Enormocast 324：伊内斯·帕珀特——人生只有一次

你能说说吗，你觉得在用逻辑和直觉、感觉之间，自己更偏向哪一边？尤其是涉及到你的自我、想达成的目标这些事的时候。

But can at all talk about like, where you think you fall in terms of like, using logic versus like, intuition or feelings about, you know, your ego and what you wanna get done and and things like that.

这个问题听起来有道理吗？

Does that question make sense at all to you?

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

当然。

Absolutely.

我特别被那种线条的美感吸引，尤其是在冬天，冰层正在形成的时候——这需要经验才能看出来，你能辨认出哪些冰壁是可以攀登的，能把这些冰块连成一条完整的路线。

I am driven by this beauty of a line like especially in the winter when ice is forming and you know this is something that comes with the experience that you see, that you are able to see the lines that are possibly climbable and connecting the pieces of ice together.

当然，从逻辑上讲，冬天根本不该去爬，但对我来说，只要没有雪崩风险，冰面反而更安全。

Of course, that's not logical to do it in the winter, but to me it is because the ice offers safer conditions if it's not, you know, avalanche risk involved.

在冰面上，我能比在岩壁上快得多。

Ice allows me to move way faster than only in rock.

它就这么悄然出现，又悄然消失，美得让人心动。

And, it's just simply a beautiful thing that appears and disappears.

在真正起攀之前，我会花很长时间盯着这座山看。

And, of course, I'm looking at the mountain for quite a bit before I'm really leaving the ground.

其实，最让人紧张的恰恰就是这段时间。

And that's actually the most scary part of the time.

一旦和队友开始爬起来，我就感觉事情真正开始了，那种犹豫和纠结也全没了。

Like, once I start climbing with my team, I feel like, you know, now it's on and there's not this hat thing going on anymore.

要是遇到这种情况，或者那种情况，该怎么办？

What happened in case this and that?

直觉是靠经验积累出来的。

So intuition comes with the experience.

以前我就一直想听从内心的声音，但那时候根本听不太清楚。

I've been always trying to listen to my inner voice back in the days, but I couldn't hear it so well.

现在我能听得清清楚楚了，因为背后积累了太多太多的经验，这东西是练不出来的。

Now I can hear it really well because the back is filled with lots and lots of experience and that's something you cannot train.

其实有很多次失败，不是因为冒险太多，而是因为决定撤退以保全性命。

It's like so many also failures, failures not in terms of risking too much, but failures in terms of taking a decision to return in order to survive.

这种事我做过很多次了。

And I've been doing that so many times.

年轻的时候，这种决定真的特别难受，现在就没那么痛了。

And earlier in my life it really hurt way more than it does now.

现在反而觉得，嗯，我挺为自己骄傲的。

Now it's more like, well, I'm kind of proud about myself.

我总能给自己重新来过的机会，等下次再来，或者换条路线试试。

I can give myself always a new chance or come back to another time or try another line.

人这一辈子，只有一次。

We only have one life.

我觉得，适时退让是一种随着年纪增长才慢慢学会的力量。

And yeah, I think running away is a strength that comes with the years and with age.

年纪大了有个好处，就是人会变得更明智。

And that's the good thing in age, you become smarter.

是的，换个角度看，你其实是在说耐心。

Yeah, in another way, you're talking about patience.

所以你正在做的，不管是哪种疗愈方式，都是在培养耐心——因为真正地退一步，告诉自己改天再来，这本身就是耐心，就是愿意等。

So you know, you are, it is working your, whatever therapy you're doing around being more patient, because literally backing off and thinking I'll come back another time is is patience, you know, if that's what it is is I'll, I'll wait.

但说实话，你嘴上说改天再来，其实很难保证真的能回来，生活不会停，这些远征花的钱和耗的精力都太多了。

And you know, truth is, is that like, can say, I'll come back another time, but you know, there's a, I mean, it's rarely a 100% that you will, you know, life moves on and those expeditions cost a lot of money and a lot of energy.

你并不是每次都能再回去的。

You don't always come back.

我从没想过如果失败了会怎样，因为——

I've never about, like, what in case I'm not succeeding because Yeah.

最好的结果就是我能活下来，这才是唯一重要的事。

In best case, I survive and that's the only important thing.

这可能是我最擅长的一点：我不受任何人，也不受自己任何压力。

And that's maybe one of my best skills that, you know, I don't feel any pressure from anyone or from myself.

那种压力根本不存在。

This is not existing.

我觉得自己很幸运，没有这种困扰。我看到很多人，尤其是登山者，都在应对外界的期望。

And I feel really privileged that I don't have this because I see this with many people, especially climbers, dealing with these expectations from outside.

我觉得，当你认真倾听自己内心的声音，感觉到这种渴望是从心底深处产生的，那么去尝试、去追求就是值得的。

And I think when you listen to yourself really carefully and you feel like the desire comes from very deep inside your heart, then it's worth to, you know, attempt and to to go for it.

但如果这并非你内心真正的想法，而是来自其他方面或他人的期望，那登山就是一件非常危险的事情。

But if that's not 100% you, but something else, someone else, I don't know, then alpinism is really a dangerous thing to do.

你之前在采访中提到了“共情”这个词，在我看过的另外几部纪录片里也出现过。

You mentioned the word empathy earlier in the interview, and it also came up in in in another couple films that that I looked at.

你提到过萨拉有一种共情的天性，这让她成为一名优秀的向导。

You talked about how Sarah has this like empathetic nature, and, you know, it makes her a good guide.

在我们最初的访谈中，还有一个要点是你意识到自己也需要在这方面下功夫，才能成为一名好向导。

One of the other features of our original interview was you're, you're realizing that, you know, you had to work on that as far as being a good guide.

不过，在伴侣关系中又是怎样的呢？

But, you know, what about in partnerships?

我听说很多冲突都是这样发生的：两个人在一起，其中一个人开始感到紧张或者不想继续往下走。

Like, it seems like I've heard of a lot of conflicts where people are together and one person, you know, is getting nervous or doesn't want to go down.

我的人生中确实经历过这样的情况。

I mean, I've had the only own situations in my life.

我常讲一个故事，我和朋友在黑峡谷爬一条非常危险的路线，两个人其实都想撤，但谁都不愿意先开口。

You know, I always talk about a story where my friend and I were climbing and it was in the Black Canyon and on a, you know, very serious route and both of us kind of wanted to go down, but neither one of us wanted to say it.

