How Sam Altman Uses Dots to Take Back His Time

你所有的提示词都是在Ultrafast上做的吗？

You do all your prompting on Ultrafast?

是的。

I do.

那太厉害了。

That's sick.

真不可思议。

That's crazy.

你知道吗，七个人的想法汇聚在一起，能创造出某种新东西，这种东西在某种程度上存在于我们每个人的脑海中，但却是突然涌现出来的。

You know, seven people's dots can working together create something new that kind of existed in all of our heads to some degree, but was like an emergent thing.

嘿。

Hey.

我是Dan Shipper。

This is Dan Shipper.

你可能想知道AI和我之间发生了什么。

You might be wondering what happened to AI and I.

这还是同一个节目。

This is the same show.

我们只是把它改名为Every播客。

We are just rebranding it to the Every podcast.

我很期待我们和山姆·奥特曼的第一期节目。

I'm really excited for our first episode with Sam Altman.

这就是了。

Here it is.

山姆，欢迎来到节目。

Sam, welcome to the show.

谢谢邀请我。

Thanks for having me.

很高兴你能来。

Psyched to have you here.

我们现在在DevDay现场。

So we're here at DevDay.

我觉得如果你四年前告诉我编程模型能达到这个水平，我会想，哇，那DevDay上可能不会有这么多开发者了，但现在看来开发者比以往任何时候都多，工作也比以往任何时候都多。

I think if you had told me four years ago that the coding models were at this level of capability, I would have been like, wow, I don't know if there would be a lot of developers at DevDay, but there's more developers than ever, it seems like, and more work to do than ever.

那么，随着编程模型能力的不断提升，以及你看到它对工程领域的影响，这对工程的未来，以及更广泛地说，AI时代的未来工作，你有什么看法？

So what has the, like, riding the increasing capabilities of coding models and seeing the impact on engineering taught you about the future of engineering and more broadly, like, future of work with AI?

我觉得人们就是想要更多的东西。

I think people just want so much more stuff.

人们的期望非常高，我觉得这是件好事。

People's expectations are so high, And I think that's a wonderful thing.

我认为这就是为什么我们面前会有这样一个令人难以置信的未来等着我们去探索。

I think this is why we'll all have this incredible future in front of us to explore.

但开发者们，他们从来没有能力做这么多事，但标准也从来没有这么高过。

But developers, they've never been able to do more, but there's never been a higher bar either.

我觉得这很棒。

And I think that's great.

我觉得这是社会的一个美好之处。

I think it's like a nice thing about society.

这让你感到意外吗？

Is that something that surprised you?

你预料到会发生这种情况吗？

Did you expect that to happen?

我从来不像其他人那样对工作前景那么悲观，但世界上的潜在需求如此之大，这确实让我有些意外。是的。

I think I was never, like, as doomer y about the job stuff as other people, but it still has surprised me somewhat on the upside of just how much latent demand existed in the world Yeah.

还有……

And how...

还有，人们始终是AI发展中的核心，这一点也让我很意外。

And also how much, like, people have remained at the center of everything that is happening with AI.

你觉得

Do you

这种情况有没有上限，还是说它也能很好地适用于其他工作领域？

think there's a a limit to that, or do you think that translates pretty cleanly to other areas of work?

我觉得有些工作领域其实不需要太多创造力，我们也不在乎做这些工作的人是谁。

I think there will be some areas of work where there's actually not much creativity required and we don't care about the person doing it.

其中很多任务或工作将由AI来完成。

And many of those tasks or jobs will be done by AI.

但我认为世界上还有很多其他人们想要的东西。

But I think there's so much other stuff people want in the world.

新的事情永远不会缺，总有新的东西可以去做。

There's gonna be no shortage of new things to go to go do.

我觉得这是最近一段时间给我们的一个教训。

I think that's been one of the lessons of recent time.

为什么你觉得即使我们经常谈论自动化，事情还是如此以人为中心？

Why do you think it's so human centered even though we talk a lot about automation?

我的意思是，一个观察就是我们只是……

I mean, one one observation is we just...

我们其实不太在乎机器做什么。

We don't care that much about what the machines do.

从某种意义上说，我们从来都不在乎。

And in some sense, we never have.

我们就是，怎么说呢，特别关注别人。

And we're just, like, we're obsessed with other people.

我们想知道艺术背后的人，或者公司背后的人，或者想法、产品背后的人。

We wanna know about the person behind the art or the person behind the company or the idea or the product.

我觉得这是个很棒的、让人惊喜的发现，其实我们早就该明白这一点了。

And I think this is, like, a wonderful positive surprise that we probably should have all known before.

我同意。

I agree.

就是……

It's...

我一直在想，如果一个智能体在数据中心里解出了纳维-斯托克斯方程，但没人知道，那它真的算解出来了吗？

I've been thinking, like, if an agent solves a Navier Stokes in a data center, but no one finds out, did it really solve it?

