Enormocast 327：卡莉·拉格——荣耀之日

这就像是在问，这好玩吗？

This is like is this fun?

我热爱这个吗？

Do I love this?

对。

Mhmm.

但对于攀岩或者一般意义上的攀岩来说，其实挺酷的，因为你可以通过很多不同的方式获得满足感。

But with hump climbing or climbing in general, it's actually kinda cool because you can climbing, you can do so many different things to get fulfillment.

比如，有那么多风格和方式可以让你享受攀岩。

Like, there's so many styles and ways that you can enjoy climbing.

而体操呢，一旦你离开了，比如我，我就想过回到体操中心之类的地方，因为我还能做一些动作，就随便玩玩。

Whereas gymnastics, once you leave, like I've I've thought it'd be fun to go back to a gymnastics, like, center or something like that because I can still do some things and just, like, fuck around for a little bit.

但那里真的不是那样设置的。

But it's really not set up that way.

那里没有健身房，没有出口。

There's a gym no outlet.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

比如说，我不能像个业余体操运动员那样，成年了还每周去练几次体操。

Like, I couldn't go be, like, I'm, like, a casual gymnast that, like, does gymnastics a few times a week as an adult.

跟朋友聚在一起做体操。

Get together with your friends and do gymnastics.

那是不可能的。

That's not a thing.

不。

No.

那会很酷。

That'd be cool.

我的意思是，比如

I mean, like

也许可以

Maybe it

那些可以变成房子吗？

those could be houses a though?

你见过那些蹦床公园吗？

Have you seen those trampoline parks?

见过。

Yeah.

而且我认识一些以前练过体操的人。

And I know the people who were former gymnasts.

对。

Yeah.

因为总会有个妈妈，把孩子们赶走，然后自己玩点酷的。

Because there's always some mom who's, like, clearing the kids out of there and then does some rad thing.

我就想，哦，对。

And I'm like, oh, yeah.

你以前是体操运动员。

You were a gymnast.

对。

Yeah.

而且你现在也在这里，你知道的。

And you're here, you know.

就像，是的。

It's like Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

但是，是的，我觉得我的意思是，我评论过很多运动都是这样的。

But, yeah, it's I think I mean, I've I've commented on, like, a lot of sports are like that.

对吧？

Right?

对。

Yeah.

你是以竞技的方式去做的。

You you do them competitively.

如果你真的很投入，你会一直练到大学，然后大多数人，你知道，可能会参加夏季联赛之类的，但是

If you're, you know, really into it, you do them through college, and then most people, you know, then they have, like, maybe a summer league or something, but

很多人

a lot

不会。

of people don't.

对。

Mhmm.

而攀岩呢，是的。

And climbing is a yeah.

这是有点不同的事情。

It's a little bit different thing.

而且，我是说，竞技攀岩这件事，我想聊聊你，所以我们就不说这个了。

And, I mean, the the the comp climbing thing, I mean, I wanna talk about you, so we'll move on from this.

但是，你知道，我一直在看到一些我们在体操界多年见过的模式。

But, you know, I've I just keep seeing a few of these patterns that we we saw for years in in gymnastics.

我就想，你们这些人，怎么不从中学到点什么？

And I'm like, you guys, how come you're not learning from that?

你知道，因为现在我们有这些教练虐待的故事。对。

You know, because now we have these stories of coaches abusing Mhmm.

你知道，竞技攀岩者，还有，你知道，和一些像Alana Yip这样的人聊过，我就想，有没有一种方式，你知道，去举报这些事情？

You know, competitive climbers and, you know, talking to some some folks like Alana Yip, like, know, I was like, is there like an is there a way to, you know, report all these things?

他们有相应的机制吗？

Do they have a structure?

她说，有，但也不完全有。

And she's like, yeah, nuh-huh.

算是吧。

Kind of.

我就想，得了吧。

And I'm like, come on.

我们有五十年的体操经验可以参考，对吧？

We got, you know, fifty years of gymnastics to look at and be like Totally.

那里有一些教训。

There's some lessons there.

对。

Right.

那里有一些教训。

There's some lessons there.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

对。

Right.

不过，我们还是继续吧。

But anyhow, let's move on.

我就是想把体操那件事提一下，因为，是的，它有时候确实是攀岩的一个通道，因为再说，当你开始攀岩时，尤其是18岁开始，你的身体在很多方面已经为它做好了准备。

I I just wanted to get that gymnastics thing in there because, yeah, it's it's it's definitely a conduit sometimes to climbing because again, you're when you start climbing, especially at 18, your body was in many ways prepared for it.

确实是这样。

It was.

对。

Yeah.

当然。

For sure.

就像，我可以

Like, I could

但听起来你的心智也为此做好了准备，因为，你知道，很多人都在谈论，我也在谈论的一件事是，即使是在黑山的一条顶绳路线上，如果你从未爬过，也充满了冒险。

But it sounds like your mind was prepared for it too because, you know, one of the things that a lot of people talk about, I talk about is, like, there's adventure in even just like a top rope in the Black Hills if you've never done it before.

是的。

Yeah.

而在冒险中，我认为我们不太会去延伸思考的主要一点是，那就是自由。

And in adventure, I think the main thing we don't like sort of extrapolate to is that it's freedom.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你知道吗？

You know?

而且我一直记得那种难以置信的自由感。

And I I always remember feeling like this incredible sense of freedom.