结果我们就……

And so we

那就是为什么我总觉得女孩们不会这样。

kept everything that girls don't have that.

所以我有时候更愿意和女孩们一起爬。

That's why I prefer sometimes to climb with my girls.

是的。

Yeah.

因为我终于忍不住说出来了。

Because I finally said it in in instant.

是我先撑不住，开口说：算了，下去吧。

I was the one who, like, broke and said, okay.

我撑不住了。

I'm done.

当时我在横切，那颗岩钉突然从我手里掉了出来，那可是我们唯一的保护点。

It was, this piton fell out in my hand while I was on this traverse and, like, you know, it was the only protection.

我当时心想，咱们应该没问题了。

I was like, I think we're good.

他立马就说：对，咱们下去吧。

And he was instantly like, yes, let's go down.

但说实话，得我先开口才行。

But it was like, I had to, like, break it open.

是啊。

Yeah.

我觉得在高山攀登中，最重要的技能之一就是能读懂同伴的心思，不用说太多话就能明白对方在想什么。

I think this is one of the most important skills in alpinism in mountain climbing, to feel what the other person feels like, you know, without losing lots of words.

也许在这方面，女性确实更擅长一些。

And maybe this that's something women are doing better.

我们的自我没那么强。

We're not so strong in our ego.

我觉得，只要我跟搭档说想回去，就从来没遇到过对方坚持要继续，或者反过来的情况。

I think listening to people, I've never ever had this situation that I told my partner I would like to return and my partner would say, no, we keep going or the other way around.

只要有人提出要撤，那就直接撤，这就是答案。

As soon as one person would ask for a return, that's the answer.

这唯一该做的事。

That's the only thing you do.

没有别的选择。

There's no other answer.

你不能为了可能成功、侥幸生还，就逼别人去冒险。

You cannot push someone into a dangerous situation with the chance of succeeding and hopefully surviving.

这完全是胡说八道。

I mean, that's bullshit.

在我看来，这才是让人成为好队友的关键。

That's 100% what makes a person a good teammate, in my opinion.

你有没有想过独自攀岩？不是那种无保护自由攀岩，而是用绳子 solo 之类的？

Has, like, being a solo climber been something that ever appealed to you, or or has it been a part of your life in terms of not necessarily free soloing, but rope soloing or whatever?

还是说你更喜欢有搭档一起爬？

Or is are you a partner type climber?

我绝对是那种必须有搭档的攀岩者。

I'm an absolute partner type of climber.

我喜欢徒步飞行和骑自行车，但在攀岩上，我特别享受和别人一起的经历。

I enjoy hike and fly myself biking, but in climbing I really enjoy sharing the experience.

我是个重视团队的人。

I'm a team person.

我喜欢小团队。

I like small teams.

我不喜欢 expedition 上有三四个甚至更多人，两个人最好，最多三个就刚刚好。

I don't prefer like three, four or five or more people on expeditions, but two, maximum three people is the perfect amount.

我很享受和人待在一起的时光。

I love spending time with people.

所以我觉得，选搭档时特别重要的一点是，要找那种你真正欣赏、愿意花时间相处的人，因为在山里生活不容易，不总是那么开心。

And that's the other thing why I think it's so important to really carefully look for partners that you appreciate in general, that you kinda like to really enjoy spending time with because life in the mountains is tough and it's not always just fun.

所以至少你希望身边有个性格开朗、让人舒服的人。

So at least you want to have a person with you that is kind of a fun person.

山上确实很严肃，但这种轻松的氛围，其实能帮你缓解恐惧。

It is serious up there, but, you know, this kind of fun aspect in a climb can also take fears away.

这一点真的很棒。

That's really cool too.

如果你们能一起笑，那种默契真的能大大提升士气。

If you can laugh with laugh with with each other, helps a lot to, you know, keep the spirit high.

当我回顾过去十年的攀岩经历时，你可能也不太记得那次采访了，但我记得我们之前一起在印第安溪攀岩过。

So when I was delving into the last ten years of climbing and if in just a position you, because you probably don't remember much about that interview either.

我记得那时候天气很冷，还下着雪，但我们玩得特别开心。

I mean, I think what we both remember from it is that we climbed in Indian Creek together beforehand and it was snowy and we had a really good time doing that.

但那时候你正准备和梅安一起去参加《风暴骑行》的远征。

But you were about to leave for the riders on the storm trip with Mayan.

我发帖的时候，你应该已经回来了。

I think you had got by the time I posted it, you had gotten back.

对。

Yeah.

那时候你正处于攀岩生涯的这个阶段。

So that's kind of where where you were in your climbing life.

我来印第安溪的其中一个原因就是这个。

That was actually the reason I came to Indian Creek.

一方面是为了见你，和你一起攀岩，另一方面也是为了为去巴塔哥尼亚的行程做准备。

One reason was to meet you and to get to climb with you, but I was supposed to prepare myself for that trip to Patagonia.

你是说学习怎么

You're talking about learning how

塞缝技巧。

Jamming.

得带很多装备。

Bring How to bring a lot.

幸运的是，我在《风暴中的骑手》里从来没用上过那招。

Luckily, I never had to do that in Riders on the Storm.

那真不是我的强项。

It's not my best skill.

至于烟囱攀爬，我简直烂透了。

And off with chimneys, I'm terrible.

不过说真的，那次经历对我来说挺特别的——头一回尝试这种大岩壁风格的攀登。

But yeah, with my end, that was a great experience in a way that it was a new experience for me to do a big wall style kind of climb.

我绝对不会再干第二次了。

I would never do it again.

太耗体力了，爬的路程却少得可怜，光是把那么多装备搬上岩壁、拉那么多静力绳上去，就已经慢得要命了。

It's just so much work and the amount of climbing so little considering how many, like how much gear you have to get to the face, how many meters of static rope you have to get up, how slow you are in a way.

那次之后我明白了，天啊，我真爱阿尔卑斯式攀登。

And I learned on that trip, holy shit, I really love Alpine style climbing.

背个小包，在岩壁上待个两三天，这才是完美的节奏。

A small little pack spending a couple days or three days on the wall and that's a perfect amount.

我喜欢动作利落，但不是指速度那种快。

And I love moving kind of fast, not in terms of speed.