你懂吧？

You know?

我觉得那是个很好的例子，你看，一万个智能体齐心协力，完美配合，辛苦工作了四天，完成了这么了不起的事情。

I think that was, like, a great example where, you know, 10,000 agents worked super hard for four days in perfect coordination with each other and did this amazing thing.

而且几乎没有人真正关注那个被解决的问题。

And almost none of the public reaction was about that actually, the problem being solved.

大家更多在讨论解读，讨论参与其中的不同的人。

A lot of talk about the interpretation, a lot of talk about, like, the people involved in it in different ways.

但是，你知道，那就像……

But, you know, that was like a...

那其实是件好事。

That was a good thing.

所以今天是DevDay。

So it's DevDay.

据我统计，你今天发布了22个新东西。我参加了全部四届DevDay，我记得去年大概是9个，前年大概四五个。

You launched, by my account, 22 new things today, which I've been at all four DevDays, and I think last year was like nine, and the year before that was like four or five.

所以这次比以往多很多。

So it's a lot more than usual.

那是……

Is that...

那就等着看明年吧。

Just wait for next year.

好的。

Okay.

我累了。

I'm tired.

我累了。

I'm tired.

我们砍掉了一些

We cut a

本来打算今天发布的东西，因为得在五十分钟内讲完。

bunch of things that we were gonna launch today just because you have to like fit it in fifty minutes.

不过，你知道，我们尽量做到言行一致。

But, you know, like, we try to practice what we preach.

如果我们说这些工具能让人效率更高、做出更多东西，而且人们想要更多，那我们自己也得做得更多才行。

And if we are saying these tools can make people much more productive and build more and that people want more stuff, like, we better build more ourselves.

那这样做的话，新的瓶颈和最佳实践是什么？

What are the new kind of bottlenecks and best practices for doing that?

因为我我自己能感觉到，而且我猜你们也看到了这一点。

Because I I can see for myself, and and I assume you guys are seeing this too.

比如说，现在什么都能建了，你反而会想，我们到底该建什么，怎么让这些东西都协调一致？

Like, now that you can build everything, you're like, what what should we build, and and how do we make it all coherent?

你们是怎么考虑这个问题的？

How do you think about that?

转向这种持久智能、主动智能，不管大家怎么叫它，就是会有这些代理，

Moving to this world of sort of persistent intelligence, active intelligence, whatever people wanna call it, this idea that you're gonna have these agents that

在

are

后台全天候运行，连接你的系统，主动为你做事。

running in the background twenty four seven connected to your systems, doing stuff proactively for you.

这显然是一个值得探索的重要方向。

This is clearly a direction that feels important to explore.

我觉得我们会在那里看到很多惊人的成果。

I think we're gonna see amazing stuff happen there.

另外，我们真的很想做的一件事是……

Another thing we really wanted to do is there's just...

现在有太多想法可以实现，而我们缺少的是去发现并实现它们的创造力。

There are now so many ideas that are capable of being built, and what we are missing is the creative spirit to figure them out and build them.

所以我们想真正开放我们的生态系统，让人们像我们一样在ChatGPT里构建应用。

So we wanted to really open up our ecosystem, let people build apps in ChatGPT in, like, the same way that we get to do them.

让人们可以随意携带他们的订阅，拥有市场，并且真正让人们连接到那些他们无法构建的东西。

Let people bring their subscription wherever they'd like, have the marketplace, and and really try to let people get connected to all the stuff that people will not be able to build.

我的意思是，我……

I mean, I I...

看看你们推出的所有平台功能，以及你们谈论平台的方式，这让我想起比尔·盖茨曾经谈论Windows作为平台的方式，即你创造的价值比你获取的更多。

Just looking at all the platform features that you launched and the way that talk about platforms, it reminds me a lot of the way that Bill Gates used to talk about Windows as a platform where you create more value than you capture.

你在主题演讲中说过这一点，我也观察到了，你学到了什么？

What have you learned, you know, you said this in your keynote and I've observed it as well.

就是……

There's...

在DevDay上，总是有个应用商店。

At DevDay, there's always an app store.

你一直在尝试做应用商店。

You've taking swings at app stores for a while.

关于构建平台，你学到了什么？你觉得这个平台有什么不同？

What have you learned about building a platform, and what do you think makes this one different?

我们确实还没完全搞明白应用商店该怎么做，但我们已经知道如何构建一个平台，让很多人在上面创造巨大的价值。

I I mean, we we clearly have not yet figured out the app store equivalent, but we have figured out how to build a platform that a lot of people are building incredible value on top of.

我觉得在搞AI模型公司的人里，大概有两种思路。

I I think there are really kinda two schools of thought among people building AI model companies.

有些人相信或者希望世界上只会有一家公司。

There are people that believe or hope that there's only gonna be one company in the world.

