第87期 - 詹姆斯·塔拉里科

女士们、先生们，正如《兔八哥》中某个人物曾说过的那样，今天我非常高兴在这个节目中与我们的朋友巴沙姆交谈，他就在这里。

Ladies and gentle to people, as somebody on Bugs Bunny once said, I now have the joy on this program today of speaking with our friend, Basham, who's right here.

你好，梅根。

Hello, Megan.

嗨。

Hey.

很高兴

Good to

能来这里。

be here.

能来这里总是很好。

Always good to be here.

和你聊天总是很愉快。

It's always good to talk to you.

这让我感到鼓舞。

It's encouraging to me.

今天，我们可以聊任何话题，但也许我们应该谈谈詹姆斯·塔拉里科那种特别疯狂的行为——这已经是我说得最委婉的说法了。

Today, we can talk about anything, but maybe we should deal with the particular lunacy, and that's putting it as positively as I can, of James Talarico.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以，对于那些还不知道他是谁的听众，你能告诉我，这个假扮基督徒的詹姆斯·塔拉里科到底是谁吗？

So folks who are listening who don't even know who that is, can you tell my audience who this fake Christian James Talarico is?

是的。

Yeah.

正如我在《每日电讯》上大量报道政治的文化层面时所注意到的，随着我们进入新的中期选举，2024年最大的恐慌就是基督教民族主义。

So, you know, as I've been covering a lot of the cultural aspects of politics over at the Daily Wire, one of the things I've noticed as we're shifting to the new, you know, midterms election is that in 2024, Christian nationalism was the big scare.

对吧？

Right?

我的意思是，每个人都害怕基督徒活出他们的信仰，害怕他们真的觉得自己有责任成为世上的盐和光，践行这条诫命。

I mean, everyone's terrified of Christians living out their faith and actually feeling like they have to be salt and light in the world and live out that commandment.

所以，众所周知，左派一直在猛烈攻击那些这样做的基督徒，因为显而易见的原因，他们不希望看到盐和光的存在。

So, you know, the left had been strongly attacking Christians doing that because for obvious reasons, they don't want the salt and the light.

在过去一年左右，我关于塔拉里科所看到的，似乎发生了一点转变。

And so what I have seen probably over the last year around Talarico is a is a little bit of a shift.

他们仍然在攻击基督教民族主义，而作为民主党德克萨斯州参议员候选人，他尤其频繁地提及这一点。

They're still hitting Christian nationalism, and he, in particular, as the Texas senate candidate for the Democratic party is hitting that a lot.

但他们现在也开始声称：其实我们才是真正的基督徒。

But they're also now trying to say that, actually, we're the real Christians, though.

因此，他们不再对基督教采取敌对立场，而是试图说：你们被灌输了一种虚假的基督教，而我们才是真正的基督教。

So instead of taking a hostile stance to Christianity, they're trying to say, you have been sold a fake Christianity, and we're the real Christianity.

根据左派和詹姆斯·塔拉里科的说法，真正的基督教包含这样的观念：上帝是非二元的，玛利亚曾对主表示过同意。

And what the real Christianity contains according to the left and James Talarico is ideas like God is nonbinary, that Mary offered consent to the Lord.

如果她没有这样做，上帝也会接受她堕胎杀死我们的救世主。

And if she hadn't done that, God would have been okay with her aborting our savior.

所以他支持堕胎。

So he's pro abortion.

他支持跨性别。

He's pro trans.

实际上，我们现在得一个一个来，因为关于这个，我还没在X或其他地方评论过，但让我们先从头开始。

Actually, now let's we gotta take one at a time here because this is so I have not I don't think I've commented on this, on X or anything, but let let's let's just start.

好的。

Okay.

首先，你提到左翼真的想借用基督教的名义。

First of all, what you said about the left really wanting to co opt Christianity.

公开说：我们崇拜撒旦，憎恨你们的救主。

Openly say, we worship Satan, and we hate your savior.

不。

No.

他们假装自己更基督教。

They pretend to be more Christian.

希拉里·克林顿就做过这种事。

So Hillary Clinton did this.

各位，我们不是在开玩笑。

Ladies and gentlemen, we're not joking.

希拉里·克林顿就是这样做的，她几个月前在《大西洋》杂志上攻击了阿里·贝丝·斯图基。

Hillary Clinton did this, in attacking Ali Beth Stuckey in the Atlantic, I don't know, a month or so ago, whatever it was.

这简直疯狂，但还是有足够愚蠢的人——他们多半看CNN或MSNBC——相信这种说法，明白吗？

It's that crazy, and there are people dumb enough, most of them probably watch CNN or MS now, who believe this, okay?

在这种对基督教信仰的颠倒中，他们什么话都说得出来。

And so in this inversion of Christian faith, they'll say anything.

好的。

Okay.

所以塔利科参加了一个播客节目，这一点需要仔细说明，因为这里有个邪恶的陷阱，各位，你们试图混淆人们。

So Talarico was on some podcast, and this needs to be set up carefully because there's something diabolical, ladies and gentlemen, right, where you're going to try to confuse people.

你到底想表达什么，其实并不清楚。

It's not really clear what you're saying.

所以他当时说了什么，梅根，你来描述一下。

So what he said, and Megan, I'll let you describe it.

如果我打断了，请原谅，但这太关键了，因为他这样说的意图就是让很多人感到困惑。

Forgive me if I interrupt, but this is so it's so key how he put it because a lot of people were confused by it, and that was his intention.