速度对我来说根本不重要。

Speed doesn't mean a lot to me.

时间从来不是我追求的目标。

The time is never something I would go for.

但如果你能保持节奏快一点，就能在很短的时间内，趁着好天气，迅速推进一大段高山路线。

But, you know, if you are kind of moving fast, you can get really far on a big mountain phase within a short timeframe, within a short weather window.

是的。

And yeah.

不过我们在百内塔峰登顶了，那是一次特别充实的经历。

But still, we we summited in Torres Del Paine and it was a really rich experience.

我们不是全程自由攀登，但考虑到我很久没在花岗岩上爬这么难的路线了，能完成它还是挺自豪的。

We did not free all the pitches, but it was a proud idea considering how far away I've been from climbing that hard in, you know, in granite.

对。

Yeah.

但那之后，我真有种感觉，嘿，我想再回喜马拉雅。

But after that, I really got the feeling, hey, I I wanna go back to the Himalayas.

我想待在基地营，就和一小队人，去人少、偏僻的地方。

I wanna be in a base camp just with a small team, less crowded places, remote places.

过去十年，我大部分时间都在这样的地方。

That's where I've been a lot in the past ten years.

对。

Yeah.

在吉尔吉斯斯坦、中国、尼泊尔、加拿大落基山脉，还有巴芬岛——我记得是那儿吧？

In Kyrgyzstan, China, in Nepal, in the Canadian Rockies, in Baffin I believe or was it before?

不管怎样，没被攀登过的地形总是让人惊叹，我实在接触得太少了。

Anyways, unclimbed terrain is always wow, something I'm not getting enough about.

最近我一个人去了挪威，因为那儿有几个朋友，我想去看看，那一个月是我人生中最棒的时光之一。

Like I've been recently in Norway just by myself because I have a bunch of friends there that I wanted to visit and I had the best month, one of the best months of my life.

我们一块儿完成了好几条新路线，都是又长又陡的，我朋友们虽然嘴上说不担心，其实心里也没底能不能完成。

We were like doing a bunch of first ascents, big lines and steep lines that my friends were kind of not worried about, but worried about they couldn't do it.

最后他们明白了，你得努力去让它成真，你知道的。

At the end they learned, you have to try to make it work, you know.

他们都是超强的攀岩者，却根本不相信自己能做到。

They were so strong climbers, but they would not believe they can do it.

那次经历真不错，让我带挪威朋友们走进了我世界的一部分，也让我下个冬天回去，把之前没完成的项目做完。

And yeah, that was a really good experience to show my Norwegian friends in kind of a part of my world and to go back and next winter and finish some projects that we didn't do at the end.

但我每次离开一个地方，都会带着新的想法，因为探索一个新地方要花太多时间和精力。

But yeah, I always leave places with new ideas for next time because learning about a new place is so much time and effort.

一旦你熟悉了某个区域，有了明确的目标，事情就简单多了。

And once you know an area, it's so much easier once you have an idea what you want to do.

现在挪威已经不是那个冬天长达三个月、到处都是冰的地方了。

You can use the shorter windows and Norway is not the country anymore where you have three months winter with lots of ice around.

就连挪威也逃不过气候变化，冰况再也不像以前那样有保障了。

Like even in Norway, there's a climate change going on and ice is not as guaranteed anymore as it was back in the days.

我来过这个国家这么多次，每次还是被它的壮美和偏远震撼到。

I've been in this country so many times and I'm always blown away by the beauty and how remote it is.

一个月里能见到几个攀岩者，就是平时一起攀岩的那些人。

Just to see a couple climbers in a month, like basically the people you go climbing with.

是的，真的很棒。

Yeah, really cool.

还有太多地方等着去探索了。

There's so much more to explore.

简直不可思议。

It's crazy.

斯堪的纳维亚在我最爱的地方里排第一。

Scandinavia is on the very top of my favorite list.

你提到那些给自己设限的攀岩朋友，后来有人进来，帮他们打破了这些限制，这真的很棒。

It's cool that you were talking about these climber friends that kind of had put limits on themselves and then, you know, you someone comes in and and kinda house them break that.

我经常说，当一种文化已经固化，定下了哪些事能做、哪些不能做，这时候需要新视角的介入。

And I I've often talked about that a lot of times that new eyes have to come in to a somewhat static, you know, culture that's made these decisions about what can and can't be done.

你正好扮演了这样的角色——说真的，你打破了僵局，让大家看到，原来事情还可以有别的看法。

And and it's cool that you got to do that actually to to be that kind of person that, you know, pun intended breaks the ice, so to speak, and says, no, no, no, these here's some here's some new ways to look at stuff.

是的，那真的特别棒。

Yeah, that was really cool.

挪威本身人口就不多，攀岩者也相当少。

I mean, Norway doesn't carry many people in general and doesn't have a lot of climbers.

挪威人的那种态度，我真的很欣赏。

And for sure, the mentality of the Norwegians is something I really care about.

他们特别低调，从来不夸耀自己能做什么。

Like they're so modest, so like, you know, not talking lots about what they can do.

但最后你一看，才发现他们其实厉害得很。

But at the end you see they're really like, wow, they can do a lot.

我更喜欢这种态度，而不是那些嘴上说得多、实际没干多少事的人。

I kind of like this mentality versus the mentality of people talking a lot, but not getting done much.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

马可·普雷茨尔管这叫‘美味的对话’。

That's what is Marco pretzels is the tasty talk is what he calls that.

我一向很喜欢这种说法。

I've always loved that.

不是这样的。

No.

在挪威根本不存在什么‘美味的对话’。

There's no tasty talk in Norway.

绝对没有。

No way.

对。

Yeah.

我们再来聊聊你接下来想拓展的方向吧。

So let's talk a little bit about, again, this sort of expansion of what what you wanna do.

你从巴塔哥尼亚的大岩壁回来后，就觉得这事儿真不适合我。

You came home from this big wall experience in Patagonia, like, yeah, that's not for me.

我想换个地方。

I wanna move.

说实话吧。

I mean, let's face it.

那些岩壁最让人难受的就是老得原地干等着，你知道的，一动不动地发呆，一动不动地等，对我来说就是这样。

Like the the the miserable thing about those walls is sitting still on them, which happens a lot, you know, sitting still blank, sitting still waiting, sitting still is to me.