而像我们这样的人则相信，我们会看到公司数量的大爆发，门槛大大降低，一个人或小团队就能创造出令人惊叹的新产品和服务。

And then there are people like us that believe we are going to see a renaissance in the number of companies and just an absolute lowering of the bar to people, one person companies, small team companies, creating incredible new products and services.

我们想尽最大努力把平台做好，让大家都能够做到这一点。

And we wanna go as hard as we can with the platform to enable people to do that.

虽然我觉得我们还没完全搞定App Store，这确实没错。

And although I think we haven't figured out the App Store yet, that's totally fair.

我觉得我们已经帮助了成千上万的人去创造和开发出重要的新产品和公司。

I think we have figured out how to help, like, millions of people build and create significant new products and companies.

如果你要具体说的话，你之前提到过……

If you had to narrow in, you you said...

你在主题演讲里谈到了工业革命和文艺复兴的区别，这真是……

You you talked at the keynote about an industrial revolution versus a Renaissance, which just...

你刚才又提到了这个。

Which you just mentioned now.

如果要具体说说，你觉得哪些关键因素决定了这两种世界的不同？可能是在OpenAI的合作伙伴方面，也可能是在更广泛的生态系统中，你觉得这些因素是什么？

If you had to narrow in on the key things that make the difference between those two worlds and maybe OpenAI's partner, but maybe even the broader ecosystem, what do you think those things are?

一种看法是，文艺复兴本质上是以人为中心的，而工业革命本质上是以机器为中心的。

One take on this would be that the Renaissance was fundamentally centered around people, and the Industrial Revolution was fundamentally centered around machines.

工业革命确实有很多好处。

There were a lot of good things about the Industrial Revolution.

它在很多方面对世界产生了巨大的积极影响。

It had a, you know, hugely positive impact on the world in in many ways.

但我认为很多人并没有从个人层面感受到纯粹的正面影响，那种人们生活丰富、做了很多事情的感觉。

But I think a lot of people did not have a purely positive personal impact from that, and this feeling that people had these rich lives and did all these things.

当然，他们确实挣扎过，想要更多更好的东西，而工业革命在某种程度上确实满足了这一点。

And, yeah, of course, they struggled and wanted more and better stuff, and that's the part the industrial revolution did deliver in some ways.

但在很多情况下，他们被变成了某种认知机器，做着极其专业的事情，与让生活美好的许多部分脱节了。

But they were kind of turned into, in many cases, this, like, cognitive machine doing some extremely specialized thing and kind of, like, disconnected from a lot of the parts that made life good.

听到人们说“AI会自动化一切”时，我感到难过。

I get sad to hear people talk about, like, oh, AI is gonna automate everything.

人类将没有角色可扮演。

There's gonna be no role for humans.

我们会像家猫一样，AI来决定如何奖励我们，告诉我们该做什么。

We're gonna be, like, house cats, and the AI will decide how to reward us and tell us what to do.

家猫。

House cats.

我听过有人这么说。

I've heard people say that.

那当然不是我们的想法。

That's certainly not what we think.

我期待的是，这会带来一波巨大的新科学发现、艺术创作和创业浪潮，让每个想开创事业的人都能受益，同时大家都能享受到经济增长和新事物带来的好处。

What I am hopeful for is that this is just a huge new wave of scientific discovery, art, company formation, like everybody that wants to start a new thing, and that people do get the benefits of all the economic growth and the new stuff happening here.

而且，人们也能重新掌控自己的生活，有能力去做自己想做的事，按自己的方式安排时间。

But, also, people get to back in control of their lives and ability to kinda do the things they want and spend their time the way they want.

文艺复兴和工业革命相比，让我印象深刻的一点是，在文艺复兴时期，人们对“人”和“个体”的理解与工业革命时期那种“机器中的齿轮”完全不同。

One of the things that strikes me about the Renaissance versus the Industrial Revolution is in the Renaissance, you have a sort of different understanding of what it means to be a person and like an individual as opposed to sort of the cog in the machine.

你觉得我们现在对自身的看法，是否开始出现类似文艺复兴时期那样的转变？

Do you feel like you're starting to see any difference in how we think of ourselves as human that's comparable to the way that we changed how we think of ourselves during the Renaissance?

我是说，文艺复兴时期发生了太多事情。

I mean, so much happened during the Renaissance.

很难说就是这一件事，但但但肯定很大一部分是关于人们重新连接起很多已经……

It's hard to say there's, like, this one thing, but but but definitely a big part of it was about people, like, sort of reconnecting to a lot of things that had...

在在遥远的过去的东西。

In the in the distant past.

而且你确实会听到……

And you do hear...

然后然后还有，就是这种结合了那种疯狂的未来主义、科学和工程的发现，以及就是这种人类潜能大幅扩展的感觉。

And then and then also, like, this kind of combination of that with this crazy futurism and discovery of science and engineering and just sort of this this feeling that human potential had massively expanded.

