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大家好。
Hey there folks.
如果你们还不知道的话，今年是美国的超级二百周年纪念，也就是我们建国二百五十年。
In case you didn't know, this is America's supercentennial, our two hundred and fiftieth year.
在未来几周和几个月里，我们将花大量时间谈论美国、谈论我们的建国历史。比如今天，我们就采访了我们的朋友约翰·韦斯特。
We're going to be spending a lot of time in the weeks and months ahead talking about America, talking about our founding, And today, for example, we talked to our friend John West.
他多次出现在这个节目中。
He's been on this program many times.
他最近出版了一本新书，名为《由我们的创造者赋予》。
He has a new book out called Endowed by Our Creator.
这本书探讨了开国元勋们对宗教的真实信仰。
It explores the founding fathers' true beliefs on religion.
这些都是我非常喜欢谈论的话题。
All of that stuff that I love to talk about.
所以，让我来和我的朋友聊聊。
So let me talk to my friend.
他来了，约翰·韦斯特。
Here he is, John West.
欢迎再次回来。
Welcome back.
埃里克，谢谢你再次邀请我。
Eric, thanks for having me back.
这太重要了。
This is so important.
在我写的关于革命的书里，我并没有带着某个特定主题、角度或目的去写。
In my book on the revolution, I didn't write it with a subject in mind or an angle or anything.
我只是想讲述这个故事，但在讲述故事的过程中，你书里写的一切都会自然浮现。
I just want to tell the story, but in just telling the story, everything you write about in your book comes out.
这真是惊人地无法回避。
It is so shockingly inescapable.
创始人们的信仰对一切如此核心，而我们却在几十年间逐渐将它抹去了。
The faith of the founders was so central to everything, and we have kind of swept that away over the decades.
为了追求真相，我们理解这一点至关重要，即美国人要了解我们是谁、我们曾经是谁。
It's vital just for the sake of truth that we understand this, that Americans understand who we are, who we have been.
所以给我们讲讲你的书吧。
And so tell us about your book.
我不确定你是否想先开始。
I don't if you wanna start.
我知道最近有一项新的民意调查。
I know there was a new poll recently.
也许你可以从那里开始。
Maybe you wanna start there.
是的。
Yeah.
我们实际上与这本书同步开展了一项针对2500名美国人的民意调查，了解他们如何看待美国的建国，结果有一些积极方面，但也有一些令人担忧的问题。
We actually in conjunction with the book, we did a poll of 2,500 Americans about how they viewed the American founding, and there were some positives, but also some things for concern.
积极的一面是，尽管有各种觉醒思潮，尽管对美国开国元勋的贬低层出不穷，但绝大多数美国民众，无论种族、性别，仍然对美国建国原则和《独立宣言》持有很高的评价。
So the positives were despite all of the wokeness, despite all the trashing of the American founders, the vast majority of Americans of all races, both, male and female, actually think pretty highly still of the principles of the American founding, the Declaration of Independence.
他们甚至对乔治·华盛顿和托马斯·杰斐逊评价很高。
They actually even think highly of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson.
年轻一代的评价有所下降，但大部分下降并不是因为他们憎恨开国元勋。
There's some drop off going to younger people, but most of the drop off is not because they hate the founders.
而是因为他们对这些人一无所知，因为他们从未学习过这些内容。
It's because they don't know anything about them, cause they haven't learned about them.
所以他们说，他们不了解。
And so they so they said they don't know.
不过，也存在一些令人担忧的问题。
Now, there are some concerning things.
其中一个最令人担忧的问题是，当问人们我们的权利最终源自何处时。
One most concerning thing is when you ask people, where do our rights come from ultimately?
开国元勋们非常明确，正如我确信你将在你的书中、我的书中所写的那样，我们的权利来自上帝。
Well, the founders were very clear, as I'm sure you're putting in your book and in my book, that our rights come from God.
这一点非常关键，因为如果我们的权利来自上帝，那就意味着任何政府或其他人都无权剥夺它们。
And that's pretty key because if our rights come from God, then that means no government or other people can rightfully take them away.
这一直是美国建国的关键，也使美国与众不同。
So that's been a key of our American founding, and it's really distinguished America.
然而，如今只有十分之四的美国人，包括自认为是基督徒的人，认为我们的权利来自上帝。
Yet only four in 10 Americans, including self identified Christians, now say that our rights come from God.
大多数人说权利来自政府。
Most say they come from government.
有些人说权利来自进化和社会传统。
Some say they come from evolution, social tradition.
进化。
Evolution.
令人担忧。
Concerning.
这是我听过的最愚蠢的事了。
That's the dumbest thing I've heard in a while.
不管那到底是什么意思。
Whatever heck that means.
是的。
Yeah.
这很有趣，因为这触及了一个问题：即使某件事是真的，如果没人知道它是真的，那也没用，而这件事是每一个美国人——我认为也是世界上每个人——都应该知道的。
Well, this is interesting because this gets to the issue of like, it doesn't matter that something's true if nobody knows it's true, and this is something that every single American, I would say everybody in the world, should know.
有一位上帝。
There is a God.
他赐予我们自由。
He gives us freedom.
他赐予我们权利，而我们建立政府的原因就是为了保障这些权利。
He gives us rights, and the reason we have government is to secure those rights.
这是最基础的道理，我认为几十年前，每一个美国人都在小学时就明白了这一点。
This is as basic as it gets, and I would say a few decades ago, every single American got that in grammar school.
每一个美国人。
Every single American.
这是无法回避的，但我们已经逐渐远离了这一点。
It was inescapable, but we have drifted away from that.
这正是我想要写一本关于这个主题的书的原因之一，显然你的书也直接探讨了这个问题。
It's one of the reasons that I wanted to write my book on this subject, and obviously your book deals with it very directly.
但我们过去都明白这一点，如果我们不再知道这一点，我们就真的失去了自由。
But we used to all know this, and if we don't know this, we really cease to be free.
嗯，这就是关键所在。
Well, see, that's the key point.
你知道，现在有些人说，让我们成为美国人的东西是我们的种族背景。
You know, we have some people today who says, well, the thing that make us American is is our ethnicity.
不，不是这样的。
No, it's not.
实际上，是因为我们的基本信念。
Actually, it's because of our fundamental beliefs.
正如伟大的英国作家G.K.切斯特顿所说，他深受C.S.刘易斯等人喜爱。
And, none other than the great GK Chesterton, the great English writer that CS Lewis loved and others.
他在20世纪20年代来到美国，后来离开时写了一本书，记录了他在美国的所见所感。
When he came to America in the 1920s, he then went away and wrote a book, what he saw in America.
他说了一些非常敏锐的话，尤其是对于一个非美国人而言。
And he said something really perceptive, especially for someone who wasn't an American.
他说，美国是世界上唯一一个以信条为基础的国家。
He said, America is the only nation in the world that he knew about that is based on a creed.
那么，他这句话是什么意思呢？
Now, and what does he mean by that?
是的，我们确实有信仰和家庭的纽带，而且我们的祖先确实来自欧洲和英国。
Yes, we do have ties of faith and family and certainly we were founded by people from Europe and and and The United Kingdom.
但世界上其他地方都没有像美国这样拥有一个信条，他实际上将这一点与《独立宣言》联系起来，即我们相信人人生而平等，造物主赋予他们某些不可剥夺的权利，这些权利不是虚假的。
But America of all the places in the world, we have a creed, and he actually identified that with the Declaration of Independence, that we believe that all men are created equal and endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, which aren't fake rights.
它们不是左派所说的那些权利，而是生命、自由和追求幸福。
They're not the rights that the left says, but life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
政府的存在就是为了保障这些权利。
And that governments secured, you know, try to secure those rights.
他说，正是这些理想定义了美国人。
And he says that Americans, those are the ideals that make them, you know, an American.
今天我们有很多人，不仅来自左派，也来自右派，正在诋毁这一理念，说只要你是来自欧洲或英国，就足以让你成为美国人。
And we have a lot of people, not just on the left today, but on the right, who are trashing that idea and say, oh, the idea that American has a creed, as long as you're from say Europe or England, that makes you American.
你是个血统上的美国人。
You're a heritage American.
我想对这些人说，女士们先生们，没有什么比我们现在讨论的内容更重要了。
Wanna say to those people, ladies and gentlemen, there's nothing more important than what we're talking about right now.
没有任何事情比这更重要。
There's nothing more important.
有人声称你的种族背景让你成为美国人，这不仅极其愚蠢，而且邪恶。
For somebody to say that your ethnicity makes you American, that is not just incredibly stupid, it is evil.
这是邪恶的。
It is evil.
说这种话是反美的。
It is anti American to say that.
让人成为美国人的，是他们认同一套信念。
What makes someone American is they buy into a set of beliefs.
如果你不认同这些信念，不管你原本是哪国人，都不重要。
And if you don't buy into those beliefs, it doesn't matter what your nationality is.
所以这种部落主义，这正是我们当初想在美国摆脱的东西。
And so this tribalism, that's what we wanted to get away from in America.
对吧？
Right?
如果你在法国，你会说：我是法国人，因为我有法国名字，我父母是法国人，所以我是法国人。
So if you're in France, you say, well, I'm French because I have a French name and my parents are French, so that makes me French.
这在美国并不相关。
That is not relevant in America.
在美国，从建国之初，我们就不仅有来自英国的人。
In America, from our founding, we didn't just have, people from England here.
我们还有德国人。
We had, Germans here.
我们有各种各样的人，而成为美国人与你的血统背景毫无关系。
We had all kinds of people here, and being an American has nothing to do with your blood background.
你可以是黑人或白人。
You can be black or white.
你可以是棕色人种。
You could be brown.
你可以是任何种族。
You can be anything.
你所相信的，才真正定义了我们作为美国人的身份。
What you believe, that is what makes us Americans.
所以，右翼有些人这么做，约翰，我必须说，这令人憎恶。
So the fact that there are folks on the right doing this, John, I have to say that's despicable.
我的天，这真让我难以置信。
I mean, it's just amazing to me.
在你有机会回应之前，我想先说一点：不可剥夺的权利，女士们、先生们，'不可剥夺'的意思是，你无法被剥夺这些权利。
And I guess I wanna say this before I I give you a chance to get back in here, but the concept of inalienable rights, ladies and gentlemen, the word inalienable means you cannot be alienated from it.
如果你生而为人，是按上帝的形象被创造的，那么上帝赋予了你一些不可剥夺的权利。
If you are born a human being, you are created in God's image, and he has given you you he has endowed you with certain rights that are not alienable.
