我们的税收制度应该让你愤怒

他们一直保留着隔代转移税。

They keep doing the generation skipping transfer tax.

他们实施了特殊估值规则。

They do the special valuation rules.

我们必须阻止他们。

We gotta stop them.

他们资助了这场运动，以让公众反对遗产税。

And they funded this campaign to turn the public against the estate tax.

他们通过向公众宣传遗产税是一种不道德的死亡税，让人觉得它针对所有人，而不是实际上主要针对富人的遗产税。

And they did so by telling the public that the estate tax was an immoral death tax, making it seem like it came for everyone, right, rather than the estate tax, which definitely had a sort of a a rich people air to it.

所以我只是说，不行。

So I just said, no.

不行。

No.

这是一项死亡税。

This is a death tax.

它影响所有人，尤其对家庭农场和企业造成伤害。

It comes for all, and it particularly harms family farms and businesses.

但他们没有说的是，税法中实际上有许多专门设计来保护家庭农场和企业的条款。

Now what they didn't say was that there are actually a lot of provisions in the tax code specifically designed to protect family farms and businesses.

事实上，国会很难找到真正因遗产税而失去农场的例子。

And indeed, congress had a very hard time finding actual examples of people who actually lost their farms.

他们最常引用的一个人名叫切斯特·菲格彭，他有个农场。

Their favorite person who they used was this fellow by the name of Chester Figpen who had a farm.

这名字真有意思。

What a name.

是的。

Yes.

他是奴隶的孙子，曾在国会作证，说他担心自己死后因遗产税而失去农场。

And he was the grandchild of slaves, and he testified in congress that he was afraid he was going to lose his farm due to the death taxes that were gonna be imposed when he died.

他如此有说服力，以至于共和党人想把这项法案命名为‘切斯特·蒂格彭遗产税废除法案’，因为他是个极具感染力的人物。

He was so effective that Republicans wanted to call it the Chester Thigpen Estate Tax Repeal Act because he was such a compelling figure.

几年后，切斯特·蒂格彭去世了，结果发现他根本不需要缴纳遗产税，因为他的农场远低于免税额度，而且还有其他保护措施。

Well, a few years later, Chester Thigpen dies, and turns out he wasn't subject to the estate tax at all because in fact his farm fell well within the exemption and there were other areas to protect it.

因此，如果真把家庭农场和企业的问题当回事，国会完全可以轻松解决，只需扩大现有的保护措施即可。

So, easily Congress could have easily addressed the family farms and business problem if one sees that as a problem by basically expanding the protections that were already there.

但事实上，他们却利用这个借口，为所有那些拥有巨额继承财富的人——比如马尔斯家族、沃尔顿家族——开脱，让他们能够免税传承财富。

But instead, they were using it as a cover for all of the people, the Mars, the Waltons, all of those people that had massive amounts of inherited wealth, and they wanted to be able to pass it tax free.

明白了。

Okay.

我在你的书里看到这些数字，觉得相当震惊。

So I found these numbers in your book kinda shocking.

2000年，在布什减税之前，美国人提交了12.2万份遗产税申报表。

In 2000, before the Bush tax cuts, Americans filed a 122,000 estate tax returns.

到2010年，这个数字降到了4.7万份。

In 2010, it was 47,000.

2013年，奥巴马的税改方案生效后，进一步降至32,300份。

In 2013, after Obama's tax plan went into effect, it was 32,300.

然后在特朗普之后，2021年只有6,158份遗产税申报表，其中仅有2,584份实际需要缴税。

Then after Trump, there were 6,158 in 2021, of which only 2,584 were actually taxable.

所以，要么从2000年到2021年，富人不死了，要么他们不再富了，要么我们真的把这项税制几乎彻底废除了。

So either between 2000 and 2021, rich people stopped dying, or they stopped being rich people, or we really gutted this thing within an inch of its life.

是的。

Yeah.

我选第三种。

I'm going with number three.

所以到2024年，美国最富有的1%人群控制了该国巨额财富，达50万亿美元。

So in 2024, the richest 1% of Americans controlled massive amounts of the country's wealth, $50,000,000,000,000.

然而，遗产税本应适用于所有死亡时的财产转移和赠与，而赠与行为其实非常普遍，正如我提到的，这些手段都涉及大量赠与。

And yet the estate tax that was designed to apply to all transfers at death and by gift and there's a lot of gifting that goes on because, as I mentioned, those techniques all involve gifting.

因此，这些人进行了大量的赠与行为。

So lots and lots of gifting is going on by these people.

2024年，40%的遗产税仅从美国最富有的1%人群所拥有的50万亿美元财富中筹集了300亿美元。

The 40% estate tax only raised $30,000,000,000 in 2024 out of $50,000,000,000,000 wealth owned by the richest 1% of Americans.

这几乎是微不足道的。

It is practically nothing.

这个数额是埃隆·马斯克一天内赚了又亏掉的，而且他可能根本没注意到。

It is an amount that Elon Musk has both earned and lost in just a single day and probably hardly even noticed.

所以，显然遗产税并没有发挥我们以为它该有的作用。

So, clearly, the estate tax is not doing what we think it's doing.

嘿。

Hey.

我是乔尔。

I'm Joel.

我是来自《纽约时报》游戏的朱丽叶。

And I'm Juliet from New York Times games.

我们在这里和人们聊聊游戏。

And we're out here talking to people about games.

你玩《纽约时报》的游戏。

You play New York Times games.

是的。

Yes.

每天。

Every day.

你有最喜欢的吗？

Do you have a favorite?

Connections。

Connections.

它只是让你思考。

It just makes you think.

我觉得它给了我弹性。

I feel like it gives me elasticity.

把四个四人组分出来。

Create four groups of four.

这其实是个挺棒的游戏。

This is actually a pretty cool game.

你最喜欢的游戏是什么？

What's your favorite game?

填字游戏。

The crossword.

填字游戏？

The crossword?

我和我哥哥一起玩。

I do it with my brother.

我们有时候会做周四的，但我不确定。

We get Thursday sometimes, but I don't know.

我自己就能做周四的。

I can do Thursday on my own.

我觉得我在学习。

I feel like I'm learning.

我觉得我在完成一些事情。

I feel like I'm accomplishing something.

我喜欢完成的时候。

I like the when you finish it.

我家人玩Wordle，我们有个很大的群聊。

My family does Wordle, we have a huge group chat.

比如，我奶奶玩Wordle。

Like, my grandma does Wordle.

你奶奶玩Wordle。

Your grandma does Wordle.

哦，每天都玩。

Oh, every day.

是的。

Yeah.

你对Wordle有什么强烈看法吗？

Do you have a Wordle hot take?

你应该从一个策略上很糟糕的词开始，这样会更有趣。

You should start with a word that's strategically bad to make it more fun.

所有的

All of

这些游戏都很有趣，因为它们就像五到十分钟的小休息。

these games are so fun because it's like a little five to ten minute, like, break.

我爱这些游戏。

I love these games.

是的。

Yeah.

纽约时报游戏订阅用户可以完全访问我们所有的游戏和功能。

New York Times game subscribers get full access to all our games and features.

现在访问 nytimes.com/games 订阅，享受特别优惠。

Subscribe now at nytimes.com/games for a special offer.

