Enormocast 301：昆汀·罗伯茨——聆听群山

因为我觉得从外面看，你好像对风险有点免疫似的。是的。

Because it's I think from the outside looking in, it seems like you're a bit immune to it Yeah.

在对待这些事情上。

When it comes to some of this stuff.

是的。

Yeah.

我其实一点都不免疫。

I'm not immune to it at all.

有时候确实会这样。

Well Sometimes you are.

比如，如果你遇到险情或者差点出事，像你在独攀的时候遇到那种让人心里发毛的瞬间，有时候如果你不够警觉，你是意识不到这些危险的。

Like, sometimes like, if something if you have a close call or or something, you know, like if you're soloing and you have a sketchy moment or something like that, sometimes those moments, if you're not careful, they don't you don't hear them.

人有时候就会下意识地继续往下走，把这些感觉屏蔽掉。我就是在巴塔哥尼亚经历的那件事，一月份发生的，现在都盛夏了，我这最近三周甚至这一个月才真正开始消化这件事，你懂的吧？

You can kind of just like keep keep going and and block them out, which I basically because this happened in Patagonia in like January and now it's the middle of the summer, and I've really only been processing it this last three weeks or this last month, you know?

所以这就是个挺有意思的现象。

And so you just have to it's it's a funny thing.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得我们的大脑特别擅长把那些可怕或吓人的经历屏蔽掉，但这其实会带来隐患。

I think our minds are very good at blocking blocking horrible experiences out or scary experiences out, and that can be a detriment.

我们必须认真倾听大山发出的信号。

We really have to listen to the mountains when they talk to us.

对吧？

Right?

对。

Right.

你多大了？

How old are you?

我现在32岁了。

I'm 32 now.

32岁啊。

32.

好的。

Okay.

是的。

It's yeah.

开始有点明白了。

It's starting to make sense.

二十多岁啊，兄弟。

The twenties, man.

对，老兄。

Yeah, dude.

就像他们说的，二十多岁真是够折腾的。

The twenties are a hell of a drug as they say.

哎呀，天哪。

Oh, man.

没错。

Yes.

二十多岁那会儿，真是段疯狂的旅程。

It was a wild ride, those twenties.

对啊。

Yeah.

我是说，希望以后还能再经历一次那样的日子。

And I mean, hopefully, still still still is gonna be one.

不过，确实不一样了。

But, yeah, it's different.

确实不一样。

It's different for sure.

到了三十出头，我感觉自己对生活的整体看法发生了很大变化。

The 30 early thirties, I feel like I have my perspective on life in general has changed lot.

我也跟一个谈了很久的女朋友分手了，她陪我度过了整个二十多岁，在那段时期对我来说是个非常重要的依靠。

I also broke up with a long term girlfriend who I had through the my twenties, and she was like a really powerful anchor in that time.

所以即使我当时的生活特别疯狂、乱七八糟，她也给了我很多稳定感，直到我们分手后我才真正意识到这一点。

So even though my life was like super wild and crazy, she provided a lot of stability that I think I didn't really recognize until we broke up.

然后，进入三十岁后，突然有了这么多攀岩的机会，想去哪儿就去哪儿，想什么时候去就什么时候去。

And then so that that too in going into my thirties and suddenly having all this opportunity climbing and being able to go whenever I wherever I want whenever I want.

是的。

Yeah.

那真是个疯狂的组合。

It was a crazy combo.

所以，我的二十多岁确实很疯狂，但分手后，在三十出头的时候，我突然有了这么多机会。

So I went from like it was a wild twenties for sure, but then when we broke up and in my early thirties, I kinda suddenly had all this opportunity.

我一直对攀岩有极大的热情，现在终于可以好好去做了，不用再靠干树木修剪之类的工作来维持生计了。

And I've always had a huge fire to go climbing and I could do it properly without having to do tree work or other work, you know.

我做到了，那真是太疯狂了。

And I did it and that's been crazy.

现在坐在这里，心想，哇，那真是一段疯狂的时光，接下来我该做什么呢？

And now I'm like sitting here like, woah, that was wild and what am I gonna do next, you know.

对。

Right.

要不要考虑加入个乡村俱乐部什么的？

Can I interest you in a country club membership or something?

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

也许我会开始打高尔夫。

Maybe I'll start golf.

草地保龄球。

Lawn bowling.

草地保龄球一直让我挺感兴趣的。

Lawn bowling's always interesting me.

是的。

Yeah.

哦，确实是这样。

Oh, it has.

不。

No.

不。

No.

完全不是。

Not at all.

我连下一件事都不想做了。

I don't even wanna do next thing.

比如，我们已经很努力了，但我这里记了一句你之前说过的话。

Like, we've gone hard already, but I have this phrase in here that you used somewhere.

我，我是从你某句话里摘出来的。

I I pulled it out of something that you said.

对。

Mhmm.

就是说，高山攀登的一部分，其实是在直面自我。

That like part of alpine climbing is a confrontation of the ego.

哦，对。

Oh, yeah.

还记得说过这个吗？

Remember saying that?

其实整个攀登都是这样。

Climbing in general.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得这跟我们现在聊的好像有点关系。

And I mean, it seems like that's tied into this somehow.

还是那个思路，就是去倾听发生了什么，或者倾听那些信号，对吧。

Again, this idea of listening to what happened or listening to these signals Mhmm.

可以说，不要忽视自己的有限性，不像年轻的时候或者在那个状态里那样，可以忽略它。

And not ignoring your mortality, so to speak, the way you can when you're maybe younger or when you're in that mode.

对。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

你能稍微解释一下吗？

Can you sort of explain that at all?

比如你当时在想什么，对。

Like what you're thinking when you Yeah.

聊过这个吗？

Talked about that?

关于生死这事儿，我确实觉得……我希望自己从来没有真正忽视过它。

The mortality thing, I definitely don't think well, I hope to think that I've never really ignored it.

我很早就有过一些经历，让我意识到自己在做的事情有多危险。

I had some experiences like pretty early on that showed me how dangerous what I was doing was.

与其说忽视，不如说我是在坦然接受它。

Instead, I would say that I'm just accepting it.