对。

Right.

所以他这么说：如果你仔细看圣经，耶稣并没有提到堕胎，但我们有天使向玛丽亚显现并告诉她，你将怀上孩子的故事。

So the way he has put it is that, okay, if you actually look at the scriptures, Jesus doesn't say anything about abortion, but we have the the story of the angel coming to the lord and telling Mary, you will become with child.

塔拉里科对这个故事的扭曲解读是，说上帝在征求玛丽亚的同意。

And and Talarico's really twisted way of framing that story is to say that god was asking for Mary's consent.

如果玛丽亚说‘不，不要成就在我身上’，那她就可以选择堕胎。

And that if Mary had said no, and don't let it be done to me, then she could have had the option then to, have an abortion.

但实际上，我的理解不是这样的。

Now actually, see, that's not how I read it.

在我看来，这正是这种说法邪恶的地方。

This is to me where I find the diabolical character of this.

对吧？

Right?

我们都知道，天使和上帝不会强迫玛丽亚，所以天使出现时，基本上是在问：你愿意做这件事吗？

We all know that the angel that God is not going to force Mary, so an angel appears and says basically, you know, are you willing to do this?

当然，作为玛利亚的她回答说，好的。

And of course, Mary being Mary says, Yes.

所以这讲的是受孕。

So that is about conception.

而不是说，哦，你子宫里有个孩子。

It's not about, Oh, there's a baby in your womb.

你是否想杀了它？

Do you want to murder it or not?

我们其实并没有明确的意见。

We don't really have an opinion.

你觉得呢，玛利亚？

What do you think, Mary?

我们讨论的不是子宫里的婴儿。

We're not talking about a baby in the womb.

子宫里根本还没有婴儿。

There's no baby in the womb.

子宫里什么都没有。

There is nothing in the womb.

有一些尚未受精的卵子，因此上帝通过天使问玛丽：你愿意受孕吗？

There's some eggs that have not been fertilized, and so God through the angel is asking Mary, would you be willing to conceive?

这就是问题所在。

And that is the question.

所以塔拉里科扭曲了这一点，仿佛上帝在问：你希望这个婴儿活还是死？

So Talarico twists it and acts somehow like God is asking, do you want this baby to live or die?

还没有婴儿。

There is no baby.

这发生在婴儿出现之前。

This is before there's a baby.

这就引出了我们如何受孕的问题，而受孕涉及一种情况：你可以说，是的，我愿意参与这个行为，或者不，我不愿意，但他并没有深入这一点。

So this kind of brings up the issue of how we get pregnant, and how we get pregnant involves something where you can say, yes, I want to engage in that act, or no, I don't, but he doesn't go there.

他只是模糊处理，让人误以为已经有一个婴儿，天使在问玛丽：你打算杀死这个婴儿吗？

He just kind of smears it over to confuse people as though there's a baby and the angel is asking Mary, okay, do you do you wanna kill the baby?

你怎么看？

What do you think?

我的理解基本上就是这样。

I mean, that's basically how I read it.

也许你

Maybe you

没错。

have Right.

是的。

Yes.

但话说回来，认为宇宙的主宰竟然紧张不安地想着‘她会怎么说呢’，这简直荒谬至极。

But I mean, there's also just the the lunacy of thinking that the god of the universe was like on tenterhooks going, I wonder what she's gonna say.

她会答应吗？

Is she gonna say yes?

我的意思是，算了吧。

I mean, come on.

对。

Right.

所以，我的意思是，这里有一种不尊重的成分。

So, I mean, there's a level of disrespect there.

但当你审视詹姆斯·塔拉里科的神学时，问题不仅仅是他持有令人憎恶的政治观点。

But I as you look at James Talarico's theology, it's not just that he has abhorrent political views.

他实际上在竞选活动中，假装自己在向大众传授神学和教义，其中包括诸如‘通往天堂的路不止一条’、‘存在各种真理传统’之类的说法。

He's he's literally out on the campaign trail, pretending that he is teaching theology, teaching doctrine to the masses, and it includes things like, you know, there are many ways to heaven that there are all of these, you know, truth traditions.

他在埃兹拉·克莱因的节目中表示，他尊重所有爱的宗教，因为它们都通向同一个地方。

He said on the Ezra Klein show that, he respects all religions of love because they're all leading to the same place.

因为埃兹拉·克莱因问他：你是否相信耶稣是通往天堂的唯一道路？

Because Ezra Klein asked him, do you believe that Jesus is the only way to heaven?

塔拉里科的回答是：嗯，我相信所有爱的宗教都会引领我们走向同一个地方。

And Talarico's answer was, well, I believe all religions of love lead us to that same

真理。

truth.

爱的宗教。

Religions of love.

这简直就是个新造词，各位女士们先生们。

There's that's a called a neologism, ladies and gentlemen.

有谁听说过‘爱的宗教’这种说法吗？

Well, has anybody ever heard religions of love?

我觉得这可能是某个索罗斯智库的人想出来的。

I think he who maybe somebody in a in a Soros think tank came up with that.

这到底是什么意思？

Like, what does that mean?

爱的宗教。

Religions of love.

对。

Right.

而且这非常可能，因为他确实从那个方向获得了大量资金。

And and that would be very likely because he does get a lot of funding from that direction.

