Saturday, Saturday night or right after the race to a workout.

两天轻松跑，一天乳酸阈值跑，一天休息，再一天速度耐力训练。

Two days easy, threshold, one day rest, speed endurance.

这个训练安排挺不错的，对吧？

That's a pretty nice little block right there, right, of training.

对。

Yeah.

就像

Like

而且感觉挺好的，因为800米那场确实挺累的。

And Achieve feels good because nothing's the 800 was hard.

就这些了。

That was it.

这整个训练里，唯一真正吃力的部分就在这儿。

That's the only really hard piece of the whole thing.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得挺有意思的是，现在这种乳酸阈值训练突然流行起来了，确实很有效，尤其是对年轻跑者来说。十年前、二十年前，根本没人做阈值跑。

And I think it's interesting because the the threshold boom that I've kinda seen right now or that we're seeing, yes, it's effective, especially in these younger runners who ten, twenty years ago, you just you just didn't do threshold runs.

那时候也不做节奏跑。

You didn't do tempos.

大家做的全是最大摄氧量训练。

Everything you did was like a v o two max.

他们

And They

你就是拼命冲，一点不留余地。

just ran you hammered it.

你的五英里节奏跑直接把那帮小伙子打趴了，每次都是这样，而且一直都是这样。

Your five mile tempo has just hammered your boys, and that was Every and that was

你一直都是这样，从头到尾。

your first all the time.

对。

Yeah.

你的轻松跑配速才六分，所以我觉得，有一点我得提醒的是，当你做了太多阈值训练，有时候反而会难以真正拼尽全力——因为大家太习惯阈值训练了，虽然累，但从来不会到那种崩溃的地步。

Your easy runs And were six so I think, you know, one thing that I'm cautious with is that when you're doing so much threshold, I think there's almost like people struggle a little bit to hurt sometimes in in some of these situations where they're so used to doing threshold, which is, like, uncomfortable, but it's never it's never horrible.

其实我不讨厌阈值训练。

Like, I I don't mind threshold workouts.

我天天做都行。

I'll do them all day every day.

我甚至经常一天做两次阈值训练。

I I do double thresholds.

我也没觉得那么糟。

I don't feel that bad.

但你说得对，好吧。

But, you know, you tell me, like, alright.

我们要跑几组八百米，按三千米配速来拼。

We're gonna do some some eight hundreds hard at three k pace.

天哪，这可真够受的。

I'm like, oh, man.

这肯定特别难受。

That's gonna hurt.

我真的不想干这个。

Like, I don't wanna do that.

我在想，未来几年会怎样，毕竟训练节奏总是在变。

And I wonder if I wonder what will happen in coming years because as you know, things ebb and flow.

比如现在双阈值训练这么火，以后肯定会有别的方法重新流行起来，循环往复嘛。

Like, we'll go through this double threshold boom, some things will come back, it'll circle around.

至少我是这么想的。

At least that's my opinion.

我在想，VO2训练什么时候才会重新流行起来。

I'm wondering when the v o two trend will come back in vogue.

我觉得女性那边已经回来了。

And I think it already has for the women.

所以。

So

你真这么觉得？

You think?

是的。

Yeah.

接着说，多讲讲。

Go on, tell me more.

女性更需要多做VO2训练。

Women need to do more VO2 work.

我刚做了一个关于这个的播客，刚看完就上传了。

I just made a podcast on this, I just I saw it, uploaded it before

我还在想，你一个月前发的那个东西我看到了。

and I was thinking, well, I saw something you put out maybe a month ago.

对，就是那个，没错。

Yeah, that was yeah, yeah.

哎呀，真不巧。

And I was like, oh, darn it.

有些人已经开始注意到了。

There's some are catching on.

大家都知道了。

People know.

大家都知道了。

People know.

越来越多的人开始留意了。

People are catching on.

是的，确实如此。

Yeah, it's yeah.

当然了，听好了，这些并不是那些东西的运作方式。

Of course, hey, look, this is not these aren't ab these things work.

对每个人来说，情况都是这样的。

This is the way it is for everybody.

我们在这儿讨论的都是一些普遍现象。

These are general things we're talking about here.

我注意到，女性从更多的V02训练中获益更多。

General, I found that we women benefit more from more v o two work.

我发现，精英男性从更多的阈值训练中获益更多。

I I found that men, elite men benefit more from more threshold work.

对，没错。

It's Mhmm.

但仔细想想，这其实挺有道理的，因为女性天生更强壮，耐力更好，疼痛耐受力也更高。

But you it almost sort of makes sense because women are naturally stronger, they have more endurance, they have more pain tolerance.

你越看越久，就会发现比赛时间越长，男女之间的差距反而越小。

You can almost see it the longer the events go, it almost seems like there's more parity.

你看，就连这些一百英里的超马里，都有女性在最后十英里的速度超过男性。所以，只要从这个角度看，女性确实更强壮、更坚韧、耐力更好、更持久。

You know, you've got, even in these 100 milers, you've got these women who are running faster over the last 10 miles than the men are, and these So it's just if you just look at it through that lens, women are stronger, tougher, have more endurance, more sustainability.

