Enormocast 328：Matt Cornell – The Right Reasons

我们正专心爬着，我朋友就问，哎，你在优胜美地那份工作的面试怎么样？

We were just minding our own business climbing, and my friends are like, Oh, how was that interview for that job in Yosemite?

他就站在旁边，开始往这边看。

And he's just standing there, starts looking over.

我就说，哎，哥们，那工作有点糟糕。

I was like, Oh, dude, it kind of sucks.

我可能不打算接那份工作。

I don't think I'm going to take the job.

他直接插话说，哎，去他妈的承包商。

And he just chimes in and he's like, Oh man, fuck the concessionaire.

我家在谷口外面开了家餐厅。

My family owns a restaurant right outside the valley.

我可以帮你在那儿找份工作。

I'll get you a job there.

我哥在经营那家店。

My brother runs it.

那会很棒的。

It'll be great.

你就应该在那儿工作。

You should just work there.

然后我就接受了他的提议，心里想，哇。

And I took him up on the offer and was just like, woah.

这真的就是我一直在寻找的东西。

Like, this is actually like everything I was looking for.

周末忙的时候兼职工作，周中公园不忙的时候进去，有大量时间攀岩还能赚点钱。

Just work part time on the weekends when it's busy, go into the park midweek when it's not busy, and have a bunch of time to climb and make some money.

所以就这样，我认识了康拉德，认识了他的家人，开始在约塞米蒂附近工作和生活。

And so that's how I met Conrad, met his family, started working and living around Yosemite.

从那时起，我更了解康拉德了，也和他有了一种师徒关系。

And from there got to know Conrad a little more and kind of have a little bit of a mentorship with him.

你知道，他总是帮我确保我拥有成功所需的工具，他这样做真的很酷。

You know, he always helped to make sure that I had the tools I needed to succeed, which was a really cool thing of him to do.

但他总是让我借用装备，比如吊帐、冰镐、冰爪，还会帮我联系那些能推动我攀岩事业或者给我需要东西的人。

But he'd always let me borrow gear, portaledges, ace tools, crampons, but you'd also help make the connections to people that could help further my climbing career or give me things that I needed.

他会邀请我一起去当摄影助理，比如第一次是帮Smart Wool拍片。

He would invite me along to be a rigger on a photoshoot for, let's say, Smart Wool was the first one that he helped me with.

然后认识了Smart Wool的一些代表和制片人，他们后来给了我很多必需的装备。

And meeting some of the reps and producers who were working for Smart Wool, you know, they're then hooking me up with a lot of gear that was, you know, essential.

我其实买不起那些高端的技术服装和设备，但攀冰又需要这些。

I couldn't really afford to buy, like, high end technical clothing and equipment, which you kinda need to go ice climbing.

但他帮我建立了这些联系，让我有了这条路。

But he helped to make those connections so I could have that pathway.

这些年来，你觉得他在你的风格或者你对山的态度上，对你有什么影响？

Over the years then, what do you think he he sort of gravitated in in your style or your attitude towards the mountains?

你知道吗？

You know?

因为我确定他身边有很多攀岩的人，但他不会主动搭话，不会帮他们发展事业，也不会引导他们去获得The North Face的赞助之类的。

Because I'm sure he stands next to tons of people that are climbing and and does not strike up conversations, does not help them with their career, does not, you know, essentially guide them towards a a sponsorship with The North Face and things like that.

对。

Yeah.

你觉得他看中了你什么？

What do you think he saw on you?

我是说，如果你要夸夸自己的话，比如你对待攀登的态度，因为我觉得对他来说，人们如何对待攀登和登山这件事非常重要。

I mean, if you wanna toot your own horn about the characteristics of, again, like how you look at climbing, because I think that's really important to him in terms of how people relate to climbing into the mountains.

对，我觉得他看到我作为一个年轻攀登者，和他很像，对去更大的旅行充满热情，愿意不惜一切代价去攀登，也愿意在他家的餐厅帮忙工作。

Yeah, think he just saw that I was like relatable to him as a young climber, being psyched to go on bigger trips, being committed to doing whatever it takes to go climbing, as well as being willing to help out his family as well at the restaurant and work there.

他看到我不仅是为了攀登而攀登，而是出于对攀登和探索的深深热爱，我是说，我不仅仅是为了攀登，也是为了探索。

Seeing that I was committed and had a deep love for climbing and exploration was like, I'm not just doing this to climb, but to also explore.

我觉得他看到了很多他自己年轻时的特质，以及那种不惜一切代价去攀登的意愿。

And I think that he just saw a lot of that same kind of traits from when he was younger and just the willingness to do whatever it takes to go climbing.

而且，随着我开始去越来越大的旅行，他看到我的视野，也能理解那种视野。

Also, as I began to go on bigger and bigger trips, seeing kind of where my vision was and being able to relate to that as well.

对。

Yeah.

你刚才提到了坚持这件事。

You just talked about being committed.

我觉得有点意思的是，自行车在好几个媒体报道里都出现过。

One of the things I find kind of interesting is the bicycle that features in a few different pieces of media out there.

你因为从博兹曼骑车到优胜美地，还有从优胜美地骑车回博兹曼而出名，这跟经济状况也有关系，对吧？

You got famous for riding from Bozeman to to highlight, riding from Yosemite to Bozeman as well, and that had to do with financials as well, didn't it?

对。

Yeah.

我在斯巴鲁车里住了三年，那时候我已经安排好了一个小循环。

I spent three years living out of the Subaru, and at this point I had my little rotation set up.

夏天我喜欢待在优胜美地和内华达山脉附近，冬天就去蒙大拿。

I like to spend the summers around Yosemite and the Sierra, winters around Montana.

我当时正考虑去参加更多远征式的攀登。

And I was looking at going on more expedition style climbs.

我就想，好吧，我确实买不起车，也搞不起远征。

I was like, okay, I can't really afford a vehicle and expedition.

如果我计划每年大概有六个月都在远征旅行，那我为什么还需要一辆车呢？

If I'm going to be traveling on expedition for what I'm planning to be about six months a year, then why do I need a vehicle?

油费、保养费、保险费这些开销很大，我觉得真的没必要。

That's a lot of cost of gas, maintenance, insurance that I don't really feel like I need.

而且我一直很喜欢骑自行车，一直想尝试一次自行车旅行。

And I've always loved riding my bike, I've always wanted to do a bike tour.

所以我就想，好吧，我把车卖了。

And so I was like, well, I'll sell the car.

买一辆自行车，然后在城里去哪儿都骑车。

I'll buy a bicycle, and I'll just bike everywhere I need to around town.

如果要去优胜美地，或者从这两个地方去博兹曼，我就直接来一次横穿全国的自行车旅行。

And when I need to go to Yosemite or if I need to travel to Bozeman from either spot, I'll just do a cross country bike tour.

2016年我把那辆车卖了，卖的钱正好够买我现在这辆自行车。

And I sold that car in 2016 for the same amount that it cost me to buy the bike that I had.

我正想说这个，你刚才说的时候我就想问了，是不是花的钱差不多？

I didn't ask you make you said that, I was gonna say, didn't it cost about the same?

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

价格差不多。

It costed about the same.

所以，但你不用

And so But you don't have

给自行车上保险，也不用加油。不用。

to insure your bicycle or put gasoline into No.

不用。

No.

我只需要给自己补充食物，这是更好的投资。

I just need to put food in me, which is a better investment.

对。

Yeah.

所以我就把那辆车卖了，买了自行车，然后开始了我的第一次阿拉斯加探险。

So I just sold that car, bought the bike, and then went on my first expedition to Alaska.