就好像，我也不太清楚那意味着什么。

And it was like, I don't exactly know what that means.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但你的身体就是感觉，我有这种潜力，而且它能带我走得很远。

But you just your body was just like, I have this potential and I have this this, like, it can go really far for me.

对。

Yeah.

我的意思是，随着你在攀岩上越来越有劲头，那一年你的感受是怎样的？

I mean, what was your feelings around the year, like, as you gathered more steam and climbing?

再说，跟那种非常结构化的体操世界相比，体操训练你，对。

Again, versus maybe, like, this very structured world of gymnastics that had had trained you to Yeah.

让你身体健壮，为这个做好准备。

Be physically fit and ready for this.

对。

Yeah.

而且能用手臂支撑。

And able to be on my arms.

对。

Yeah.

因为那是我，嗯，对。

Like, because that was a thing that I yeah.

高低杠是我的主项。

Bars was my main event.

所以从三岁起，我就一直用手臂悬挂、摆动。

So was like, I've been hanging from my angle dangling from arms since those three.

所以我

So I

感觉说

felt tell.

正常。

Normal.

但是，是的，我觉得还有，当我发现攀岩的时候，我在读工程专业，所以我在攀岩之外的生活也是高度结构化的。

But, yeah, I think the also, when I found climbing, I was in school for engineering, so I was dealing with, like, a highly structured life outside of climbing too.

而且我觉得，一方面，我一直渴望那种强度，就像那些安静的时刻，在高处、在外面，那种感觉很强烈。

And I think, one, I think I always, like, craved the intensity of, like, those quiet moments of, like, being up and out, and it's intense.

而且在那里面，很酷的是，它涉及心理、情感、解决问题和创造力。

And it's but that in that, it's cool because it's, like, mental, emotional, problem solving, creative.

你在上面。

You're up.

你在高处。

You're high.

那里有很多刺激，让人感觉这是一次非常充实或丰富的体验。

There's, like, a lot of just, like, a lot of stimulus in that that makes it feel like such a full experience or rich experience.

但你也同时和别人分享这种体验。

But then you're also sharing it with somebody.

你知道，你和搭档一起分享。

You know, you're sharing with your partners.

所以，所有这些感受，你知道，我当时在工程领域可能都得不到。

So it's, like, all those things that you know, and I wouldn't say any of those things I was getting from maybe engineering at that time.

所以这让我感觉活着，或者也许这就是我描述它的方式，就像自由、活着，或者随便怎么说。

So it was, like, kinda made me feel alive, or maybe that's, like, how I would describe it and, like, freedom alive or whatever that could be.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Right.

我，我

I I

猜猜看。

guess something.

有点难

Was, like hard

用语言表达出来。

to put it into words.

对吧？

Right?

对。

Yeah.

有点像那个什么。

Kinda like The something.

当时就是有一种感觉，很明显我渴望这种体验，想继续追寻和探索。

There was, like, something there where I was like, obviously, I'm craving this experience and wanna continue to seek it out and explore.

你知道，攀岩很酷，因为你可以用各种不同的方式去探索它。

You know, climbing's so cool because you can explore it in all these different ways.

但是，是的，就像，我当时在学工程，或者等等。

But, yeah, it was like, I was in engineering or wait.

他们是在工程学院当工程师，然后攀岩就像那种活力的出口，比如去露营，对着月亮嚎叫。

They're working as an engineer in school for engineering, and then climbing was like that outlet of, like, aliveness, like, going camping, howling at the moon.

我的意思是，进行野外旅行，甚至只是去科罗拉多州爬一堆十四峰，或者走一条高山路线，或者，哦，什么是运动攀岩？

I mean, doing backcountry trips, doing even just, like, going up and hiking a bunch of fourteen years in Colorado or doing an alpine route or, oh, what's sport climbing?

哦，那很酷。

Oh, that's cool.

我们可以说，努力尝试真的很酷。

We can get, like, trying hard is fucking cool.

就像，感觉很好。

Like, it feels good.

那种强度感觉很好，或者感觉充满活力。

And that intensity feels good or feels alive.

我觉得那是我为什么会有‘哦，是的’这种反应的一个重要原因。

And I think that was, like, a big part of why I was like, oh, yeah.

就是说，我全身心投入这件事，不管它会把我带到哪里。

Like, I'm in on this, you know, in in whatever way it's gonna take me.

而且，对，确实有很多未知数。

And there's, like, yeah, there's unknowns.

嗯。

Mhmm.

有很多不可预测的东西。

There's unpredictability.

有很多新鲜感。

There's novelty.

我觉得，对很多人来说，日常生活很多时候挺单调的，有点死板。

There's, like, so much of our day to day in in a lot of people's lives, I think, is pretty, like it's, a bit sterile structure.

就是说，未知的东西少了很多。

There's, like, there's, you know, a lot less unknown.

也许有些人，在某种程度上，会从中获得安慰，因为未知的东西是有限的。

And maybe some people, to some extent, we get comfort out of that to have there's some limit to the amount of unknowns.

我们都需要一定的稳定和舒适，但我感觉攀岩之所以火起来，是因为我们也渴望另一面，不管那是野性还是那种原始的东西，可能是在路线上拼命努力时才能得到的。

Like, we all need some amount of stability and comfort, but I kinda feel like the reason climbing is blown up a bit is because we also all crave that other side, whatever that wildness is or that, like like, you know, that, like, primal that that we get maybe if we're trying really hard on route that we're not gonna get.