说到底，这一直是攀岩最烦人的部分，尤其是天冷的时候。

I mean, it's always been the miserable part of climbing, especially when it's cold out.

所以，我开始想，不如换个方式，去探索新的地方——这也是我常听到的想法，而不是待在偏僻的远程地带，身边有个你特别信任的搭档。

So, you know, coming away from that thinking like, want to go and move and find new terrain is another thing I keep hearing, you know, versus sensor, remote places with a few people, a strong partner with you have a lot of faith in.

能说说你那次成功的喜马拉雅探险吗？

So tell me about like maybe a Himalayan Expedition that was in this case, you know, a success.

当然，我们也可以聊聊那些你不得不放弃的远征。

We can talk about ones that you had to walk away from too.

但那种感觉，你

But that kind of in your

当然了。

mind Definitely.

过去十年确实如此。

The last ten years Definitely.

是的。

It.

是的。

Yeah.

我确实想聊聊一次重大的失败。

I definitely want to talk about a huge failure.

不过呢。

But, yeah.

我们接下来谈这个吧。

Let's do that next.

走吧。

Let's go.

咱们来聊聊成功吧。

Let's go success.

先说说这次成功吧。

Let's go first with the success.

但我现在说的这座山，其实我之前已经失败过两次。

But that mountain I'm talking about now is actually a mountain I've been failing twice.

那座山在中国和吉尔吉斯斯坦的交界处。

And it was in China, Kyrgyzstan, right at the border.

它叫基西拉什卡，以前没人听说过这座山。

It's called Kisilaska, a mountain people haven't heard about before.

我第一次去的时候也没听说过，当时我被它东南侧1300米长的一条完美冰壁深深吸引——那是座近6000米高的大山，冰壁全是水冰。

I haven't heard about before the first time I went, and I was so, like, driven by this perfect ice line at this 1,300 meters southeast face, water ice on a big mountain, like almost 6,000 meters high.

那种感觉就像在加拿大落基山脉爬冰，只是海拔更高、更偏远。

I like almost like climbing ice in the Canadian Rockies, but just high elevation and so remote.

是的，我分别在2010年和2011年两次尝试都没成功。

Yeah, I've been failing there in two years, like 2010 and '11.

我当时真觉得再也不回去了。

And I actually thought I'm not going back.

这种事应该让别人去尝试。

I should other people do it.

我走之后、我再去之前，好多队伍都试过，但没人成功。

Many other teams attempted it after I left, before I came, and no one succeeded.

2016年，我认识了来自斯洛文尼亚的卢卡·林利希。

And in 2016, I met Luca Lindlich from Slovenia.

当我跟他聊起这座山时，他一点都没犹豫，直接说：必须去。

And when I shared my opinion about this mountain, he was like, absolutely, there was no question mark.

他就是一句话：走，干就完了。

He was just, let's go, let's do it.

我们这次出发，最终成功登顶了。

And we be on this trip, we succeeded.

那一次的条件好到没法再好了，团队也是我在这类地形里能想到的最完美的组合。

It was like the best conditions we could ever imagine, the best team I could ever imagine in that kind of terrain.

我们后来成了生活中的伙伴，这绝对是我在职业生涯中最难忘的时刻之一。

And we became partners in life, which was, yeah, for sure a highlight of my career.

回过头看，我也为自己感到一丝敬意，毕竟我敢第三次挑战这座山。

Also looking back to looking towards myself with a little bit of respect and courage to attempt a mountain the third time.

每次远征都得持续六周。

Like, it's always a six weeks expedition.

路上花销大、折腾多，但我们还是办成了，真的觉得一切都值了。

It's a lot of traveling and money involved, but we made it work and I was really like, well, worth all the effort.

从前几次远征中学到的东西太多了，我实在舍不得放弃再试一次的机会。

What I've been learning from the previous expeditions so much that I thought it would be a shame to not attempt again.

这次是我唯一一座三次尝试的山峰。

So they have because this was my last well, my only mountain I ever attempted on three trips.

当然，我在阿尔卑斯山也登过其他高峰。

So there was some other peaks I climbed in the Alps.

我和卢卡还一起去过阿拉斯加和加拿大，比如费伊山——你可能听说过，那条路线是和布雷特·哈灵顿一起完成的，也是为了纪念马克·安德烈，他是卢卡和布雷特的挚友。

Also together with Luca, we've been in Alaska, we've been in Canada, Mount Fay, maybe you have heard about this big line together with Brett Harrington as a also as a memorial route to Marc Andre, who was a very good friend of Luca and Brett's partner.

我觉得这真是个了不起的成就。

So that was a really good achievement, I'd say.

回头想想，真没想到我们做得这么好。

Something I look back like, wow, we did a really good job.

我和卢卡现在不再是生活伴侣了，但各自依然都是登山者，独立而坚定。

Luca and I, we are not partners in life anymore, but each of us is still alpinist in a way, an individual itself.

我身边有很多很棒的伙伴，经常一起爬山。

So I do have lots and lots of great people I go climbing with.

毕竟一起在山上待了那么多天、那么多周、那么多月、这么多年，不用多说，彼此都懂。

Of course, when you spend so many days and weeks and months and years together in the mountains, you know each other without talking much.

这种默契对我们俩来说是巨大的优势，让我们清楚彼此能走多远。

And that was a huge benefit for the both of us, knowing how far we can go together.

但我们也在2018年左右，在西夏邦马南壁遭遇过失败，差点丢了性命。

But we also failed and almost lost our lives in Sisapangma South Face, and that was in 2018, I believe.

那是我最后一次去喜马拉雅山区的远征。

My last expeditions to the Himalayas.

从那以后我就再没回去过。

Since then I haven't been back.

从那以后，我也没想过要再回去。

And since then it didn't feel like I wanna go back.

那段经历一直深藏在我心里。

It's still deep inside.

那次的经历实在太吓人了。

Like this experience was just too scary.

但那是我唯一一座超过六千米、接近八千米的山。

But it was my only mountain higher than 6,000 than 8,000 meters.

我们最终没能登顶。

And we never reached the summit.

我们在雪崩中差点丢了性命。

We almost lost our lives in an avalanche.

我们拼命逃跑，既震惊又懊悔，意识到自己的决定有多糟糕。

And we were running away, both shocked and also shocked by how wrong our decision was.