我觉得在高山攀登和攀岩运动中，大家通常都不太愿意承认自己是在冒险，要么就是根本没意识到自己正在冒风险。

And I think in general, in alpine climbing and climbing, people don't really accept that they're taking risk, and they don't And if they're not either that or they don't know that they're taking risk.

因为就像我们出去的时候，哪怕只是攀岩，你也知道，我在岩壁上就遇到过巨大的岩石脱落的情况。

Because like if we go out there, even if you're rock climbing, you know, like I've had giant chunks of rock fall off at the Crag.

但没人戴头盔。

No one's wearing helmets.

毕竟出岔子的可能性太多了。

Like there's just a million ways shit can go wrong.

我觉得，如果我们非要装作他们是在做安全的事，或者我从不单独行动所以我就安全了，这完全是扯淡。

And I think for us to like get out there and just pretend like they're doing the safe thing or I never go soloing, so I'm safe is bullshit.

明白吗？

Know?

毕竟这本身就是危险的。

Like it's dangerous.

事实就是这样。

That's just the way it is.

而且我做的确实更危险，但我接受这一点，这就是区别所在。

And for sure what I do is more dangerous, but I accept that and that's the difference.

明白吗？

Know?

直到目前为止，我都已经坦然接受了自己的生死无常。

Like and I have up until this point accepted my mortality.

我清楚，如果一切失控，那我就……对，没命了。

I recognize that like, if everything goes south, I'm I'm gonna yeah.

真是的。

Shit.

情况可能会变得非常糟糕，你懂的。

It could go really bad, you know.

我当然不希望那样，但我觉得我们必须正视这一点。

I don't want that obviously, but it's it's something I think we have to recognize.

说到自我膨胀的问题，对，那确实是个大问题。

And with the ego thing, yeah, that's the ego is is huge.

我觉得我大部分关于自我意识的重大调整，都是在二十岁出头完成的。

I think I did, like, most of my major ego processing in my early twenties.

那时候我疯狂地攀岩，拼命想变得更好，但后来进步就停滞了。

Like, I was rock climbing a ton and trying to get better and better and better, and then I stopped getting better than I.

之前我处在一个非常陡峭的进步曲线上，但后来这个曲线慢慢平缓了。比如你去参加一次高山攀登探险，回来之后体能就会差很多。

Well, I was on this like super steep progression curve, and eventually that progression curve like teetered off a little bit, and I started oh, you know, go on an alpine climbing expedition, you come back, you're way less fit.

我其实从来没有真正坚持过全年不间断的进阶训练，要是能那样做应该挺不错的。

And I've never actually like put in consistent year round progression training, which would be cool to do.

不过话说回来，二十岁出头那会儿，我一直在训练，不停地攀爬。

But anyway, in my early twenties, I was training, always climbing a turn.

但我总觉得进步没有达到我期望的速度。

I didn't feel like I was improving as much as I wanted it.

每次我做不到想做的事，就会特别沮丧，你懂吗？

And every time I couldn't do something that I wanted to do, I'd lose it, you know?

然后我就不得不认真思考，自己为什么会这么沮丧。

And it was just this Then I really had to think about why I was losing it.

然后原因就是你想去做，为什么你想做呢？因为你得问自己，为什么为什么你想做，不知道，为什么你那么想做，以至于做不到就生气，对吧？

And then the reason is because you want to do it and why do you want to do it because you gotta like why why do you want don't know why why do you want to do it so bad that you're getting mad that you can't do it, right?

所以对我来说，这个过程非常非常酷。

And so that was a cool really really cool part of the process for me.

而且这主要指的是运动攀岩、抱石和攀岩。

And that was specifically like sport climbing and bouldering and rock climbing.

其实不是高山攀登，但显然也适用于高山攀登。

It wasn't actually alpine climbing, but obviously it translates to alpine climbing too.

你会看到自己为什么想达成目标，如果只是为了爬到抱石的顶端，而不是为了完成那些带你到顶端的动作，那你的心态就完全不同了，关乎你的自我和做事的动机。而记住这一点——你来是为了攀爬，不是为了登顶——会让人非常释然。

And you see like why you want to do the objective and if it's to get to the top of the boulder rather than to do the moves that get you to the top of the boulder, it's like a totally different perspective in terms of your ego and why you're doing what you're doing, and a really liberating one to just like remember that you're here to climb, not to get to the top.

你来这里只是为了享受在印度亨比的生活，吃美味的食物，慢跑，早晚去抱石。

You're here to just enjoy being in Hampi in India, eating awesome food and jogging and going bouldering in the morning and the evening.

如果你成功爬上一块超难的抱石，那很棒。

If you top out a sick boulder, do, and that's awesome.

而我完成最难的那些事情时，从来都没有那些期待，我觉得自我从来没有真正参与其中，包括在山上独攀的时候也是。

And all the times that I've done the hardest things, I've never had those expectations, and I don't think ego has really ever been a part of it, including soloing in the mountains too.

每次我去独自攀登时，我都会非常认真对待，我会冥想，倾听自己的内心，努力确保自己这么做是因为热爱那种环境和风景。

Like whenever I go soloing, I take it really seriously, and I meditate, I listen to myself, and I try and make sure that I'm doing it because I love being in that environment and the landscape.

即使在最近的巴塔哥尼亚，那次事故发生时，我也真的很开心能待在那里，你知道吗。

And even in Patagonia recently, with this accident, I was really really happy to be there, know.

事故发生时，我也同样很开心能待在那里。

And when the accident happened, I was really happy to be there too.

而且我非常感激这次经历。

And I was really thankful for the experience.

我不得不离开那里。

I had to get out of there.

最后我的脚踝其实有点骨折了，膝盖也伤得很重，所以——

I had like in the end I had actually kind of broken my ankle a little bit and really hurt my knee, so

那次独自攀登的事故其实不疼，就是……

it was painless The solo accident, the the

挺糟糕的。

poor piece.

另一个嘛，其实我并没有……

The other one, yeah, I didn't actually

我是说，你可是摔了个大跟头。

I mean, you took like a big ass ball.

对，大概有20米左右吧。

Yeah, like 20 meters or something.

好的。

Okay.

就是那个像斧头一样翻滚的。

Like the tomahawkey one.

