我有一些问题要问那些想竞选加州的民主党人

它还让房主不愿意卖房，因为一旦出售，就会失去实际上的税收优惠。

It pushes against home owner selling because it sells to lose what is effectively a tax break.

我知道Prop 13很受欢迎。

I know prop 13 is popular.

我坐在这儿说这些当然容易。

It's easy for me to sit here and talk about it.

但你说过愿意做那些不讨好的事来解决住房危机。

But you say you're willing to do the unpopular things to fix the housing crisis.

那为什么Prop 13的改革不算一个？

Why isn't Prop 13 reform one of them?

首先，我当初就没投Prop 13。

First of all, I didn't vote for Prop 13.

自1978年起，我就公开反对Prop 13了。

I'm on record opposing Prop 13 since 1978.

你去查一查就知道了。

Look it up.

我是不是误解了你的竞选网站？

Am I misreading your campaign site?

嗯，

Well,

我确实认为我们应该控制房产税，但让我解释一下。

I do believe that we need to hold property taxes down, but let me explain.

首先，斯泰耶说得对。

First of all, Steyer is right.

他提到的这种现象叫做土地使用的财政化。

What he was talking about is called the fiscalization of land use.

由于第13号提案，我们现在的情况是，对小型商场、沿街商铺的奖励，反而超过了对住宅的奖励。

And because of Prop 13, we have a situation where we reward a small mall, strip mall, more than we would housing.

所以很多城市都在抵制这种做法。

So many cities push back against it.

因此，就目前的法律而言，我会坚持维持房产税水平，但我认为我们应该像‘长远思考’倡议那样，彻底改革这个支离破碎的税收体系。

So with respect to, I'm saying with the laws we have today, hold the line on property taxes, but I think we need to fix the whole broken tax system along the lines of Think Long.

Think Long 指出，当年通过13号提案时，商业地产承担了60%的税负。

Think Long has said that what we have today when we pass Prop 13, commercial properties were paying 60% of the freight.

而住宅业主只承担了40%。

Homeowners were paying 40%.

现在情况完全反过来了。

Now it's the other way around.

房产是搬不走的。

Property can't move.

但人可以。

People can.

所以我反对对亿万富翁征税，因为我知道他们肯定会搬走。

It's why I've opposed the billionaire tax because I said they're just going to leave.

但我确实认为13号提案得改，而且要彻底改革整个失衡的税收体系。

But I do believe we need to fix Prop 13, but fix the whole broken tax system.

但在现行法律框架下，Ezra，房产税确实得稳住。

But within the laws that we have today, Ezra, yes, hold the line on property taxes.

那你详细说说，你打算怎么改革这个税收体系？

So walk me through how you would fix that tax system.

抱歉，你说什么？

Beg pardon?

你详细说说，你打算怎么改革这个税收体系？

Walk me through how you would fix that tax system.

我们该怎么

How do we

改呢？

fix it?

对，你的意思是，你想做的比只改提案13更全面。

Yeah, you're saying you want to do it more comprehensively than Prop 13 reform.

我们确实得改提案13。

We need to fix Prop 13.

我刚才不是说了吗，以前商业房产缴税占六成，现在只剩四成了。

I just told you we went from 60% commercial to now 40%.

不好意思。

Sorry.

我们以前说过，房主交40%的税，商业房产交60%，现在反过来啦。

We said back then, homeowners are paying 40%, commercial was paying 60%, now it's the other way around.

这事儿得改。

We got to change that.

这是第一点。

That's one.

第二点，我确实觉得，1978年以前买房的人，缴的税跟今天买房的人完全不一样，这个问题得解决。

Two, I do believe that we have to address the fact that people that bought a home before 1978 don't have to pay the same taxes that people who buy a house today do.

这也不公平。

And that's not fair either.

我们当然希望降低负担，但也不能忽视，我们这一代能买得起房，是因为上一代人做出了巨大牺牲。

We want to keep those costs down, but we have to address the fact that my generation was benefited by the greatest generation that made sacrifices so we could buy a home.

顺便说一句，我25岁就买了房。

And by the way, I bought a home at 25 years old.

我当时在一家非营利组织工作。

I was working at a nonprofit.

现在年轻家庭根本买不起，因为平均首付要高达十四万到十六万美元。要解决这个问题，我们必须改革扭曲的税收体系，因为我们根本没有服务税。

Today, young families can't buy that because the average down payment is 140,000 to $160,000 But fixing the broken tax system, we got to address the fact that we don't have a service tax.

几乎每个州都有服务税。

Almost most states do.

我们必须调整高收入群体的税率。

We got to fix the upper income tax.

很多高收入人群正在离开，我们必须正视我们过度依赖他们的现状。

Those people are leaving and we've got to address the fact that we over rely.

我是今天台上唯一一位当过加州州众议院议长的人。

I'm the only person on this stage that's actually been the speaker of the California State Assembly.

我曾经两次平衡预算，而且都实现了财政盈余。

I had to balance two budgets with a surplus and I did both times.

事实上，经济好的时候我们能做到，经济差的时候却做不到，因为最顶层的人承担了绝大部分税负。

The fact is we can do that in times of, you know, good times and bad times we can't because the people at the top are paying the vast majority of the taxes.

所以，Think Long 提出了一项方案，把税负分散到整个经济体系中，减少对高收入群体税收的过度依赖，同时鼓励城市多建住房，而不是购物中心。

So, Think Long has put a proposal to spread them across the economy so that we're not over relying on the upper income tax so that we can tax more and incentivize cities to build housing, not strip malls.

不错。

Great.

听起来你是想调整房产税的征收方式。

So it sounds like you wanna move the line on property taxes.

你觉得现在的制度根本行不通。

You think the system is not working as it currently

是的。

says?

制度确实出了问题。

The system's not working.

对。

Yes.

而且

And

那这怎么才能推动费用方面的改变呢？

how then does that give you some movement on fees?

对吧？

Right?

我们听到几位候选人提到过各种附加费用，这些费用部分是因为房产税的运作方式造成的。

We've heard a couple of the candidates on stage talk about the various fees that are layered on in part because of the way property taxes work.

你打算怎么处理这些问题？

How do you approach those?

当马特和我上台时，我们常常意见一致，因为他讲得对。

When when Matt and I are on the stage, we tend to agree a lot because he's right.

开发配套费快把我们压垮了。

Impact fees are killing us.

大约十五万

About 150

你能给不太了解的人解释一下什么是开发配套费吗？

Can you describe what impact fees are for people who are not No, asleep I'm in the weeds on

他提到了。

He mentioned it.

停车费，还有各种团体都说的那些费用，当然，这些都是好事。

Parking fees, all the fees that every group says, all good things by the way.

你的书的核心观点是，民主党人现在不搞建设了，因为我们总想追求完美，而完美根本不存在。

And your book, the essence of your book is that Democrats don't build anymore because we're looking for perfect and perfect doesn't exist.

这正是像我们这样有经验的人才会遇到的情况。

That's what happens when you have the kind of experience the two of us do.

说到底，在经济衰退的八年里，我建成的市场化、工薪阶层可负担和无家可归者住房，比前任十二年加起来还多。

At the end of the day, I built more market rate, workforce affordable and homeless housing in eight years in the middle of a recession than they did in the in the twelve years before me.

市中心的天际线，人口从两万增长到了六万。

The downtown skyline went from 20,000 people to 60,000.

我是美国历史上第一位推行公交导向型发展区的市长，让住房围绕公共交通站点建设。

I'm the first person in The United States Of America, mayor, to do transit oriented development districts so that we're building housing along transit districts.

所以，布菲·威克斯和鲍勃·赫什伯格正在做的这些事，正是我们降低房价、增加住房供给、让年轻人重新买得起房的关键。

So what Buffy Wicks and Bob Hershberger here are doing, these are the things that we need to do to drive down costs, to build housing and to make sure that young people can buy a home again.

谢谢您，先生。

Thank you, Mr.

比利亚拉伊戈萨。

Villaraigosa.