你不能被剥夺这些权利。
You cannot be separated from those rights.
它们属于你，因为上帝赐予了你。
They belong to you because God gave them to you.
唯一的问题是，有些人试图从你手中夺走它们。
The only thing is that some people can try to take them away from you.
所以你的书名是《由我们的创造者赋予》。
So the title of your book is endowed by Our Creator.
我必须说，约翰，人们自称属于右翼，这让我感到不可思议。
And I have to say that it is amazing to me, John, that people, they say they're on the right.
我不知道。
I don't know.
他们基本上就是愚蠢。
They're just dumb, basically.
我不明白他们怎么能自称保守，却信奉这种部落主义的东西。
I don't know how they are conservative on any level that they believe this kind of tribalist stuff.
这基本上就是希特勒所相信的。
This is basically what Hitler believed.
对吧？
Right?
这是血与土的理念。
It's blood and soil.
你知道，你是德国人，因为你出生在德国，你不是犹太人，这就让你成为德国人。
You know, you're a German because, you know, you were born in Germany and you you're not Jewish and that makes you German.
美国的真正意义恰恰在于摆脱这种思维方式。
It it that's really the whole point of America is to get away from that kind of thinking.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我的书有一部分讲的是建国，但实际上它还进一步探讨了：我们是如何失去这些的？
And so part of my book is on the founding, but actually it goes on to say, well, how did we lose that?
你说得对，社会达尔文主义的兴起以及类似思潮，导致了德国的血与土观念，而这些也正是美国曾经出现争议的原因。
And you're right, the rise of social Darwinism and things like that that led to the blood and soil beliefs in Germany is part of how actually we had controversy here in America.
所以我的书有一部分讲的是建国，但其余部分探讨的是，所谓对建国理念的攻击，其名称到底是什么？
And so one part of my book is on the founding, but the rest is, well, what was the attack on the founding, the name of of science so called?
那根本不是真正的科学。
It wasn't really science.
那么我们该如何回归这种理念？当前的事态又如何指向了这种回归？
And then how can we get back to that, and how are things pointing back to that?
但让我说明一点，我认为一些持正当关切的右翼人士之所以如此，是因为他们接受了左翼对‘人人生而平等’这类理念的误解和歪曲。
But let me just say one one justification, I think, of some legitimate people on the right who are concerned about this is that they have bought into the left wing misinterpretation and misrepresentation of things like all men are created equal.
因此，在我的章节中，我详细列举了七种建国者认为我们平等的具体方式。
And that's why in my chapter, I go through seven concrete ways that the founders thought we were equal.
这并不是说我们拥有相同的天赋，也不是说必须平均收入，或者所有文化都平等——不，这些都不是。
Now it's not that we're equal because we have the same talents or that we have to equalize income or that, no, that's not or that all cultures are equal.
他们并不是道德相对主义者。
They were not moral relativists.
但他们确实认为，我们有七种具体的平等之处：从我们由上帝创造、拥有不朽的灵魂，到一个大多数人不愿提及的消极方面——我们都是罪人。
But they did think there were seven concrete ways that we are equal from being created by God, from having souls that are immortal that last after life, to a negative thing, which most people don't talk about, it's we're sinners.
我们会腐化。
We're corruptible.
这是使我们与法国大革命如此不同的关键点之一。
This is one of the key things that that that made us so different from the French revolution.
法国大革命认为人类是可完善的，而美国的开国者们大多并不相信这一点。
The French revolution thought human beings were perfectible, and they thought and the founders of America, for the most part, did not believe that.
他们认为我们同样容易犯错。
They thought we were equally fallible.
因此，没有人能像上帝一样凌驾于他人之上，不受任何约束地统治人民。
That's why no human being can have you know, be like in the place of God and rule over people without any constraints.
因此，我深入探讨了开国者眼中我们七种平等的方式，以及我们不平等的地方，这意味什么，‘不可剥夺的权利’意味着什么，以及对这些观念的攻击。
And so I do go a deep dive into the seven ways we are all equal in the founders' views and the ways that we're not and what that means, what ineligible rights means, the attacks on that.
但接着我进一步讨论了在19世纪和20世纪初的进步时代，达尔文主义者以科学的名义如何摧毁了这些观念。
But then I go on to talk about how in the nineteenth century and in the progressive era in the early nineteen hundreds, this was trashed by Darwinists in the name of science.
这导致了专家治国、所谓的深层政府的兴起。
And that led us to the rise of the expert state, the deep state, if you will.
最后，我谈到现实如何正指向建国者及其所依据的圣经原则所揭示的真理。
And and so there's and then I talk in the end about actually how reality is pointing back to the truths of the founders and the biblical principles on which they drew.
大家好。
Hey there, folks.
我一直说，2026年必须是问责之年。
I've been saying that 2026 must be the year of accountability.
无论是在政府支出方面，还是在我们如何管理自己的家庭方面，我们都有道德责任去追求真相。
Whether talking about government spending, or the way we steward our own families, we have a moral duty to seek the truth.
但说实话，在医疗保险的世界里，真相常常是第一个牺牲品。
But let's be honest, in the world of Medicare, truth is often the first casualty.
老年人，比如我91岁的妈妈，每天都被大量的邮件和烦人的电话轰炸，这些信息更像宣传，而不是有用的指导。
Seniors, like my 91 year old mom, are bombarded with mailers and pushy phone calls that feel more like propaganda than helpful guidance.
这就是我重视Chapter这家合作伙伴的原因。
This is why I value my partners at Chapter.
他们秉持着一种不同的理念——独立。
They operate on a different principle, Independence.
Chapter 是唯一一家全国性的顾问机构，会审查所有可用的计划，以确保您获得真正符合您需求的保障。
Chapter is the only national advisor that reviews every single plan available to ensure you have the coverage that actually fits your needs.
他们已帮助许多人找到清晰的方向，历史上平均每年为会员节省约1,100美元的医疗费用。
They've helped people find clarity and on average have historically helped members save an average of $1,100 a year on healthcare costs.
他们的服务完全免费，且耗时不到二十分钟。
Their support is completely free and takes under twenty minutes.
如果您对您的医疗保险有任何疑问，或希望更好地管理您的资源，请致电 Chapter：(571) 421-1253。
If you have questions about your Medicare or want to ensure you're a good steward of your resources, please call Chapter at (571) 421-1253.
这就是 Chapter，电话是 (571) 421-1253。
That's Chapter at (571) 421-1253.
与真人交谈，获得您应得的坦诚回答。
Talk to a real person and get the honest answers you deserve.
这非常重要，每个人都需要理解这一点：我们是如何偏离了这些理念，或者某些概念是如何被扭曲、背离了原本的含义。
Well, this is so important, for everyone to understand this, how we've drifted away from these ideas or how some of these, concepts have been perverted, twisted away from their original meaning.
但当您谈到法国大革命时，我忍不住笑，因为在建国初期，人们就已经对这些概念感到困惑了，对吧？
But when you talk about the French Revolution, I just have to laugh that even in the founding era, people were confused by this, right?
像托马斯·潘恩和托马斯·杰斐逊这样的人，认为在没有上帝的情况下，依然可以拥有所有这些美好的东西——自由、平等之类的。
People like Thomas Paine and Thomas Jefferson, they thought it's possible to have all this wonderful stuff, liberty and equality and whatever, without God.
事实上，这是不可能的。
And the fact is it is not possible.
这根本不可能。
It is simply not possible.
法国大革命的血腥暴行揭示了这一点，但这些错误的思想却延续了两个多世纪，如今我们迫切需要重新学习我们国家过去所熟知的信念——哪些是我们相信的，哪些是我们不相信的。
The bloodbath of the French Revolution revealed that, but those bad ideas have carried on for over two centuries, and it's vital at this moment that we relearn what it is that we used to know as a nation about what we believe and what we don't believe.
那么，约翰，是什么促使你写下这本书的呢？‘由我们的造物主赋予’？
So what made you decide to write this book, John, endowed by our creator?
因为这些是最核心的理念。
Because these are the most central ideas.
是的。
Yeah.
你知道，那是去年的事，我居然在六个月里就写完了，这我本来觉得根本不可能。
You know, it was last year, so I I knocked it off in six months, which I didn't think could be possible.
这本书很短。
It's a short book.
只有大约一百五十到二百页。
It's only about a 150, 200 pages.
但我当时在祷告，思考着一些事情，想着上帝接下来要我做什么。
But I was actually praying and and thinking about things and what what God was gonna have me do next.
我记得自己当大学教授的时候，教过数百名学生关于《独立宣言》的内容，他们虽然持同情态度，但一开始根本不懂。
And I thought, you know, I remember from my time as a college professor, I taught hundreds of students about the Declaration of Independence, and they were sympathetic, but they really didn't understand it going in.
我想，也许我有些见解，因为我的研究生训练，我的博士学位主要聚焦在美国建国时期。
And I thought, you know, I might have some things, because my graduate training, my PhD actually focused a lot on the American founding.
我觉得我有些话可以说。
And I thought I might have some things to say.
而我这本书的关键部分是，它不仅仅关于建国，更关乎建国理念是如何被背叛的。
And then the key part of my book that actually, you know, it's not just about the founding, it's how the founding was betrayed.
为什么在奴隶制这个问题上，大多数开国元勋都知道奴隶制是错误的？
Why was it, say, on the issue of slavery that most of the founders knew slavery was wrong?
即使是那些拥有奴隶的人，也对此感到羞愧。
Even those who held slaves, they were embarrassed by it.
许多开国元勋在革命后，在北方各州解放了他们的奴隶，因为他们知道这与‘人人生而平等’相冲突。
And many, you know, founders then emancipated their slaves in many Northern states after the revolution because they knew this conflicted with all men are created equal.
他们实际上废除了奴隶制。
They they actually abolished slavery.
但后来我们陷入了僵局。
But then we got stuck in that.
这个故事的一部分是科学的兴起。
Well, part of the story is the rise of science.
以科学名义提出的虚假主张。
The rise of false claims in the name of science.
科学种族主义，最终由达尔文生物学最直率地推动。
Scientific racism, which ultimately was pushed most forthrightly by Darwinian biology.
然后达尔文生物学进一步主张：我们其实并不平等。
And then Darwinian biology pushed, well, we're not really equal.
我们所有人都不是。
None of us.
即使你是白人，你也不平等。
Whether you even if you're white, you're not equal.