我们俩都觉得选的扎营地点挺不错，结果那地方根本就是错的。

Like, we both thought we did a good decision with the place we put up our tent, but it was definitely the wrong spot.

在那种高海拔环境下，我对自己有点失去信心了。

I lost trusting myself a little bit in that kind of environment, in the very high ranges.

超过六千米以后，我从来没觉得真正舒服过。

And I never felt really great higher than 6,000 meters.

所以这也是为什么，我决定把八千米以上的世界留给别人去挑战。

So that's another reason I probably decided to keep this world of 8,000 to other people.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，那几年你一直在不断突破，看起来就是一路往上冲，这很自然——每个登山者都会想，既然低海拔能搞定，那就试试更高的、再更高的地方。

I mean, that's just you were pushing and pushing, it it seems like, in those years, and that was a a obvious, you know, step is to let's try to do what we've been doing, you know, I mean, I think that's every Alpinist is like, let's let's try to do what we've been doing lower elevations on something even bigger and even bigger and even bigger.

对我来说，变老不仅是身体上的变化，也是心理上的。

And, you know, I mean, for me, the aging process, it's physical, but it's also mental.

我也在不断挑战自己，虽然远没有你那么极端，但我的这种状态，也差不多到头了。

And, you know, that kind of pushing and pushing for me also, you know, in my own much more humble way than what you've been doing, but also kinda ended.

我以前以辅助攀登和大型岩壁攀登出名，这点我完全可以提出来。

And I and I, you know, I I can cite with, you know, I'm known for aid climbing and the the big wall climbing back in the day.

我有一条特定的路线，做完它之后，我就觉得：行了，我就停在这儿，心满意足了。

I mean, I have a specific route that I I did as, a final thing of like, this is, I'm good with this.

我把自己想做的事都做完了，当时就是冲着A5级别的路线去的，反正就是想看看，还能再爬多少段吓人的陡坡。

Like, I've done all the things that, I've been, in this case, it was pushing towards that, A5 thing or whatever that like, well, how many more like awful scary pitches can I do?

我最后决定收手了，但这种决定需要自我反思，就像你一样，那次差点出事的经历，才让你真正醒悟。

And I just, I made a decision to stop, but, you know, it takes some sort of like that self reflection to realize that and like you had a, you know, a very close call that that made it happen.

但能放下这些，不再半夜醒来还想着非得在八千米山上证明自己，这种成熟的心态，不是人人都有的。

But being able to walk away or whatever from that and not sit, wake up at night going think thinking I have to prove myself still on this 8,000 meter thing has a level of maturity to it that not everybody sees, you know.

以前就像你说的，我们互相较劲，但也频频成功。

It used to be like how you said, like, were pushing each other quite a lot, but we were also succeeding a lot.

几年之内，我们俩几乎被接二连三的成功压得喘不过气。

And I think we both got almost overwhelmed with all the success within a few years only.

突然间，事情就发生了。

And all of the sudden, boom, it happened.

所以，你会突然意识到，在这座山的世界里，我们有多渺小，事情发生得有多快。

So, I mean, then you get get a feeling like how small we are in this world of the mountains and how fast it can happen.

说实话，我并不觉得有什么非改不可的。

So, well, I don't feel like I'm I'm I would like to change anything or a lot.

我只是对那种受苦的部分提不起兴趣了。

It's just that I don't feel so attracted to this suffering part.

参加登山远征意味着要背着沉重的装备徒步好几天。

Being on expeditions means hiking in for days with heavy packs.

那种过程才是真正的煎熬。

That part is suffering.

它曾经压坏过我好几节椎间盘，现在下面能用的已经不多了。

It's crushed some of my discs in my life, so I don't have many discs down there anymore.

这肯定是我不再想参与那种极端艰苦登山任务的原因之一。

That's for sure one reason I kinda don't feel attracted to this really, really tough mountain missions anymore.

还有，连续好几天待在寒冷里，睡在寒冷中，早上醒来，得从湿透的睡袋里把自己一点点扒出来，一点舒适感都没有。

And yeah, staying in the cold for day after day and sleeping in the cold, waking up in the morning, getting, peeling yourself off a kind of wet sleeping bag, limited with comfort.

我的意思是，其实也不需要太多舒适，但那几年确实是过得最艰苦的。

I mean, still don't need much comfort, but it was a few years with the least amount of comfort.

现在感觉确实有点不一样了。

And, yeah, now it feels a bit different.

我依然热爱，非常热爱自由攀登。

I still love, absolutely love free climbing.

当你提到四度或五度的难度时，我完全能体会到那种感觉。

Like when you say a four or a five, oh, I I can feel that.

这确实是我现在做的事——当然不是五度，而是借助工具往上爬。

It's really like what I'm doing, not a five, of course, but aiding something up.

但为了能彻底自由地走通我之前开辟的路线，这对我来说是一种特别的回报。

And but in order to free the line that I've been putting up, that's like a special reward to me.

最难的部分、最辛苦的活儿差不多已经干完了，现在才是真正享受的时候。

Like the hard part, like the work part is kind of finished, but now the fun part can start.

所以，为阿尔卑斯山或其他地方开辟新路线，依然是我无比热爱的事。

And so, yeah, putting up new routes in the Alps or in other places of the world is still something I absolutely love.

如果我没爬过自己开辟的路线，我还是会想回去把它完成。

And when I haven't climbed a route that I've been putting up, I would still want to go back and do it.

我觉得我52岁了，但还没到极限。

And I don't think my age of 52 is a limit yet.

也许我太乐观了。

Maybe I'm too positive.

但我依然充满好奇。

But I'm still curious.

还是特别忙。

Still, like, super busy.

结束了。

It's over.

这次采访只是为了让你了解一下。

Interview is to just let you know.

完了。

It's done.

就到这里了。

This is it.

谢谢你，克里斯。

Thank you, Chris.

你真是太好了。

You're very, very kind.

我们确实如此。

We do

我喜欢这样，我比你大三岁，咱们就这么继续下去吧。

this I like this, things I'm three years older than you, so let's just keep it going.

继续。

Going.

但还是一样。

But it's still the same.

我每次和年轻人一起爬的时候，其实大多数时候都是和年轻人一起爬。

I always think when I climb with younger people, I usually climb with younger people most of the time.

