第124期：Ryan Hall 2.0谈跑者的力量训练、大重量举重与越野跑

你在外头跑步的时候，真的一小时才跑十公里？还边跑边吃午饭？

Like do you run ten minute miles out there where you freaking having lunch while you're running or what?

他们根本不知道你在山上跳来跳去，翻石头、爬陡坡，拼命穿过这些特别险峻的山路。

You know, and they and they have no idea that you're freaking like jumping over rocks and, like, doing whatever to get through this super gnarly trail, you know?

所以外头简直就是一场冒险。

So it's an adventure out there.

特别有意思。

It's super fun.

我很庆幸自己没早点发现，不然早就陷进去了，根本停不下来。

I I'm glad I didn't find it earlier because I would have just been gone way

你也带莎拉一起去山里跑吗？

Do you take Sarah out on the trails too?

会的。

I do.

当然了。

Yeah.

我们会做一些训练，但她现在的情况，有点像我职业生涯后期那样。

We do some stuff, but she's kinda where I was towards the end of my career.

你要是只在公路上跑步，根本没法从上下山的跑法里恢复过来。

When you're road running, you can't be you can't recover if you're running up and down mountains.

对。

Yeah.

这两者其实挺互补的，我觉得越野跑者最好安排一些速度日，或者山地冲刺、快跑之类的训练，毕竟在山路上跑步是什么情况，大家都懂。

It's it's really the two makes well in the sense that I think I think a trail runner would be better off doing say like a speed day or maybe like hill sprints and some faster running because in the trails, I mean, everyone knows how it is running through trails.

我有时候真想上跑步机，就纯粹让双腿恢复正常节奏。

Your stride's weird and short and different every time and I so I do enjoy sometimes just like hopping on the treadmill.

让我一口气跑六个一英里的平路，把腿的节奏调回来，毕竟我已经用那种怪异的步态跑了整整26个小时了。

Let me just run like six by mile flat and just get my like legs moving normal again because I've been running with this super weird stride for twenty six hours.

确实挺有意思的，这种对配速的感知变化。

It is kind of interesting, the whole pace perception, how it changes.

对吧？

Right?

过一阵子你就特别迟钝，这时候哪怕跑一英里平路，感觉都完全不一样了。

Like, you become very sluggish after a while, and then even a regular road mile just feels feels way different indeed.

是的。

Yeah.

而且在越野跑圈里，每条路线的感觉都差别巨大。

And then, like, even within the trail community, it's like one trail can feel so different than the other.

比如在克雷斯特德比特，你得大量徒步上坡，甚至在非步道上爬行，这跟跑南凯巴布步道完全是两码事。

Like, in Crested Butte, do a ton of power hiking, ton of power hiking off trail, and that is like a totally different skill than running even say South Kaibab.

所以我去南凯巴布跑完，接着就去厄瓜多尔，跑一座火山——那种地方基本只有泰勒·安德鲁斯能跑，其他人根本不行。

So I'll go to South Kaibab, and then I'll go to like Ecuador and run up a volcano there where it's mostly I mean, like Tyler Andrews can run it, but pretty much no one else can.

是的。

Yeah.

那真是特别依赖上坡徒步的体力。

It's a lot of power hiking, know.

每次我一到那儿，哪怕在峡谷里状态再好，也会忍不住感叹：这徒步上坡真不是一回事。

And every time I get out there, even if I'm super fit in the canyon, I'm like, dang, this is different doing the power hiking.

或者在这儿的雪球山，你要是从山背面或者其他路线往上走，也能找到不少适合力量徒步的地方。

Or even up here on snowball, I get on some you get on the backside of the mountain or some different ways up, you can get in some nice power hiking out there too.

但这和跑上13%坡度的路完全是两码事。

But, it's a way different skill than even like running up a 13% grade.

对于那些现在只跑公路、想成为更全面运动员的听众，除了直接冲进大峡谷，你还有什么建议吗？比如加点力量训练，或者试试越野跑之类的？

For those listening who are now only doing road and they wanna become more of a well rounded athlete, implementing strength training, implementing maybe some trail adventures and whatnot, do you have any advice there besides just going balls into the Grand Canyon?

明白。

Okay.

那些建议是给专业选手的吧？

That was for professionals though.

对吧？

Right?

还是说不是？

Or was it not?

我是说给业余跑者的。

This was for recreational runners.

哦，这些是给业余爱好者的吗？

Oh, these are recreational now?

刚才那个是给专业人士的建议。

The other one was the advice for professionals.

明白了。

Okay.

咱们把这一点说清楚。

Let let's clarify that part of it.

那是针对专业人士的，因为他们以为这会很简单，

That was that was the professionals because they think it's gonna be easy and

其实难多了。

it's way

对业余爱好者来说，没那么难。

harder to get.

对业余爱好者来说，没那么难。

For recreational, no.

我建议先从平缓的林间小路开始，跑点轻松的路程。

I would just start like I would just start with easy runs out on the trails flat.

其实呢。

Actually

这段对话可能得加个免责声明。

Might have to put a disclaimer on this conversation.

明白了。

Okay.

其实我觉得，对于那些平时在跑道或公路上高强度训练的跑者来说，跑跑林间小路特别合适。

Actually, I think running out on the trails for easy runs is great for people who are track runners, who are road like high level road runners.

他们与其天天在马路上跑，不如多去山径上放松一下。

I think they're better off to go running trails than to go run on the roads all the time.

我们容易受伤，就是因为反复做同样的动作，一成不变。

I think we get hurt because we lock in the same movement pattern over and over and over again.

那我们平时轻松跑的时候，该去哪儿呢？

But where do we go for our easy runs?

我们通常会走上土路，但那样还是同样的动作模式。

We go onto a dirt road usually, and you have the same movement pattern.

山间小道上有石头，能让你更灵活、更平衡。

The trails like with the rocks, and it makes you more athletic and balanced.

所以我发现，人在山里跑步不容易受伤，可一旦回到跑道或公路上，受伤的风险就大大增加，因为动作太单一了。

So I find that like people won't get hurt as much running out in the mountains, but then you put them on track or road and, like, the likelihood of injury goes way up because the the movement isn't as athletic.