没错。

Right.

然后我……

And I

当时我穿着冰爪，拿着冰镐，脚踝可能有点轻微骨裂之类的，但我的……是的。

had crampons and ice axes, and my ankle I think got like it's just a little microfracture or something, but my yeah.

我冰爪的前齿卡住了。

My front point on the crampon snagged.

对。

Mhmm.

所以，是的。

So but yeah.

当，当

When when

你那时候特别痴迷攀岩，是在坎莫尔吗？

you were this this person obsessed more with rock climbing, was that in Canmore?

对。

Mhmm.

你是在

Were you in the

弓河谷还是

Bow Valley or

在奥卡纳根的斯卡哈。

Skarha in the Okanagan.

我当时在上大学。

I was in university.

哦，好的。

Oh, okay.

对。

Yeah.

就是那段时间。

That you can just that time period.

对。

Yeah.

我最大的，比如，是在汉皮，那段时间我真的觉得我第一次消化了，那是我第一次，哦，等等。

My big, like, the it was in Hampi, the the time where I really feel like I first digested my that was my first, like, oh, wait.

我得好好想想为什么现在要这么做。

I gotta, like, think about why I'm doing this properly now.

因为在那之前，我就是单纯地在做这件事。

Because before that I was just doing it.

我真的很喜欢它。

I loved it.

我一直都很喜欢。

I've always loved it.

毫无疑问。

No question.

就是不停地往前冲。

Just go go go.

别去想为什么，因为这是世界上最棒的事，你只管攀登就好。

Don't even think about why because it's the best thing in the world and you're just climbing.

后来我突然觉得没那么开心了，不得不去思考原因。

And then suddenly I started having less fun and I had to think about why, you know.

然后我找到了找回乐趣的方法，基本上又玩得开心起来了。

And then I found out how to fun and have fun again basically.

我只是想明白了自己为什么攀岩，然后把注意力放在那上面，而不是结果上。

I just figured out why I was climbing and then focus on on that instead of the the outcome.

你明白吗？

You know?

聊到自我和攀岩真的很有意思，因为它的意义远不止于此。

Talking about ego and climbing is really interesting because it goes beyond that too.

比如说，一个很明显的自我表现就是，你只是想完成某件事，好跟朋友炫耀你登上了多难的顶峰之类的。

Like, that's a very obvious sign of the ego, think, if you're, like, just trying to achieve something so that you can say that you got to the top of something hard and that's how you look around your friends or whatever.

但如果你换个角度想，你为什么要做这件事？

But if you're thinking about it from more of the perspective of, why do you do it?

尤其是高山攀岩这种有危险性的活动。

Especially alpine climbing is something that's dangerous or something like that.

你为什么要对身边的人做这种事？

Why do you do it to the people around you?

这其实是一件很自私的事情。

Like, it's such a selfish thing for you to do.

说到自我和自私的关联，是的，那里面肯定有很多自我。

And in terms of ego and selfishness being correlated, yeah, there's definitely a lot of ego then.

如果你把自私看作自我，那高山攀登绝对是一种非常自私的追求。

If you consider selfishness ego, then for sure, alpine climbing is a super selfish pursuit.

而且这是一种非常强大的自私追求，你知道吗。

And it's a really powerful selfish pursuit, you know.

对我来说，它彻底改变了我的生活和看待世界的方式。

Like for me it's completely changed my life and my perspective on life and the world.

我对此非常感激。

I'm really thankful for it.

但是，是的，我是说，我是为自己做的。

But but yeah, I mean, I I did it for myself.

我不是为别人做的。

I didn't I didn't do it for someone else.

我现在也不是为别人做，将来也不会。

And I'm not doing it for someone else either and I never will be.

这也是它同时很酷的地方。

That's kinda what's so cool about it at the same time.

但没错，我们得记住这是自私的。

But, yeah, we have to remember it's selfish.

稍微往回说一点，你好像是个超级国际化的孩子。

Going back just a little bit, like, were kinda the super international kid.

对。

Yeah.

听起来你父母好像是老师，我记得是在……嗯……

Sounds like your folks were were teachers, I think, in Mhmm.

国际学校之类的地方。

International schools and things like that.

小时候在威尔士待过。

Time in Wales as a little kid.

嗯。

Mhmm.

在德国待过一小段时间。

A little dent in Germany.

南非那段经历，大概是你刚进入青春期或者青春期的时候吧。

South Africa is kinda where you kinda were like a preteen or post

在南非的时候大概是15到17岁。

It was it was like 15 to 17 in South Africa.

对。

Yeah.

不过中间我好像看到过，你当时好像在德国的某个地方，对。

But somewhere in there I read about like you being off, I think, in Germany somewhere in some like Mhmm.

像是那种挺讲究的贵族学校之类的。

Like, you know, very sort of snobby school or something

对。

Yeah.

就像……还有像

Like And like

你说你融入不进去。

you said, like, didn't fit in.

好像你说的，那地方什么都不好。

Like, everything everything I think you said everything sucked about it.

对。

Yeah.

除了旁边有山。

Except that it was like by some mountains.

是的。

Yeah.

旁边确实有山，而且因为那学校特别特别势利，他们还雇了两个登山向导。

It was by some mountains and because it was such a snap snap snobby school, they had like two mountain guides.

学校雇了一个向导和一个见习向导。

One guide and one apprentice guide employed at the school.

哦，这样啊。

Oh, okay.

他们是攀岩队的领队。

They were head of the climbing team.

然后大概有三个孩子特别热衷，他们就会带我们去阿尔卑斯山，你知道的，比如去冰川上或者在多洛米蒂山区攀爬。

And then there were like three of us kids that were super into it and they would take us into the Alps, you know, like on glaciers and climbing in the Dolomites.

差不多每个双周末我们就会去阿尔卑斯山。

And it was like every second weekend we would go into the Alps.

那时候我大概十三岁，接触到了各种疯狂的活动。

And I was like back back then I was like 13, you know, and I was getting exposed to all this crazy stuff.

我完全不知道自己在干嘛。

I had no idea what I was doing.

那些路线我都记不住了。

I don't remember any of the routes.