而且你确实会听到人们同时谈论这两件事和AI，这也是我最初对这个类比感兴趣的原因。

And you do hear people talk about both of those things simultaneously with AI, which is kinda how I got interested in this as an analogy in the first place.

我的意思是，相对于未来可能实现的或者已经实现的，这只是一个非常微不足道的例子。

I mean, this is, like, a very trivial example relative to what is gonna be possible or already is possible.

但Dots，我们今天推出的新东西，是第一个让我重新掌控早晨和早晨心理空间的东西。

But the dots, the new thing we launched today, is the first thing that has given me back control of my mornings and, like, my mental space in the mornings.

我以前很喜欢清晨。

I used to love the early mornings.

那是我一天中最喜欢工作的时间。

It's my favorite time of the day to work.

那时候创造力最强。

It's, like, maximum creativity.

以前我会在那时候做当天最复杂、最需要深入思考的项目。

When I would, like, do the really deep complicated project of the day.

但现在我经营着这么大的公司，随时都有事情出问题。

And then now I, like, run this, like, big company, and something's going wrong all the time.

而且一晚上会发生很多事情。

And overnight, a lot of stuff happens.

如果我不马上看手机，有时候没事，但有时候真的会有大麻烦，如果我不理它一个小时，情况就会变得更糟。

And if I don't check my phone right away, then, you know, sometimes it was fine, and sometimes there was like a real disaster that if I ignored for an hour, just gotten much worse.

问题在于，我一查手机，脑子里就被各种乱七八糟的事情塞满了，深度工作的时段就没了。

The problem had been that as I checked my phone, I polluted my brain with all these other things, and I lost the deep work period.

但现在我信任我的小设备，它能帮我判断哪些事情需要我关注，哪些不用，如果有紧急的事它会告诉我，其他的它自己就处理了。

But now I trust my dot to go have good judgment about what I need to think about, not think about if there's something very urgent, otherwise handle things for me.

这样我就有了空间，可以用来搞点创意，或者就陪陪孩子。

And I get this space for kind of, like, creativity or to just hang out with my kids back.

这对我来说，真的是……

And that has been, like...

听起来可能没什么，但确实让我的生活改善了不少。

You know, it sounds small, but, like, a significant improvement to my life.

我正想问的就是……

That's what I was gonna ask is...

所以看起来……

So it look...

看起来它帮你挡掉了很多你可能得马上处理的事，你可以放心地留到后面，因为你确信需要的时候能看到。

It seems like it's deflecting a lot of things that you might have had to deal with immediately that you can just, like, leave for later because you're confident you get the thing you need when when you check it in

对。

the Yeah.

我的意思是，有两件事发生了……

I mean, two two things that happened to...

今天就是关于这个。

Today about that.

在主题演讲期间，我们有一个大型的七人制作团队。

During the keynote, we had, like, a big seven production.

这就是现场演示和同时部署许多新功能的风险。

This is the risk of live demos and trying to deploy many new features at once.

我当时在反复测试。

I was recurling.

我当时……

I was...

所以，事情就是这样发生的。

So so that happened.

Tebow在演示前五分钟收到了他老板的消息，说：提醒你一下，我看到你在DevDay主题演讲中。

Tebow got a message from his dot, five minutes before the demo, saying, just to let you know, there's I see that you're in the DevDay keynote.

我知道你一直在忙这个。

I know you were working on it.

我知道演示内容是什么，因为我能提前看到演示文稿之类的。

I know what the demo is because I was able to, like, look at the presentation in space or whatever.

然后那里……

And there...

你知道，这个订阅很可能会让演示出问题。

You know, the sub is probably gonna make the demo not work.

你想让我试着修一下吗？

Would you like me to try to fix it?

还有几分钟时间。

There's, a few minutes to go.

但现在还修不好。

And now it couldn't fix it yet.

不过，也许下一个版本，我们就能在生产环境里直接修复了。

But, like, maybe the next version, we'll be able to go fix that in prod.

然后，想想整个……

And, like, think about that whole...

就是所有那些必须凑到一起才能让那个东西运转的事情。

Like, all the stuff that had to come together to make that work.

就在刚才，我来这儿之前，我一整天都在忙个不停。

Just right now, before I came here, I've been in, like, back to back stuff all day.

我所有正常的工作都严重落后了。

Very, very behind on all of my normal stuff.

我的Dot，就在我走进上一个活动之前说，你现在到和Dan见面之间只有一个小休息时间。

My dot, just before I had walked into the last thing said, you have one little break between now and this thing you're gonna go to with Dan.

你必须注意这一件事。

You have to pay attention to this one thing.

不然我根本不会发现那个，而且那会是一团糟。

I never would have found that otherwise, And, like, it would have been a big mess.

而且，就是我不需要担心那件事，这感觉真的非常不一样。

And just the fact that I, like, don't have to worry about that feels feels super different.

你的Dot叫什么名字？

What's your Dot's name?