你明白吧？

You know?

就是重复同样的动作。

It's just the same rep.

肌肉老是用同一种方式发力，迟早会疲劳。

Again, muscles get tired when they get used the same way over and over again.

比如我进行力量徒步时，也会故意让肩膀先朝一个方向持续一会儿，再换到另一边，让肌肉稍微放松一下，回头再练的时候感觉就会好很多。

So even like if I'm doing like power hiking, I might even just like face my shoulders one way for a while and then face them the other way just to get my muscles just a little bit of break, and then you'll feel better when you go back to it, you know.

对。

Yeah.

但我认为，对于那些高水平的公路跑者和田径跑者来说，越野跑真的能平衡身体状态。

But I think trails really do balance things out for like those high level road runners and and track runners.

但对于普通爱好者来说，那就从平坦、轻松的跑步开始吧，挑些有趣的步道，你感兴趣的那种。

But for recreational people, yeah, just start like flat, easy runs, fun trails that you wanna go that you're curious about.

去亲自走走看。

Go check them out.

去走上一走。

Go get on

慢慢建立信心。

them.

多练几次，你会更有把握。

Gain some confidence.

没错。

Yeah.

就从简单的开始就好。

Just start oh.

我第一次在克雷斯特德巴特大规模跑山道时，和朋友一起上了鲁比山脊。

So my first, like, big trail run-in Crested Butte, I go up I go up there with my buddy, and we're gonna go up on Ruby Ridge.

那条山脊有十英里长，有些地方特别陡峭，悬空感很强，我根本不知道自己闯了什么祸。

It's a 10 mile ridge, and it's like there's some places on there where it's very knifey and lots of exposure, and I have no idea what I'm getting myself into.

我当时居然穿着公路跑鞋，就是那种普通跑鞋，你知道的。

And I'm up there in gel Keanos, like road shoes, you know.

结果我们要在那些像刀锋一样尖锐的岩石上走。

And we're gonna be on these like little knife y rock formations and stuff.

我上了山脊后，才走了几英里。

And I get myself on this ridge and we're like, we've gone a couple miles.

可前面还远着呢。

So we still got long ways to go.

我背着装备在山脊上爬，脚上还是公路跑鞋，低头一看，这山脊好像没完没了。

And I'm like humping this ridge and I got I got my road shoes on and I looked down this ridge, and it just seems to go forever.

我就这么吭哧吭哧地在山脊上挪着。

And I'm just humping this ridge like this.

我当时就想，天啊，我真的撑不住了。

And I was like, dude, I am out.

于是我和朋友就从山脊上撤了，改走别的路。直到今年秋天，满月那晚，我才重新走了一遍那条山脊。

So me and my friend bailed off the ridge, and we went down a different way, and I didn't make it until now now I did that same ridge by moonlight this last fall, on the fall full moon.

这次还累不累？

Still humping or no humping?

有点累，不过我能应付得了。

It was me a little bit, but I was good with it.

这就对了。

There you go.

是啊。

Yeah.

现在你已经能在一些山路上跟上基利安了。

Well, right now, you can keep up with Killian on some of the trails.

基利安那会儿确实厉害，但他特别聪明。

So Well, what Killian did was super cool, but he was so smart.

他根本一点都没被自我膨胀牵着走。

He freaking was not caught up in his ego at all.

虽然大家可能都在盯着他的路线，琢磨他会不会打破麋鹿横穿的纪录，但至少我跟他一起走的那最后五座山，他完全不是那种人。

So even though like everyone's probably looking his routes and be like, oh, wonder if he's gonna get the record on the elk traverse, the part that I joined him for at least the last five mountains of it.

他就是特别有头脑。

But he's just smart.

他知道，要想明天状态好，今天就不能拼得太狠。

He's like, for me to feel good tomorrow, I can't push it too hard today.

对。

Yeah.

你懂的。

You

明白。

know?

所以我特别佩服他，他的自控力很明显，毕竟那 guy 是个高手。

And so I was I was impressed with like his his self control was evident because you know that he can, I mean, that guy's the master?

他随时都能突然加速冲起来。

He could just freaking start charging whenever you want.

来，我给你露一手，小年轻。

Be like, let me show you something right now young pup.

他就这么直接开干了。

You know, he just go.

但他一次都没这么做过。

But he didn't do that one time.

他做事特别有条不紊。

He was just methodical.

我和他一起待了十二个小时，全程轻松自在，节奏稳当。

I was with him for like twelve hours and the whole time it was fun, casual, methodical.

但他推进得也不慢，毕竟埃尔克横穿路线能花上四天呢。

But moving through it at like a decent pace to where he's not gonna be out there for I mean, elk traverse could take you like four days.

所以从公路跑步转到越野跑和户外探险，对你来说，除了明显要调整节奏、耗时更长之外，还有哪些最大的不同？

So the whole approach for you to go from road running now to trail running and trail adventures, What are, like, some of the biggest differences other than obviously, you have to change the pace, like, the you're out there for much longer.

比如营养这方面，你花了不少时间去了解吗？

Like, things like nutrition and stuff, did that take you a while to get into?

是的。

Like Yeah.

我还在不断学习关于营养的知识。

I'm still learning a lot about nutrition.

比如说，我们有个设备可以贴在心率带上面，能测量你出汗的量。

I'll probably take, like we have this, like, sensor you can put on your heart rate strap, and it measures your sweat loss Mhmm.

直接从皮肤上测。

Off your skin.

现在我们就在试用这类东西。

So we're kind of playing with stuff like that right now.

说实话，我对这些东西挺有疑虑的，得确认它给的数据真的靠谱，因为我戴的那块手表，数据就不准。

Honestly, I've kind of trust trust issues with a lot of this stuff and make sure that, like, you're actually getting good readings off it because, like, I have, like, this wristwatch does not give me accurate readings.

我在峡谷里跑步的时候低头一看，显示心率居然到了200。

I'll be out there running in the Canyon, and I look down and it says my heart rate is 200.

我戴上胸带一测，心率是一百三十五。

And I'm and I put a chest strap on, it's like one thirty five.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

你得搞清楚你看到的数据到底代表什么，明白吧。

You know, so it's you gotta make sure that what you're seeing, you know what it is, you know.

