你的社交生活是否缺少了什么？这个正适合你。

好的。

Okay.

你已经观看并分析过这部电影，我并不反对你的观点。

You've watched and analyze that movie and I don't disagree with you.

但是，但是，但是，在某种深层意义上，我们简直是在把事情想得太复杂了。

But, but, but, but at some deep level, like we're almost over complicating it.

对吧？

Right?

就像我们的祖先在任何社群中都会做这件事。

Like our ancestors in any community we miss to did this.

所以，首先，每次我都感到害怕。

And so like, first of all, I feel fear every time.

每次我都感到紧张。

I feel nervous every time.

我在想，会有人来吗？

I feel like, is anyone going to show up?

我感到恶心反胃。

I feel sick to my stomach.

我开始对最亲近的人发脾气。

I start snapping at my most beloveds.

感到这样其实很正常。

It's really normal to feel.

关键是愿意承受这种焦虑，并对自己说：哦，我一定是在乎这件事的。

It's that being willing to hold that anxiety and be like, oh, I must care about this.

所以第一步是说：嘿，如果你因为在意这件事而感到一些恐惧，这难道不是很有趣吗？

So the first is to say like, Hey, if you're feeling some amount of fearless because you care about this, how how interesting?

并培养承受部分焦虑的能力。

And build the ability to hold some of that anxiety.

但第二步是真正从你认为会令人愉快的事情开始，因为这能给你带来能量。

But the second is literally start with something you think would be delightful because that's gonna give you some energy.

和别人一起组织一些活动。

Co host something with people.

我认识一个人，他得到了一瓶香槟大瓶装。

I know of a guy who got a champagne magnum.

他多年前在一家广告公司工作。

He worked at an ad agency, like, years ago.

他的老板不喝酒，所以他继承了这瓶巨大的香槟。

His boss didn't drink, and so he, like, inherited this, like, massive bottle of champagne.

他心想：我该怎么处理这东西呢？

He's like, what the heck am I gonna do with this?

于是他邀请了八位朋友，带着这瓶香槟一起分享，而那瓶香槟的年份是2004年。

And he he invited eight friends and the bottle to share it, and the year of the bottle was 2004.

参加派对的入场条件是带来一个你2004年的生活故事。

And the price of entry to the party was to bring a story from your life from the year 2004.

这很酷。

That's cool.

这让整个夜晚变得特别。

It makes the night.

米歇尔·拉普里，我在一本书里读到过他。

Michel Lapri, I read about this in the book.

他因为工作经常出差，想为自己的圣诞树装饰一下，让树更漂亮。

He he travels a lot for his work, and he wanted to trim his tree, you know, dress his tree for the holidays, for Christmas.

他邀请了12位彼此并不都认识的朋友，提前每人寄来两张幸福时刻的照片。

And he invited 12 friends who didn't all know each other to send two moments of happiness two photos, moments of happiness, from their year ahead of time.

当他们到达时，桌上摆着剪刀、装饰品，还有他们寄来的幸福时刻照片。

When they arrived, on the table was, like, scissors, ornaments, and their photos, their moments of happiness.

啊，太棒了。

An inherent oh, wow.

你今年卖了一套房子？

You sold a house this year?

哇。

Wow.

我都不知道你穿紧身裤看起来这么棒。

I didn't know you looked so great in those tights.

天哪。

Oh my goodness.

我不知道你去潜水了。

I didn't know you went underwater scuba diving.

这为整个晚上的氛围和对话创造了背景。

It created the context and the conversation for the whole night.

他可以某种程度上消失不见。

He can kinda disappear.

剩下的时间里，大家做装饰品，然后谈论过去一年的事，就像一场演出。

And the rest of the night, ornament making, then conversations about the past year, it's like a play.

它自有其节奏，人们也会感觉自己是其中的一部分。

It kind of it it it goes its own way, people then feel like they're also part of it.

我们一直从你作为聚会的主办者或参加者的角度来讨论，这意味着你要么被邀请参加聚会，要么有资格邀请别人。

We've sort of been talking from the perspective of you are hosting or attending a gathering, which implies you've been invited to one or you have the people to invite to one.

有一个相当著名的统计数据：在2021年，近一半的美国人表示自己只有三个或更少的密友。

It's a pretty notorious statistic that in 2021, almost half of Americans reported having three or fewer close friends.

有很多人其实很想被邀请参加活动，但却没有收到邀请。

There are many people maybe who would like to be invited to things who aren't.

你对那些确实想参加的人有什么建议吗？

What do you recommend to people who yeah.

如果他们被邀请了，这一定会很棒。

This should be great if they were invited.

如果他们觉得自己有可以邀请的人，这本来会很棒，但他们首先得跨越社交连接的鸿沟？

This should be great if they felt like they had the people to invite, but they are first have to cross a a chasm of social connection?

首先，是的。

To go into your first of all, yes.

当然。

Absolutely.

如果你渴望与社区建立联系，首先，请保护好这份渴望。

If you feel a need and a desire to have connection in a community, first of all, like, protect that.

不要为此感到羞愧。

Don't be embarrassed of it.

你并不奇怪，也不是因为你不够坚强。

You're not weird or like, it's not because you're like not strong enough.

这是一种渴望。

Like that is a yearning.

这是一种美好而值得保护、滋养和培育的渴望。

That is a beautiful yearning to protect and to feed and to grow.

然后去看看你的社区。

And then look into your community.

顺便说一下，公共空间就是为此而存在的。

I mean, by the way, this is what public spaces are for.

图书馆也是为此而存在的。

This is what libraries are for.

对吧？

Right?

真正的宫殿是人民。

Palaces are the people.

埃里克·克莱宁伯格那本关于图书馆如何作为重要社会第三空间的精彩著作。

Eric Kleinenberg's beautiful book about how libraries serve as this, you know, really important social third space.

大多数图书馆都有公共活动。

Most libraries have public programming.

再说了，去参加聚会吧。

Again, go meet up.

顺便说一下，有很多机构提供免费活动，我这里说的不是去博物馆或上课。

By the way, there are many institutions that have free programming where I'm not talking about going to a museum, going to a class.

所以，去看看那些已有社区基础但对公众开放的地方。

And so looking at places where there's preexisting community, but that's open to the public.

对吧？

Right?

整个目的就是，我们希望有更多人参与。

The whole purpose is like, we want more people.

出现、到场、持续不断地重复出现，实际上正是建立信任的方式。

Presence and showing up and being consistent and going over and over and over again actually just builds trust.

对吧？

Right?

亲近建立信任。

Proximity builds trust.