这听起来可能很傻，但我认为值得聊一聊。

This will sound stupid, but I think it's worth talking about.

为什么会有不同的速率呢？是的。

Why are there different rates Yeah.

针对不同类型的收入吗？

For different kinds of income?

为什么我们对待在工作中赚取的收入、出售股票所得的收入、以及有人去世后留给我们的遗产或他人赠予的收入，都区别对待呢？

Why do we treat income earned at our job, income earned by selling stock, and, you know, income earned when somebody dies and, you know, leaves everything to us or income given to us as a gift?

为什么我们要对它们区别对待？

Why do we treat them all differently?

我们理论上究竟想实现什么？

What what what are we trying in theory Right.

实现什么？

To achieve?

安德鲁·梅隆，这位以激烈反税著称的人物，认为

Andrew Mellon, who is was known as a tremendous anti tax crusader, felt that

该死的强盗资本家。

Damed robber baron.

是的。

Yes.

同时，作为多位政府内阁的财政部长，他认为规则应该是：劳动收入适用最低税率，而投资收入适用最高税率。

And also, secretary of the treasury and for a number of administrations, felt that the rules should be that income is taxed at the lowest rates, and investments are taxed at the highest rates.

因为赚取工资收入的人处境最为脆弱，他们更需要较低的税率，而那些仅仅依靠投资收益的人则不然。

Because people earning income, they are in the most precarious situation, and they are likely to need the lower rates as opposed to people who are just sitting back and relying on their investments.

让让

Let let

让我念一下这里的引文。

me read the quote here.

我记下了这段话。

I I took this down.

这出自你的书。

It's in your book.

这是来自安德鲁·梅隆1924年所著的《税收：人民的事务》。

This is from Andrew Mellon's 1924 book, taxation, the people's business.

他写道：对工资、薪金或投资收入实行较轻的征税，其公平性是毋庸置疑的。

He writes, the fairness of taxing more lightly income from wages, salaries, or from investments is beyond question.

在第一种情况下，收入是不确定且短暂的。

In the first case, the income is uncertain and limited in duration.

疾病或死亡会使其消失，年老则会削弱它。

Sickness or death destroys it, and old age diminishes it.

这里，他谈论的是工资。

Here, he's talking about wages.

在另一种情况下，收入的来源是持续的。

In the other, the source of income continues.

一个人在世时可以处置其收入，它也会传给他的继承人。

The income may be disposed of during a man's life, and it descends to his heirs.

安德鲁·梅隆的意思是，对工资收入征收较轻的税，而对投资收入征收较重的税，这一点毫无疑问。

That Andrew Mellon was saying that it was beyond question that you should tax wage income more lightly than investment income.

我的意思是，这反映了一个完全不同的时代。

I mean, it speaks to a very different time.

那么，是什么样的思维方式让我们进入了如今这个局面——无论你怎么看待税法，结果都是相反的：收入越高，税率越低？

So what is the thinking that leads us into the the current world where no matter how you think about the code, it is the reverse income.

你知道吗，如果我卖出股票，所得会被征较轻的税，是的。

You know, if I sell stock, that gets taxed more lightly Yeah.

相比我在《纽约时报》工作所得的收入，股票收益的税率更低。

The income from that than the income I make from The New York Times.

是的。

Yeah.

有趣的是，当你深入研究时，会发现有五十种理由被用来论证为什么资本收益应该适用更低的税率。

And what's interesting is when you actually dive into it, there are 50 reasons of arguments that are given about why investment gains should be taxed at a lower rate.

比如，如果时间跨度很长，可能会有大量通胀，所以这些收益可能并非实际增长。

Things like there might be a lot of inflation if a lot of time has passed, so maybe it's not actual gains.

有些人说，降低税率有助于鼓励投资。

And some say it's good to encourage investments.

还有人说——我觉得这是最扭曲的逻辑——他们认为，现在人们因为不卖出股票就能避税，所以被鼓励长期持有。

And others say, and I find this the ultimate in distorted reasoning, they say, look, Right now, people are encouraged not to sell their stock because they can avoid tax by not selling.

我们必须降低税率，才能诱使他们卖出股票。

We have to lower the rates in order to lure them into selling.

因此，这是另一个理由，尽管他们应该直接对收益征税，那样人们就会出售了。

And so that is another justification even though they should just tax the gains, and then people would sell.

我认为他在这里使用的词‘公平’也很有意思。

It's also the word he uses here, I think, is interesting, fairness.

我参与这个辩论已经很久了。

I've been around this debate a long time.

我曾报道过

I've covered a

很多关于税收的辩论。

lot of tax debates.

我曾报道过关于资本利得税率的辩论。

I've covered debates on the capital gains tax rate.

深入过很多关于效率的争论，以及究竟在宏观层面把旋钮调到哪个位置才最恰当。

Get into a lot of arguments about efficiency and, you know, the the exactly right macroeconomic level to turn the dial to.

但作为一个普通人，真正体验过收入是如何运作的，我为自己的劳动所得付出了那么多努力。

And yet, as a human being, right, just experiencing the way income works, I work so hard for the income I make from my work.

我的意思是，你是个送货司机。

I mean, you're a delivery driver.

你是一名从事全科医疗工作的医生，或者是一名儿科医生，你工作得如此辛苦。

You're, you know, a doctor doing primary care work or a pediatrician, you're working so hard.

而竟然有人仅仅把钱放在指数基金里，就能享受低得多的税率，这太不公平了。

And the idea that that is taxed so much more higher than somebody making money by just letting money sit in an index fund.

对吧。

Right.

或者偶尔点一下按钮，把资金在不同的投资之间转移。

Or just occasionally clicking a button and move it between Right.

你知道的，不同的投资方式。

You know, different investments.

这里确实存在一个公平性问题。

There is a fairness question here.

这太残忍了。

It it's cruel.

我一直觉得这实际上相当残酷。

I always think it's, like, actually quite cruel.

让你的钱为你赚钱实在太容易了。

It is so easy to let your money make money for you.

我们竟然奖励这种行为，而不是奖励劳动，这在我看来太疯狂了。

The fact that we reward it over work is crazy to me.

我完全同意。

I totally agree.

你知道还有谁也同意吗？

And you know who else agreed?

里根在1986年的税改法案中就同意过。

Ronald Reagan in the '86 tax act.

他们确实曾短暂地实现了资本利得税率与普通收入税率的平等。

They actually succeeded in equalizing for a very brief period capital gains rates and ordinary income rates.

他们取消了对资本利得的优待，而我们今天绝对应该这么做。

They got rid of the preference for capital gains, which we should definitely do today.

现在，如果我们要讨论的话，有人可能会提出一个论点：是的，但当富人把他们的钱投资到经济中时，每个人都会从中受益。

Now one of the arguments that someone's gonna make if we're you know, is yes, but everybody is better off when rich people take their money and they invest in the economy.

这正是推动整个国家增长的原因。

That's what makes the whole country grow.

但问题是，这些资金很多并不是用于支持本地企业起步的种子资本。

But the thing is, much of this money is this is not seed capital to start local businesses.

这些钱是在二级股票市场上进行交易的。

This is money trading on a secondary stock market.

它们并没有流向任何企业。

It is not going to a business.