我写的一些歌，都是从钢琴开始的。

Some songs that I've written, I started on the piano.

《我想要的圣诞节》就是这样写出来的。

That happened with All I Want for Christmas Is You.

如果你还没听出来，那就是玛丽亚·凯莉。

If you couldn't tell, that is Mariah Carey.

我是约翰·卡拉蒙尼卡，纽约时报‘30位最伟大的在世美国词曲作者’项目的评审之一。

I'm John Karamonika, one of the critics behind the New York Times' 30 greatest living American songwriters project.

我们采访了名单上的一些词曲作者，包括泰勒·斯威夫特——她已经很久没参与过这样的视频访谈了。

We interviewed some of the songwriters on our list, including Taylor Swift, who hasn't sat for a video like this in a long time.

这些对话可不是普通的闲聊。

These are not ordinary conversations.

你看了这些视频后，就能了解到一些很少人能接触到的创作方式。

You're gonna watch these videos and learn about intimate approaches to craft in ways that you rarely have access to.

我妈妈给我买了一个笔记本，我写得特别小，就是不想让人看到我写的东西。

My mom had got me this notebook, and I was just writing it really small because I didn't want anybody to read what I was writing.

明白了。

Okay.

Jay Z 年轻时的笔记本。

Jay Z's teenage notebooks.

我真想看看那些。

I need to see those.

免费观看所有访谈视频，了解更多关于《纽约时报》‘30位最伟大的在世美国词曲作者’项目，请访问 nytimes.com/30greatest 或使用我们的 App。

Watch all the video interviews for free and check out the entire 30 greatest living American songwriters project at nytimes.com/30greatest or in the app.

也欢迎告诉我们，你是否认同我们的选择。

And let us know if you agree with our picks.

我猜你不会同意。

I bet you won't.

我想聊聊很多住房项目都会遇到的一个难题，就是和地方政府之间的冲突。

I wanna talk a bit about one of the difficult fights that a lot of housing projects have run into, which is the conflict with cities and counties.

贝塞拉先生，您当加州总检察长时，加州就开始对一些城市提起住房诉讼了。

And mister Becerra, you were state attorney general when California began suing cities over housing.

您曾起诉过亨廷顿海滩市。

You sued Huntington Beach.

您还主导了圣马特奥县的案件，扩大了住房问责法的管辖范围。

You led the San Mateo case that expanded the housing accountability act, zone of authority.

如今，纽森州长已威胁要对另外15个拖延或反对州住房法规的城市和县提起诉讼。

Governor Newsom has now threatened lawsuits against 15 more cities and counties for dragging their feet or opposing state housing law.

这些诉讼真的能推动更多住房建设吗？

Do these lawsuits work to build more housing?

就拿亨廷顿海滩来说，打了好几年官司，可新房子一栋都没建起来。

I mean, Huntington Beach, it's been just years of legal wrangling, not new build.

如果这些诉讼效果有限，作为州长，您会用什么其他手段，或者创造什么新工具，来让地方政府跟上州里的步伐？

And if they don't, what enforcement tools would you want to use or create as governor to align cities with the state?

埃兹拉，你得把所有能用的手段都用上，诉讼肯定是其中之一。

Ezra, have to use every tool you have, and certainly litigation is one.

谁也不想走到这一步。

You hate to have to go there.

我们自然希望州政府和地方政府能相互配合。

You would hope that you would have cooperation between state and local government.

地方政府出于各种原因，都想掌控自己辖区内住房建设的决定权。

Local governments have, for any number of reasons, decided they want to be able to control what happens when it comes to housing in their jurisdiction.

他们确实有手段，比如分区法规。

And they do have tools, zoning laws.

我们常提到那些他们试图收取的费用，说是用来支持基础设施建设。

We talk about these fees that they try to collect to help when infrastructure.

但我想说的是，州和地方必须达成一致，明确加州在住房问题上到底会怎么做。

But what I would say is we have to have an agreement, a state local government agreement that there has to be a clear path on what the state of California will do when it comes to housing.

每个地方政府都得配合，确保自己尽到应尽的责任。

Every local government must then fall in place to make sure they're doing their fair share.

起诉亨廷顿海滩，是因为他们自己制定了住房规划方案。

The lawsuit against Huntington Beach was because Huntington Beach had its own housing element plan.

他们明明承认需要建造几百套新房，结果却反悔了。

It itself had made the made it clear that they needed to build several 100 units of new housing, and then they reneged.

我们起诉他们的时候就说，这可是你们自己定的计划。

And so when we sued them, we said, you it's in your own plan.

你们就是不愿意落实。

You're just not willing to do it.

我们赢了，是因为他们确实违反了法律。

The reason we won is because they were violating the law.

起诉圣马特奥县，是为了明确一点：州政府在住房问题上必须发挥作用。虽然我们都是加州人，是洛杉矶人、奥克兰人，但大家都要能在加州生活、工作、生存下去。

The case against San Mateo County was simply to make it clear that the state has a role when it comes to housing because while we all are Californians and we're Angelenos or Oaklanders or whatever else, we all have to be able to live and and work and survive in California.

所以州政府必须承担起责任。

So the state of California has a role to play.

我曾为一项法律辩护，规定每个辖区都必须履行自己的住房义务，我们最终在法庭上胜诉，法院裁定这项法律合宪，这为我们后来推动立法、促成如今这项新法律奠定了基础，让更多的住房建设成为可能。

I defended the the law that said that every jurisdiction is accountable to meet its housing responsibility, and we prevailed in court and found that that law was constitutional, which set the foundation for us to now be able to push and see the legislation that has now become law that's gonna let us build more.

但这项法律是否提供了足够的处罚手段来确保它真正生效？

But has that law given access to the kinds of penalties that are needed to make it work?

比如亨廷顿海滩这个案子就很有趣，因为州政府和亨廷顿海滩之间来回拉扯了很久。

I mean, the Huntington Beach case is interesting because the state and Huntington Beach have gone back and forth.

亨廷顿海滩后来换了新一届政府，反对声音反而更强了。

There was elections at Huntington Beach that led to more opposition.

据我所知，到目前为止，住房项目还是没建起来。

And to my knowledge, it has not led to the housing being built.

问题在于，对那些不愿配合的城市，目前的惩罚力度还不够，没法逼他们听从州政府的要求。

That there is some absence of sanction that is sufficient to make the cities that don't want to do it agree with the state.

有两个问题，伊泽拉，我这么说，是因为我曾经担任过加利福尼亚州的首席执法官。

Two issues, Ezra, and and this I say as the former chief and law enforcement officer for the state of California.

执法的难点在于，有时候罚款根本不够痛，根本起不到震慑作用。

The difficulty with enforcement is sometimes the penalties, the fines are never enough.

对一些城市来说，违法反而像是一种运营成本。

It's almost a cost of doing business to violate the law.

你宁愿交罚款，也不愿往那个方向走。

You're willing to pay the cost of the fines to not have to go in that direction.

第二个问题是，这事儿拖得太久了。

The second problem is, of course, it takes forever.

当我担任州总检察长，或者当卫生与公共服务部部长时，只要法律要求做某事，我第一反应是先给点空间。

And so I I take when I've been attorney general or or when I was secretary of health and human services on the health care side, the approach I took when there's a law in place that requires you to do something, I would first give you leash.

我会说：先给你一些激励，让你主动按法律要求去做。

I'd say, I'm gonna give you incentives to do what you're supposed to do under the law.

但过一段时间，这些激励就会减弱，到了某个节点，就得转向处罚了。

At some point, though, those incentives go down, and at some point, we cross over and now becomes penalties.

拖延的时间越长，处罚就越重。

And the penalties grow the longer it takes you to conform to what the law says you have to do.

先用激励引导他们主动配合，要是还不行动，再因不作为施加处罚。

Incent them to come forward, and if they don't, then start penalizing them for not coming forward.

让我谈谈这些激励措施。

Let me pick up on the incentives.

你计划里有一句话我觉得挺有意思，就是说我们会同时采用奖励的方式。

One of the lines I thought was interesting in your plan is, quote, we will use a carrot approach as well.