所以去参与、去强调它，把它当作一种聚会的承诺，使之成为一种优先事项，而不是可有可无的东西，而是从根本上对你的生活至关重要的事。

And so going and treating it, highlighting it, making it like you are with this gathering resolution, making it a priority and something that is not a nice to have, that's something that is, like, fundamentally crucial to your life.

因此，我们要同时关注这场对话的两个层面：一是我个人对聚会的兴趣，二是我对聚会所持有的公共关怀。

So keeping two levels of this conversation in mind, one is my own interest in gathering, and the other is a a civic interest I have in in in gathering.

你在这里多次提到个人和个人主义。

Something that you have mentioned a few times here is individuals and individualism.

你提到的晚期资本主义，我觉得这个概念没什么意义，但我确实认为我们正生活在晚期个人主义的时代。

And everybody talks about late capitalism, which I don't think is a concept that makes a lot of sense, but I do think we live in late individualism.

我们已经接近一个临界点。

We have gotten to an almost terminal point

呃。

Ugh.

我同意你的观点。

I agree with you.

关于我们如何理解自己作为个体，以及我们在此处作为个体表达与实现的目标。

In how much we understand ourselves as individuals and our purpose here as individual expression and fulfillment.

我想知道，在你所了解的文化和你所探索的聚会中，你是如何看待我们如今形成个体主义的方式，以及这种方式为我们生活在、身处或创造社群时带来的张力？

I'm curious in, you know, with the cultures you know and the the gatherings you've explored, like, how you think about the way we form our individualism now and the tensions that creates for us than living in, being in, or creating community.

我的意思是，你可能在听的时候会想，难道这不就是唯一的生存方式吗？

I mean, you may be listening to this and thinking, well, isn't that the only way to be?

那你还打算如何构建社会呢？

Like, how else would you structure society?

我想到了很多例子，在这些例子中，无论你是从宗教角度，还是从追求意义的角度来看，社会或哲学的设计都是基于彼此的。

And I think of so many examples in which, again, whether you think of it religiously or whether you think of it as, like, the pursuit of purpose, where the design of the philosophy or of the society is based on each other.

对吧？

Right?

我记得雷娜·科恩，你曾经在节目中邀请过她。

I remember Rayna Cohen, who you've had on the show.

我知道她那本优美的书，《其他重要的他人》。

I know her her beautiful book, The Other Significant Others.

我特别喜欢这本书的一点是，她深入考察了众多不同的社会。

One of the things I loved about that book was she went back in lots of different societies.

我记得许多宗教传统中，神性的体现正是通过他人。

And I remember many religious traditions where a tainliness of God was actually through the other person.

对吧？

Right?

我有一半印度血统，印度有着众多不同的文化和宗教。

I'm half Indian, and there are many, many different cultures and religions that inform India.

在几乎每一种背景下，无论是巴哈伊教、印度教、锡克教还是伊斯兰教，美德与对神的追求都是通过他人、通过社群实现的。

And in almost every context, whether it's Baha'ism, whether it's Hinduism, whether it's Sikhism, whether it's Islam, virtue and attainment of God is through the others, through community.

印地语中有一句谚语：客人即神。

And there's a saying in Hindi, Guest is God.

因此，有许多传统都将神圣性、我们人生目的的意识，指向了他人。

And so there are so many traditions in which the sacredness, the sense of our purpose on earth is the orientation to the other.

顺便说一下，这些社会中的许多都对个人有压迫性，对吧？

And by the way, many of these societies are oppressive to the individual, right?

这也是为什么有这么多移民来到美国的原因。

That there's also a reason why so many immigrants come to America.

就是为了摆脱群体。

It's to sort of, to escape the group.

就是为了逃离那种压迫性的社群，你知道的，是去

It's to escape the, you know, the oppressive community is to

拥有几代同堂的家庭。

have multigenerational this household.

当然。

Absolutely.

几代同堂的家庭。

Multigenerational household.

我的母亲是在七十年代来到这里的。

I mean, my mother came here in the seventies.

她秘密申请了博士项目。

She secretly applied to PhD programs.

她被爱荷华州和弗吉尼亚州的两个项目录取了。

She got into one in Iowa and one in Virginia.

她根本不知道这两者之间有什么区别。

Had no idea that what the difference was.

她恳求父母让她去。

Begged her parents to go.

她是五个孩子中的第三个。

She's a third of five children.

她本应接受包办婚姻。

She was supposed to have an arranged marriage.

值得一提的是，他们家是神智学者，她父亲允许她离开。

They were theosophists, to their credit, her father let her go.

她来到这个国家，部分原因是想思考：对于一位印度女性、印度教徒、排行中间的孩子来说，自我可以是什么样子。

And she came to this country in part to think about what a self could look like for an Indian woman, Hindu, middle child person.

来到这个国家的许多人感到欣喜若狂，他们无比庆幸能拥有一个真正可以思考的空间。

And so many people who come to this country are delighted, are so relieved to have a space, literally just a space to think.

对个人的保护中有着许多美好的方面。

There are beautiful, beautiful parts of the protection of the individual.

对吧？

Right?

西方文明建立在个人权利的基础之上。

Western civilization is based on the right of the individual.

个人至关重要。

The individual deeply matters.

但我们已经走向了极端的个人主义，几乎跌落悬崖，完全忘记了个人也需要群体生活，如果我们不彼此相连、相互依存，我们又是什么呢？

But we have gone to late stage individualism where we've sort of fallen off the cliff and completely forgot that the individual also needs group life, that we are what are we if we are not also through and with one another?

这也很无聊。

It's also boring.

我周围看到的一些现象，甚至在我自己家里也时有发生：一些父母移民到这里，部分是为了寻求更多的自由和更广阔的个人表达空间，但他们却对子女将这种自由推向如此极端感到惊讶、措手不及，甚至在某种程度上感到失望。

Something that I see around me, something that I even see in my own family sometimes is parents who immigrated here in part to find more freedom and more space for individual expression than are surprised or taken aback or or or disappointed on some level to see how far their children take it.

是的

Yeah.

对吧？

Right?

你原本不希望整个多代同堂的家庭

You move from not wanting to have the entire multigenerational family.

住在一起，但到了这里后，你发现除了核心家庭外，其他家庭都不住在一起，甚至常常不在同一个州。

Under one roof, and then you're here and you realize none of the families outside of the nuclear families live under one roof, and often they don't even live in the same states.