但让我感到有趣的是，我们经常讨论这一点，我即将提到一些常见的角色——那些至今仍自称是保守派基督徒的人，比如《基督教今日》、《圣邮报》以及《纽约时报》的戴维·弗伦奇，他们却在大力扶持和吹捧他的竞选。

But, what has been interesting to me, and we talk about this a lot, and I'm about to bring up some of the usual suspects, but the way his candidacy is being propped up and hailed by those who today, to this day, claim to be conservative Christians at Christianity Today, The Holy Post, and David French at The New York Times.

所以我一直在观察的是，即使这不是正式协调的，至少他们频繁沟通，确保在向他们的基督教受众推销塔拉里科的竞选时保持口径一致，而这些受众中，不幸的是，仍有许多真诚的基督徒，他们根本没意识到自己正被灌输虚假的信息。

So what I have been watching is what seems like, if it's not formally coordinated, they at least talk a lot so that they're all on the same page in how they are trying to sell the Talarico candidacy candidacy to their Christian audiences who, frankly, unfortunately, a lot of them do still include real trusting Christians who don't understand the bill of goods that they're being sold.

所以，我看着这一切发展，心想：我不确定这是否是协调一致的，但毫无疑问，他们都在使用相同的论点。

So, you know, I kinda watched this unfold, I went, I don't know if it's coordinated, but certainly they're all on the same talking points.

如果你回溯到一月，《基督教今日》发布了一期播客，讨论这位彻头彻尾的异端者的竞选。

So if you go back to January, Christianity Today put out a podcast episode talking about the candidacy of this rank heretic.

当然，他们并没有称他为彻头彻尾的异端者。

Of course, they didn't call him a rank heretic.

相反，我们从《基督教今日》的迈克·科斯珀、拉塞尔·摩尔和邦妮·克里斯蒂安那里听到的是，詹姆斯·塔拉里科展现了一种令人耳目一新的基督教面貌，这种面貌比他们从MAGA阵营看到的更像真正的基督教。

Instead instead, what we heard from Mike Cosper, Russell Moore, and Bonnie Christian at Christianity Today was that, James Talarico is presenting a refreshing face of Christianity that, is much more recognizably Christian than what they have seen from MAGA.

在那期播客中，他们从未提及塔拉里科持有异端观点。

So this was and at no point in that podcast did they mention that Talarico has heretical views.

他不相信耶稣是通往天堂的唯一道路。

He doesn't believe that Jesus is the only way to heaven.

他们没有提到他对跨性别问题的立场，即他认为上帝是非二元的。

They didn't mention his stance on the trans issue that he believes God is nonbinary.

首先，根本不是那样。

They didn't First of all, that.

是的。

Yeah.

这简直荒谬可笑。

Like, that's hilariously stupid.

太蠢了。

That's so stupid.

我的意思是，我最想多谈谈这一点。

I mean, I wanna talk about that more than anything.

说这种话真是太蠢了，大多数普通美国人听了都会笑的。

What a dopey dopey thing to say that most average Americans would just laugh at that.

这到底是什么意思？

What does that even mean?

当耶稣在世时，我相信他本质上是一个男人，而不是其他什么，当他提到天上的父时，这不仅仅是一种修辞手法。

When Jesus was on earth, I believe he was pretty much a man and not whatever, and when he referred to his father in heaven, that wasn't a figure of speech only.

我的意思是，他本可以说任何话，但他却说了‘阿爸，父’。

I mean, he could have said anything, but he said, Abba, Father.

我的意思是，我们当然可以就这个问题展开各种讨论，但有人竟敢断言上帝是非二元的，我甚至觉得上帝根本不会承认‘非二元’这个概念。

I mean, again, we can have all kinds of conversations about this, but for somebody to just boldly state that God is nonbinary, I don't even think God acknowledges the concept of nonbinary.

非二元根本就是个荒唐的造词，但它现在却广为流传，而他似乎觉得有自由随意抛出这种说法。

Like, nonbinary is a made up lunatic term, but it's out there enough, and and he feels somehow the freedom to throw this out there.

我想那到底是什么呢？

I guess what is that?

是一种政治算计吧，我猜？

A political calculation, I assume?

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我认为这是试图把左翼的邪恶意识形态包装成某种形式的基督教，这就是我的看法。

I mean, I think it's a way of trying to baptize evil ideology on the left as some sort of form of Christianity is what I think it is.

我认为这是一种说法，嘿。

I think it's a way of saying, hey.

我们也可以是基督徒。

We can be Christians too.

即使我们要拒绝上帝关于男女的全部教导，他创造了他们。

Even if we're going to reject everything that God says about male and female, he made them.

我在母腹中就认识你。

You knew me in my mother's womb.

我就是道路、真理和生命。

I am the way, the truth, and the life.

没有人能到父那里去，除非通过我。

No man comes to the father but through me.

这些正是塔拉里科在竞选活动中明确否认的内容，但《基督教今日》的播客却完全没提到这些。

So these are the things that Talarico has expressly denied out on the campaign trail, and yet you have a Christianity Today podcast doesn't mention any of those things.

它只是说，那并不真实。

It just mentions that actually, that's not true.

它确实提到了一件事，说有很多方式，你知道，这些宗教都是爱的宗教，最终都能抵达同样的真理。

It did mention the the thing about there are many ways that, you know, these are religions of love, and they all get to the same truth.

他们并没有称其为异端，埃里克。

They didn't call it heresy, Eric.

他们只是说，这只是一个有点薄弱的回答。

What they did was they said that it was just sort of a weak answer.

就像他们觉得他只是对这个问题没有给出最好的回答。

Like, they thought he just he didn't give the best answer to that.