那些履行了义务的城市，应该优先获得州里的资源支持。

Cities meeting their obligations should be first in line for state resources.

具体是哪些州级资源呢？

Which state resources?

目前确实有一些现成的住房和社区发展资金可以动用，但马上就要用完了。

Well, we do have some funding that would be available right now in existing housing and community development agency funding, but it's running out.

我们确实需要一个稳定的资金来源。

We do need to have a a funding source.

ballot 上那些设立发债授权的提案，能帮我们解决一部分资金问题，但前提是必须确保资金渠道真正建立起来。

The initiatives that are on the ballot to create bonding authority would help us have some of that funding that we would need, but we would have to certainly make sure we're generating the source of funding.

州议会确实会给州政府拨一些钱。

The legislature does provide the state with some money.

虽然远远不够，但至少还有改进的空间。

It's not nearly enough, but there is an opportunity to make it clear.

州政府的资金会优先分配给那些遵守州法义务的地区。

The funding that the state has will first and foremost be allocated to those who are conforming to their state law obligations.

那些不遵守的，原本可能拿到的钱，现在会转给真正履行住房义务的地区。

Those who aren't, the money that you could have gotten is going to those who are actually fulfilling their housing requirements.

让我接一下另一边的问题。

And let me pick up the question from the other side.

比如一些城市，我就拿亨廷顿海滩举例吧，他们根本不想做这件事。

So you have cities, you know, and again, I'll use Huntington Beach as an example to say, we don't want to do this.

那里选出的代表，竞选时就是承诺不干这事儿的。

The representatives you're dealing with there are elected on a platform of not doing this.

那为什么州政府有权力强迫他们这么做？

Why is it the state's prerogative to tell them what to do?

这就像孩子非得吃西兰花一样，道理是一样的。

Well, state same reason kids have to eat their broccoli.

说到底，我们都得遵守规则。

I mean, we all have to we have to live by rules.

我向你保证，谁都希望过马路时不用怕红灯，但咱们得守规矩。

I I guarantee you, everyone would love to be able to cross through an intersection and not have to worry about the red light, but we have rules.

我住在纽约。

I live in New York.

那儿根本没人理红灯。

Nobody worries about the red light.

幸好咱们在加利福尼亚。

Thank God this is California.

你看，我们这个社会相信必须守规矩，也从小就教孩子要遵纪守法。

See, we're not look, we're a society that believes that we must and we teach our kids to follow rules.

如果你是个城市，眼看着住房危机却还不守规矩，那就别怪我出手了。

And if you're a city and you see the housing crisis and you're not following the rules, then get ready because I'm gonna enforce.

我会动用州政府的权力，联合总检察长、住房与社区发展部门，还有那些愿意推动变革的人，给你一个真正动工的理由。

I will use the powers of the state working with the attorney general, working with our housing and community development agencies, and working with those who are willing to push the envelope to say, I'm gonna give you a reason to do this building.

我会给你实实在在的激励。

I'm gonna give you an incentive.

我会让你优先办理。

I'll put you in the front of the line.

但迟早你得付出代价，因为我们必须建房。

But at some point, you're gonna pay the price because we need to build.

马汉市长，接着您刚才说的，我们确实一再看到这种现象：萨克拉门托通过了大型住房法案，但各城市和县却总能找到办法拖延或规避执行。

Mayor Mahan, building on that, we we do see repeatedly this dynamic where big housing bills passed in Sacramento, then cities and counties find ways to delay or evade them.

您现在是市长，同时也在竞选州长。

You're a mayor right now, also running for governor.

您会如何处理地方自治与州政府目标之间的这种矛盾？和纽森州长的做法有什么不同？

How would you handle this tension between local control and state goals differently than governor Newsom has?

我觉得其实纽森州长在住房问题上一直是个坚定的支持者。

Well, I think actually, I think governor Newsom has been a champion for housing.

虽然我和他在其他政策上公开有过分歧，但在住房方面，他比以往任何一位州长都更有魄力，我对此非常认可。

And and while I he and I have disagreed publicly on some other policy areas, I think he's been bolder on housing than than other past governors we've had, and I give him a lot of credit for that.

我的理念是，应该通过住房规划和目标指标，明确告诉各城市和县他们该承担什么责任。

I mean, my philosophy is that we should use our housing element process and and the arena targets to tell cities and counties what is expected of them.

相关政策、项目、分区规划，以及为住房预留的空间和快速审批的机制。

The the policies, the programs, and the zoning and the space they need to create for housing and the ability to approve it quickly.

我之前提到过限制收费的问题。

I talked about capping fees.

我们应该给予地方自主权，但前提是他们不能滥用这份权力。

And we should give local control up to the point where they lose the privilege of having that local control.

根据我的经验，我们曾经也面临过这种情况。

We I can tell you from experience, we were on the receiving end of this.

在我前任任内就开始了对住房规划的审查，等我上任时，这个问题还在持续。

We had a number of critiques of a housing element that started under my predecessor and then around the time I came into office.

你能解释一下什么是住房规划吗？

Can you describe what a housing element is?

住房规划是一项政策文件，城市和县都需要提交给州政府，证明我们已经通过分区规划为新建住房预留了空间，并且本地也有相应的政策和措施来推动住房建设。

This is a policy document that we as a city and counties as well have to submit to the state to basically show that we have zoned to create room for new housing and that we have programs and policies at the local level that will in fact enable that housing to get built.

我们的规划曾受到一些批评，整个审批过程拖得很慢，来回反复了好几次。

And we had some critiques of our plan, and it was a slow back and forth, a slow process for getting it passed.

和本州许多其他城市一样，我们没能按时通过审批，而州政府设有一套问责机制，我觉得这比诉讼有效得多。

And like most other many other cities in the state, we did not meet one of the deadlines for approval, and the state has an accountability mechanism that I would suggest is much more effective.

被这套机制盯上当然不好受，但它比所谓的‘建房人救济’诉讼要有效多了。

It's not fun to be on the receiving end of it, but it's much more effective than lawsuits, which is what's called builder's remedy.

我认为，诉讼应该是最后的手段。

And I think that the the a lawsuit should be the last resort here.

我坚信，我们的下任州长绝不能用律师的思维来处理这个问题。

I I feel very strongly that our next governor cannot bring a lawyer's mindset to this problem.

这是一个市场失灵的问题。

It is a market failure.

这也是一个流程失效的问题。

It is a it is a process failure.

问题出在成本叠加上。

It's the cost stack.

问题出在效率上。

It's the efficiency.

比如模块化这种创新方式。

It's innovation like modular.

但当城市未能按时完成审批、试图用收费和地方建筑规范阻止住房建设、或未能真正推动住房落地时，我认为州政府应当介入，为开发商设立强制推进机制，哪怕城市不同意也能继续推进项目。

But in this case, when cities fail to meet permitting deadlines, when they try to use fees and local building codes to block housing, when they don't deliver on actually enabling housing to get built, I think the state should override and create buy right mechanisms for developers to move ahead projects whether or not the city likes it.

说实话，我觉得这种问责机制更有效，因为我们看到这些诉讼往往拖上好几年，反复上诉，最后法院也许只是要求地方重新修订政策、更新总体规划或住房规划之类的。

I think that's an accountability mechanism that's more effective, frankly, because what we see with these lawsuits is they drag on for years, they get appealed, and eventually, maybe the court tells the locality, go back and update your policies, update your general plan, update your your housing element or whatever it is.

但住房实际上根本没建起来。

And we're not actually seeing housing get built.

就你提到的亨廷顿海滩，它确实没增加多少住房供应。

Huntington Beach is not building more housing to your point.

圣地亚哥我记得是在贝塞拉担任总检察长时被起诉的，那个两千套的项目到现在还没开工。

San Diego, I think, was sued, I think, when mister Becerra was the AG, and one of the projects with 2,000 units still hasn't gotten built.

所以如果真想建住房，光靠法律途径效果实在有限。

So I think the the legal path is not particularly effective if we actually wanna build housing.