多蒂。

Dotty.

多蒂。

Dotty.

试试……

Try...

我之前叫它阿尔弗雷德。

I had it Alfred earlier.

然后呢，现在很多人都叫它多蒂。

And then, like, many people are calling it Dotty for now.

但我想想，得给它起个好名字。

But I'm trying to, like, think of a great name.

我的叫布。

Mine's name is Boo.

这个名字不错。

That's a good one.

这个名字不错。

That's a good one.

你觉得目前怎么样？

What do you think so far?

我知道现在还很早，而且还不成熟。

I know it's like super early and still rough.

我挺喜欢的。

I I like it.

它已经成了我默认的聊天方式，我觉得这是很有前景的一件事。

It has become the default way that I use chat, which I think is a very promising thing.

我

Me

也是。

too.

而且我跟你说过，我觉得，你知道，我在测试版里，所以我在早期阶段，所以我觉得它……

And I I shared with you like, I think, you know, I'm I'm in the beta, so I was in the the early period, so I I think it's...

不过，你知道，它也有局限性。

It, you know, it has limits.

对我来说，它一直有点小毛病。

It's like, has been a little bit buggy for me.

所以，是的。

So Yeah.

它可以在很多不同的设备上使用，比如手机，还有自己的云电脑，诸如此类的东西。我觉得把这些方面都弄好，是个大事。

There's a lot of different surfaces that it can be used on, like mobile, and it has its own cloud computer, and like all that kind of stuff, and I think those kinds of things, getting that cleaned up is a big deal.

但是，是的。

But, yeah.

那个……

That that...

我觉得这种事情，从现在开始，每周都会快速变好，但肯定需要一些时间来完善。

I I think this is the kind of thing where it's gonna get, like, better rapidly each week from here, but it's gonna definitely take some time to smooth it all up.

我也有类似的经历，当时我想改签航班，它说，嘿，你改签的这趟航班期间有个会议，但那个会议根本不在我的日历上。

I had a similar example where I was trying to reschedule a flight, and it was like, hey, you have a meeting during this flight that you're rescheduling, but it wasn't on my calendar.

它就是从Slack里读到的。

It had just like read it in Slack.

然后它就说，对。

And then it was like, yeah.

那种能把整个生活里的信息都串起来，甚至能做到连细心的人都很难做对的事情，真的非常厉害。

That that thing about the ability to bring context together from across your entire life, and like really do things in ways that would be hard even for an attentive person to get right, has been super impressive.

那个……

That...

那是我觉得它最有用的地方之一。

That's been one of the things I found most useful about it.

从研究的角度来看，要实现这个需要做些什么？

What had to happen from a research perspective to make this possible?

这是一个非常复杂的系统，包含很多东西，但可能……

This is like a very complicated system with a lot of stuff, but may...

最重要的可能是Astra。

Maybe most important was Astra.

我们需要一个……

We needed like a...

你需要一个足够聪明的模型。

You you needed a smart enough model.

然后还有很多其他东西要构建，但让模型跨过智能门槛是关键部分。

And then there were a lot of other things you had to build too, but but getting the model over the intelligence bar was a key part.

你告诉过我，有几次，不只是为了安排日程或处理紧急的事情，比如过滤，但有几次它帮你看到了某些东西，或者帮你做出了在OpenAI里你无法做出的决定……

You've told me that there's, like, there have been a couple times, not just for, like, scheduling or or or things that are urgent like filtering, but there have been a couple times where it's helped you see something or make a decision with OpenAI that you could not have...

你说你不可能雇人来做到这一点，因为那太复杂了。

You said you couldn't have hired someone to do that, like it it'd just be too complicated.

你有没有具体的例子可以分享？

Do have any specific examples you can share?

有一个新功能，我当时挺兴奋的，但很难向人们详细解释清楚，以便让他们把它做出来。

There there was one, like, new feature that I was kind of excited about, and it would have been very hard to explain it to people in enough detail to get it built.

而且即使解释了，也有很多种实现方式，我不确定该选哪一种。

And even then, there were, like, a lot of ways to do it, and I wouldn't have been confident in which one.

而且我就是，比如，我一想到什么，或者我在散步的时候，就会不停地记笔记，记到我的那个小工具里。

And I just, like, I I would just, like, constantly jot notes as I thought of something or as I was, like, on a walk or whatever to my dot.

然后那个小工具就自动去构建了五六个版本。

And then the dot went off and built, like, five or six versions.

我就能给出反馈。

I was able to give feedback.

我就能不断迭代。

I was able to iterate.

而且就是，只要我有空或者有想法，就能把原始的想法直接倒进去，然后还能得到持续的反馈，这真的很酷。

And it was just, whenever I had a spare moment or had an idea, and the kind of, like, the ability to just, like, dump that in raw form, the ability to, like, get and give pretty continuous feedback on it was very cool.