我就跟在后面那个叫希弗尔的人身后，等着被系上绳索。

I was just getting yarded up behind this guy, Herr Schiffer, he was called.

对。

And yeah.

我也不太清楚。

I don't know.

就是特别幸运。

It's just like really lucky.

我真的挺感激的。

I'm really thankful for that.

不过当时真的挺拼命的。

But it was really intense.

那所学校的同辈压力简直太大了。

Like the peer pressure at that school was wild.

可以说，这是我小时候上过的所有学校里最夸张的。

And the most of any school that I've, you know, went to when I was a kid.

我想无论是在南非还是英国的学校，都没法跟它比。

I guess in South Africa in school and UK in school.

不过说真的，德国那所学校确实挺让人窒息的。

But yeah, that one in Germany was an intense one.

听起来南非那段经历里，我注意到有个细节是关于滑板的。

Well, it sounds like too that there was a the like, the South African part, there was a bit I just noticed skateboarding.

对。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

而且你知道的，我觉得传统上来说，那些不合群的孩子往往会去滑板或者攀岩。

And, you know, it's just I think it's traditionally that, like, yeah, the kids that don't fit in, they find skateboarding, they can find climbing.

确实。

Totally.

你知道，在世界上的一些地方，人们会去冲浪，

You know, in some places of the world, they find surfing,

你懂的。

you know.

对，我也在南非滑过冲浪板，是的。

Yeah, did surf in South Africa too, Yeah.

所以我觉得有一条隐约的线索，就是有些孩子可能不太适应他们所处的环境。

And so it's kinda like I see this sort of through line of a kid that was like, not necessarily fitting into what they needed.

对。

No.

我一直都不合群。

I've never fit in.

到现在还是这样。

I still don't fit in.

不过你知道的，这样也挺好。

But you know, like, it's okay.

其实不合群还挺有意思的。

It's kinda fun not to fit in.

那时候在南非，我特别迷滑板，比攀岩还着迷。

Back then in South Africa, I was super into skateboarding, like way more than climbing.

但滑板嘛，你知道的，让我整天泡在街上抽烟、干些傻事。

But skateboarding was like, you know, keeping me on the streets smoking and doing stupid shit.

我父母特别不想让我在街上混，所以他们一直推着我去攀岩。

And my parents were really wanting me not to be on the streets doing that, so they were like pushing climbing.

对。

Yeah.

我一直都很喜欢攀岩，也一直在做这件事。

I've always loved climbing and I've always done it.

但那时候，攀岩更多是学校里组织的活动，或者父母鼓励我去做的那些事。

But back then it was definitely something that I'd do like through school and my parents encouraged and those kind of things.

不过，在南非也是我第一次和朋友们独立去攀岩。

But but South Africa was also the first time where I like climbed independently with my buddies.

我知道怎么挂快挂、怎么先锋攀，还有怎么收绳。

Like I knew how to go like clip bolts and and lead climb and you know, wrap in.

开普敦的运动攀岩条件真的非常好。

And in Cape Town, the sport climbing is really really good.

所以那算是我第一次真正接触运动攀岩。

So it was like that was my introduction to sport climbing.

我确实玩得很开心。

I did have a ton of fun doing it.

不过，是的，从九岁到十七岁，或者说直到我搬到加拿大之前，我一直就是个滑板迷。

But, yeah, all through those years, like from the age of nine to 17 or whenever I moved to Canada, I was just like a skate head.

我就是热爱滑板，别的什么都不想干。

I just love skateboarding and I didn't wanna do anything else.

真有意思。

That's funny.

这就像你祖父母那样。

That's like your grandparents.

不是。

No.

攀岩的人今晚不去健身房。

Climbers don't climbers don't to the gym tonight.

对。

Yeah.

攀岩的人不抽大麻或别的什么。

Climbers don't smoke weed or anything.

对。

Yeah.

我会把他们和攀岩的人一起送过去。

I'd send them with the climbers.

他们就说，行。

They're like, sure.

我们

We

不抽大麻。

don't smoke weed.

对。

Yeah.

我们完全没问题。

We're totally good.

对。

Yeah.

不。

No.

没错。

Exactly.

他跟我们一起没问题。

He'll be fine with us.

过来，昆汀。

Come here, Quentin.

他们不知道，我正好有两个亚文化圈是对的。

Little do they know I just have two subcultures that are Right.

非常棒的亚文化圈。

Totally awesome subcultures.

我觉得，

I think,

我的意思是，这样稍微健康一点。

I mean, it's a little healthier.

对。

Yeah.

攀岩和滑板那些，对吧。

The climbing versus the The skaters, yeah.

外面情况可能挺严峻的。

It can be rough out there.

哦，对。

Oh, yeah.

当然。

For sure.

是的。

Yeah.

挺有意思的。

That's interesting.

我是说，你还有没有还在用的滑板？

I mean, do you do you like still run a deck somewhere?

有啊，对。

Do have Oh, yeah.

我现在手头正好有两块。

I've actually got two right now.

约翰·普莱斯刚从坎莫尔回来，我都没想起来我之前给他过一块。

John Price just came back from Canmore and I didn't realize that I've totally forgotten that I'd given him one.

所以现在我有两个了，差不多就是这样，对。

So now I've got two and I'm almost like but yeah.

我确实还在坚持。

I I do still.

其实我是疫情期间才重新开始的。从17岁来加拿大一直到疫情前，我都没怎么滑冰。

I just I started again during the pandemic actually for like a long from the age of 17 when I came to Canada until the pandemic, I I didn't skate.

然后疫情期间我又开始滑了，结果又爱上了这项运动。

And I started in the pandemic, and I fallen in love again.

感觉更容易进入一点心流状态，不用换衣服，也不用去健身房，你可以快速滑个十五分钟，或者跟朋友玩一局滑板游戏，也可以去滑板公园待上几个小时。

It's like it's way easier to go get a little in a little bit of flow state without getting changed or without going to the gym, and you can do it for, like, fifteen minutes quick or have a quick game of skate with your buddy or just go on session and then skate park for, like, hours.

而且这一切都非常方便。

But all of that is, like, really easy access.