我想问问你，关于另一面的问题——说服力，以及州政府与城市之间的关系。

Let me ask you about the other side of this question, which is persuasion and the relationship between the state and the cities.

显然，如果能达成一致，而不是非要靠法律救济或打官司，那就更好了。

Obviously, it is better if there is alignment rather than you have to go to builders remedies or litigation.

那你觉得有没有办法让城市愿意配合呢？

So do you think there are ways to bring cities along?

你显然是个大力支持住房建设的市长，但你肯定也认识其他市长，亲眼见过这些争执。

I mean, do you think there are you're obviously a very pro housing mayor, but you presumably know other mayors, and you have seen these fights up close.

州长能做些什么？或者如果你当州长，会采取什么措施，来让州里的目标和城市的意愿更协调一些？

Are there things the governor could do or things that you would do as governor that would that you think could lead to more cohesion between the state goals and the city's preferences?

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得我们需要——我们之前也提到过，融资工具很重要。

I think we're going to need we've talked to we touched on financing tools.

你们可能都知道，大衰退期间，加州的再开发项目被取消了。

And as you all probably know, during the Great Recession, redevelopment went away went away in California.

我认为再开发项目当初提供的那种税收增量融资机制很有用，就是可以预估未来房产税的增长部分，把这部分预期收益提前打包成债券，用来支持本地改造。

And I think that what redevelopment offered was this tax increment financing, meaning you could project future property tax increases, the increment, and then pull that value forward and bond it to make local upgrades.

我觉得我们需要有限度地重新启用这个工具。

And I think we need to revisit having that tool in a limited fashion.

有些城市和县因为滥用导致债务高企，所以必须设置一些限制措施。

I think there some cities and counties got into trouble and racked up big debts, and so there need to be guardrails.

但这种方式能让城市在不把所有新增成本都压在每个新项目上的情况下，建设所需的基础设施。

But that is a way for cities to build the infrastructure that they need without having to put all of that incremental cost on each new project upfront.

我认为这可以成为推动更多保障性住房建设的手段，也能促进那些让城市和县更快看到住房建设财政收益的配套升级。

And I think it's a mechanism that could be used to unlock more affordable housing, more of the horizontal upgrades that would enable cities and counties to see the fiscal benefits of building housing faster.

贝塞拉先生，您刚才提到了诉讼是否有效的这个问题。

Mister Becerra, you mentioned there over the question of whether or not the litigation is effective.

您有一分钟时间进一步展开说明。

You have one minute to expand on that.

我和马特一样，并没有具体点出这个项目，但这是发生在圣迭戈县山区、属于野火高风险区域的一个项目。

And I believe we, as Matt, didn't identify the project specifically, but this was a project in the San Diego County area that was in the hills in wildfire risky areas.

这是一个规模相当大的开发项目，有好几千个单元。

It was a pretty large development, several thousand units.

它只有一条逃生通道。

It had one route for egress.

我们去找了开发商，也找了县政府，告诉他们：这有安全隐患。

And we went to the developer and we went to the county and said, this is a safety hazard.

如果真发生山火，这可能会造成人员伤亡。

This is something that could lead to the loss of life if indeed we have a wildfire.

那是我担任总检察长期间，2017到2021年的事，远在帕利塞兹和阿尔塔登那之前。

This was when I was AG between 2018 2017 and 2021, way before Palisades and Altadena.

我们就跟他们说：你们要是建这么多住宅，让人住到山上，万一山火来了，总得让人有活命的出路吧。

And we simply said to them, if you're gonna build that many housing units and people are gonna be living up there and there's a wildfire that hits, you better have a way for these folks to be able to save their lives.

只有一条逃生通道，根本不够。

Having one route of egress was not gonna do it.

所以我们跟他们讲：要是你们不解决这个问题，会怎么样？

So we said to them, if you're not gonna take care of this, guess what?

那我们只能告你们了。

We're gonna have to sue you.

我们试过了。

We tried.

我们本来不想走法律途径，但有时候，马特，确实需要有人懂得如何执行法律。

We tried not to do the litigation, but sometimes, Matt, it does help to have someone who knows how to enforce the law.

维拉拉戈萨先生，您曾担任洛杉矶市长，这座城市对我来说意义非凡，我是加州大学洛杉矶分校的毕业生，小时候就住在离这儿一小时车程的地方。

Mister Villaraigosa, you were mayor of Los Angeles, a city very close to my heart as a UCLA graduate, and I grew up an an hour ago.

我也是。

Me too.

这不就对了。

There you go.

最近，洛杉矶在住房政策上并没有树立什么好榜样。

LA has not exactly been a model of pro housing policy of late.

市长凯伦·巴斯签署了81号法案，加快了经济适用房的建设，但后来因为地方反对，看到效果太好反而开始倒退。

Mayor Karen Bass signed 81 which expedited affordable housing then started rolling it back because of local opposition when it seemed to work almost too well.

洛杉矶通过了ULA措施，对500万美元以上的房产交易征收转让税，结果似乎抑制了多户住宅项目的开发。

LA passed measure ULA, a transfer tax on the sale of properties over $5,000,000 which seems to have cut the development of multifamily properties.

SB 79号法案本意是增加公共交通周边的住房密度，在萨克拉门托通过了，但洛杉矶市议会却通过重新分区来拖慢它的进度。

SB 79, which increases housing density around transit passed in Sacramento, and LA City Council passed a rezoning to slow it down.

如果你当州长，会怎么让洛杉矶重新成为住房建设的推动力？

What would you do as governor to make Los Angeles an engine of housing progress again?

正如我之前说的，我再重复一遍：在经济衰退期间的八年里，我建成的市场化、工薪阶层和无家可归者住房，比之前十二年的总和还多，市中心的人口从两万涨到了六万。

Well, as I said, and I'll say it again, I built more market rate, workforce affordable homeless housing in eight years in the middle of a recession than in the twelve years before me, the downtown skyline changed from 20,000 to 60,000 people.

我同意。

I agree.

说实话，我反对ULA法案。

Look, I'm opposed to the ULA.

ULA就是一项房产转让税，大家要知道这一点。

The ULA is a transfer tax, everybody.

听起来是挺不错的，条款写得也漂亮。

What it says, it sounds good.

他们管这叫豪宅税。

They call it the mansion tax.

它规定，售价超过五百万元的房产，要征收百分之五的转让税。

It says that homes over 5,000,000, you have to have a 5% transfer tax.

首先，在洛杉矶，五百万元根本买不到一栋豪宅。

You can't buy a mansion in LA, number one, for 5,000,000.

其次，这政策影响的不只是独栋住宅。

But number two, it doesn't just impact single family dwellings.

它还波及多户住宅。

It impacts multifamily dwellings.

连商业房产也一并受影响。

It impacts commercial.

说到兰德公司和加州大学洛杉矶分校，我的母校，他们做过一项研究。

Speaking of RAND and UCLA, my alma mater, they did a study.

这项研究显示，自从实施ULA以来，建筑开工量下降了百分之八十四。

And that study showed that we've had an 84% drop in construction since the ULA.

我要明确一点，据我所知，在那八年里，我经手的住宅、机场、社区学院和学校的建设项目，使用的塔吊数量比谁都多。

And let me be clear, as I understand it, I had more cranes than anybody in that eight year period of time for housing, the airport, community colleges, schools.

今天，我们终于实现了二十年前我提出的一个构想的第一步。

Today, we just opened up the first leg of something I said twenty years ago.

我当时说，和我一起畅想一下。

I said, dream with me.

我们要建一条通往海边的地铁，现在真的建成了。

We'll build a subway to the sea and we built it.

顺便说一句，说到之前在休息室聊的那些事，我跟你们提过，我当时在推动资源充裕的计划。

And by the way, abundance, when we were talking in the green room or whatever that was, one of the things I told you, I was doing abundance.

2012年，我去见了奥巴马，跟他说：奖励那些愿意自掏腰包投入建设的城市和县区，让我们能拿到低息贷款来修建公共交通。

In 2012, went to 10, I went to Obama and I said, reward cities and counties that are putting up their own money, allow us to access low cost loans to build transit.