而是流向了其他股票持有者，推高了股价。

It's going to other owners of stocks driving up the shares.

因此，我不认同这种说法，即人们把钱投入股市就是在推动经济增长。

So I don't buy that argument that this is growing the economy when people are putting their money in stocks.

那让我问问与此相关的一个方面，那就是股票回购的兴起。

Well, let me ask about a related dimension of this, which is the rise of stock buybacks.

是的

Yeah.

还有股票运作方式的变化，嗯。

And both how that has changed the way stocks work Mhmm.

以及应税收入如何呈现或不呈现，是的。

And how that has changed the way taxable income Yeah.

表现出来或不表现出来。

Presents or does not present itself.

我们一直讲述一个关于富人不为其股票缴税的故事，因为他们的股票价值上涨。

We've been telling a story about wealthy people not paying taxes on their stock because their stock goes up in value.

他们不需要为这种收益缴税。

They don't have to pay tax on that gain.

然而，在1982年之前，由于公司只能通过股息分配利润，拥有大量股票意味着获得大量股息。

However, prior to 1982, because companies could only share their profits through dividends, what it meant to own a lot of stock was to get a lot of dividends.

在20世纪的大部分时间里，股息像工资一样按最高税率征税。

And for much of the twentieth century, dividends were taxed at the highest rates, just like salaries.

因此，这意味着持有大量股票的人会获得大量股息，并缴纳大量税款。

And so what that meant was that somebody who was sitting on a lot of stocks got a lot of dividends and paid a lot of taxes.

然而，1982年这项规则变更后，公司开始停止发放股息。

However, in 1982, after this rule change, companies switched from issuing dividends.

过去，超过70%的利润是通过股息分配的。

It used to be more than 70% of profits were distributed through dividends.

自这项变更实施以来，股息比例从未再超过20%。

Now it has never been as high as 20% since this change went into being.

其影响是，公司开始大量回购自己的股票。

The effect of it is that companies began to do lots and lots of buybacks of their stock.

这在多个层面上产生了巨大影响。

And this had a tremendous impact on multiple levels.

一是如果你看道琼斯指数，我书中有一张图表显示，1982年道琼斯指数约为3000点。

One is if you look at the Dow Jones, there's a chart in my book that shows that 1982, the Dow Jones was at about 3,000.

同时，在七十年代、六十年代、五十年代、四十年代、三十年代和二十年代也是如此。

It was also that in the seventies, the sixties, the fifties, the forties, the thirties, and the twenties.

当时大约是3000点。

It was around 3,000.

这是经过通货膨胀调整后的金额。

It's inflation adjusted amount.

现在则达到了四万五千左右，大概是这样。

Now it's like in the forty five thousand, something like that today.

对吧？

Right?

这个故事的一部分是股票回购，因为股票回购会推高股价。

And part of this story is stock buybacks because stock buybacks boost the value of stock.

但这个故事的另一个重要部分是，对于持股者来说，他们不再需要缴纳所得税，因为他们可以通过股价上涨来实现收益。

But another important part of the story is that it meant that for somebody who owned stock, they no longer had to get taxable income because they could enjoy their profits through the increased value of the stock.

一些股东会卖出他们的股票，因为这就是股票回购的性质。

Some shareholders would sell their stock because that's the nature of the stock buyback.

然而，许多这些股东是免税机构，因此他们并不担心为收益缴税。

However, a lot of these shareholders are tax exempt organizations, so they are not worrying about paying taxes on their proceeds.

因此，从联邦政府的收入角度来看，盈利公司过去通过股息征税为政府提供了大量收入。

So in terms of revenue to the federal government, profitable companies used to provide a lot of revenue to the federal government in the form of taxation of dividends.

而随着股票回购的兴起，这种情况现在不太可能再发生了。

And now with the rise of stock buybacks, that is much less likely to be the case.

所以我想回到这个问题：当这些巨额财富传承下去时，会发生什么？

So then I wanna go back to the question of what happens to these great fortunes when they get passed down.

从税收角度来看，你是如何看待这种情况的？

How is that treated for you from a taxation perspective?

比如，什么时候会

Like, when when does that

征税？

get taxed?

对。

Right.

所以，如果你在去世时继承了财产，那么对于继承增值财产的人来说，会有一个额外的优惠。

So if you receive it at death, then there is an extra benefit for people who receive appreciated property at death.

而且，这不仅意味着持有股票的人无需为这些收益缴税，当有人通过继承获得股票时，所有这些收益都会被清零。

And that is that not only are those gains not taxed to the person who held the stock, But when somebody receives the stock from inheritance, all the gains are wiped away.

我们称之为成本基础上调，或者

We call this step up in basis or

一个挺神秘的好名字。

the A nice inscrutable name.

是的。

Yes.

或者叫‘死亡天使漏洞’。

Or the angel of death loophole.

这个叫法更好。

That's better.

是的。

Yes.

而‘死亡天使漏洞’意味着我们会抹去这些收益，继承人将被视为自己购买了这项财产。

And, and the angel of death loophole says that we're gonna wash away the gains, and the recipient is gonna be treated as if they had purchased the property.

好的。

Okay.

我想放慢一点，因为我觉得这里的成本基础上调非常重要。

I wanna slow this down for a because I think step up basis here is really, really quite important.

假设有人做了一个非常成功的投资。

Let's say somebody made just great investment.

他们在NVIDIA还便宜的时候就买了。

They bought NVIDIA when it was cheap.

几年后，他们持有的股票价值达到了3000万美元。

And, you know, now some years later, they have $30,000,000 worth of it.

在一个情况下，他们卖掉了这些股票，因为他们想买一座豪宅之类的。

In one world, they sell that stock because, you know, they wanna buy a mansion or whatever it might be.

在另一种情况下，他们从未卖出这些股票。

In another world, they never sell the stock.

他们去世后，把这些股票留给了继承人

They pass away and give it

全部留给他们的孩子。

all to their kids.

是的。

Yeah.

这笔股票的税务处理有什么不同？

What is the difference in tax treatment for that stock?

这是同一笔股票。

It is the same tranche of stock.

对。

Yes.

所以在第一种情况下，他们需要就这些资本利得缴纳所得税。

So in the first scenario, they would pay income taxes on this, on the capital gains.

资本利得税率为20%，另外还要加收3.5%的附加税。

The capital gains is imposed at a 20% rate plus an additional three and a half percent extra tax on it.

因此，这些收益中的近四分之一——而这些几乎全是收益——都将被征收所得税。

So almost a quarter of it of those gains, and it's almost all gains, would be subject to income tax.

所以收益是你买入价和卖出价之间的差额。

And so the gains are the difference between what you bought it at and what you sold it at.

没错。

Absolutely.

但如果你持有这支股票不卖，而是去世后传给子女，就会有一个额外的好处。

If instead you hold on to that stock and you don't sell it and you pass it on at death to your kids, there is an extra bonus.

这个好处是，你不仅不用为这笔收益缴税，而且当他们继承财产时，会被视为以公允市场价值购入。

And that is that not only did you not pay taxes on that gain, but when they get the property, they are treated as if they had purchased it for its fair market value.

因此，他们现在被视为以三千万元买入，于是他们可以立即以三千万元卖出，完全不用缴纳任何资本利得税。

And so now they're treated as if they had bought it for $30,000,000, and so they can turn around and sell it for $30,000,000 and pay no gains at all.