但说实话，我最大的改变是，我不得不学会信任自己，这以前是我从没做过的事。

But yeah, the biggest difference is that I have had to learn to trust myself in a way that I never had to trust myself before.

比如你一个人在外面走路线，孤身一人在山脊上，半夜里迷了路，你该怎么办？

So like when you're out in doing these routes, and you're by yourself, and you're on a ridge, and it's the middle of the night, and you're trying to find your way, and you're getting turned around, like, are you gonna do?

这时候慌张有用吗？

Is it gonna help me to freak out right now?

你打算一个人开个恐慌派对吗？

You wanna have a freak out party by yourself?

确实如此。

It really is.

对吧？

Right?

你得保持冷静。

You have to stay calm.

没错。

Uh-huh.

必须得这样。

You have to.

我真的一边走一边跟自己说话。

And, like, I've literally talked out loud to myself.

这么说听起来可能有点怪。

It sounds strange to say that like this.

是的。

Yeah.

但那时候，你刚和凯莉·安待了几天，我这边刚和他分开，就赶上一场雷暴逼近。

But when because you were with Kelly Anne a few days after I was with him, and there was a lightning storm rolling in.

他在那边，我在这边，只能躲在几块石头底下，眼睁睁看着雷暴越来越近。

And he was on the other side, and I was here, and I was just waiting, like, hidden under some rocks while a lightning storm is coming in.

我当时真的一边对自己说：好了，冷静点。

And literally, I had to tell myself, okay.

你身上就一件T恤和短裤。

You're in a t shirt and short.

赶紧去包里把夹克拿出来穿上。

Just go into your bag and grab your jacket right now.

别搞出低体温症之类的事来。

Make sure you don't get hypothermia or whatever.

刚才我们聊到专注和觉知的时候，其实也是这个道理。

Like, and it's but you're so present and talking about awareness what we did earlier.

我觉得这就是越野跑的魅力所在。

I think that's the beauty of trail running.

这就是越野跑的魅力所在

That's the beauty of

那时候你必须高度警觉，就会出现那种超越意识的时刻

and the that's when you have to be so alert that that's when you have these moments that transcend your consciousness gets transcended.

我和基利安聊过这事，他说他在这儿也经历过，感觉像飘在自己身体上方，看着自己在做那些事

And I was talking about this with Killian, and he's like, dude, I've had these moments out here where it's like I was above my body watching myself do this stuff.

他说他确实有这种体验，但只有在特别危险的时候才会出现

And he's like, I get them, but they only come when it's freaking real sketchy.

要是现在基利安都觉得紧张，那我可不想跟他一起走，哪怕只是有点不安都不行

And for him to get sketched out now, I don't wanna be with him if he's even like mildly sketched out.

因为我们刚完成穿越和终点段，他还跟别人说，天哪

Because we did the traverse and finish and he was like telling people, like, dude.

不

No.

其实也没那么糟

It's it's not bad.

别担心，就是有点吓人，但你没问题的。

Like crazy, you'll be fine.

我当时就想着，这哥们儿，我用GoPro拍了他，他背着背包，身子往前倾，拼命往上爬，底下就是个窄 ledge，一掉下去就没命了，真的。

And I was like, dude, this guy, I took a video of him on a GoPro, and he's like leaning over this thing with the backpack on and like pulling himself up, and it's just a ledge where if he falls, he's done, dude.

但说到底，你信不信自己？

But that's again, like, do you trust yourself?

你得靠一次次走出去，在自己能应付的范围内经历那些时刻，然后慢慢往上走——当然，得聪明点，知道吧。

And you trust yourself by going out there and having those moments at a level you can handle, and then just go at the level that you're ready to go out out there and be smart, of course, you know.

昨天在塞多纳，我居然自己带头攀爬一条路线，其实我根本不懂多少攀岩技巧，可我还是上去了。

But there's I mean, I was freaking lead climbing up a route yesterday in Sedona, and I don't even know that much about climbing, but I'm like going up to it.

我当时就想，行吧。

I'm like, okay.

这难度也太低了吧。

Like this is super easy.

一百次里一百次都能轻松搞定，可现在就是觉得特别怕，因为下面空荡荡的，啥都没有，也没人能接住我。

Like you could do this a 100 out of a 100 times, but it seems really scary right now because down there, there's nothing but air and no one to catch me.

是的

Yeah.

对

Yeah.

我要是摔下去，腿肯定得在这块石头上断了。

And I'm gonna freaking break my leg on that rock.

我不会死，但要是摔了，腿肯定得在这块石头上断，你懂的。

I'm not gonna die, but I'm gonna break my leg on that rock if I fall, you know?

可我老想着摔下去，这有啥用呢？

But does it help me to think about falling?

你知道的。

You know?

对

Yeah.

你的精力都耗到哪儿去了？

Where does your energy go?

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

我当时已经准备好面对接下来的部分了。

And it's I I was ready for the rest.

所以你就干脆说，好吧。

So you're just like, okay.

你之所以会分心，是因为那个念头背后有情绪在驱动，而这种情绪就是恐惧。

This is where you you're entertaining a distraction thought because there's an emotion tied to it, and that emotion is fear.

先把情绪抽出来，再客观看待这个念头本身——有时候它其实是在提醒你，该听它的，该退回来，因为你还没准备好，明白吗？

So you take out that emotion, and then you just analyze that thought for what it is because sometimes it's leading you the right way, and you need to listen to it and back out of that situation because you're not ready, you know?

是的。

Yeah.

你不是出去找死，但你确实需要学会信任自己，相信自己能度过那些时刻。

Like, you're not going out there to die, but you do wanna learn to develop a trust in yourself and that you can work through those moments.

你就是会去那些让你站在边缘的时刻，你知道的吧？

Like, you kinda go out there for those moments where you're kinda on the edge, you know?

你走到那道山脊上时，早在到达之前就已经想了几个小时。

And you get on that ridge and you're like, you're thinking about it for hours before you get there.

终于到了，你深吸一口气，好了，开始吧。

You finally get there, you're like, deep breath, here we go.