我们醒来，煮咖啡，在桌前工作，回邮件，划掉待办事项，吸尘时尽量不陷入存在主义危机，然后睡觉。

We'll wake up, make coffee, work at our desk, answer our emails, check our to do list off, try not to have an existential crisis while you vacuum, like and then go to sleep.

我们不是……我不知道。

Like, we're not and I don't know.

现代生活缺少了这些。

We're missing that from general modern life.

所以我认为，如果你已经享受那种完整而强烈的体验，你就会出去拼命爬。

And so I do think they're they're if if you already have a enjoyment of a full intense experience, you go out and you fucking try hard on a climb.

你会觉得，对。

You're like, yeah.

太好了。

Like, great.

我需要这个。

Like, I needed that.

就是，感觉真好。

Like, that felt good.

而且那种努力的程度，或者那种身体和心灵同时投入的感觉，我觉得真的是我之所以觉得‘好吧’的一个重要原因。

And that's that, like, effort level or that in your body, in your mind at the same time thing, I think, was really a big part of why why I was like, okay.

我想经常做这件事。

I wanna do this a lot.

那我们来聊聊你吸尘的问题吧。

So let's explore your problem with vacuuming.

你刚才看了看我的货车，现在货车的地板，你肯定在想，是啊。

You looked at my van right now, the floor of my van right now, you're like, yeah.

她确实有争论的问题。

She does have a problem with arguing.

不。

No.

我觉得你说的很有意思，因为，你知道，我看到的你人生的一个转折点是，你确实学过，而且你毕业时是工程师。

I think it's interesting what you're saying because, you know, one of the things that I see is this this, you know, pivot point in your life is that you were you did study and and you graduated as an engineer.

对。

Mhmm.

你学的是哪种工程？

What type of engineering?

我本科是土木工程，硕士是结构工程。

So my undergrad is in civil and then my master's degree is in structural engineering.

然后我做了四年的结构工程师。

And then I worked as a structural engineer for four years.

没错。

Right.

所以你毕业了，上了大学，拿了硕士学位，你父母肯定很满意。

And so you graduated, you went to college, you got a master's degree, pleasing your parents, I'm sure.

是的。

Yeah.

所有条件都满足了，就像，你很好，你很成功。

Checking all the boxes, like, you're okay, you're successful.

对。

Yeah.

我这么说是因为你提到你妈妈担心你会成为攀岩者。

I said that because of what you said about your mom being worried that you'd become a climber.

是的。

Yeah.

然后你工作了四年，之后你就放弃了。

And then you worked for four years and then you bailed.

对。

Yeah.

你刚才说的那些事情，其实也说明了为什么你会觉得那份工作没有成就感。

And all those things you're just saying are were kind of illuminating as to probably why you found that unfulfilling.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但那又怎么样呢？

But what about that?

我是说，那肯定很不容易。我不知道具体怎么回事，你可以解释一下。

I mean, it must have been I mean, don't know how if it was you can explain.

也许你不是某一天突然就，你知道的，对。

Maybe you didn't just, like, one day, you know Yeah.

啪地合上笔记本电脑，然后走出门。

Slam your laptop shut and walk out the door.

但是，对，说说那个转变吧。

But, yeah, talk about that transition.

你知道，你有没有内疚感？

You know, did you have guilt?

你是不是觉得，比如，你知道，也许是你父母付的钱，或者别的什么。

Were you, like, I pay you know, maybe your folks paid for it, maybe whatever.

你知道，我会想，这就是我该做的事，我做得还不错，为什么不继续做下去呢？

You know, I this is what I'm supposed to be doing, and I'm decent at it, and why don't I just keep doing it?

对。

Yeah.

跟我讲讲那个转变吧，因为我觉得这是很多人梦寐以求的事情。

Tell me about that transition because it's I think it's something that a lot of people dream about.

嗯哼。

Uh-huh.

而且很多听我节目的人，都听说过。

And a lot of people listen to my show, hear about.

对。

Yeah.

而且，你知道，你没法轻易迈出那一步，原因有很多，有些也很合理，比如稳定性，但还有可能你在养着别人。

And, you know, you can't quite push yourself over because for a million reasons, and some of them very valid, you know, like, stability, but also, like, maybe you're supporting someone.

也许你有孩子。

Maybe you have kids.

比如，你不能说走就走。

Like, you can't just walk away.

但是

But

我觉得是很多事情的累积效应，就像我把它想成一个天平，最终，对未知的恐惧，对做自己的事或者辞职的恐惧，那种恐惧是存在的。

I think it was a cumulative effect of kind of a lot of things that, like, I think about it like a scale where, like, eventually, the fear of the unknown, of doing my own thing or quitting, like, there was a fear in that.

那里面缺乏稳定性。

There's a lack of stability in that.

还有，那会是什么样子？

There is a what does it look like?

我不知道。

I don't know.

还有一种失望，你知道，我有一张漂亮的小名片，上面写着：Karly Rager，结构工程师，你知道，那带来的稳定感或者认可。

There was a disappointment of, you know, I have this nice little business card that says, Karly Rager, structural engineer, you know, that whatever stability or validation that provides.

放弃所有这些。

Getting rid of all of that.

我是说，这很令人钦佩。

I mean, it's admirable.

我是说，你训练了自己。

I mean, you've trained yourself.

你在这么难的事情上变得很厉害。

You became accomplished at this very difficult thing.

是的。

And Yeah.