我很喜欢这个圈子，而且能跳出攀岩圈也挺好的，因为我现在完全沉浸在攀岩圈里了。

I love the community, and it's beautiful to step outside of the climbing community too because I'm, like, I'm so in the climbing community now.

你懂吧？

You know?

所以去滑板公园的时候，我不用自我介绍说‘嗨，我是昆汀’，然后还得说别的。

And so going to a skate park, I don't have to I'm like, hi, I'm Quentin, and I don't have to say anything else.

我也不用说我是个攀岩者。

I don't have to say I'm a climber.

我就直接跟不认识的人一起滑板，这种感觉很棒。

I just go skateboarding with people I don't know, and it's it's cool.

我真的很享受这一点。

I enjoy I enjoy that a lot.

所以从疫情开始我就一直在玩这个。

So I've been doing it, yeah, since the pandemic.

你和加德纳一起出去过吗？

Do ever get out with Gardner?

是的。

Yeah.

我们出去过。

We've gotten out.

通常是在始祖鸟的活动之类的场合，我们会一起出去。

Usually during, like, Arc'teryx events and stuff like that, we get out.

但我们从来没真正一起玩过，和他一起出去应该会很有趣。

But but we've never gotten it'll be fun to get out with him.

他滑板的风格和我很不一样。

He skates a very different style for me.

对。

Like Right.

我是在南非学滑板的，那边没有滑板公园。

I learned in South Africa and we didn't have skate parks.

我们只有那种干碗池，还有像街头风格那样的台阶、栏杆和 ledge 之类的设施。

We just had dry bowls and like very street kind of like stairs and rails and ledges and stuff.

加德纳从小到大都有滑板公园，一直在那儿滑，他在所有坡道上都特别厉害。对。

And Gardner's had a park his whole life and skated it his whole life and he's a total boss on all the ramps and Yeah.

我就是不太擅长那种弧形过渡的动作之类的。

I just don't I'm not as good at the transition y stuff.

我们的风格不同，那肯定特别酷。

We have a different style, which would be sick.

其实我还没问过他，但我挺想跟加德纳一起去苏格兰的。

I would I've actually I haven't asked him yet, but I wanna go to Scotland with Gardner.

那肯定会特别好玩，我们可以去爬雪山，然后在爱丁堡和格拉斯哥玩滑板。

It'd be really fun and do some winter climbing and then and then skate in Edinburgh and Glasgow.

这两个城市都很适合滑板。

Those are some cool cities to skate.

在那儿滑板肯定会特别兴奋，不过是的。

It'd be really psyched to skate in, but yeah.

再说吧。

We'll see.

哥们，这简直就是个电影项目啊。

Dude, that's a that's a film project right there.

对。

Yeah.

确实。

It is.

是的。

Yeah.

挺酷的主意。

A pretty cool idea.

对。

Yeah.

因为就像昨晚，或者我经常听到这种说法，但我觉得昨晚有人提到过，说这个有点受滑板文化启发。

Because like even last night or I hear this all the time, but I think somebody said it last night about like, oh, this is sort of skate inspired.

嗯哼。

Uh-huh.

然后我就，你知道的

And then I've, you know

他们保持真实。

They keep it real.

有些小杂志，就是那种来自滑板文化的小型攀岩杂志。

Some of the zines, like the little climbing zines that come from that skate culture.

对。

Yeah.

那是手工装订的。

It's hand button pop.

它就会

It would

那挺酷的。我是说，据我所知，真正厉害的攀岩者里，像加德纳那样优秀的并不多。

be pretty cool to do I mean, because there's not a lot of really good climbers or that I know of that are also, like, as good as, like, Gardner is anyway.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

我不太清楚你的水平怎么样，不过好吧。

I don't know what your skills are like, but Right.

他们肯定不是职业选手。

They're definitely not pro.

不过我觉得这拍成电影会很棒。

But I think that'd be a great actual movie.

就像

Like

对。

Yeah.

那肯定会特别有意思。

It would be it would be really fun.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得拍成电影也会很棒。

I think it would be an awesome movie too.

没错。

Yeah.

我们去推销一下。

We'll pitch it.

好的。

Yeah.

行。

Alright.

Terex会去做的。

Terex will do it.

对。

Yeah.

我是说，你刚让那些滑板的人聊了

Mean, you just had the skate guys talk about the

鞋子。

shoes.

不。

No.

他会

He'll

做的。

do it.

是的。

Yeah.

只要能让一个人看起来酷，他就愿意干。

Anything that makes a guy look cool look cool is is he's down for that.

好吧，酷。

Well, cool.

我只是有点好奇，我是说，你是个有趣的孩子。

I just kinda was wondering about like, I mean, it's your interesting kid.

你过着大多数孩子没有的有趣生活。

You lived an interesting life that most kids don't.

你到处搬家，在全国各地跑来跑去，最后才走到这一步。

You're moving around the country and everything else leading up to this sort of stuff.

有没有那么一个时刻，用你自己的话说，你开始掌控自己的攀岩生涯？

There was a point at which you took, you know, in your own words, you took the reins of your own climbing.

对。

Yeah.

能聊聊这个吗？

Can you talk a little bit about that?

比如，你一开始只是玩玩，后来成了攀岩社区的一员，我想你后来去了温哥华对吧？

Like, yeah, you're dabbling and then you're part of the community rock climbing, and, I think you end up in Vancouver at some point Yeah.

高中那会儿，或者类似的时候，然后可能后来又到了坎莫尔。

In high school or something like that, and then maybe over to Canmore at some point.

所以，对，这一切是怎么衔接起来的？就是你说的‘掌握主动权’的那部分。

So, yeah, where does that all fit in that you quote unquote took the reins?

掌握主动权。

Took the reins.

对。

Yeah.

基本上直到我搬到加拿大之前，我在南非一直都有某种攀岩导师。

I all through basically, until I moved to Canada, I had always had a climbing mentor of some kind in South Africa.

我很幸运，在南非攀岩时，有一些顶尖的攀岩者指导我。

I was really lucky to have some of, like, the forefront spot climbers mentoring me when I was climbing in South Africa.

但当我来到加拿大后，我不认识任何会攀岩的人。

But then when I came to Canada, I didn't know anybody that climbed.