那次旅行一回来，我就把所有装备寄到了优胜美地，我记得大概是三个大箱子的攀岩装备和衣服，然后骑上自行车，花了十四天骑到那里。

And as soon as I got back from that trip, I just shipped all my gear, which is like, I think it was like three totes of climbing gear and clothes to Yosemite and hopped on the bike and did a fourteen day bike tour to get there.

到了优胜美地之后，搭便车或者骑自行车都挺方便的，很容易就能搭到车。

And then once I was in Yosemite, it was easy enough to, like, hitchhike or ride the bike, get rides.

说实话，没有车也挺方便的。

So it was pretty easy to get around, honestly, without a car.

对。

Yeah.

你算是早期的环保斗士了。

You were sort of an early eco warrior.

就把车忘了吧。

Just forget about my car.

不过，你知道，有一段简介。

But, you know, there's a blurb.

我觉得是在《胡桃夹子》那部片子里，那是我找到的最接近你传记的东西了，马特。

I think it's in the the Nutcracker film, which is kinda like the closest thing to, like, biography that I found in terms of of trying to find out some things about you, Matt.

里面有一些小片段。

There's little there's little bits in there.

里面散落着一些挺有意思的小故事，其中一个就是你在骑自行车旅行时被一辆半挂卡车撞到，差点没命或者可能瘫痪的经历。

There's little kind of intriguing mini stories sprinkled throughout that one, and one of them is is this either near death or or possibly paralyzed experience of getting clocked by a semi truck on one of the journeys on this bike.

你能跟我们讲讲那件事吗？

Can you tell us about that?

好的，那是我第三次骑自行车旅行。

Yeah, I mean it was my third bike tour that I had done.

我当时从博兹曼骑到优胜美地，而且在阿拉斯加刚经历了一段挺艰难的旅程。

I was riding from Bozeman to Yosemite, and I just had a pretty rough trip in Alaska.

我们当时想首攀杰泽贝尔山西北面。

We were trying to first ascent on the Northwest face of Jezebel.

我们爬到了那座4000英尺高的岩壁的一半。

We were halfway up this 4,000 foot face.

我的搭档摔了60英尺，胫骨和腓骨都骨折了，我们一下路线就得赶紧把他弄出去，整条路线都在雪崩。

My partner takes a 60 foot whip, compound fractures his tib fib, have to get him out of there as soon as we get off the route, the whole route like avalanches.

我们当时就想，天哪，我们差点就死了。

We were like, Oh my God, we could have just died.

那天晚上我们不得不在露天露营，幸好有几个登山者碰巧也在那里，纯属运气。

Has to do like a open bivvy that night with the help of some other climbers that so happened to be out there, by pure chance.

然后把他们带出山区。

And get them out of the mountains.

我自己也得在一两天后离开山区，结束那次旅行。

I have to get out of the mountains myself like a day or two later, get back from that trip.

我当时心情特别乱，可以说是很混乱的状态。

And I'm just like kind of in a chaotic mindset, if you will.

我就想着，我得去优胜美地，因为我当时真的身无分文。

And I'm just like, I need to get to Yosemite because I was, like, utterly broke.

我记得那时候我身上大概只有200美元了。

I think I had, like, $200 to my name at this point.

因为那时候我整个冬天都不工作，所以得去优胜美地挣钱。

Because I would always go all winter without working at this point and would have to get to Yosemite to work.

所以我就想，好吧，这次两周的自行车旅行，我每天只能花7美元吃饭，然后我就跳上车出发了。

So I was like, okay, I have to budget $7 a day for food for this two week bike tour, and I just hop on the bike and start going.

骑行的第五天，我在爱达荷州南部，进入了一个刚重新铺过路的施工区。

On day five of the bike tour, I'm in Southern Idaho, and I entered this construction zone where they just repaved the road.

路上车不多，但偶尔经过的都是那种大型农用半挂卡车。

There was not much traffic, but the traffic that was on the road was like these big agriculture semi trucks.

因为还没画线，他们在路中间放了锥桶。

And they had put cones in the median because they hadn't painted anything.

所以留给汽车或卡车超车的空间其实很窄。

So it's not like it gave much space for cars or trucks to pass.

我正沿着这条路骑，突然刮起一阵强侧风，三辆半挂车排着队从我后面开上来，想超车。

And so I was riding down this road, there's a strong crosswind and this line of three semis comes up behind me, they're trying to pass.

第一辆超过去的时候，就紧挨着我的肩膀。

One of them passes, and it's right next to my shoulder.

我差不多都碰到它了。

I'm kind of touching it.

我没法直接拐到路边，因为那边是路肩，拐过去肯定得摔。

I can't just swerve off the road because it goes into the stitch, so I'll just wreck anyways.

我也不能就停在那儿，不然还是会被撞到。

I can't really just stop there because then I don't get hit either as well.

所以我就想，只能继续骑，尽量贴着路边走。

So I'm just like, I have to keep riding and try to keep it as, like, close to the edge as possible.

然后第二辆半挂卡车开始超我，突然一阵强侧风刮过来，把我的轮胎从路面上掀起来，连人带车甩进了沟里，我整个人被甩到了那辆卡车拖挂的下面。

And the second semi truck starts to pass me and I get hit by a strong gust from this crosswind, and it pops my tire off the pavement and throws my bike into the ditch, but me under the passing trailer of the semi truck.

幸运的是，那一瞬间我本能地蜷缩成一团，后轮撞到我，把我弹了出去。

And luckily, I kind of like crawled up into a ball when that happened, and the rear tire hits me and bounces me out.

所以我没有被完全碾过去，而是被弹了出来。

So I didn't get fully run over, I bounce out.

那辆卡车就继续开走了。

The truck just keeps driving.

然后我就被留在路边了。

And then I'm just kind of left there on the side of the road.

我试着站起来，一瘸一拐地走着。

I tried to stand up and I'm hobbling around.

我背上被轮胎撞到的地方有个大洞。

There's this big hole on my back from where the tire hit me.

血顺着我的腿流下来，我直接倒在路面上，爬向我的自行车，拿起手机拨了911。

There's blood streaming down my leg and I just kind of like fall over on the pavement, crawl down to my bike, grab my phone and just dial 911.

我意识开始模糊，失血越来越多。

And I'm like kind of fading in out of consciousness, losing blood.

而且我觉得，我在路边流血的时候，真的没有人停下来帮我。

And, I think no one really no one stopped, while I was on the side of the road just like bleeding out.

我觉得急救人员大概花了一个小时才到。

And I think it took like an hour for first responders to get there.

他们直接开着直升机来了，把我抬上去，送到了博伊西的医院。

And they just showed up in a helicopter, loaded me up, and brought me to a hospital in Boise.

是的。

Yeah.

你是怎么知道自己在哪儿的？

How did how did you even know where you were?

就是说，你怎么能描述出你的位置呢？

Like, how were you able to even describe where you were?

我知道几个小时前我刚骑过的最后一个镇子。

I knew the last town that I had just ridden through like a few hours before.

我大概离那个镇子三四十英里远。

I was probably like 30 or 40 miles outside of this town.

我就说，我是从这个镇子往这个方向走的。

I was like, I'm headed this direction out of this town.

幸好，我没撞到头。

Like luckily, I didn't hit my head.

我戴了头盔。

I was wearing a helmet.

所以我当时是清醒的，头部一点伤都没有。

So like I was like conscious and my head wasn't damaged at all.

只是我那时候已经开始休克了，而且受了这么严重的伤。

It was just the fact that I had been going into shock and had this traumatic injury.

但幸运的是，我也不知道怎么回事，只是骶骨碎了。

But luckily, I don't know how it happened, but I only shattered my sacrum.

所以那次经历中，这是唯一的实际伤害。

And so that was the only real injury from that whole experience.