这就是他们对这件事的表述方式。

That was how that was framed.

然后我们再跳到这个月。

And so then you flash forward, this month.

大卫·弗伦奇在《纽约时报》上发表了一篇文章，和《基督教今日》一样，他说这是一种体面且合乎基督教的公众见证，一种令人耳目一新的、得体的基督教见证，所有这些MAGA基督徒——正如他所称的——看到塔拉里科的榜样，都会因这个人的基督教品格而感到羞愧。

David French then put out an essay in the New York Times where just like Christianity Today, he said that this is a decent and Christian witness for the public, a refreshingly decent Christian witness that all of these, MAGA Christians, as he puts it, would look at Talarico's example and feel shamed by how Christian this man is.

我只是觉得塔拉里科在公共场合应该被恶作剧一下。

I just think Talarico should get a wedgie in the public square.

但是，你知道的

But, you know

那是因为那是你的MAGA基督教话题。

Well, that's because that's your Maga Christianity topic.

别再这么做了。

Do that anymore.

那就是MAGA基督教。

That's Maga Christianity.

我们马上回来，继续与梅根·巴什姆对话。

We'll be right back talking to Megan Basham.

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为什么下一个不是你呢？

Why not you next?

欢迎回来。

Welcome back.

我们正在与梅根·巴什姆对话。

We're talking to Megan Basham.

是的。

Yes.

女士们先生们，今天我邀请了梅根·巴什姆作为嘉宾。

Ladies and gentlemen, I have Megan Basham as my guest today.

所以梅根，你刚刚提到了一个令人不适的话题——大卫·弗rench这个人。

So Megan, you know, you just brought up, the, the uncomfortable topic of, the person of David French.

他简直像是被虚构出来的，因为他已经荒谬到了极点。

It's like he was made up, like he's a fictional character because he's become so preposterous.

我的朋友加布·莱昂斯拜托我，我曾勉强和大卫·弗rench进行过一次辩论。

I mean, remember as a favor to a friend, I kind of debated David French for my friend Gabe Lyons.

他说：‘你能和他聊聊吗？’ 那还是2020年的事。

He goes, Will you have a conversation with And this was back in 2020.

我当时对大卫·弗rench还抱有一丝善意。

And I gave David French the benefit of the doubt.

我想：‘哦，他是我在基督里的弟兄，我们可以好好谈谈。’

I thought, Oh, you know, he's my brother in Christ, we'll have a conversation.

但即便那时，我也觉得他疯了。

But even then, I just thought he's crackers.

他想象着拜登不会试图摧毁这个国家，或者拜登不是被黑暗的马克思主义力量操控的行尸走肉，那些力量只是在操纵这个愚蠢、呆板的人物，他只想当总统，却假装邪恶根本不存在，我们唯一能确定的只是特朗普是邪恶的，我们必须击败特朗普。

He's imagining that Biden isn't going to try to destroy the country or that Biden isn't a corpse animated by dark Marxist forces who are who are just gonna manipulate this this dopey, daughtering figure who just wants to be president and kinda pretending like, you know, there's evil doesn't exist, and and the the only thing we can really know is that Trump is evil, and we have to defeat Trump.

我简直好奇，这些人怎么还能找到愿意相信他们、认为他们某种程度上是保守派或基督徒的观众。

And I I'm just fascinated by how these people can still find audiences who will take them at their word that they are somehow conservative or somehow Christian.

那么，这种说法在什么时候才变得毫无意义呢？

I mean, at what point does that become meaningless?

是的。

Right.

而且，令我感到特别阴险的是，正如我所说，即使这些行为没有协调，他们至少也达成了共识，他们的论点都是一致的：他们都把塔利科当作一位基督徒弟兄来对待。

And a part of what has been so insidious about what seems to be like I said, if it's not coordinated, they're at least all on the same page and they're talking points is that they are all treating.

《基督教今日》、《圣邮报》、菲尔·巴什姆、《蔬菜童话》、大卫·弗伦奇，他们都在把塔利科当作基督徒弟兄来对待，但他的所有信仰都应当促使我们大声宣告：无论你是否像特朗普那样撒谎，作为基督徒，我们都应当明确表示：这根本不是一位基督徒。

So Christianity Today, Holy Post, Phil Basham, VeggieTales, David French, they are treating Talarico as a Christian brother when everything about his beliefs should compel us to loudly say, regardless of, you know, whether you lie like Donald Trump or not, we should be compelled as Christians to say, this is not a Christian man.

他的教义中没有任何地方能证明他配得上被称为弟兄，但他们却完全无视这一点。

Nothing about his doctrine demonstrates that this is someone I can credibly call a brother, and they're not doing that.

相反，他们不仅试图把他包装成基督徒，还把他塑造成比普通投票支持特朗普的福音派信徒更优秀的基督徒。

Instead, they are very much trying to not just sell him as a Christian, but sell him as a better Christian than your average ordinary evangelical who voted for Donald Trump.

所以我认为这些是非常关键的点，因为他们一再声称，他比MAGA阵营所展现的要更加基督徒。

So I think those are really key things because they repeatedly said he is so much more Christian than what we see coming out of MAGA.

我认为塔利科让我们看到的真正危险之处在于，当《圣洁邮报》谈到这一点时，他们随后发布了一篇文章，称他相信尼西亚信经。

And the the really dangerous thing I think we're seeing from Talarico is that, when the holy post talked about it, they then put out this post saying he believes in Nicene Creeds.