这就是为什么我们需要以科学的名义由科学专家来治理。
That's why we need to be governed by scientific experts in the name of science.
这在二十世纪初由伍德罗·威尔逊等人大力倡导，形成了我们今天的专家治理体制。
This was championed by like Woodrow Wilson in the early twentieth century and the expert state we have.
我们在新冠疫情期间所看到的一切，正是十九世纪和二十世纪初对美国立国原则进行攻击的直接结果。
What we saw during COVID is a direct result of this assault on the American founding in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries.
我曾多次公开说过，如果你相信达尔文进化论，你就不会对种族主义感到道德上的不安，因为达尔文进化论认为，我们所有人都是在没有目的的情况下进化的，我们只是如此进化了，根据这一理论，某些物种、某些肤色、某些种族比其他种族更进化。
I've said this a lot publicly about how if you believe in Darwinian evolution, you should have no moral problem with racism because Darwinian evolution says, hey, we all evolved without any purpose, whatever, we just evolved as we evolved, and according to that, some species, some colors, some races are more evolved than others.
我不相信这一点，因为我是个基督徒。
I don't believe that because I'm a Christian.
我相信《圣经》所说的话。
I believe what the Bible says.
但如果你不相信圣经的教导，那么在十九世纪末、二十世纪初，这种观点就完全合乎逻辑。
But if you don't believe what the Bible says, then it's perfectly logical, and you are talking about this in the latter part of the nineteenth century, early part of the twentieth century.
当时有一些人成为了优生学家。
There were people, they became eugenicists.
他们说某些种族优于其他种族。
They said some races are better than others.
科学证明了这一点。
Science proves it.
根据这种观点，种族主义根本不是坏事。
And according to this, racism is nothing bad.
但我们这些相信圣经教导、相信上帝对人类的看法的人，知道种族主义是错误的，但令我感到不可思议的是，他们对此既不正视也不坦诚。
But those of us who believe what the bible says, who believe what god says about human beings, we know that racism is wrong, but it's so fascinating to me that they don't deal they're not honest about this.
他们假装说：我信科学。
They kinda pretend like, I believe in science.
我信进化论，同时我反对种族主义。
I believe in evolution, and I'm against racism.
我认为，那你为什么反对种族主义呢？
And I think, well, why are you against racism?
我知道我反对种族主义是因为圣经这么说，而且我们的建国文献也说人人生而平等。
I know why I'm against racism because of what the bible says, and in our founding documents, it says all men are created equal.
这是个圣经里的观念，但一个相信达尔文进化论的科学家，凭什么反对种族主义呢？
That's a biblical idea, but why would a scientist who believes in Darwinian evolution be against us?
他们本质上是在假装，自己在这上面有值得听的意见。
It's they're pretending basically that they have anything to say on this worth listening to.
真正令人难过的是，这一点在十九世纪如此，现在也是如此：有太多基督徒接受了这些科学种族主义论调，尽管这明显违背了圣经教导。
And you know where it really gets sad is and this was true in the nineteenth century, and it's true right now, is that there were so many Christians who glommed on to these scientific racist arguments despite the fact that it was clearly against biblical teaching.
在十九世纪，我们就曾有这样一群人，他们基本上拥抱了这种反基督教的科学。
And we had that in the nineteenth century who basically embraced this sort of anti Christian science.
而今天，你看，有些人声称代表基督徒，却推崇希特勒，说某些种族在生物学上劣于其他种族。
And then today on, well, the gripper right, you have people who are claiming to speak for Christians who are elevating Hitler and saying that, you know, some races are biologically inferior to others.
这些都是十九世纪到二十世纪初所发生事情的直接后果，今天你甚至能在那些自称是基督徒、实则完全背离基督教的人身上看到这一点。
These are sort of the direct sort of result of what happened in the nineteenth, early twentieth century, and you can even see it today among people who claim to be Christians but are really anything but.
事实上，所有人生而平等这个观点，我得说，人们总以为是杰斐逊想出来的什么高论。
Well, the idea that all men are created equal, I have to say, you know, people act like Jefferson came up with that or something.
说实话，各位，我们的所有开国先贤都明白这一点。
And honestly, folks, all of our founders understood this.
杰斐逊提出了这句话，但这一切都是我们立国的根本。
Jefferson came up with the phrase, but all of this is fundamental to our founding.
整个理念可以追溯到约翰·洛克，再到清教徒，再到宗教改革，最终回到《圣经》，这些都是圣经中的思想，但以前从未在政府中表达过。
The whole idea that you can trace it backwards through John Locke, to the Puritans, to the Reformation, to the Bible, these are biblical ideas, but they had never been expressed in a government before.
在世界历史上，这些理念从未被作为国家信条表达过，直到《独立宣言》中那句‘由我们的造物主赋予’突然成为国家信条。
They had never been expressed in a national creed ever before in the history of the world, and suddenly they come into being thanks to the document that your title, John West, endowed by our creator in the Declaration, suddenly it becomes a national creed.
所以你所说的——当然这是对的——就是真理始终在斗争中。
And so what you're saying, which of course is true, is that there's always a war for the truth.
尽管这些理念在1776年就已确立，但关于我们信仰什么、坚持什么的斗争仍在继续。
Even though this is established in 1776, the war for what we believe and what we're gonna stand for carries on.
因此，这些理念一直遭受着攻击。
And so that there was a war on these ideas.
在十九世纪，有很多人并不相信这一观点，他们利用十九世纪和二十世纪的科学来对抗这一理念。
There were plenty of people who didn't believe it, in the nineteenth century, and they used science in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries to go to war with this idea.
这非常有趣。
It's fascinating.
真正有趣的是，正如我在我的书中所提到的，建国者们在他们的私人信件和演讲中大量讨论了他们所说的‘人类平等’是什么意思。
And what's really interesting is you go and I do this in my book, is the founders wrote a lot in their private letters and in their speeches about what they meant by human equality.
比如约翰·威利斯曼牧师谈到，我们是道德生物，是灵性生物，拥有理性，而跳蚤却没有。
Like Reverend John Willisman talked about how we're moral creatures, how we're spiritual creatures, how we have access to reason whereas fleas don't.
詹姆斯·威尔逊，签署了《独立宣言》和《宪法》的人，是建国者中最杰出的法律理论家和哲学家之一。
James Wilson, who signed both the Declaration and the Constitution, was one of the most gifted legal theorists and philosophers of the founders.
他发表了一系列法律讲座，探讨了人类在自然中的独特性以及自然道德法则。
And he gave a whole series of law lectures that talked about man's uniqueness in nature and the natural moral law.
因此，我回溯并深入研究了许多人未曾阅读过的建国者们所阐述的文献。
And so I go back and plumb the depths of writings that a lot of people have not read that the founders were they explicated.
所以你说得对。
So you're right.
这不仅仅是杰斐逊一个人的想法。
It wasn't just Jefferson.
这是整个建国理念的一部分，而且他们对此写了很多。
It was the whole philosophy of the founding, and they wrote a lot about it.
顺便说一下，今天许多支持生命权的人会谈论生命权。
They also by the way, today, many people who are pro life, they they talk about the right to life.
建国者们实际上认同这一点。
The founders actually agreed with that.
詹姆斯·威尔逊在他的法律讲座中谈到，堕胎是对生命权的不公正剥夺。
James Wilson, in his law lectures, talked about abortion being the unjust taking of life against the right to life.
这再次说明，他是乔治·华盛顿任命的最高法院早期大法官之一。
This is what again, he was one of the early justices of the Supreme Court appointed by George Washington.
他参与起草了宪法，并且签署了《独立宣言》。
He sought he wrote helped write the constitution, and he, you know, signed the declaration.
他在谈论堕胎如何违背生命权。
He's talking about how abortion is against the right to life.
他谈论的是自杀违背了生命权，因为我们的生命最终来自上帝。
He's talking about how suicide is against the right to life because ultimately our lives come from God.
所以我们没有权利结束自己的生命。
So even we don't have the right to take our own lives.
所以，那些支持生命权并主张这是生命权的人，你们并没有偏离创始人们的观点。
So it's not those of you who are pro life and arguing that that's a right to life, that actually you're you're not straying from what the founders believe.
创始人们实际上讨论过这一点。
The founders actually talked about this.
我之前稍微谈过你书中关于科学和进化论的内容，但请再多讲讲，因为这些想法真的很糟糕。
Well, I've talked a little bit about what you talk about in your book about science and evolution, but talk more about that because these are really bad ideas.
正如你所说，右翼中有一些部落主义分子。
And as you were saying, there are people on the tribalist right.
这些人，朋友们，他们更认同希特勒，而不是华盛顿、亚当斯、杰斐逊和富兰克林。
These are the kind of people, folks, that they agree more with Adolf Hitler than with George Washington and Adams and Jefferson and Franklin.
他们确实是部落主义者。
They really are tribalist.
这些观点从根本上说是反美的，但现在我们的公共话语中有些人正再次向这个方向倾斜，我们需要澄清，他们所相信的东西是错误的。
These are fundamentally anti American views, but there are people now in our public discourse who are leaning in this direction again, and we need to clarify, that what they believe is not true.
这是反美的，但我知道你在书里谈到了这一点。
It's anti American, but I know you go into this in the book.
是的。
Yeah.
所以，创始人相信我们有一位创造者。
So just, you know, the founders believe we have a creator.
他赋予了我们权利。
He gave rights.
我们在权利上本质上是平等的，在创造者创造我们的方式上也是如此，而且存在着自然法则和自然之神，他们指的是存在一种绝对的、非相对的道德法则。
We're fundamentally equal by you know, in our rights and in in the ways the creator created us, and that there are laws of nature and nature's God, by which they meant there was an absolute moral law that's non relative.
所有这些观点基本上都被达尔文主义摧毁了。
All those things were basically trashed by Darwinism.
达尔文主义声称我们不需要创造者，因为我们是无引导过程的产物。
Darwinism really claimed we don't need a creator because they're a product of an unguided process.
达尔文主义者基本上声称我们并非生而平等。
Darwinists basically claimed we're not created equal.
我们从根本上就不平等，不仅在不同种族和民族之间，甚至每个个体都只是被美化了的动物。
We're fundamentally unequal, not just in different races and ethnicities, but even any human being is a glorified animal.
这就是为什么我们需要专家来引导我们，因为普通人是不够的。
That's why we need experts to guide us because ordinary people aren't enough.