所以主要就是失血很快，而且离脊髓太近了。

So it was just kind of like the loss of blood that was immediate and it being so close to the spinal cord.

如果伤口再往上几厘米，我觉得我可能就瘫痪了。

Like if it was just a couple centimeters higher, I think it would have made me paralyzed.

我真的是太幸运了。

I just got extremely lucky.

那之后在医院的日子是怎么样的？

What were the days in the hospital like after that?

我是说，你刚从另一件事中缓过来，那件事就发生在你身上。

I mean, you're coming off this other event, that happens to you.

这其实能很好地看出你对世界的态度，你懂的。

I mean, it'd be a good view into your attitude about the world, you know.

换作别人可能会想，去他妈的。

Other people might be, fuck this shit.

为什么这些事都发生在我身上？

Why is these things happening to me?

你在医院里是什么状态？我是说，这完全打乱了你的生活节奏。

What were you like in the hospital in terms of I mean, it's interrupted your whole flow.

你本来要去优胜美地的。

You're going to Yosemite.

你本来在往前走的。

You were headed forward.

那是什么感觉？

Mean- What was that like?

我觉得我当时只是松了一口气。

I think I was just relieved.

我当时就想，天哪，终于结束了。

I was like, Oh, thank God it's over.

没有那种必须赶到那里的压力了。

There's no stress of, I have to make it there.

我只能慢慢来。

I can only budge.

我就想，反正现在都这样了，不如把医院食堂的东西都吃一遍。

I'm like, Well, I'm just in it now, so I might as well eat all the cafeteria food they have at the hospital.

我就想，不如好好享受这段休息时间，因为如果还在骑车的话，我根本不会有这样的机会。

I like, I might as well just enjoy this time to relax because I wasn't going to have it if I was still on the bike.

我当时就是有点如释重负的感觉。

I was just kinda, like, relieved.

但同时我也需要很多时间来接受自己当时的处境，做了很多自我反思。

But I also had a lot of, like, coming to terms with where I was at to do and, like, a lot of soul searching.

好吧。

Like, okay.

这条路我还想继续走下去吗？

Is this, a path I wanna continue to pursue?

我还能继续过这种生活吗？

Will I still even be able to pursue this kind of life?

我不知道这次受伤会对我有什么影响。

I don't know how this injury is going to affect me.

他们说那个部位会有很多神经损伤。

They said there was going to be a lot of nerve damage in the area.

他们说，哦，你可能需要挂个造口袋，因为我可能控制不了自己的排泄。

Were like, Oh, you might need a colostomy bag because I might not be able to control my own shit.

幸运的是，情况不是那样。

Luckily, that's not the case.

神经损伤还是有的。

There is still nerve damage.

我右边屁股几乎没感觉，不过这也还好。

I can't really feel the right side of my butt, but that's also okay.

这让那些小岩架只有一半那么难受了。

It makes those little bivvy ledges only half as bad.

没错。

Exactly.

对。

Yeah.

但确实，我生活里有很多事情要理清，我也问了自己很多艰难的问题，比如我是不是真的为了正确的理由去攀岩、过这种生活。

But yeah, had a lot of things to figure out in my life, and I had a lot of hard questions to ask myself if I was even trying to go climbing and live this life for the right reasons.

这很大程度上是放下自我，问自己：这是不是我想继续做的事，值不值得追求？

It was a lot of dissolving the ego and asking myself, is this something I want to continue, and is it worth pursuing?

这是不是一个信号，好像在说：嘿，醒醒，离开这种生活，去找份正经工作吧？

Is this a sign being like, hey, wake up, step out of this life, go get a real job?

让我稍微展开说一下。

Let me expand on that a little bit.

你说为了正确的理由去攀岩，这几乎是个挺有争议的说法。

When you say climbing for the right reasons, that's almost like this weirdly controversial statement.

这对你来说意味着什么？

What did that mean to you?

因为显然，经过一番灵魂探索，你最终决定继续做这件事。

Because obviously the soul searching resulted in you going, I think I'm going to keep doing this.

我得出的结论是，

The conclusion that I kind of

我攀岩时带着一种态度和自负，比如，哦，是的。

came to is that I was pursuing climbing with kind of an attitude and ego, like, oh, yeah.

就像，当然，我能做到。

Like, of course, can do that.

就像，我是个不错的攀岩者，然后只是为了，哦，如果我在阿拉斯加完成这条新路线，也许之后就能得到赞助，真的只是为了成就去追求它，而不是为了自己的体验和成长。

Like, I'm a good climber, and just kind of going into it for, oh, like, if I do this new route in Alaska, like, maybe I get a sponsorship after that, and just really, like, pursuing it for the achievements, as opposed to pursuing it for my own experience and my own growth.

我们聊聊独攀的事吧。

Let's talk a little bit about the soloing.

这其实是我之前没怎么关注过的事情。

This was actually something that I had not really looked at before.

我找到了一些视频，你应该知道我说的是哪些，那些视频挺疯狂的。

I found some videos, and you'll know the ones I'm talking about, that are pretty wild.

我说的是那些无保护攀登的根源和高光时刻。

The soloing roots and highlight is what I'm talking about.

我不太清楚这些不同无保护攀登的具体时间线。

I don't know what the what the actual timeline is of these various solos.

有好几次都被拍下来了。

There's several that are on on film.

看起来一开始是因为缺乏经验，至少是在冰攀方面，后来就变成了经验极其丰富的结果。

It seems like it was something that it was born out of sort of inexperience when you were first starting, at least on ice, and then evolved into the result of kind of supreme experience.

但话说回来，这在你攀岩生涯中是怎么定位的？是什么吸引你进入那个世界的？

But, yeah, where where does that fit into your climbing and and what what has drawn you in into that world?

我觉得我就是特别喜欢待在山里，喜欢那种宁静。

I feel like I just really love being in the mountains, and I love the quietness.

冬天的时候，有雪覆盖着，一切都感觉更隔绝一些，给人一种奇妙和想象的感觉。

With winter, everything just feels a little more insulated with the snow, and it gives this feeling of wonder and imagination.

独自待在那样的环境里，总有些东西让我深深受到启发。

There's just something about being out in that environment by yourself that's deeply inspiring to me.

所以，把那种感觉带在身上，独自与山互动，自由地移动、流动，那种美真的难以言喻。

And so taking that and being able to interact with the mountains by yourself and just move and flow and be free is that's just something that's so beautiful.

我就是喜欢这样训练，这样移动。

I love just moving through training that way.

也许是因为我开始攀冰时基本上就是一个人，我就是这样进步的，因为那是我更习惯的方式，也是我所熟悉的。

Maybe that's just because I started ice climbing more or less by myself, That's how I progressed since that's what I'm more comfortable with and that's what I know.

我一直都是这样去追求山的，而且我本身也很内向。

That's how I would always pursue the mountains as well as being deeply introverted.

我觉得这有助于我寻求独处的体验。

I think that helps to seek a solo experience.

随着我攀冰技术的提高，我总是在想，哦，我好奇，比如，没有绳子我能做到什么，因为那样我就能自己连接更长的日子，连接更多的攀登，我能更快，也能爬得更难。

And as I built my ice climbing, I was always questioning, oh, I wonder, like, what I can do without a rope because then I could link bigger days by myself, I can link more climbs, I can do it faster, and I can climb harder.

这和能够独自去山上并且感到自在是一致的。

It aligns with being able to go to the mountain solo and feel comfortable.

另外，如果我和搭档在山上爬更难的路线，反正也不想掉下来，所以这也是我建立自信的一种方式，让我相信自己能独自爬过困难的地形，这样就不会掉下来了。

Also, if I am climbing a harder route with partners in the mountains, don't want to fall anyways, so it's a way for me to build that confidence that I can climb hard terrain by myself, so I'm not going to fall.

