Enormocast 317：阿利克·伯格——一位登山者的登山者

我也不清楚，真是运气太好了。

I don't know, it's super lucky.

我觉得小时候人摔下来反而不容易受伤。

I think when you're a kid, you bounce nicely.

是的，完全没错。

Yeah, totally.

好了，咱们换点别的话题吧。

All right, well let's move on to, some other stuff.

我们目前是按时间顺序聊的，不过一会儿也可以跳着来。

We're kind of doing this a little chronologically, but we can quit that in a minute.

另一个说法是，你小时候就开始去优胜美地长途跋涉了。

But, the other legend is that you, started doing these big road trips to Yosemite as a kid still.

我是说，我对你是怎么去的特别好奇，因为我读到过你15岁就爬了酋长岩这类事，那会儿你肯定还没驾照。

I mean, and I would say road trip is I'm interested in how you'd get there because, I read like a climbing El Cap when you were 15 and things like that, which, obviously is pre driver's license.

给我讲讲吧，那个12岁的孩子跟爸爸一起爬山，后来怎么慢慢变成自己一个人出去闯了。

So me a little bit about this 12 year old kid, he's climbing with his dad, and then it seems like some of this is now you setting out on your own.

是的，大概在中学那几年，每年夏天我都和我爸开车去加拿大旅行。

Yeah, so like, there was sort of like a series of summers, I guess probably in middle school, where I was doing a road trip with my dad every summer in Canada.

去过斯夸米什、鲍河谷，有一次下雨天还去了史密斯岩。

Squamish, the Bow Valley, maybe we went to Smith Rock once when it was raining or something.

我想，上高中前的那个夏天，我第一次去了优胜美地。

And then I think maybe the summer before the first year of high school, I went to the Valley.

那次还是和我爸一起去的，那时候我15岁，开始更想和其他人一起攀岩了。

It still went down with my dad, I was would have been 15 and was, like, getting to be more interested in climbing with other people.

毕竟是青少年嘛，虽然还跟老爸相处得不错，但也就是典型的青春期那些事儿。

Know, was a teenager and just was like, oh, you know, still got along with my dad, but just normal teenager shit.

那年夏天我们还是结伴去了，可能第二年夏天我就开始越来越少和他一起爬了，转头扎进了营地里那些穷游攀岩者的圈子，彻底迷上了大岩壁攀爬。

So we would we traveled down together that summer, I think maybe the summer after, but I climbed less and less with him and really jumped into the camp four kind of dirtbag scene or whatever, and got really into big wall climbing.

之前在斯夸米什的时候，我已经爬过大学墙之类的路线，也玩过一些单段辅助攀登，所以第一次到优胜美地时，虽然算个新手，但满脑子就想着要登顶酋长岩。

Was sort of doing that in Squamish before, like, did a bit of like, climbed University Wall or whatever, did some single pitch aid stuff, so got to Yosemite that first summer, like, you know, newbie aid climber but, like, really wanting to climb El Cap.

我先一个人爬了倾斜塔，用的全是破烂装备——这又是另一个故事了，但当时居然真搞定了。后来本来打算一个人挑战壁画墙，结果碰上个也想单人登岩的人，他一看我就说：‘你真打算一个人爬酋长岩？’

And I think I think I soloed Leaning Tower first and then with just a bunch of junk gear, which is a whole other story, but somehow figured that out, you know, and then climbed I think I was going to solo the mural wall and then ended up with a partner, just met someone who was going to solo a wall and was like, woah, you were going to solo a cap?

我本来打算独自攀登酋长岩。

I was going to solo a cap.

我们可以一起爬。

We could do it together.

那样会轻松一点。

That would be easier.

是的，有个叫雅克的人来自卢森堡，他当时只是来短暂停留。

Yeah, so this guy Jacques from Luxembourg and then he was just there on a short trip.

我觉得那年夏天我们又爬了一次。

I think that summer we did one more.

不过那年夏天，我还和斯科蒂·温尼克一起爬了新黎明路线，他后来成了我的好朋友。

But yeah, that summer also I climbed New Dawn with Scotty Vincik who became a close friend.

你以前认识斯科蒂吗？就是那个在优胜美地的？

Did you know Scotty from Yosemite?

不认识。

No.

那大概是你什么时候开始在优胜美地攀岩的？

That's kind of maybe after your What years were you climbing Yosemite?

90年代。

In the 90s.

大概是90年代中期。

So mid 90s.

所以大概是五年后了。

So it was sort of like five years later.

是的。

Yeah.

听上去你那时候也是这样。

Sounds like you were like, yeah.

那应该是2003年左右。

This would have been like 2003.

所以差不多隔了一代人了。

So yeah, sort of almost a generation later.

那边的世代更替特别快。

The generations are short there.

火焰燃得炽烈，但持续不了多久。

The fires burn bright and not very long.

不过我确实花了三个夏天住在四号营地，那段时间成长了很多，渐渐明白了自己真正想要的是什么——周围全是全心全意投入攀岩、别的都不在乎的人，那种感觉太棒了，对吧？

But yeah, spent three summers living in Camp 4 and did a lot of growing up there, like figured out what I wanted from life in a certain way that has still stuck where it was living around all these people who were just living and breathing, climbing, and nothing else mattered, and it was just awesome, right?

金钱、事业，那些普通人的生活标配，在那儿全都不见了。那些住在泥地里的人早就想通了，而我当时才十五岁，心里就想：哦，原来这才是生活该有的样子。

Money, career, whatever normal trappings of life were just totally absent, and all these people here living in the dirt, they had all figured that out, and I was kind of like 15 years old and being like, oh yeah, this is the way.

是的，我遇见过很多人，他们真正塑造了我后来的人生观和价值观。

Yeah, I've met a lot of people that I think really shaped the rest of my life and values.

你爸爸那时候也在那儿吧。

So your dad was kind of there.

是啊，算是边缘人物吧。

Yeah, on the periphery.

他就是个开车接送的司机。

He was the taxi driver.

每年夏天，你都会一个人待在那儿吗？

Like, every summer, did you spend time totally by yourself down there?

是的，当然。

Oh, yeah.

在斯阔米的时候，他把我丢在河边，我就跟一些美国攀岩者混在一起，待个一两周。

Mean, before that in Squamish, would drop me off at the river and I would just sort of climb with random Americans or whatever for a week or two.

但在山谷里，头一年我们经常一起爬，第二年他有了自己的攀岩伙伴。

But yeah, in the valley, I think the first season we climbed together a fair bit, and then the second season he kinda had some of his climbing partners.

我也有了自己的搭档。

Had some of mine.

我们各自安排自己的计划，但是一起开车下去。

We made sort of our own plans, but drove down together.

第三年，他根本没去。

And I think the third season, he didn't go at all.

我记得我是搭巴士下去的。

I think it just took the bus down.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我知道那都快三十年了，其实更接近二十五年前吧。

I mean, I know it's it's was thirty year well, more like twenty, twenty five years ago.

但我还是觉得，你对这事也太随意了。

But I still and you're you're being very casual about it.

我觉得这大概就是你的风格。

I think that's your way.

不过话说回来，那时候我也比你大。

But, yeah, I mean, just even then, like, I'm older than you are.

要是我爸妈，根本不可能说：‘哦，行啊。’

And this idea that my parents would have just been like, oh, sure.

‘过几周再见’，或者‘你自己去吧’。

We'll see in a couple weeks or you're on your own.