而我最喜欢在这些时刻做的事，就是心里默默说：这正是我最享受的部分。

And then what my favorite thing to do right for those moments, I'm always like, this is my favorite part.

是的。

Yeah.

有意思的是，你说基利安现在所处的境界，完全是另一个层次。

And the interesting thing is you're saying, like, Killian is on a whole another level where that is.

对吧？

Right?

而对你现在来说，也正站在刀锋之上。

And for you right now, that's also on a knife's edge.

对有些人来说，这就像跑人生第一场马拉松，或者第一次跑五公里，那种从未体验过的陌生感。

For some people that is towing the line of their first marathon, towing the line of the first five k that feels they've never been there before.

一切都是未知的，谁也不知道接下来会发生什么。

It is unknown, and we don't know what's gonna happen.

从训练时的积累到真正上场的那一刻，中间有个飞跃，但正是这种时刻，让人感觉真正活着。

And there's a leap from what you've done in training to what's gonna happen, but that's also where you feel alive.

没错。

Exactly.

那种极致的愉悦，也正是在这里。

That's also where the bliss is at.

所以我们总是被改变所吸引。

So we we're drawn to changing things.

对。

Yeah.

所以我觉得，正因如此，连上帝都得重新定义。

So that's where, like, I feel like God has to change.

因为如果上帝不变，我们就会觉得无聊，那它也就不再是上帝了。

Because if God didn't change, we'd get bored, and we it wouldn't it wouldn't be God anymore.

你懂的。

You know?

对。

So Mhmm.

上帝的无限广阔是好事，因为我们天生就被这种特质吸引。

The the ever expansiveness of God is is good because we're drawn to that.

你懂的。

You know?

但到了那个阶段，你又会想，我不确定自己喜不喜欢待在这里。

But then you don't want to it's kinda like when then you get to that point, you're like, I don't know if I like it here.

是啊。

Yeah.

有点吓人。

It's kinda scary.

你知道的。

You know?

然后你得自己开导自己，跟自己对话，坐下来好好想想。

And then you gotta kind of coach yourself through it, talk to yourself through it, sit down.

我有个朋友，他喜欢坐下来吃点零食，然后找个高处，静静地冥想，因为对我来说，这样就能把恐惧全都赶走。

My friend, he likes to sit down, have a snack, and just like, I like to get to high places and then meditate in them because that to me, that removes all the fear.

对。

Yeah.

如果我能坐在某个地方，其实我自己也不太喜欢高处。

If I can be sitting someplace because I don't like heights myself.

我一直都有点恐高，不过我在这方面下了不少功夫。

Like, I've always been, like, slightly scared of heights, but I've worked on it a ton.

对我帮助特别大的一件事就是，故意去那些让我觉得不舒服的地方，然后坐着不动，慢慢在那里找到平静。

And one thing that's really helped me is, like like, be on places that make me feel uncomfortable and then just sit there and then find peace there.

等你真的做到了，就会感觉好像已经把那种恐惧给克服了。

And then once I've done that, you almost feel like you've kinda, like, conquered that.

你把舒适区的边界推到了一个新的高度。

You moved your barrier of comfort Mhmm.

提升到了另一个层次。

To another level.

我一直在用Somnos Lab的睡眠降温系统来改善睡眠质量，而真正的恢复其实发生在睡眠中。

I've been using the Somnos Lab sleep cooling system to improve the quality of my sleep, and sleep is really where the recovery happens.

你再怎么拼命训练都没用。

You can train hard.

饮食再怎么健康也没用。

You can eat well.

就算所有事都做对了，

You can do everything right,

但如果你的睡眠没调整好，那就缺了最关键的一环。

but if your sleep isn't dialed in, you're missing a big piece.

它是怎么起作用的呢？

Here's how it works.

这是一个温控垫，放在床垫上、床单底下，旁边有个小主机，通过循环水来调节垫子的温度，让你能精准设定自己最喜欢的睡床温度。

This is a temperature controlled pad that sits on top of your mattress under the sheet, and there's a small base unit next to the bed that circulates water throughout the pad so you can heat or cool your bed to the exact temperatures that you want.

对我来说，睡得凉快一点真的有很大帮助。

For me, sleeping cooler has made a big difference.

我更快入睡，睡得更久，早上醒来也感觉恢复得更好。

I fall asleep faster, I stay asleep longer, and I wake up feeling more recovered.

我特别喜欢的是双区温控功能。

What I really like is the dual zone control.

如果你怕冷，伴侣怕热，你们俩可以各自设定不同的温度。

So if you sleep cold and your partner sleeps hot, you can both set your own temperatures.

安装特别简单。

The setup is super simple.

把垫子铺在床上，加满水，插上电，就能用了。

You put the pad on the bed, fill it with water, plug it in, and you're good to go.

不用搞复杂的安装，也不用付任何订阅费。

No more complicated installs and no subscriptions.

去看看 somnoslab.com。

Check out somnoslab.com.

那是 somnuslab.com，使用代码 F-L-O，下单立减百分之十。

That is somnuslab.com, and use the code FLO, f l o, to receive 10% off your order.

我简介里也有链接，可以点开看看。

See also the link in my description.

好的。

Okay.

咱们聊一下电解质吧，明天我们要跑大峡谷。

Let's talk about electrolytes for a minute because tomorrow, we're running the Grand Canyon.

全程五十公里。

We're running 50 k.

后半段热得简直要命。

It's gonna be scorch your heart towards the later part.

你之前给我发消息，说对，没错。

You and I were texting, and you're like, yeah.

得赶紧补足电解质，不然明天早上眼睛肯定肿得厉害。

Let's get that dose of electrolytes over to a point that my eyes are gonna be puffy in the morning.

你平时跑长距离的时候，电解质是怎么安排的？

Tell me more about your electrolyte strategy on longer days.

对。

Right.

这个我研究得挺多的，很多经验其实来自健美圈，因为他们特别注重补水，力量型运动员也一样。

This one I played with a lot, and again, a lot of this comes from bodybuilding because those guys are super into hydration and strength athletes are super in hydration as well.