我高中的一位老师是攀岩爱好者，我们就一起开始了一项攀岩活动。

One of the teachers at the school at my high school was a climber, and we kinda started a climbing activity together.

感觉像是我第一次真正带头，教我的同学什么的，还在学校校园里搭了个小攀岩墙。

It felt like for the first time I was the one that was kind of leading that, and I was teaching other, you know, my classmates and stuff, and we built a little climbing wall on the on the campus that I was going to.

对，就是那时候我觉得，这算是我真正属于自己的领域了。

And, yeah, that that was kind of like where I felt like, Now it's my thing.

我开始教别人这项运动。

I'm teaching other people this thing.

而且那也是我下定决心要把攀岩当作事业的时候。

And also that was definitely where I decided that climbing is what I wanted to do.

读高中的时候我就决定要当一名高山向导，心想这样就能一直去爬山了。

In high school I decided to be a I was like, I'm gonna become a mountain guide, know, because I thought that that was how I'd be able to climb all the time.

高中毕业后我去落基山脉尝试了一下，结果发现自己根本不想当向导。

And then after high school I went out to the Rockies to try and do that and decided I didn't wanna be a mountain guide.

对。

I had yeah.

我确实做过一点徒步和带团的工作，比如在露易丝湖那边之类的，但发现那不适合我，很快就意识到自己不适合干这个。

I just like, I I did a bit of hiking, guiding around Lake Louise and stuff, it just wasn't even that wasn't for me, and I realized quickly not to.

所以我才去了奥卡纳根上大学，因为那边是我练运动攀岩的地方。

And so that's why I went to university in the Okanagan, which is where I was, like, sport climbing.

然后大学毕业后，我又搬回了肯莫尔。

And and then eventually, moved out out to Kenmore again after after uni in the Okanagan.

那你心里或者实际上是什么时候决定不再玩这种岩壁攀爬，转而去挑战大山的？

And when did you graduate in your head to or in reality to quit futzing around with this rock climbing stuff and get into the big mountains?

我刚出去想当向导的时候，在湖后面稍微爬了一点，而且我们当时还在我打工的旅馆附近开辟了几条路线。

So when I first went out to become a guide, I was climbing a little bit at the back of the lake and, you know, we'd actually established a couple of routes close to the lodge I was working at.

不过大部分时间，我就是在周围的山里到处攀爬。

But most of the time I was just scrambling all of the mountains around.

比如努姆蒂杰旅馆（Numbtijer Lodge）能看到的所有山，我都爬过，那家旅馆当时是我工作的地方。

Like I scrambled every mountain you can see from Numbtijer Lodge, which the lodge I was working at at the time.

我没车，所以只能走路或者搭便车，尽可能多地去爬山或者徒步。

I didn't have a car, so I just, like, walk and hitchhike and go climb as many as I could or hike as many as I could really.

确实有一些技术性较强的攀爬路段，但大多数时候就是徒步和打卡登顶之类的。

Like, definitely some technical scrambling, but mostly just hiking and peak bagging or whatever.

所以我是从那个角度开始接触高山攀岩的。

So I came into alpine climbing kind of from that from that angle.

我一直都在进行岩石攀岩和技术性攀爬，这很明显。

I had been rock climbing obviously and technical climbing the whole time.

差不多也是在那个时候，我开始练习攀冰。

Similarly, around that time is when I started ice climbing.

在那几年里，我觉得自己是在分开练习这些项目。

And in those years, I kind of feel like I was doing them separately.

所以我当时主要是做那种需要伸展的攀爬，也攀岩，不过那时候不怎么抱石，但会攀冰。

So I was like stretch scrambling, I was rock climbing, I wasn't really bouldering back then, but and I was ice climbing.

后来我遇到了克里斯，就是之前跟你提过的那个哥们儿。他是个高山攀登者，帮我把这些技能融会贯通，在山上协调运用。

And then Chris, my buddy that I chatted I told you about earlier, I met him around that time and he was an alpine climber and he kind of helped me bring all of those skills together and use them in the mountains in harmony, you know?

我觉得这才是高山攀登者最厉害的地方，对吧？

And I think that that is the greatest skill of an alpine climber, right?

关键就在于怎么把你掌握的各种技能巧妙地结合起来。

It's like, how do you blend all of these skills that hopefully you have?

我们每个人都得是全能手，让这些技能在山里无缝衔接，还要有在山里积累的那种直觉——我觉得现在这种直觉挺缺失的，比以前差远了，因为以前人们进山就是单纯在山里待着，不一定非要挑战极限或者爬那种超陡的13+自由路线什么的。

Like, we all have to be mega jack of all trades, and just let them be seamless in the mountains and have the intuition that you build in the mountains, which I think is sadly quite lacking more so these days than it was because people did come into the mountains from just spending time in them and not necessarily having to be charging or doing the super steep 13 plus free route or whatever.

我觉得这真的能帮你更好地感受山，你懂吗？

And I think that that does really help you to kind of feel them, know?

就像，你会慢慢培养出一种直觉。

Like, you you just get like a bit of an intuition.

在森林里迷路了也不会慌。

You you don't freak out if you get lost in the forest.

顺着水流找到河流，你就学会了怎么在野外生存。

You follow the water to the river, and you just learn how to be out there.

对，我觉得现在的人在这方面学得少了，但是——

And, yeah, I think that people learn that less, but

你觉得在落基山脉攀岩的经历对你有什么影响？

What do you think the, like, coming up climbing in The Rockies has done for you?

因为那里似乎是很多顶尖高手的试炼场，而且它确实拥有——我是说，它拥有一切。

Because it seems as though it's such a proving ground for so many of the greats, and and it does have the I mean, it has all the Everything.

高山攀登的难点很多，除了海拔之外还有很多其他因素。

Difficult parts of alpine climbing and a lot other than altitude.

是的。

Yeah.

而且那里也没有花岗岩。

It doesn't have granite either.

哦，这样啊。

Oh, okay.

虽然没有花岗岩，但那里有非常酷的石灰岩运动攀岩路线。

So but it granite or that like, it has really cool limestone sport climbing.

不过，落基山脉我觉得可能是世界上最好的高山攀登训练场。

But but, yeah, the Rockies are I think they're the best training ground for hard alpine climbing in the world, probably.