这就是我们所说的成本基础上调，或者叫‘死亡天使漏洞’。

And that is this thing that we call step up in basis or the angel of death loophole.

所以这些收益就直接被抹去了？

So the gains are just wiped away?

完全抹去。

Wiped away.

这不用你操心。

Not for you to worry about.

这挺不错的。

That's pretty sweet.

是的。

Yes.

这是一笔非常划算的交易。

It's a very nice deal.

那你觉得杰夫·贝索斯会怎么样？

So what do you expect will happen with a Jeff Bezos then?

他能不承担多少税务影响就把价值一千五百亿美元的资产传给下一代吗？

Can he pass down a 150,000,000,000 or whatever it is without too much tax implication?

或者或者

Or or

他会在意这150亿吗？听起来已经是一大笔钱了。

is he gonna matter about 150 it seems like a lot of money.

这些人很可能会利用慈善工具作为其免税转移的重要手段。

Chances are what these people are gonna use are charitable vehicles as an important part of their tax free transfers.

问题是，这些慈善工具为捐赠者及其家庭带来了巨大的税收优惠，同时继续赋予他们对世界的巨大影响力。

And the problem is that these charitable vehicles afford these donors and their families enormous tax benefits while continuing to give them enormous power in the world.

而一些这类避税工具——它们是在生前设立的——并不仅仅用于慈善，还用于影响政治。

And some of these vehicles, these tax avoidance vehicles, they set them up during life, are not just for charity, but are to influence politics.

这是因为你可以把钱注入501(c)(4)组织，这是一种被允许参与政治活动的特定类型机构。

And that's because you can put money into a five zero one c four, a particular type of organization that is allowed to engage in political activity.

根据我们现行的规定，当你捐赠增值股票时，比如有人决定向他们的(c)(4)组织捐赠500亿美元，他们不仅能继续控制这些资产，还能免税规避赠与税和资本利得税。

And under our current rules, when you give your appreciated stock, let's say somebody decides to give $50,000,000,000 to their c four, they get to have continued control over the assets and a tax free path to avoid both gift taxes and capital gains taxes.

我们来谈谈你可能如何应对这些问题。

Let's talk about what you might do about some of this.

我认为现在人们经常听到的一个话题是财富税。

I think something people are hearing a lot about right now is a wealth tax.

是的。

Mhmm.

他们之所以听到这个提议，是因为今年加州 ballot 上有一项一次性 5% 的财富税。

One reason they're hearing about it is that there is a wealth tax on the ballot in California this year, a one time 5% wealth tax.

州政府和联邦政府在实施这类税制时运作方式略有不同。

These operate a little bit differently for states and and for the federal government.

那我们先从最受关注的加州方案说起。

So let's begin with the the one in the news, which is the California one.

它将如何运作？

How would it work?

你对它怎么看？

What do you think of it?

一个州在考虑推行这种税制时，需要考虑哪些因素？

What are the considerations for a state thinking about doing this?

财富税是解决这个问题的明显方案。

The wealth tax is an obvious answer to this problem.

它表明：我们目前有太多途径让人规避应税收入，而他们却积累了巨额财富。

It says, alright, we have a lot of ways that people are avoiding taxable income, and they have massive amounts of wealth.

让我们对他们的财富征税，实施5%的统一税率。

Let's tax their wealth, and we'll impose a flat tax 5%.

对各州来说，这个问题有几个方面，其中一个问题是人们可以轻易离开该州。

The problem for states is is sort of a few problems, but one of them is that people can easily leave states.

现在加州正试图通过实施这种追溯性的一次性税收来规避人们离开州的问题。

Now California is trying to get around this problem of people leaving the state by making it this sort of retroactive one time tax.

它已经追溯适用于此前居住在该州的人，我认为是从1月1日起生效。

It already applies retroactively to people who previously were living in the state, I think, as of January 1.

追溯性的一次性税收，显然不会是解决这个问题的永久方案。

A retroactive one time tax, I think, is not gonna be a permanent solution to the problem, obviously.

而且我认为它也无法阻止人们离开该州，因为一旦发生过一次，人们自然会预期它还会再次发生。

And nor do I think it's gonna prevent people from leaving the state because once there's a done once, there's every reason to expect it will be done again.

因此，我认为各州在增加财政收入方面确实面临困难，因为其他州正在通过低税率进行竞争。

So I do think there is a problem for states in their ability to raise revenue because other states are trying to compete on these low taxes.

所以在这种情况下，你就会看到佛罗里达州的罗恩·德桑蒂斯这样的情况，没错。

So you have in that case is something like Ron DeSantis in Florida Absolutely.

试图吸引。

Trying to attract.

我不久前认识了一个富人，他给我看了一个应用程序，记录他在佛罗里达州度过的天数，因为他其实很想住在纽约。

I met a rich person not long ago who showed me an app they have that counts the number of days they spend in Florida because they really wanna live in New York.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

但他们住在佛罗里达。

But they live in Florida.

我的意思是，他们确实每年在佛罗里达住够足够的天数，以避免缴纳纽约州的税，我觉得这很疯狂，因为我原以为富有就意味着不必为这种事操心。

I mean, they actually do live in Florida just enough days a year to not pay New York taxes, which I found crazy because I figured the whole point of being rich was to not have to worry about things like this.

你知道，我认为这就是为什么但

You know, I think this is why But

人们真的会这么做，我想。

people really do it, I guess.

是的。

Yes.

我觉得，富有却不得不住在自己不喜欢的地方，这简直太疯狂了。

I think I find it insane to be rich and to have to live somewhere that you don't wanna live.

但当然了，这就是为什么你是播客主持人，而我是法学教授。

But, of course, this is why you're a podcaster, and I'm a law professor.

对吧？

Right?

如果我们真的那么在乎钱，或许也会更在意税收问题。

If we really cared about money, maybe we'd really care about taxes.

因为对我来说，这看起来太荒谬了，但人们却经常这么做。

Because to me, it seems insane, but people do that all the time.

所以你觉得，财富税提案对加州有利，还是只会让德克萨斯州受益，吸引这些富人过去？

So do you think the wealth tax proposal would be good for California, or is it something that would just create a benefit for Texas because it'll pull in these rich people?

嗯，如果这只是一次性税收，很难说它会产生多大影响。

Well, it's hard to say that it's gonna make a huge difference when it's just a one time tax.

所以这必须是一个更持久的税，我认为它存在不少问题。

So it would have to actually be a more permanent tax, and I think it has a number of problems.

其中一个问题是人们会离开。

One of them is the problem of people leaving.

但我认为另一个非常重要的问题是，你如何获取一个人拥有多少财富的信息。

But I think another really significant problem is how you're going to gather the information of how much wealth the person has.

对于拥有上市公司股票的人，我们很容易知道他们持有多少股票，以及他们拥有多少资产。

It's very easy to think about somebody who owns publicly traded stock, and we know how much stock they own, and we know how much they have.

但有很多富人将财富以其他形式持有，而这些形式很难估值。

But there's are lots and lots of wealthy people that own their wealth in other forms that are very difficult to value.