或者他们基本上表示，你只需要认同尼西亚信经，就可以算是基督徒。

Or, they basically said, all you need to be a Christian is to affirm the Nicene Creed.

但就连撒旦也能认同尼西亚信经。

Well, Satan could affirm the Nicene Creed.

问题不在于此。

That's not the issue.

真正的问题是，你是否顺服基督？

The issue is, do you have obedience to Christ?

你是否结出与悔改相称的果子？

Do you have fruit in keeping with repentance?

当然，我们在塔利科身上看不到任何这些迹象，但这就是我们从这些组织——我相信这些人物旨在将左翼和民主党的言论包装成某种基督教立场——身上看到的障眼法。

And of course, we see none of these things from Talarico, but that's the sleight of hand that we're seeing from, you know, these organizations who I believe and these figures are there to sort of launder left wing and democratic talking points as somehow Christian.

这很重要，埃里克，因为目前如果塔拉里科成为共和党候选人，他在民调中领先科尼恩一分，如果他成为共和党候选人，他也领先肯·帕克顿两分。

And it matters, Eric, because right now, Talarico is polling one point ahead of Cornyn if he ends up being the Republican candidate and two points ahead of Ken Paxton if he ends up being the Republican candidate.

所以目前我认为，塔拉里科所展现的这种形象——我相信这是一种虚假的形象——确实正在欺骗和迷惑德克萨斯州一些保守的基督徒，他们愿意投票给他，因为那是个铁票区。

So right now, I would say that this persona, and I believe it's a false persona that James Talarico is presenting, does appear to be fooling and confusing some conservative Christians in Texas who must be willing to vote for him because, you know, that's a stronghold.

那是一个福音派的红色州铁票区。

That's an evangelical red state stronghold.

因此，如果塔拉里科目前的民调数据如此接近，那就意味着有一些选民正在相信这套表演。

So if Talarico is polling even neck and neck right now, that means you've got some voters out there who are believing this act.

当他们看到《基督教今日》、大卫·弗伦奇或圣洁博客这样的媒体说：嘿。

And when they see people like Christianity Today or David French or the holy post saying, hey.

塔拉里科是个虔诚的基督徒，虽然我可能在某些观点上和他不同，但这没关系，你还是应该投他一票。

This is a strong Christian, and, you know, I may have some different beliefs than him, and that's okay, but you should still vote for him.

这种信息正在传播，而我感觉保守的基督徒们并没有足够有力地反驳——他们需要指出的不仅是他是个糟糕的候选人，他根本就不是基督徒。

I mean, that that message is coming across, and I don't feel that it's being combated strongly enough by conservative Christians who need to point out not just that he's a bad candidate, he's not a Christian.

嗯，你说保守的基督徒。

Well, listen, you say conservative Christians.

大卫·弗伦奇，说实话，已经到了我不愿称他们为基督徒的地步，因为如果没有果子，就在今天早上，我和妻子一起灵修时读到路加福音中约翰说：'毒蛇的后代！'

David French, mean, it gets to a point where I'm not even willing to say they're Christians because if there is no fruit you know, just this morning, my wife and I in our devotional together were reading in Luke where John the Baptist is saying, You brood of vipers.

这些人是当时最虔诚的人。

These are the most religious people of the time.

毒蛇的后代！

You brood of vipers.

我没有看到任何悔改的果子。

I don't see a fruit bearing with repentance.

而且，这又是那种糟糕的福音派观念，认为你因信得救，其实意思是你因神学得救，但可能根本不是这样。

Idea, and again, this is this crummy evangelical idea that, oh, you're saved by faith, which really means you're saved by your theology, which may no.

不是。

No.

上帝不会被你虚假的神学、你机械地宣称'我信这个、那个、另一个'所欺骗。

God is not fooled by your fake theology, by your checking off, I believe in this and this and this.

祂看到的是你的果子。

He sees your fruit.

所以我们愿意说，哦，这些人是基督徒，但我甚至不知道我们为什么要接受他们是基督徒这个观点。

And so the idea that we're willing to say like, oh, these people, they're Christians, but I don't even know why we have to accept the idea that they're Christians.

如果你支持奴隶制，或任何邪恶与腐败，或马克思主义，我无法理解你怎么能被称为基督徒。

If you are behind slavery or behind any kind of wickedness or corruption or Marxism, I don't I can't I don't know how I can see you as a Christian.

到了那个地步，这个词就毫无意义了。

It becomes meaningless at that point.

我们现在正在和梅根·巴什姆对话。

We're talking to Megan Basham.

我们马上回来。

We'll be right back.

大家好。

Hey there, folks.

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欢迎回来，继续与梅根·巴什姆对话。

Welcome back talking to Megan Basham.

所以梅根，我刚才说，这种问题在福音派世界里其实并不常见，但这些只是自称是基督徒的左翼狂人。

So Megan, I was just saying like, it becomes so silly that we haven't really had this problem in the evangelical world so much, but these are just leftist lunatics who claim to be Christians.

无论你是在谈论大卫·弗伦奇还是拉塞尔·摩尔，我看他们支持什么、反对什么，我都搞不懂他们到底在想什么，但这种说法——‘他们的神学是信耶稣为主’——对我来说已经完全失去了意义。

Whether you're talking about David French or Russell Moore, I look at what they're for and they're against, and I don't know what to think, but this idea that, well, their theology, they believe in Jesus as Lord, to me, it really has become completely meaningless.

我甚至在2012年参加全国祈祷早餐会演讲时就说过，这就像我们在玩一场游戏。

I even said this in 2012 at the National Prayer Breakfast when I was speaking, it's like a game we play.