然后，达尔文主义助长了道德相对主义，因为正如人类是历史的偶然产物一样，达尔文写了一整本书《人类的由来》，其中有多章讨论道德。
And then the Darwinism helped lead to moral relativism because just like if humans are an accident of history, Darwin wrote a whole book, The Descent of Man, where he has chapters talking about morality.
在他看来，道德只不过是在特定时间和地点生存所必需的行为。
In his view, morality simply was what you needed to do to survive in a certain given time and place.
因此，道德在时间和情境上是彻底相对的。
And so it was radically relative across time and situation.
于是你就得到了像阿尔弗雷德·金西和性革命这样的东西，但实际上很多人并不知道。
And so how you get things like Alfred Kinsey and the sexual revolution, actually many people don't know.
金西实际上接受的是进化生物学的训练。
Kinsey was actually trained as an evolutionary biologist.
他用进化论的视角来看待事物。
And he looked at things in evolutionary terms.
因此，在这种观点下，不可能存在非相对的道德。
And so you can't have non relative morality in that.
所以，达尔文主义对真实世界和真理的反抗，攻击了建国理念的所有核心原则。
And so basically, the the Darwinian revolt against, I think, the real world against truth attacked all the central tenets of the founding.
你关于种族主义的部分说得对，因为从基督教的观点来看，我们是被创造主慈爱地创造的，并且反映了这种神圣形象。
And, you you were right with regard to the racism part because, again, in the Christian view, we're creator created us lovingly, and we reflect that.
在达尔文的观点中，我们只是我们祖先在特定时代和环境中为生存所需而偶然演化的产物。
In Darwin's view, we're an accident of whatever our ancestors needed for survival in their particular time and place.
因此，达尔文认为，不同种族、不同人类群体之间应该存在根本性的差异。
And so Darwin thought you should expect radical differences between different races, different human populations.
我的意思是，确实存在差异，但在基督教的观点中——我认为这与现实相符——人类实际上詹姆斯·威尔逊曾谈到过这一点。
And I mean, there are differences, but in in the idea of the Christian idea, which I think is borne out by reality, you know, human beings Actually James Wilson talked about this.
每一个个体，每一种文化，都有自己的语言。
Every human being, every different culture has a language.
正如他所说，在语言中，人们会谈论什么是值得钦佩的或不值得钦佩的。
And as he says, in language, they talk about things that are admirable or not admirable.
或者他们确实有一种方式来谈论道德，并且像C.
Or they actually have a way of speaking about morality and they understand, like C.
S.
S.
刘易斯所言，有一条基本的道德法则铭刻在我们的心中。
Lewis has said, that there's a fundamental moral law written on our hearts.
因此，即使语言本身，如果你比较不同文化，也会发现许多相似之处，这表明了所有人之间的相似性有多么真实。
And so even language itself, if you compare across cultures, there are actually so many similarities that points to the reality of just how like each other all human beings are.
是的，存在差异，但这些并不是关于我们最根本的东西。
Yes, there are differences, but they're not the most fundamental things about us.
创始人们的观点正是如此，他们并不是左翼人士。
That was the the point of the founders were, again, they were not left wingers.
这就是为什么我认为一些现代保守派误解了这一点。
And that's why I think some modern conservatives misunderstand this.
他们并不是说每个人都必须有相同的收入，每个人都必须有相同的天赋，而你却假装不是这样。
They weren't saying that everyone has to have the same income, everyone has to have the same talents, and you pretend otherwise.
不。
No.
但在我们的基本权利和本质中，将人类与跳蚤或石头相比，我们本质上是平等的，这具有深远的影响。
But in our fundamental rights, in our makeup, comparing a human being to a flea or a rock, We are fundamentally equal, and that has repercussions.
我们的政府应当基于被统治者的同意，而不是基于非选举产生的精英。
Why our government should be based consent of the governed, not on unelected elites.
而且，我在自己的书中也提到过这一点：如果你在建国时期是一位虔诚的基督徒，比如詹姆斯·奥蒂斯 Jr. 和约翰·亚当斯等人，他们都知道奴隶制是错误的。
And basically, and I do talk about this a little bit in my own book that if if you were a very serious Christian in the founding era, like James Otis junior and John Adams and others, they knew that slavery was wrong.
他们一直在反对奴隶制。
They they were pushing against it.
所以，说所有开国元勋都接受奴隶制，这是一种谎言。
So this lie that all the founders were okay with slavery.
不。
No.
不。
No.
不。
No.
不。
No.
不。
No.
这是一场斗争，朋友们。
This was a battle, folks.
这是一场斗争，他们中的许多人憎恨奴隶制并为之抗争。
This was a battle, and many of them despised slavery and fought against it.
他们没有获得全部投票。
They didn't have all the votes.
因此，为了获得批准，为了实现独立，他们不得不暂时妥协，与南卡罗来纳州和佐治亚州达成一致。
So in order to ratify, in order to have independence, they had to kind of go along with South Carolina and Georgia.
他们不得不妥协，但这并不意味着他们认同这一点。
They had to go along, but didn't mean that they agreed with it.
这源于他们的圣经世界观。
And it came from their biblical worldview.
他们知道，如果圣经是真实的，那么我们所有人都是上帝的孩子，都是罪人。
They knew that if the Bible is true, then we are all children of God, we are all sinners.
人们必须明白这一点，那种说所有开国元勋都默认接受奴隶制或强奸的谎言，根本不是真的。
This is absolutely vital that people understand this, that lie that all the founders were somehow fine with slavery or with rape, it's simply not true.
我喜欢你提到这里的专家观点，因为我们都被灌输了这种想法：存在一个专家阶层，他们能告诉我们该做什么、该想什么，而对我来说，最能说明这种想法错误的例证是威廉·F。
I like the idea that you talk about the expert stuff here because we have all been brainwashed into thinking that there's this expert class and they can tell us what to do and what to think, and for me, the best reminder of why that's wrong is what William F.
巴克利曾经说过的一句名言。
Buckley once famously said.
他说，他宁愿让波士顿电话簿上的前300个人来治理，也不愿让哈佛大学的教职员工来治理。
He said that he'd rather be governed by the first 300 names in the Boston phone book than by the faculty of Harvard College.
换句话说，普通人具备常识，能够分辨对错、善恶，其判断力往往胜过像哈佛大学这样的知识分子。
In other words, your average person, has the ability to have common sense and to weigh right and wrong and what's good and what's going to help better than the intellectuals, in this case at Harvard College.
但所有这些知识分子、受过教育的阶层，今天我们看到文化精英、世俗精英，他们完全脱离了现实。
But all of these intellectuals, the educated class, we see this today with the cultural elites, the secular elites, they are completely out of touch with reality.
他们中的大多数没有家庭，或者没有孩子，或者没有正常的工作，所以才能拥有这些荒谬的想法。
Most of them don't have families, or they don't have kids, or they don't have normal jobs, so they can afford to have these preposterous ideas.
就好比，你是个社区组织者，然后成了美国参议员，你从未真正有过一份真正的工作。
It's like, you know, if you're a community organizer and then you become a US senator, you've never actually had a real job.
你从未真正思考过这些问题。
You've never had to think about this stuff.
但约翰，这正是我们现在所面对的重大谎言之一，我知道你在你的新书《由我们的创造者赋予》中也谈到了这一点。
But this is one of the big lies, John, that we're dealing with right now, and I know you talk about it in the book, in in your new book endowed by our creator.
谈谈这个吧，因为对我来说，这至关重要。
Talk about that because to me, this is so central.
在十九世纪后期，这种情况并非偶然。
Well, in the latter part of the nineteenth century, this was this was not happenstance.
这些人明确拒绝了建国理念，因为他们认为达尔文主义表明我们本质上是不平等的。
These were people who explicitly rejected the founding because they thought Darwinism pointed to the fact that we were fundamentally unequal.
我实际上梳理了19世纪末20世纪初美国政治学的几位奠基人，他们当时就说建国者们是错的。
And I actually go through the leading founders of American political science in the late nineteenth, early twentieth century who are saying the founders were wrong.
他们关于自然权利的观点是错的。
They were wrong about natural rights.
他们关于人民同意治理的观点也是错的。
They were wrong about consent of the governed.
因此我们需要用中立、客观的非选举产生的专家来取代这些制度。
And need That's why we need to replace things with unelected experts who are neutral and objective.
但建国者们并不反对专家知识。
Now the founders were not against expert knowledge.
他们的观点是，所有人都会犯错，所以任何人都不应拥有不受制约的权力。
Their point is everyone is fallible, so no one should have unchecked power.
你最不应该做的，就是给非选举产生的专家完全自由的权力。
And the last thing you should do is give unelected experts carte blanche to do anything.
这就是为什么我们需要人民的同意来治理。
That's why you have consent of the government.
所以并不是我们每个人都同样专业。
So it's not that all of us are equally expert.
而是我们每个人都对此有切身利益，人们不能高高在上地对你发号施令，说你必须这么做。
It's that all of us do have a stake in this and that people can't just lord it over you and just say, well, you have to do this.
我们甚至不需要为此辩护。
We don't even have to justify it.
但关键是，这种观念源于一种意识形态，实际上主要是达尔文主义的意识形态。
So that but but the point is this came out of an ideology, actually largely a Darwinian ideology.
正如我在书中所证明的，十九世纪末期，他们在哈佛大学等地方正是以此为由抨击建国者，因为他们认为建国者观念落后，对现实的理解过时了。
And as I prove in my book, this is what they were actually trashing the founding in in places like Harvard and other places at the end of the nineteenth century because they thought the founders were bad and had an outdated view of reality.
在建国时期，他们也明白，自然和科学指向一个客观的创造者和客观的道德。
I also taught at the time of the founding, they understood that nature, that science pointed toward an objective creator and an objective morality.
到了十九世纪末，他们却说，哦，现在达尔文主义的科学推翻了这一切。
And so by the end of the nineteenth century, they said, oh, now Darwinian science overthrows all that.
所以这一切都过时了。
So it makes it outdated.
错了。
Wrong.
在我的书的最后，我谈到了我的朋友史蒂文·迈耶等人，他们正在展示——实际上在你的那本关于上帝和反对无神论的书里也提到——如今科学实际上正在回归到我们的建国者用来建立美国的那些真理。
And at the very end of my book, I get into things like my friend Steven Meyer and others who are showing and, know, in your book actually on God and against atheism, how science today actually is pointing back to the very truths that our founders based America on.
所以我们必须回到原点。
So we have to come full circle.
所以我实际上持某种乐观态度。
So I'm actually somewhat positive.
是的。
Yes.