所有这些加起来，就让我想要独自去爬这些山。

And it's just kind of a culmination of all of that that leads me into wanting to climb these things solo.

当然，我也不能只满足于爬那些简单的路线。

And, of course, it's I can't just be content climbing something that easy.

所以我在寻找下一个进步的目标，拥有那种经历是我非常喜欢的。

And so I'm looking for, like, the next step in the progression, and having that kind of experience is something that I just absolutely love.

你开始说那些的时候，我在想，你知道，你谈到独自一人、在山里这些事。

Like the way you started talking about that, I was thinking about how you, you know, you're talking about being solo and being in the mountains and all these things.

我就想，对，这完全说得通，因为我觉得，你知道，我说过很多次，大多数传统攀岩者，尤其是在二十多岁的时候变得越来越好，我觉得这对男性来说很适用，但也有女性独攀者。

I'm like, well, yeah, that makes total sense because I think, you know, I've said this many times that most trad climbers, in particular, growing up becoming better and better in their twenties, and I think this applies a lot to men, but there's female soloists out there as well.

但你知道，在我过去的经验里，周围大多是男的，你会经历一个独攀的阶段，就是自然而然发生的，这有点像一种神秘的艺术，你可能甚至不会告诉别人，或者，你知道，你晚上九点半回到约书亚树的营地时，会提到你出去爬了哪个路线。

But, you know, in my experience back in the day, which was mostly dudes around, you know, you go through a phase of soloing, like, it just kind of happens, and it was a little bit of a dark art, and, you know, you may or may not even tell people about it, or, you know, you mention it as you wander back into camp in Joshua Tree at, like, 09:30 at night, that you went out and sold this or that.

这跟之前说的挺吻合的，但你追求的那种体验强度有点不一样。

And that, like, fits with all that, but there's also this intensity of experience that you're looking for that's a little bit different.

但我看不出来你有多冒险，比如我看到的那些路线，像你提到年轻时现场爬过的Roman Candle。

But I can't tell, like, how out there are you, you know, on these, the ones that I saw, these routes like Roman Candle, which you talked about having on-site as a younger climber.

你后来应该又爬了几次，然后才回去徒手攀登那条路线。

You went back and soloed that presumably after doing it a few more times.

还有几条看起来特别吓人的路线，你提到了，我是凭经验说的。

A couple other really gnarly looking roots in highlight, you know, and I'm I'm speaking from an experience.

我对这些攀登不太了解。

I don't know much about these climbs.

然后，可能时间上我不太确定，但其中比较重要的一条是Nutcracker，它在峡谷里有点传奇色彩。

And then maybe, I don't know, again, in per timeline wise, but one of the the more important one was this root nutcracker that's got kind of legend status in in the in the canyon.

那你这些徒手攀登有多接近极限？

So how how close to the edge are you on these solos?

因为，天哪，看起来真的挺刺激的。

Because, damn, it looks like it's pretty intense.

对。

Yeah.

有时候确实挺刺激的，我觉得这正是我喜欢无保护攀岩的原因之一。其他一些知名的无保护攀岩者也说过类似的话，你会经历各种情绪。

It can be it can be pretty intense at times, and I feel like that's one of the things I love about soloing, and I feel like other well known soloists have articulated this in the past, but you kind of go through the full range of emotion.

你会感觉到生命悬于一线。

You feel your life on the edge.

有时候你会感到悲伤。

You feel sad at points.

你会想，天哪，这可能就是终点了吧。

You feel like, man, this could be it.

但也会有纯粹的喜悦和自我反思的时刻。

But then you also have moments of pure elation and reckoning with yourself.

我喜欢那种心理上的挑战，它会让你真正质疑自己在做什么，自己有没有能力，值不值得，所有这些都在攀爬之前发生。

I love that whole head trip where it makes you really question what you're doing, if you're capable, and if it's worth it, all leading up to the climb.

当你开始攀爬时，你会被保持专注和自身的情绪、心态所占据，这不再关乎你的体能，而是如何稳住心态、控制思维，同时让身体跟上。

Then when you're in the climb, you're so overcome by being able to stay focused and your own emotion and headspace, and it becomes less about your physical ability, but how you can keep your head in check and control your mind, but also keep that in line with your body.

所以我总是尽量以非常清醒的头脑和心态去面对这些攀爬，确保在深入体验之前，我完全清楚自己将要面对什么。

And so I always try to approach these climbs with a very clean head, clean mind, and make sure that I know exactly what I'm getting into before I get too far into the experience.

在过程中，我会不断自我检查，比如，感觉好吗？

And Along the way, I'm always checking in with myself, okay, is this feeling good?

时机对吗？

Is this the right time?

你懂的。

You know?

我放弃过很多次独攀，对此我毫无压力。

I've bailed off so many solos that I have no problems about it.

真的，这对我来说没什么，因为最终，我不想经历糟糕的体验或者从这些攀爬中摔下来。

Like, it doesn't really bother me because in the end, I'm not looking to have a negative experience or fall off these climbs.

我想活下来。

I want to survive them.

像“胡桃夹子”这样的攀爬，你懂的，我每个绳距大概排练了50次。

With climbs like the Nutcracker, you know, I rehearse that thing probably 50 times on each pitch.

每一段我大概爬了五十遍，因为岩石质量很差，而且很松散。

I climbed each pitch probably 50 times because the rock is really bad, and it's crumbly.

所以我必须清楚知道哪些支点是好的，哪些可以信任。

So I need to know exactly which holds are good and which holds I can trust.

我还得记住每一个动作，这样我闭着眼睛都能爬上去。

And I need to know every movement so I can climb it with my eyes closed.

所以我准备得非常充分。

So I'm very well rehearsed.

在开始之前我会非常谨慎，但这并不意味着上去之后就不会出意外。

I'm very thoughtful before moving into this, but that, you know, doesn't mean that something can't happen while you're up there.

你怎么知道在爬了五十一次、四十七次之后？

How do you know after 51 times, after 47 times?

你判断的过程是怎样的，就像你说的，确认一下，哦，对。

What what what's your process for, like you said, checking in to say that, oh, yeah.

是时候了。

It's time.

我可能会太习惯这个流程，以至于不想打破它，然后我就会想，我就继续这样练下去吧。

Like, I would probably get into the routine so much that I wouldn't wanna break the routine anymore, and I'd be like, I'm I'm just gonna keep doing this.

你懂我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

对我来说，跳出那个状态会很难。

It'd be hard for me to step out of that.

就像在攀岩项目上固定好路线，一直练到赛季结束，然后从不抽绳去领攀那种。

Having had, like, fixed lines on on climbs that were projects, and projecting them until the season was over, and then never pulling the rope and leading them kind of thing.

对。

Yeah.

那你怎么知道？

What how do you know?

你怎么知道什么时候你从那种排练模式中走出来，准备好出发了？

How do you know when you stepped out of that mode of of rehearsing and you're ready to go?

我觉得就是当我感觉最协调的时候。

I think it's just when I feel most aligned.

我觉得很容易陷入那种固定模式，如果我不是那样的话，可能早就完成那次独攀了。

I feel like it is easy to pull into that routine, and I probably could have done that solo quicker if I wasn't in that routine.

但我也很清楚什么时候我的身体状态是协调的。

But it's also like I have a good sense for when I feel like my body is aligned.

我记得那次，我就是想把一切都安排得刚刚好，天气、条件都合适，身心状态也在线。

I remember with that one, wanted I just wanted to line it up perfectly where I had, like, the right weather and the right conditions, and my mind and body were in check.

然后我看着天气预报，心里想，哇。

And I just remember looking at the forecast and being like, woah.