‘给你点钱，放你口袋里就完事了。'

Here's here's some money put in your pocket.

我就说不上来了。

Like, I don't know.

你爸居然能放心让你这么干？这跨度也太大了吧？

It seems like a pretty big leap for what was your dad like that he was okay with this?

我的意思是，

I mean, what I

我觉得他挺信任我的。

think he was pretty trusting.

他了解我的性格。

He knew my demeanor.

不过说真的，也不是真就把孩子扔那儿不管了。

And to be fair, it wasn't totally leaving the kid alone.

就算在斯夸米什的河边，等他要走的时候，我们早就认识一堆人了。

Even at the river in Squamish, was like, by the time he was leaving to go do whatever he needed to do, we knew a bunch of people there.

对吧？

Right?

所以他觉得，我算是被那边的社区照看着，这么说吧，对吧？

So he had like, he knew I was sort of, like, in the hands of the community there, so to speak, right?

没错，虽然那群人看起来挺不修边幅的，但确实有人在关心我。

And it's like, yeah, it's like the loose dirtbag community, but there was people looking out for me.

我当时也就十四岁左右，对吧？

I was like 14 or whatever, right?

所以我已经够大了，能自己照顾自己，做饭、管好自己，不会干出什么太离谱的事。

So I was old enough to kind of be able to manage my own shit, cook for myself or whatever, and not do anything totally stupid.

但万一出了什么状况，我身边还是有社区的人在照应我。

But if something had gone wrong, I had I did have the community there

当然。

Sure.

有人在照看我。

Looking out for me.

对吧？

Right.

不过，是啊。

But, yeah.

不是的。

No.

这要放现在，肯定行不通。

It's definitely, like, it wouldn't fly today.

对，说真的，

Yeah, mean,

那时候可能也挺怪的。

the was probably probably weird back then too.

你觉得呢？

What do you think about it?

你现在都三十八九了，虽然没孩子，但回想起那时候，

Like now that you're, you don't have kids, but you're, you know, you're in your late thirties and looking back on that moment.

我觉得那段经历真的很特别。

I mean, I still think it was pretty special.

我的意思是，你会不会特别崇敬那段经历？

I mean, do you do you sort of revere it?

你有没有其他要

Do you have other to be

当父亲的？

a father?

我觉得自己特别幸运，真的。

I think I was super fortunate, yeah.

因为就算那时候，大多数父母都会对这种事感到不自在。

To have, because even then I think like most parents would be uncomfortable with that.

如果我以前跟妈妈说，我要去那儿待几个月，再见了，她肯定直接骂我：闭嘴，赶紧去打扫房间。

No, if I had said, even previous to that when maybe things were even looser to my mom, I'm like, I'm going to this place for a couple months, see you later.

她肯定会说：闭嘴，赶紧去打扫房间，你知道的，

She'd have been like, shut the fuck up, go clean your room, you know,

对啊。

like Yeah.

你并不是你以为的那样

It's not you think you are,

但这也不是什么稀奇事，对吧？

but It's not unprecedented, right?

确实如此。

It's like Right.

没错。

Right.

有这么些故事，你可能听说过哈米什·弗雷泽，他是斯阔米什地区著名的硬核攀岩者，和彼得·克罗夫特一起爬过很多路线。

There's stories of, you know, I don't know if you know Hamish Fraser, like, Squamish hardcore, climbed a lot with Peter Croft.

彼得·克罗夫特名气大一些，哈米什则比较低调。

Peter Croft was sort of the famous one, and Hamish was the quiet one.

他们干脆退学了，全身心投入攀岩。

Like, they freed university altogether and stuff.

有个故事说，哈米什14岁的时候，独自攀登斯阔米什的大学墙，走的是八级路线，然后拎着装备包搭便车，去七十年代的斯阔米什独自攀岩。

But Hamish, there's a story of him, like, going to solo university wall in Squamish as an eight route in I think he was 14, you know, and, like, hitchhiking down the road with the haul bag to go solo wall in in, like, seventies Squamish.

对吧？

Right?

那时候的小镇跟现在完全不一样。

Like, very different town than it is today.

对吧？

Right?

我想那是七十年代，情况确实不一样。

I guess that was the seventies, and then it was different.

我

I

不清楚。

don't know.

咱们可以跳过这个话题。

We could move on from that.

不过我觉得挺有意思的，毕竟每个人的情况都不一样，比如有些人来自家里根本不知道他们在做什么、也不关心，或者不管家里是什么状况。

But it's just Yeah, I think it's pretty fascinating because, you know, and there's kind of different ways that that happens where there's like someone who's from a place where, you know, their parents don't know what even know what they're up to or don't care or, you know, whatever your home situation is.

但你爸特别投入，又熟悉这片社区，能放心说‘他没问题’，这真挺棒的。

But it's cool that you happen to have this dad who was very active in it and knew the community well enough to be like, yeah, he'll be okay.

没错，那时候大家对社区的信任特别强，而且这种信任是有道理的，毕竟当年社区关系特别紧密，对吧？

Yeah, no, it was like a lot of faith in the community for And I mean, think that was justified, like the community was super tight back then, right?

当然现在有些地方还是这样，但想想九十年代斯阔米什那群自由散漫的攀岩圈，人真的很少。

I mean, still is in places obviously, but like, just thinking about the the sort of dirtbag community in Squamish in the nineties, it was small.

对吧？

Right?

加起来可能还不到一百个人。

It was, like, less than 100 people or something.

没错。

Right.

如果你夏天待在那里，基本上人人都认识，谁靠谱、谁不靠谱，心里都有数。

So if you spent the summer there, you did kinda know everyone, and you knew, you know, you knew who you could who you could count on and who was kind of flaky and who, you know, whatever.

对吧？

Right?

而且那时候大家都会互相照应。

Like, and people did look out for each other.

现在规模大了，也更分散了，对吧？

It's just bigger now, right, and it's kind of, like, a little more dispersed.

每个人都在自己的房车里待着。

It's like everyone's in a van somewhere.

你在克雷格会遇到人，但不再有个固定的聚集地了。

You You meet people at Craig, but it's not that there's not that central hangout spot.

营地四号也是这样，对吧？

And Camp 4 is the same, right?

早上大家都去咖啡馆，慢慢就认识了那些整个季节都在那儿的人，圈子就变得很小也很紧密。

It's like everyone's, like, at the cafe in the morning, so you kind of, like, get to know everyone that's, like there for the season and that community becomes pretty small and tight.

现在可能也差不多，不过……

It's probably the same now, but

你可以问问你的几位搭档，为这个项目多了解些背景，因为你在网络和类似事情上，简直像个谜。

Talk to some of your partners to try to get some background for this because you're you're a bit of an enigma in terms of Internet and things like that.

我觉得，作为攀岩者，这本来就是你的一部分，这个我们可以聊聊。

It's it's part of who you are, I think, as a climber, which we can talk about.

不过我确实跟昆汀·罗伯茨聊过很多次，想了解一些情况。

But Quentin Roberts was somebody I talked to a bunch of for some information.

他提到过，在优胜美地的那些年，你经历了一种特别美国式的攀岩体验。

And one of the things he mentioned about this, like, these years in Yosemite is he called it sort of like that you'd gotten this very American experience in in the sense of climbing wise.

你知道，优胜美地是很独特的。

And, you know, Yosemite is very specific.