当然。

Of course.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得他们会背更重的包。

I think they would carry the heavier pack.

以前我们就是这么做的。

That's how we did it back in the days.

当我比队友年轻的时候，我总是背最重的包。

When I was younger than my climbing partners, I would carry the heavy pack.

但现在最年轻的那些人，再也不愿意背重包了。

But the youngest, they don't wanna carry the heavy pack anymore.

所以我还是得背最重的包。

So I'm still carrying the heavy pack.

尊重长辈。

Respect your elders.

你怎么了？

What is wrong with you?

他们都太娇气了，伊内斯。

They're all too soft, Ines.

他们都太娇气了。

They're all too soft.

我最近跟德国登山队的那个年轻女孩一起爬山，她简直太厉害了。

I've been climbing with the young girl from the German Alpine team, like, she's crashing it.

但她比我家儿子还小呢。

But she's younger than my son even.

她才23岁，人特别好。

She's 23, and she's absolutely lovely.

我特别喜欢和她一起爬山，但总忍不住像当妈一样操心，老想说‘别那样做’‘这地方挺危险的’。

And I love so much to climb with her, but it still feels like I'm her mom, you know, I have this mom feeling, it's like, Oh, don't do that, and, Oh, this could be scary.

但同时我也想鼓励她，让她相信自己，知道她完全能做到。

But at the same time, I'd like to push her and give her the confidence and the feeling you can do it.

这对我来说是个挺难把握的平衡——想用我的经验和知识帮她成长，又怕推得太猛，让她受伤什么的。

It's like a really tricky part in myself to, you know, push that young person in a way to help her growing with my knowledge, with my experience, but not push her too much to, yeah, you know, to get injured or something like that.

这确实挺难的，但我特别喜欢这种感觉。

It's a tricky one, but I love it.

是的。

Yeah.

这中间的差距可真不小。

That's that's pretty that's pretty big gap.

这还挺有意思的。

That's that's pretty fun.

我现在的攀岩跟以前不一样了，不像以前那样挑战那么多高难度的，但还是经常跟年轻人一起爬。

I mean, I don't climb like you do anymore, in terms of big so many big things, but, of course, I end up climbing with younger people as well.

攀岩这项运动吧，有个挺有意思的现象，就是年纪差个二十来岁的搭档一起爬，那种感觉挺特别的。

Sport climbing and things like that has its own, you know, hilarity of of a guy who's 25 or thirty years older than his partner kinda kinda thing.

不过我觉得，说起来可能有点老生常谈，但跟年轻人一起爬、理解他们的心态和方式的变化，确实能让人保持年轻，不至于跟不上时代。

So but, you know, I think it there's, you know, it's sort of cliche, but it keeps us young for sure to to not just climb with them, but to to understand the change in attitude and the change in approach and and all the things so we don't And

我们从他们身上也学到了很多。

we learn as well a lot from them.

攀岩其实是一辈子都在学习的过程。

Like like, it's climbing is a lifetime learning process.

一个不断学习的过程。

Process.

年轻人身上，你也一样能学到很多。

And young people, you also learn a lot.

是的。

Yeah.

真的很棒。

It's really cool.

我猜德语里肯定有个特别贴切的词来形容老顽固，说不定‘curmudgeon’就是了。

I would imagine there's some fabulous German word for curmudgeon and maybe curmudgeon is it.

我不太确定。

I don't know.

你知道‘怪老头’是什么意思吗？

Do you know what a curmudgeon is?

不知道。

No.

在英语里？

In English?

完全没听说过。

No idea.

就是那种老是觉得以前什么都好、现在样样都不如从前的固执老头。

It's just the old cranky person that everything used to be better and now it all sucks.

你明白吗？

Do you know?

有没有一种说法能表达这个意思？

Is there a way go gonna be like Yeah.

我觉得在攀岩圈里，这种人还挺典型的。

I mean, I think it's pretty classic in climbing though to have Yeah.

就是看年轻人，觉得他们根本不明白，不够这也不够那的，觉得现在攀岩都没意思了之类的。

You know, like, to look at the younger generation and they don't get it and they don't they aren't as this or they aren't as that and and you know, climbing sucks now or whatever.

但对我来说这很重要，我觉得《Enormocast》这个节目过去十五年一直让我保持着兴趣，我自己也有点老派，有时候真想说：你们啊，别那么娇气，得 tougher 一点。

But it's important to me and I think that this project, just the Enormocast itself in the last fifteen years is is, you know, the thing that's one of the things that's kept me tuned in and I have my, you know, I have parts of my attitude that are, you know, curmudgeonly, as we say, are like a little bit like, oh, come on, you guys, like, let's let's be tougher.

得像我们当年那样才行。

Let's be like more like like we used to be.

不过总体上我还是挺轻松的，听你这么说，你也一样。

But, generally, I've kept it pretty light, and it sounds like you have as well.

是的。

Yeah.

我上周刚在意大利的一个电影节上同台，台上九位登山者，比如西蒙·吉特尔、西蒙·梅斯纳，还有其他人。

I've been recently sharing stage in a film festival in Italy just a week ago, and we were nine Alpinists on stage, like Simon Gittel, Simon Messner, some others.

又是西蒙们？

So more Simons?

不是更多西蒙，是阿莱斯·查森，还有其他人，不过主题是过去的登山和现在的登山。

No, not more Simons, but Ales Chasen and names, you know, but also And Steve it was about like Alpinism back in the days and Alpinism today.

他们试图把不同世代的人结合起来。

So they tried to combine the different generations.

我站在了世代的另一端。

I was more on the other end of the generations.

我当然不觉得自己像奶奶，但现场确实有史蒂夫和我这样的老一辈。

So of course, I don't feel like a grandmother, but like, of course, there was Steve and myself.

于是大家就问，我们怎么看年轻一代在登山领域取得的成就。

Then this question was how we look towards the young generation, what they are achieving in Alpinism.

他们这些新世代，跟我们有什么关系？

How what does it make with us?

现在的事情是怎么做的，跟过去相比又有什么不同？

How would we see things getting done today versus back in the days?

我真的很震惊，因为史蒂夫在台上当着所有人说，我不再爬山了，也根本不关心年轻人爬山的事。

And I was really shocked because Steve said on stage to everyone, you know, I don't climb mountains anymore and I don't care about young people climbing mountains at all.