我相信人们当时

I'm sure people were

会说，哇。

like, wow.

那真的很酷。

That's really cool.

而且你，我简直不敢相信你，你知道，那个，而我就做这个。

And you're I can't believe you're, you know, that, and I just do this.

好了，继续吧。

And, anyway, continue.

对。

Yeah.

但这只是你可能会放弃的又一样东西。

But that's just another one of those things that you'd be potentially giving up.

没有了它，你是谁？

Who are you without?

哦，你好。

Oh, hi.

比如，我是一名结构工程师，然后别人会因此认可你，觉得你肯定很聪明。

Like, I'm a structural engineer, and then people validating you as that being like, oh, you must be smart.

哦，你肯定混得不错。

Oh, you must do well.

或者，这对我自己来说意味着什么？我有多需要别人的认可？

Or, oh, what is that doing for my own like, how much do I need that validation from others?

你知道吗？

You know?

所以，离开这一切会让人有些害怕。

And so there's kind of the fear about leaving all of that.

而且我觉得我聊过的很多工程师，或者是在工程、建筑行业，或者更偏向那种美国大公司工作的人，他们都有这种恐惧，我理解，因为我也有。

And and I think a lot of people that I've talked to that are engineers are otherwise working in either engineering or the, like, construction industry or some more of that, like like, corporate America type work, you know, where they, like, have that fear, and I think that's I get it because I have it too.

但是我觉得总有一个时刻，那种恐惧和未知变得比你现在做的事情更能忍受。

And I think there is just a point, though, where that fear and all of that unknown becomes more tolerable than what you're currently doing.

而且直到那个天平真的倾斜，你甚至超过了那个平衡点，然后你回头看你现在做的事情，觉得那看起来更可怕，你才会做出改变。

And until that scale really tips and you, like, you know, eclipse the even level and and then you look at what you're currently doing and you're like, that actually looks scarier to me, you'll never make the change.

这就像人的本性，除非有一个让你非常非常不满意的后果。

And that's just, like, I think human nature until there's, like, a consequence that you're really, really deeply unhappy with.

否则你不会做出改变。

You aren't gonna make a change.

所以，你知道，对于很多还留在那里的人来说，我觉得没问题，因为那个点还没到。

And so, like, you know, for a lot of people that are staying in it, I think it's it's fine because, right, like, that hasn't skipped.

你知道，那个点还没翻转，我们还没跨过那个门槛。

You know, that hasn't flipped, that we haven't crossed that threshold.

所以如果你还没到那个点，留在那里是合理的，而我当时的情况就是已经到了那个点。

And so so it makes sense to say in it if if you haven't, and I was just in the situation where it did.

所以我觉得是很多因素加在一起的结果。

And so it was like, I think it was a combination of so many things.

比如，我精力很旺盛，但工作又需要长时间坐在办公桌前。

Like, one, I have a lot of energy and it's a lot of desk time.

每天坐九个小时，真的让人受不了。

And so just, like, sitting at a desk nine hours a day or whatever was yeah.

感觉整个人都有点崩溃了。

It's just, like, just kinda coming unglued a little bit.

而且我觉得工程专业，大学向十八九岁的孩子宣传的时候，几乎有点欺骗性。

And then engineering is really, I think, almost predator it's almost predatory the way that engineering is, I think, advertised by universities to 18, 19 year olds.

他们会说，你会成为工程师。

It's like, you're gonna be an engineer.

这是一份好工作。

It's a good job.

你会很有钱。

You're gonna have money.

你会成功的。

You're gonna be successful.

这会很了不起的。

It's gonna be a thing.

每个人都会给你那种认可，比如，哇，你真聪明。

Everybody's gonna give you that validation of, like, oh, you're smart.

哦，你擅长做事情，诸如此类的。

Oh, you're, like, good at things, like, that kind of stuff.

但现实是，房地产市场太疯狂了。

But the reality is the housing market is insane.

工资停滞不前也太疯狂了。

Wage stagnation is insane.

所以我当时正好处在那个节骨眼上，你知道，博兹曼的房价暴涨，而我的收入却更少，因为我住在博兹曼。

So I was kind of at the cusp of that, you know, like, the Bozeman housing market blew up, like, while I was making less money because I was living in Bozeman.

而且我积极参与了让博兹曼市场火爆的建筑业，但唯一能在博兹曼住得起的人，是那些在疫情期间拿着旧金山编程工作薪水搬到博兹曼的人。

And I was actively involved in the construction industry that was making the Bozeman market blow up, and then the only people that could afford to live in Bozeman were working at the San Francisco coding job salary moving to Bozeman during COVID.

所以，当时在经济上确实有些让人头疼的地方。

And so, like, the there was some financial bits of that of, damn.

比如，我工作很努力。

Like, I'm working hard.

如果我搞砸了，赶上截止日期，可能会出人命。

Like, if I mess up and I'm on a deadline, like, people can die.

我是结构工程师。

Like, I'm a structural engineer.

我的职责是确保建筑安全，但我赚的钱却不够舒适地生活。

It's my job to keep the building safe, and I'm not making enough money to live comfortably.

你懂吗？

You know?

而且，有些时候，比如在尘土飞扬的工地上，我并不喜欢。

And the there's some of that was building the dust time I didn't love.

我更喜欢攀岩。

I love climbing more.

我在镇上的攀岩馆当教练。

Was coaching at the climbing gym in town.