我还说，把国家环境政策法和加州环境质量法合并，缩短审批时间——你不是也说过吗？时间拖得越长，成本就越高。

And then I said, put NEPA and CEQUA together to cut time because you said it, drives up cost is time.

我们的配套收费，还有加州环境质量法。

Our impact fees, our CEQUA.

你知道吗？根据加州环境质量法，其实根本不需要……

Do you know that under CEQUA, you don't need to It's supposedly the California Environmental Quality Act.

你没必要以环保为由去打官司。

You don't need to sue on environmental reasons.

但根据《国家环境政策法》，你就得这么做。

NEPA, you do.

你甚至可以从加利福尼亚州的里士满，或者弗吉尼亚州的里士满，对加利福尼亚州里士满的项目提起诉讼。

You can sue from Richmond, California, I mean Richmond, Virginia for a project in Richmond, California.

没错，确实可以。

Yes, you can.

这系统已经乱了。

It's broken.

这事儿我全国范围内已经较了二十年的劲了，最近和巴菲这些人一起干，我特别欣赏他们的做法，因为这正是我们推进建设必须做的事。

I've been taking it on for twenty years nationally and lately that with Buffy and some of these people, I love what they're doing because this is what we have to do to build.

但我得问你一下洛杉矶的政治情况，因为那里的议员和市长确实都在回应本地的具体诉求。

But let me ask you about the politics of Los Angeles because I do take the legislators there, the mayors there is responding to local local demands.

我记得有一次跟加西亚蒂市长谈话，当时洛杉矶刚通过H号提案，压力就来了。

I remember speaking to mayor Garcetti at one point, and there was pressure after Los Angeles passed measure, HHH.

他们确实拿到了建房的钱，但很多地方都不愿意让项目建在自己家门口。

Well, they got the money to build, but a lot of places didn't want it built where they were.

所以，即使在房价高得离谱的城市，也照样有人反对。

And so there there is a a push here even in a city where housing is very expensive.

你对这座城市了如指掌，比谁都清楚。

So, you know, you you know that city as well as anybody.

你该怎么说服洛杉矶市长和市民，让他们相信你做的事对这座城市真正有利？

Like, how would you persuade both the mayor of Los Angeles and the people of it that the things you want to do are good for LA?

其实大家在这点上意见挺一致的。

You There's know, a lot of agreement here.

Xavier 提到过，要用胡萝卜加大棒的策略。

Xavier said something about using a carrot and a stick.

我同意。

I agree.

我就是这么做的。

That's what I did.

我特别喜欢用奖励的方式。

I love using carrots.

我喜欢走进各个社区，跟大家聊建住房或者收容所的必要性，不管具体是哪儿。

I loved going into neighborhoods, talking about the need to build a housing or a homeless facility or wherever it is.

我喜欢和他们合作，也愿意妥协。

I love working with them and compromising with them.

但最后我明白了一件事。

But in the end, I understood one thing.

如果你想讨人喜欢，就养条狗吧。

If you want to be popular, get a dog.

这些工作总得做些艰难的决定。

These are jobs where you got to make tough calls.

我做了这些艰难的决定。

I made those tough calls.

正因如此，犯罪率才下降了48%。

That's how crime went down 48.

我到那儿的时候，那是全美最暴力的大城市。

It was the most violent big city in America when I got there.

这就是为什么毕业率提升了60%。

That's how graduation rates went up 60%.

我掀了桌子，做了那些艰难的决定。

I rocked the apple cart and I made the tough calls.

当你当上州长的时候，就得这么做。

And that's what you have to do when you're governor.

我们通过了这些法律，但关键是要落实到位。

We passed all these laws, but we got to implement them.

我同意你的看法。

And I agree with you.

加文毫无疑问是一位关注住房的州长。

Gavin has without question been a housing governor.

法律是通过了，但现在更需要有人来真正推动执行。这就是为什么我主张在住房部门设立一个问责委员会，确保他们不仅写好了住房规划，更实实在在地建出规划里承诺的住房。

We passed the laws, but now we need the leadership to actually implement them, which is why I've said we need an accountability, a housing production accountability board within, the housing department to make sure they're meeting not just their housing element, but actually building the housing that they say that's in that element.

谢谢您，维拉拉戈萨先生。

Thank you, mister Villaraigosa.

斯泰耶先生，我在这一部分一直在问，如何应对来自体制内部的阻力，而加州的体系非常复杂，州长并不能完全掌控。

Mister Steyer, I've broadly been asking questions in this section about how to manage opposition coming from parts of the system, and California is a very complex system the governor does not control.

在所有在场的候选人中，您对加州层层叠叠的政府机构、重叠的职权和利益相关方的了解最少。

Of all the candidates on stage, have the least experience dealing with California's many many layers of government, overlapping authorities, stakeholders.

您之前从未担任过公职。

You've never held public office before.

这是一个极度依赖人际关系的体系。

It's very relationship based system.

我接触过很多欣赏您理念的人，但他们担心您会被这套体系压垮。

Many people I've talked to who like your ideas are worried you'll get overwhelmed by the system.

就连对这套体系了如指掌的人，都容易被它压得喘不过气。

It overwhelms even people who know it very well.

您怎么回应这些担忧？

What's your answer to them?

你应该知道，过去十一年里，我们在萨克拉门托有二十个人一直在推动立法，全程参与这个体系，努力组建联盟、推进进步政策。

You should know that for the last eleven years, we've had 20 people in Sacramento working on legislation and being part of this system for the whole time to trying to put together coalitions and work for progressive policies.

其次，我在加利福尼亚州主导过三项公投提案，每一项都需要联合立法者、工会、各种利益团体，很多时候还包括商会，比如在推动烟草税时，还得争取医疗协会的支持。

Second of all, I've done I've run three ballot initiatives in the state of California, all of which have required a coalition of legislators, of unions, of, you know, interest groups, including many times chambers of commerce, including, you know, in in in the case of getting a tobacco tax, getting the people in the medical associations.

但我也想说一点。

But let me say this too.

听你们在台上讨论，我们一直在谈怎么激励各城市和县区。

Listening on this stage, we're talking a lot about how we're going to incent cities and counties.

在我看来，你们其实说的是两回事。

You're talking about, in my mind, two different things.

一个是，我们该怎么重组州政府内部的各个机构？

One is how are we gonna organize the agencies within the state government?

另一个是，我们该怎么跟加州各地的城市和县区打交道？

How are we gonna relate to the cities and counties around the state of California?

这是两个完全不同的问题。

And those are two separate questions.

首先，州长把所有住房事务集中到一个部门，这算是个不错的开端，但远远不够。因为住房在时间和成本上的问题，很大程度上源于多个机构职责重叠、目标不一致甚至相互冲突。

The first one, this the governor's step of bringing all of the housing into one place is a good first step, but not nearly enough because a large part about the problems in timing and cost of housing have to do with multiple overlapping agencies who have different goals and conflicting goals.

所以，这确实是个好的开始。

So that is a good first step.

但说到城市和县一级，舞台上总给人一种印象，好像他们做错了什么，纯粹是‘别建在我家后院’的心态。

But in terms of the cities and counties, there's been a sense on this stage that they're doing something wrong, that it's basically nimbyism.

他们不想干，所以就阻挠。

They don't wanna do it, and therefore they obstruct.

我第一次想说的是这个：

And what I was trying to say the first time is this.

确实有这方面的原因，但更重要的是，他们根本负担不起。每一个住房项目对他们来说都是没有拨款的强制任务。

There is an element of that, of course, but there's also the element that they can't afford to do this, that they are getting every housing development is an unfunded mandate.

而我是舞台上唯一一个提出要通过提案，为城市和县拨款超过200亿美元的人，让它们不再背负无资金支持的强制任务。

And I'm the only person on the stage who's saying, I'll pass a proposition to bring over $20,000,000,000 to the cities and counties so it's no longer an unfunded mandate.