我觉得主要是那些巨大的冰川山脉很容易到达，你可以沿着冰原大道开车，然后半小时内就能开始攀登一条500米的冰壁路线，或者找到巨大的、险峻的石灰岩高山岩壁。

I just think that the access to those huge glaciated mountains, you know, you can drive down the Icefields Parkway and then literally, like, half an hour be climbing, like, a 500 meter ice route or or find big gnarly al alpine limestone faces.

装备也相当复杂。

The gear is really complicated.

想在落基山攀岩，你得擅长用装备、冰镐技术也要过硬，还得能准确判断雪层状况。

Like, to climb well in the Rockies, you need to be good with gear and good on your ice axes, and you need to be able to read the snowpack really well.

那里的雪层结构非常复杂，也很危险。

It's like a really complicated, dangerous snowpack.

所以在落基山你能学到很多东西，而且你几乎一直在徒步跋涉。

So there's just, like, a lot of learning that happens in the Rockies, plus you're hiking everywhere all the time.

这和霞慕尼不一样，在霞慕尼你可以坐缆车上去，然后去爬几段很棒的阿尔卑斯式路线，再下来。

It's not like Chamonix where you're, like, you know, catch a lift and then you go do some sick alpine pitches and then come back down.

为了去那些路段，你得走六个小时的路。

You're like, for that same thing, you're walking for six hours to get to those pitches.

这能把你练得特别结实。

And so it makes you really fit.

让你在各种复杂地形上都能灵活移动。

It makes you be able to move over difficult terrain well.

让你在雪地上行走也很稳当。

You can walk on snow well.

但这些都是非常基础的技能，我觉得我们必须得学会。

But, like, really fundamental skills that I think we need to to learn.

我之前在怀俄明州的科迪待过，那儿特别适合练习走路。

I was in Cody in Wyoming actually, and that's a really good place to practice walking.

那里全是那种硬邦邦的碎石坡，走起来特别费劲。

It's like all this, like, with that hard scree that's really hard to walk on.

对，就是这类东西。

But, yeah, those kind of things.

我觉得落基山脉有很多值得探索的地方，这也是为什么那里的人那么喜欢冰斧和攀岩的原因。

I think that The Rockies has a lot to offer, and and there's a good reason why people from there like like ice axes and climbing.

像我觉得落基山脉可能孕育了一些最顶尖的选手，比如我想到的拉夫·扎温斯基和威尔·加德这些人，他们使用工具的技术真的非常精湛。

Like, I think The Rockies probably produces some of the best, you know, I think about, like, Raf Zawinski and Will Gad and those guys, like, really, really exceptionally skilled on their tools.

看他们攀岩简直太不可思议了，这是因为他们一辈子都在落基山脉攀爬。

Like, it's incredible to watch them climb, and that's because they've climbed in The Rockies their whole lives.

对。

Yeah.

那我们来聊聊克里斯吧？

And let's do you wanna talk about Chris?

好。

Yeah.

没问题。

Sure.

对。

Yeah.

不。

No.

我是说，克里斯·威利是你早期的导师，对吧。

I mean, there Chris Willey is a mentor of yours early on, and Yeah.

你刚提到他带你理解了山中的和谐理念，以及掌握各种技能的重要性，嗯。

You just talked about how he was this guy that that brought you into this, this idea of harmony in the mountains and having all the skills and Mhmm.

他自己也是个相当出色的攀登者。

Quite a good climber himself.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但后来他生命的尽头发生了一件很离奇的事，而且你也参与了。

But then there's just a a crazy story that goes with with the end of his life and and you were involved.

你愿意聊聊这个吗？

Are you willing to talk about that?

好。

Yeah.

当然可以。

Of course.

是的。

Yeah.

克里斯是我最好的朋友，我的兄弟。

Chris was my best friend, my brother.

我和他关系非常非常亲密。

I was really, really close to him.

他比我大不少，大概大个七岁之类的。

He's he was quite a lot older than me, like, probably seven years older than me or something.

他对高山滑雪特别痴迷，你知道的，就是那种登山运动。

And he was so psyched on alpine climbing, you know, and on climbing.

他还帮我树立了攀登的道德准则，比如尽量减少使用岩钉、降低对环境的破坏，追求干净的攀登风格。他的攀登理念带有一种很英式的严谨作风。

And he had his he also oriented my ethics around climbing, you know, like minimizing the use of bolts, trying to have less impact, kinda, yeah, like clean ethics and and being all he kind of had a very British ethic sort of to his to his climbing.

所以我很庆幸通过克里斯，把这些理念都继承了下来。

So I took that on thankfully through Chris.

我觉得这种攀岩方式特别有价值，因为它能带来非常震撼的体验，而我们之所以去攀岩，就是为了从这些经历中获得成长。

I think they're really valuable because I think that that style of climbing gives you really powerful experiences, and I think that that's why we climb is so that we can grow from those experiences.

总之，是的，我们经常一起爬山。

But anyway, yeah, we climbed a lot together.

我第一次跟他去的是莫阿布，但这些年我们大部分时间都去了巴塔哥尼亚。

My first trip with him was to Moab, but we went to Patagonia mostly over the years.

那里就是我们进行大型探险的地方。

That was, like, where we would do our big expedition.

我第一次去那儿的时候是23岁，他帮我买了机票，因为我当时没钱。

My first ever year down there, I was 23, and he bought my flight ticket because I couldn't afford it.

那趟旅程简直让人大开眼界，我们还首登了菲茨罗伊山西壁的加拿大路线，太棒了。

It was, like, a totally mind blowing trip, and we did the third ascent of the Canadian route on Fitzroy on the South Face, which was amazing.

爬到半山腰的时候，我们只能挤在狭小的空间里过夜，冻得直哆嗦。

We had, like, a shiver bivvy halfway up.

所有这些经历都让我震撼不已。

All of that stuff was just blowing my mind.

就像每次我去一个新地方，因为都是第一次去嘛。

Like, every time I went somewhere, it was like, because it was the first time you're doing it.

你懂的？

You know?

对。

And yeah.

所以我们就那样一起爬了好一阵子。

So we kind of lived like that for quite a while climbing together.