我们正处在一个极具挑战的时代，但现实已经重新确立了自身。
We're in a very challenging time, but reality has reasserted itself.
正如我在最后一章所详述的，无论是人类平等的证据——这种证据从未像现在这样充分——还是关于造物主存在的证据，以及道德不能仅仅被简化为适者生存或某种特定文化产物的证据，都愈发清晰。
And as in the last chapter I go through, whether it be from human equality, the evidence for human equality is is never greater than it's ever been before, the evidence that we have a creator, the evidence that morality can't just be reduced to survival of the fittest or or what's in your particular culture.
而在消极的一面，是那种认为专家意见无需制衡就能奏效的证据。
And on the negative side, the evidence that expert opinion without checks and balances that somehow that works.
我们刚刚经历了新冠疫情，而且我们
Well, we've just lived through COVID, and we
我知道那并不只是——我想说，女士们先生们，如果你们想要最有力的例子来证明这并不成立，我随便举几个名字。
I know that that doesn't was just gonna say, ladies and gentlemen, if you want the greatest example of how that's not true, I'm just gonna throw a couple of names past you.
弗朗西斯·柯林斯。
Francis Collins.
是的。
Yes.
安东尼·福奇。
Anthony Fauci.
对。
Yes.
还有你知道的，我今天的嘉宾约翰·韦斯特，我和你讨论过这个问题，弗朗西斯·柯林斯和安东尼·福奇的恶行，他们与共产党中国、世卫组织合作，向全球人口强加了可怕、有害的理念。
And you know, John West, my guest today, you and I have talked about this, the wickedness of Francis Collins, Anthony Fauci, what they did working with the communist Chinese, the WHO, to foist horrible, horrible ideas, harmful ideas on the global population.
幸亏有上帝的恩典，他们失败了，但你在最近的书中写到了这一点。
By the grace of God, they failed, but you wrote about it in your most recent book.
我正努力回想一下，斯德哥尔摩综合征
I'm trying to remember this, Stockholm Syndrome
基督教。
Christianity.
基督教。
Christianity.
斯德哥尔摩的朋友们，如果你还没读过这本书，我强烈推荐，《斯德哥尔摩综合征与基督教》，你之所以会面对这种情况，是因为人们直到亲眼看到这些恶行才会相信，然后惊呼：天哪，我完全不知道。
Stockholm folks, if you haven't read that book, highest recommendations, Stockholm Syndrome Christianity, you deal with this because people don't believe the evil until they read it with their own eyes and they go, oh my goodness, I had no idea.
梅根·巴什姆的《出卖的牧者》中深入探讨了这一点。
Shepherds For Sale by Megan Basham, she goes into this.
我们的朋友赛斯·格鲁伯也写过关于科学家以科学之名所做的一些极其邪恶的事情，真的非常邪恶。
Our friend Seth Gruber has written about this Really wicked stuff done by scientists in the name of science, really, really wicked stuff.
这些就是我们许多人愚蠢地将生活交托给的所谓专家。
These are the so called experts that many of us foolishly turned our lives over to.
他们做出了这些决定，而我们能在过去几年中幸存下来，全靠上帝的恩典。
They made these decisions, and it's only by God's grace that we survived what we did in the last few years.
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是的。
Yeah.
我想对像弗朗西斯·柯林斯这样的人说，我仍然视他为基督里的弟兄，也不会妄断他内心的真实想法。
And I wanna say, for people like Francis Collins, I still regard him as a brother in Christ, and I don't try to assume what he did in his heart.
但他是一位公众人物，你可以评判他公开的行为。
But he was a public official, and you can judge what he did publicly.
如果我是基督徒，我知道即使在福音派中，仍有人没有意识到我们在新冠疫情期间被蒙骗得多严重，我建议你们读一读《受造物所赋予》这本书，因为我有一章专门讲这个，现在国会已经发布了官方报告。
And I would say that if you're a a Christian I know there is still out there, even among evangelicals, who don't realize how much we were bamboozled during COVID, read Endowed by the Creator because I have a section on that, that there have now been government reports through through congress.
已有经过同行评审的学术文章真正揭露了发生的事情。
There have been peer reviewed journal articles that really expose what has happened.
所以，如果你对新冠的认知还停留在2021年，那就读读我的书，至少获取一些可能打开你视野的参考资料——因为我最近刚与一位非常真诚的基督徒交流过，他仿佛2021年之后什么都没发生过。
And so if your knowledge base of COVID is stuck back in 2021, Read my book to at least get the references that might open your Because I know I've interacted recently with a really sincere Christian who is very much it's like nothing had happened since 2021.
他只是在重复2021年的那些话术。
It was just basically giving talking points from 2021.
这并不是现实，你需要明白这一点。
That's not reality, and you need to know that.
如果你不了解，还有很多书可以读。
And if you don't, there there are many books you can read.
但我的最新著作中，你会找到一些可能挑战你固有观念的参考资料。
But my latest book, you'll find some references that there that might challenge your preconceptions on that.
《被创造者赋予》的出版日期是什么时候？
And what is the release date on Endowed by our creator?
它刚刚上市，现在就可以购买了。
Well, it's just out, so people can get it now.
它这个月刚出版。
It's just out this month.
全新的。
Brand new.
可以买到。
Can get it.
全新的。
Brand new.
由我们的创造者赋予。
Endowed by our Creator.
约翰，我想和你多聊聊。
I wanna talk to you more, John.
感谢你所做的一切。
Thank you for the work that you do.
谢谢你的新书《由我们的创造者赋予》。
Thank you for the new book Endowed by our Creator.
这非常重要。
This is very, very important.
上帝保佑你，我的朋友。
God bless you, my friend.
谢谢你，埃里克。
Thank you, Eric.
和你交谈总是令人愉快。
It's always a delight to talk with you.
我不喜欢制造恐慌。
I don't like alarmism.
我不喜欢煽动恐惧。
I don't like fear mongering.
我尤其不喜欢那些从恐慌中牟利的人。
I especially don't like people who profit from panic.
但我确实相信要说真话，尤其是在市场不断提醒我们事物多么脆弱的时候。
But I do believe in telling the truth, especially when the markets are reminding us how fragile things are.
在过去几周里，我们都目睹了市场的波动，股价剧烈震荡，信心动摇，长期以来的假设突然变得不再稳固。
Over the last few weeks, we've all watched the volatility, stocks swinging, confidence shaking, longest standing assumptions suddenly looking less solid.
许多经济学家将这一时刻称为‘万物泡沫’，即几乎所有资产类别都因多年的廉价资金和鲁莽的全球政策而同时被推高。
Many economists are calling this moment the everything bubble, where nearly every asset class has been inflated at the same time by years of cheap money and reckless global policy.
这与政治无关。
This isn't political.
这也不是党派之争。
It's not partisan.
这是数学问题。
It's math.
当信心开始瓦解时，历史告诉我们接下来通常会发生什么。
And when confidence erodes, history shows us what tends to happen next.
因此，我花时间了解了人类在不确定时期保护财富的最古老方式之一——实物黄金和白银。
That's why I've taken time to educate myself on one of the oldest ways people have protected wealth during uncertainty, physical gold and silver.
我与Genesis Gold Group合作，这是一家基于信仰、注重价值观的公司，提供清晰的信息，没有炒作，也没有压力。
I partnered with Genesis Gold Group, a faith based values driven company offering clear information, no hype, no pressure.
他们整理了一份免费的财务生存报告，解释当前正在发生什么、为什么多个市场会同时下跌，以及家庭现在可以考虑的审慎措施。
They put together a free financial survival report explaining what's happening, why multiple markets can fall together, and what prudent steps families can consider now.
我鼓励你阅读这份报告，然后自己做出判断。
I encourage you to read it and decide for yourself.
请访问 metaxasgoldira.com。
Please go to metaxasgoldira.com.
网址是 metaxasgoldira.com。
That's metaxasgoldira.com.
你不需要恐慌，但你必须保持知情。
You don't need to panic, but you do need to be informed.
在这样的时期，智慧比乐观更重要。
In times like these, wisdom matters more than optimism.
大家好。
Hey there, folks.
欢迎。
Welcome.
现在，我很荣幸邀请到一位新嘉宾。
Right now, it's my privilege to have a new guest.
他叫保罗·布朗。
His name is Paul Brown.
这是他的真名。
That's his real name.
至少他是这么告诉我的。
At least he tells me it's his real name.
这不是编造的。
It's not made up.
他是一名海军战斗退伍军人、情报分析师和企业家，也是一个有信仰的人。
He's a marine combat veteran and intelligence analyst and entrepreneur who is a man of faith.
他还是Wasson手表公司的创始人。
He also is the founder of Wasson Watch Company.
你知道吗，保罗·布朗，欢迎来到节目。
You know, Paul Brown, welcome to the program.
你在某些方面让我想起了自己，我真的不知道从哪里开始。
You remind me on some level of myself in in that I don't know where to start.
你是一个非常多元的人物。
You're you're you're an eclectic figure.
你如此多才多艺，我们能从你的生平开始吗？
You're you you can we start with your biography?
你的故事是什么？
What's your story?
你在哪里长大？你是如何成为今天的自己的？
Where did you grow up, and how did you get to be who you are today?
是的
Yeah.
谢谢你邀请我，埃里克。
Thanks for having me, Eric.
我的背景非常多元。
Now my my background is very eclectic.
我出生在阿肯色州，一个上世纪八十年代的乡村地区，并在那里长大。
I I was born in Arkansas, in rural Arkansas in the mid eighties and grew up there.
我的父母从事牧职工作。
My parents worked in ministry.
我父亲曾是现役海军陆战队步兵军官，到我出生时他已经转入预备役。
My dad had been an active duty marine infantry officer, and then he was in the reserves by the time I came along.
我从小接受家庭教育，前七年生活在康威，之后搬到霍普，十岁时我们搬到达拉斯地区，以便我父亲能进入达拉斯神学院学习。
But grew up being homeschooled, lived the first seven years of my life in Conway, then Hope, then we moved to Dallas when I was 10, the Dallas area so that my dad could go to Dallas Theological Seminary.
我哇哦。
I Woah.
你继续说。
Go ahead.
我不是。
I no.
我只是说，哇哦。
I just said, woah.
是的。
Yeah.
所以，你知道，你从小就接触了很多神学内容，尤其是你父亲在达拉斯神学院的时候。
So, you know, you've got a lot you've got a lot going on, a lot of theology already as a young man if your dad's at Dallas Theological Seminary.
对。
Yes.