它那种氛围、攀岩方式、路边就能爬的巨大岩壁，别的地方真找不到。

It's a very kind of there's nowhere else like it, the community, the type of climbing, the the big walls that are like roadside.

像天气这些因素，所有让优胜美地成为优胜美地的东西，跟阿尔伯塔不一样，也不是落基山脉。

I mean, these sorts of things that go into the weather, you know, all these things that make Yosemite Yosemite is not Alberta, you know, it's not the Rockies.

他说，你把这种经历带回来，正是你后来成为高山攀岩者的重要基础。

And but he said that that bringing you bringing that back here is a big foundation of who you became as a as a alpine climber.

对。

Mhmm.

你同意这个说法吗？

Do you agree with that?

你觉得，从那段经历里，你带回来的东西，跟在落基山脉长大直接攀爬的人相比，有什么特别不一样的地方吗？

And do you think I mean, what do you think you take from that experience that makes maybe that basis unique or or a little bit different than just having grown up climbing here in The Rockies?

是的，没错。

Well, yeah.

在优胜美地的那几年，尤其是高中时的前几个季节，本来就是人一生中塑造性格的关键时期，对吧？

Like, the years in Yosemite, like those first few seasons, especially in high school, they're just formative years of any person's life, right?

但对我而言，那段时光让我成长了很多，我深受那里的人、他们的攀爬风格，以及我敬仰的那些人的影响。

But especially for me, they did a lot of growing up there, and I think I was probably quite influenced by the people there, the style, the people I looked up to there.

所以我觉得你说得对，我确实带了一些跟在落基山脉长大的人不一样的东西过来，但这其实是个综合的结果，对吧？

So yeah, think you're right, there's probably something there that I carried up here that's a bit different than a normal upbringing in The Rockies, but it's a combination, right?

除此之外，那几年我也跑遍了加拿大西部，早早就在落基山脉爬了很多次。

Even outside of that, I was traveling all over Western Canada in those years, too, and I did a ton of climbing in The Rockies as well in those early years.

我直到2012年才搬到坎莫尔，但那时候我已经在落基山脉攀爬了将近二十年，只不过那时候是作为访客，周末去爬一爬，或者类似的情况——但落基山脉那种岩壁风格、松动的岩面，这些我早就熟悉了。

So I didn't move to Canmore until 2012, but by then I'd been climbing in The Rockies for almost twenty years, right, but kind of as like a as a visitor, as a weekend warrior or whatever, but the sort of the rocky style, the loose rock, all that stuff was was already familiar.

不过，尤塞米蒂的攀岩文化，我觉得确实对我产生了影响。

But but, yeah, the the climbing culture in Yosemite, I think for sure that stuck with me a bit.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我经常提到，攀岩圈很多时候都需要外来的影响才能推动发展，尤塞米蒂就是个典型例子。

I mean, it's I've it's kind of a running thing with me is talking about how a lot of times a climbing scene, and Yosemite is included in this.

我常举这个例子，它需要外部力量来推动改变。

This is one of my prime examples often is that it needs like outside influences to move it to get things done.

我就提到过，休伯特一家人就是进来后说：嘿，我们其实可以不靠装备直接爬上去。

I point out that the Huberts were the ones that came in and like, hey, we can free climb up here.

没错。

Yep.

并不是说没人觉得做不到，只是他们……

And not that anybody was saying you couldn't, but you just they

他们展示了一种全新的做法。

they showed a different way to do it.

对。

Yeah.

而且确实行得通。

And it was and it was and it worked.

当我开始跟人聊起你生活中的这部分时，我觉得他表面上像个本地小子，但可能内心早被种下了别的想法。

And it's interesting when I started talking to people about that part of your life, I was like, well, he was he was kind of this homeboy, but, you know, he had this other vision maybe that had been implanted in him.

说到我待在坎莫尔的事，我总爱开玩笑说，我是不是还算是个传奇人物——不过刚才开场没提这个。

And, you know, my running joke about me being here in Canmore, You know, whether I'm still a legend here or not, we didn't open with that.

我平时都会提。

I usually do.

我早知道你会说‘是’了。

I knew your answer already, which is yes.

但说真的，我可不是为了自夸——我来这儿的时候，就是一头扎进了这个地方。

But that was actually literally like not to like toot my horn, but that was the thing that I came up here and I, you know, went into this place that goes through.

我不懂，树根怎么就不往那些岩石质量好的地方长呢？

I'm like, aren't aren't roots going up these, like, where the good rock is?

你们老是在这些沟壑和裂缝里爬，那里的岩石条件可差多了。

You guys keep climbing in these gullies and cracks and things where the bad rock is.

你们怎么就不来这儿呢？

Why aren't you out here?

所以大家根本不太在这儿打保护点，也没人对这地方感兴趣之类的。

And so we don't really bolt or people aren't that interested in that place or whatever.

当然，我也不是改变了什么。

And not that I changed anything.

这个比喻的特别之处就在这儿。

That's the difference about this analogy.

现在的人还是不愿意离开那个岩壁。

People still don't want to leave the crag now.

是啊，根本没人关心。

Yeah, no one cares.

就算有保护栓也没用。

Even if there's bolts.

我当时就想，行吧，那我就自己来吧。

But it was like, I was like, well, okay, well, then I'm gonna do it.

这确实短暂地引起了一些关注，但我们后来也说了，还是没人去那里爬。

And, and you know, it added some influence for a short time, but we talked about how no one climbs in there still.

但关键是，你是不是也觉得，等等，为什么不去呢？

But, but, yeah, just this idea that you're like, well, wait, why not?

人们说，因为这不符合我们的做法。

And people, well, because that's not how we do things.

说到卡尔加里，你显然被吸引回来，毕竟这里是落基山脉攀岩的核心地带。

And, so, I mean, you know, coming to Canmore, obviously, you were drawn back here because it's the, like, you know, it's the seat of of kind of Rockies climbing.

但我想听听，你当初为什么选择扎根在落基山脉，而不是继续去优胜美地，或者去别的地方？你本来主要是个岩攀者啊。

But tell me about that decision to, you know, center yourself here in the Rockies as opposed to keep going to Yosemite or finding yourself, you know, you were primarily a rock climber.

听起来你确实做了一些调整。

It sounds like you made some changes.

说说你是怎么慢慢转向高山攀岩，并且选择留在这儿的？

Tell me about that evolution to alpine climbing and being here.

是的，在我高中到刚毕业那几年，生活完全围绕着优胜美地展开。

Yeah, there's sort of an era of my life from the high school years to the first few years out of high school where everything was centered around Yosemite.

那时候，所有重心都放在酋长岩上。

Well, everything was centered around El Cap.

每次就是去一趟优胜美地，尽可能多爬几条酋长岩的路线，然后回埃德蒙顿，要么上学，要么上班，看情况而定，接着再重复这个循环。

So it would be like a trip to Yosemite, climb as many El Cap routes as possible, and then go back to Edmonton, well, go to school or go to work, depending, right, And then repeat the cycle.

高中毕业后，我一边上大学，一边开着车到处跑，尤其是西南部各地。

And then after high school, I was going on, going to a 70 but also going all over the Southwest road tripping and stuff.

大概在2021年左右，我手腕严重得上了肌腱炎，差不多两年时间没法正常攀岩。

Somewhere in that period, think it was maybe '21 or so, I got quite bad tendonitis in my wrist and it prevented me from properly rock climbing for almost two years.