我观察到，包括我自己的家庭在内，我父亲从巴西来到这里，而我们在巴西的家人比在这里的多得多。

And I've watched, and including my own to some degree, my father came here from Brazil, and we have much more family in Brazil than we have here.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

我认为在我们所有人当中，某种程度上都渴望着那里那种亲密的家族关系。

And I think actually among all of us to some degree, there's a yearning here for the closeness of the family there.

非常强烈。

Deeply.

我住在离家人整个大陆之遥的地方。

Like, I live across the continent from the rest of my family.

你感觉我们得到了想要的东西，但付出了巨大的代价。

And you feel that we got what we wanted good and hard.

当然。

Absolutely.

你知道，我是混血儿。

You know, I'm biracial.

我妈妈是印度人，我爸爸是白人美国人。

So my mother's Indian, my father's white American.

我记得我最早的一个记忆之一，我不知道他是否还记得，就是我跑去关门。

And I remember one of my earliest memories of my father, I wonder if he would remember this was I went to shut my door.

我当时真的很烦他。

I was like, I was really annoyed with him.

于是我关上门，大喊了一声，他问：‘你干什么呢？’

And, I shut my door and I yelled out and he goes, what are you doing?

我说，我要隐私。

I said, I want privacy.

他打开门说，在印度，根本没有什么隐私可言。

And he opened the door and he goes, in India, there's no such thing as privacy.

我父亲很喜欢被我母亲庞大的印度大家庭包围着。

And my father loved being enveloped by my mother's Indian extended family.

嗯。

Mhmm.

对吧？

Right?

这种多代同堂的生活，他一直都很向往。

This multigenerational, and he always longs for it.

还有这种想法，比如，我想要隐私吗？

And this idea of, like, do I want privacy?

而不是，我是不是想要隐私。

And not do I want privacy.

在家庭、关系以及婆媳关系中，隐私的恰当角色是什么？

What is the right role of privacy in a family, in a relationship, to our in laws?

我们该分享什么，不该分享什么？

What do we share or not?

那个瞬间，我现在反复回想起，尤其是和我的孩子们在一起时，因为这其实是一个深刻的问题：自我与我们之间、个体与他人之间的平衡点在哪里？

That actual moment, I've come back to over and over and over again now with my children because it's actually a deep question, which is like, where is the right balance between the I and the we, between the self and the other?

我们究竟该如何做到这一点？

How do we actually do this?

但我认为提出这个问题很重要。

But I think it's important to ask the question.

今年我最喜欢的一本书是《阳光和索尼娅的孤独》。

One of my favorite books by far this year was The Loneliness of Sunny and Sonia.

这书太美了。

It's so beautiful.

我的心里深深被它触动。

It's so I mean, it sits in my heart.

是的，我也会想到这个。

Like, I think about it Me too.

每周都会想几次。

A couple times a week.

我也是。

Me too.

但这全都是关于这一点的。

But it's all about It is.

这场舞蹈。

This dance.

哦，很高兴你提到这个。

Oh, I'm so happy you're bringing this up.

父母将孩子送入美国，让他们去追寻并实现自己的命运，这种自豪感。

Of the pride of the parent sending kids out into America where they can find these destinies and fulfill them.

但同时，意识到自己在某种程度上造成了这种距离，内心充满失望。

And the disappointment in the distance knowing that in some ways you caused it.

而在孩子这一方，同样地，我有这种感受。

And then on the part of the kids and and again, like, I feel this.

我住在离我父母很远的地方，我们搬到这里部分是为了靠近我妻子的家人，但这恰恰说明了如今的选择有多么艰难。

I'm across the country from my parents' age, and we're partially here to be near to my wife's family, but that just speaks to how impossible now the choices are.

是的。

Yeah.

对吧？

Right?

我们不可能同时住在两个家庭附近。

We can't live near both families.

他们住在国家的两端。

They live on opposite sides of the country.

没错。

Yep.

所以你会感受到这种失落。

And so you feel the loss.

我觉得其中一个原因，你知道，我很喜欢那本书，她真的非常聪明。

And I think one of the reasons, you know, I love that book and it's, she's so brilliant.

作者是基兰·德赛。

It's by Kiran Desai.

书的开篇场景是祖父母坐在阳台上，九十年代在印度北方邦阿拉哈巴德的早晨，他们有些担忧地聊着。

And the opening scene is the grandparents are sitting on this balcony, and they're sort of, like, worrying in the morning in Allahabad, like, in Northern Uttar Pradesh in India in the nineties.

他们在担心午餐厨师会做些什么。

And they're worrying about, like, what the cook will make over lunch.

突然电话响了，是他们在佛蒙特州读书的孙女索尼娅在哭。

And a phone rings and it's their granddaughter, Sonia, studying in Vermont, crying.

祖母问：她为什么哭啊？

And the grandmother's like, but why is she crying?

他说：我不知道。

And he says, I don't know.

她说她感到孤单。

She says she's lonely.

但她为什么会感到孤独呢？

But why would she be lonely?

对吧？

Right?

她和祖母说，她在那所学校的食堂吃墨西哥菜。

And she he and the grandmother's like, she has Mexican food at that school cafeteria.

她吃一种叫得克萨斯-墨西哥菜的东西，你知道的，难以想象，经历了这么多之后，这个被宠坏的小孩——我加了引号——索尼亚居然在佛蒙特州感到孤独。

She has something called Tex Mex at the you know, like, can't imagine after all they've done, like, the spoiled brat, I'm saying that in quotes, Sonia is, like, lonely in Vermont.

这就是整部小说的开篇。

And that's the opening of the entire novel.

我认为基兰·德赛如此美妙的地方在于，她彻底打破了‘东方疏离、西方孤独’这一神话。

And I think what is so beautiful about what Kieran Desai does is she basically, like, puts a jackhammer to this myth that the East disconnected and that the West is lonely.

在我看来，索尼娅和桑尼的孤独，实际上是东方的孤独，因为他们在家族中不被理解，角色被固定，无法真正成为个体，也无法建立真正的‘我-你’关系，用我们之前的话来说。

To me, the loneliness of Sonya and Sunny is actually that the East is lonely because they are unknown within their own families and that their roles are stuck and that there's no way to actually be an individual or to actually have an I vow relationship, to use our early language.

而西方的孤独，则源于过度的个人主义。

And the West is lonely because it's the hyper individualism.

这是一本美妙的书，她通过角色展现了从压迫性的‘我们’到压迫性的‘我’的整个历程。

And it's a beautiful book where she actually, through her characters, looks at the entire journey between the oppressive we to the oppressive I.

你对这本书的理解比我深刻多了。

So your read of that book is so much deeper than mine.

所以我真的很高兴能听到你这么说。

So I'm so glad I got I to

我有很多相关的感受，你知道的，我真的很能感同身受。

I have a lot related you know, I my I could really relate to that.