接下来这一周简直完美。

This next week is perfect.

我想在傍晚的光线里上去，因为那是西北朝向，所以傍晚能捕捉到最后一缕阳光，持续几个小时。

I wanna be up there in the evening light, so it's getting this nice, like, glow of sun because it's northwest facing, so it just catches that last bit of sun for a couple hours in the evening.

我还希望天气冷一点，因为我要动起来，但又想穿得轻薄一些。

And I wanted it to be cold because I'm gonna be moving, but I also wanna wear, like, light layers.

所以最后我进行独攀的时候，温度大概在十度左右。

So I think when I ended up doing the solo, was probably in the 10 degree range.

而且当天气稍微冷一点的时候，那面墙上会发生一些神奇的事情，因为风通常来自，我想说，东南、西南，或者某个偏南的方向。

And something magical happens on that wall when it's a little colder because the winds are generally from, I wanna say, the Southeast, Southwest, some southern direction.

然后它会形成一个涡流，在墙顶上方盘旋，你会遇到非常棒的上升气流，把雪吹起来，感觉就像置身于一个雪球里。

And it creates this rotor that swirls around over the top of the wall, and you get these really cool updrafts that just bring snow rising up, it feels like you're in a snow globe.

那真是待在墙上的美好时光，因为一切都闪闪发光，你沐浴在傍晚的光线中，还有一点温暖。

It's a really beautiful time to be on that wall because everything's sparkly and shiny, you're in the evening light, you have a little bit of warmth.

我在那种条件下爬过那面墙很多次，但从来没有不带绳索。

I've been up on that wall plenty of times in those conditions, but never without a rope.

当我看到可以这样安排时，真的非常鼓舞人心。

When I saw that I could line it up that way, was just very inspiring.

我当时想，我准备好了，我感觉准备好了，我们一定要做到。

Was like, I am aligned, I feel ready, and we're gonna make it happen.

那部电影，其实，胡桃夹子电影，里面有一个很有意思的部分，我真的很喜欢。

The film, actually, the Nutcracker film, there's an interesting part in that film which I really appreciate.

其实，首先，我觉得那部电影非常棒。

Actually, first of all, I thought the film was incredible.

我真不敢相信我以前没看过，而且它居然没有大火。

I can't believe I hadn't seen it before, and it hasn't it didn't just blow up.

我是说，这部电影因为很多不同的原因，真的挺了不起的。

I mean, it it said it it's kind of an incredible film for a bunch of different reasons.

而且你在电影里确实会面对所有这些议题。

And you do confront all these issues in the film.

你知道，要么是你，要么是电影里的其他人，比如康拉德有一个很有意思的观点，我也认同，就是关于那些死去的独攀者，他们不在了，退出了游戏，但剩下的人，比如家人和朋友，都得去面对这件事，还有这种负担，以及所有其他因素，都要算进去。

You know, either you or someone else in the movie, like Conrad has a very interesting perspective that I believe in, about, you know, how the soloist who dies is not, they're gone, like, they're out of the game, but they're everybody else's who who have to deal with it, and this kind of burden that it puts on family and friends and everything else that goes into the calculation of of what happens.

这真的很有意思，但还有一点，就是你确实会面对拍摄这些事的问题，你知道，拍摄会不会改变你去做这件事的动机，我觉得电影里有人，也许就是你，直接说了，是的，会改变。

That's really interesting, but there's also this, that you actually confront this idea of filming these things, you know, whether that changes the the impetus to do it, which I think someone in the film, maybe it's you, that just says, yeah, it does.

因为现在你被观察了，或者类似的意思，这也是我相信的。

It has to because it's like you're now being observed or or or something to that effect, which is something I believe to be true.

而且，你知道，如果是拍电影项目，你还会面临各种不同的压力。

And also, you know, you have these different pressures if it's a film project.

对吧？

Right?

就像你在《徒手攀岩》里看到的那样。

Like and you saw it in Free Solo.

对吧？

Right?

你知道，就是那些人等着拍亚历克斯。

You know, this idea that these people are waiting to film Alex.

他知道这一点。

He knows that.

他明白。

He understands it.

你知道，他在里面说，他不想让朋友们失望。

You know, that he doesn't he says in there, he doesn't wanna let his friends down.

然而，这部电影很棒，而且，你知道，其实，剧透警告，跳过一两分钟，你根本看不到那次独攀。

And yet, with this movie, which is awesome, and I, you know, actually, it's like spoiler alert, skip a minute or two, is you never see the solo.

而且，你知道，我真的是在看的时候，心里想，还剩多少时间？

And, you know, I was literally watching it, and I'm like, how much time is left?

因为如果这部电影里要有独攀的镜头，那你最好赶紧去拍，因为重点全在你的准备和思考过程上，还有我刚才说的，一点背景介绍。

Because you better get soloing if the solo's gonna be in this movie, because it's all about your preparation and your thought process, and like I said, a little bit of biographical information.

然后电影就结束了，你去独攀了，但没被拍下来，或者也许拍了，我不知道，你的硬盘坏了，随便吧，你可以跟我们说说，但我想问的是，决定拍这些电影，把这些独攀拍下来，这个决定难不难？是谁拍的？

And then it's over, and you went and soloed it without being filmed, or maybe you did get filmed, I don't know, your hard drive crashed, whatever, you can fill us in on that, but I guess the question is, is the decision to do these films, to be on film for these solos, If that was a hard decision Who who filmed that?

内森·诺比。

Nathan Norby.

你知道，是不是内森用几杯啤酒说服了你什么的，这对你有没有影响，还有你当时是怎么权衡的。

You know, if Nathan talked you into it with a few beers or whatever, and if it changes it for you, and and what the calculus with that was.

这算是

It was

内森和我一起开始尝试拍摄独攀的。

kind of like a shared entry into filming soloing for Nathan and myself.

在我独攀了这条路线“来拿吧”之后，他联系了我，他还为此拍了部电影。

He reached out after I had soloed This Route, Come and Get It, which he made a film on.

那是我第一次难度更高的混合独攀。

That was my first harder mix solo.

他通过小道消息听说我徒手爬了那条路线。

He heard through the grapevine that I had soloed this thing.

他就联系了我。

Reached out.

我之前见过他几次，但完全不认识他。

I had met him a couple times, but didn't know him at all.

他就说，嘿，我经常做电影拍摄。

He was just like, Hey, I do a lot of film work.

要不要拍个小片段？

Do want to shoot a little clip?

我说，好啊，听起来不错。

I was like, Yeah, that sounds great.

我以前从没拍过徒手攀岩，他也没拍过。

I had never filmed a solo before, and he had never filmed a solo before.

我们就说，那就干吧。

We were like, Let's do it.

我们出去了，玩得很开心。

Went out, had a great time.

拍摄很顺利，独攀也很顺利。

The filming went well, the solo went well.

他的影片反响不错，我们就觉得，也许可以再来一次。

He had good success with the film, we were like, Oh, maybe we should do that again.

我当时一直在琢磨几个想独攀的路线，它们都和那条攀爬路线风格差不多。

And I had been kicking around a few ideas of what I wanted to solo, and they were all kind of a similar vibe to that climb.

都是单绳距，难度稍高一些，然后我有个瞬间，又一次灵光一现，我就想，哦，胡桃夹子。

Like single pitch, a little harder, and then I was like I had a moment where I was just like once again it clicked, I was like, oh, the nutcracker.

那条路线就是该独攀的。

That's the one to solo.

那条路线就是该更进一步的。

That's the one to take it up a notch.

我记得他说，如果你觉得没问题，介意我跟着一起去吗？

And I remember he was just like, if you're comfortable with it, like, do you mind if I tag along?