我当时心想，天哪。

And I was like, oh my God.

我的意思是，只要我还爬得动，我就会一直是个登山者，一直去爬山。

I mean, I for sure will always be a climber and climb mountains as long as I can.

当然，年龄会告诉你，你现在还能做到什么程度。

And of course, age would tell you which level you're still able to do.

但我为他感到很难过，因为这感觉像是一个彻底翻篇的章节，要是我，肯定会疯掉。

But I felt so sad for him because, like, this seems a chapter that is so that's so finished and I would go crazy.

你知道，登山就是我的人生，也永远会是我的人生。

Like, you know, climbing mountains has been my life and will always be my life.

我真的替他感到惋惜。

I feel really sorry for him.

在台上，还有一位年轻的参与者，来自斯洛文尼亚的年轻登山者。

On stage, there was also a young participant, a young alpinist from Slovenia.

我最近又参与了皮尔·莱多奖的评审工作。

And I've been part of the Pier Ledor jury recently again.

他们让我为女性特别奖项做出选择。

And they asked me to make a choice for the female, special female mansion.

我当时就想，天啊，他们在喜马拉雅山登了一条完美的阿尔卑斯式路线，那是一座从未被人登顶的山峰，地点都无人知晓，风格简直完美到极致。

And I was like, wow, they did such a perfect alpine line in the Himalayas, unclimbed peak, unknown place, like in the best style you can imagine.

其中一位还亲自来参加了这个电影节。

And one of them came to the film festival as well.

但就在她即将临产的前几天，突然发现自己怀孕了。

But now all of a sudden she was pregnant, like just a few days before giving birth.

看到这些年轻女性依然勇往直前，同时又在规划自己的家庭生活，而不是觉得登山只是过去的事，真的特别棒。

And that was really like so cool to see young women going for it, but still planning a life as a family and not thinking about that was my past.

那可是我当妈妈之前的生活。

That was my life before I became a mom.

但她们依然把自己看作是登山者。

But still seeing themselves as climbers after.

是的，这真的特别令人感动。

Yeah, that was really cool.

我得去关掉我的土豆汤了。

I need to turn off my potato soup.

不好意思。

I'm sorry.

等一分钟。

One minute.

克里斯，我们能休息一小会儿吗？

Chris, can we do a small little break?

好。

Yeah.

当然可以。

Course.

mashed potatoes。

Smashed potatoes.

抱歉。

Sorry.

关掉火。

Turn it off.

你保存了吗？

Did you save it?

保存了。

Yes.

没来得及吧？

Wasn't too late?

太好了。

Oh, good.

都按时完成了。

All on time.

是的。

Yeah.

别乱动德国土豆汤。

Don't fuck with the German potato soup.

很高兴几周后终于又能做饭了，因为

I'm so glad I'm able to cook again after a couple of weeks because

我能行

I can

用我的双手，两只手都能用。

use my hands, both of them.

你之前提到过，在山上遭遇雪崩，差点没命，那件事对你来说特别震撼，对吧？

You know, you talked about how shocking it was for you to have this, you know, thing happened to you in the mountains, this avalanche got so close to dying.

我看过你在Epic TV上的那期采访，里面有些片段，你谈到当时有多震惊，你们好一阵子都说不出话来，那件事真的彻底改变了你们的态度。

You know, I watched an interview that you did on Epic TV about it and in a little bit of footage in there and you talking about how shocking it was and how like you guys couldn't talk to each other for a while and like it just just was really changed your attitudes.

不过还有一件事，我觉得是在《5050》那部电影里提到的。

But one other thing in the in I think it was in the 5050 film.

好像有句话是说，带着失去的朋友的记忆去攀爬。

There was some quote about like climbing with the knowledge of friends we've lost.

对吧？

Right?

Sarah 曾经上过这个节目。

Sarah's been on the show.

我们详细聊过那个导览事故，就是那位向导遇难的事，萨拉总觉得某种程度上是自己负有责任。

We talked at length about, you know, the the guiding incident where a guide was killed and that Sarah felt, you know, responsible for in her own way.

你过着这种山地生活，住在这样一个代价随时摆在眼前的地方，同时你还要飞行，而飞行也有它自己的风险和代价，这些对你来说意味着什么？

So what does that mean to you in terms of like, you have lived this mountain life, you live in a place where where the costs are, you know, obviously in your face, and you also fly, which has its own costs that that happen around you.

当你说到‘带着失去的朋友的记忆去攀登’，这句话对你来说到底意味着什么？

So what did that mean to you when you said the knowledge, like climbing with the knowledge of friends we've lost?

这确实是个很难回答的问题。

Yeah, it's a tough question.

最近我们和始祖鸟团队聊得特别多。

We've been talking a lot in our team with Arc'teryx recently.

过去几年里，我们失去了太多运动员，每次都很痛心。

We lost too many of our athletes in the past years, and it's, like, always, like, so painful.

我不知道该怎么回答你的问题，如果这还能算个问题的话。

I don't know how to answer your question if there is any question.

品牌给了我们很多心理上的支持，我能明显感觉到他们真的在用心照顾运动员。

We do get lots of support, like mental support from the brand, and that's really something I can see the brand taking really care on the athletes.

每次开会，他们都会提醒我们，别太拼命，保命最重要。

They always, in every single meeting remind us that we should not push it too much in order to survive.

他们只希望我们能活着，尽可能长久地追逐梦想。

That's all they expect us to survive and to live our dreams as long as possible.

这真的让我很感动。

So that's really cool.

从合作一开始，我就觉得这个品牌真的对路。

So I've got the from the beginning of this partnership, the feeling that's the right brand to work with.

我很感激能成为这个团队的一员。

And I'm really grateful for being part of that team.

我之所以和他们待了二十五年，甚至更久，肯定是有原因的。

And for sure, there's a reason I have been with them for twenty five years now or even longer.

天啊，我之前都不知道。

Wow, I didn't know that.

真的吗。

Wow.

这真是段很长的品牌合作了。

That's a long brand partnership.

简直是我听过的最长的了，除了可能像康拉德和北面那样。

It's like the longest I've almost ever heard, except for maybe like Conrad in North Face, you know.

是的，没错。

Yeah, yeah.

不，还有整个运动员团队，我们经常谈到这一点，这确实帮了大忙。

No, it is also the team of athletes, we are talking a lot about that, and this helps quite a bit.