那段时间其实是个转折点，我完全不知道该做什么，得重新找方向，甚至不确定自己以后还能不能爬山，各种迷茫。

And so that was kind of like a bit of a transitional period, right, where I didn't really know what to do, needed to figure out a new direction, didn't know if I would ever climb again, all this kind of shit.

一度想过回学校读书，天哪，幸好没真去。

Thought about going back to school, the horror, luckily avoided that.

后来手腕慢慢好起来了。

And the wrists did start to get better.

那时候我在一家攀岩店上班，日子过得没什么起色。

Was working in a climbing shop at that time, just kind of like not going anywhere.

我开始接触滑雪，经常去落基山脉，比如从埃德蒙顿出发去那边玩。我当时就住在埃德蒙顿，时不时就往落基山跑。

I was starting to get into skiing and doing some stuff in The Rockies, like in Edmonton, so I was living in Edmonton, and doing trips to The Rockies.

我一直对高山攀岩和冬季攀岩挺感兴趣的，但从来没真正尝试过。

I'd always been kind of interested in alpine climbing and winter climbing but never really done it.

在埃德蒙顿上班期间，我开始慢慢接触这些活动。

And while I worked in that shop living in Edmonton, I was starting to dabble in it a little bit.

身体状况好转后，我就意识到该离开埃德蒙森了。那时候我参加了第一个IRATA绳索作业培训，就这样开启了新阶段——开始从事绳索作业这一行，买了辆车，把所有东西搬去卡莫恩，租了房子，心想：先试试看吧。

And the risk started getting better and it kind of was obvious I needed to leave Edmonton, and around that time I did my first IRata course, like rope access training, and sort of just like started this new phase, you know, where I started the new career, if you wanna call it that, in rope access and bought a car, drove all my shit to Canmore, got a place, and was just like, I'm gonna try this for a while.

其实我也没打算非得投身高山攀岩，只是想搬到加拿大一个攀岩者聚集的小镇，建立自己的圈子。

And I don't know I don't think that the goal necessarily was to, whatever, get into alpinism, but it was to live somewhere, like in a climbing town in Canada, and build a community there.

那时候我的目标更偏向于这个。

I think that was sort of more the goal at that time.

在那之前的好几年，我老往优胜美地跑，开着车到处旅行，说实话，我在埃德蒙顿根本没什么社交圈，虽然家里人住在那儿，但除了家人，我跟这个地方没什么联系。

Because for the years before that where I was going to Yosemite and road tripping and stuff, I definitely like I was sort of like didn't have a community in Edmonton, had family in Edmonton, but I wasn't other than the family, I wasn't really connected to the place.

我所有的朋友都在优胜美地，那些攀岩的伙伴、真正亲近的人，全都在优胜美地或者美国境内，因为那种生活太流动了，人人都在来回搬动，我始终没找到属于自己的那个社群，你说是吧？

All my friends were in Yosemite, all my climbing friends, my close personal connections, they were all in Yosemite or in The States, because it's so transient and everyone's moving around, I didn't have that sort of like I didn't have that place of community, I guess, right?

我很清楚，优胜美地永远不可能成为那样的地方，因为我根本不会住在那里，对吧？

It was sort of clear to me that Yosemite would never be that place because I was never going to live there, right?

我永远都只是个过客。

I'd always be a visitor.

而且那个圈子里的人也都是流动的，不断有人来来去去。

And then the people that were part of that community were all transient too, so they're all constantly cycling in and out.

所以我干脆下定决心，试试搬到卡莫尔住一段时间，看看能不能在那里建立起自己的圈子。

So I kind of made a conscious effort to just, like, give Canmore a try, right?

就试着在那里生活，看看能不能真的安下心来，建立属于自己的社群。

Like, try living there and see if I can build a community there.

结果呢，我现在还住在这儿，看来是真成了。

Well, and, yeah, still there, so I guess it worked.

是啊，看来是成功了。

Yeah, guess it worked.

不是，我是说，跟你熟识又一起攀岩的人都知道，你其实是这个社群里非常核心的人物，你在这儿待了这么久，从2012年到现在，都十多年了。

No, I mean, it's again from sort of talking to folks who know you and climb with you and you're a very integral part of that community actually so you and you've been there a long time I mean 2012 so over a decade.

对。

Yeah.

听你这么说，我觉得挺有意思，你心里居然还保留着一种‘圈内人’和‘外人’的区分，明明你早就融入了，却还说自己没真正进入冰雪攀岩的领域。

And it's interesting to hear you talk that I still have this, like, idea of this kind of insider outsider thing, that you hadn't I mean, even saying that you're this this Canadian Rockies climber who, you know, hadn't really gotten into sort of ice and snow.

你。

You

通常情况恰恰相反。

know, that's like, usually the opposite.

是的。

Yeah.

部分原因是我爸对这个没兴趣。

Then part of it was my dad wasn't into it.

明白了，是这样。

Okay, right.

所以早年我和我爸一起去爬山，他从来对冰攀没兴趣。

So like the early days climbing with my dad, he never got into ice climbing.

他喜欢爬山，搞高山攀登，爬那些岩壁之类的。

He was into climbing mountains, alpin climbing, climbing the bugs and stuff like that.

他从来没碰过冰攀。

He never ice climbed.

所以我直到高中毕业后才真正接触到这东西。

So I just didn't have exposure to it until after high school, basically.

高中那会儿，我们主要去优胜美地，对吧？

In high school years, was going to Yosemite and that was the focus, right?

是的。

Yeah.

所以，我后来是特意去接触冰攀的。

So, it did take sort of a deliberate effort.

那时候我就想，得亲自去试试，弄清楚这到底是怎么回事。

At some point in there, was just like, well, I've got to go try and figure this out, right?

是的。

Yeah.

你确实得去。

You have to.

你住在卡纳莫尔，简直非去不可，我去年还跟萨拉聊过，她也是刚到卡纳莫尔的时候是个攀岩者。

You live in Canmore like you almost literally have to, I mean, I talked to Sarah here last year and she did, she arrived in more or less in Canmore as a rock climber as well.

是的。

Yeah.

但那样顶多能撑两三个月，还得靠肩膀撑着。

And said, well, yeah, but that gets you through, you know, two good months with some shoulder.

是的。

Yeah.

作为攀岩者，这儿确实不是个宜居的地方。

It's a terrible place to live as a rock climber for sure.

所以是啊，咱们来聊聊这个吧。

So yeah, but let's talk about that.

聊聊最初那些尝试吧。

Let's talk about the the first, kind of forays.

我在这儿记了‘雪斑’这个词，昆汀说那次爬雪斑是我做的，我不太记得是早期还是后来的事了。

I have snow patch written down here, and ascent on snow patch that Quentin said that was something that I was don't know if that was early on or later.

对，这故事挺有意思。

Yeah, that's good story.

对，说来听听。

Yeah, let's hear it.

这事得往前推一点。

That goes back a little bit.

那应该是十一二年级之间的那个夏天。

That's like, I think that was the summer between grade eleven and twelve.

明白了。

Okay.

那时候正是优胜美地攀岩和大岩壁热潮的顶峰。

So it was like peak Yosemite and big wall enthusiasm.

那个夏天，我前半段在峡谷里，后半段，大概是八月最后三周，去爬了Bugs上一条新大岩壁路线。

That summer, I only spent half the summer in the valley and then the second half or the last three weeks or whatever of August went to the Bugs climb a new big wall.