我当时就说，对。

And I was just like, I yeah.

我不会逼你去做这件事，但如果你想做，欢迎你来拍。

I'm not gonna, like, push for you to do this, but if you want to do it, you're welcome to film.

所以我们就开始拍得更多了。

And so we started filming more.

我去那边的时候，他也会跟着来。

He would come out on days that I was going up there.

对我来说这是个很大的动力，因为那样我就能搭他的车去峡谷了。

And for me it was a great incentive because that would mean I'd get a ride up to the canyon.

不然的话，我每天得骑二十英里的自行车，还得试着在峡谷里搭便车上下。

Otherwise, it'd be 20 miles biking a day, trying to hitchhike up and down the canyon.

所以如果我自己一个人去的话，那些日子对我来说会辛苦得多。

And, so the days would be like a lot bigger for me if I was going out alone.

我当时就想，太棒了。

I was like, Oh, sick.

比如，他今天想出来拍片？

Like, he wants to come out and film today?

那我就可以轻松搭个车上去，滑几趟，他拍点小弹跳、固定线路，然后我们就撤。

Like, I can just get an easy ride up there and get some laps and he'll film a little bounce, fixed lines, then we'll bounce out.

但随着我们拍得越来越多，我投入的时间也越来越多，我觉得那时候我们才真正感受到拍单人攀岩的重量。

But as we started to film more, and I put more and more time into this, I think that's when we really started to feel the weight of filming the solo.

因为有时候我在上面排练动作，他会拍我用了二十次的抓点，突然断开，然后说，哇，这个点可能有点可疑，我们得认真考虑一下。

Because there would be times I'd be up there rehearsing my routine, and he'd film the hold that I'd used 20 times before, just break off and be like, Woah, this thing is maybe a little suspect and maybe we got to really think about this.

我们想出了一个计划。

We came up with a plan.

我们打算在单人攀岩那天安排几个人在上面拍摄，这样就没有摄影师需要兼顾线路，也不会冒险踢落石头。

We'd have a couple people up there filming on the solo day, no filmer would have to juggle line and risk knocking a rock off.

因为那面墙就是那种你一看石头，它就会掉下来的类型。

Because it's kind of one of those walls that you just look at a rock and it falls.

我们想出了这个计划，但在拍摄前两天，摄影师们聚在一起，开了个小会，然后觉得，也许这不是个好主意。

We came up with this plan, but two days before we filmed, filmmers got together, had a little powwow, and we're like, maybe this isn't a good idea.

他们把想法告诉了我。

And they brought the idea to me.

我说，你知道的，我们没必要拍这个。

I was like, you know, like, we don't need to film this.

这不是我想爬这座岩壁的原因，我也不想让这件事改变你们的那次体验，更不想让它改变我的。

That's not why I wanna climb this thing, and I don't want it to change that experience for you guys, and I don't want it to change for me.

所以干脆就别拍了。

So let's just not film it.

我们不是非拍不可。

Like, we don't have to.

这对我来说没什么影响。

Like, that doesn't change anything for myself.

而且，你知道，我爬这个不是为了拍视频。

And, you know, I'm not up here to solo this thing to get the footage.

我是为了自己的体验才来的。

Like, I'm in it for my own experience.

所以我们大家最后都达成了那个共识。

So we all kind of, like, cumulatively came to that conclusion.

说实话，我觉得那非常有力，而且，也许，你知道，这可能会让你们失去奥斯卡提名什么的。

I mean, I I thought it was super powerful, to be honest with you, and maybe, you know, it it took you guys out of Oscar contention or whatever for the film.

我是说，任何这样的电影，都是在为那一刻做铺垫。

I mean, any film like that, it's building up to this thing.

对吧？

Right?

最后会发生的就是你要去无保护攀登。

That's what's gonna happen in the end, is you're gonna solo it.

我们知道你活下来了，但你在无保护攀登的时候我们都会紧张得冒汗。

And we're we know you live, but we're all gonna sweat while you solo it.

但那个部分就这么没了，我当时就想，其实我特别兴奋。

And that was just gone, and I was like, I mean, I just was so psyched, actually.

因为对我来说，这个决定可能不是你的，但跟你聊下来，那次无保护攀登实际发生的方式，你选择在那些条件下进行，那些条件听起来既美又险，就像攀登条件一样。

Cause to me, and and this decision may or may not have been yours, but talking to you about this, the way the solo actually went down, you know, with this this aesthetic choice that you made to do it in these conditions that were almost you know, they sounded pretty aesthetic as much as as, like, climbing conditions.

我是说，那本来可以拍出一些很棒的镜头，但与此同时，我其实挺佩服最后那个牌子上的话，上面写着你是一个人完成的。

I mean, could have been some awesome footage, but at the same time, I, like, just I had, like, a tip of the hat to the to the placard on the end where you said that you did it alone.

因为你知道，“solo”这个词就是“独自”的意思，这几年我一直在想这个问题，因为现在很多人做solo的时候，身边都围着一大群人。

Because, I mean, the word solo is alone, and I've I've kind of thought about that a lot over the last few years as as solos get done with a whole bunch of people around.

我以前常说，在cap上solo的话，如果有摄影师跟着你拍照，那就不算真正的solo。

Because I used to say that about soloing on cap is if you had a photographer wrapping in to take pictures of you, you weren't solo.

在我看来，我在这方面挺较真的，你明白吧。

In my mind, I was kind of a stickler, you know.

因为我觉得，不行。

Because I was like, no.

重点就是你得一个人待着。

You the whole point was you were by yourself.

一旦你在五、六天或者十天的solo里开始跟别人说话，那条件就变了，可以这么说。

Soon as And you can start talking to somebody on a five or six or ten day solo, then you've changed the conditions, you know, so to speak.

完全同意，是的。

Absolutely, yeah.

这让我对自己为什么要做这件事有了更多的反思。

It offered a lot more introspection for myself as to why I'm doing this.

我们做了那个决定之后，我又等了两个星期才去独自完成，因为我在想，哦，我真的需要问问自己这些问题。

After we made that decision, I took two more weeks before I soloed it because I was like, Oh, I really need to ask myself these questions.

我做这件事的理由对吗？

Am I doing this for the right reason?

这件事值得吗？

Is this something that's worth it?

我应该去那里吗？

Should I go up there?

它有什么价值？

What's it worth?

这让我对这件事有了更好的看法，也让我有了更好的体验。

It gave me a much better perspective on it as well as much better experience.

我非常放松和平静，那天简直完美，一切都恰到好处。

I was very relaxed and calm, and it was just the perfect day, and everything lined up.

我其实只爬过一点点混合攀登。

So I've done a teeny tiny bit of mixed climbing.

嗯，以前爬过一些，但现代混合攀登的话。

Well, some back in the day, but modern mixed climbing.

每次我把冰镐扛在肩上，因为我没经验，我就想，我肯定会把那玩意儿弄掉。

And every time I put the ice axe on my shoulder, because I have no experience with this, I'm like, I'm gonna fucking knock that thing off of there.

而且我一直在看你那些单人攀登，我知道你活下来了。

And like someone I've been watching you on these solos again, I know you survived.

我们今天在这儿聊天呢。

We're talking here today.

但我就想，要是他把工具从肩上弄掉，掉下来一个，那怎么办？

But I'm like, what the fuck happens if he knocks one of those tools off his shoulder, it drops one or something like that.

你有没有遇到过惊险的情况？

Have you had any close calls?

有没有遇到过装备故障，或者任何让你陷入困境的事情？

Have you had any failure, or, like, gear failures, or anything that that put you in a tight spot?

我可以说，我独攀的时候从来没掉过工具。

I can't say I've ever dropped a tool while soloing.