所以那种情绪有点在酝酿，一点点酝酿，然后疫情就来了。

And so there was, like, kind of that bubble was brewing a little, brewing a little, and then COVID hit.

我记得我其实真的很喜欢我的同事们，但那个被夺走了。

And I remember I really actually just enjoyed my coworkers, but that got ripped away.

所以现在我双屏，醒来，坐在我的双屏前，处理框架细节六个小时，你知道，然后回邮件，然后继续工作，压力很大。

So now I'm double like, dual monitor, wake up, sit down at my, like, dual monitor, work through framing details for six hours, you know, then answer emails, then work through more, it's all stressful.

但现在我没有同事了。

But now I don't have coworkers.

然后我发现我积极培训的一个人赚得比我多。

And then I found out that somebody I was actively training was making more money than me.

哦，天哪。

Oh, man.

你说得我胃疼。

You're making my stomach hurt.

然后我就想，我想要的不仅仅是通胀加薪，因为博兹曼的房价中位数一年内涨了40%。

And then I was like, I would like more than an inflation raise, please, because the the median housing cost in Bozeman just went up 40% in a year.

然后我被告知我不知感恩，尽管我有五星好评什么的。

And then I got told I was being ungrateful despite having, like, five star reviews and all this shit.

所以就像有个泡沫，然后我觉得有几件事把这个泡沫戳破了。

So there was kind of like there was a bubble, and then I think there was a few things that, like, popped that bubble.

对。

Right.

对吧？

Right?

现在我才发现，哇。

And now I saw, wow.

我之前对未知的恐惧，比应付这些破事好多了。

All that fear I had about, like, the unknown is so much better than dealing with this bullshit.

我肯定要走了。

Like, I'm for sure out.

就是，解脱了。

Like, peace.

而且，我也不太清楚具体会是什么样子，但我知道肯定不是现在这样。

And, like, I don't know exactly what it looks like, but I know that is not it.

所以我就打算搬进1991年的Econoline，然后开车去圣乔治。

And so I will move into 1991 Econo Line and drive to Saint George.

到了那儿再想办法呗。

Like, figure it out from there.

对。

Yeah.

Econoline那一年不错。

It's good year for Econoline.

那一年很棒。

It's a great year.

那车可是钢做的，兄弟。

There that thing was steel, dude.

那辆车，你还没看到它，就先听到它来了。

That was like a you heard her coming before you saw her coming.

它的名字，是红色的。

Her name it was red.

那是一辆红色的1991年款Econoline。

It was a red 1991 Econoline.

我给它取名叫斯嘉丽·乔万森。

I named her Scarlett Jovanson.

它很聪明。

She Clever.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

它有点颠簸。

She she bumped.

那真是相当……你知道，显然，后来我就放弃了在验证和安全方面得到的一切。

There was it's quite the and, know, obviously, then I I gave up whatever you get in the validation and security.

然后，我父母就说，你在干什么？

And, like, my parents are like, what are you doing?

你居然要开一辆经济型货车。

You're to an econoline.

我就说，我不知道。

And I was like, I don't know.

但也许在某种程度上，我确实感激工程领域，因为它让我对自己解决问题的能力有了信心。

But, like, maybe to some extent, I do appreciate the engineering world because it gave me confidence in my own ability to figure things

没错。

out.

对。

Mhmm.

你知道吗？

You know?

就像

Like

你从结构上规划了你的人生。

Your structural structurally engineer your life.

我觉得就像，这里有变量。

I guess there's like, here's variables.

这些是你无法改变的。

Here are the ones that you can't change.

这些是你可以改变的。

Here's the ones that you can change.

这是它们之间的关系。

Here's the relationship between all of them.

然后就去折腾它，看看你能想出什么，看看什么感觉好，对我来说那是一种全新的开始。

Like, start fucking with it, you know, and see what you can come up with, see what feels good and kind of clean slate in that way for me.

然后我觉得还有动力来自于，比如攀登不同的风格、不同的地区、旅行。

And then I think there's also motivation surrounding, like, climbing different styles, different areas, traveling.

我一直都很喜欢旅行。

I'd always really love to travel.

所以我只能算是个糟糕的裂缝攀岩者，因为我住的地方附近没有多少裂缝。

So I can shitty crack climber because there wasn't a lot of ad around where I was.

而且有些东西，你确实需要地理位置上的资源。

And some of that stuff, you do have to be geographically resourced.

对。

Yeah.

如果你想在裂缝攀岩上进步，如果你是个睡得很沉的人，你是做不到的。

If you wanna get better at crack climbing, you're not gonna do it if you're an intense sleeper.

没错。

Right.

你知道吗？

You know?

就像，那里没有裂缝。

Like, it's not there.

所以

So

所以这四年你一直在工作，嗯。

So when you these four years you were working Mhmm.

那段时间你的攀岩是什么样的？

What what did your climbing look like during that time?

就是周末去玩一下。

So weekend warrior.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得我们

I was I would say we

你说的是在健身房当教练吗？

Coaching at the gym, you said?

嗯。

Mhmm.

我那时候经常泡在健身房，训练量也很大，因为你知道，那是我的生活。

I was at the gym a lot and a lot of training because it's something you you know, I was Mhmm.

比如早上六点去Spire练力量，然后去上班。

Like, pressing glass at 6AM at Spire to do my strength work, and then I go to engineering.