太好了，我很高兴能从你这里听到这些。

Well, I'm so glad I actually got to hear that from you.

有趣的是，你提到了另一件事，我觉得这很有趣，某种程度上也反映了其中的经济问题。

It's funny because you brought up something else that I think that's interesting and and speaks in a strange way to the economics of it all.

对吧？

Right?

你刚才提到，这本书的很大一部分都围绕着厨师和家政人员展开。

You just mentioned how much of the book it revolves around the cooks and the housekeepers.

在美国，劳动力成本很高，这非常好。

And in America, where the cost of labor is is high, which is wonderful.

这正是我们富裕的原因。

It's how we're rich.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

你没有这种情况，这就又回到了你自己做所有事情的问题上。

You don't have that, which circles back to the and then you're doing everything yourself.

对吧？

Right?

你要自己做饭，照顾孩子，而且没有多代同堂的家庭结构来分担负担，其中一些人全职工作，一些人则不工作。

You're cooking, and you're caring for the kids, and you're not in an intergenerational household where the weight can be distributed among different people, some of whom are working full time, some of whom are not.

你通常得待在家里，通常是女性。

You have to stay at home, usually women.

对。

Yes.

总得有所取舍。

Something's gotta give.

总得有所取舍。

Something's gotta give.

在我看来，让我们拥有社区、拥有待客之道的，是……

And and it seems to me that what gives us community, what gives us hosting

百分之百。

100%.

独处更容易。

It is easier to be alone.

我们确实这么说，但这其实令人痛心。

Well, we say that, and it's actually devastating.

对吧？

Right?

我应该说，简而言之，在当下这个问题上，独处确实更轻松。

I should say short, it is easier on the question of the day to be alone.

是的。

Yes.

比如，如果美国人不再更多地聚集，如果我们不采取多种方式来增进联系，我们就会进一步滑向威权主义，因为我们实际上彼此并不了解。

Like, if if Americans don't gather more, if we and there's so many ways to do it, we will slide even more into authoritarianism because we actually don't know each other.

对吧？

Right?

每一位法律专家都基本认为，对抗威权主义的良方就是建立联系——了解你的邻居，明白嘿，他们真的有那么糟糕吗？

Every legal expert basically says the antidote to authoritarianism is connection, is knowing your neighbors, is knowing that, hey, how bad could they be?

他们的第一场音乐会是托尼·布拉克顿的演出。

Their first concert was a Tony Braxton concert.

对吧？

Right?

正是这些微小的社会纽带。

It's it's these tiny little social bridges.

而现代生活的一部分，我认为，就是不再假定一定存在一种 Hosting 的方式。

And part of modern life, I think, is not assuming that there's a way to host.

不要以为非得搞个盛大的晚宴，或者你心中任何一种聚会的模式，才叫聚集。

Not assuming I almost wanna, like, go over there and, like, get this framework of, a fancy dinner party or whatever your mental model is of, like, what it means to gather out of your head.

长期以来有一种观点认为，专制主义或极权主义是建立在孤独之上的。

So there's a a long running argument that authoritarianism or totalitarianism is built on loneliness.

这是汉娜·阿伦特在《极权主义的起源》中一句非常著名的话，当我在这档节目中念出这句话时，收到了很多政治学家的邮件，他们说：我们已经证伪了这个观点。

It's a very famous quote from Hannah Arendt's The Origins of Totalitarianism, which when I read it out on the show, I got a bunch of emails from political scientists be like, we've disproven that.

我真期待看到那些骂我的邮件。

Can't wait for the hate mail.

还有黄油。

And butter.

人们喜欢就这个话题争论。

People like to argue about it.

是的。

Yeah.

但我最近从另一个角度思考这个问题，因为我能想到美国许多社区，比如那些非常支持特朗普的社区，它们的组织结构比我的要紧密得多。

But I've been thinking about this from a different perspective because I can come up lots of examples of communities in America that have been, let's say, very pro Trump and are much structured than mine is.

对吧？

Right?

福音派教会 overwhelmingly 支持特朗普，而且在聚集和有组织的社区建设方面，远胜于布鲁克林创意阶层。

Evangelical churches are overwhelmingly pro Trump and and better at much of the gathering and and structured community than, you know, Brooklyn Creative Class.

当然。

Absolutely.

顺便说一句，特朗普是个非常擅长组织聚会的人。

By the way, Trump is a great gatherer.

他是个很棒的主人。

He's a great host.

你这话是什么意思？

So what do mean by that?

特朗普刚起步的时候，有个节目，我忘了叫什么名字，记者们会到处去参加所有的集会。

Trump when I first started, there was a there was a show that was called I forget what it called, but these reporters would go around and like go to all the rallies.

这是在2016年。

This is in 2016.

他们去了特朗普的集会，我看了，也许叫马戏团吧。

And they went to a Trump rally and I watched, maybe it's called the circus.

我看了，我看到了排队的人群。

I watched I I I saw the line.

我看到集会外面像是个派对。

I saw it was a party outside the rally.

我进去了。

I went in.

他们亲身体验了。

They experienced it.

这是一个临时的平行世界。

It it is a temporary alternative world.

他在创造一个你希望成为其中一员的世界。

You he's creating the world you wish you were a part of.

这里有周边商品。

There is merch.

感觉很有趣。

It felt fun.

感觉充满活力。

It felt vibrant.

它充满生机。

It's alive.

他是这样的，我的意思是，我只是从社会学的角度来看。

He's I mean, I'm just look sociologically.

你可能不喜欢他所代表的任何东西。

You may not like anything he stands for.

他是个出色的主持人。

He is an excellent host.

我认为，这触及了你说的一个更有趣的前提：聚会的理由应该是可以争议的。

This, I think, gets to something that you say this one of your more interesting premises for being a good host, which is that the reason for a gathering should be disputable.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这不仅仅是说。

It's not just, hey.

我们所有人聚在一个房间里。

We're all getting together in a room.

嗯。

Mhmm.

某种程度上，特朗普的聚会是非常有争议的。

In a way, a Trump gathering is very disputable.

百分之百。

A 100%.

你必须认同唐纳德·特朗普，而很多人并不认同他。

You have to agree on Donald Trump, And, you know, and a lot of people don't agree on on him.

所以我想请你谈谈争议性，以及为什么你认为它对聚会如此重要。

So I'd like you to talk a bit about disputability and why you think it's so important for gatherings.

当你为一切而聚会时，其实就像是在为无物而聚会。

When you're gathering about everything, you're kinda gathering about nothing.