这对他是很大的一个决定。
And it was that was a big decision for him.
这是一种中年时期的决定。
It's a midlife kind of decision.
对吧？
Right?
你知道，他并不是在二十多岁的时候去的。
You know, he didn't go in his twenties.
我们搬到达拉斯的时候，他快要四十岁了。
He was he was about to turn 40 when we moved to Dallas.
对吧？
Right?
所以那是一次巨大的转变，不仅仅是从阿肯色州搬到达拉斯，当然，还有那个时候重新回到学校学习。
So that was a big transition, not just the Arkansas to Dallas part, but of course, just, you know, going to school at that point again as well.
所以我从小从父母那里学到了很多关于圣经的知识，也看到他们践行自己的信仰。
So I I grew up learning a lot about the Bible from my parents and seeing them work their faith out.
对吧？
Right?
这不仅仅是一个关于‘我们相信什么’的陈述。
It wasn't just a statement of like, hey, this is what we believe.
而是说，这是我们所相信的，所以我们就要付诸行动。
It's like, this is what we believe and so we're gonna do it.
这对我来说是一种极大的荣幸。
And that that was a great privilege for me.
它真正影响了我所做的各种决定。
It really impacted the kinds of decisions that I made.
所以我在达拉斯度过了青少年时期，2005年我19岁时加入了海军陆战队，当然，这并不是我一定会走的路。
So grew up kind of my teen years in Dallas, you know, ended up joining the Marine Corps in 2005 when I was 19 years old, which, you know, wasn't always a given that I was necessarily gonna do that.
但因为我父亲曾是海军陆战队员，所以这一直是一个可能的选择。
But with my dad having been in the Marine Corps, it was one of those things that was always a possibility.
后来我从事了情报工作。
And I ended up working in intelligence.
因此，我是一名密码学西班牙语语言专家。
So I was a cryptological Spanish linguist.
所以我有机会去了那个地方。
So I got to go to the Woah.
哇哦。
Woah.
密码学西班牙语语言学家。
A cryptological Spanish linguist.
我们节目上已经请过这么多位了，真不敢相信我们又请到一位。
We've had so many of those on the show that I I I can't believe we booked another one.
是的。
Yeah.
你能解释一下什么是密码学西班牙语语言学家吗？
Can you explain what is a cryptological Spanish linguist, please?
可以。
Yes.
当然。
Absolutely.
所以，语言学家这部分，也就是西班牙语语言学家，其实很好理解。
So the the the linguist, the Spanish linguist part is pretty self explanatory.
你知道，你学习西班牙语，然后在工作中运用它。
You know, you you learn Spanish and you leverage that in your work.
密码学部分基本上意味着这份工作专注于信号情报。
The cryptology part basically means that it's a job where the focus is in signals intelligence.
所以我离开DLI之后，又在德克萨斯中部的古德费洛空军基地接受了后续培训，最终被派往圣安东尼奥的德克萨斯密码中心，那是国家安全局的一个站点。
So after I left DLI and then we did some, you know, follow on training at Goodfellow Air Force Base in Central Texas, I ended up getting stationed at the Texas Cryptologic Center in San Antonio, which is a NSA site.
对吧？
Right?
所以我在那里从事情报翻译工作，还做了一些情报分析，后来在2008到2009年被部署到伊拉克，当然那时我没有用到西班牙语方面的训练。
So I I was working there doing an intelligence translation, got to do some intelligence analysis, ended up getting deployed to Iraq in 2008 to 2009, where I was not leveraging the Spanish portion of my training, obviously.
但我从事的是地理空间情报分析，也就是根据情报数据，判断坏人在哪里、如何抓捕他们、他们做了什么、人们应该去哪里寻找他们、地面部队该去哪里搜寻，同时制作目标包、撰写报告，所有这些工作。
But I was doing geospatial intelligence analysis where, you know, you you figure out based on the intelligence data, where the bad guys are, how to get them, you know, what they've done, where people should look for them, where, you know, the the the guys on the ground should look for them, building target packages, writing reports, all all that good stuff.
而那段经历真的非常令人兴奋。
And I'm now that was a really that was a really exhilarating experience.
我能够整合许多不同的培训内容，加以运用，并且至少感觉自己在实地产生了影响。
I got to pull together a lot of different training elements, and leverage them and use them well and and at least feel like I was making a difference on the ground.
所以，那真的很有趣。
So, that was that was fun.
所以，我的意思是，是的，你为当前事件带来了许多独特的视角。
So you I mean, so, yeah, you bring a lot of perspective to current events.
对。
Yeah.
因为，你知道，大多数收听这个播客的人，包括我们这些主持人，都没有接触过情报领域，也不了解这类事情。
Because, you know, most people watching this podcast, most people hosting this podcast, we've not been in, the the world of intelligence and understanding that kind of stuff.
我的意思是，我也想跟你聊聊你的公司。
I mean, I also I wanna talk to you about your your company.
是什么促使你创立了Wasson手表公司？
What what led you to found the Wasson watch company?
换句话说，在你的故事里，是的。
What in other words, in in your story Yeah.
这跟它有什么关系？
How does that come in?
我不太明白。
I don't get that.
是的。
Yeah.
所以，我一直很有创业精神。
So I was you know, I've always been very entrepreneurial.
我从高中就开始做园艺生意，当时有大约20个客户。
I've always had this kind of like in high school, I had a lawn business that I ran with like 20 customers.
后来，退伍后我在国防情报局工作。
And and then over the years, you know, after the Marine Corps, I was working in the Defense Intelligence Agency.
我曾经顺便经营过一家枪支生意，但这些都只是副业。
I started a gun business that I ran on the side for a little bit, but these were kinda like side projects.
2018年，我在一家大型金融机构从事反洗钱工作。
And in 2018, I was working at a large financial institution in anti money laundering.
那是一份稳定的工作。
And, it was the kind of thing it was a stable job.
这份工作很安全，但并没有满足我内心的那种疑问：我到底在这里做什么？
It was a secure job, but it was not scratching the itch of like, what what am I what am I doing here?
除了领工资之外，这里的真正意义是什么？
What's the purpose here beyond bringing home a paycheck?
这当然没问题，但并不是我想从事的事情。
Which is is fine, but it wasn't what I wanted to be doing.
于是我开始思考，我能创办什么样的企业，它不仅仅是一个副业，而是能最终成为我的主业，能够为我的家庭提供收入。
And so I started thinking about like, what is a business I could start that would not just be a side project, would be something that could ultimately, you know, be the whole project, you know, it could bring a paycheck to support my family with.
于是我开始更多地了解手表。
And I started learning more about watches.
我一直很喜欢手表，但对自动手表并不了解。
I'd always loved watches, but I didn't know much about automatic watches.
很多人知道‘自动手表’这个词，比如劳力士、欧米茄这些你常听说的高端品牌，它们使用的是所谓的自动机芯，也就是说，手表靠手腕的运动来驱动。
You know, a lot of people out there are familiar with the term automatic watch, but like Rolexes, Omegas, lot of the big brands you've heard of that are that are, you know, known for being very expensive watches use what's called an automatic movement, which means that it's powered by the movement of your wrist.
不需要电池。
There's no battery.
对吧？
Right?
这是一种老技术。
And that's an old technology.
它并不是新技术，但由于电池驱动手表的普及，它已经不如以前那么流行了。
It's not a new one, but it it's it's less popular than it used to be because of of battery powered watches.
我对这个非常着迷。
And I was fascinated with this.
我只是觉得，这真的非常酷。
I was just like, this is really, really cool.
有一天我突然意识到，嘿。
And and it just hit me one day like, hey.
我对某种特定的手表产品有一个构想，市场上还没有这样的产品，但我很想看到它被生产出来。
This is something I have a vision for a very specific watch product that I would like to see produced that I don't see on the market.
我对于一家优秀的手表公司应该是什么样子，有一个非常具体的想法。
And I had a very specific idea of like what what a good watch company could look like.
我直接决定，我要去做这件事。
And I just decided I'm gonna I'm gonna do it.
我要把它做出来。
I'm gonna make it.
我要把它启动起来。
I'm gonna start it.
我并没有制表方面的背景。
And I'm not I don't have a a background in watchmaking.
我更擅长的是创业精神、批判性思维和综合思维，能把不同的组成部分整合在一起。
It's it's more the entrepreneurial and the critical thinking and the synthetic thinking kind of drawing the different components together.
因此，我与瑞士以及世界各地的不同制造商合作，让他们按照我的想法制造出我心目中的产品。
And so I worked with different manufacturers in Switzerland and all over the world to have them build what I wanted, you know, build the product that I had in mind.
从2018年到2021年，我一直在进行产品开发。
And so from 2018 to 2021 was all product development.
这三年里，我们只做了一款产品，一款手表，从概念到最终交付的成品，最后完成了原型。
It was three years of one product, one watch going from concept to finished delivered product, you know, finished prototype at the end.
这真是太非凡了。
That that is extraordinary.
是Wasson，W-A-S-S-O-N，一家手表公司。
It's Wasson, w a s s o n, watch company.
Wasson，W-A-S-S-O-N。
Wasson, w a s s o n.
我想和你聊聊当前的时事，因为现在有很多消息在流传，我知道你对此有自己的看法。
I wanna talk to you about current events because there is stuff flying around right now, and I know you have a perspective on it.
乔·肯特是谁？
Who who is Joe Kent?
是的。
Yeah.
他为什么上了塔克·卡尔森的节目？
Why was he on Tucker Carlson?
我的意思是，现在外面确实有一些黑暗的势力，正在破坏我们选举出来领导国家、理应信任的总统。
I mean, is some dark stuff out there right now, undermining of the president that we elected to lead the nation, and to trust presumably.
你觉得你能对此提供一些见解吗？是的。
What what do you suppose can you shed any light Yeah.
关于这一点？
On on that?
当像塔克·卡尔森这样的人物利用他们巨大的影响力，有效地破坏美国总统的权威时，这让我感到非常失望，而民主党人整天都在这么做。
Because it's just it's it's disappointing to me when figures, like Tucker Carlson use their huge influence effectively to undermine the president of The United States, which the Democrats are doing all day long.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Right.
就是这样。
That's right.
我们正面临来自双方的敌人，这么说吧。
We're facing kinda enemies from both sides, if you will.
乔·肯特是国家反恐中心（NCTC）的负责人。
And Joe Kent is the direct or was the director of the National Counterterrorism Center known as NCTC.
明白吗？
Alright?