比如我们会说，某某人有这种神学，某某人有那种神学。

Like we say, well, so and so has this theology and that theology.

圣经说我们要凭他们的果子认出他们，可我不明白为什么我还要继续配合这套逻辑，就像天主教徒为什么要认同乔·拜登是天主教徒、南希·佩洛西是天主教徒一样。

We're supposed to know them by their fruits, and I don't know why I have to go along with this anymore than why do Catholics go along with either of Joe Biden is a Catholic and Nancy Pelosi is a Catholic.

真的吗？

Really?

怎么做到的？

How?

有人能给我解释一下吗？你怎么能支持堕胎、道德败坏，却还说自己是天主教徒？为什么天主教领袖不更强烈地谴责他们？

Somebody explain to me, how you can be pro abortion and be damnably corrupt and say you're Catholic, and why isn't the Catholic leadership denouncing them more forcefully?

在许多情况下，天主教领袖往往并不发声。

And Catholic leadership doesn't often case in in many cases.

我在福音派世界里也有同样的感受。

And I feel the same way in the evangelical world.

这简直变得荒谬了。

Like, it it just becomes silly.

大卫·弗伦奇已经成了左派的工具。

David French has become a tool of the left.

他支持卡玛拉·哈里斯，而哈里斯会乐于摧毁这个国家。

He supported Kamala Harris, who would have happily destroyed the nation.

我只是觉得，这真的太荒谬了。

And I don't I just it to me, it just becomes silly.

是的。

Yeah.

而且，我的意思是，我认为神学非常重要。

And I mean, look, I think theology is really important.

我认为正确理解神学很重要。

I think it's important to get your theology right.

但我认为你所展示的是，他们假装像生命何时开始、男女本质是什么这样的问题不是神学议题，而它们确实是。

But I think what you're showing is that, they're pretending like things like when does life begin or what is the nature of female and male are not theological issues, and they are.

因此，我们看到的詹姆斯·塔拉里科所做的，就是将这些明显属于神学和道德议题的问题重新定义为政治问题。

And so, you know, that's so much of what we're seeing with James Talarico is reframing these things that are clearly theological moral issues into something political.

而且，你知道，这并不意外。

And, you know, that's to be expected.

某种程度上，我们以前就从左翼看到过这种现象。

I you know, in some degree, we've seen this before from the left.

对吧？

Right?

你可以一直追溯到吉米·卡特，然后说，好吧。

You can go all the way back to Jimmy Carter and go, okay.

你知道，他把自己描绘成，我是比当时保守的基督徒和道德多数派更虔诚的基督徒。

You know, he pitched himself as, you know, I am more Christian than the conservative Christians and the moral majority at that time.

而且，他知道，他个人是支持生命权的，并会为这些立场辩护，尽管他把它们仅仅视为政治分歧。

And, know, he would I personally am, you know, pro life and would defend those positions of his party, though, as just simply being political disagreements.

但我认为，在七十年代，吉米·卡特能做到这一点是可能的，而今天则不然，因为今天的民主党已经不是七十年代的民主党了。

But I think it was it was more possible, you know, back in the seventies for a Jimmy Carter to do that than it is today because the democratic party of today is not what it was in the nineteen seventies.

所以，它现在采取了如此道德上令人憎恶的立场，你根本无法将它们与圣经中的上帝或经文调和。

So it has now taken such morally abhorrent positions that you can in no way reconcile them with the god of the bible or with scripture.

所以，我认为这就是问题所在。

And so I think that is the problem.

因此，当你看到大卫·弗伦奇或拉塞尔·摩尔公开说，詹姆斯·塔拉里科是我们不同意的人时。

And so, you know, when you have a David French or a Russell Moore openly saying that, James Talarico is someone we disagree with.

所以他们会这么说。

So they would say that.

他们会说，我支持生命权。

They would say, I am pro life.

我只是不同意他的观点。

I just disagree with him.

但对我来说，重要的是他们仍然将他承认为一位基督徒弟兄，而我认为圣经命令我们不应如此做。

But the important point to me is they are still acknowledging him or recognizing him as a Christian brother in a way that I think scripture commands us not to do that.

我们被教导说，不应与那些宣扬与圣经直接相悖观点的人一同吃饭，却还把他们当作弟兄对待，而这正是他们正在做的。

We are told that we should not even eat with someone who is espousing views that are in direct opposition to scripture and treat them like a brother, and that's what they're doing.

当你说到他们正在这样做时，你指的是塔拉里科，但我觉得大卫·弗伦奇和拉塞尔的做法就太荒谬了。

And when you say that's what they're doing, you mean Talarico, but then I would say David French It and Russell just becomes silly.

而且听我说，我真心祝愿每个人安好。

And listen, I genuinely wish everyone well.

我真心希望能在天堂见到这些所有人，但情况变得如此混乱，以至于在我看来，他们简直就是厌恶特朗普的疯狂左派，假装自己是基督徒，或自我欺骗地认为，最基督教的做法就是憎恨唐纳德·特朗普并反对他，但情况已经糟透了。

I genuinely hope that I see all these folks in heaven, but it becomes so confusing that they just seem to me Trump hating unhinged leftists, basically, who are somehow pretending to be Christian or have deluded themselves into thinking that the most Christian thing you can do is hate Donald Trump and work against him, but it's gotten bad.