男性更偏向爆发力和力量，像猎人那种类型；而女性则需要更多地训练耐力和忍痛能力这些方面。

Men have to be more men are more explosive and powerful and hunter, those sort of things, whereas men have to work more on their endurance, their pain tolerance, these sort of things.

这当然是个很笼统的说法，不过我不打算透露太多训练细节，但至少我可以肯定地说，我们队里的女性做的有氧耐力训练，比男性多得多。

And that's a really general way to look at it, but I'll say that without giving too much of our training away, actually, I won't even talk too much of the specifics, but I think that's at least I would be comfortable saying that is our women do much more VO two work than the men do, or the men on their team.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

说起来，我这里正好有一篇论文，我想说一件事。

And it's it's you know, like, one of the things I find interesting, what I was gonna say interject there is, like, I have a paper right here in front of me, and I'll tell you this.

数据显示，女性的乳酸阈值通常出现在最大摄氧量的85%左右，而男性的阈值则大约在82%。

In women, their lactate threshold tends to occur at about eighty five percent of their VO2 max whereas in men their threshold tends to occur at about 82% of their VO2 max.

男性虽然最大摄氧量更高，但女性的跑步效率却比男性更好。

Now men have higher VO2 maxes but in the same breath women are more economical than men.

这正是我认为的原因之一，我也想听听你的看法：据我观察，很多非顶尖的大学生女跑者都相当出色。

And this is one of the reasons why I think that and I'm curious to hear what you think on this, is that in my observation, anecdotal observation, there's a lot of sub elite and collegiate runners that are females.

她们的轻松跑配速，有时候甚至比队里的男队员还快。

Their easy runs sometimes will be faster than the men on the team.

我不知道你有没有见过这种情况，或者至少速度差不多。

I don't know if you've ever seen that or they'll be similar.

我经常开玩笑说。

I joke all the time.

我会告诉队里的男生，别在轻松跑的时候跟女队员一起跑，她们跑得太快了。

I tell my guys never to even run with the women on the team for their easy days because they run too fast.

她们真的跑得太快了。

They run too fast.

没错。

Right.

没人愿意跟可可·克洛斯特一起跑，我去过那边。

Nobody wants to run with Coco, Constance Closter, I've run over there.

或者西奥凡·阿桑。

And, or Siofhan Asan.

那时候 guys 就都知道了，就连 NOP 时代，莫·费雷尔他们都说，我可追不上西奥凡·阿桑，跟她一起跑根本跟不上。

Like, the guys knew back then, even back in the NOP days, even Moe Ferrer, these guys were like, I'm not running with Siofhan Asan, I can't keep up with her on the

当年她的轻松跑配速是多少？

East What was her easy run pace back in the day?

哦，轻松跑都能跑进六分钟以内。

Oh, they would be sub six, sub six minute mile pace.

就连可可，我都得让她慢点。

Even Coco, I had to get Coco to slow down.

她轻松跑的时候，随便就能跑进六分钟。

She's she'll go sub six easy on her

轻松跑。

easy run.

是不是那种情况，你心里想，算了。

Is is that one of those situations where you were like, look.

运动员自己喜欢就行。

It's what the athlete likes.

既然有效，那就继续吧。

It's working for him.

我们就保持现状。

We're just gonna keep it.

每个运动员都不一样。

It's different for every athlete.

我觉得后来，连可可也明白了，那种年轻时的野性劲儿，对长期职业生涯未必是好事。

I think at some point, we had and Coco learned that that was just that that youthful feralness was probably not going to be great for a long career.

但我确实觉得，C级水平和海拔高度是两回事。

But it's I certainly believe that there is is C level altitude are two different things.

我觉得如果你的训练项目属于C级水平，轻松跑时稍微接近杰克·丹尼尔斯的配速，应该也行。

I think if you're a program that's at C level, I think you could probably get away with running closer to those Jack Daniel paces for your easy run.

因为大多数顶尖跑者，要是读过杰克·丹尼尔斯的书，都会跑去试着跑出书里那种轻松配速。

Because as most elite runners, if you read the Jack Daniel's book, you would go out and try to hit those sort of easy run paces.

感觉这速度有点太快了。

Like, this feels a little too fast.

确实太快了。

They're too fast.

对。

Yeah.

我明白你的意思，但我不同意。

I see, I would disagree.

我觉得你得找找那本书。

I think, know how you're gonna look for that book.

我有这本书，

I got the book,

就在这儿。

it's right here.

我觉得杰克其实说得对，你真得学会跑这些配速，到了平原地带你肯定没问题。

I think that Jack was actually right, and I think that you need to learn to run those paces, and I think you're gonna be okay at sea level.

真正变得特别棘手的是在高原地区，或者当你做了大量高强度训练，身体已经特别疲劳的时候。

Where it gets all real crazy is if you're at altitude, or maybe if you're doing a lot of high intensity stuff that's really making you fatigued.