你记得有个叫杰克·赫克托的人吗？

I don't know, do you remember a guy named Jake Hector?

不记得。

No.

他还在，不过好像不爬了。

He's still around, I don't think he climbs anymore.

他可是个特别狂热的冬季攀岩爱好者，差不多是二月那会儿。

But he was super keen heart aid climber in February kind of.

他有个网名，我想想……叫‘Bring Me Death’。

He had an internet moniker that I'm trying to remember, Bring Me Death.

你听过‘Bring Me Death’这个网名吗？

Do you remember Bring Me Death?

没有。

No.

但这好像跟这个有关。

But it seems to This

那是Super Topo时代的事了。

from the Super Topo days.

这 somehow 和我之前说的那些事有点关联。

It seems to somehow play into my aide rant somewhere.

总之，他是个很有个性的人。

Anyways, he was a character.

特别棒的家伙。

Awesome dude.

所以我那时候大概17岁，他18岁。

So I guess I would have been 17 and he was 18.

他刚高中毕业。

He had just graduated high school.

我记不清我们那夏天在谷里有没有真的爬过什么，但反正我们待了挺久，还计划去冰川地区爬一条新路线。

I can't remember if we even climbed anything in the valley, but we hung out a bunch that summer anyways and hatched this plan to go to the bugs and climb a new route.

我们本来想爬北豪瑟，结果到了才发现离停车点太远，于是改去雪斑的南壁，那儿阳光好，离公路也近，感觉更合适。

I think we wanted to climb on North Hauser, but then we got there and realized how far that was from the parking, so we went to the south face of snow patch instead, which is sunny, and that seemed nice, and closer to the road.

这完全就是优胜美地大岩壁攀登的典型特征。

All characteristics of big walling in Yosemite.

对，就是这样。

Yeah, exactly.

我们对高山大岩壁攀登根本毫无准备。

We were totally unprepared for alpine big wall climbing.

就穿着徒步鞋，拖着补给包，完全是那种老派L.CAP的装备风格。

We were just approach shoes and haul bags and total l cap style.

不过也没关系。

But whatever.

我们把一堆东西全拉了上去，选好路线，固定了绳索，带了整整两周的补给，刚往上爬就碰上了大风暴，简直被折腾惨了。

We hauled all the shit up there and scoped a line and fixed some ropes and packed, like, two weeks of crap and started up And immediately got pounded by shit while there got major storms.

我们带了大量酒精和其他一些违禁品。

Think we brought a ton of alcohol and whatever other illicit substances.

所以你们直接把优胜美地的那一套搬到了落基山脉。

So you just fully transplanted Yosemite thing to the bugs.

是的。

Yeah.

我搭档刚满十八岁，他就开车去阿尔伯塔省买酒。

And my partner just turned 18, so he drove into Alberta so that he could buy all the booze.

然后我们开车回到了不列颠哥伦比亚省。

And we drove back to BC.

总之，我觉得我们在那儿待了十四天左右，挺久的。

So anyway, I think we spent fourteen days on it or something, a long time.

我们待得足够久，以至于登山季结束了。

And basically, we were up there long enough that the season ended.

每年九月都会来一场终结季的风暴，一下雪，大家就知道攀岩季结束了，纷纷离开。

There's always a season ending storm in September where it snows and then it's like, oh, rock climbing season's over and everyone leaves.

但我们当时在第九段绳距上，索性就继续往上爬了。

But we were on pitch nine or whatever, so we just carried on.

但有趣的是，这次爬得比预想的久太多了。

But the funny part of this was basically it took way longer than expected.

而且那时候还没手机，也没InReach之类的设备，根本没法联系外界。

And again, this is like before cell phones or inReaches, obviously, and all that stuff.

结果我因为被困在第十二段绳距，赶上暴风雨，干脆就没去上高中的第一天。

So I just like didn't show up for my first day of high school because I was on Pitch 12 or something in the storm.

我爸妈当时急得不行，

And my poor parents were just like,

哦，他肯定在山里呢。

oh, he's in the bugs.

他应该没事。

He's probably okay.

他们最后联系了管理小屋的加拿大山地俱乐部，但没正式报警求救。

And they ended up actually calling they didn't call a rescue per se, but they kind of called the ACC who runs the hut.

他们联系了小屋的管理员，把消息传了过去。

And they got in touch with the hut custodian and they relayed the message.

哦，对，有几个人在雪坡上。

Oh, yeah, there's some guys on Snow Patch.

我们去瞧瞧他们吧。

We'll go check on them.

有人走出去查看了一圈。

Somebody walked out and checked.

那几个家伙挺稳的。

Glassy guys.

他们还在往上走。

They're still moving.

他们还在上面呢。

They're still up there.

所以我们花了差不多两周时间，才把这段路线登完。

So, we spent however long, two weeks or something on this wall to finish the route.

真不错。

Nice.

终于完成了，结果迟了一周才回学校，赶上高十二年级第一学期。

Got it done and got back a week late for the first semester of grade 12.

因为没去上课，好几门课都被记了缺勤。

Got kicked out of a bunch of classes because I didn't show up.

那学期课选得特别少。

Had a really light course load for that semester.

没错。

Right.

我真能想象那种感觉。

You're just like, I can only imagine.

你坐在教室里，周围都是埃德蒙顿来的普通学生，可你眼神飘远，心里想着自己刚经历了一场史诗般的冒险。

I mean, you're sitting in this class with a bunch of normies from Edmonton, and you're just like, got your faraway stare that you just went through this like full on epic.

是啊。

Yeah.

然后就问我，你暑假干嘛了？

And was like, what did you do this summer?

哦，我就是狂玩，开车去了水坝那儿，

Oh, I was partied a lot and drove my car to the dam and

说实话，我也玩得很嗨，不过方式不一样。

I mean, I partied a lot too, to be fair, but yeah, in a different fashion.

但回到高中，大家都问：你打算上哪所大学？

But yeah, it's definitely to go back to go to high school and everyone's like, Oh, where are you going to university?

你准备学什么？

What are you going to study?

我就只能回：天啊，我去优胜美地吧？

And I'm just like, Oh God, I'm going to Yosemite, right?

我真的一点想法都没有。

I have no idea.

不管好坏，至少我知道自己想要什么——如果人生的目标是找个好工作、赚大钱，那我那时候完全跑偏了，也失败了。但话说回来，十七岁的人，谁能知道自己想干嘛呢？

Which for better or for worse, At the very least I knew what I wanted, right, if the goal in life is to get a good career and make lots of money or something, then I was totally off the rails and I failed at that, but I mean, who at 17 knows what they want to do?

17岁的人，谁能知道自己将来要做什么工作呢？大家都上大学，学点什么。

Who at 17 knows what they want their career to be, and everyone goes to university and studies something?

这招对有些人管用，但我至少没花四年时间拿个没用的文凭或学位。

It works for some people, but at least I didn't like spend four years getting useless diploma or degree.

没错。

Right.

不过刚才跑题了。

Well, was a tangent.

我都没意识到刚才已经跑这么远了。

I didn't realize that that had happened so

这么早就开始了。

early.

以后还会有很多这样的情况。

There'll be more of those.

是啊，完全对。

Yeah, totally.

我的意思是，这太棒了。

I mean, it's great.

这真是个精彩的故事。

That's a great story.