现在你谈的是，州税务部门必须建立资源，让每个人向他们申报所有资产，并持续跟踪这些资产的估值。

And now you're talking about a state department of revenue having to build up the resources to have everybody tell them everything they own and keep up with valuation of it.

这会非常迅速地变得复杂。

It's it's gonna be quite fast.

你的艺术收藏值多少钱？

Your art collection worth?

没错。

Exactly.

你的加密货币NFT值多少钱？

Are your crypto NFTs worth?

当然。

Absolutely.

而且当你开始考虑合伙权益这类事物时，它们是极其复杂的结构，不可能让任何人去监控所有纳税人的这类资产。

And if also, when you start to look at things like partnership interests, these are highly complex structures, and it's impossible for somebody to be able to monitor that for all of the different taxpayers.

所以，要解决这个问题在实际操作中非常困难。

So it's a very, very difficult practical task to get around.

再说一遍，加利福尼亚州有一些解决方案，比如可以延迟缴税等等，但实施起来依然非常困难。

Again, California has some solution where you can defer paying taxes and all of these things, but it's just very difficult to do.

这并不像听起来那么简单。

It's not as easy as it sounds.

而且我认为，这在争取美国公众支持方面也是一个问题，因为我们对房产的价值缴税。

And I think that it's also a problem in terms of winning the support of the American public because we pay taxes on the value of our homes.

但一般来说，当我们考虑所有资产的价值时，我们知道在去世时会有遗产税，但这与要求人们每年披露其一生中拥有的每一件物品截然不同。

But generally, when we think of the value of all of our assets, we know that there's an estate tax at death, but that's very different than requiring people to disclose every single thing they own during their lives every year.

我认为，这会让公众感到侵犯隐私，不仅对那些受规则约束的人如此，对那些思考这些规则公平性的人也是如此。

That, I think, is going to feel invasive to the public, not just to the people who are subject to the rules, but to the other people who are thinking about the fairness of these rules.

但这个问题同样适用于联邦财富税，这或许让我们回到了这一点。

But but that question also applies to a federal wealth tax, which maybe brings us to that.

所以，我认为，这些提案如果非要与某个人联系起来，那很可能就是伊丽莎白·沃伦，她多年来一直提出过多项此类方案。

So, you know, I think to the extent these proposals are associated with anybody, it's probably Elizabeth Warren who has had a number of them over the years.

但也存在各种形式的全国性财富税提案。

But there are proposals for different forms of national wealth tax.

你知道的吗？

You know?

比如，每年按你财富的百分之二征收，年复一年。

Something like it could be two percentage points of your wealth every year, year on year.

你怎么

How do you

想想这个问题？

think about this?

是的。

Yeah.

所以在联邦层面，我认为你可以避免人们迁移的问题。

So in the federal level, you get to avoid the problem, I think, of people moving.

有时候人们会说，哦，不会吧。

Sometimes people say, oh, no.

人们会离开美国。

People are gonna leave The United States.

要摆脱美国的税收管辖是非常困难的。

It's it's very hard to leave the tax clutches of The United States.

而且，现在这个时代，很少有人愿意定期放弃美国公民身份，去成为其他国家的公民。

And, also, this is not an age in which people a lot of people wanna regularly give up their US citizenship and become a citizen in some other country.

比如迪拜之类的。

Dubai or whatever.

没错。

Exactly.

所以人们声称这是

So people claim that's

目前看起来不太好。

looks bad at the moment.

是的。

Yes.

没错。

Exactly.

迪拜移民，英国富人有时会这么做，我认为最近的战争已经让这种做法受到质疑。

Dubai move, which people in The UK the rich in The UK sometimes do and I think has been called into question by the recent, war.

是的。

Yes.

没错。

Exactly.

所以我认为，人们经常威胁说这种情况会发生。

And so I think that's something that people threaten will happen.

我不认为这种情况会在这里发生。

I don't think that would happen here.

但这里更大的问题是宪法问题。

But the bigger problem here is the constitutional issue.

我们的联邦宪法基本上对直接税和间接税有特殊规定，而财富税会引发宪法问题，因为我们宪法对直接税有限制。

So, our federal constitution basically has these special rules about direct taxes and indirect taxes, and wealth taxes raise constitutional issues, it's hard because we have a limitation in our constitution on direct taxes.

问题是，考虑到我们当前的最高法院，我们有充分理由认为，这个最高法院可能会判定财富税违宪，而这种税制很可能无法存活。

And the problem is that given our current Supreme Court, we have every reason to think that this supreme court might find a wealth tax unconstitutional, which it could very easily not survive.

因此，所有这些政治努力都将白费。

So all of that political effort will have been spent for nothing.

而且这似乎并不是一个明智的做法，尤其是在当今世界，富人能够通过各种避税途径轻易避税，而我们却未能对他们的投资收益和遗产征税。

And it just seems like not a smart way to go, particularly in today's world where the wealthy are able to avoid taxes so easily through this sort of highway of alternatives of tax avoidance because of our failure to tax their investment gains and their inheritances.

所以我认为，还有更多更简单的路径可以遵循。

So I think there's there's a lot more easier paths to follow.

它不会像财富税那样立即见效，但更有可能产生持久效果。

It's not gonna be as immediately effective as a wealth tax, but it's more likely to be permanently effective.

那你会怎么做呢？

So then what what would you do?

是的。

Yeah.

所以我认为应该这样做：首先，我们必须关注投资收益。

So what I think should happen is, first of all, we have to look at investment gains.

而我们投资收益的问题在于，除非持有人出售资产，否则永远不会对其征税。

And the problem with our investment gains is that they are never taxed to the person who owns it unless they sell the property.

然而，在加拿大，他们有更广泛的规定。

However, in Canada, they have a much broader rule.

这项规定是：每当个人转让资产时——不仅限于出售，还包括赠与或死亡时——都会计算此时的收益，该人必须就这些收益缴税。

And that rule is that whenever the person transfers the property, not just by sale, but also by gift or at death, the gains at that time will be tallied, and the person will have to pay tax on that gain.

这样，收益就会由获得它们的人缴税，而不是推迟到未来可能永远不会到来的时刻。

And that way, gains are taxed to the person who earned them rather than kicking it down the road to some time in the future that may never come.

如果让我来制定规则，我会说我们应该消除资本利得与普通收入之间的区别，对持有期间的通胀进行调整，除此之外，对这些收益适用普通收入税率。

I if I could write the rules, I would say that we've that we should eliminate the distinction between capital gains and ordinary income and give them an inflation adjustment to reflect that inflation holding, and other than that, impose ordinary income rates on that gain.

此外，我们需要解决继承问题。

In addition, we need to address inheritances.

人们正在以完全免税的方式获得巨额财富。

So people are receiving massive amounts of wealth entirely tax free.

如果你走在街上捡到100美元，你有义务向联邦政府申报。

If you were to walk down the street and find a $100, you would be expected to report that to the federal government.

然而，如果有人送你1000亿美元，你根本不需要向任何人报告。

However, if someone were to give you $100,000,000,000, you literally don't have to tell anyone.

你的报税表上甚至没有一行可以申报，因为这被视为完全是你的私事。

There's not even a line on your tax return to let anyone know because that is seen as entirely your business.

我们不应当让这种情况继续存在。

And we should not have that be the case.