当然原因有很多，但我觉得他更接近真相，因为我越看顶级选手的比赛，越是在钻石联赛现场，看到那些世界顶尖运动员，他们根本不会慢跑。

Course, there's a lot of reasons, but I think he was actually more on it than because the more I see at the world class level, when I'm at these meets at these Diamond Leagues, and I see these athletes who are actually in these, you know, it's the best in the world, they don't run slow.

真的不会。

They don't.

他们轻松跑的时候，速度其实很快，这根本不是什么大事，比如加伦·鲁普，他轻松跑就是很快。

Don't Like, run they're easy they're they run, and and it's it's not a big deal for I mean, Galen Rupp, easy.

他的慢跑配速是每公里5分41秒到5分45秒。

His jog was five four one five forty five pace.

他每周肯定跑140英里。

Seguro, he'll run a 140 miles a week.

我猜在高强度训练之后，他才会真正放慢，比如特别累的那天，但平时自然就保持在每公里5分40秒到5分30秒的配速了。

I'd say he's averaging maybe after a hard workout day, he'll really just go slow, like a really big sort of day, but it just naturally just turns into five forty, five thirty pace.

就是这样

It's

这真有意思。

so that's so interesting.

我跟乔·克莱克尔聊过，他说，虽然他在高海拔地区，但他的轻松跑配速大概在六分三十左右，所以到了海平面可能更快。

I did talk with Joe Klecker, and he said he granted, he's at altitude, that his easy run pace was, like, closer to six thirty, so maybe at at sea level.

你知道的。

You know,

到了海平面，配速自然会降下来。

it creeps down there.

对每个人都是这样。

For everybody.

百分百如此。

100%.

很明显，乔现在的方法对他很有效。

I it it what's obviously, what Joe is doing is working for Joe.

我的意思是，他刚跑了两个零五左右的马拉松成绩。

I mean, he just ran two zero five or something for the marathon.

是的。

Yeah.

波士顿跑出的两个零五。

Two zero five in Boston.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Mhmm.

每个人的情况确实都不一样。

So it it's definitely everybody's different.

我见过一些女选手，比如乔丹·阿赛巅峰时期，平时慢跑就是六分零五到六分十的配速。

But I've seen some women, Jordan Asay would run when she was at her prime, it was just her regular conversational jog, six zero five to six ten days.

所以，你真不该剥夺这种有氧能力，这简直就是超能力，对吧？

That's So, you wouldn't really want to take away that aerobic, that's kind of a superpower, right?

如果你能以那种速度完成所有训练量，那真的就是——你知道的，我们那时候根本不管乳酸，虽然它肯定存在，但十几年前我们根本不用管这些。

If you can go out and you can do all your volume at that sort of speed, and it truly is, it's, you know, we, you know, we didn't have lactate, I'm sure they were around, but we weren't using them back in, you know, ten, fifteen years ago.

我跟你说个有趣的事。

I you know, well, here's a funny story.

你听了可能会觉得挺怪的。

This is you'll think this is weird.

科斯特，就是那个Coco的科斯特，大家都认识她。

So Constance Coster of Coco, everybody knows her by.

她作为德国运动员，德国人嘛，什么都测，生理指标全都要检查测量，他们给她做了全套的VO2测试，连乳酸水平都测了，所有数据都拿出来了。

So she had run the German athlete and they'll test everything, Germans, you know, every it's every component of your physiology, they'll test and measure, and so they had built out this whole, you know, she did a full VO two test, but with her lactate, everything in there, saw all the numbers and these things.

他们坚持认为她的乳酸阈值配速大概是每公里3分20到3分25秒。

And they were willing to die on a hill that her threshold pace was about five per k three twenty to three twenty five per k.

对吧？

Right?

那就是她的乳酸阈值配速。

So that was her were her lactate threshold.

明白吗？

Okay?

所以我们得出这个正常值

So we got this to norm

这听起来挺可信的。

that's that seems that's believable.

这还挺正常的。

It's kinda normal.

好的。

Okay.

说不定还要更快一些。

It might even be it might even be faster.

比尔，你来解释一下这个。

So, Bill, explain this, though.

做完这些测试大约三周后，她参加了一场半程马拉松，首秀跑出了1小时05分。

So after they did all this testing, about three weeks later, she ran a half marathon and she ran one zero five debut.

每场比赛就三分钟。

That's three minutes per game.

所以对不上号。

So it doesn't line up.

唯一的就是。

The only yeah.

我只能推测，他们的测试方法不合适，或者

The only thing I can figure is that their test wasn't appropriate or

他们测了好几次，结果都是一样的。

they tested a couple times and it was right.

得看看原始数据和测试方案。

Would just need to see the data and the protocol.

不过，有时候你能注意到一点，比如我做过乳酸阈值训练和乳酸阈值测试，是在跑道上和跑步机上都试过。

But, you know, one of the things that you can see sometimes, so for example, I've done lactate threshold training or last lactate threshold testing on the track and the treadmill.

在跑道上做的话，数据往往会偏高。

And when you do it on the track, you can get some really inflated numbers.