因为只要稍微脱水，健身房里的力量表现就会明显下滑。

Because if you're a little bit dehydrated, your power goes down significantly in the gym.

所以第一条原则就是：别脱水的时候去举铁。

So like rule number one is like, don't lift dehydrated.

真的吗？

Really?

我以前都不知道。

I didn't know.

你肯定会

You're gonna get

受伤或者出问题的

hurt or injured or

我练的时候真的会口渴。

I got thirsty lifting actually.

对。

Yeah.

你可别这样。

You don't want you no.

是吗？

No?

多喝点水？

Drink more?

对。

Yeah.

多喝点水。

Drink more water.

好的。

Alright.

我每天早上一醒来就习惯喝20盎司的电解质水，然后才喝一大杯咖啡，这样身体才能真正吸收电解质。

Like, I always say so when I start my day, first thing, 20 ounces of electrolyte water down the hatch every day, and then I have a huge coffee after that, but now I got electrolytes in my system.

现在水是留在身体里的，不是一喝就排出去了。

I'm holding water, not just passing it through.

是的。

Yeah.

如果你光喝白水，我发现根本留不住，转眼就尿掉了，两小时后还是觉得干巴巴的。

Because if you just get up and just drink water, I noticed I just freaking pee it right back out quick, and I still feel like dry like two hours later.

这到底是怎么回事？

Like, what the heck?

我明明喝了这么多水啊。

I just drank all this water.

但你怎么摄入才是关键，所以得搭配电解质一起喝。

But how you take it in is important, so having electrolytes to go into it.

我在这上面确实学了不少，以前我们去山里，尤其是在科罗拉多，到处都是水，基本就靠过滤器解决。

But I've had to learn a lot with this because I'd usually, when we go out in the mountains, we just use filters a lot when we're in Colorado because there's water everywhere.

根本不用带水瓶。

So you don't even bring a bottle.

带根吸管就行，直接在小溪里喝就行。

You just bring a straw and you just drink out of, like, creeks or whatnot.

那感觉简直太棒了。

It's freaking awesome.

我就喜欢这一部分。

I love that part of it.

但你要是这么喝，根本摄取不到电解质。

But you're not getting electrolytes that way if you're doing that.

那你得吃盐片。

So you gotta take salt pills.

是的。

Yeah.

几年前我和吉姆·沃尔斯利在峡谷里跑步时，他就跟我说：你最好随身带点电解质。

So I was running with Jim Walmsley in the Canyon a couple years back, and he's like, dude, you should maybe take some electrolytes with you.

我当时就说，

And I was like,

哦，对。

oh, yeah.

这主意真不错。

That's a great

确实很有道理。

idea actually.

从那以后，

Now Since

我们身边都是能让我们学习的人。

we surround ourselves by all the people who we learn from.

没错。

Right.

对。

Yeah.

他可懂了，那家伙天天在峡谷里跑，从小在凤凰城长大的，特别会应付高温天气。

Oh, and he knows because that guy freaking runs in the canyon all the time and grew up in Phoenix or he knows how to run-in hot conditions.

要是真想学怎么在高温下跑步，直接去凤凰城，找那些经验老到的人聊聊就明白了。

If you wanna learn from someone about running the heat, like, just go down to Phoenix and talk to people have it dialed down there, you know.

不过说到脱水，峡谷真是我见过最能把人晒干的地方。

But the electrolytes are the Canyon, I've never been a place where it dries you out more in the Canyon.

我从厄瓜多尔来的时候。

I will come from Ecuador.

半升水跑五个小时都绰绰有余。

I can do a five hour run on a half a liter bottle fine.

一点抽筋都没有。

Not even cramp up at all.

在峡谷里跑二十公里，真的会抽筋。

Run 20 in the canyon cramping dude.

简直像要把你烤熟了。

Like it's it cooks you.

热浪在岩壁间来回反弹，你被困在烤箱正中间，热得不行。

It's like the the razor bouncing off the walls, and you're in the middle of this oven, and it just freaking roasts the crap out of you.

所以电解质得补足，但也不能补过头。

So you wanna make sure your electrolytes are heavy, but not too heavy.

我跑过四次 rim trim，每次都在调整电解质的量。

So when I did rim, trim, trim four times, I kind of messed with electrolytes every time.

第一次我根本没补，就靠吃糖果撑着。

And so my first time, I don't think I took any and I was just I just eat candy when I'm out there.

吃的糖果可不少。

A lot of candy too.

我每小时会带大约四百大卡的糖果。

Like I bring like 400 calories per hour of candy with me.

就是这样。

There you go.

确实吃了好多糖果。

It's a lot of candy.

但那时候我也没脱水，毕竟跑得不算太猛。

But So in that time, I I didn't get dehydrated but I also wasn't running that hard.

下一次我跑得更用力一点，多补了些电解质，感觉好多了。

The next time I ran a little bit harder and took a little bit more electrolytes, fell a little better.

再下一次我拼尽全力跑，换装也飞快，就想着看能多快完成。

And the next time I ran as hard as I could, quick transitions, dude, I was just like, see how fast you can do it, know.

那次表现最好，大概八小时不到的时间里，我吃了四片盐片。

And that was my best one, and I think I took like four salt tablets out there over the course of about just shy of eight hours.

才四片？

Was about Only four?

对。

Yeah.

差不多就是这样。

Something like that.

所以摄入量并不高。

So it wasn't high.

这点量可真不多。

That's not much.

但下一次我跟朋友一起去，带了很多电解质片，把饮料冲得特别浓，因为有些地方可以补充清水，你就随身带着粉剂就行。

But then the next time, I went with a buddy and I took a bunch of electrolyte tablets, made my drinks like super concentrated because there's, you know, places you can fill Yeah.

可以加粉剂进去。

Clean water with so you can take powder with you.

所以我带了很多粉剂，一路不停地喝，回来以后我就说，哎呀。

So I had a bunch of powder, and then I was just drink, and I came back and I was like, so

你整个人都肿了。

swollen up, dude.

你肿得更厉害了。

You're even more swollen.

是的。

Yeah.

但奇怪的是，你明明肿得厉害，水分却还是进不去。

But it's weird because you can get all swollen, and then it's like still not getting into you.