我当工程师，每天工作九个小时，晚上再回去，要么自己攀岩抱石，要么训练，要么当教练。

I work for as an engineer for nine hours, and I go back in the evening and either do my own climbing and bouldering or training or coach in the evenings.

所以每天都很长。

So they're big long days.

工作日我基本都这样，因为那是我能利用的时间，周末就出去攀岩。你知道，在美国公司上班，一年也就十五天假。

And so I was, like, doing a lot of that during the week because that's what I had access to and then going out and climbing on the weekends and taking you know, a lot of corporate America, you're gonna get, like, fifteen days off a year.

你懂吧？

You know?

所以我大概一年就安排两次两周的攀岩旅行，但主要还是周末去爬。

So I take, like, two week long climbing trips or something like that, but mostly weekend warrior.

对。

Yeah.

就是在那种很固定的生活节奏里，尽可能利用手头条件去多爬。

Just doing as much as I could with, like, what I had to work with within that very structured kind of circumstance.

所以那就是我当时的生活，挺酷的，我也积累了很多训练经验，学到了不少东西。

So that's what I was doing, which which was cool, and I got to get a lot of experience training and learn about that.

但就是户外攀岩的机会没我想要的那么多，像更大的冒险、新的攀爬风格，或者去国外攀岩，这些对我来说都不太现实。

But but I just wasn't climbing outside as much as I would have liked and bigger adventures or new styles or climbing in international locations was not really super available to me.

所以，差不多就是这样。

So, yeah, that's what it kinda looked like.

对。

Yeah.

就一周的假期跑去欧洲之类的地方，倒时差都不划算。

The jet lag pay for a one week trip to another like, to Europe or something isn't hardly worth it.

不。

No.

完全不是。

Not at all.

我的意思是，自从有了孩子，你知道，我算是个顾家的人。

I mean, it seems like I mean, as I've had a kid and we have you know, I'm a sort of a family guy.

我们去过几次旅行，大概三周那种。

We we've gone on a couple trips that were, like, three weeks.

第一次去的时候，我就想，不行。

And I was like, first time I did that, was like, no.

你会去大概四个月。

You go for, like, four months.

因为你买了票，但我的生活已经不是那样了。

Because you bought a ticket, but it, like but my life is no longer that.

但你明白我的意思吗？

But you know what I mean?

对。

Like Yeah.

这种感觉，就像你不会买一张去欧洲的机票只待两周。

This feeling, like, you don't buy a ticket to Europe for two weeks.

那样纯粹是浪费

Like, that's just a waste

钱，你懂吧。

of money, you know, kind of a thing.

但是

But

我时差反应也很严重。

I'm terrible at jet lag too.

我要花很久才能从时差中恢复过来。

It takes me forever to recover from jet lag.

确实。

Do.

我试过所有方法，每个人都说，不，你应该这样做那样做，或者现在吃安眠药，然后这样做，然后我就不知道了。

I've tried all the things and everybody's, no, you do this and this or you take the Ambien now and then you do and then I don't know.

安眠药、大麻和褪黑素的任何组合对我都没用。

No combination of Ambien, weed, and melatonin works for me.

我要睡到中午。

I'm gonna sleep till noon.

这肯定会发生的。

It's gonna be a thing.

而且

And

我们不推荐组合，是的。

We do not recommend a combination of Yeah.

刚才那个就是安眠药。

What was just that Ambien.

安眠药、大麻和褪黑素。

Ambien, weed, and melatonin.

那可不是官方免责声明，

That is not an official Disclaimer,

那不是我们推荐的做法。

that is not what we are recommending.

Enormocast 不推荐把这些东西混在一起用来倒时差。

The Enormocast does not recommend mixing those things together to recover from jet lag.

我也是在科罗拉多州立大学学会攀岩的。

I also went to CSU and learned to climb there.

这我还真不知道。

I didn't know that.

对。

Okay.

是的。

Yeah.

我很久以前就在科罗拉多州立大学学会攀岩了，比你早多了。

I went to CSU and learned to climb there a long time before you did.

我也是离家出走的，我开的是一辆道奇货运车，也是樱桃红色的。

I also left home in a in a, in my case, a Dodge cargo van that was also cherry red.

所以，是的。

So yeah.

很不错。

Very nice.

它有名字吗？

Did it have a name?

它没有名字。

It didn't have a name.

没关系。

It's okay.

我知道。

I know.

没关系。

It's okay.

不过它确实有镀铬的镁合金轮毂。

It did have also have chrome mag wheels though.

那当然，太棒了。

Hell, yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

而且它是三速手动挡，挡把在地板上。

And it was a three speed stick on the floor.

那个挡把大概有两英尺高，就在座位旁边，只有三个挡位。

It had, like, this, like, two foot tall stick that was right next to your seat and only three speeds.

所以你就得这样，

So you're just, like

天哪。

Oh, god.

挂二挡猛踩油门，想换到三挡。

Dogging it in second gear to try to get the third.

那真是太搞笑了。

That's super funny.

总之。

Anyhow.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

这就对了。

There you go.

我觉得那很重要，天哪。

I think that's an important I think gosh.

我很久没听这张专辑了，最近第一次又听了。

There's this I listened to this album for the first time in forever.

就是，有个乐队叫The Devil Makes Three，里面有句歌词大概是，凡是有点名堂的人，都曾在某个巷子或阁楼里住过一天之类的。

It's, like, by this band called The Devil Makes Three and it's, like, there's this lyric that's, like, everybody that's anybody lived in an alley in an attic one day or something.