当我真正开始研究聚会的艺术时，我的目标是揭开谜团，让任何人都能创造有意义且具有变革性的聚会。

And when I actually started researching for the art of gathering, I wanted to basically demystify how anyone can create a meaningful transformative gathering.

你不需要一栋豪华的房子。

You don't need a fancy house.

你不需要精致的餐具。

You don't need the right silverware.

你不需要是个外向的人。

You don't need to be an extrovert.

我采访了一百多位被公认为能创造变革性聚会的聚会组织者，比如冰球教练、合唱团指挥。

And I interviewed over a 100 types of gatherers who other people always credit with creating transformative gatherings, a hockey coach, a choir conductor.

他们都有两个共同点。

And they all had two things in common.

第一，他们心中并没有固定的概念，认为冰球训练或合唱排练必须是什么样子。

One was they didn't have a mental model in their head of what a hockey practice has to look like or what a choir practice has to look like.

第二，他们能够接受自己不可能让每个人都喜欢。

But the second thing is they were okay not being for everybody.

他们能够接受一个并非所有人都认同的有争议的目的。

They were okay for having a disputable purpose that not everyone would agree with.

当你真正考虑把人们聚集在一起时，首先要问：我为什么要做这件事？

When you are actually thinking about bringing people together, to start by asking, Why do I want to do this?

或者，这个社区或这个工作场所的需求是什么？

Or, What is the need in this community or in this workplace?

当你真正思考自己的具体有争议的目的时，它能帮助你从头到尾决定谁应该参加、谁不应该参加，以及在哪里举行。

And when you actually think about what your specific disputable purpose is, it helps you all the way downstream figure out who should be there, who should not be there, where should this be.

一个有争议的目的，简单来说，就是让人们明白这个活动的意义所在。

And a disputable purpose just basically allows people to understand what this is for.

我们来实时操作一下。

Let's do this in real time.

今年我想举办安息日晚餐。

I wanna host Shabbat dinners this year.

如果我要为我想举办的聚会类型命名，那就是这个。

If I was to name the main kind of gathering I wanna do, it's that.

那这个的有争议版本会是什么？

What would be the disputable version of that?

什么不是呢？

What would not be?

所以我会先退一步问，你为什么想举办安息日晚餐？

So I'd first take a step back and say, why do you wanna host a Shabbat dinner?

你的目的是什么？

What is your purpose?

你的需求是什么？

What is your need?

你真正寻求的是什么？

What is it that you're seeking?

我想建立一种安息日的实践。

Well, I wanna build a Shabbat practice.

我早就想这么做了。

I've wanted to do that for a long time.

我同时在更接近和更远离，但我已经在这方面对自己有所提升，减少了使用电子设备，建立了一些结构，并有意不去以我平时的方式干预世界。

I get closer and further at the same time, but I've gotten better at it for myself, staying off electronics, building some structures, having the intention not to act upon the world in the way I normally do.

是的。

Mhmm.

但我也意识到，如果没有社群的支持，这不可能成为真正的实践。

But I also recognize that that cannot be a real practice if it does not have community around it.

你所说的安息日实践指的是什么？

And what do you mean by a Shabbat practice?

告诉我你的界限。

Give me your boundaries.

对你来说，这意味著什么？

What does that mean to you?

我希望每周有一段二十四小时的休息时间。

I want a twenty four hour period in the week when I rest.

是的。

Mhmm.

实际上，这是从犹太精神的角度来说的。

Actually, in the the Jewish spiritual sense.

我之所以觉得安息日非常动人，原因之一是，决定你能做什么、不能做什么的标准，在于你是否带着创造、改变、操控或作用于世界的意图去行动，是的。

The thing I find very moving about Shabbat among other things is the idea that what decides what you can and can't do is whether you are trying to undertake that action with the intention of creating, of changing, of manipulating, of acting upon the world Mhmm.

而不是接受世界本来就是完美或神圣的，并且只是在这一天里安然生活。

Versus accepting the world as perfect or holy the way it is and simply living in it for a day.

是的。

Mhmm.

你有没有想过，你希望和谁一起这样做？

And do you have a sense of who you would like to do that with?

没有。

No.

因为这实际上一直是我面临的一个问题。

Because and this has actually been a problem for me.

是的。

Mhmm.

是的。

Mhmm.

我对这一点有更具体的感受，而我对自身需求的理解在某种程度上似乎过于争议性了。

I have a much more specific sense of this and that people my sense of what I want here is in some ways like too disputable.

这并不是我的孩子们想要的。

It is not what my children want.

他们希望时时刻刻都能主动改变世界。

They would like to act upon the world at all times.

我不想替我妻子表达她的想法，但她有自己的日程和需求；然后，你知道的，你邀请别人来，但他们并没有花太多时间阅读。

I don't wanna speak for my wife's interest, but she has her own schedule and and needs, then, you know, you're inviting people over, and they've not spent as much time reading

是的。

Mhmm.

亚伯拉罕·约书亚·赫舍尔，就像你读过的那样。

Abraham Joshua Heschel as you have.

是的。

Mhmm.

而且，你知道，我不希望这仅仅是我只邀请其他犹太人参加的事情。

And, you know, and I don't want it to just be necessarily a thing that I only invite other Jewish people to.

而且我认识的大多数犹太人也未必对这个有这种联系。

And even most Jewish people I know don't necessarily have the relationship to this.

他们希望我们更注重内在，或者，你知道，没那么强烈。

They've wanted us to have a much more intense in mind or, you know, less so.

所以，没错，这确实是让我犹豫的一件事。

So no, that has actually been one thing that has stopped me.

是的。

Yeah.

因为我不想把我正在追寻的这种奇特探索强加给其他人。

Because I don't want to impose this weird search I'm on on everyone else.

我的意思是，对我来说，这是一个很棒的问题，因为它触及了在许多宗教传统中，人们离开了教堂、会堂或寺庙，某种程度上试图自己创造一种集体实践，然后才明白为什么会有教堂和寺庙。

I mean, this to me, it's a beautiful question because it kind of gets to, you know, in many religious traditions, people have left the church synagogue temple and sort of in some ways try to create their own collective practice and then realize why there's a church and a temple.

对吧？

Right?

基础设施和制度实际上是很重要的。

It was like the infrastructure, the institutions actually matter.

这是一种共同的集体力量。

It's a force shared collective.

我的意思是，如果你正在听，并且在考虑组织一个定期的聚会，无论是每周还是每月一次，这里有一些能让团体顺利开展的要素。

I mean, I would, and if you're all listening and thinking about starting a gathering that you do regularly, whether it's a week or every month, here are elements that allow groups to take off.