说到如何与人合作，很大程度上其实取决于关系。

And to a large extent, when you're asking how do you get along with people, a lot of it is about relationships.

在我的政府里，我肯定会让一些长期在这里建立关系的人来负责，他们将组成我所说的政府间事务办公室的核心团队。

And I'm sure that we would have in my administration, I have particular people in mind who have long relationships here and would be part of what I would think of an office of intergovernmental affairs.

但另一个问题是：

But the other question is this.

你说的胡萝卜和大棒，总得有点胡萝卜才行。

When you talk about carrots and sticks, you gotta have some carrots.

我说的胡萝卜，就是两千二百亿美元。

And I'm talking about $22,000,000,000 worth of carrots.

关于这个胡萝卜，我有两点要说。

So two things on that carrot.

比如说

Something like

就是这个胡萝卜？

that that carrot?

就是这个胡萝卜。

On that carrot.

几年前 ballot 上有个非常相似的提案。

There's a very similar proposal on the ballot a few years ago.

结果没通过。

It failed.

是的。

Yes.

220亿美元也远高于多数人对这项措施所能筹集资金的估算。

$22,000,000,000 is also higher than most estimates of how much money that would bring in.

如果你把这项房产税改革，或者你所说的特朗普税漏洞关闭措施放上 ballot，支持它，但像很多初衷良好的加税提案一样，最终失败了，那当钱拿不到的时候，其他计划怎么办？

So if you put this Prop 13 reform or the closing of what you call the Trump tax loophole on the ballot, and you support it, and as often happens with well meaning ballot measures to increase taxes, it fails, then what happens to the rest of the plans when the money isn't there?

让我来澄清一下。

So let me see this.

听我说，伊扎。

Say this, Ezra.

你知道，因为你做了研究，我也经历过三次，每次都有人问我问题，而那些问题涉及的提案，比现在这个分拆计税提案要难得多。

As you know because of you've done your research, I've done this three times, and three times people have asked me questions where this was a much tougher proposition than the one that is split roll.

你是说公投提案吗？

You mean ballot measures?

对。

Yes.

是的。

Yeah.

每当我考虑公投提案时，关键问题就在于有没有人出钱反对。

I've done it when you think about ballot measures, it's a question of, is there funded opposition?

我曾经对抗过石油公司，它们在反对资金上可以说是倾尽所有了。

And I've done it against oil companies that are as funded in opposition as you're ever gonna get.

大家都说我们疯了，根本不可能赢，结果我们拿到了70%的选票。

And people told me we were crazy to do it, and we got 70% of the vote.

我们还在烟草问题上赢了，立法机构二十年都没做成的事，我们靠公投拿下了60%以上的支持。

We did it at the tobacco companies where the legislature had failed for twenty years to do it, and we got over 60% of the vote.

我们还击败了那些逃避缴纳合理州所得税的外地公司。

And we also beat the out of state companies who weren't paying fair state income tax.

所以回答你的问题，我在加利福尼亚州内已经成功推动过三次。

So in answer to your question, I've done it three times in the state of California in one.

在加利福尼亚州外，我也同样成功推动过三次。

I've done it three times outside the state of California in one.

我看着这种情况，觉得关键在于我们能不能让加州民众明白，这笔钱是必需的，是绝对必要的，而且势在必行。

I look at this and I say, this is a question is can we convince the people of California that this is something necessary, that the money is absolutely necessary, and that it's just.

在这两种情况下，我都坚信这一点，而且我很有信心我们一定能做成。

And in both of these cases, I believe that to be true, and I'm overwhelmingly confident that we can do it.

因为说实话，大家现在讨论的这个问题——也就是马特提到的重新开发，我觉得这个想法不错——每年十亿美元根本不够。

Because the truth of the matter is what everybody's talking about here, when we're talking about doing redevelopment, which is what Matt said, which I think is a good idea, that's a billion dollars a year, not enough.

我们需要建大量的住房，而且必须让各城市和县市跟我们一起行动。

We're talking about we need to build a lot of houses, and we need the cities and counties to come along with us.

归根结底，我们需要给他们提供足够的资金来实现这些目标。

Basically, we need to fund them to be able to do it.

然后你问，那你们的手段是什么，对吧？

And then you're asking what's your, you know, what's your stick?

Xavier刚才说，我们可以起诉他们。

And Xavier was saying, you know, well, we can sue them.

他确实提到这是最后的手段，但说实话，这种方式赶不上时间要求。

And he did say it was last resort, but the truth of the matter is that doesn't get it done in the time frame.

真正能推动这件事的，还是资金。

Money is actually how we're gonna get this done.

因为道理很简单：你做了，就给钱。

Because the answer is gonna be, you do it, you get the money.

你不做，就没钱。

You don't do it, you don't get the money.

你多做一份，就多拿一份。

You do more than your share, you get more than your share.

这真的需要我们有这个能力。

This is a real we need the ability.

你是在说关系吗？

You're talking about relationship?

我说的是激励机制。

I'm talking about incentive.

我们该怎么真正激励大家呢？

How do we actually incent people?

大家都觉得这些人做错了事，还存在邻避效应。

Everyone's assuming these guys are doing something wrong, and there is nimbyism.

但说实话，我跟一些市长聊过，他们说：我不想做，是因为我负担不起。

But the truth is, when I've talked to mayors, they've said, I don't wanna do this because I can't afford to do this.

只要你把钱带来，我一定全力支持你。

And if you bring the money, I'll be behind you all the way.

波特女士，您和我都住在加利福尼亚州欧文市，相隔几个街区。

Miss Porter, you and I both lived a couple blocks away from each other in Irvine, California.

欧文市是个很特别的城市。

Irvine's an unusual city.

它是一个整体规划的社区。

A master planned community.

欧文公司当年在十九世纪就集齐了那片土地，一直持有，并以如今几乎不可能的方式规划开发。

The Irvine company assembled the land of the nineteenth century and held it and then shaped it in this way that would be almost impossible today.

我说‘几乎不可能’，是因为现在真有人在尝试类似的事——那就是加利福尼亚永续项目。

And I say almost because somebody's trying to do something similar right now, which is a California forever project.

这位科技富豪——抱歉，是这位科技富豪支持的项目，计划在索拉诺县建一座四十万人的新城，土地收购方式跟当年的欧文有点像。

This tech billionaire, excuse me, tech billionaire backed effort to build a new master plan city of 400,000 in Solano County, in Solano County, I'm sorry, on land assembled somewhat like Irvine was.

当地反对声音很大。

There's been a lot of local opposition.

土地的取得方式相当特殊，而且一直很隐秘。

The way that land was acquired was sort of unusual and secretive.

我这儿有两个问题想问你。

I have two questions for you here.

作为州长，您对加利福尼亚永续项目怎么看？

As governor, what do you what would you think of California Forever?

您会以什么样的态度来对待这个项目？

What would your what would be your relationship to that project?

更广泛地说，您对像RIFF这样的总体规划项目有什么看法？

And more broadly, what do you think of the kind of master planning projects that led to RIFF?

是的。

Yeah.

我其实主动要求去见加州永恒公司的人，因为首先得认真听，得搞清楚情况，得深入研究细节，得读完报告，得提出尖锐的问题。

So I've actually asked to meet with the California Forever people because the first thing is gotta listen, you gotta find out, you gotta dig in the details, you gotta read the study, you gotta ask the hard questions.

对吧？

Right?

我觉得他们可能怕我带着白板去，所以一直不回我。

And I I think they might be scared I'm bringing a whiteboard and so they keep they keep not responding.

但我真的是抱着想理解他们的态度去的。

But I'm really coming in in a place of wanting to understand it.

我觉得其中一部分是邻避情绪。

So look, I think some of that is nimbyism.

我想对那些认为邻避情绪没那么严重的人说，你们不妨亲自去亨廷顿海滩看看，因为我曾经代表过那里。

And I would just say to those on the stage who don't think there's very much nimbyism, I invite you to visit Huntington Beach for yourself because I used to represent Huntington Beach.