我只是觉得特别有意思，因为我一向喜欢跟你们这样很早就开始的人聊天，我说的可不是那种我在健身房攀岩队的经历。

It's just so because I I always like to when I talk to guys like you who got started so early and like I said, we're not talking about, like, oh, I was on the climbing team at the gym.

你可是直接上了多段新路线，真正在里面摸爬滚打。

Like, you were well in it on a multi pitch new route.

我猜那条路线肯定被重复过无数次了。

I'm sure that's seen a ton of repeats in the bucket boots.

这些路线。

This lineups.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

这也太离谱了吧，老兄。

That's so outrageous, man.

说真的，这简直太离谱了。

It's so outrageous, actually.

我并不觉得

I don't

我觉得那些固定点现在根本达不到安全标准。

I don't think the anchors would meet modern standards.

没错。

Right.

确实如此。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

没关系。

It's fine.

你的性格啊，说白了就是那种‘咱们就这么干了’，但说实话，这真的太离谱了。

And I I you know, like, your your personalities to be like, yeah, you know, it's what we did, but it's it's absolutely outrageous.

咱们还是回头说说这个坎莫尔的事吧。

So let's cut cut back to this Canmore thing.

你一到那儿就加入了。

You drop in.

你对这个社区感兴趣，而且好像很快就融入进去了。

You're interested in this community and it seems like you connected very quickly.

通常我们跟不熟的人去攀岩，尤其是运动攀岩，心里都会有点犹豫，比如‘这人看着还行，那就一起吧’，但你倒好，一上来就要挑战高难度的高山路线。

How how did that happen in terms of like, you know, we we don't usually mind going climbing, especially sport climbing with someone that's new or that we don't know that well or like, oh, yeah, he seems like an alright guy.

有些人真敢玩，看见你有两把冰镐，立马就说：‘行啊，走吧！’

But to go up and start doing big alpinist roots is, you know, there's there's some crazy people that are like, whatever, fine, dude, you got a pair of ice axes.

走，咱们上。

Let's go.

但大多数人还是会先好好了解搭档再行动。

But most people want to vet their their partners.

那你当时是怎么进入这个圈子，开始做这些事情的？

So how did you enter into that community of of starting to do some of these things?

你的进步应该没那么快吧？

Was slower progression than that, right?

我刚搬去坎莫尔的时候，大概才勉强能领攀WI3级别吧？

Because when I moved to Canmore, was probably sketchily leading WI3, right?

那时候我根本不是攀冰手。

I was not an ice climber at all.

头两个冬天，我还像带着辅助轮一样。

The first two winters I think were you know, still had my training wheels on kind of.

我得先学怎么穿冰爪走路，再学攀冰，后来才慢慢学会在冰爪和岩壁之间切换着爬。

Like, I was learning how to climb in crampons, learning how to climb ice, eventually learning how to, like, climb rock and crampons and do all that.

那几年我完全是新手。

Like, that was all, like like, I was total beginner in those years.

但后来我

So but I

那段时间我爬得很多，也认识了几个

climbed a lot, and I had, like I had a few

在卡尔加里有一些朋友。

friends in Calgary.

我有个好朋友叫弗雷德·麦金尼斯，那几年我跟他一起爬了非常多。

I had, like, a close friend, Fred McGinnis, that I climbed a ton with in those years.

他现在住在科罗拉多。

He actually lives in Colorado now.

不过那时候，我确实跟弗雷德一起爬了很长一段时间，我们俩都慢慢成长起来，也开始尝试一些高山路线。

But but, yeah, so there was sort of a period of time there where I climbed a ton with Fred, and, like, we both kind of developed as climbers and, like, started, you know, stepping out onto alpine routes.

我们的技术水平其实挺接近的。

Like, we had pretty similar skill set.

他一开始冰攀更强，教了我很多东西。

He was, like, a better ice climber initially, taught me a ton.

所以我有一群固定的攀岩伙伴，一起积累了不少冰攀经验，先从夏季高山路线开始，毕竟岩攀那时候已经差不多上手了。

So I had this kind of, yeah, network of climbing partners that got the ice climbing mileage with and started climbing more summer alpine routes first, I guess, right, since the rock climbing was already kind of fine.

那时候就是在慢慢摸清落基山脉高山攀登的那些细节。

It was just learning the nuances of, you know, Rockies alpine.

但在卡莫尔待了大概两年后，我和弗雷德第一次去了巴塔哥尼亚，那才是我真正意识到自己在高山攀登方面还有很多要学的时刻。

But I think like maybe after two years or so in Canmore, I went to Patagonia for the first time with Fred, and that would have been the first kind of eye opening, oh I have a lot to learn about alpine climbing kind of experience.

我们去的时候还以为能像在布加布斯那样遇到晴天，好好爬岩，凭着一点基础的冰攀技能就够了，根本没准备过冬季高山攀登的本事。

We went there anticipating sunny rock climbing like the Bugaboos, I think like most people do, and with basic ice climbing skills, but not winter alpine skills.

结果天气差得要命，我们一整天都在用冰镐冰爪爬。

And then of course the weather was shit and we were just climbing on tools the whole time.

所以那趟下来，我们学到了很多。

So so we learned a lot.

我觉得大多数人去巴塔哥尼亚之前，真没想到会是这样，阿利克。

I think most people don't expect that actually, Alik, when they go to Patagonia.

他们根本没想到天气会这么差。

They don't ex I don't think they do expect sunny.

没错，其实很多人以为……

No, think there's a lot of but there's

我知道这事儿是存在的。

I a know lot that it exists.

有一大群人，他们并不是完全没预料到，但看到的那些攀岩路线照片，全都是在高压天气下拍的，人们穿着T恤，天空湛蓝。

There's large cohort of people that I mean, not fully expecting, but it's sort of like all of the pictures of the rock climbing routes are all in these beautiful high pressure systems and it's like people climbing in t shirts and blue skies.

风刮得厉害，但照片里根本看不出来。

And the winds are howling but you can't tell because it's a photo.

看起来有点像内华达山脉，带着冰川的样子。

And it looks kind of like the high sierra with the glacier.

在高压天气下，确实有可能是这样。

I mean, can be during high pressure, right?

差不多就是这样。

Kind of is.

但我们那次没遇到这种好天气。

But anyways, we didn't have that.

所以在那儿学到了很多。

So learned a lot there.

我不确定。

I don't know.

我花了好几年慢慢积累技能，结识新朋友，过了几个季节后，才渐渐认识了像伊恩和拉夫这样的人，他们后来成了我在阿尔卑斯和落基山脉攀岩路上的导师。

It's just like spent years slowly building up the skills, meeting new people, and then eventually kind of like after a few seasons started to kind of meet the people like Ian and Raf and the people that became more mentors in the alpine climbing world and in the Rockies.

不过说实话，现在回想起来，其实进展没那么慢——三年时间，我就开始爬格林伍德锁道的冬季路线了，那是2015年，算下来确实才三年。

But, yeah, I guess it wasn't I guess it wasn't was fairly quick now that I think about it because three years, and then I was climbing, like I think we climbed the Greenwood Lock in winter in 2015, so that I guess that is only three years.

这速度还挺快的。

That seems quick.

但当时感觉每一步都特别缓慢。

But it seemed like a slow progression at the time.

是啊。

Right.

没错。

Right.

这就是年轻人的底气吧。

Well, that's the that's the power of youth.