你还是脱水，整个人都快炸了。

You're still dehydrated, and you're freaking all Yeah.

所以那次我真是过头了，结果喝得太多了。

So anyway, that took it too far that time and then I have way too much.

不过我觉得，根据环境不同，比如在峡谷里，我大概每小时需要500到1000毫克的钠。

But I think for depending on the conditions, like looking at like five hundred milligrams of sodium to a thousand per hour for me roughly in the canyon.

所以我希望能摄入三到四份。

So I wanna get like, you know, three or four servings in.

但我觉得关键还是看你出发前的状态有多补水。

But I think a lot of it depends on how hydrated you are

开始之前。

Going in.

刚开始的时候。

Starting out.

我觉得对于在听的任何人来说，我也曾经这样做过。

And I think even for anyone listening here, I've I've done that myself too.

前一天，尤其是当天早上，好好用电解质补水，真的会有差别。

The day before, like, leading into it, the morning like, the day before, the morning of, like, properly hydrating with electrolytes, it makes a difference.

确实如此。

Like Yeah.

因为如果你没做好补水，人们从南边爬上凯巴布峡谷时就会感觉特别糟糕。

Because when you don't have hydration going, that's why people feel so terrible coming up south, Kaibab.

你的腿肯定因为下坡累得够呛，尤其是你不常走这种路的时候，再加上脱水。

I think it's I mean, your legs are beat up from the descending for sure, especially if you're not used to it, But then you get dehydrated.

挺奇怪的。

It's weird.

有时候很难分清到底是啥让你这么累。

It's sometimes hard to tell what's making you tired.

是肌肉累了，还是脱水了，或者两者都有，你也知道。

Is it your muscles are tired or they're dehydrated or it's probably some combination of it too, you know.

但只要你解决了脱水的问题，跑步状态和整体感觉都会好很多。

But if you can remove the dehydration part, then you'll definitely be running way better and just feeling way better too.

奇怪的是，有时候在户外你根本不会觉得口渴。

Like, it's funny that you don't get sometimes thirsty out there.

明明该喝水的时候，你却不一定能靠感觉来判断。

I feel like when you should, you can't necessarily just, like, listen to your you know?

你得主动知道该怎么做。

You gotta know.

你的大脑知道接下来会发生什么。

Your mind knows what's coming.

但你的身体不知道。

Your body doesn't.

对。

Mhmm.

你明白吧。

You know?

所以你得提前做好准备，确保身体得到它需要的东西。

So you gotta prepare it for make sure you give it what it needs.

我想再多聊聊力量训练，因为我个人真的很感兴趣，最近也更想坚持做下去。

I wanna talk about strength training some more because I do personally, I'm really fascinated by it, and I'm I'm more interested in doing it more consistent lately.

但我知道你从职业公路跑者转型到真正开始举重，走过了一整段历程。

But I know you have gone through that whole journey of being a professional road runner to really getting into lifting.

我觉得人们开始力量训练的原因各有不同。

I think there's different different reasons that people get into strength training.

首先，没错，它确实能让你跑得更好。

Like, first of all, yes, it can make you an overall better runner.

而且随着年龄增长，肌肉会自然流失，从健康角度来说，这很重要。

It can it's obviously, like, as you age, you lose muscle mass, and it's it's healthy from that perspective.

对我而言，它还带有一种心理层面的意义——生活中总有起起落落，会经历不同的阶段。

For me, it was also like a mental component where sometimes life happens and you have highs and lows and there's different stages.

我发现力量训练对提升心理韧性也有极大的帮助。

And I found strength training to tremendously help with mental strength too.

对。

Mhmm.

我想知道，你什么时候开始认真投入力量训练的？当时是出于什么考虑？

I'm wondering when you started going hard on the strength training component, what was your reasoning behind it?

我觉得我开始做力量训练，是因为我内心最渴望的就是这个。

I think the reason why I went to it is because I was craving it the most.

说来有点奇怪，我以前根本不喜欢举重。

And and it's weird because I never liked lifting.

我以前总是匆匆走过力量训练区，根本没把心思放在上面，主要是因为那时候我每天都累得不行，你知道的。

I was always the guy who's like, hurry through the weight room, and I my heart really wasn't in it mainly because I was just super tired all the time, you know.

但后来我的身体好像在说：你得给我点不一样的东西了。

But it was like my body was like, you gotta give me the opposite of what you've been giving me.

而对我来说，那种不一样的东西就是力量训练。

And for me, that was strength training.

所以，我觉得那会儿就是身体在向我发出需求。

So, yeah, I think it was it was just like my body was craving.

但另一方面，我的性格就是需要挑战。

But also, my personality is one where I need challenge.

如果没有一座山挡在面前，没有点什么要攻克的东西，我就觉得不对劲，也不一定非得是挑战吧。

So if I don't have something, a mountain in front of me, a challenge, something I need to be I don't know if it needs to be a challenge necessarily.

但必须是我愿意倾尽全力去追求的事，你懂的。

It needs to be something that I'm going after with as much as I can bring to the table, you know.

所以它可以是各种各样的事，但在那个阶段，它就变成了举重。

So it could be a lot of different things, but at that season, it it morphed into weightlifting.

从跑步转到了举重。

It went from running to weightlifting.

那时候我就想，行吧。

It was like, okay.

现在我要好好把它学透。

Now let me learn as much.

学东西本身也很有趣。

It's fun to learn too.

学新东西总是特别有意思。

It's always fun to learn new things.

我跟一个朋友聊过这事。

I was talking to buddy about this.

他最近特别迷上塞多纳的峡谷探险，简直爱死了。

He's getting super into canyoneering in Sedona, and he's freaking just loving it.

你知道的。

You know?

学各种绳结、研究装备，还有路线之类的。

Like, learning all the knots and learning all the gear No.

都是些挺有意思的东西。

It's routes and all that stuff,

你知道的。

you know?

但这又是个全新的挑战。

But it's it's a new challenge again.

是啊。

Yeah.

我看了下数据，你之前从127磅涨到了将近190到195磅。

Just looking at some numbers, you went from one twenty seven pounds, then went to a high of, like, close to one nineties to one ninety fives.