这部分是因为你在跑道上只能待在固定的位置。

And part of that is because you're constrained to your position on the track.

所以你没法做三分钟的间歇跑。

So you can't do a three minute rep.

我是说，你当然可以，但那样就得一直绕圈跑，你知道的，效果也不太好。

I mean, you could, but then you're running around and, you know, it's it's And you

而且跑道上还有一些因素，比如会干扰测试结果。

have elements too on the track that are well, throw things off a little bit.

对。

Yep.

没错。

Yep.

是的。

Yeah.

有意思的是，我之前在跑道上测试一些人的时候，他们的乳酸阈值高得吓人。

So interestingly, when I tested some people on the track, their their thresholds were oh my gosh.

我想说大概是五分多钟的样子。

I wanna say like like five o something.

结果他们跑八公里的时候，速度反而比阈值测试时还慢。

And they ended up running their eight k at a slower pace than what their threshold tested.

对吧？

Right?

相反，前几天我在跑步机上遇到一个人，他的静息乳酸值居然只有2。

Now conversely, I had I'd have people I had a guy on the treadmill the other day and his resting lactate was like two.

我当时就纳闷，这是怎么回事？

And I was like, is going on?

通常我们说，血乳酸开始明显上升的点是在4。

And his the onset of blood lactate accumulation is usually we say that's four.

对吧？

Right?

一般到了4，就会看到人的表现开始下滑。

Usually at four, you start to see people like cut upwards.

但他呢，连续两三个阶段都维持在五左右，然后才突然上升。

But in him, his, like he was at, like, five for, like, two or three stages, and then he cut up.

我让他做了充分的热身。

And I had him do an adequate warm up.

他也不是吃了那种超高碳水的餐食。

He wasn't it's not like he had, like, this insanely carb rich meal.

有些因素确实会影响结果。

Some of that stuff can influence it.

这事儿挺奇怪的，我也挺意外的。

And, you know, it was it was just weird and surprising.

我觉得乳酸检测和乳酸代谢有一件事很重要——你大概也会同意——第一，每个人都不一样；第二，环境因素很关键。

And so I think one of the things about lactate testing and lactate metabolism is that and you'll probably agree with this, is that, a, everyone's different, and, b, context matters.

每个人都不一样，环境因素也很关键。

Like, everyone's different and context matters.

作为生理学家，我觉得乳酸检测的一大问题在于，很多情况下这些环境因素根本没被控制好。

And I think one of the issues I see as a physiologist behind all of this lactate testing is that context is often not controlled in a lot of these settings.

你知道，这些运动员并不会精确到每个星期二都吃完全一样的东西——当然有人会，但总的来说，情况各有不同。

You know, you don't these athletes aren't dialing their diet to the point where they're like, before on every Tuesday, I eat exactly this or I I have I mean, some do, but by and large, there's variants.

对吧？

Right?

情况各有不同。

There's variants

就连他们前三天的训练情况，你都没法完全控制。

You can't even control for the training that they did the three days before everything.

没错。

Exactly.

确实如此。

Exactly.

所以当有人说，我必须达到2.5，或者必须达到2.7，或者得在3到4之间，

So when someone's like, oh, I have to hit two five or I have to hit two seven or I've gotta be three to four.

我就想，归根结底，这只是一个参考数据，你总不会单凭心率来安排训练强度吧。

I'm like, at some point, like, it's it's it's a it's a piece of information, but you would never prescribe intensity based on heart rate.

你不会跟艾米莉说，

Like, you'd never be like, hey, Emily.

你心率到180了，

Your heart rate's one eighty.

得把400米配速放慢点。

You need to slow down on those mile pace four hundreds.

你肯定不会这么干。

Like, you wouldn't do that.

我觉得我们现在对乳酸阈值测试，有点走得太远了。

And I think we're starting to get to the place with lactate threshold testing where we're towing that line.

说到底，你就去跑吧。

And at some point, I'm like, look, just go run.

你清楚自己的比赛配速。

You know what your race pace is.

直接按比赛配速跑就行。

Like, go run race pace.

如果目标就是跑比赛配速，就别总盯着乳酸值了。

If the purpose is to run race pace, stop worrying about the lactate.

所以，总之，这就是我简短的看法。

And so anyways, that's my quick not piece.

你说得对。

You're right.

我们确实活在这样的状态里。

We it's we live it's

人们

people

总是

strike are

在努力

working

我

me

作为一个世界级选手。

as someone world.

那可是完全靠乳酸撑着的。

That would live and die on lactate.

绝对不是。

Absolutely not.

当然不是。

No.

绝对要。

Absolutely Do

用它吗？

use it?

你会检测乳酸水平吗？

Do you test it?

我们会。

We do.

是的。

Yes.

我们会用。

We do.

男性比女性用得更多。

The men use it more than the women.

我们当然不是完全依赖它，但确实会使用。

We are not a slave to it by any means, but we do use it.