我的意思是，情况真的已经糟糕透顶了，我想我可能会把很多人归入这一类，比如迈克·彭斯，或者乔治·W。

I mean, it's gotten really bad, and I guess I would put a lot of folks in this category, Mike Pence or, or George W.

布什。

Bush.

我的意思是，这一切都变得毫无意义了。我的意思是，迈克·彭斯在上一次选举中并没有支持特朗普，所以他显然对卡玛拉·哈里斯毁灭美国这件事无动于衷，或者他根本无知到以为她不会毁灭美国。

I mean, it it all becomes kind of meaningless that I mean, Mike Pence did not endorse Trump in the last election, so he would have clearly been fine with Kamala Harris destroying America, or maybe he's so ignorant that he didn't think she would destroy America.

我不知道到底是什么原因，但我真的无法在任何层面上认真看待他。

I don't know what it is, but I don't know how I can take him seriously on any level.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为，我们必须在基督教政治中开始面对这个问题：我们都不愿意说像迈克·彭斯这样的人没问题。

And I think that is what we're gonna have to start wrestling with in our Christian politics is that none of us wanna say that somebody like a Mike Pence okay.

听好了。

Look.

他现在是错的。

He he is wrong now.

他已偏离了本应正确的基督教政治思想。

He is outside of, what should be sound Christian political thought.

现在，你知道，我相信并且确信，如果他坐下来列出他的信仰，我在教义上关于堕胎、跨性别问题或同性恋等议题上的观点，基本上会与他一致。

Now, you know, I I believe and I am sure that if he sat down and said, here are my beliefs, I would primarily agree with them in terms of, you know, where we fall doctrinally on issues like abortion or the trans issue or homosexuality.

但如果你这么说，却愿意让这些破坏性的观念在我们国家蔓延，仅仅因为你不喜欢某个特定的人，那么至少我必须质疑：你的辨别力是不是出了问题？

But if you say that and you're willing to see those kinds of destructive ideas take hold in our nation just because you don't like one particular guy, then at the very least, I have to question, okay, is your discernment off?

再进一步，像大卫·弗伦奇或拉塞尔·摩尔这样的人，会公开宣称：即使他持有这些反基督教的信念，称上帝是非二元的，并说任何人都能上天堂，他仍然是个基督徒。

And then you take it one step further to a David French or Russell Moore who will openly say, this is a Christian even though he has these anti Christian beliefs and calls God nonbinary and says you can get to heaven anyway.

到了这一步，很难不怀疑他们的救恩究竟在哪里，因为这种程度的盲目实在难以想象。

At that point, it's hard not to question, you know, where they are in terms of their salvation because that's a level of blindness that's really hard

超越。

to out.

广告时段，各位。

Segment, folks.

我们马上回来，继续与梅根·巴什姆对话。

We'll be right back talking to Megan Basham.

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Plus they're made right here in The USA and they ship right to your front door absolutely free.

所以，请访问mypillow.com或拨打屏幕上的电话号码。

So go to mypillow.com or call the number on your screen.

使用这个促销代码，即可以低至99.98美元的价格购买My Pillow床垫和垫层，并享受免费配送。

Use this promo code to get my pillow mattresses and toppers for as low as $99.98 and free shipping.

欢迎回来。

Welcome back.

我正在和梅根·巴什姆交谈。

I'm talking to Megan Basham.

好吧。

And okay.

梅根，我刚才打断了你，但我觉得——这一点我近几年来反复思考过：我们总是纠结于一些细枝末节，比如‘迈克·彭斯在神学上和我观点一致’。

Megan, I cut you off the end, but I see, this is to me, I've thought about this a lot in the last few years, how we're straining at gnats by talking about, like, well, Mike Pence would agree with me theologically.

我觉得我们忽略了耶稣说的那句话：‘你们凭他们的果子就能认出他们来。’

And I feel like we're forgetting when Jesus says you'll know them by their fruits.

换句话说，首先，你和我根本不需要去断定迈克·彭斯在这种情况下是不是基督徒。

In other words, first of all, you and I do not have to affirm whether Mike Pence in this case is a Christian or not.

我们完全可以简单地说：‘我们不知道。’

We can simply say we don't know.

我们希望他是。

We hope he is.

我们认为他是个好人。

We think he's a nice guy.

他确实是，但人们会采取某些行动，我认为我们都误以为，到了天堂门口时会有一场神学考试。

He is, but there are certain actions that people take, and I think that we have all been fooled into thinking that there's gonna be a theological quiz when we get to the pearly gates.

我和你提到的那些牧师，他们会说：‘我们在教会里传讲圣经。’

And I mean, a lot of these pastors that you and I have spoken about, that they would say, well, we preach the Bible at our church.

但我会说：不，你们根本没有在教会里传讲圣经。

And I would say, no, you don't preach the Bible at your church.

你们应该传讲的是勇气。

The Bible, you would be preaching about courage.

你们应该告诉人们要对抗邪恶。

You would be telling people to stand against evil.

这才是圣经的教导。

That's what the Bible says.