我们应该废除遗产税，因为它根本起不到任何作用。

We should get rid of the estate tax, which isn't doing anything.

确实。

True.

你可以直接把一千亿美元送给人，却不需要向任何人申报吗？

You could just hand somebody a $100,000,000,000, and you don't have to report it to anybody?

送钱的人本应申报赠与税申报表。

The person who hands it is supposed to report a gift tax return.

对吧？

Right?

但如果这笔钱被放入信托，信托增值后从信托中分配出来。

But if it's been put into a trust, the trust has grown, it's distributed from the trust.

接收财产的人可能因复杂的税务规则而产生一些穿透性收益，对吧？

The person receiving the property may have some flow through gains through complicated tax rules, right?

但通过赠与、继承或人寿保险获得财产时。

But the receipt of property by gift, inheritance, or life insurance.

顺便说一句，人寿保险是超级富豪传承财富的首选工具。

And by the way, life insurance is the favorite vehicle of the super wealthy to pass their wealth.

当他们将其转化为人寿保险政策时，突然间所有金额在任何地方都变得免税了。

When they convert it into a life insurance policy, it all of a sudden becomes nontaxable everywhere.

这些属于免税项目，意味着你甚至不需要申报。

Those are subject to exclusions, meaning you don't have to even report them.

你刚才描述的方式让我明白了一点：一方面有税收制度的设计，另一方面则是执行税收设计的意愿，也就是说，如果你设想你所提到的那种改革，你或许能制定出来，但你必须真正希望它生效，从而开始关闭所有这些其他漏洞，并且持续保持关闭状态。

You know, one thing that the way you just described that, I think, makes clear is that there's the level of tax design, and then the there's the level of the will to enforce tax design, which is to say that if you imagine the kind of reform you're talking about, you could make it, but then you would have to actually want it to work, such that you began shutting all this other stuff down and keeping it shut down.

对吧？

Right?

比如你提到的那些人寿保险的漏洞。

Like, life insurance loopholes you're talking about.

但你是如何思考这两个层面的呢？

But how do you think about these two levels?

对吧？

Right?

一方面有税收制度的设计，另一方面则是税法本身非常复杂。

There's a level of tax design and then the level of the tax code is complex.

人们并不了解其中发生了什么。

People don't know what's happening in it.

但那些了解内情的人有非常强烈的动机去支持那些允许他们继续利用这些漏洞的政客，或惩罚那些试图关闭这些漏洞的政客。

And but the people who do know what's happening in it have a very, very, very strong incentive to support politicians who will allow them to keep using these loopholes or to punish politicians who try to close them.

是的。

Yeah.

让我先坦白一下。

So let me start by confessing.

我天性乐观，所以你可能需要对我的所有说法打点折扣。

I am an optimist by nature, So, you may need to take everything I say with a grain of salt.

然而，我认为这种富有的美国人无需缴税的体系之所以出现，是因为我们独特的历史以及遗产税的特定脆弱性。

However, I think that this system of nonpayment by wealthy Americans came about because of our particular history and particular vulnerabilities of the estate tax.

我们曾经有一个体系，其中所得税并不完善，遗产税本应作为补充，但在20世纪90年代初对遗产税的攻击如此有效，以至于就连民主党人都不敢采取任何措施关闭这些漏洞，因为许多美国人认为这是一种不公平的双重死亡税。

So, we had a system where the income tax was incomplete, the estate tax was supposed to be a backup, the assault on the estate tax in the early 1990s was so effective that even Democrats were afraid to do anything to close the loopholes because so many Americans saw it as an unfair double death tax.

我认为，如果我们能拥有一个更清晰的体系——比如取消遗产税，只保留所得税系统，那么要蒙蔽公众就困难得多了。

I think if we had a cleaner system that we could easily have, we get rid of the estate tax, we have an income tax system, it gets a lot harder to pull the wool over the eyes of the public.

所以我不认为富人总能控制一切，总能得到他们想要的东西。

So I don't think it's the case that rich people can always control, always get what they want.

我认为我们现在正处在一个前所未有的压力时期，这种状况正在发生。

I think that we are living in a moment now where there's more pressure than ever for this to happen.

这个加州财富税，对吧？它的出现是因为公众普遍意识到，我们有一大批超级富有的人掌控着国家大部分财富，比自1920年代以来任何时期都多。

This California wealth tax, right, this is happening because the public has become broadly aware that we've got a lot of super rich people that control massive amounts of the country's wealth, more than they've held, I think, since the 1920s.

相当可观的份额。

Significant amount.

我认为目前美国最富有的1%人群掌握了全国31.7%到32%的财富。

I think it's currently 31.7, 32% of the country's wealth is held by the richest 1% of Americans.

与此同时，这些人最近似乎都没有为自己赢得什么荣耀。

And at the same time, none of them seem to be wrapping themselves in glory these days.

对吧？

Right?

如果我们回溯二十年，我们的富人曾做过许多了不起的事情。

If we go back twenty years, we had all sorts of amazing things being done by our rich people.

在21世纪初出版了一本名为《慈善资本主义》的书，副标题是‘富人如何拯救世界’。

And there was a book that came out in the early two thousands that was called Philanthrocapitalism, and the subtitle was how the rich can save the world.

当时这并不被认为是疯狂的。

And this was not seen as insane.

你能想象今天会有一本书叫‘富人如何拯救世界’吗？

Can you imagine a book today, how the rich can save the world?

我从事的是专业意见行业。

I I'm in the professional opinion business.

我可以想象任何事情。

I can imagine anything.

是的。

Yeah.

但当时人们竟然会认为这种观点能被公众接受——而它确实在那个时代被接受了。

But the idea that someone would think that this would land with the public, which it did in that era.

对吧？

Right?

超级富豪们能做很多事情。

The super rich, they are they are they can do so many things.

我们应该把社会的所有问题都交给他们。

We should hand over all of society's problems to them.

我的意思是，今天很多人会觉得这种想法可笑。

I mean, I think a lot of people would find that laughable today.

我认为这个评论所指的是一些人想对富人征税，是因为他们想惩罚富人。

I think something that comment is getting at is sometimes people wanna tax the rich because they wanna punish them.

这就像他们

It's It like they

不喜欢富人。

don't like the rich.

他们现在确实不喜欢富人。

They definitely don't like the rich right now.

对吧？

Right?

我非常理解你所提出的观点。

I'm very sympathetic to the the argument you're making.

但另一方面，这会把很多事情牵扯到道德评判上，而我的看法是，无论谢尔盖·布林处于‘不作恶’的时代，还是完全认同的时期，他都应该为那笔财富缴税。

And on the other hand, that then sort of winds a lot of things up in moral judgment, when sort of my view is that Sergey Brin should have to pay taxes on that wealth no matter if he's in the don't be evil era or in the I totally agree.

时代。

Era.

我完全同意。

I completely agree.

我认为，把焦点放在富人是坏人、因此我们应该对他们征税上，是个巨大的错误。

I think it is a big mistake to focus on rich people are bad, and therefore, we should be imposing taxes.

因为我认为这很糟糕的原因是，当我们把讨论转向富人是好是坏时，我们就忽略了最重要的一点：最富有的美国人已经被排除在我们的税收体系之外。

Because the reason I think it's bad is because when we move the conversation to whether rich people are good or bad, we are not focusing on the fact that the richest Americans have been written out of our tax system.