永远都觉得不够。

It's never enough.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

永远都觉得不够快。

It's never fast enough.

但与此同时，我读到一些关于你的内容，特别是伊恩的博客文章，里面提到你的时候，总在说你积累的量，也说你并不是一蹴而就，而是愿意一步步来，用一种比较传统的方式，可能受你爸爸影响，觉得这些事得慢慢学，不能跳着来。

And and but at the same time, you know, one of the things that kept coming up and and sort of reading about you and and, you know, I was reading Ian's some blog posts and things like that where you get mentioned, You know, they talk about volume, they talk about and also that you weren't actually that you were sort of willing to go through a progression, and maybe, you know, not totally leap ahead, but like you've in like kind of an old school attitude and a little bit maybe instilled by your dad of like, yeah, you got to you got to learn your way through these things.

我是说，对于你自己的成长过程，你有什么看法？确实，

I mean, do you have a comment on that in terms of your progression in There is definitely like

你一直有意识地慢慢积累技能，一层一层打基础，直到拥有足够的能力，安全地完成这些攀登。

a deliberate effort to build on skills that you have slowly and then sort of build the pyramid to the point where you have the skill set needed to get up these things and with some level of safety.

那时候我已经足够成熟，明白如果放任不管，山真的能要你的命。

I think I had enough maturity at that point to see that it's pretty easy for the mountains to kill you if you let them.

不过话说回来，你进步快，部分原因也是那时候年轻，能不停地爬。

But yeah, think part of it too for as far as you know, progressing maybe quicklier or whatever is is part of it is just being pretty young then and, like, being able to climb a ton.

对吧？

Right?

那几年冬天，我根本没干别的，全在爬山。

Basically, I didn't work at all in the winters in those years.

那时候我一连三天都爬冬季攀岩。

I just climbed and, like, back then, like, I would climb three days in a row of winter climbing.

现在呢，我爬一天冬季攀岩，至少得歇一天。

Like, now I I climb I do a day of winter climbing.

爬完一天，我至少得休息一天。

I take at least one rest day after.

通常是这样

Usually,

两次。

two.

对吧？

Right?

就拿斯坦利·哈贝尔山那种普通日子来说，对吧？

For just a normal normal day at the Stanley Hubbell or whatever, right?

那时候，我动不动就连续几天挑战头墙。

Back then, would do back to back headwall days and stuff like that.

所以当时的攀爬量，跟现在的我比起来，简直多得离谱。

So the volume was just massive compared to what it would be for an older version of me.

没错。

Right.

我也没那么小，大概二十多岁吧，年轻到根本不需要休息日。

I mean, I wasn't that young, but I guess mid twenties, so young enough that I didn't need rest days.

昨晚我看了马丁·范赫伦的幻灯片展示。

So I watched Martin Van Heeren's slideshow last night.

我们正在班夫山地电影节，这里有很多机会看到当地人的幻灯片分享，说实话，我对这些内容了解不多。

We're at the Banff Mountain Film Festival, and so there's all these opportunities to get slideshows and things from from these locals that I mean, I don't have a lot of, knowledge about.

他可是你经常搭档的人。

He's a frequent partner of yours.

他看起来有点保守，倒也不是，但他很清楚自己的极限，尽管他挑战得已经够狠了。

Seems to have also a little bit of a maybe I wouldn't say conservative, but, you know, he he understands his limits a little bit even though he pushes it pretty hard.

我还注意到，那天主持的是伊恩。

I also noticed during that, like, Ian was the moderator or the the host.

他老是拿巴里·布兰查德开玩笑，比如‘这条路线不错，但你瞧对面那条，巴里当年就是在这儿完成的’。

And then, of course, he's, you know, always throwing out these Barry Blanchard jokes like, yeah, here's this one climb, but look across at this other mile, and that's where Barry did this.

大家一听都笑起来。

And everybody chuckles.

巴里当年就是在这儿完成的。

And that's where Barry did this.

而那一代人，比伊恩还要年长一些。

And and then there's that's like the generation above Ian.

然后伊恩就沿着他们的路子走，感觉你和你这一代人也是这样。

And then Ian was sort of in his footsteps and it feels like then, you know, maybe you and your cohort.

和那些你早有耳闻的攀岩者一起开始攀岩，对你来说意味着什么？

What did it mean to you to start climbing with some of these guys that were probably someone you knew about?

你对那些比你早一代的攀岩者，究竟有什么样的兴趣？

And and what was your interest in those those generations that had come before you?

很多年轻攀岩者会觉得，我对这些事儿根本一无所知。

You know, a lot of young climbers can have the, like, I don't really know anything about it.

我根本不关心。

I don't care.

是的。

Like, yeah.

不是。

No.

不是。

No.

这上面写满了人的名字，或者

It's super person's names on this thing or

这非常有价值。

It was super valuable.

在落基山脉早期的冬季登山岁月里，能和那些前辈一起爬山真的特别宝贵，因为这种活动太讲究技巧和经验了，光靠练力量是没法真正掌握的，对吧？

Like, it was super valuable to be able to climb with those guys in those early years of, like, winter alpin climbing in the Rockies because it's such a nuanced, complicated activity that, like, you can't just sort of get strong and get good at it, right, like you could with some types of climbing.

你得靠长时间积累，还得向那些有经验的人学习，才能掌握其中的门道，对吧？

There's a certain amount of wisdom or knowledge that you can only get through mileage and then from the elders, so to speak, right?

关于如何在山里相对安全地移动，你能学的东西是无穷无尽的。

And it's kind of endless, There's no limit to the amount that you can continue to learn about how to move in those mountains somewhat safely.

所以有这些前辈在身边真的很重要，不过伊恩现在算前辈了吗？

And so having those elders or Is Ian an elder now?

当然算。

Hell yeah.

还没到那一步。

Not quite.

别开玩笑了。

Come on.

但有导师，对吧？

But mentors, right?

多出了十年以上的经验之类的。

That have that extra decade of experience or whatever.

特别宝贵。

Super valuable.

我现在也尽量努力，把一些经验传下去。

I try to make the effort now as well to try and pass a bit of that along too.

但在卡尔加里刚起步的那几季，能跟那些人一起爬山真的意义重大，因为我当时天天看加拿大登山杂志，那可是我的‘社交媒体’。

But I think in those first few seasons in Canmore, it meant a lot also just to be able to climb with those guys because I up reading Canadian alpinist journals, that was my Instagram or whatever, right?

那都是他们那一代人的事，对吧？

And it was all, like, that was their generation, right?

我记得大概是九十年代末、两千年初，那时候现代混合攀登正开始兴起，对吧？

That was when, I'm thinking late 90s, early 2000s, that was when modern mixed climbing was taking off, right?

所以这代人就是拉夫和伊恩了，对吧？

And so that is Raff and Ian's generation, right?

那时候我整天读他们攀爬凯夫隆峰和房屋峰这些冬季大岩壁的故事，他们简直就是那几年的偶像，后来我搬过来，居然能直接打电话约他们去攀岩，很快就成了伙伴。

So I was like, reading all this stuff about those guys climbing on Keffron and House Peak and whatever on these big winter rigs, so they were sort of heroes of a sort in those years, so then to be able to move out here and then just call them up and go climbing pretty quickly.

对吧？

Right?

这正是攀岩最迷人的地方，你说是不是？

Like, that's just I mean, that's the beauty of climbing.

对吧？

Right?