在高海拔和天气特别热的时候，它的效果特别好，能帮你更好地控制强度。我经常用乳酸阈值来避免你在接下来两三天的高强度训练中过度透支。

It's it's really great at altitude and when it gets really hot because you can certainly can it helps you control your I'm always using threshold lactate almost more of like, I don't want you screwing yourself for the intensity stuff we're doing in two days or three days.

哦。

Oh.

这就像是要控制住他们，别让他们跑到八、九、十的强度。

Because It's almost like hold them back, like, don't don't wanna see them eight, nine, 10.

对。

Yeah.

比如我有个队员叫萨姆·阿特金斯，他想跑出12分55秒的5公里成绩，那我得让他做10组800米，从每组2分06秒开始，逐渐降到2分钟整，组间休息2分钟。

I I need if I have a guy like Sam Atkins who's trying to run twelve fifty five or five k, like, I, you know, like, 48, bud, we gotta do 10 times 800 starting at two zero six down to two flat off a two minute.

所以如果你在这儿瞎练，把乳酸阈值练得太猛，反而没法完成后面真正需要的训练，这就是我用这个方法的主要原因。

I so if you're out here screwing around and doing this threshold too hard and we can't actually do the stuff that we need to do to really get you ready for that specific so that's more of where I use it.

然后我觉得这招挺绝的。

And then I thought crazy.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得在高原和高温环境下特别有用，因为高温会让数据偏高，高原环境也一样会影响表现。

Well, I think that's really helpful at altitude and with the heat because we know that heat is gonna potentially inflate it at an even intensity and then also altitude up.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

在高原上，你根本没法准确判断他们在海平面时的乳酸阈值。

At altitude, you're not gonna know exactly what their threshold is at sea level.

所以就算你心想，你看。

And so even if you're like, look.

我知道你能跑个半马，65分钟，平均每公里3分钟，之类的。

I know you can go run, I don't know, in a half marathon 65, and that's three flat per k or whatever.

在高海拔地区，这成绩其实不差。

That that's not bad at altitude.

情况不一样。

It's different.

所以我喜欢把它当成一个参考指标，或者速度的标尺，比如说：好吧，

And so I like the idea of using that as a barometer or like a speed gauge of like, alright,

这就像我们的限速器，我们就是这么用的。

It's too our governor and that's what we use it for.

这对塞古鲁特别有帮助，我觉得今年他取得重大突破，原因之一就是这个训练方式让我们能以合适的配速多做些训练，让他真正能完成那些极其严酷的马拉松专项训练。

And it's been great for Seguru, and I think it's one of the reasons he had the big breakthrough this year, is that it allowed us to just get some more work in at appropriate pace so that he could actually do his specific marathon stuff, which is absolutely brutal.

对。

So Mhmm.

WACC阈值、双阈值这些方法，在马拉松训练中效果不错。

The WACC threshold, double threshold, and those sort of things can work well for marathon training.

对。

Mhmm.

但真的没法专门训练自己连续跑上两个小时到精疲力尽。

But there's no there's really no way to train for just running your ass off for two hours.

这是一项极其残酷的赛事。

It's such a brutal event.

你必须足够坚韧，能扛住比赛本身的残酷，而双阈值训练根本达不到那种程度——毕竟他每公里配速2分56、2分57，跑完41甚至42公里，中间完全不休息，我们之前聊5公里的时候也提到过这一点。

You have to be so hardened to the realities of the event that you actually have to train for that, and double threshold training isn't going to ever get you there just in terms of how brutal it is of an event at that level and how hard you're going because, you know, he's averaging two fifty six, two fifty seven a k times 41 or whatever it is, 42 with no So we we talked about that with the five k, right?

12乘以461，所以他跑的是

12 times 461, so he's doing

这样。

this.

没有停歇。

No rest.

那你怎么训练这种强度？

How do you train for that?

今天的训练就是跑42次一公里，每次配速2分57秒，中间不休息。

Well, do you train for today's workout is 42 times a k and two fifty seven with zero rest.

走吧。

Let's go.

对吧？

Right?

所以，任何双阈值训练都不可能让你达到这种水平。

So you can't there's no double threshold workout that's gonna get you there.

那该怎么办？

So what do have to do?

你得做一些非常激烈、近乎疯狂的训练，说实话。

You have to do some pretty intense, insane things, honestly.

这就是为什么马拉松如此不可思议。

That's why the marathon is just so incredible.

跑马拉松时，鞋子的缓震效果影响很大，不只是提速的问题。

The recovery is the shoes make a big difference in the marathon, not just the speed.

我说的不是碳板，就是单纯讲缓震性能。

I'm not talking about the plate, I'm just talking about the cushioning.

对吧？

Right?

现在训练完，身体不像十年前那样被折腾得够呛。

You just don't get beat up from the training like you might have ten years ago.

最多就是有点酸痛而已。

Just sound sore.

没错。

Yep.

你提到这点挺有意思的。

You know, it's it's interesting you bring that up.

我去年秋天和今年春天都跑过马拉松，但我真的不喜欢跑马拉松。

I ran a marathon this past fall and spring, and I hate the marathon.