然后还有很多类似的类别，比如一个想法，可能...

And then there's, like, many categories like that where, like, an idea that would be...

你可能会很没把握，或者对你或别人来说，构建起来太费劲。

You'd be so unsure about or it would be too much effort for you or for someone else to build.

但实际上你可以就这样不断地迭代它。

You can actually just kind of, like, continually iterate on.

而且，睡觉前留一段长长的语音笔记，带着一堆想法慢慢入睡，这种感觉真的很棒。

And and it's it's, like, it's pretty cool to go to sleep and, like, just leave a long voice note as you're kind of drifting off with a bunch of thoughts.

早上醒来，不仅东西已经做好了，而且它已经自动完成了接下来的七步。

And, like, wake up in the morning, not only is the thing built, but it, like, went off and did, like, the next seven steps.

这太棒了。

It's the best.

然后就想，好吧。

And it's like, alright.

这真的是一个很酷的表达方式。

This is, a very cool way to express stuff.

而且，还有一些我以前通常会放弃的任务，或者以前就会放弃的任务。

And then and then also, like, there there's a set of tasks that I would normally give up on, or that I would have given up on before.

有一件事我确定在Slack里见过。

There was a thing that I was sure I had seen in Slack.

Slack的搜索功能显然很糟糕，所以我主要用Codex来搜索。

And Slack search is obviously terrible, so I mostly use Codex search it.

我之前一直在找这个东西，因为我想再找到它。

And I had been searching for this thing because I wanted to find it again.

我想引用它。

I wanted to reference it.

我花了大概十到二十分钟用Codex搜索，试了各种方法，都没找到。

And I spent like a good ten or twenty minutes trying to search with Codex and find this, and I kept trying different things, and didn't find it.

我当时就想，天哪，可能是我做梦梦到的，这事儿根本没发生过，因为Codex一般不会失手。

And I was like, man, like, maybe I dreamed it, and this didn't really happen because Codex doesn't usually fail.

我差不多就放弃了。

And I kinda gave up on it.

结果第二天，我的Dot跟我说，嘿，我注意到你之前想找那个东西，没找到。

And then, the next day, my Dot was like, hey, I noticed you were trying to do this thing, and you didn't find it.

但我整晚都在想这件事，我帮你找到了。

But I, like, kept thinking about it overnight, and I found it for you.

哇。

Wow.

我当时就想，什么？

And I was like, what?

结果是一张截图。

And it was a screenshot.

我脑子里忘了那是个截图，不是Slack里的文字。

I had forgotten in my head it was a screenshot, not text in Slack.

它就那么静静地

And it just, like, sat

待着

there

耐心地找事情帮我，然后看了每一张……

very patiently, looking for something to do to be helpful to me, and, like, looked at every...

就像直接对每张截图进行图像识别，然后找到了那个东西。

Like, Image Direct to every screenshot, and found the thing.

我当时就觉得，这真的太……

And I was like, that's really...

那真的很……

That's really...

我早就放弃了。

I would've given up on that.

我觉得有个……

I think there's a...

你……

You're...

我们总觉得Slack、邮件这些东西要读的太多了，而它正好能在那堆信息里，在合适的时候给你合适的东西。

We're constantly feeling there's way too much to read in Slack, on email, and all that kind of stuff, and it's perfect for that amount of context to just, like, get you the right thing at the right time.

人们一直在说，需要一个代理来应对互联网的冲击，以及那些试图抢占我们注意力、分散我们精力的各种东西。

People have talked about the need to have an agent deal with the just onslaught of the Internet, and all of the various things trying to, like, hack our attention and distract us and whatever.

我用了Dots这几个星期，确实发现，虽然科技在很多方面都很棒，但社交媒体、手机和通知那种疯狂抢占注意力的方式，比我之前意识到的要严重得多，至少对我个人来说是这样。

And I have definitely learned in the few weeks that I've been using dots that although technology is very wonderful in many ways, the kind of, like, crazy attention hacking of social media and phones and notifications had gotten way worse than I realized, for me personally.

这个节目里你听到很多关于AI工具的内容，但真正在你工作中占据核心位置的，其实是你的CRM。

You hear a lot about AI tools on this show, but the one that's truly at the center of your work is your CRM.

那里存储了你所有的客户信息，工作要么在那里完成，要么就被遗漏了。

It's where all of your customer context lives and where the work either happens or gets missed.

Adio 能帮你处理那些以前没时间专注的工作，还有更多。

Adio delivers the work that you never had time to focus on before and more.

它能在凌晨两点跟进潜在客户，在续约流失前及时抓住机会，还能在你想到之前就起草好后续邮件。

It picks up leads at 2AM, it catches renewals before they slip, and drafts the follow-up before you've even thought to send one.

你可以问任何关于业务的问题，从本周的预测到哪些交易变得沉寂，几秒钟内就能得到答案。

Ask anything about your business from this week's forecast to which deals have gone quiet and get the answer in seconds.