明白吗？

Okay?

第一点是，有一本很美的书，叫做《小群体的动态》。

The first is, there's a beautiful book called, it's something called the Dynamics of Small Groups.

我的意思是，这本书非常枯燥，但基本上来说，

I mean, it's it's very nerdy, But basically That

这听起来真不错。

does sound beautiful.

对我来说，这很美。

It's beautiful to me.

欢迎来到我的大脑。

Welcome to my brain.

那本书的核心要素之一是，它探讨了什么因素能够促进长期的群体承诺。

One of the core elements of that book is they look at what allows for nurturing long term group commitment.

而我认为，这背后有一条神奇的公式。

And there's what I consider a magical equation.

一个具有长期承诺的群体具备两个特征：每个成员都觉得自己对群体有重要贡献，同时群体也让人觉得它对每个成员有重要价值。

A group that has long term commitment to it has two things true about it: that every member feels like they're valuably contributing to the group, and that the group feels like it's valuably contributing to the member.

明白吗？

Okay?

就这么简单。

That's it.

而我认为，关于你们的安息日晚餐，我建议你先打造一个容器。

And part of what I think for you to think about the Shabbat dinner is I would create a container.

我会去尝试。

I would experiment.

我会思考你最需要的是什么。

I would think about what you most need.

我会从邀请开始。

I would start with the invitation.

我会考虑你最希望谁参与进来。

I would think about who you most would want to be part of this.

我会思考你是否希望每晚都是同一群人，这可是巨大的承诺。

I I would think about if you are wanting the same people the same night, which is a huge commitment.

如果是这种情况，那么问题就变成了：怎样才能让他们真正地为这个活动做出贡献？可能你需要六到八个人，或者最多十四个人，提前花大量时间思考：你愿意和我一起达成这个共同的集体愿景吗？

And in that case, if the question is what would allow them to meaningfully contribute to it, it's probably six or eight or maybe 14 people that you do a lot of work ahead of time to think about, would you like to have this shared collective resolution with me?

这是一种有意识地构建社区的方式。

And so that's one version where it's actually building community intentionally.

把这一点简化为：是什么让这个目标成为有争议的核心？

Boil that down to what makes that the disputable purpose.

因为这个有争议的核心目标是你书中如此重要的部分，我想找到它。

Because the disputable purpose is such an important part of your book that I wanna I wanna find it

我的意思是，我认为安息日这个概念本身，虽然我不是犹太人，但据我理解，安息日本身就具有特定的争议性目的。

I mean, I think that this I think it I think actually inherently the category of Shabbat, I'm not Jewish, but so from my understanding of it, is Shabbat in and of itself has a specific disputable purpose.

这里有一个界限。

There is an edge.

安息日为这一周创造了空白空间。

Shabbat creates the negative space in the week.

对吧？

Right?

关闭手机，这本身就是一个明确且有争议的目的。

It is a specific and disputable purpose to turn off your phone.

在现代生活中，无论发生什么，每周都固定在同一地点，这本身就是一个明确且有争议的目的。

It is a specific and disputable purpose to be at this in modern life, to be at the same place, same week, no matter what may come.

一次又一次地去同一个地方，这本身也是一个明确且有争议的目的吗？

Is It a specific and disputable purpose to go to the same house over and over and over again.

但这并不适合每个人。

And it's not for everybody.

所以我认为，如果你愿意的话，可以建立一个非常坚实明确的界限，比如说：我是否能发现，你所在社区里是否也有其他人感受到类似的吸引？

And so I think you could create, if you wanted to, there's one version where you create a really thick and strong boundary and you say, actually, I'm going to see, are there other people, and there probably are in your community, who feel a similar tug?

他们必须是犹太人吗？

Do they need to be Jewish?

他们必须不是犹太人吗？

Do they not?

你有没有一些不可妥协的准则？

Do you have specific nonnegotiables?

我其实是在给你一份社会契约，这份契约必须成立，人们才会愿意参与。

I'm basically giving you your social contract, right, that needs to be true for people to show up.

他们需要准时到场吗？

Do they need to show up on time?

晚上八点点蜡烛——如果你选择点蜡烛的话——这一点重要吗？是否要求所有人都必须到场？

Does the 8PM does the lighting of the candles if you're gonna like candles, does that matter that everyone is there?

他们可以想来的时候才来吗？

Can they come when they want?

对吧？

Right?

这时我开始说，界限是具体且可争议的，你可能觉得建立结构会让你不舒服，但结构实际上提供了清晰度，让人们明白自己该如何参与。

This is when I'm starting to say that boundaries are specific and disputable, and you feel uncomfortable creating structures, but actually structures are such clarity because then people understand where and how do I show up?

或者这是一次像安息日那样的体验，你邀请任何你遇到过的人——比如早上在咖啡店遇到的帕布罗·约翰逊——来参加，但你正在创造一个临时的替代世界：如果你要来我家，这就是我们这里的做法。

Or is this a Shabbat like experience where you are inviting whoever that you've ever met, like Pablo Johnson, you met somebody in the coffee shop in the morning to come, but they're you're creating this temporary alternative world where this is if you're gonna come into my home, this is what we do here.

嗯。

Mhmm.

在不同文化中，被人明确告知这一点是一种极大的解脱。

And across cultures, it's such a relief to be told.

我觉得你和我想讨论的都是这个。

I think you're and I wanna be talking about this both.

这是一个很好的具体例子，但我的意思是它只是用来说明的，因为并不是每个人都想举办安息日晚餐。

It's like a good specific example, but I mean it to be illustrative because not everybody wants to do a Shabbat dinner.

但我听到你在这里梳理出的一点，我认为在主持活动时常常棘手的是：如何在将自己的愿景和需求转化为群体的愿景与要求之间取得平衡。

But one thing that that I do hear you tracing here that I think is tricky in hosting often is the discomfort between making your vision and your needs the group's vision and demands upon the group.

所以，是的，我想要一种脱离日常时间的感觉。

So, yes, I want something that feels like time out of time.

对。

Yep.

对吧？

Right?

但用你的话说，让安息日具有争议性的是，我究竟把它办成一顿晚餐，还是办成一个安息日。

But what makes Shabbat disputatious, to use your term, for for me, is actually whether or not I make it a dinner or make it a Shabbat.

对吧？

Right?

你不应该工作。

You're not supposed to be working.

对吧？

Right?

我可以做的一件事是，在这顿晚餐上禁止谈论工作和政治。

One one thing I could do is say ban all conversation of work and politics at this dinner.

很好的例子。

Great example.