我体型太大了，不适合跑马拉松。

I'm too big for it.

但我不是说我不行，只是以我的体型，跑马拉松肯定不如跑一英里那么出色。

But I'm not I'm too big for it to be as good at the marathon as I am at something like the mile.

不过我注意到，说起来有点科学，但长时间的冲击带来的离心负荷，真的把我的腿给熬垮了，就在比赛当天。

So what I noticed though is that the, this is a little scientific, but the eccentric loading just from all the pounding cooked my legs on the day of the race.

因为我们到现在还没完全弄清楚，为什么人在马拉松里会疲劳。

Because we we still don't fully know why people fatigue in a marathon.

你的血乳酸水平其实并不高。

Your blood lactates aren't that high.

你的心率也没那么高。

Your heart rate's not that high.

我们知道肯定会有肌肉损伤，但按理说，你本该能撑住这种状态。

We know you're gonna have some, like, muscle damage, but in theory, you should be able to sustain that.

至于能量补给，现在也不该是问题了。

And then there's a fueling shouldn't be a problem anymore.

所以理论上，剩下的可能性就只有神经疲劳，或者某种中枢调控机制，又或者是肌肉内部的某种认知或结构问题。

So then in theory, you're just left with either some neural fatigue or some, like, central governor, like some kind of cognitive or structural issue in the muscle.

我一直在想，从科学家的角度来看，肌肉的结构问题确实值得深入研究。

And one of the things I thought about is the structural issue seems to be, to me as a scientist, something to to think about.

这听起来有点疯狂，但我曾考虑过，是否可以在马拉松训练前先做些离心负荷训练——我知道超马跑者已经开始这么做了。

And so one of the this is crazy, but one of the things I thought about as a potential marathon primer, and I know ultramarathoners have started doing this, is almost some, like, eccentric loading prior to marathon work.

你可能听过有人先做些预疲劳训练，再以配速跑步，模拟双腿疲惫时的跑步状态。

So you've probably heard people using some kind of pre fatiguing bout and then going into a workout at at pace to kind of simulate the idea of running on tired legs.

我一直在想，能不能先做些负重下蹲之类的训练，然后直接跑公里间歇或英里间歇，保持马拉松配速，或者跑些下坡路，让自己提前感受到肌肉的结构性疲劳，再正式开跑。

And one of the things that I I thought about was, like, I wonder if I could do some, like, negatives and then go run Ks at marathon pace, or mile repeats at marathon pace, or some downhill running to put you in a place where you're feeling that structural fatigue, and then go run.

比尔，你这次又抓到重点了。我们确实这么做过——我总共只带过两名马拉松选手，西古鲁，还有另一个叫克里斯·马克森的，他首马就跑出了2小时10分。

Bill, once again, you're barking up the right tree here, because one of the things that we've done, at least, I've only coached two marathoners, Siguru, and then this other guy, this Chris Maxson, who debuted at two ten.

我知道克里斯·马克森。

I know Chris Maxson.

他以前在HPAC训练过。

He used to train with HPAC.

你带过克里斯·马克斯森训练？

Train Chris Maxson?

是的，没错。

Yeah, yeah.

克里斯是我带的学员。

Chris is my guy.

人特别棒。

Just a wonderful guy.

我很喜欢

Love

带他训练。

coaching.

我以前和克里斯一起练过。

Worked I've worked out with Chris before.

他以前住在北卡罗来纳州。

He used to live at here in North Carolina.

他当时在帮布兰登·哈根斯做 HVAC 相关的工作。

He was working with Brandon Hudgens and doing at HVAC.

真够巧的。

That's a small world.

就是

Just

一位特别棒的年轻小伙子。

a wonderful young man.

我总共只带过两个人，但我们经常做的一件事是，附近有个特别好的坡，我们叫它老舞台坡，左手指峡谷。

So I've only coached two, but what we certain one of our that we do quite often is we have this great hill, we call it Old Stage, Left Hand Canyon.

它在波尔德，但离这儿大概四英里远。

It's in Boulder, but it's about four miles down.

往下走一段，就会进入波尔德山谷。

It's like down and then it takes you into that Boulder Valley.

我觉得坡度大概在百分之三到四，有时候能到百分之五。

But I would say the the grade is probably three or four, sometimes 5%.

但我都会开车把他们送到山顶，然后他们一路跑下五六英里，不停地往下跑，开始进行马拉松配速训练。

But I will we'll start I'll drive them all the way to the top, and they'll run five or six miles down, down, down, down, they start this marathon tempo.

马拉松配速？

The marathon tempo?

哦，这可不是为了准备波士顿马拉松。

Oh, And that's not even to get ready for Boston.

也不是为了别的，就是因为你得能扛得住这种强度。

That's not to get it's just any because you have there's something to that where you have to be able to handle that.

这种感觉就是——

It's that

下坡的时候冲击力特别大，根本受不了——

There's a pounding there's a pounding can't

往下冲的时候。

down something.

对。

Yeah.