你知道的，奥兰治县很多城市都特别反对建住房。

And a lot of those cities in Orange County, as you know, are very anti housing.

但有趣的是，尔湾并不在其中。

Now Irvine, interestingly, is not one of them.

他们到现在还在持续建设。

They are still building.

从你住那儿到我住那儿，人口一直在增加。

We are adding people from when you live there to when I live there.

人口翻了一倍甚至三倍，因为他们能掌控关键因素，不会被各种叠加问题压垮。

The population has doubled or tripled, and that is because they have they control enough of the factors that they don't get gobsmacked with all of these additive things.

所以，全面统筹所有相关因素确实有它的优势。

And so there is something to having that kind of, like, bigger bigger reach around all of the factors.

但让我再举个反例，说明这种模式并不总有效——这就是特哈翁牧场，我猜你可能也想到了这儿。

But let me give you another example of where this doesn't work, and this is where I thought you were going with California forever, which is Tejon Ranch.

这个案例特别有意思，你熟悉吗？

Now this is a really interesting are you familiar?

这是一个非常有意思的案例。

This is a really interesting example.

这曾是，我想现在也还是，加州面积最大的连续私人土地。

This was, like, one of the largest I think it's still today, the largest contiguous private landholding in California.

真的很了不起。

Pretty pretty amazing.

它位于洛杉矶之外。

And it's outside of Los Angeles.

他们一直试图在这里开发住宅，三十多年来都在努力建设面向工薪阶层的住房。

They have been trying to develop, and I went and I visited and I saw it, they have been trying to develop housing there, workforce priced housing for thirty some years.

他们拥有这片土地。

And they own the land.

根本没人能批准他们，没有任何机构能管这事。

Like, there's no there there there's not anybody to permit them.

对吧？

Right?

他们一直被起诉。

They just keep getting sued.

他们因为CEQA被起诉了。

They got sued on CEQA.

33项反对意见里，他们解决了29项，然后还是上了法庭。

They resolved 30 29 of the 33 objections, and then they went to court.

结果其中一项他们输了。

And they lost on one of them.

你知道后来怎么样了吗？

And do you know what happened?

所有33项反对意见又全回到了起点。

Back to zero on all 33 objections.

所以，是的，说能掌控局面确实有点道理，但我们还得用上很多别的办法。

So, yes, there's something to sort of saying you can get your arms around it, but we we have to do a lot of a lot of other tools.

我一直在想总体规划这件事，它其实可以用来应对一些配套费用问题。比如尔湾——你知道的，在尔湾的任何一条商业街，你要是刚走进一家店，走出来心想：糟了，我还得去拿另一样东西。

One thing I do think about master planning is that it can be a way to deal with some of that impact fees because Irvine, as you know, in any given strip mall in Irvine, if you're standing there and you've just walked into one store and you walk out and you think, shoot, I need to go get that other thing.

欧文公司，那个大老板，已经在购物中心对面的停车场把那东西建好了。

Irvine Company, big brother, will have put that thing across the parking lot in the strip mall.

这事儿真有点吓人。

It's, like, actually scary.

这并不是适合每个人的做法。

And it's not for everybody.

真的不适合大多数人。

It is really not for everybody.

但我认为，我住在橙县，还在这里抚养孩子，这种生活模式跟别处很不一样——这里既有全州最顽固的反对开发派，也有增长最快的亲住房城市，这种视角当州长其实很有价值。

But I think the fact that I live in and I'm raising my family in a very different model of housing and living in a place like Orange County, which has got everything from the worst NIMBY in the state to some of the fastest growing pro housing cities in the state is a really good perspective as governor.

我前几天跟人说，他们还问我，你又不是那种典型的加州大人物，像有些人那样。

I mean, I said the other day to someone, you know, well, they're like, well, you're not really from, like, a big thing in California, like, you know, some people.

我就说，橙县可是全州人口第六多的县。

And I said, well, Orange County is the sixth most populous county.

他们问：在加州？

And they said, in in California?

不是。

No.

在美国，人们。

In The United States, people.

圣地亚哥县是美国第五大人口县，他们在住房方面已经取得了一些进展。

San Diego County is the fifth most populous county in The United States, and they're making some progress on housing there.

所以，没错，你说得完全对。

So, yes, you're absolutely right.

我觉得总体规划能发挥的作用确实有限，但住房创新确实很重要。

Like, I think there are limits to what you can expect from master planning, but I do think innovation in housing is important.

如果从他们自己的说法出发——这我会作为起点，虽然不一定是我最终的立场，但这是我和加州持续对话的起点。

And at its core, if you take them at their word, which is where I would start, might not be where I'd end, but it's where I'd start the conversation with California forever.

他们说的是：让我们去创新。

What they're saying is, let us innovate.

让我们向人们展示一种全新的生活、工作和休闲方式是什么样子。

Let us show people what a different model of living and working and recreating can look like.

我觉得我们需要对住房的可能形态展开更多想象，别老是纠结在40层公寓和独栋房子之间。

And I think we need imagination about what housing could be so that we're not just fighting about 40 story apartment buildings and single family.

住房的形式其实有太多其他可能性。

There are so many other permutations of housing.

长期租赁这种模式，欧洲有，我们却没有，我当年参选参议员时就一直在推动这个。

Long term leases, which is something Europe has that we don't have, that I've I campaigned on this in my senate race.

我现在依然在推动这个议题。

I'm campaigning on it now.

我们需要更多的住房创新。

We need more housing innovation.

说到底，我觉得这些项目恰恰提供了这样的可能性。

And at its heart, that's what I think some of these projects offer.

你知道吗？印度是全球加密货币使用最多的国家，而爱沙尼亚已经在所有选举中实行在线投票了。

Did you know that India is the biggest adopter of crypto globally and that Estonia offers online voting in all its elections?

我是凯瑟琳·本霍尔德，《纽约时报》全新每日简报《世界》的主持人。

I'm Catherine Benhold, host of The World, a new daily newsletter from The New York Times.

我花了二十年时间在十几个国家做报道，有一天突然想到，我到底想读什么样的新闻简报呢？

I spent twenty years reporting from more than a dozen countries, and it occurred to me one day, you know, what kind of newsletter would I like to read?

我不住在美国。

I don't live in The US.

我希望有一份专门为全球读者打造的简报，能帮我理解发生了什么，以及为什么重要，最好还能让人不那么沮丧。

I want something that's written especially for a global audience, something that helps me understand what's going on and why it matters, and ideally something that doesn't just get me down.

《The World》就是这样一份简报。

The world is just that.

每个工作日早上，我们会为你呈现最重要的新闻、同事从现场发回的报道，还有一两个令人惊喜的视频彩蛋。

Each weekday morning, we bring you the biggest stories, dispatches from my colleagues on the ground, and a few delightful surprises with video too.

《The World》新闻简报，来自《纽约时报》。

The World Newsletter from The New York Times.

现在就去 nytimes.com/theworld 订阅，每天早上直接送到你的邮箱。

Sign up now at nytimes.com/theworld to get it in your inbox each weekday morning.

贝塞拉先生，作为卫生与公共服务部部长，您曾主管联邦政府中与无家可归问题最直接相关的机构。

Mister Becerra, as secretary of HHS, you oversaw one of the federal agencies is most directly involved in homelessness policy.

拜登政府基本采纳了‘住房优先’作为联邦层面的主要策略。

The Biden administration largely embraced Housing First as the dominant federal framework.

从2018年到2023年，加州在无家可归问题上投入了大约240亿美元，大部分都用在这个框架里。

California spent something like $24,000,000,000 on homelessness from 2018 to 2023, mostly within that framework.

但露宿街头的人数却还在持续增加。

And the unsheltered population has continued to grow.

问题出在哪里？

What went wrong?

我们没把重点放在实际效果上。

We didn't focus on outcomes.

当时根本缺乏问责机制。

There the accountability wasn't there.

240亿美元是花了，但结果根本没出来。

$24,000,000,000 was there, but the outcomes didn't result.