这就像我们有一个制度，规定住在宾夕法尼亚州的人不用缴税。

It's as if we had a system that said people who live in Pennsylvania don't have to pay tax.

对吧？

Right?

我们不应该进行这样的讨论，说宾夕法尼亚州的一些人是好人。

We shouldn't have a discussion that says, well, some of the people in Pennsylvania are good.

也许他们不缴税也没关系。

Maybe it's okay they don't pay tax.

对吧？

Right?

从原则上看，这是错误的。

It's wrong as a matter of principle.

这是错误的，因为我们需要他们的钱。

It's wrong because we need their money.

从公平的角度看，这是错误的。

It's wrong as a matter of fairness.

这在很多方面都是错误的。

It is wrong for so many reasons.

我认为主要问题回到你之前的问题，即公众被误导，以为富人缴纳的税比实际要多。

And I think the big problem is goes back to your earlier question, which is that the public is misled into thinking the wealthy are paying more taxes than they are.

这1%的人缴纳了40%的税，对吧？但大多数公众并不知道，最富有的美国人通过将应税收入规避掉来逃税。

With this 1% paying 40%, right, most of the public doesn't know that the wealthiest Americans are able to avoid taxes by paying taxable income.

如果他们知道了，就不会希望维持这样的制度。

And if they knew, they wouldn't want that system.

我所听到的这些，和我认识的那些参与设计财富税的人告诉我的一致，但我感到非常沮丧，因为这看起来本应该是可以实现的。

I find what you're telling me here to both track what people I know who have worked on crafting wealth taxes tell me, but but I find very frustrating, which is that it seems like it should be possible.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但你越深入研究，就会发现它越困难，不仅在宪法层面是一个问题，而且持续评估资产价值、担心人们将资产转移到更难估值的类别中，也成了难题。

And the more you get into it, the harder it becomes, both constitutionally, which is one dimension of it, but the the valuing and the continuous valuing and the worrying about people moving things into harder to value assets becomes a problem.

而且我

And I

不知道。

don't know.

自从我开始了解税收以来，就一直希望实行财富税。

I've wanted there to be a wealth tax as long as I've been aware of taxation.

如果我们无法实施类似措施，我认为我们正在失去的东西，值得明确指出的是：财富创造权力。

And the thing that I feel we're losing if we can't do something like it, which I just think is worth naming, is that wealth creates power.

它会带来巨大的权力。

It creates a tremendous amount of power.

在我们所处的这个时代，富人并不一定对利用财富施加影响力感到羞怯。

And we're operating in this era when it's not that the rich were necessarily the super rich so shy about using their wealth to to wield power.

我的意思是，你提到了由18个最富有家族大力资助的反遗产税运动，但你现在看到像埃隆·马斯克这样的人直接参与的程度，确实如此。

I mean, you mentioned the anti estate tax campaign that was heavily funded by 18 of the richest families, But the level of, like, direct engagement that you're seeing now from people like Elon Musk Yeah.

他们正在切实推动一种长期存在的担忧：如果财富过度集中，就会导致政治权力的不可控集中，没错。

Like, they are really making the long running fear that if you have enormous wealth concentrations of wealth, you will have, like, unmanageable concentrations of political power Mhmm.

显而易见。

Manifest.

你可以设计一套税收制度，我们稍后会讨论，最终对这些财富征税。

And you can design, and and presumably, we'll we'll talk about it, a tax code, you know, that taxes this money eventually.

但它并没有解决政治权力的问题，而很多人原本希望税收制度能解决这个问题。

But it it doesn't solve the political power question in a way that I think a lot of people want to use a tax code to do so.

我很想知道你是怎么看待这个问题的。

And I'm I'm curious how you think about that.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为这是一个真正的问题，也是一个真正的担忧。

I think it's a real problem, and it's a real concern.

我的意思是，掌控巨额财富的人在我们的社会中拥有巨大的权力。

I mean, people controlling massive amounts of wealth have tremendous power in our society.

因此，我理解在某种理想化的世界里，足够强大的财富税能够显著削减最富有人群的财富，使其降至不再拥有这种权力的水平。

And so and I understand that in some fantasy world, a powerful enough wealth tax will be enacted to make a sufficient enough dent in the wealth of the wealthiest people where it is brought down to a level where they no longer have this power.

然而，就我所见，这看起来就像一个幻想世界。

However, from where I sit, that just looks like a fantasy world.

这不会发生。

That's not gonna happen.

它不会产生足够的影响。

It's not gonna be significant enough.

公众一般不会接受这一点。

The public isn't gonna buy it generally.

我认为公众一般不会接受的原因之一，是我们之前提到过的一点：如果这种税是专门针对最富有的人，仿佛我们必须惩罚他们，我认为全国上下并不都认同这种观点。

And I think one of the reasons the public isn't gonna buy it generally is because of something we talked about earlier, which is that to the extent it is a special tax focused on the richest people, like we have to punish the richest people, I don't think everybody in the country agrees with that.

很多国人认为，那些积累财富的人是因为他们做出了了不起的成就。

A lot of people in the country think that people who have acquired their wealth have done so because they've done great things.

他们创办了优秀的企业，有时确实如此。

They've started great companies, and sometimes they have.

有时他们确实做出了伟大的贡献。

Sometimes they have done great things.

所以，这种做法过于一概而论了。

And so, it paints too broad a brush.

问题在于，我们必须生活在真实的世界上。

The problem with it is that we have to live in the world that we actually live in.

而在我们真实所处的世界里，我不认为这会是一个能实现该目标的解决方案。

And in the world we actually live in, I don't see that as being a solution that's gonna deliver that result.

我认为，确保最富有的人缴税还有另一个原因，那就是人们会效仿他人的行为。

I think there's also another dimension to why you should want to make sure the richest people are paying taxes, and that is that people do what other people do.

是的。

Yes.

我在读你的书并为这次对话做准备时，一直在思考这个问题。

I was thinking about this while reading your book and and preparing for this.

我缴税。

I pay taxes.

我不介意缴税。

I don't mind paying taxes.

我认为这是生活在社会中的一部分。

I think that is part of living in a society.

生活在美国对我而言很好。

Living in America has been good to me.

那些比我更有钱的人不缴税，这让我很生气。

It does piss me off that people above me are not paying taxes.

是的。

Yeah.

我有时听到的是，他们在谈论那些奇怪的避税策略，我不是在说那些亿万富翁，而是那些花更多时间研究逃税的人。

And what I hear sometimes, I'm talking about their weird strategies, and I'm not talking about set to billionaires here, just, you know, people who spend more time on tax avoidance.

你会想，哎，我是不是个傻瓜？

You think, oh, like, am I being a sucker?

是的。

Yeah.

而在这些极高收入阶层中，最富有的人让下面的富人觉得自己是傻瓜，而人们都不想当傻瓜。

And the fact that at these very high levels, the very richest are making the rich people right underneath them feel like suckers, people don't wanna be suckers.

他们不想觉得别人占了便宜，而自己却没有。

They don't wanna feel that other people are getting a deal they're not getting.

是的。

Yeah.