天哪，我刚刚给你招来霉运了，兄弟。

Fuck, I just jinxed you, dude.

希望不会。

I hope not.

敲敲木头。

Knock on wood.

还没有。

Not yet.

我还没遇到过。

I haven't done it yet.

我遇到过冰爪脱落的情况，我觉得那是我独攀时遇到的最大的装备故障。

I've had crampons pop off, and I think that's the biggest gear failure I've had while soloing.

但我喜欢独攀冰壁和混合路线的一点是，你可以把它变得非常安全。

But one thing I do love about soloing ice and mixed strain is you can make it very safe.

我的意思是，这本来就已经很勉强了。

I mean, it's already contrived.

你把冰镐挂在岩石上。

You're hooking your ice tool on rocks.

那还不如站在梯子上，踩着钩子往上爬呢。

You might as well be standing in a ladder and stepping up on a hook.

只是需要多一点力气，因为你得抓住工具。

It just takes a little bit more strength because you have to hang on to the tool.

但大部分时候，我独自爬“胡桃夹子”时，冰镐上都带着腕带。

But for the most part, when I soloed the Nutcracker, I had leashes on my stools.

我带了根辅助绳，以防需要撤退。

I carried a tagline in case I needed to bail.

我身上还带了几根冰锥和几个岩钉。

I had a couple of drawers on me as well as a couple of screws.

所以如果我到了一个地方，感觉像是，哇哦。

And so if I got to a point that was like, woah.

这就像是我感觉不太好，我得离开这里。

This is like I am not feeling good, I need to get out of here.

我确实有办法脱身。

I did have a way to get off.

所以也许这给这次独攀加了个小星号，因为它不像在埃尔卡皮坦上没绳子那样。

And so maybe that puts a little, like, asterisk next to the solo because it wasn't like being up on El Cap with no rope.

只有你的鞋和一个粉袋。

Just your shoes and a chalk bag.

就像是有逃生通道。

It's like there is an escape.

有办法。

There is a way.

你知道吗？

You know?

即使你，比如说，你的冰镐挂得很好，然后你滑脱了。

Even if you were let's say you had a really good hook with your ice tool and you slipped off.

如果你戴着腕带，有些腕带足够结实，能接住你。

If you're wearing leashes, some of them are strong enough to catch you.

所以你的系统里有一些冗余。

So it's like you have some redundancy in your system.

不是说你应该依赖这个，但我觉得逃脱的方式更多了。

Not that you should rely on that by any means, but I feel like there are more ways to escape.

你知道，攀冰的时候，总能打一个冰锥。

You know, with ice climbing, can always throw in an ice screw.

这是攀岩中一个迷人的部分，而且那个方面，再次，在那种岩石上。

It's a fascinating part of climbing, and that aspect of it, again, on that kind of rock.

你知道，你谈到，就像，哦，对，我的冰镐的齿就卡在那个点上，然后什么的。

You know, you talk about, like, just, oh, yeah, there's one tooth of my, you know, my axe on this particular hold and and whatever.

看这些真的很刺激，而且，就像我说的，在我们开始讨论做这个之前，我甚至不知道这些电影存在。

It's it's pretty exciting to to watch these things, and, like I said, I didn't even know these films existed until we started talking about doing this.

有一个很短的，没有音乐，只有你的呼吸声和攀爬时各种刮擦的声音，我也很喜欢那个。

There's one really short one where there's no music, and it's just you breathing and making, you know, all the different scraping noises up the wall, and it's I love that one too.

比如，选择让声音就是声音，这给电影的美感增添了很多。

Like, that choice to just let the sounds be the sounds is just adds tons to the aesthetics of the film.

对，这真的让你身临其境，把你吸引进去，就像，哦，很冷，很陡，你呼吸急促，因为攀登很难，而且也很冷，所以你呼吸着冷空气，这也影响了你的呼吸。

Yeah, it really puts you there, and it just draws you in, it's like, oh, it's cold, and it's steep, and you're breathing hard because it's hard climbing, and also it's cold, so you're breathing in the cold air and that's affecting your breathing too.

岩石上的刮擦声总是让人毛骨悚然。

The scratching on the rock is always an eerie sound.

就像指甲刮在……对，

It's like nails on the Yeah,

确实。

for sure.

好，我们来谈谈那些大山，因为我觉得你的名声，就是那种能搞定事情、非常可靠的搭档，正是从那里来的。

Well, let's talk about the big mountains because this is really, you know, where I think your reputation as, you know, somebody who can get things done and is a super solid partner comes from.

跟我说说，比如，发现并进行了那些首次登顶的探险，比如阿拉斯加山脉。

Tell me about, like, discovering and and going on the the first kind of first ascent type expeditions to, like, the Alaska Range, for example.

你是一步步从那些比较基础的入门路线开始爬的吗？

Did you do a progression of doing the the obvious sort of entry level routes up there?

你多快就开始投入到以首登为目标的探险中了？

How fast did you kind of leap into doing expeditions that focused on first ascents?

天哪。

Gosh.

我觉得我就是直接跳进了深水区。

I guess I just kind of jumped into the deep end with it all.

我第一次去阿拉斯加旅行

I did my first Alaska trip

我有点那种印象，

I kind of got for that impression,

但我想，对。

but I wanted to Yeah.

而且我们在那儿的第一次攀登就经历了一次很惊险的事情。

Double And we kind of had a gnarly experience on our first climb there.

你知道，就是那种你飞进去的时候天气很好，你会想，哦，天气晴朗，完美。

You know, it's one of those things you fly in in good weather, and you're like, Oh, it's splitter.

我们明天就去爬。

We'll just climb tomorrow.

我们飞进了露丝峡谷。

And we flew into the Ruth Gorge.

其实就我和我的朋友内特·肯尼。

Really my friend Nate Kenny and myself.

好的。

Okay.

这是我第一次去阿拉斯加，也是第一次真正的大山远征。

And this is my first trip to Alaska, first real big mountain expedition.

我们飞进去，降落在冰川上，搭好营地，然后就说，哦，明天去爬韦克山吧。

And we fly in, land on the glacier, set up, and we're like, oh, let's go climb Mount Wake tomorrow.

有一条比较容易的路线。

There's, like, an easier route.

我们想，哦，正好可以适应一下，搞清楚阿拉斯加登山是怎么回事。

We're like, oh, it'll be good to, like, get set up and figure out how to do this whole, like, Alaska climbing thing.

这垂直的雪是怎么回事？

What's this vertical snow about?

不过这东西挺简单的，我们会没事的。

But this thing's, like, easy, so we'll be fine.

一天就能轻松搞定。

We'll cruise in a day.

没什么大不了的。

No big deal.

我们滑到山脚，爬上山脊，途中掉进好几次冰裂缝，完全超出了我们的能力范围。

And we ski to the base, climb the route, get up on the ridge, take, like, multiple crevasse falls, just, like, totally all of our element.

我以前从来没上过冰川。

Like, I'd never been on a glacier before.

开始下山脊的时候，遇到一些雪檐，摔了几跤，然后心里就想，哇，我们可能有点不自量力了。

And start descending the ridge, have, like, some cornices that we took some falls with and had like this kind of like, woah, like we're maybe in over our heads.

最后沿着这条沟槽下撤，几乎回到了路线的起点。

End up descending almost to the base of the route coming down this couloir.

我们把滑雪板就放在山脚下，换上了登山靴，因为离大本营还有几英里路。

We had sashed our skis right at the base and changed into climbing boots because it's a couple miles from our base camp.

突然我们就听到一声巨大的雪崩。

And all of a sudden we just hear this massive avalanche.

我们心想，哇，那是在哪儿？

We're like, Woah, where's that?

我们没看到。

We don't see it.