我们没看到有多少人能迅速离开街头。

We didn't see that people were moved off the street fast enough.

我们没有提供他们真正需要的服务。

We didn't provide the services they needed.

在我看来，无家可归危机不仅是缺个住处的问题，更是一场心理健康危机。

To me, the homelessness crisis is as much a mental health crisis as it is someone needing a place, a shelter.

我们也没提供足够的资源，来帮这些人真正站起来，防止他们再次流落街头。

And we didn't provide the types of resources to make sure we could stand people up and make sure they wouldn't go back to the streets.

我还相信，我们必须做更多工作，防止人们一开始就不陷入无家可归的境地。

I I also believe that we have to do far more to prevent people from ever becoming homeless.

作为州长，我管不了洛杉矶、奥克兰这些地方的街头，也管不了各个县。

I don't have control of the streets of Los Angeles, of Oakland, or the counties as governor.

我能掌控的，是我们拨出去的钱，以及能不能要求问责。

What I can control is the monies that we send and try to demand accountability.

但我认为最重要的是，作为州长，我要重点关注那些正站在失去住所边缘的人——不管是自己的房子，还是租的公寓。

But the most important thing I believe, and this is where I will focus as governor, is trying to help that person that is on the very edge of losing their housing, whether it's their home or their apartment that they're renting.

因为有些人会因为突发状况，比如突然失业，就陷入困境。

Because there are people who under some circumstances, you lose your job unexpectedly.

你正努力重新找工作，但过程比预期慢了一些。

You're trying to get back to work, and it's taking you a little longer.

你的积蓄已经用光了。

You've used up your savings.

你现在眼看就要租不起房子，要被赶出去了。

You're on the verge now of losing your apartment that you're renting.

你突然遭遇了医疗紧急情况。

You have a medical emergency.

你把存钱罐砸了，把所有钱都掏空了，还是不够，账单依然压得你喘不过气。

You break your piggy bank open, you use it all up, it's not enough, you still have a big bill.

突然间，你必须做个选择。

All of a sudden, you have to make a decision.

你是先付账单，还是先保住你的住处？

Do you pay the bill or do you stay in your home?

我认为，这些人最需要帮助。我会设立一个稳定基金，专门支持那些住在家里、正面临失房风险的加州人，让他们不至于无家可归。

And I believe those are the folks that if we provided more support and I would create a stabilizing fund that would be there for to help those Californians who are in a home, make sure they don't lose their home.

与其把人从街头拉回来，帮他们站起来，提供服务，安置到临时 shelters，再协助他们重新就业，不如直接投资帮助他们保住住房，这样成本低得多。

It will cost us far less to invest in someone maintaining their housing than trying to pull them off the street, get them to stand up, provide them the services, get them to temporary shelter, and then help them get reemployed.

所以我们应该先投资于预防，而不是一上来就想着怎么从街头把人拉回来。

And so let's invest in prevention before we start talking about just trying to pick people off the street.

不好意思，打扰一下。

You excuse me.

请等说到最后再说。

Hold it till the end.

你提到，你认为无家可归很大程度上是个心理健康问题。

You you mentioned that seeing you mentioned seeing much of homelessness as a mental health question.

在这个讨论中，一个棘手的问题是强制干预的角色。

One of the difficult questions within that conversation is the role of coercion.

当有人在街头出现心理问题，却拒绝接受治疗时，你该怎么办？

What do you do when people are on the street having mental health problems and they don't want to go in for treatment?

他们也不愿意进收容所，你怎么办？

They don't want to go into a home?

你对这个问题会怎么处理？

What would your approach to that be?

首先，我认为每个人都应该有机会找到出路。

First, I think we have to give everyone an opportunity to have an out.

当我推动建立988热线时，希望你们中有些人了解这个项目，它类似于911，但专门应对心理危机和自杀预防。

And when I established the nine eighty eight program, and I hope some of you are familiar with it, it's like nine eleven, but for mental health crisis and suicide prevention.

只要你拨打988，或者发短信、在线聊天，就会有人来帮你，不是警察，而是能提供专业支持的人。

And if you dial 988 or actually text or chat, you'll get someone who'll help you, not as a police officer, but as someone who can provide you services.

我们确实做了这件事。

We do that.

我们还专门为有困扰的退伍军人设立了专线。

We have a dedicated line for veterans who are hurting.

以前我们也有过一条面向LGBTQI群体的专线，让他们能跟理解自己处境的人交谈，但这一届政府把它取消了。

We had we had, but this administration took it away, a line for LGBTQI who wanted to be able to speak to somebody who would understand their concern.

我们必须给人们提供一条出路，一个选择的机会。

We have to give people an out, an opportunity.

但很多时候，我们既没有这么做，也没告诉人们：我们会守护你。

But what happens too often is we don't do that, and then we don't do the second thing is to make sure that we tell folks, we are your keeper.

我是我兄弟姐妹的守护者。

I am my brother and my sister's keeper.

我们不会任由你们在街头自生自灭。

We will not let you languish in the streets.

如果你一直拒绝帮助，而情况又明显说明你需要支援，那作为有文明素养的人，我们就有责任为你的兄弟姐妹提供帮助。

And if you keep saying no and it's clear that you need help, then it's really our responsibility as civilized people to make sure we provide our brother or sister some assistance.

所以我认为，我们必须达到这个境界。

And so I think we have to get to that point.

当一个人明显在做出对自己不利的决定时，我们不能任由他自行其是。

We don't let people make that decision when it's clear they're not making the right decisions for themselves.

你说你希望掌声停下来的时候，是指什么？

When you say that you want to see hold the hold the applause.

你说希望在无家可归者项目中加强问责，这种说法，领导者们早就不是第一次提了。

When you say that you want to see more accountability in the homelessness programs, that's not a new thing to hear from leaders.

对吧？

Right?

并不是说纽森州长不希望他推行的无家可归政策有问责机制。

It's not like governor Newsom doesn't want accountability in the homelessness policies that he puts forward.

我跟一些大城市的市长聊过，他们也都在谈这个问题。

When I've talked to mayors of major cities, they talk about this.

那么具体来说，你打算做哪些别人还没做过的事？

So very specifically, what would you do that has not already been done?

就像我在卫生与公众服务部常用的奖惩并举的方式一样，我们当时得帮医生们从纸质记录、手写处方转向电子病历，最终融入数字化时代。

Very similar to the carrot and stick approach, which I use, by the way, at HHS, we had to help doctors switch from paper record keeping, prescriptions, their medical records, to digital to finally join the electric electronic world.

很多人说，我们负担不起。

A lot of folks said, we can't afford it.

所以我们采取了分步推进的办法。

And so what we did was we scaled it.

我们说，你看——

We said, look.

我们会给你激励，让你的诊疗方式转向电子化，不断给激励、激励、激励，但到了某个节点，如果你还不跟上现实，那就变成惩罚、惩罚、惩罚了。

We're gonna give you incentives to change your practice into one that can function electronically, and we're going to give incentive, incentive, incentive, but at some point, it's going to become penalty, penalty, penalty if you don't join the real world.

我们也会用同样的办法。

We would do the same thing.

每个地方情况都不一样。

There's a locality.

如果你的项目一直在推行，却没见到成效，那我们就得终止这些项目，或者停掉拨款。

You're not you have programs, but they're not resulting in success, then we have to terminate those programs or stop the funding.

我会扩大那些真正有效的项目。

I will then scale those programs that are working.

我会把不奏效项目的资金挪到那些见效的项目上，让它们做得更大。

I'll take the money from the programs that aren't working, and I'll scale those programs that are working.

你必须软硬兼施，但归根结底我会用硬的一手，因为纳税人的钱是用来帮流浪者脱离街头的。

And that's what you have to do is you have to carrot the stick, but I will use the stick at the end of the day because taxpayers are paying for folks to be pulled off the street.

斯泰耶先生，您说我们能做的最富有同情心的事，就是恢复临时住房，帮助人们回到他们想待的地方。

Mister Steyer, you said the most compassionate thing we can do is revive the interim housing to get people where they wanna be.