一方面，你可能会想，如果这种现象能促使更多富人倡导更公平的税收制度就好了，但事实似乎并非如此，它并没有阻止上面的人继续这样做。

Now on one hand, you might think it would be good if this made more rich people, you know, advocate for a better tax system, which it doesn't seem to have done to to shut down the ability of people above them to do this.

但我确实认为这非常具有腐蚀性，我完全同意。

But I do think that it's very corrosive I totally agree.

社会凝聚力，会让人感到有人得到了远比你更好的待遇。

Social solidarity, to have this sense that there are people out there getting a way better deal than you are.

我再同意不过了。

I couldn't agree more.

这就是为什么我认为很多问题都与人们感受到你之前提到的这一点有关。

And that's why I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that people feel like this point that you made before.

普通民众总是会吃亏。

Well, the regular people are always gonna lose out.

富人总是能如愿以偿。

The rich are always gonna have their way.

事情总是对他们有利。

It's always gonna be to their advantage.

但情况并不总是如此。

But that is not always the case.

因此，我认为回顾历史上的不同时期非常重要。

And that's why I think it's important to think back in history to different times.

我认为特别有趣的一个时期是1986年的税制改革法案。

So one of the times I think is particularly interesting is the tax reform act of 1986.

那是我们最后一次真正实现有意义的税制改革。

That is the last time that we actually have had any really meaningful reform in the tax system.

那是里根总统任内发生的，虽然有些出人意料，但它采纳了两党都曾支持的原则。

It was under President Reagan, was kind of surprising, but it adopted principles that had been around under both parties.

当我们谈到高收入者难以避税时，这正是1986年改革所带来的变化。

And what it did when we talk about high income earners and the inability of high income earners to avoid taxes, that is because of changes that occurred in 1986.

在1986年之前，我们有一个蓬勃发展的避税产业。

Prior to 1986, we had a flourishing tax shelter business.

当时，像高薪外科医生这样的高收入者根本不用为收入缴税，因为他们可以通过投资避税工具，用各种合法手段抵消全部收入。

And high paid your high paid surgeon would have not paid taxes on their income because they would have been able to do their invest in tax shelters and offset all of their income bylaws.

关于二战后中期极高的所得税税率。

About the very high mid century World War two post World War two income tax rates.

但我认为这很重要，因为到1986年时，这些税率在图表上看起来并不像实际那么高。

But I think this is important because some of these were not actually as real by 1986 as you look on a chart.

没错。

Exactly.

所以你虽然有很高的税率，但高收入者却大规模避税。

So you had these high rates, but you had massive avoidance by high income earners.

1986年的法案做了一件非常有趣的事，我认为我们今天也该这么做，那就是通过取消这些避税工具来拓宽税基。

And the 1986 act did something very interesting, and I think something that we should be doing today, which is it broadened the base by getting rid of those tax shelters.

他们成功地消除了这些避税工具，以至于今天我们已经不再有它们了。

And they so effectively got rid of those tax shelters that we don't have them today.

对吧？

Right?

我们现在的高收入人群，那些高薪人士，都在缴纳大量的税款。

Our high income people, people with lots of salaries, they are paying lots of taxes.

他们几乎没有理由或途径来避税了。

There's really very little reason or ways for them to avoid taxes.

他们是一个政治上很有影响力的群体。

And they were a politically powerful group.

所以，如果你有真正关心并推动这件事的人，这是可以实现的。

So it can happen if you have people that really care about making it happen.

这并不是不可能做到的。

It's not like it's impossible to make happen.

我认为，这才是唯一的出路。

And I think that that is the only way to go.

我们国家唯一的前进方向，是找到一种公平的税收制度。

Our only way forward as a country is if we figure out how to have a fair tax system.

我认为，这种紧迫性不仅是道德上的要求，也是财政上的必要，因为如今我们的国家债务如此庞大，利息支出已成为仅次于社会保障和医疗保险的第三大开支。

And I think that imperative, that moral imperative is also a financial imperative because right now, our national debt is so great that interest payments on the national debt are the third highest expense after Social Security and Medicare.

今年我们仅用于偿还债务的支出就高达一万亿美元，超过了军费开支。

We are spending a trillion dollars just to carry the debt this year, more than we're spending in the military.

你知道，这是不可持续的。

And, you know, that is not sustainable.

所以我们必须找到一种方法，让所有人都纳入税收体系。

So we're gonna have to find a way to bring everybody into the tax system.

接下来我会提出最后一个问题。

And then I'll ask our final question.

您能为观众推荐三本书吗？

What are three books you recommend to the audience?

第一本书是蒂姆·吴的《抽取时代》。

The first book is The Age of Extraction by Tim Wu.

这是一本极佳的书，探讨了我们许多曾经为世界带来巨大福祉的公司，如今却不再创造财富，而是进行财富掠夺。

This is a fantastic book that talks about how many of our companies that used to do a lot of good for the world are now rather than producing wealth, they are doing wealth extraction.

这对我们所有人来说都不是好事。

And that's not good for any of us.

这与对个人和企业征税的问题密切相关。

And it's relevant for these issues of taxing individuals and taxing companies.

另一本是加里·格尔斯特尔的《新自由主义秩序的兴衰》的兴衰。

The other is the book, The Rise and Fall of the Neoliberal Order by Gary Gerstle.

我喜欢这个。

And I like this.

所有往期节目的嘉宾。

All past guests of the show.

蒂姆·吴，加里，是的。

Tim Wu, Gary Yeah.

我非常喜欢是的。

I love yeah.

这些书都很棒。

These are great books.

好的。

Okay.

这是一本很棒的书。

That is a fantastic book.

我要说，书名听起来有点吓人，但书本身非常易读。

And I will say that the title is a bit daunting, but the book itself is so readable.

它提出了一个极其重要的观点：过去，这个国家对政府与市场角色有着一种截然不同的看法。

And it makes this incredibly important point that the country used to have one vision of the role of government versus markets.

而如今，随着新自由主义的兴起，这种观点已转变为一切应让市场自由运行。

And now we through the rise of neoliberalism, it now switched to this thing of it's all about let the market run free.

但关键在于，这生动地展现了可能出现的剧烈转变。

But the point is that it is a fantastic illustration of the swings that can occur.

正如我们在最近几年清晰看到的那样，钟摆总是会向两个方向摆动。

And pendulums swing both ways as we have seen loud and clear in recent years.

我认为，这真是一个很好的提醒：当人们为当下的种种问题感到绝望时，恰恰也是钟摆可能回摆、更好制度得以确立的契机。

And I think it's a really good reminder that when people despair of all of the problems of the day, there is an opportunity for pendulums to swing back and for better systems to take hold.

最后一本书是小说《十字路口》，作者是乔纳森·弗兰岑。

And the last book is a book of fiction, the book Crossroads by Jonathan Franzen.

小说在任何时候都是绝佳的避风港，尤其在当下，它让我们得以探索超越我们现实世界的其他可能性。

Fiction at any time and particularly in these times is just a a fantastic place to live to explore other things than the world that we're living in.

我认为，乔纳森·弗兰岑在呈现人物内心心理戏剧方面，几乎胜过我所知的任何人。

And I'd say Jonathan Franzen, better than almost anyone I know, presents people's internal psychological dramas.