我想到这个，是因为我认识的很多人，可能现在过得稍微明白点了，但都经历过那个转折点，他们是对的。

And I think about that with, like, there's so many people that I know that were like, you know, maybe now they're have it a little more figured out that, like, got to that point where there was a tipping point and they're right.

就像你搬进你的道奇车，带着三速变速器，那是你决定比当时所做的更好的选择。

Like, you moving into your Dodge with the three speed was you had decided better than what you were doing.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而且，那时候看起来没那么光鲜，你也没有所有答案，但你知道，你有点像，好吧，但不是这样。

And, like, it didn't look that prettier put together at that time, and you didn't have all the answers at that time, but you knew that, like, you know, you're kinda like, okay, but not this.

对。

Yeah.

就像，所以，比如

Like, so, like, for

有一段时间，它会

a while, it's going to

看起来就是这样。

look like this.

我住在车里，那也没关系。

And I live in my car and and that's fine.

感觉不像是在受苦，因为感觉像是……或者说是在受苦。

It's like it's it doesn't feel like suffering because it feels like it's or suffering.

但这个词有点沉重。

But, like, that's kind of like a loaded word.

但感觉不像。

But, like, it doesn't feel like.

嗯，感觉不像外人看到的那样。

Well, it it doesn't feel like what it looks like to the outside.

没错。

Exactly.

对。

Right.

对。

Exactly.

就像，你的内心体验和外在看起来的非常不同。你知道，也许那感觉像是自由，或者你正朝着那个方向前进，或者那对你个人来说意味着什么。

Like, your internal experience is very different from what it you know, maybe it feels like freedom or you're headed towards that or whatever that means for you as a as a person.

嗯，这很有趣，因为我也觉得，无论是那种破旧的货车，你只有一个炉子，或者一个Jetboil，就这些，这种经历。

Well, it's interesting because I also think that the experience of whether it's, like, some crappy van and you've got, like, you know, your one burner stove and, you know, or a Jetboil and that's it.

就像，我注意到现在那些真正把货车改装得超级棒的人。

Like, it's I I've noticed how people now that have really, really built out super sick vans

嗯。

Mhmm.

他们某种程度上有点太依赖那些车了。

They're they're kind of like too attached to them in a way.

你懂我的意思吗？

Do you know what I mean?

就像，我对那辆货车也有过这种依赖，但那是因为它是一个避雨的地方。

Like, I had this attachment to that van, but it was because it was a place to get out of the rain.

就这样。

End of story.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

因为除此之外，我做饭都在外面，车里什么都没有。

Because otherwise, I cooked out I had there was nothing in it.

我没有把它装备齐全。

I didn't have, like, it all kitted out.

对。

Yeah.

而且，你知道，我跟一些人聊过，他们还是有点回避房车生活，因为他们说，是的。

And, you know, and I talked to people who still kind of avoid the sort of van life because they say, yeah.

因为我下车后就在外面做饭。

Because I'd I get out of the car and I cook outside.

我是说，有意思的是，即使是我们，也还是倾向于对物品产生这种物质上的依恋。

I mean, it's just kind of interesting that even our tendency is to still, like, acquire this kind of material attachment to things.

对。

Mhmm.

这在攀岩中也是如此，即使你是那种，比如，离网生活的人。

And that grows in climbing as well even if you are like this kind of, like, off grid

是的。

Yeah.

那种类型的人。

Sort of person.

你完全沉浸在你的装备里。

You're, like, fully into your kit.

对。

Yeah.

你知道吗，我

Do you know what I

明白吗？

mean?

完全明白。

Totally.

对。

Yeah.

而且我们都这样。

And we all do it.

我不是说

I'm not I'm

不是，在不同方面，不。

not In different no.

不。

No.

完全同意。

Totally.

我是说，是我给它取的名字。

I mean, I named it.

我是说，是我给它取的名字。

I mean, I named it.

对。

Yeah.

你知道吗，对吧？

You know, right?

显然，你不喜欢，我想我没有养过宠物。

Obviously, you don't like, I guess I didn't have a pet.

而且我也不再躺在货车后面的长毛地毯上了。

And I no longer lay in the back of a cargo van on shag carpet.

对。

Yeah.

也不再和单灶炉一起睡了。

And sleep with a one burner stove either.

我现在有个好得多的装备了。

I have a much nicer rig now.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

但那种历练的过程，我觉得真的很酷。

But the rite of passage of that it is is, I think, really cool.

我也这么觉得。

I think so too.

而且我觉得，知道自己不在乎那件事，也有一种自由的感觉。

And I think there's also a little bit of freedom of knowing that I don't mind that.

我的意思是，如果我做了我做过的事，而现在我不做了呢？

Like, I mean, what if I did, like, what what I did and I and now I don't.

对。

Yeah.

现在我不再住在我的1991年了。

Now I don't live in my 1991.

天哪，我可以。

Damn, I could.

而且那并没有让我太困扰，你知道吗？

And it didn't really bother me that much, you know?

而且，这里面有一种自由，就是觉得，我不知道，就是知道那没关系，那种简单在某些方面是好的，也许不是永远的。

And, like, there's some freedom in that and just being like, I don't know, like knowing that that's fine and that simplicity in some ways was nice and maybe not forever.

但是，

But like.

你知道，我总是想起克里斯·法利的小品，

You know, I always think I think of the Chris Farley skit,

对吧？

right?