那是我们上次录的时候的情况。

That's when we recorded last time.

后来你开始多跑山路、多出去探险，体重就又慢慢降下来了。

And then you started trail running and adventuring more, and you kind of came down a little bit again.

对。

Yeah.

我现在又回落到165磅了。

Now I'm back down to, one sixty five.

我膝盖还希望我能再轻10磅呢。

And, my knees would like to go another 10 pounds lighter.

你现在是一百六十五磅了。

You're at one sixty five now.

这挺有意思的。

That's interesting.

我现在比你重。

I'm heavier than you right now.

是吗？

Are you?

你身高五英尺十英寸吧。

So you're five ten.

我六英尺。

I'm six.

不过你的体重秤上显示我只有五英尺六英寸。

Or, like, according to your machine, I'm five six.

说到这个

Talking about

你有多高。

how tall you are.

你没必要聊这个。

You don't need to get into that.

不用了。

No.

但确实挺有意思的。

But an an interesting one.

比如说，从

Like, so from

从脚开始。

from foot.

就拿我自己的经历来说，刚开始跑步之前，有一阵子我喝酒喝得挺凶，体重差不多有180斤。

From my from my own journey, like, before I started running, I was like, at some point, I was about one eighty when I was drinking quite a bit.

对。

Mhmm.

我不喝酒了，开始规律跑步，后来体重降到大概一百四十磅，那就是我的比赛体重。

Stopped drinking, started running consistent, and it came down to, like, my race weight at some point was about one forty.

那时候真的瘦得不行。

And that was skinny.

开始有人问我，嘿，

Like, I started getting people to ask me, like, hey.

你是不是生病了？

Are you sick?

你知道，当你接近比赛体重的时候，

Like and then, you know, you're close to race weight.

嗯，

Like

是啊。

Yeah.

当你开始看起来不太对劲的时候。

When you start, like, sick.

然后

And then

这就说明你真的到位了。

That's how you know you're there.

太好了。

Great.

不过到了某个时候，我自然而然发现，当我体重接近一百五十五磅左右的时候，精力明显更好了。

At at some point though, I, like, naturally noticed I was feeling better energy wise, like, once I was closer to one fifty five, like, somewhere over there.

但最近几个月，我开始更加注意多吃一点。

But then even in recent months, I started paying much closer attention to eating more.

随着训练越来越规律，你我也聊过一些，就是有意识地多摄入一些热量，留意吃的东西，开始规律地举重。

And as I started training more consistent, and you and I have talked to some extent about this, like, just deliberately eating some more calories, like watching what you're eating and starting to lift consistent.

是的。

Yeah.

从年初到现在，体重从一百五十五磅涨到接近一百七十磅，真是没想到，只要保持规律，再加上多关注营养，变化就这么明显。

And all of a sudden, literally from earlier in the year to now, from one fifty five to close to one seventy, it's like wild how with some consistency and, like, focusing additionally on on nutrition, it's like Yep.

你现在进入最有趣阶段了。

You're in the fun phase.

这真的是个特别有意思的阶段。

That is a really fun phase.

确实如此。

It really is.

唐，你刚开始练举重的第一年，甚至前两年，就像蜜月期一样，因为你的身体会疯狂吸收营养，进步特别快。

Don, the first, like, year of lifting or even two years, it's like the honeymoon phase, dude, because your body's just gonna eat stuff up, and you're gonna just put on you're gonna get way better.

你会变得强很多。

You're gonna get way stronger.

你会感觉好很多。

You're gonna feel way better.

你会看到明显的进步。

You're gonna see rapid growth.

我以前总说，三年，兄弟。

And it and everyone I was always like, three years, dude.

在我心里，咱们走着瞧吧。

We'll see about that in my mind.

但对我来说，数据有点乱了，因为那三年我一直在300磅左右徘徊，虽然一直在进步，但增重速度慢了下来，大概每两个半月才长两磅多。

But for me, the data got confusing because what happened, I think, is I got to ride around that 300 that three year period, and everything was like, I was getting better, but it's starting to be like by like two and a half pounds.

我当时想，能涨一磅半就不错了。

I was like, get out the one and a half pounds Yeah.

我练着练着，

Play I

就能达到。

could get.

我快摸到自己的上限了，试过各种训练方法，也试过增重。

And I got I was getting to the upper end kind of I think what I could get to because I tried a lot of different training philosophies, philosophies, tried getting fatter too.

说实话，想变强，干脆胖一点也行。

I mean, if you wanna get strong, you can just also just get fat.

对。

Mhmm.

我的意思是，说实话，如果我不增重，根本不可能变强。

I mean, and and also, I will say like I was never getting stronger if I wasn't putting on weight.

我变强，全靠增重。

I was only getting stronger.

只有增重了，我才真有进步。

I was only making gains if I was putting on weight.

对。

Mhmm.

如果

If

我跑步的时候，体重肯定在掉，力量也上不去。

I was running, I was probably losing weight, and I was not getting stronger.

那时候就只能尽量保持力量不下滑。

And then you're just trying to kinda maintain strength.

你懂的。

You know?

对啊，这其实我们刚才也在聊这个。

Well, and that's what we were talking about earlier too.

对吧？

Right?

那力量训练的目的是什么呢？

Like, what's the purpose of the strength training?

从某个角度来说，它可能是为了辅助跑步。

Like, from one perspective, it can be to, like, supplement your running.

对一些人来说，它的目的就是大幅提升力量，甚至增重。

For some, it can really be to, like, gain significant strength and, like, just gain weight.

没错。

And Yeah.

你可以用各种不同的方式来做力量训练，

There's a variety of different ways you can do it for

当然也可以为了别的目标。

it too.

我的情况是这样，

Now mine is like, okay.

我想在下坡跑步时膝盖不疼。

So I wanna run downhill without my knees hurting.

所以我打算做负重台阶下降训练。

So let me do weighted step downs.

再做脚跟垫高的前蹲、壶铃前蹲之类的，尽量把大腿肌肉练得超强。

Let me do heel elevated front squats, goblets, front squats, you know, and try to develop to make my quads freaking as strong as crap.