那样的话，它就会变得与原本不同，是的。

And that would make it something different than it would otherwise Yes.

成为。

Be.

作为任何场合的主人，我对强加给他人这种限制和结构感到不适。

And I feel, as a host in any respect, discomfort with that kind of stricture and structure I on other people.

所以，这就演变成了一种社会契约。

So this is where it comes to be a social contract.

人们认为邀请函只是传递时间、地点和日期等后勤信息。

People think invitations are like a carrier of logistics, date, time, and place.

嗯。

Mhmm.

邀请函其实是你小小宪法的开场宣言。

Invitations are your opening salvo of your, of your mini constitution.

我是认真的。

I'm serious.

这是你发出的开场白，表明我要创造一个临时的替代世界。

It's your opening salvo to say, I'm going to create this temporary alternative world.

即使如此，你也能感受到这有多具攻击性。

Even in that, you feel how aggressive that is.

我不觉得。

I don't.

开场白的语言。

The opening salvo language.

是的。

Yeah.

好吧，我的意思是，你的歌剧第一句，不管你用什么隐喻，都是在说：这是我正试图做的事情。

Well, I mean, the, the first line of your opera, like use whatever metaphor you want, which is, this is something I'm trying to do.

顺便说一句，如果你对这个感到不适，我的建议是找一个或两个愿意和你一起做这件事的联合主持人。

And by the way, if you are uncomfortable with this, my advice is to actually find a cohost or find two cohosts that would love to do this with you.

顺便说一句，任何主持过任何团体的人都会告诉你，尤其是那些真正热衷于此的人，你总会遇到新的规范，并开始思考它们。

And by the way, as anybody who runs any group will tell you, like anybody who is really passionate about it, you're going to bump up and like, think about new norms.

你会看到哪些方法有效，哪些无效。

You're going to see what works and see what doesn't work.

因此，你需要培养一种能力，也就是我所说的‘慷慨的权威’——运用你作为主持者的权力，保护与会者彼此不受伤害，执行这些临时制定的规则，并促进他们之间的联系。

And so there is a part of you that may need to grow this muscle of like practicing what I call generous authority, which is using your power of the host to protect the guests from each other, to enforce these pop up rules, to connect them.

如果结构得当，这种美好就会自然浮现，人们可能会意识到：天啊，这是我三年来第一次连续三个小时没看手机。

And then if they're the right structure, this beauty arises, and people may realize like, oh my gosh, this is the first time in three years that I haven't looked at my phone in three hours.

谢谢。

Thank you.

我非常喜欢你用的这个词——‘慷慨的权威’。

I love the term you use, generous authority.

你能详细解释一下这是什么意思吗？

Can you talk through what that is?

所谓慷慨的权威，你知道，人们总以为聚会就是关于连接和爱。

So generous authority, you know, people think gathering is all about connection and love.

聚会也关乎权力，因为所有关系都涉及权力。

Gathering is also about power because all relationships are also about power.

它关乎决策。

It's about decision making.

因此，现代聚会的一个挑战部分在于我们试图不去强加规则，而这源于善意。

And so one of the challenges of modern gathering is in part because we're trying not to impose or, and it comes from a good place.

比如，我有什么资格说我们该怎样聚会，或者该信奉什么神明呢？

Like, who am I to say how we're supposed to gather or what culture we, you know, what God we pray to?

但在现代生活中，我们常常低估了主持人的角色，而只要你选择主持，你就拥有权力。

But often in modern life, we under host and a host has power if you choose to host.

实践我所说的慷慨权威，部分在于运用你的权力为群体谋利，帮助它实现目标，为聚会本身服务，帮助它达成目的。

And part of practicing what I call your generous authority is to use your power for the good of the group to help it achieve its purpose, for the good of the gathering to help it achieve its purpose.

而且，因为你提出了某种安排、创造了某种规则，你应该提前告知大家，这样他们就不会一进来就困惑：这些突然冒出来的规则是什么意思？

And in part, because you are suggesting a thing, you're creating a thing, tell them ahead of time, right, so that they're not coming in and being like, what do you mean these pop up rules?

什么意思？

What do you mean?

我并没有报名参加这个，因为他们也没有报名。

I didn't sign up for this because they didn't sign up for it.

你知道吗，当我和丈夫刚搬到纽约时，我读过一本书。

You know, when when my husband and I first moved to New York, I read this book.

我想那本书叫《文学布鲁克林》，非常书呆子气。

I think it was called maybe it's called Literary Brooklyn, very nerdy.

书中讲述了不同作家在布鲁克林的居住地。

And it was where different writers had lived in Brooklyn.

我特别喜欢那种地理上的追踪方式，就是这本书的地理脉络。

And I loved the tracing, like, so the geographic tracing of that book.

于是，我意识到：我其实不是土生土长的纽约人。

And I, we came up with this idea because I realized, like, I don't really I'm not a native New Yorker.

我对这座城市并不真正了解。

I don't really know the city.

我就想，如果我们每个月花十二个小时，步行探索一个街区，而且不看手机，会怎么样？

I said, what if we, once a month, went and spent twelve hours in a neighborhood on foot and didn't look at our phones?

他听了说，太好了。

And he was like, great.

我们搬到了城里。

We moved to the city.

你们现在有孩子吗？

Do you have kids at this

这个时候

point in

没有

do not

没有孩子。

have kids.

我们搬到了城里，顺便跟一个朋友提了这件事。

And, we moved to the city and, happened to tell a friend about it.

她听了说，这听起来真棒。

And she she was like, that sounds great.

我可以加入吗？

Can I join?

我们说，当然可以。

And we're like, sure.

而且，我们并没有刻意规划，这一切都是自然发生的。

And again, we weren't we were it was organic.

当时确实有真实的需求。

There was a real need.

她也是刚搬到这座城市来的移民。

She also was an immigrant to the city.

她说，是的，我在这里住了四年，除了家和工作的地方，哪儿都没去过。

She's like, yeah, I've lived here for four years, and I've never been anywhere except where I live and where I work.

于是她带了一个朋友来。

So then she brought a friend.

总而言之，五年多来，我们举办了后来被称为‘我在那里日’的活动。

And long story short, over five years, we hosted what ended up being called I Am Here Days.

而且一共有十二个小时。

And there were twelve hours.

如果你要参加，必须早上8点或10点到场，和我们一起用餐，并全程参与。

If you were going to join, you had to come at 8AM or 10AM, join us for the meal, be there the entire time.

不准提前离开，也不准私下协调那些想来去自由的人。

No leaving early, no micro coordinating with people who wanted to pop in and out.