紧接着，我们就被一股粉雪云包围了，因为山顶的雪崩直接冲下了山面。

Next thing you know, we're like engulfed in this powder cloud because the sarac from the summit had just ripped down the face.

我们躲在了避风处，所以安全了。

We were sheltered, so we were safe.

但我们的滑雪板全被冲走了，我们完全懵了，哇。

But it totally took out our skis, we're just of shell shocked, Woah.

这地方可不是闹着玩的。

This place is for real.

因为我们当时完全没有预料到，真的。

Because we just had no clear, like, oh, yeah.

我以为就是一天的攀冰。

I'll just be a day of ice climbing.

结果我们爬了四千英尺。

We just do 4,000 feet of it.

对。

Mhmm.

那真的让我们清醒了。

And that really put us in.

我们当时就想，哇。

We were like, woah.

这地方是来真的。

This place is for real.

然后一周后，我们又去尝试了亨特山的北屠夫路线。

And we ended up trying the North Butchers of Hunter, like a week later.

那次我们算是碰壁了，然后飞回来的时候，我们俩都挺受震动的。

Kinda got shut down on that, and then we flew out, and we were both just like shaken.

那其实是我第一次真正去那些大山，但我有点直接冲进去了，还带着一种自负，因为我想，哦，我在Highlight的岩壁上能爬那个难度，那在山上肯定也没问题。

And that was like my first real trip to the greater ranges, but I kinda, like, jumped all in and was, like had this kinda, like, ego around it because I was like, oh, well, like, I climb these grades at the crag in Highlight, so it'll be totally fine to do that in mountains.

后来我才慢慢意识到那意味着什么，但我当时并没有真正消化或理解，因为第二年，我就计划去Revelation Mountains，开始追求大山首攀。

And then I started to, like, realize what that meant, but I didn't really internalize it or understand because the next year, I planned a trip to go to the Revelation Mountains to start pursuing big mountain first ascents.

我有个朋友曾经尝试过Jezebel的西北壁，他去了那里看了看，但并没有真正去爬。

I had a friend who had tried the Northwest face of Jezebel, where he kind of went out there and looked at it, didn't really try it.

他在那座山的东壁爬了一条路线。

He climbed a route on the east face of that mountain.

所以他跟我讲了一些情况，然后我就想，哦，我应该去那里。

So he was kind of telling me about it and was like I was like, Oh, I should go there.

当然，我肯定能行。

Like, of course I can do that.

我和朋友到了那里。

Showed up with my friend.

我们俩都从来没在大山脉里做过任何首降。

We'd both never done any sort of first descend in the greater ranges.

我们之前在塞拉或者海莱特爬过一些小路线，但从没在山上试过。

We had done, like, some smaller climbs in the Sierra or Highlight, but never, like, in the mountains.

然后我们就到了那里。

And so we get out there.

首先，我们降落在我们想去的冰川上。

First, we kind of like land on the glacier that we wanted to.

所以要滑雪十英里才能到山脚下，然后滑过去，搭个帐篷。

So it's like a 10 mile ski to get to the base of the mountain and ski out there, set up a bibby.

坏天气来了。

Bad weather comes in.

我们不得不滑回去，因为我们的补给不够，没法尝试。

We have to ski back because we didn't have enough supplies to try it.

我们感觉所有事情都开始对我们不利了。

And we were just kind of like everything was kind of starting to stack up against us.

我们当时就想，哎呀，真不想回去。

We're like, oh, we don't really want to go back.

然后我们就开始滑到其他山那边去。

And we start skiing around to other mountains.

但那些山的状态都不行。

Nothing's in condition.

然后我们就想，唉，还是得回去。

And we're like, oh, we have to go back.

你知道，那个地方挺偏远的。

And, you know, the revelations are pretty far out there.

很难到达那里。

They're hard to get to.

基本上没什么人去那边爬山。

No one really climbs out there.

我们在那边待了两周，一个登山者都没见到。

We hadn't seen any climbers in the two weeks that we'd been out there.

所以我们滑回杰泽贝尔的西北面，搭了个帐篷，然后走到山脚下。

So we ski back to the Northwest face of Jezebel, set up a bibi, walk to the base of the mountain.

我们开始看到滑雪的痕迹，还有冰爪什么的。

We start seeing, like, ski tracks and, like, crampons and all this stuff.

我们心想，等等。

We're like, wait.

这里发生了什么？

What's going on here?

这些其他登山者是从哪里来的？

Where where did these other climbers come from?

我们以为方圆一百英里内只有我们呢。

We thought we were the only people in a 100 mile radius.

我们没看到任何飞机。

We didn't see any planes.

我们完全不知道。

We had no clue.

而且他们的足迹是从冰川的另一边过来的，跟我们来的方向不一样。

And their tracks were coming up the glacier from a different direction in which we had come from.

我们就在想，他们是走过来的吗？

And we were just like, do they walk in?

怎么回事？

What's going on?

然后我们想，算了，管他呢。

And we were like, oh, whatever.

反正我们在路线上没看到他们。

We don't see them on the route.

我们就打算露营，早点起来，开始爬。

We'll just bivvy, wake up early, start climbing.

所以早上起来，到了伯格斯特龙，我们发现了一个雪桩。

And so wake up in the morning, get to the Bergstrom, and we find like a picket.

我们就在想，这是怎么回事？

We're like, what's going on?

这有点奇怪。

This is weird.

继续往上爬，没看到更多装备。

Start climbing higher, see no more gear.

我们觉得进展挺顺利的。

And we're like making pretty good time.

路线其实挺容易的，但我们没有真正研究过这条路线。

The train was like pretty easy, but we didn't really do any, like, research into the route.

我们没怎么仔细看。

We didn't really look at it.

没有用相机或望远镜看，我们就是觉得，哦，对。

With, like, a camera or binoculars, we're we're just like, oh, yeah.

这条路线看起来很明显。

This looks like the obvious line.

然后它开始变得越来越陡。

And it starts to get steeper and steeper.

我们在爬，你知道，60米一段的绳距，没有任何保护，几乎就是垂直的雪坡。

We're climbing, you know, 60 meter pitches with no gear, just like near vertical snow.

然后就是赶紧冲到岩石那边去做保护点。

And just like zipping out to the rock to like make anchors.

我们当时就有点，哇，我们好像有点陷进去了。

And we're just kinda like, woah, we're kinda getting in this.

然后我朋友有一次绕过一个拐角，爬上了一段特别陡的悬垂雪坡。

And my friend at one point climbed up around this corner and got on some, like, really steep overhanging snow terrain.

而且显然因为雪地没有保护，他的冰镐最后脱落了，他飞过保护站，撞到墙上，翻了个底朝天，最后掉到保护站下方大概40英尺的地方。

And obviously with no gear because of snow and his tools ended up ripping, and he flew past the belay, bounced off the wall, flipped upside down, and ended up like 40 feet below the belay.

大概摔了60英尺那么远。

Took like a 60 foot whip or something.

然后他就说，哥们，我腿断了。

And was just like, dude, I just broke my leg.

你知道吗？

You know?

他说，我能感觉到血在靴子里积起来了。

He was like, I can feel blood pooling in my boot.

就像，骨头都从皮肤里露出来了。

Like I The bones through the skin.

然后我们就想，好吧，我们得赶紧离开这里。

And it was just like, Okay, like we got to get out of here.

这太严重了。

This is like gnarly.

于是我们就开始速降。

And so we rappel.

那花了好几个小时，还翻过了冰裂缝。

That took like quite a few hours and wrap over the Bergshund.

我当时就想着，我有一部卫星电话。

And I'm just like I had like a Sat phone.

那时候我还没有InReach。

I didn't have an in reach at the time.