大概在2016年冬天吧，我可能记不太准年份了。

And in the winter of twenty sixteen, maybe, I I might not get the year right.

我不确定具体是哪一年。

I'm not sure what year it was.

克里斯染上了阿片类药物成瘾。

Chris developed an opioid addiction.

他的生活基本上全面崩溃了，事业、伴侣，各种方面都出了问题。

He his life basically fell apart in every way possible, like his career, his partner, all sorts of things.

他是一名脑血管生理学家。

And he's a he was a cerebrovascular physiologist.

所以他其实对药物很了解，但不知怎么的，他就想着‘我就试试这个吧’。

So he, like, knew knows all about drugs and I don't know how to it was he was like, I'm just gonna try this thing.

这真是太疯狂了。

And it was crazy.

他说，‘我去印度过圣诞节的时候，整个人都不行了。’

He was like, I was gone in India for Christmas.

然后我就回来了。

And then I came back.

那时候我父母正住在印度。

My parents were living in India at the time.

等我回去的时候，他基本上已经对那种东西上瘾了。

And I came back, and he was basically addicted to the stuff.

我之前真不知道他在斯阔米什那边工作，所以我就跑去那儿看他，也就是在那儿我才意识到情况有多严重。

And I didn't really realize he was working out here in Squamish, and so I came out to Squamish to visit him, which is when I realized how intense the situation was.

他确实上瘾得很厉害，但心里其实并不想这样。

And he obviously like, he was super addicted, but he also didn't want to be.

后来他回到奥肯那根地区，住在我们家，慢慢戒掉了。

So we, like he came back to the Okanagan, and he stayed with us and got himself off it.

中间我们也去过康复中心待过一段时间。

We kinda went to a rehab center as well at one point.

是的。

Yeah.

最后他挺过来了。

And he he pulled through.

他是彻底戒掉了，但亲眼看着他经历这一切真的非常震撼，你知道的，那可是我非常敬重的人啊。

Like, he he totally got clean and but it was a really it was a really intense experience seeing him do that, you know, this man I admire so much.

我就眼睁睁看着他一点点崩溃，而且过程特别激烈。

I'm just watching him kind of implode, you know, so so intensely.

不过他还是重新振作起来了。

But he he got back to it.

他重新开始攀岩，还写了一本书，讲的是成瘾、攀岩以及毒品与登山运动之间的关系，简单来说就是这样。

He got back to climbing, and he started writing a book about addiction and climbing and about the relationship between drugs and alpinism, basically, in its simplest form.

我觉得这特别有意思。

And I thought I thought that was fascinating.

我和他就这个话题聊过一些非常酷、非常有意思的对话，因为我确实觉得这两者之间有很多共通之处。

I had some really, really cool and interesting conversations with him about that because I do think that there's a lot of crossover.

当然，一个是健康的生活方式，另一个则不然，但它们之间确实存在不少相似和交叉的地方。

Like, obviously, one's a lot more healthier than the other one, but there's a lot of crossover between the two.

所以，对，他当时正在写那本书，而且已经戒毒了，我们又一起攀岩了。

And so, yeah, he was right working on that book, and he was clean, and we were climbing again together.

我们去了布格山。

We went to the bugs.

他去了北豪瑟并卖掉了装备，然后我们决定十一月回巴塔哥尼亚。

He went and sold at the North Houser, and then we decided to go back to Patagonia in November.

所以我们赶在旺季之前去了，算是早季，一起爬了《失落的时光》那条路线，就是我最近独自攀登的那条。

So we went down for the early season, like, before the main season and climbed Los Tiempos Paradidos, which is the route that I was soloing on just recently.

我们一起爬了那条路线，然后想尝试完成塞罗托雷峰的《矩形》路线。

We climbed that route together, and then we tried to finish on the Rectauarpe on Cerro Torre.

它就像是《拉吉尼》路线的一个直接延伸终点。

Like, it's like a direct finish kind of to the Ragini.

要是能把这两段连起来，那就太酷了。

And that link up would be so cool.

《失落的时光》大概有900米，再加上400米又陡又刺激的疯狂路线。

It'd be like Tempos is like 900 meters and then it'd be like another 400 meters of really cool crazy steep Rhine climbing.

所以希望有人能完成这个。

So hopefully somebody does that.

不过，我有点跑题了。

But anyway, I'm going off on a tangent.

对。

But yeah.

所以我们试了试。

So we we tried.

我们离顶峰就差大概100米了。

We got really close to, like, a 100 meters from the summit.

我们放弃了，因为克里斯在领攀时搞不定，他找不到爬那个悬垂冰壁的方法。

We bailed because we couldn't figure out Chris was on lead, and he couldn't figure out how to climb the overhanging rhyme.

那地方特别陡，而且根本抓不住，我也不知道怎么说。

It was super steep and and just bottomless, and I don't know.

他没法着力，而且天气越来越热，山体也开始崩解，我们就决定撤了。

He couldn't get purchase, and we decided to because it was getting really hot and the mountain was falling apart.

所以我们决定撤退，收拾好装备天就黑了。

So we bailed and we wrapped and it got dark.

然后在摸黑下降的时候，我在收绳子，结果把上面一根绳子上挂着的一块石头给拽下来了，那块石头当时只是轻轻搭在绳子上。

And then in the dark while we were rappelling, I I was pulling the rope and I pulled a rock off that was very lightly somehow attached to the rope up high as I was pulling it.

石头砸下来正好击中克里斯的头部，撞在他的头盔侧面，把头盔都撞碎了，把他直接打晕了过去。

And the rock came down and smoked Chris in the head, like in the side of his helmet and smashed the side of his helmet, knocked him clean and conscious.

然后他大概昏迷了几分钟，醒过来之后完全失忆了，连自己在阿根廷都不知道。

And then he, you know, he was out for maybe a couple minutes, and then he came to and had completely forgotten everything, didn't know he was in Argentina.

他耳朵和鼻子都在流血，整个人都懵了。

He had blood coming out of his ear and his nose, and he was totally out of it.

所以到了那个节骨眼上，我也不清楚情况。

So at that point in time, I don't know.

那时候我还年轻。

I was young.

真的特别年轻。

I was really young.