而且因为它支持 API 和 MCP 扩展，你的智能助手能和团队并肩工作，全天候建立销售管道、推进交易、扩大客户群。

And because it's extensible with an API and an MCP, your agents work right alongside your team to build pipeline, advance deals and grow accounts around the clock.

免费试用 Adio，访问 adio.com/every。

Try Adio for free at adio dot com slash every.

就是 adio.com/every。

That's adio.com/every.

现在，我们回到节目正题。

And now back to the episode.

跟我说说太空吧。

Tell me about space.

这确实是个大赌注，一次推出三款类似Office套件的工具。

It's it's a big bet to do three, like, Office Suite type tools in one launch.

我们一开始并没有打算这么做。

We didn't set out wanting to do this.

然后我们意识到，我相信你也意识到了类似的情况，那就是软件整体上并不是为与AI协作而设计的。

And then we realized, and I'm sure you've realized your own version of this too, that software was really not designed on the whole for collaborating with AI.

你可以自己使用它，或者让AI替你使用。

And you can use it yourself, or you can have AI use it on your behalf.

但要真正紧密协作，尤其是当多个人和多个人的AI一起工作时，我们现有的很多抽象概念就会失效。

But to really collaborate closely, especially when it's multiple people and multiple people's AIs all working together, like a lot of the current abstractions we have break down.

所以这绝对是一个雄心勃勃的赌注，但我认为人机协作这个领域确实值得探索。

So this is definitely an ambitious bet, but but I think the the space of human AI collaboration is really important to explore.

你是怎么使用它的？

How are you working with it?

比如说，你是在Space里审阅文档，还是在创建文档？

Like, are you reviewing docs in space, or are you making docs?

你有没有预期过，有多少内容是你自己输入的，又有多少是你的Dot帮你完成的？对于你收到的那些文档，你也是这么看的吗？

And do you have expectations for how much of it you're typing versus how much of it your dot is doing for you, and so also with the with the docs that you get?

你也是从这个角度来看的吗？

Like, are you are you viewing it from that perspective too?

如果有个新想法，我还是喜欢用传统的方式写下来，因为这样能帮我理清思路。

If there's, like, a new idea, I like writing the old fashioned way, because it helps me, like, think about it.

所以我仍然会这么做，然后可能会让我的女儿或者别人的Dot来做后续的工作。

So I still do that, and then maybe have my daughter or other people's dot, like, do the follow ups.

但我觉得最神奇的一点是——我们还没有一个词来形容这个，但暂且叫它“活文档”吧——就是创建一份文档，它会随着人们的互动或世界上其他事物的变化而自动更新。

But one of the things that I have found most amazing about it, and I don't think we have a word for this yet, but for lack of a better word, these, live documents, creating a doc that is going to automatically update as people interact or as other things change in the world.

而且，很多人的Dot可以一起协作，不仅仅是分享信息，而是，你懂的，七个人的Dot可以一起工作，创造出某种新东西，这个东西某种程度上存在于我们所有人的脑海里，但它是突然涌现出来的。

And something that, like, many of our dots can work with together, not only to, like, share information, but but actually, like, you know, seven people's dots can, working together, create something new that kind of existed in all of our heads to some degree, but was, like, an emergent thing.

当我们思考要探索哪些新功能时，这真的很有趣。

That's been very fun as we think about, like, new features to explore.

有没有哪个具体的实时文档对你来说最有用？

Is there a specific live doc that has been most useful for you?

我已经换成了……

I have switched...

比如，那个仪表盘……

Like, the dashboard...

我想每个人可能都有一个每天看的仪表盘，用来了解公司的情况，按他们关心的方式来看。

I think everybody's probably got, like, a dashboard that they look at every day for how the company's doing in the way they care about.

是的。

And Yeah.

你知道，我以前是跟其他人或者很多人共享一个。

You know, I used to share one with everybody else or many other people.

现在我有自己的一个，它就像一份不断变化的业务摘要，专门为我生成，基于我关心的或者不再关心的事情。

And I now have one that is kind of like a changing summary of the business just for me based off of, like, the evolving things that I'm caring about or not caring about.

它会看我所有的Slack消息，给我生成新的内容，不断更新，感觉就像一份活的文档。

Like, looks at all my Slack messages, makes me a new thing, like, constantly updates it, and it's like, oh, this just feels like a living document.

那太酷了。

That's sick.

那你现在关心什么？

What what do you care about now?

最近我脑子里想得很多的是，我们怎么应对眼前的安全对齐和安保挑战。

A lot on my mind recently is just how we're thinking about the safety alignment and security challenge in front of

我们。

us.

但你知道，六个月前，我可能更关心收入、增长这些传统业务指标。

But, you know, six months ago, I probably cared more about revenue and growth and metrics of this sort of traditional part of the business.

所以看着这些变化……

So watching that evolve...

我……

I...