我记得以前在大峡谷跑步的时候，正好在练重量训练，所以一点不酸，因为我一直在做超重的前蹲和深蹲，腿够结实。

You know, I think that's why like when I was running down the Grand Canyon and I was lifting, I didn't get sore because I was doing freaking heavy front squat, heavy squat, and my legs were strong.

身体已经准备好应对了。

They're ready for that.

一点都没被折腾坏。

And they didn't beat me up.

从峡谷出来后，我从来没这么轻松过，那时候我练得最重、最拼。

That was the least beat up I've ever been coming out of the canyons was I was lifting the heaviest and the hardest.

是的

Yeah.

确实会大大改变跑步时的感觉。

And it does, like, it does make a massive difference in how it feels.

尤其是爬坡的时候，跑步会轻松很多。

Like, it it definitely makes a running easier in particular like hills.

哦

Oh,

那短跑呢？

and sprints?

短跑最棒了。

Sprints are the best.

如果你能放开步幅，有那个灵活性，练得多了、身体更重了，反而跑短跑特别爽。

If if you can open up your stride, like, if you have the mobility to do that, when you've been lifting a lot and you're heavier, it feels good to sprint.

我以前从来没体验过这种感觉。

Like, I never had experienced anything like that.

我永远都忘不了，那次和家人在海滩上，我根本没在跑步。

I I'll never forget because we're out on the beach with my family, and I I wasn't running at all.

我只是拼命地举铁，练到极限。

I was just lifting my brains out as hard as I could.

你知道吗，到了海滩，看到海水退去，沙滩变得又湿又硬，特别适合跑步的时候？

But you know how it is when you get out on the beach and you see the the water come up on the sand and it gets all hard and perfect for running on?

我看着那片地面，心里就想：天啊，我得冲过去跑一趟。

I was seeing it do this, and I was like, dude, I gotta go out there.

于是我冲了出去，沿着水边跑，故意躲着浪花，不让水打湿脚。

And so I go out there and you just start, you know, running through the waves trying to not let them touch your feet, you know, along the waterline.

哦，那可真有意思。

Oh, that's fun.

是啊。

Yeah.

我就这么开始跑了，没过多久我就

And so I started doing that, and pretty soon I was

天哪，老兄。

like, oh, dang, dude.

这感觉真棒。

This feels good.

我当时

And I

我在那儿跑了整整三十分钟，拼命地冲刺。

I was out there for like thirty minutes just sprinting like crazy.

第二天，我的大腿后肌疼得要命。

And the next day, my hamstrings were exploding.

我当时就想，

I was like, why

我干嘛要这么做？

did I do that?

但那种感觉太爽了，我从来没感受过双腿有这么大的力量。

But it felt so good because I wasn't used to I'd never felt that much power in my legs ever.

不过我觉得我犯了个错误，就是我回想起第一次聊跑步力量训练时的几个要点，一直记在心里。

I think the mistake though, like, that I even caught myself up because several things from my first conversation about strength training for running, I kept that in mind.

比如你特别提到的，做力量训练的时候，尤其是刚开始，要高次数、轻重量。

So one was, like you have mentioned in particular, when you're doing the strength exercise, especially in the beginning, go high reps, lower weight.

先把动作做标准，然后慢慢积累感觉。

Start doing the exercise correctly, and then just build momentum with that.

练完一组，还能再轻松做十次才对，就是这种感觉。

And then over time, like, finish finish a set and still be able to go 10 more if you had to kind of.

对吧？

Right?

这真的很有帮助，特别是刚开始的时候，能让我更快上手。

And so that really helped, especially at the beginning, just getting familiar.

因为很多动作我根本不知道该怎么弄，所以主要是慢慢熟悉起来。

Because a lot of these exercises, I didn't know what I was doing really, and so just becoming more familiar with it.

没错。

Yeah.

而且你的肌肉根本还没适应，比如怎么把重量从这儿稳稳地放下来。

And you're not your muscle's not even used to like, oh, how do I take the weight down from here?

我以前从来没做过这种动作。

I've never had to do this.

如果你只是猛地冲进去做动作，身体肯定会反应：等等，这是要干嘛？

And if like, all you just try to like pop in there and do the movement, and your body's like, woah, what are we doing here?

对。

Yeah.

刚开始练的时候，你得去感受身体在不同姿势下的状态——哪些是有力的姿势，哪些是薄弱的姿势，明白吗？

You wanna like, when you're first getting into it, you wanna feel how your body is where is it at when it's in strong positions compared to weak positions, You know?

慢慢地，这甚至会变成姿势的问题。

And then it even becomes like a posture thing.

比如坐着的时候，你的肩膀是不是往外耸？

It's like when you're sitting, do you sit with your shoulder out?

有时候我开车时也会发现自己这样，然后马上意识到：哎，我这姿势不对啊。

Sometimes I'll catch myself driving like this sometimes, and I'm like, what are you doing?

是的

Yeah.

对

Yeah.

没错

Yeah.

把肩膀放回正确的位置，你知道的。

Like, get that shoulder back where it's supposed to be, you know?

这样会改善你的姿势。

So it it changes your posture.

这甚至会影响你对自己的感觉。

That changes even how you feel about yourself.

是的

Yeah.

对

Yeah.

从那以后，说实话，我有时候真的特别期待去突破个人最佳成绩。

And then I think from there on, I'm not gonna lie, I've gotten really excited sometimes to start hitting PRs.

从那以后，我最近第一次觉得必须休息一天，甚至得休息两天，因为我平时都是周一、周三、周五练。

And from there, I've also recently, for the first time, I really felt like I had to take a day off that or, like, I had to take two days off because normally, do Monday, Wednesday, Friday.

所以我决定先把周三的训练暂时放一放。

And I was like, let's actually hold off on the Wednesday sessions for a little bit.

我的肘部开始有点不对劲。

Something started feeling off in my elbow a bit.

我觉得现在真没必要硬撑。

I was like, I just don't wanna push through it right now.

对。

Yeah.

这已经不只是想不想的问题了。

And And that's more than want to.

还是先稍微退一步吧。

Back off a little bit there.