但他们却好像认为：不不不，我们只是传讲圣经，好像不需要传讲道德勇气，好像不需要告诉人们，一旦站出来就要付出代价，可能会被伊斯兰极端分子斩首，他们反而觉得：‘我们只传讲一些温和的内容’，而这些是分开的。我会说，你们实际上是在放弃自己的职责，因为基督教信仰远不止是勾选这些神学条目，但我们却往往配合这种观念，比如，我们太在意拉塞尔·摩尔的神学立场，而他所说所写的一切，其实都透露出一些非常令人不安的东西。

But they act like, no, no, no, we just preach the Bible as though you don't have to preach moral courage, as though you don't have to preach that you're going to pay a price if you take this stand, or you may be beheaded by Islamists, or they kind of act like, well, no, we preach the nice stuff, and that's separate, and I would say you're actually, you're abdicating your job, and that Christian faith is more than ticking off these theological boxes, but we kind of we play along with that idea, you know, by, like, caring what Russell Moore's theology is when we can see everything he says and writes tells me something which is very, very disturbing.

对。

Right.

而且值得注意的是，这种‘只要我们神学正确，就是基督徒’的说法将被如何利用，因为你看到那个‘圣洁帖子’就是这样做的。

And it's important to note how this is gonna be used, this issue of saying, we just have to get our theology right, and then we're Christians, because, that's what you saw the holy post doing.

所以，我想为你引用一段话。

So, you know, I wanna quote for you.

我其实从播客的文本中截取了这段内容。

I actually screenshot it from the podcast, the transcript.

迈克·科斯珀，我认为他是《基督教今日》的创意总监，不太确定他的确切头衔，但他在福音派圈子里非常有名，因为他制作并主持了《马尔斯山的兴衰》播客，讲述了迈克·马可·德里斯科尔和马尔斯山教会发生的事。

Mike Kosper, who is I think he's creative director at Christianity Today, not positive what his title is, but he's familiar he's very famous, within evangelical circles for producing and hosting the rise and fall of Mars Hill podcast that covered what happened with Mike Mark Driscoll and the Mars Hill church.

所以，这很有趣。

So what he's which is interesting.

对吧？

Right?

他说他和马克·德里斯科尔在神学上往往立场一致，但当然，他完全反对马克·德里斯科尔，因为他认为后者存在人格问题。

He his he would say that he and Mark Driscoll tend to be on the same page theologically, and yet, of course, he is completely opposed to Mark Driscoll because of what he sees as his personality issues.

然而，在处理詹姆斯·塔拉里科的问题时，卡斯珀在那个播客中是这么说的。

And yet, when dealing with James Talarico, this was what Casper said on that podcast.

他说，作为福音派，看到某些基督教元素以塔拉里科这种方式在公共领域呈现，是有积极意义的。

He said, as evangelicals, there's something good about seeing certain aspects of Christianity represented in the public square in the way that I think Talarico is doing it.

相比于我们在MAGA世界中看到的许多东西，塔拉里科在公共领域表达基督教的方式更让我受鼓舞。

I'm more encouraged by Talarico's expression of Christianity in the public square than by a lot of what we've seen in MAGA world.

所以请记住塔拉里科的立场，虽然他们并没有提到跨性别议题。

So keep in mind what Talarico's positions are, which they they didn't bring up the trans.

他们也没有提到堕胎问题。

They didn't bring up the abortion.

他们只是说，‘所有道路都通向基督’或‘所有道路都通向天堂’这种说法只是一个薄弱的答案。

They said the, all roads lead to Christ was or lead to heaven was just a, a weak answer.

不是异端，而是一个薄弱的答案。

Not heresy, but a weak answer.

因此，我认为作为基督徒，我们在本次中期选举季中需要持续留意这一点，因为他们试图传达的意思是：只要你认同信经，你就是基督徒。

And so I think that is what we're going to continue to need to be on the lookout for in this midterm election season as Christians because what they're trying to do is say, as long as you affirm the creeds, you're a Christian.

然而，尼西亚信经之外还有更多内容。

And yet there is so much more beyond the Nicene Creed.

正如我所说，撒旦也能认同尼西亚信经。

As I said, Satan could affirm the Nicene Creed.

但这并不能使他成为基督徒。

Doesn't make him a Christian.

这就引出了你的信仰是如何体现出来的，这正是你提到的，埃里克，关于果实的问题。

And so that gets to how your faith is working itself out, and that's what you brought up, Eric, in terms of fruit.

所以，如果你的果实连詹姆斯·塔拉里科这样的人也看不下去，无法说：听好了。

So if you have a fruit that cannot even look at someone like James Talarico and say, listen.

我不喜欢唐纳德·特朗普，但这个人是个异端，不是基督徒，鉴于他持有反基督的观点，没人应该投票给他，那么你就已经严重偏离正轨了。

I don't like Donald Trump, but that man is a heresy heretic and no Christian and someone no one should vote for given that he has antichrist views, then at that point, you are so far off the reservation.

很难想象你的心思到底在哪里，我实在无法理解。

It is really hard to look at you and go, I I don't understand where your mind is.

在我看来，至少到目前为止，你的心灵似乎已经没有受过洗了。

And it seems to me, at the very least, not a baptized mind at this point.

所以我不知道你对这一点怎么想。

And so I don't know where you go with that.

我不是在评判他们的救恩，但我想说的是，他们显然正处于一种极其盲目状态。

I'm not judging, you know, their salvation, but I'm saying, certainly, they're in a very blind moment.

我希望，也祷告他们能从中走出来。

And, hopefully, I pray that's something they can come out of.

但更大的问题是，这些家伙让我很烦。

But the bigger issue is, you know, these guys are annoying to me.

你和我经常谈论他们。

You and I talk about them all the time.

但我希望你的观众能意识到正在上演的把戏。

But what I want your audience to be aware of is the trick that's being played.

所以当你听到，嘿。

So when you hear, hey.

他和我们一样是个基督徒。

He's a Christian just like us.