我以前在国防情报局工作时，确实和NCTC合作过。
And I've I've actually worked with NCTC when I was at the DIA.
它是我们将政府各部门不同部分整合起来、共同应对恐怖主义的重要环节。
It's an important element of of our kinda, you know, weaving of all the different pieces of the government together to protect against terrorism.
乔·肯特有军事背景。
And Joe Kent has a background in the military.
他曾服役于特种部队。
He was in special operations.
他总共部署了11次。
He deployed 11 times.
所以，当你从纸面上看他的背景时，他看起来像是个绝佳人选，对吧？
So so when when you look at his background on paper, he he seems to have the this like, oh, like, hey, he's the guy that this this sounds like a great guy.
但我们发现，越来越多的人，尤其是通过他的辞职信发现，许多美国人——特别是保守的基督教爱国者所珍视的价值观，似乎并不是乔·肯特所认同的。
But what we've discovered, you know, what many more people are discovering, especially with his resignation letter, is that what what many Americans value, especially conservative Christian patriotic Americans value, don't seem to be what Joe Kent values.
乔·肯特不仅在特朗普政府正全力应对伊朗关键事务时辞职，还以一种极其负面的方式转移了公众对这件事的注意力，更荒谬的是，他还对以色列提出了种种疯狂指控。
Joe Kent not only resigned when the Trump administration is in the middle of doing what needs to be done with Iran in a way that well, they drew a lot of attention away from that in a negative way, but he he made all of these crazy accusations about Israel.
好像以色列在背后操控我们做这些事似的。
It's like, oh, Israel's behind us doing this.
他还提到，乔·肯特失去了他的妻子。
He even said, you know, Joe Joe Kent had lost his wife.
他的前妻也曾服役于军队，并在叙利亚执行任务。
She his previous wife, she also served in the military and she was in Syria.
她被ISIS杀害了。
She was killed by ISIS.
他在辞职信中把这件事的责任归咎于以色列。
He blamed that on Israel in his resignation letter.
他妻子的谋杀案。
The murder The murder of his wife.
他妻子被ISIS杀害，他却归咎于犹太人。
ISIS murder of his wife, he blamed on the Jews.
没错。
That's right.
这个观点很有趣。
Very interesting take.
我之前还真不知道，这太荒谬了。
I I hadn't It's it's absurd.
但我想，要理解乔在这里所做事情的核心，就得想想他的头衔——国家反恐中心主任。
But, I mean, I think to get to the fundamental piece of what Joe has done here is you think about his title, the director of the National Counterterrorism Center.
伊朗是全球头号国家支持的恐怖主义赞助者，几十年来一直如此，通过恐怖主义导致了数千名美国人死亡，更不用说伊拉克、阿富汗和以色列人了，你知道，他们至少部分参与了10月7日的袭击。
And Iran is the number one state sponsor of terrorism globally, has been for decades, is responsible through terrorism for the death of up to thousands of Americans, not to mention people in Iraq, people in Afghanistan, Israelis, you know, they were part of they were behind the October seventh attacks, at least in part.
而你却看到国家反恐中心主任辞职，仅仅因为美国对头号恐怖主义赞助者伊朗的恶行采取了问责措施。
And you have the director of the National Counterterrorism Center resigning because The United States holds the number one state sponsor of terrorism accountable for its evil deeds.
我的意思是，如果这还不算明显失职，那我不知道什么才算。
I mean, if that doesn't just scream not doing your job the right way, I don't know what does.
所以我认为，在乔·肯特辞职之前，很多人并没有仔细了解过他。
So I think a lot of people were I'd not looked into Joe Kent very carefully prior to that resignation.
很多人现在已经认清了他真正的面目。
A lot of people have woken up to who he really is.
我认为，对于我们这些右翼人士来说，这是一个重要的转折点，也许我们之前曾觉得，我们都在同一阵营。
And I think it it's an important turning point for those of us on the right who maybe previously felt like, you know, we're all on the same team.
我们都在朝着同一个方向前进。
We're all going the same direction.
现在是时候认识到，有一群人，至少自称属于右翼，但他们绝对不是，他们对美国的未来没有相同的愿景，没有相同的价值观，而且正在积极破坏我们在这里努力实现的目标。
It's time to recognize that there is a group of folks who who at least say they're on the right, who absolutely are not, who don't have the same vision for the future of America, who don't have the same values, and who are actively working to undermine what it is we're trying to accomplish here.
话说回来。
Which look.
我们都应该对这件事感到震惊。
We we should all be shocked by this.
我的意思是，当塔克·卡尔森谈论多极化，说我们需要与中国共享全球舞台时，我想问：你是不是疯了？
I mean, when Tucker Carlson talks about multipolarity and we need to share the global stage with China, I think, are you out of your bleeping mind?
这就像和希特勒同台演出。
That's like sharing the stage with Hitler.
是的。
Yes.
中国方面，我刚刚采访了扬·耶库莱克，谈了他的书《按订单杀害》，书中揭露了中国那些马克思主义无神论者如何杀害年轻人以获取器官牟利。
China I just interviewed Jan Yekulek about his book, Killed to Order, about how China the Marxist atheists in China murder young people for their organs to make money.
对。
Yeah.
你知道，这比全球奴隶贸易更恶劣，甚至与之相当。
You know, that's worse than the global slave trade, or it's equal to it.
这比纳粹用焚化炉焚烧犹太人还要恶劣。
It's worse than the Nazis incinerating Jews in ovens.
如果你不相信我们依然按上帝的形象被创造，你才会这么做。
That's what you do if you don't believe we remain in the image of God.
阿门。
Amen.
塔克·卡尔森说，嗯，我们应该与中国共享全球舞台。
And Tucker Carlson is saying, well, you know, we should share the stage China.
我心里想，不，我们应该动用一切力量，尽可能地影响中国，对抗这种邪恶的撒旦行径。
And I think to myself, no, we should use all the power we have to influence China against this satanic evil, if possible.
所以你看，塔克·卡尔森，我们常说，哦，他是右翼人物。
So here you have Tucker Carlson, and we say, oh, he's a figure on the right.
他早已不是右翼人物了。
He's no longer a figure on the right.
这些标签已经失去了意义。
These terms become meaningless.
像乔·肯特这样的人，还有许多类似的人，比如保罗，我认为他们多年来一直在装睡。
And so a guy like Joe Kent, I mean, are a lot of folks like this, Paul, that I think they're playing possum over the years, through the decades.
他们假装在体制内随波逐流，获取某些头衔，以此让我们误以为他们和我们是一路人。
They're sort of pretending, they're moving along in the system and getting certain credentials, which would lull us into thinking they're on the same team that we are.
但他们所不信仰的，恰恰是一些根本性的东西。
But they're fundamental things that they don't believe in.
我的意思是，我一再看到这种情况，我原本以为那些人和我们的立场基本一致。
I mean, I've seen this over and over, people I thought, well, they're pretty much on the same page as we are.
无论是出于无知、恶意，还是两者兼有，无论是迈克·彭斯还是其他人，他们都声称自己支持保守主义。
And whether through ignorance or malevolence or a combination, whether it's Mike Pence or others that, well, I stand for conservatism.
我真的觉得，现在要让人们理解并认清这些人实际上是在背叛我们所选举的特朗普总统，是非常困难的。
Well, I really think that it's very challenging for people to try to process this right now and to see these people as effectively turning against the man that we elected, Donald Trump.
我的意思是，我们至少应该达成共识：我们选了他，我们应该信任他。
I mean, we should be able to agree that we elected him and that we can trust him.
我们当然可以批评他。
We'll we'll we'll criticize him.
但当你疯狂地像塔克和乔·肯特那样说，把责任归咎于犹太人，你知道，这真的非常黑暗，精神上极其黑暗。
But when you go crazy and say things like Tucker has said and Joe Kent has said, basically blaming the Jews for, you know, you just think this is really dark, spiritually very, very dark.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
当然。
Absolutely.
我认为我们需要对此敲响警钟，因为事态已经发展得非常严重了。
And I think we need a wake up call about it because it has progressed very far.
我认为，一些刚刚接触到塔克、乔·肯特或卡南斯·欧文斯等人那些离谱言论的人，可能会误以为这只是刚刚开始的一件小事。
I think some people who maybe are just now being exposed to some of the off the wall statements by Tucker or Joe Kent or Candace Owens or whoever it may be, may be under the impression that this is some small thing that's just beginning.
这其实是多年来一直持续的、有组织地操纵美国政治——尤其是右翼政治的一部分。
This is part of a concerted effort to manipulate US politics, especially on the right that has been going on for years at this point.
而且这种影响已经渗透到许多高层意见领袖之中。
And it has made its way into many of the high level influencers.
你当然知道，像塔克·卡尔森、卡南斯·欧文斯这些明显的人物。
And you have you know, so the obvious folks are like Tucker Carlson, Candace Owens.
当然，我们之前已经谈过乔·肯特了。
You know, obviously, we we've talked about Joe Kent.
但就连乔·罗根这样的人最近也受到了影响，他本身并不是右翼的典范，但他是个非常知名的人物，现在却在谈论关于以色列和埃里卡·柯克的阴谋论，你知道的，关于她
But then you even have elements of this that are drifting into to guys like Joe Rogan the other day, who's not some paragon of the right per se, but he is a very notable individual who's now talking about conspiracy theories about Israel and about Erica Kirk, you know, being
他嘲讽埃里卡·柯克的行为简直令人发指。
His mocking his mocking of Erica Kirk was so despicable.
我真的很震惊。
I was really shocked.
是的。
Yeah.
我真的非常震惊。
Was Me really, really shocked.
我也是。
Me too.
我不知道怎么
I don't know how
他怎么能面对镜子，还请一个嘉宾说，‘这可是我一位朋友的遗孀，她被谋杀了。’
he could look himself in the mirror and and and have a guest on saying, but that's like, this is the widow of a friend of mine who was murdered.
我们该怎么看待这件事呢？
What do we even what do we make of this?
外面正在发生一些非常奇怪的事情。
So something really bizarre is is happening out there.
当你提到这是一场长期影响右翼政治的行动时，到底是谁在背后推动这种努力？
Now when you said this has been a long term effort to influence politics on the right, who ultimately are we talking about as being behind that kind of an effort?
是的。
Yeah.
最终，中国和俄罗斯是这种努力最大的受益者。
Ultimately, China and Russia are the the two parties that stand to gain the most from this kind of this kind of effort.
保罗，重点是我们会假设中国，尤其是
Paul, the point is we would assume that China, particularly
对。
Yes.