我其实一直在想，我怎么能……

I've actually been thinking about how I can, like...

因为我很想知道我的 dot 每天最关心什么，长期下来会是什么样。

Because I'd be very curious to see what my dot thinks I care about each day the most over time.

而且我们现在还没有一个好的方式来可视化这个。

And we don't currently have a good way to visualize that.

这真的很有意思。

That is really interesting.

我一直没能让我的 dot 找到一个酷炫的方式来做到这一点。

I have not been able to get my dot to figure out a cool way to do that.

我一直想要……

I've been wanting...

我很想看到几年来的变化。

I would love to see that over the course of years.

我觉得这真的很酷。

I think that's really cool.

我一直想要一个像实时心情仪表盘的东西，因为我有我的 dot，比如我收到一条 Slack 消息，我会想，我不知道现在要不要看这条消息，我让我的 dot 去看，然后我再决定现在看还是晚点看。

I've been wanting one that just like, it's a live dashboard of my mood, because I I have my dot, like, I get a Slack message, and I'm like, I don't know if I wanna look at this Slack message, I have my dot go look at it, and then I'm like, should I look at this now or later?

然后它就会说，你应该晚点再看。

And it's like, you should look later.

我其实想要一个实时显示我心情的东西，所以我会——

And I kinda want like a live thing of my mood, so I'd

完全同意。

know it's Totally.

好。

Good.

我也想要那个。

I I want that too.

我会用那个的。

I would use that.

非常酷。

Very cool.

跟我讲讲决策API吧。

Tell me about decisions API.

我觉得决策API是今天最容易被忽视但又最重要的事情之一，因为JEV这个新热门东西确实改变了我们内部构建事物的思考方式。

I feel like the decisions API is one of the sneaky, most important things today because JEV is this new hot thing that has honestly changed how we think about building things internally.

这个决策API，你们是从JEV开始的，还是已经酝酿了一段时间？

Is this decisions API, did you start that from JEV, or has it has it been in the works for a while?

你们是怎么考虑的？

How do you think about it?

Diogo以前在OpenAI工作，他非常厉害。

Diogo used to work at OpenAI, and Diogo is awesome.

他长期以来一直在讨论这类想法。

And he was talking about this class of ideas for a long time.

我们一直在努力想办法让它实现。

And we had been working on trying to figure out how to make it work.

我们，呃……

We we...

比如，Luna最常被要求的就是这个，这就像人们总是想要更便宜、更快、更好的东西的一个例子。

Like, the number one request of Luna, and this is like an example of how people always want, like, more cheaper, faster, better.

但是Luna最受欢迎的需求，尽管大家都很喜欢那个模型，就是希望它更便宜、更快。

But the number one request with Luna, even though people love that model, was I want it to be even cheaper and even faster.

所以我们一直在思考如何在这方面进一步推进。

And so we have been thinking about how we could push it further in that direction.

看到Dev的反响后，我们确实更有动力优先朝这个方向努力。

Definitely seeing the response to Dev made us more excited to prioritize things in that direction.

但是……

But...

而且，Diogo长期以来一直启发我思考这个问题。

And, like, Diogo has inspired me for a long time on thinking about this.

但我想你会看到我们尝试以不同的方式推动，本着让技术对常见用例变得超快、超低成本的精神。

But I think you will see us try to push, you know, in different ways in the spirit of make the technology super fast and super low cost for common use cases.

你怎么看，比如像Dev这样的新模型出现后，OpenAI可以添加一个决策API。

How do you think about, you know, if something like Dev comes out, it's a kinda new type of model, and then OpenAI can can add, like, a decisions API.

你觉得这会如何改变NeoLabs和Labs之间的竞争，以及OpenAI能覆盖什么，新实验室又能专注什么？

How do you think about how that changes the race between NeoLabs and Labs, and and what what OpenAI can cover and what a new lab can focus on?

据我了解，JEV的做法很不一样，我觉得我们没法……

As I understand the approach of JEV, it's pretty different, and I don't think we can go...

我不……

I don't...

嗯，也许我们可以从头开始做类似的东西。

Well, maybe we could go do something from scratch like that.

但我觉得我们还有其他事情要做。

But I think we have other things to go do.

你知道，我们想在成本、速度和模态的帕累托曲线上，每个点都做出最好、最便宜、最快、能力最强的模型。

You you know, like, we wanna make the best, cheapest, fastest, most capable model at every point on the Pareto curve of cost and speed and modality.

但我觉得会有新的方法、新的架构、新的技术，这些我们不可能全都覆盖。

But I think there will be new approaches, new architectures, new technologies that are things we just can't cover all of.

但对于那种主流的主力模型，我们会努力做到。

But for the the kinda mainline workhorse, like, we will try to deliver that.

所以我一直在你耳边念叨Codex原生应用，已经有一阵子了。

So I've been, like, in your ear a lot about Codex native apps for a little while now.