圈子里人不多，你的偶像啊、榜样啊，其实就住在隔壁。

Like, the community is small, and your heroes or whatever are, like, they kind of live next door.

他们离你特别近。

They're very accessible.

对吧？

Right?

但如果你是个冰球迷什么的，情况可能就不一样了。

I guess not the same if you're like, whatever, like a hockey fan or something.

对吧？

Right?

没错。

Like Yeah.

但另一点是，我自己在这行待了很久，也亲身经历过这些。这其实是一种认可——每个老一辈的人，看到年轻人上来，都会暗暗评判：这个人是不是走对了路，那个人嘛，还不确定。

But I mean, the other thing that goes into that, and also myself having been around a long time and and sort of lived that a little bit as well as that it's a stamp of approval because, I mean, every older generation, you know, they look at the guys coming up and, you know, they they kind of judge like, okay, that guy, yeah, I don't know if he's on the right path.

你知道，这个人是靠谱的。

You know, this person is.

所以当你被带进这个圈子，他们并不是那种完全把门关死的人，但确实很多人会主动邀你一起去爬山。

And so being led into that world and it's not like they have a total gatekeeping mentality, but, you know, know, a lot of people ask you to climb.

所以当有人说‘嘿，我们想跟你一起去爬’，这就等于是一种认可了。

So it's a stamp of approval to say, Oh man, these guys want to climb with me.

我觉得这更像是在你真正跟这些人搭上话之前，先得跨过一道门槛。

I think it more like it feels like gatekeeping before you break through and talk to the people.

但总的来说，大家都很愿意聊天，也很乐意交流。

But it's, for the most part, everyone's quite willing to talk and willing to engage.

是啊，愿意聊、愿意互动，甚至愿意一起系绳爬山，没错。

Yeah, but willing to talk and willing to engage and willing to rope up on something Yeah.

真正彼此依赖的时候，那完全是另一回事。

Where you guys are really depending on each other is is a totally different thing.

对。

Yeah.

私下里，我敢说伊恩能跟我们讲不少当年一起爬过山的人，那次之后就再没一起过了。

You know, and and privately, I'm sure Ian could tell us, you know, about a bunch of guys over the years that he climbed with once, you know, and that was that was good enough.

可能也没啥特别的原因，就是感觉不对劲，或者三观不合，不适合一起登那些山。

And it may not have been any specific thing, but, you know, it's just like I didn't it didn't click or we didn't we didn't sort of, have the same attitude or the right attitude to be on these mountains together.

这其实就是搭档之间的事儿。

And that's just about being partners, you know.

不过你现在已经进入了一个圈子，我听说有人管你叫‘秘密武器’，比如阿里克·伯格这种人——这可能会让你不好意思，但你现在的位置，确实让别人觉得能和你一起爬山是一种荣幸。

But, know, you've you've come into, you know, I heard things like the secret weapon, you know, that's like Alik Berg is is like someone who, you know, this might embarrass you, but it's like, yeah, you're in this position now where other people feel privileged to climb with you.

你觉得，是哪些特质让你达到了这样的地位？很多你曾经特别敬佩的人，当初甚至都不认识你。

You know, what do you think your, your qualities are that have brought you to that status for a lot of people that you formally really respected yourself when they didn't even know you?

是啊，我也不太清楚。

Yeah, I don't know.

我知道，对你这样的人问这个问题确实挺难的。

I know this is a hard one for a guy like you.

你到底给搭档带来了什么？

I mean, do you bring to the partnership?

就这么简单。

That's as simple as it is.

我老开玩笑说，

Used always joke

如果是一支国际混合队伍，不管去哪次远征，来自落基山脉的人总是负责捡最不靠谱的碎石头，而美国人则能去爬那些完美的指缝裂缝。

that if you have a mixed team and whatever international trip, the person from the Rockies always is the loose rock specialist and has to climb all the choss and the American gets to climb all the splitter hand cracks.

这说法简直又冒犯又离谱，对吧？

It's totally offensive and awful, right?

看来这就是我带来的价值，但这并不是我想要的。

Apparently, that's what I bring to the table, but it's not what I want.

我也想爬些漂亮的岩壁啊。

Just want to climb nice pitches too.

不知道。

No, don't know.

现在冬天搞高山攀登，或者咱们在这儿聊的这些事，说白了就是积累经验。

I I think at this point, this winter alpine stuff or whatever we're talking about around here, it's just mileage.

我跟一个只爬了三年的人一起去攀岩，而我已经爬了十年，那在中等难度的路线里，自然会多点经验和信心。

I'm going climbing with somebody who's you know, been doing that stuff for three years and I've been doing it for ten, then, like, you know, there's just gonna be a bit more competency, confidence, whatever on the medium.

我觉得就只是这么回事。

Like, I think that's all it really is.

对吧？

Right?

我其实算不上特别厉害的攀岩者。

Like, I'm not actually, like, a particularly strong climber.

对吧？

Right?

比如我去和昆汀一起爬，他可厉害多了。

Like, if I go climbing with someone like Quentin, like, he's way stronger.

他才是该带头冲最难那段的人，或者和拉斐尔一起爬，他的混合攀登技术比我强太多了。

Like, he's the person to lead the hard pitch or, like, climbing with Rafael, like, he's a way better mixed climber than me.

但我能整晚带绳下降，还能在特别古怪的地方找到锚点之类的。

But I can lead the rappels all night and find anchors in ridiculous places or whatever.

还有很多类似的技能，其实都很重要。

There's tons of other skills like that that just become relevant.

这靠的是登山的底子。

Well, alpin roots.

对吧？

Right?

让我换种说法。

Let me put it a little bit differently.

因为我觉得，在山上合作时，一个人的技能真的特别重要，就像你们现在做的这样。

Because I think that, like, a person's skills are a super important part of a partnership in the mountains like you guys are doing.

但同时，你们也得合得来，彼此信任才行。

But then it's also, again, like, you also have to click and you also have to trust each other.

所以我问你们一个问题。

So let me ask you this.

当你们第一次，或者最早几次，被叫去参与那种顶级线路的时候。

So the first few times or or one of the first few times you get what I like to say called up to the big leagues.

对吧？

Right?

你心里想的是，天啊，这些我过去十年里一直当成偶像的人，居然邀请我和他们一起挑战这么一条大路线。

You're like, oh, these guys who I absolutely have made my heroes over over the last, you know, ten years of my climbing career have asked me to go do this great big route with them.

前一天晚上你肯定在想，我到底该做些什么，才能真正帮上他们，除了别掉下去、把路爬完之外。

And, you know, the night before you're like, well, what am I what do I need to do on this thing to make sure that I back these guys up other than not falling and climbing?

你得带点敬业精神吧？

Like, do you bring a work ethic?

你带得动气氛吗？

Do you bring a vibe?

你是怎么想的？你得怎么做好自己在搭档关系里的那份责任？

Do you, like, make sure that you I mean, what are you thinking about as far as how am I going to hold up my end of the partnership?

天啊，我完全没概念。

God, have no idea.

你描述的这个场景，基本就是我和拉特第一次去巴基斯坦的情形。

The picture you're painting basically describes the first trip to Pakistan with Rath.

我敢肯定，当时是我主动找他一起去的。

I'm pretty sure I was asking him to go.

是他没主动联系我。

He didn't call me up.

是啊，没错。

Well, yeah.

我是说，从理论上来讲。

No, I'm saying theoretically.