至于说，我得为和我一起登山的朋友或同伴的死负责，这种想法简直是最糟糕的。

And, of course, the idea or the imagination, I am responsible for a friend's death or a person's death I'm climbing with is the worst ever.

我的意思是，死亡本身是一回事。

I mean, dying is one thing.

如果你自己死了，大概很快就结束了。

If you die yourself, it's done, I guess, pretty quick.

但要是背负着觉得是自己害了别人的责任感活下去，我真不敢想象那是什么感觉，想到莎拉有这样的感受，我就特别特别难过，因为她根本没责任。

But living with this feeling of being responsible for something happened to someone else, I have no idea how you would feel and I feel so, so sad for Sarah that she feels this way because she's not responsible.

但当然我们会这样想，也许这也是为什么和伴侣一起参与重大登山任务会格外艰难——你根本不想看到对方出事。

But of course we do and maybe that's also a reason that makes it even harder in a way to go climbing with your life partner in serious missions, because you don't don't wanna see your partner dying.

这绝对是最糟糕的场景，或者说是卷入其中。

This is the worst ever scenario or being part of it.

是啊，太疯狂了。

Yeah, crazy.

但归根结底，我们终究是在为自己而做这些事。

But at the end, we always remember ourselves.

我们之所以投身高山活动，是因为它给了我们某种东西——激情、渴望。说实话，我这四周没爬山，头几周还真没觉得想，但现在又特别想再爬了。

We do this kind of activities in the mountains because we it fulfills us with something, I guess, with passion, with desire, with you know, now since I haven't been climbing for four weeks now, I kind of didn't miss it the first couple weeks, but now I'm getting really, you know, hungry about it again.

我能感觉到，啊，这才是我的生活。

I can feel this like, ah, this is my life.

能去爬山，我的生活仿佛变得格外丰盈。

My life feels so much more rich in a way, being able to climb mountains.

但不只是爬山本身，还有旅行，和你一起爬山的人，那些遍布全球的联系和情谊。

But it's not just the climbing part, it's the traveling part, the people you climb with, all that kind of connections spread all over the globe.

而且，确实如此。

And, yeah, that's really something.

但年纪越大，你在山里看到的人去世得也就越多。

But of course, the older you are, the more people you see dying in the mountains.

也许这也是我最近职业方向稍有转变的原因。

And maybe that's also a reason I shifted a bit in a different direction in my recent career.

我开始当攀岩向导，专门带女性团体。

I became a rock guide with the idea of teaching women only groups.

这方面我真的很擅长。

And that's something I'm really good at.

我不太愿意这么说，毕竟我不是那种喜欢夸自己的人，但她们真的特别喜欢。

I don't like to say that because I'm not that person to say like, hey, wow, I'm so good at what I'm doing, but they love it.

我也特别享受这个过程。

And I love it.

不管她们水平如何，对我来说，每个人都值得尊重，她们带来的故事既精彩又动人，每次都让我深受触动。

And no matter which level they appear, it's kind of a person to me that deserves respect and they bring so good and crazy life stories that I'm always blown away.

我们彼此学到的东西，对我来说甚至比自己一个人成功还要珍贵。

And what we all learn from each other is really something that is even has even a higher value to me than succeeding only myself.

看到别人成功，现在反而让我觉得更开心。

Seeing others succeeding, you know, others to succeed is today, feels even better to me.

我觉得，一个人未必得是个好人，才能当个优秀的登山者。

And I don't think we are naturally have to be a good person to be a good climber.

但如果你要和人一起工作、教他们、花大量时间相处，你就不得不成为一个好人。

But working with people and teaching them and spending lots of time with people, you kind of have to be a good person.

每当收到这样的反馈，看到他们因为我的帮助而露出开心的笑容，我就特别满足。

And, it makes me it provides me a happy feeling to get this feedback and to see other people's happy faces because of what I'm offering them or helping them to achieve.

好了，各位。

Alright, folks.

谢谢大家收听，也感谢伊内斯的牵线搭桥。

Thanks for listening, and thanks to Ines for connecting.

花了点时间，但值得。

Took a little while.

是她肩膀受伤了才导致的。

Took her blowing her shoulder out.

你知道的，她从不爱说那些花哨的话，尽管在很多方面她都是顶尖的攀岩高手，简直太厉害了。

You know, she's not one for the tasty talk despite being in many ways the consummate professional climber and just a total badass.

谢谢你在这些事上敞开心扉，Ines。

So thanks, Ines, for opening up.

你当然可以在网上关注Ines，比如Instagram，你想怎么关注都行。

You can, of course, follow Ines all over the Internet, on the Instagram, whatever you wanna do.

你会上网搜索，但别忘了去看看她的电影《Fifty Fifty》。

You have Google, but do check out her film fifty fifty.

这部电影在YouTube上能看得到。

It's on YouTube.

两个女人在山里攀爬、交流，你真的能清楚看到Sarah Hunekin和Ines之间风格的差异，也难怪她们这么合得来。

Two women climbing and connecting in the mountains, and you do really get to see some style differences between, Sarah Hunekin and Ines, and it makes sense why they click.

好了，各位。

Alright, folks.

除了不断推出访谈，我在《Enormocast》上也没干太多别的事。

I don't have a ton going on with the Enormocast outside of pumping out interviews.

今年我对兰德这边有点拿不准。

I'm a little on the fence about Lander this year.

这几年我老这么说，可到现在还没变，咱们就等着瞧吧。

I've been saying that the last few years and still going, so we'll see what happens with that.

秋天倒是有几件事，但还不急着提前透露。

Got some stuff in the fall that I don't really need to preview yet.

那就不多聊了，希望你最近去爬山了。

So I'll let you go, and hopefully, you're going climbing.

当然，别忘了检查绳结。

And, of course, checking those knots.

只要骨头还撑得住，我就会一直爬下去。

I will always climb as long as my bones allow.

我想健康快乐地爬山。

I wanna climb healthy and happy.

而且不只是为了攀爬的成功。

And not just climbing for success.

我觉得随着年纪增长，我现在更专注于当下了。

I think now that I'm getting older, I'm more in the present.

一旦你能真正活在当下，就没什么好害怕未来的了。

Once you manage to fully live in the moment, I don't think there's any reason to be scared for the future.