你没法用别的方法来模拟这种效果。

You you can't mirror that any other way.

唯一别的办法就是跑十八到二十英里，但那样的话，你的恢复就彻底完了。

The only other way to do it is to run 18 to 20 miles of x, and at that point, your recovery is screwed.

所以这就像是——

So it's like

另一个不错的方法是，长跑结束后马上去做深蹲。

Another good

我一直在想该怎么表达这个。

way struggled to to think about this.

那你再说说你的其他方法。

So tell me your other way.

长跑完之后，直接去健身房做些重量较大的奥林匹克式深蹲和跳跃动作。

Another good way is after long runs, immediately go do squats.

就是那种挺重的深蹲和跳跃训练。

Head right finish at the gym and do do, like, some some pretty heavy Olympic style squats and jumps and those things.

就是那种爆发力训练

Like, plyometric type

爆发性动作？

explosives?

不是。

No.

其实是用比较重的重量。

Actually, like, with some heavy weight.

用重量？

With weight?

天哪。

Oh my god.

是的。

Yeah.

如果你跑了22英里，最后就该去杠铃下做点实际的动作。

After if you do a 22 mile run, you finish off with getting underneath the rack and actually doing something.

基本上，做一些负重训练。

Basically, some negatives.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Mhmm.

没错。

It's Yes.

所以你是在告诉我，我真的很高兴你提到这一点。

So you're you're just teaching that I'm so glad body you're saying that.

为了

To

让身体学会适应，这其实就是关于适应，对吧？

Teaching that body to to expect some things you're you're having it's all about adaptation, right?

我的意思是，我们做的每一件事，人体和生理机能都是在一点点地适应。

I mean, everything that we try to do, everything about our human body and our physiology is adapting in micro doses.

这正是达尔文会说的：适应，否则死亡。

It's, right, it's what's the, what a Darwin would say, adapt or die.

其实我们在任何田径项目中都是这样，得先想清楚：为了这个项目，我需要做出哪些调整？

That's really what we're doing with any track event is you sort of look at what sort of adaptions do I need to make for this event?

然后怎么把这些调整拆成一小步一小步，让我能慢慢适应，又不至于被压垮？

And then how do I give it to myself in these small little doses so that I can adapt to it and not die from it?

对吧？

Right?

如果你长期这样坚持下去，状态一定会越来越好。

And if you do that over a long period of time, you're gonna be in a better spot.

所以这其实跟普通田径教练的视角不太一样，更像是从工程角度，或者从人体生理学的角度来看：好吧，

And and so it's really almost looking at it in a different way from just the track coach lens, but really looking at almost from an engineering standpoint or just maybe understanding human physiology and just say, okay.

我们举个例子，比如四分钟跑完一英里。

We talked about a good example of that is the four minute mile.

其实就是四个四百米。

It's four times 400.

那我们就叫它吧

Well, let's call it

不休息，全力冲刺

a No rest.

不休息，60秒

No rest and 60.

对吧

Right?

现在你去任何一所高中，大概都能找到一百个能跑进400米60秒以内的学生

Now, you can go to any high school and you can probably find a 100 guys in that high school that can run under sixty seconds for a 400.

他们穿的运动短裤什么的，都一样

And their gym shorts, whatever.

对吧

Right?

四分钟跑完一英里的速度要求，并没有那么难

The speed component of the four minute mile is not that hard.

好的。

Okay.

所以他们已经有足够的速度跑进四分钟，但别光从田径教练的角度看，咱们换个角度，纯粹从工程角度想想：好吧。

So they have enough speed to run the four minute mile, but then instead of looking at it from the instead of the track coach perspective, look at it just from a purely engineering thing and say, okay.

数学上，既然有一百个孩子都能跑进60秒，说明他们速度够跑四分钟，可怎么才能让他们连续跑四次，中间不休息呢？

Mathematically, how would I get you got a 100 kids that can all break 60, so they're fast enough to run a four minute mile, but how do I actually be able to get them so they can do four of them with no rest?

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Right?

你慢慢就能发现，其实这事儿几乎能算出来，几年下来，大概只有两个孩子能真正做到。

You just, you start to, you can almost mathematically plan that out, and you get to the point where probably two of those kids are gonna be able to do it over the course of a couple years.

所以他们得轻松跑出60秒，那跑227秒肯定不在话下，还得大量练，一百米和12秒也得稳住。

And that's, okay, well, they gotta be able to run sixties easy, so they sure as hell better be able to run 227, and they gotta do a lot of those, and they better be able to run their hundreds and 12.

要是真想连续跑四次460米，那两分钟的800米也得练得轻松点，至少得能连着跑四个。

And gosh, if they're gonna be out there for four times four sixty, man, we better try to make the two minute 800 kind of easy, so maybe they should at least try to do four of those.

你可以先从一个起点开始，然后逐步降低这些数值。

Like, you can start and then you can bring all those numbers down.

你不会一上来就直接用那些极限数字。

You wouldn't start right at those numbers.

是的，当然。

Yeah, of course.