就像住在河边的面包车里，再多住一年，不是住在河边的面包车里。

It's like living in a van down like one more year living not living in a van down by the river.

然后我就想，靠。

And I'm like, shit.

在我回到工程行业之前，我真的住在河边的面包车里。

I live in a van down the river before I went back to engineering.

那是肯定的。

That's for sure.

不。

No.

我有时候会想，哦，那真好。

I have I have days where I'm just like, oh, that was so nice.

是的。

Yeah.

其实，在我大部分攀岩职业生涯里，我降级住进了皮卡后面的一个齐顶盖子里。

And actually, I I moved I downgraded for most of my kind of road climbing career to a cab high topper on the back of a of a Mhmm.

丰田皮卡。

Toyota pickup.

嗯。

Mhmm.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以，是的。

So, yeah.

我变得更简单了，而且我不知道我现在还能不能爬进爬出那个东西。

I got even more simp simplified and I I don't know if I could even climb in and out of that thing anymore.

因为那是棺材式的，躺下的时候，车顶离你的脸只有五六英寸。

Because I had it was like coffin style where when when you're laying down, like, the roof was like five five or six inches from your face.

哦，那太厉害了。

Oh, that's intense.

出来的时候才麻烦呢。

It would be getting out.

早上醒来的时候，我倒是能进去。

I could get in in the morning waking up.

就是那种

Just kinda

像这样，扭着身子爬出来。

like, kinda do the wiggle out.

你知道，反正我和Lindsay Hamm就这个话题聊了很久。

You know, anyway, Lindsay Lindsay Hamm and I went went on length about that.

但是

But

对。

Yeah.

所以，你的生活是什么样的？

So, I mean, then what's your life look like?

所以你已经搬进你的面包车了。

So you've you've you've moved into your van.

至少你妈妈在翻白眼。

Mom, at least, is rolling her eyes.

天哪。

Oh my god.

嗯，那是在2021年，我开始了项目直接指导，并且做出了很大的改变。

Well, that was, yeah, that was in 2021 when I, yeah, when I started project direct coaching and kind of turned you know, made this big change.

现在有点不一样了。

Now it's a little different.

所以现在，就像我和朋友说的，我有点觉得自己生活在两个世界里。

And so I now it's like I was talking with a friend about this is I kinda feel like I occupy maybe two worlds a little bit.

比如，我在博尔德北边买了一套公寓。

Like, I did buy a condo just North of Boulder.

嗯。

Mhmm.

现在我有了一辆2005年的Econoline。

And now I have a 2005 Econoline.

看来我就是个Econoline女孩。

Apparently, I'm an Econoline girl.

然后当我不旅行的时候，我就把房子租出去，然后我有点觉得自己在两种状态之间来回切换，一种是完全像个住在河边面包车里的邋遢鬼，另一种是住着不错的公寓，大概一半时间待在那里。

And then when I'm not when I'm traveling, I rent out my place, and then I kinda I kinda feel like I go back and forth between being, like, a full dirtbag living in a van down by the river and then having kinda, like, this nice condo that I'm in, like, half the time.

有个家确实挺好的。

And it is nice to have that home.

我觉得我努力了很久才能在这两个世界里都自在，而且确实在两边都感觉很舒服。

Like, I think I worked for a long time to be able to be to be able to exist in both of those worlds and actually feel very comfortable in both.

但有时候，是的，比如今年春天我连续旅行了两个半月，回来有个公寓可以回真的太好了。

But sometimes, yeah, I was, like, on I was traveling for two and a half months in a row this spring, and it was really great to have the condo come back to.

我真的很努力才能做到这样，同时还有一个空间可以经营生意，这也是我扮演的角色之一。

And I worked really hard to be able to do that and then have also a space where I can run run a business, which is, you know, one of the hats that I wear.

然后我可以出租，比如现在，我在Lander的时候就把房子租出去了，自己住在河边的面包车里，我开心得不得了。

And then I can rent like, right now, I'm renting it out while I'm in Lander and living in a van down by the river, and I couldn't be happier.

总有一天我会回去用我的意式浓缩咖啡机之类的。

And at some point, I'll get to go back to, like, you know, my espresso machine and some of that kind of thing.

但我觉得在‘邋遢鬼’和‘普通人’之间有一种虚假的二元对立。

But I feel like there's there's kind of this false binary between, like, dirtbag and normie.

我既不完全是其中任何一种，但在这两种状态里都感到自在。

And I don't really fit in either of them fully, but I feel comfortable in both those spaces.

也许自从疫情和远程工作以及知识经济带来的宏观变化之后，有越来越多的人处于中间状态，或者两者兼有，或者都不是。比如，你回想一下，2009年的时候，如果你住在车里，大家会觉得‘哦，你是个攀岩者’。

And maybe two with, like, since the macro change that happened with COVID and remote work and, like, the knowledge economy, there's more and more people that are occupying the middle or they're in both or they're not like, yeah, like, you know, you think back in, like, I don't know, 2009, you know, it's like, oh, you live in your van.

你是个攀岩者。

You're a climber.

那看起来就像这样。

That looks like this.

就像，要么你是那种住在车里的人，要么你就是在企业里上班，过着那种所谓的西方成功人士的生活，就像流水线一样。

Like, that is this channel or you're, like, you know, working in, I don't know, corporate America in some way in, like, the conveyor belt of what constitutes western success in your life looks like this.

然后就有这两种分类。

And there's, like, these two buckets.