部分原因，again，不是为了控制，而是因为我们想远离手机。

In part, again, wasn't controlling because we were trying to be off our phones.

所以如果你在和别人私下协调，比如有人只想参加下午2点的散步，而我们却在东哈莱姆、因伍德、斯塔滕岛、红钩区各自花了十二个小时。

So if you're micro coordinating with someone who's dropping in for the 2PM walk or whatever, and we spent twelve hours in East Harlem, twelve hours in Inwood, twelve hours in Staten Island, twelve hours in Red Hook.

这些日子真正有趣的地方之一，首先是我们通过不断尝试，摸索出了哪些做法有效、哪些无效，并由此设定了这些界限。

And part of what was really interesting about these days is first, we learned and we created these boundaries as we started bumping against what was working and what wasn't working.

但另一个特别有趣的是头四个小时，不同的人会陆续到来。

But the second thing that was super interesting was the first four hours and different people would come.

有时候人们会带朋友一起来。

Sometimes people would bring friends.

每次总是有六到十二个人。

It was always a group of about six to 12.

十二个人有点多，因为我们找不到一张够大的桌子。

12 was a bit big because we couldn't find a table.

但我们会在公园里小憩。

But we would nap in parks.

我们会做各种各样的事情。

We'd we'd do all sorts of things.

在最初的四个小时里，每个人都情绪很好，表现得非常得体。

And the first four hours, everyone was in a great mood and on their best behavior.

接下来的四个小时，人们常常会分成不同的小组交谈。

Then the next four hours, they'd start people would often split off into different side groups and talk.

到了大约第八个小时，人们开始变得烦躁、疲惫，不再保持良好的行为。

And then, like, by hour sort of eight, people started getting cranky, tired, not on the rest behavior.

有人可能会突然哭起来，因为他们的防备完全放下了，我们会进行一些非常真实、动人的对话。

Someone might burst into tears because all of their guards are down, and we would have these beautiful conversations that were so real.

而一天中第三个阶段的氛围根本不同。

And the timbre of that third third of the day was fundamentally different.

它让人回想起大学宿舍里聊到凌晨两点，或者和朋友闲逛的感觉。

It felt like what it used to feel like to, you know, talk till two in the morning in college room or like to hang out as friends.

在这个实验过程中，我们实际上建立了一些结构。

And so much of what ended up happening as this experiment was we were we created some structures.

有些人说：我不能走。

Some people were like, I can't leave.

我说：是的。

I was like, yeah.

但你不必非来不可。

But you don't have to come.

但这是一件非常特定的事情。

But this is a very specific thing.

我不是在要求你来。

I'm not asking you to come.

但这是一个在特定时期内有效的类别。

But this is a category that worked for a specific period of time.

然后我们有了孩子，就停止了。

And then we had kids, and we stopped it.

那也挺好。

And that was okay too.

你刚才提到的‘我在这里’聚会是如何结束的，我认为这对很多人来说都非常真实，那就是人们可能有了

What you just said about the way the I am here gatherings ended, I think, is very real for a lot of people, which is that people maybe had a

很多孩子。

Many kids.

而且有了孩子。

And and having kids.

意思是半夜有孩子。

Meaning kids at midnight.

并不是说我们在午夜有什么强大的仪式。

Not that we had like a powerful ritual at midnight.

不。

No.

不。

No.

不。

No.

不过，那样也会很有趣。

Although, that would be fun too.

当然。

Absolutely.

我认为有很多人，在有了孩子之前，他们的社交生活、聚会和招待方式都有一定的结构，但孩子来了之后，这一切就被打乱了。

I think there are a lot of people out there who had a structure of their social life, of their gathering, of their hosting before they had kids, and then kids broke it.

现在他们真的不知道该怎么做。

And that now they don't really know what to do.

他们或许知道怎么安排亲子约会，但孩子得睡觉了。

They sort of know how to do a play date maybe, but the kids have to go to bed.

成为父母后，你如何看待那些对孩子们开放但又不完全围绕孩子的聚会？

How do you think about gatherings after becoming parents and and making things open to kids, but not completely about the kids?

我觉得人们在这方面真的很难应对。

I I think people really struggle here.

他们确实很难应对。

They really struggle.

我真的很困扰。

I really struggle.

这简直是个地雷，我首先要这么说。

It is a landmine, I will first say.

看起来可能觉得，哦，这不过是小菜一碟。

Like, it might seem like, oh, this is, child's play.

育儿已经变得政治化了。

Parenting has become political.

育儿方式已经变得极其、极其分裂，包括彼此之间的评判。

Parenting styles has become incredibly, incredibly divided, including judging of one another.

这简直让人发疯。

And it's crazy making.

我的意思是，卫生局局长已经指出，育儿是最新的一场心理健康危机。

I mean, the surgeon general issued, you know, parenting as the latest mental health crisis.

所以我想说几点。

And so I would say a couple of things.

首先，我认为零到三岁是一个与三岁以上完全不同的阶段。

The first is I think that zero to three is a fundamentally different phase versus three and up.

那我先说说零到三岁。

So let me take zero to three first.

首先，我们总听到人们说想要一个育儿社区，但没人愿意成为社区里的一员。

The first is, you know, we keep hearing so much about everybody wants a village, but no one wants to be a villager.

去年左右，《切片》杂志上有一篇很棒的文章，我记不清确切标题了，但大概是‘有孩子的人和没孩子的人还能做朋友吗？’

Like there was this awesome piece in the cut maybe a year ago, and I can't remember the exact title, but it was something like can people with kids and people without kids still be friends?

说‘可以’的一个关键点，就是选择依然愿意参与一个人的转变。

One of the elements of saying, yes, they can, is to choose to still want to be part of a person changing.

所以成为父母也是一种新的身份。

So becoming a parent is also a new identity.

对吧？

Right?

因此，这其中也包括父母与非父母之间的跨差异关系。

And so part of that is also, it's a relationship across difference, being a parent and being a non parent.

跨差异的关系需要对话，也需要互惠。

And relationship across difference needs conversation, and it also needs reciprocity.

那这会是什么样子呢？

So what does that look like?

互惠可能就像，再次强调，如果你真的想融入这种家庭生活，这可是个大前提。

Reciprocity could be like, again, if you want to be part of this family life, that's a big if.

主动提出帮朋友照看孩子一晚，让他们能去约会。

Offering your friends to babysit their kid for a night and letting them go on a date.

然后，有孩子和没孩子的人之间要相互信任，让没孩子的人学会如何换尿布。

And then the pairs being like trusting and teaching the person without a kid how to roll the diaper.