中国和俄罗斯，但问题是，他们真能影响塔克·卡尔森吗？他需要钱吗？
China and Russia, they but the idea that they could get to Tucker Carlson, does he need the money?
他有灵魂吗？
Does he have a soul?
我真以为他是个想弄清楚事情的正派人。
I really thought that he was a decent guy trying to figure stuff out.
你是想说，你到底想表达什么？
Are you suggesting I mean, what are you suggesting?
因为我实在难以理解。
Because I am so baffled to try to understand.
让我这么说吧。
Let me put it this way.
坎迪斯·欧文斯和塔克·卡尔森都说过一些话，对我来说，这些话都疯了。
Candace Owens has said things, and Tucker have, they both said things that are insane to me.
我足够了解，知道他们在这方面是错的。
I know enough to know they're wrong about that.
我是知道的。
Like, I know that.
我认为，如果他们能说出这样的话，我就无法再听他们讲任何事情了，因为他们说了些疯狂的话，我可以肯定地说，他们要么是无知，要么完全错了。
And I think if they're capable of saying that, I cannot listen to them on anything because they have said lunatic things that I can say for sure I know they are either ignorant or completely wrong.
对。
Right.
但你对像塔克这样的人有什么猜测呢？
But what is your guess with somebody like Tucker?
他从来就没有过任何价值观或信念，只是随波逐流，是吗？
Did he never have any values or beliefs and he's just kind of going the flow or Yeah.
因为对我来说，他这一点最让人困惑。
What because that's to me what's so puzzling about him.
这一点争议很大。
That's that's heavily debated.
我的个人看法是，我从来就不觉得塔克是真诚的。
And you know, my my personal thought, I I never felt like Tucker was genuine.
对吧？
Right?
那只是直觉而已。
And that was just a gut sense.
所以我不会把所有赌注都押在这一点上，因为我不确定。
So I'm not gonna I'm not gonna put all my my chips on that being the case because I don't know.
你知道，这只是推测。
You know, that's speculative.
我不了解他的内心，也不清楚他那时的真实想法。
I don't know his heart or where his heart was at that time.
但耶稣确实说过，你们会凭他们的果实认出他们。
But Jesus did say, you will know them by their fruits.
所以，无论我当时有什么直觉，现在我们都能看到，这种腐烂已经非常深重。
So whatever my gut suspicion was at that time, we can see now that there's a deep, deep rot.
至于这种腐烂是多年来一直潜伏在表面之下，还是最近才突然爆发的，
And whether that was, you know, something that was just under the surface for for many years or something that just really popped up here recently.
我无法确定。
I I can't say for sure.
但人们会猜测，你知道，会不会有贿赂，或者他外面有没有什么把柄？
But people speculate about, you know, could there could there be bribery or could there be compromising information about him out there?
我不知道他最近一年言行发生如此巨大转变的确切动机。
I don't know that the exact motivation for this seemingly massive shift and the kinds of things that he's been saying in the last year.
甚至不只是唱歌，我们都看到了这个巨大的转变。
Not not even singing, you know, we we all see this massive shift.
但我知道这一点：你可能以为你了解某人，但问题是，你真的了解吗？
But I know this and it's that you you might think that you know someone, but the question is, do you?
我，你知道的，我在华盛顿特区住了好几年，认识一对夫妇。
I I've, you know, I knew a couple for for years living in the the DC area.
我们和这对夫妇相处得非常熟。
We got to know this couple really well.
他们已经结婚几十年了。
They've been married for for a couple decades.
然后有一天，丈夫突然告诉妻子，他要离开她。
And then one day, the the husband just tells the wife that he's leaving her.
他不想谈论这件事。
And he doesn't wanna talk about it.
他不想跟我们谈这件事。
He doesn't wanna talk to to us about it.
我试着联系他。
I try to reach out.
他不愿意跟我们交谈。
He he won't have a conversation with us.
这些年来，我的生活中发生过好几次类似的事情，曾经我信任的人，没错。
And and I I've had a number of things like that happen in my life over the years where someone I previously trusted Right.
我以为他们是很好的人，甚至会向他们寻求建议，结果却发现他们并非如此。
And believed was a great person, like someone I would really you know, I even get advice from turns out not to be that person.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
这是个大事，我经常遇到这种情况，因为我本质上是个过于信任别人的人，有时对朋友忠诚得过了头。我曾经确信某些人是好人，但显然我判断错了。
That's a big thing, and that's happened to me a lot because I'm basically an over trusting person and a hugely loyal friend to a fault, I think, at some times, and I have seen that there were people that I was sure that they were good people, whatever, and I clearly got it wrong.
耶稣说：‘你们凭着他们的果子就可以认出他们来。’他为什么要这么说呢？
And Jesus says, Why does he say, By your fruits, you'll Why does he bother to say that?
因为确实有一些人非常需要听到这句话。
Because some of us really need to hear it.
阿门。
Amen.
我也可以这么说，婚姻方面，我认识的一些人，妻子突然就离开了。
And I can say the same thing, marriages, people that I know, suddenly the wife just walks away from it.
你会想：等等，怎么回事？
You're like, wait a minute.
你明明在做牧养工作，和女性一起做圣经学习，向人们传讲耶稣，然后突然你就决定：哦，我要离开我优秀的丈夫。
You're in ministry, you're doing Bible studies with women and you're telling people about Jesus, and then suddenly you decide, oh, I'm gonna leave my wonderful husband.
这并没有圣经依据。
There's no biblical grounds.
我只是想说，这只是一个例子，但类似的情况在男性对妻子身上也屡见不鲜，这可能是最清晰、最直观的例证——当你看到这样的事，你会觉得这完全说不通。
I'm just gonna, and I mean, that's one example, but there's so many examples of men doing the same thing to their wives, and that's kind of the clearest way, focus in a sense, way to focus, that you look at something like that and you go, that makes absolutely no sense.
显然，这个人一直在活在谎言中，或许某种程度上他也在欺骗自己。当你把这个模式扩展到像塔克这样的人，或者像乔·肯特这样长期低调行事的人，他们可能只是在迎合环境、说些该说的话来推进自己的事业，然后突然间，是的。
So clearly the person was living a lie, whether they were lying to themselves probably to some extent, And when you extrapolate this outward to somebody like Tucker or to lots of other people like Joe Kent, that they've been kind of under the radar, maybe saying what they need to say to move along to move along, and then suddenly Yeah.
他们会做某件事或说某句话，完全与他们之前说过的一切不一致。
There's a, you know, they do something or say something that it doesn't fit with anything they've said before.
有很多类似深层政府的人员，他们一直在利用体制，但当危机来临时，你绝不能依赖这样的人。
There are many deep state actors like that, who, you know, they're kind of working the system, but when when it's a crisis point, you don't wanna be depending on that person.
我们现在正看到大量这样的情况。
And we're seeing a lot of that right now.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为，关于人们如何改变——即使是那些你根本想不到会改变的人——的启示是，即使我们无法理解这种改变背后的机制，但只要见过一次，你就该提高警惕。
Well, I think the takeaway with that particular thing about how how people can change, even people you really don't expect to, is even if we don't understand the mechanism of that change in those individuals, like once you see it happen once, you you should be on alert.
我们从很多人那里获得了这些信息。
And there we we get information from a lot of people.
我们现在正处于一个去中心化的沟通世界中。
We're we're in sort of a decentralized communication world now.
对吧？
Right?
旧媒体正在崩塌，而新媒体正在兴起。
It it the old media is crumbling away and there's this new media.
因此，我们每个人都关注和聆听一些人。
So we have all we all have these people that we follow and listen to.
你需要迅速识别出那些说出疯狂且邪恶言论的人。
You need to be quick to recognize when people are saying stuff that's insane and evil.
而且，嘿，也许你不该因为一次‘是的’就完全评判他们的整个人品。
And, hey, maybe you don't need to fully judge their entire character by one Yeah.
失误。
Misstep.
但一旦他们开始发表反犹太主义言论，把所有问题都归咎于犹太人和以色列，那时你就不能再给他们任何疑点上的宽容，别再问‘他们为什么这么说’了。
But but once they start saying stuff, anti Semitic stuff, blaming Jews and Israel for everything, at that point, you need to stop giving them the benefit of the doubt of like, oh, why are they saying these things?
他们已经迷失了，这一点是公认的。
They're recognized recognized they're lost.
他们不配再占用我的时间和我的兴趣。
They deserve no more market share of my time and my my interest.
这真是一个很好的表达方式。
That's a that's a good way of putting it.
我仍然有一些朋友，你知道的，他们在听塔克或坎迪斯的节目。
And I still have friends that, you know, are listening to Tucker or listening to Candice.
不过，各位，我现在强烈建议你们不要这样做。
I just at this point, ladies and gentlemen, I would counsel you strongly to to not do that.
是的。
Yes.
保罗·布朗，很高兴能稍微了解你一下。
Well, Paul Brown, just great to to get to know you a little bit.
我们会再邀请你来的。
We'll we'll have you back.
祝贺你，沃森手表公司。
Congratulations on Wasson Watch Company.
我很快想跟你多聊聊这个。
I'm fast I wanna talk to you more about that.
是的。
Yeah.
对你所做的事情非常感兴趣。
Fascinated by what you did.
但谢谢您今天前来。
But thanks for coming on today.
上帝保佑你。
God bless you.
谢谢你邀请我，埃里克。
Thanks for having me, Eric.
很高兴
Good to
再见。
see you.
你也蒙主恩典。
God bless you too.
大家好。
Hey there, folks.
我想跟你们聊聊一家我真心钦佩的咖啡公司。
I wanna tell you about a coffee company I genuinely admire.
十堡咖啡，灵感源自十堡家族的信仰与勇气。
Ten Boom Coffee, inspired by the faith and courage of the Ten Boom family.
这不仅仅是好咖啡。
This isn't just great coffee.
这是一种有使命的咖啡，采用道德采购、专业烘焙，并根植于基督教价值观。
It's coffee with a mission, ethically sourced, expertly roasted, and rooted in Christian values.
如果你关心自己消费的产品以及它支持了谁，这款咖啡会让你喝得心安理得。
If you care about what you consume and who it supports, this is coffee you can feel good about.
前往 10boomcoffee.com。
Go to 10boomcoffee.com.
使用促销码 Eric，享受订单 15% 折扣。
Use promo code Eric for 15% off your order.
就是 10boomcoffee.com，代码 Eric。
That's 10boomcoffee.com, code Eric.
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