但你可以慢慢把这些指标都降下来，这其中很大一部分其实都源于阿尔贝托的理念——就是阿尔贝托·萨拉扎尔，他训练时几乎完全是用数学思维在推算。

But you can just build all those down, and it's so much of that is, you know, and to give credit to Alberto, that was Alberto Salazar, that was a lot of his principle, Honestly, he's looking at training almost from a mathematical standpoint.

他就会想，哎，对了。

He's like, okay, oops.

所以你得这么来安排。

So this is what you have to do.

对吧？

Right?

因为我们以前没这么想，不是单纯为了拿奖牌才这么练。

Because we didn't it was less about, okay, well, this is what it takes to win a medal.

对吧？

Right?

我们必须能以每公里2分47秒的速度跑，最后冲刺52秒。

We have to be able to run twenty seven minute pace and then close in 52.

对吧？

Right?

咱们先不管生理学怎么说，心率啊、乳酸监测啊，那些东西我们那时候都没有。

So, let's forget about whatever the physiology says, heart rates, we didn't have lactate, metering, whatever those sort of things.

但训练就得按这个标准来。

But it's we have to train at that.

那我们怎么在两三年里逐步建立起完整的训练计划？

So what how do we actually build a whole program over the course of two or three years?

为了达到这个目标。

To get to that.

为了达到这个目标。

To get to that.

你就把它单纯当成一个数学问题来看。

Like, just look at it purely as just a math problem.

作为大学教练和高中教练，情况不一样，因为我们真的需要培养这些年轻人。

Now, as a college coach and a high school coach, it's different because we have this we really have to develop these young men and women.

对吧？

Right?

每个人的情况都不同，比如莫·法拉赫那样的选手，我们得为他量身规划，但一个想第一次突破六分钟的高中女生，需求可能完全不一样。

And everybody that where Moe Farrah's that might have been where we had to plan for Moe Farrah, but that might be different from a high school junior girl who's trying to break six minutes for the first time.

但核心原则其实差不多，对吧？

But the principle is almost the same, right?

没错。

Mhmm.

你可以说，她每圈得跑90秒，但现在她只能跑6分30秒，如果她的目标是两年内突破六分钟，那我们该怎么一步步缩小这个差距？

You can say, well, she has to run ninety seconds per lap, and right now she can only run six thirty, but over the next two years, if that's her goal, to run under six, well, how do we chip away at that?

我们怎么让这些数字一步步对上？

How do we make the numbers line up?

因为当运动员真正站上起跑线时，我不希望听到他们说‘我希望’‘我盼着’这类话。

Because then when the athlete actually gets on the line, it's no longer I wish, I hope for you'll never hear my athlete saying that.

我希望能有好状态，或者天啊，希望明天一切顺利，感觉不错——这些都不在考虑范围内。

I hope I have a good day, or I would, you know, I, gosh, I hope it's just gonna be a great day tomorrow, I hope everything feels good.

这些根本不是我们该想的事。

It's like, that's not really part of this.

该做的准备、该算的数字，早就都搞定了。

We've already done all the work and all the math already winds up.

就去执行就行。

We- Just go execute.

已经准备好了。

Done it.

对。

Yeah.

就去执行吧，因为你已经做足了所有准备，数据也完全对得上。

Just go execute because you've already done everything, and and the math lines up.

我记得科科在四五年前提前在钻石联赛尤金站的3000米上首次突破时，她就在做那些训练，我当时纯粹从数学角度在看。

And I remember even when Coco had her first breakthrough in the three k at Diamond League, Eugene, four years, five years ago, I just she was doing the the stuff, and I'm just looking at it from a math perspective.

我就跟科科说：你今天大概能跑出8分20秒。

Said, Coco, you're gonna run about 08:20 today.

她一听就说：你确定吗？我当时就对她说：科科——

And she goes, she's like, you gotta be I was like, Coco,

相信它就行。

just Just trust it.

相信它。

Trust it.

她真的跑出了8分20秒。

She ran eight twenty.

对吧？

Right?

对。

Yeah.

这根本不是我给她打鸡血或者做类似的事情，我对艾米丽也是这么做的。

It just it wasn't me just giving her a big pep talk or any of these sort of things, and I've had the same things with Emily.

她平时训练的强度，我们都知道她完全能跑得更快。

The workouts that she's been doing, we know she can run quite a bit faster.

她只是没参加过这种比赛，就像你看到的那些其他运动员一样。

She just hasn't been in these races, and I've got, like, you've seen in these other athletes.

从数学角度来说，你千万别在赛道上想‘我做不到’，因为你训练时早就已经做到了。

It's like, okay, from just the math standpoint, you don't I don't want you ever to on the track thinking, oh, I can't do this, because you kinda already have in the training.

数据完全对得上。

The math lines up.

你现在就是为这场比赛量身打造的。

You're engineered now for this job.

我很喜欢这个想法。

I love I love the idea of that.

我经常告诉我的运动员，比赛那天你不该感到惊讶。

And I often tell my athletes, like, you should not be surprised on race day.